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  #8261  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2020, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by DenverInfill View Post
Interesting information in BusinessDen for why this was delayed so long.

https://businessden.com/2020/02/06/e...oving-forward/
Quote:
Kane said this week that the project was delayed in part due to a Rule 106 challenge.

Court records show that Edbrooke Lofts Condominium Association and West End Lofts Condominium Association, along with the Lower Downtown Neighborhood Association, filed a lawsuit asking a court to overturn the design review commission’s 2016 approval, with conditions, of the project’s mass, form and context.

The associations argued in their lawsuit the project would “create a short dead-end alley that is unsafe to residents and others nearby … and is contrary to good urban design.” A district court judge ruled against the associations, but they appealed. The litigation wrapped up last summer.
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  #8262  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2020, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by CherryCreek View Post
The reality is that aesthetics matter, and developers coming into a cool historic neighborhood and taking a dump on it with poorly conceived/designed/built turds fans the flames of NIMBYism and makes it hard to win the argument for greater density and for making more urban housing available to more people.


People wanting into an area can complain all they want about restrictions on growth and/or on density, but it's current residents - particular property owners who are much more likely to vote, give money to politicians, and be active in politics who will have sway with public officials. Because of some of some of the abortions built in the The Tennyson corridor, avoiding that elsewhere has become somewhat of rallying cry and likely has grown support for NIMBYism policies.
Excellent comment.

FunctionForm makes a good observation also. That corner is cold and has zero pedestrian appeal.

The City spent a lot of money redoing the street and the street deserves better.

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  #8263  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2020, 5:59 PM
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Hello Milo




Images courtesy Gables Residential via RentCafe

According to the DBJ this project was recently completed.
Quote:
The 319-unit Milo Apartments is now open and features a mix of studio, one-, two- and three-bedroom apartments across two buildings. It's the second apartment building to open at 9+CO after 275 units at Theo opened in 2018.
This is a Gables project which has also built apartments in Cherry Creek.
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  #8264  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2020, 6:49 PM
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Sheridan Station TOD

According to the Trailbreak Partners website.
Quote:
Project Description

A continuation of West Line Village, Trailbreak Partners acquired an additional two acres of land, adjacent to the east. Currently under development, West Line Village Apartments will be a 280-unit class “A” apartment community that continues to provide a diverse array of housing options just west of downtown Denver, next to the Sheridan Station light rail station.
West Line Village Apartments




Images courtesy Trailbreak Partners

I can't recall who but somebody among us, either lives at the West Line Village Townhomes or in that direction?



WEST LINE VILLAGE
Quote:
STARTING AT $429K

West Line Village is an energetic, transit-oriented community of Lakewood townhomes. Anchored between the Rockies and the city, where downtown Denver is just five stops away, it’s a modern haven that has something to offer urban dwellers and outdoor enthusiasts alike. At West Line Village, you can relax and recharge, entertain, and explore all that Colorado has to offer.



Images courtesy of West Line Village
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  #8265  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2020, 10:20 PM
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What is affordable housing anyway?

It literally depends on who you ask. There's 'designated' affordable housing and then there's more affordable market-rate housing which could have different price points and demographic appeal. Creating more affordable housing is a topic I'm always interested in.

The Fast Track to more affordable housing

By the end of the year downtown will have six rail corridors plus the B Line. All these corridors beckon for TOD of some type and density and all will contribute closer-in living opportunities of varying affordability.

Medium to high density shovel-ready TOD

1) Elitch Gardens Station 2) 38th and Blake Station 3) Central Park Station 4) 10th & Osage and Alameda Stations 5) Broadway/I-25 Station 6) Auraria West Station (yes, student housing is important) and 7) Belleview Station

There's a number of stations where significant TOD is still in planning or starting to percolate. They would include: 8) Federal-Decatur Station 9) 41st and Fox Station 10) National Western Station

Low to medium density including urban-suburban TOD

1) University Station 2) Colorado Station 3) Evans Station 4) Knox, Perry and Sheridan Stations 5) Pecos Junction Station 6) Westminster Station

When I rode the B Line it was a quick trip up to Westminster Station. While there may be some logistical issues that is one nice station. The Denver Urban Land Conservancy recently assembled 5.5 acres for a mixed-use development. My assumption is that as the 'land developer' ULC hopes to sell sites for various uses including market rate apartments and thereby generate 'profit' to enable them to build specific 'designated' affordable units.

