Winnipeg Jets

[Gm0ney]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

They had those last year and possibly the year before. Mini packs. But ya. I think we would expect this to happen going on 10 years after relocation.

The test will be to see if they can weather the storm. On ice product being a big factor.



They definitely did not get a free arena and have spent 10's of millions in renovations over the years. Subsidies though, yes lots of them.

From what I recall, TNSE put up $25M ($5M of which was the Eaton's land owned by David Thomson's company). The rest was either direct government subsidy or loans backed by the province (not sure if they were borrowing from the province or just using the province as a guarantor to get a good interest rate). From 2004 to 2011 I believe they paid the mortage, but when the Jets moved back, they renegotiated the terms of the loans and I believe the payments are now covered by the casino dollars...with whatever's left over to be used for renovations. So not free...but I mean, pretty close. They put down 25%, paid the rent for 6 or 7 years.

[headhorse]

make them pay us back or send em back to Atlanta!

[bomberjet]

I'm not disputing the fact that they got a lot of money. However, they are also running a business with expenses of over $100m per year. That comes with risks in itself. Such as ticket sales plummeting, which leads to concessions and etc plummeting. Which leads to financial losses. Then the on ice product suffers and we're hooped.

There are risks they take on. It's not just a free ride. They've done a very good job up to this point in marketing. We'll see what they can do going forward.

They also spent $170 mil for the team.

A coupe articles on funding.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...ntre-1.1026604
https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/lo...188546091.html
https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...h-public-funds

Quote: Taxpayers at all three levels of government paid a total of $40.5 million toward construction of the $133.5 million MTS Centre, which opened in 2004 and played a role in luring the NHL back to the city in 2011. The Jets’ owners, True North Sports and Entertainment, paid $93 million and the corporation owns the arena.

[esquire]

Why all the panic over a few unsold seats? The Detroit Red Wings have been playing in front of Manitoba Moose crowds since their new rink opened and I haven't heard any fretting from their fans about the team getting ready to leave town...

[buzzg]

You guys are very far off – TNSE paid for a vast majority of the arena. We as taxpayers got one of the best deals with the MTS Centre out of most North American pro sports venues.

All three levels of government paid a combined $40m, while TNSE paid the balance of $93m.

True North is paying for the arena renovations.

True North (with partners) owns the Shark Club casino, and paid for the VLTs. They are getting to keep more of the revenue than most, but they are still giving a huge amount of tax to the government from the casino – with the government shouldering none of the risk or burden of developing, running, and maintaining a casino downtown. Shark Club isn't that busy on non-event nights, so it could have been a money pit if it was government run.

Sure, TNSE is getting some tax breaks and support for True North Square – but good for them. They, with Richardson, are almost single-handedly rebuilding downtown, and spending hundreds of millions of dollars, which also provide a ton of taxes, all while substantially growing the annual tax contributions of the properties they own.

Here's an article outlining how lots of sports venues were funded in Canada. The Ticats, Redblacks, [not Nordiques], and Bombers' venues were all 100% taxpayer funded. Riders only fronted $25m of their $278m stadium. The Oilers only paid for 25% of their arena – and its the city's to manage now (we all know how that will work out down the road).

[Ando]

The Jets are sucking most nights, which is depressing. I don’t care what Byfuglien does but he should decide either way for the good of the team now what he is going to do. Hanging around and not making a decision is just making things worse. The Jets are playing with 5 or 6 AHL players right now so it’s not surprising they are below .500. How we got to this current state of decline is a question Chevy should answer. Don’t get me started about the coaching.

[Pinus]

Good Lord, some of the comments in this thread are reminiscent of the fear-mongering regarding the team relocating that we were accustom to hearing in 1995. Are we really starting to regress to that mental state again?

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

They had those last year and possibly the year before. Mini packs. But ya. I think we would expect this to happen going on 10 years after relocation.

The test will be to see if they can weather the storm. On ice product being a big factor.



They definitely did not get a free arena and have spent 10's of millions in renovations over the years. Subsidies though, yes lots of them.

Most if not all the renovations have been funded by the gaming revenues from Shark Club per TNSE's agreement with the province ...about $6.5 - $7.5 million per season as part of the annual $12.5 - $14.5 million overall subsidy. Those gaming revenues are public money. If TNSE does not spend that gaming revenue money on renos they do not receive it...per the original agreement with the province. Total renos have likely exceeded $50 million by this point and maybe as high as $60 million.

If TNSE had not received this gaming revenue I doubt they would have spent half as much money on renos. It is likely they would have milked things in the Bell MTS Centre a little bit longer...especially things that don't provide extra revenue.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by buzzg

You guys are very far off – TNSE paid for a vast majority of the arena. We as taxpayers got one of the best deals with the MTS Centre out of most North American pro sports venues.

All three levels of government paid a combined $40m, while TNSE paid the balance of $93m.

True North is paying for the arena renovations.

True North (with partners) owns the Shark Club casino, and paid for the VLTs. They are getting to keep more of the revenue than most, but they are still giving a huge amount of tax to the government from the casino – with the government shouldering none of the risk or burden of developing, running, and maintaining a casino downtown. Shark Club isn't that busy on non-event nights, so it could have been a money pit if it was government run.

Sure, TNSE is getting some tax breaks and support for True North Square – but good for them. They, with Richardson, are almost single-handedly rebuilding downtown, and spending hundreds of millions of dollars, which also provide a ton of taxes, all while substantially growing the annual tax contributions of the properties they own.

Here's an article outlining how lots of sports venues were funded in Canada. The Ticats, Redblacks, [not Nordiques], and Bombers' venues were all 100% taxpayer funded. Riders only fronted $25m of their $278m stadium. The Oilers only paid for 25% of their arena – and its the city's to manage now (we all know how that will work out down the road).

Richardsons and TNSE certainly help downtown but a far greater percentage of development has nothing to do with these two entities. Red River College expansion, U of W residential expansion, 300 Main, condos and apts by the Assiniboine River, countless projects in the Exchange and Waterfront, soon-to-commence Forks developments (both residential and Skip the Dishes), and Portage Place Development...none of these projects relied or are in any way related to the TNSE and taken as a whole, they are far more important to downtown than a couple of square blocks TNSE is developing.

[Wpg_Guy]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Richardsons and TNSE certainly help downtown but a far greater percentage of development has nothing to do with these two entities. Red River College expansion, U of W residential expansion, 300 Main, condos and apts by the Assiniboine River, countless projects in the Exchange and Waterfront, soon-to-commence Forks developments (both residential and Skip the Dishes), and Portage Place Development...none of these projects relied or are in any way related to the TNSE and taken as a whole, they are far more important to downtown than a couple of square blocks TNSE is developing.

True North was the catalyst in spurring most of the developments you mentioned. Downtown developments was essentially dead until the return of the Jets. Their indirect impact is quit significant. If you look at any of the marketing material for those projects they all boast about their proximity to Bell MTS Place, live, work, play, it's a huge selling feature. I dont think we can undermine the value True North and Bell MTS Place has had on all downtown development since it's inception and more importantly the return of the NHL. It's doubtful the impending sale of Portage Place and it's redevelopment would be happening had True North Square not been constructed. Same goes for the redevelopment of the medical arts building among others and we will continue to see economic spinoffs from True North's investments in the years to come.

[zhan lin]

Awesome!!! Thank you