The West Line Village @ Sheridan Station post above demonstrates how more affordable options of various densities and types can be built nearby to rail stations.
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  #8266  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2020, 3:28 PM
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There are a substantial number of hotel developments in the pipeline. BusinessDen compiled an interesting list of 10 major projects expected to break ground this year

1). 28-story Convention Center Marriott expected to break ground in Q2

2). 13-story Fairfield Inn and Townplace Suites expected to break ground in Q2

3). WTC hotel expected to break ground in Q2

4). 18-story Stonebridge Hotel DTC expected to break ground in Q1

5). 20-story Kimpton Hotel DTC expected to break ground in Q2

6). 5-story Sonder Hotel LoHi expected to break ground in Q4

7). 5-story Gaylord Hotel (City Park West) expected to break ground in Q2

8). Arapahoe Square hostel

9). 5-story Hotel Perenne (LoHi) expected to break ground in Q2

10). 5-story Cabarita House hostel in Five Points expected to break ground in the first half of 2020

Other hotel projects with a less certain time table include the Block 162 hotel, 14-story hotel at 270 14th Street, 8-story hotel at 1655 Blake Street, 12-story hotel at 3660 Brighton Boulevard, 12-story hotel at 370 S. Garfield, and a hotel at 2099 Chestnut

https://businessden.com/2020/01/06/1...enver-in-2020/
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  #8267  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2020, 3:40 PM
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I certainly agree that good urbanism requires good urban design. Without it, we're just repeating the mistakes of the Urban Renewal / Brutalism era, sowing the seeds of future NIMBYism in the same way that run amok historic preservation sows the seeds of future YIMBYism. And yes, I worry that this is lost on much of the YIMBY movement.

We've talked about urban design a thousand times, but maybe not for a few years. We get hung up on (expensive) materials, but what we really need is ground floor variation. The facade should change to look like a different building at least every 50 feet, and adjacent facades shouldn't be exactly identical (similar is fine). I think we'd have a better result if we strictly applied that one rule, and forgot about most others.
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  #8268  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2020, 5:47 PM
laniroj laniroj is offline
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People in every city in the world shout "we're not XYZ city"...Saying none of that matters because "Denver isn't coastal" is an abortion of rational thought, made because sticking one's head in the sand is easier than admitting the long-accepted way we've done things causes massive structural problems.
Just returning from a long vacation and catching up. Cirrus, this entire post is pure gold. Can you to attend my rezoning hearings? Or maybe you just run for public office?

Seriously though, the thoughts in this post nail it. It doesn't matter if we have open land here or there, it's moot if folks don't want to live there more than somewhere else. When folks say "we have room for growth there, don't come here", they are missing the point. Unfortunately, many well intentioned people (not nimbys, they are rotten to the core) who want to protect neighborhoods from displacement think that preventing development in their neighborhood will somehow protect the existing make-up when the truth is that effort is only a short stall. The most vulnerable WILL be displaced under the existing status quo.

Thanks Cirrus, for putting into words what many people think but aren't eloquent enough to describe.
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  #8269  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2020, 6:03 PM
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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post

Places like 41st and Fox Station, Pecos Junction Station, Westminster Station, Clear Creek & Federal Station, 60th and Sheridan Station have plenty of land and opportunity to build affordable housing and this is just one of six corridors.

The amount of land available in close-in neighborhoods like RiNo, Elyria-Swansea-Globeville, Sunnyside, Sun Valley(Mile High), Gates, Santa Fe Yards, and other areas is more than enough for many decades of added density and more affordable options.
TakeFive - You, and some others, consistently make the argument that we have enough land - in fact, you say we have more than enough. If that is true, and assuming all of that land has adequate zoning as your statement implies, then why do we still have a housing crisis? Or do you not think we have a housing crisis? If you don't, then please educate yourself with the number of households nationwide who are housing cost burdened - some people say that means you pay more than 30% of your gross income to housing, but what it really means, the personal side of that story, is you foregoe healthcare or groceries so that you can simply have a roof over your head. Under your very own set of 'facts' (ie we have enough land to accommodate all the current and future growth), we shouldn't have a housing crisis and yet, we do. So what gives?

Cirrus' point is spot on and it applies to just about every neighborhood everywhere, in Denver's center, in Denver's outter rings, and in the suburbs and exurbs - not just Curtis Park. Pretty much every neighborhood is nimby, broadly speaking - I've never encountered an outright YIMBY neighborhood except for the prairie dogs in Aurora (oh wait no there are numbys even there). Some neighborhoods are more active with more resources than others and the ones who have resources kill development and push it elsewhere. The areas without those resources to fight development bear the brunt of the growth issues the folks like Bulldurhamer bemoan (rightfully so). Every neighborhood needs to open for business so that a neighborhood here and there aren't 'sacrificed' for total overwhelming change. It's the greater good theory - if everyone allows a little, nobody will have to allow too much.
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  #8270  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2020, 6:20 PM
laniroj laniroj is offline
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Originally Posted by mojiferous View Post
Dense apartments are a way to build affordably - let them be built in neighborhoods that are really really close to where good jobs are. Let them be built with no parking to save money. Assuming somewhere else nearby can take all the development so your picture perfect little suburban life within spitting distance of the CBD can continue is absurd.
I am convinced the side of this statement you land on is a generational thing. Older folks (I'll say born prior to 1980) are against this type of thinking because they have the charmed suburban life within spitting distance of the CBD and younger folks are ok with this out of necessity because they just need a place to live a better life.
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  #8271  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2020, 6:28 PM
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One Platte broke ground with what seems no lease contracts signed. If I'm right, 1144 and block 162 both broke ground on pure speculation as well. Does this mean that Denver's market has reached a level where it is easier to secure financing? If so... wtf T2


"No tenants have committed to the project. That’s a change from the original plan; a Nichols executive said last year the company wanted a signed lease before it broke ground."

https://businessden.com/2020/02/10/n...ng-one-platte/

Last edited by DenvertoLA; Feb 10, 2020 at 7:40 PM.
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  #8272  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2020, 6:29 PM
laniroj laniroj is offline
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My 'Cherry on Top' gondola idea will fix that.
I'm all for your gondola from CCN along Cherry Creek to the convention center. It would connect downtown to a major tourist hub (which is what will keep it a going concern) - maybe even fork a new route once River Mile goes in. Routing it to civic center will kill it from the get go. Hell, let Vail build and run it - it'll be cheaper, faster, and better than if the City or RTD takes it on!
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  #8273  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2020, 7:25 PM
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We've talked about urban design a thousand times, but maybe not for a few years.
Funny b/c the 1st thing that popped was the long and ongoing rants about design around the time that 2020 Lawrence was built. That was back in 2012.

Hotels have always been a target as they tend to be efficient but bland and leave one side blank where new development could occur. The well known Denver 'land barges' have also been a recurring topic. Over at Denver Infill architecture and design are a constant with new construction.

Moving out into the neighborhoods there has been much discussion of the fugly slot homes. Fortunately, the Denver City Council made changes to avoid the worst offenders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by laniroj View Post
I'm all for your gondola from CCN along Cherry Creek to the convention center. It would connect downtown to a major tourist hub (which is what will keep it a going concern) - maybe even fork a new route once River Mile goes in. Routing it to civic center will kill it from the get go. Hell, let Vail build and run it - it'll be cheaper, faster, and better than if the City or RTD takes it on!
Beat me to it as I thought of this over the weekend.

Other options could be a monorail or at Phoenix Sky Harbor they call it the Phoenix Sky train. Also referred to as a people mover it uses train cars by Bombardier Transportation. I've ridden this and it's really nice.
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  #8274  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2020, 8:32 PM
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Its MUCH easier to build a lowrise on spec than a highrise. Smaller bet, easier to fill, shorter schedule...
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  #8275  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2020, 8:37 PM
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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
The West Line Village @ Sheridan Station post above demonstrates how more affordable options of various densities and types can be built nearby to rail stations.
Why in the world would most of these stations provide more affordable housing in any significant number? Central Park Station is in the wealthiest zip code in Denver- you're not going to see very much new housing stock there that would be considered somewhat affordable. 38th & Blake is probably the hottest real estate along the Front Range. Most of the other stations you mentioned you mention lack large amount of open land that would be readily developable- let alone at the unit density needed to deliver large amounts of somewhat affordable housing. It's not that TOD won't play a part in providing the needed housing in the metro area, but it's not a game changer that moves the needle.

Even the example of West Line Village shows attached housing that's right about the median sales price in the metro area. If a household can deliver income in the range of $90-100K that probably works, but that's sill 25% higher than the median average income.
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  #8276  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2020, 10:07 PM
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Interesting news on the acquisition of Taubman Centers, the owner of Cherry Creek mall by Simon Property Group:


Simon Property Group Inc. (NYSE: SPG) will indeed acquire Taubman Centers Inc. in a deal foreshadowed by reports in early February.
As the biggest mall owner in the U.S., Simon plans to fund the $3.6 billion acquisition of fellow mall-owner Taubman (NYSE: TCO) with “existing liquidity,”
according to a release announcing the deal. Simon owns three shopping centers in Colorado: Colorado Mills in Lakewood, Denver West Village in Lakewood
and Denver Premium Outlets in Thornton. Taubman owns the upscale Cherry Creek Shopping Center in Denver.



https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/n...ters-sale.html

The West Side of Cherry Creek (the old Bed, Bath & Beyond & Container Store), is just begging to be scraped and turned into a multi-use redevelopment (retail, hotel, housing, restaurant). Cherry Creek has the highest commercial rates in Denver, I would think a major office/multi use plan would really pencil out.

Perhaps this acquisition will do that - I love the weekend farmers market but this primo real estate could definitely use a much denser and higher use.

Last edited by CherryCreek; Feb 10, 2020 at 10:57 PM.
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  #8277  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2020, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by laniroj View Post
TakeFive - You, and some others, consistently make the argument that we have enough land - in fact, you say we have more than enough. If that is true, and assuming all of that land has adequate zoning as your statement implies, then why do we still have a housing crisis? Or do you not think we have a housing crisis?
How many times do I need to 'splain this?

1) Historically, going back 6 or 7 decades when there has been a recession, whether housing was at the center of it or only mildly affected by the recession, housing construction has led the way out and up. It has always (or predominantly) started with entry-level housing which then led the move-up market and so on.

2) This time, coming out of the Great Recession, builders declined to build entry-level housing. They went with the lower hanging fruit which coming out of this recession meant upscale and luxury homes. It goes to all the changes that were made with respect to qualifying for a loan.

3) Because of the changes in qualifying for a loan, we became a rental nation. Hopefully you've noticed this.

4) It's only been recently that some builders have pivoted to building a more affordable, entry-level product; more builders are now joining the parade. See this post as one good example.
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  #8278  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2020, 10:18 PM
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Part Two:
Quote:
Originally Posted by laniroj View Post
TakeFive - You, and some others, consistently make the argument that we have enough land - in fact, you say we have more than enough. If that is true, and assuming all of that land has adequate zoning as your statement implies, then why do we still have a housing crisis? Or do you not think we have a housing crisis?
Coming out of the Great Recession we experienced the Great Millennial Migration - to city centers. No one had predicted this and it's always hard to predict the future as to specific demand and how it will play out. Denver benefited partly from all the positive vibe from FasTracks and this became a powerful catalyst for the ever growing Millennial migration.

Because developers like economists don't possess magical prediction powers, the earliest development tended to be 4 to 5-story apartments. As demand continued to out-pace supply developers gravitated to more and more stories for their apartment projects.

Developers rule the roost and since it's their money (including investors) they build to profit potential and prefer as mhays can tell you what pencils out the easiest. So they started small and increased their density over time as the demand warranted.

Whether catering to upscale housing or 'luxury' apartments downtown we only get what they decide to build. End of story.
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Last edited by TakeFive; Feb 10, 2020 at 10:31 PM.
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  #8279  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2020, 10:31 PM
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The recession isn't why meaningful amounts of affordable housing aren't getting built in central cities. It may be why it's not getting built out on the edge of sprawl. But unless you're going to argue that forcing affordable housing out to the edge of sprawl is ideal policy, that's really only a small part of the issue.

The issue is that for a century now all of our regulatory processes have assumed that the edge of sprawl is the only place ongoing significant growth happens, but there's both excellent reasons and gigantic demand for much much much more of it established areas.

And no, not everyone wants/needs to live close to downtown. But unless you're going to argue that our laws should prevent those who want to from doing so, then we've got a problem beyond recession finances.
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  #8280  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2020, 10:37 PM
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Whether catering to upscale housing or 'luxury' apartments downtown we only get what they decide to build. End of story.
When zoning only allows enough units to satisfy 10% of the demand in a place, developers only build for the 10% wealthiest buyers. This is the situation in central cities today.

We've been through this before. I'm not getting sucked in again. Have a nice day.
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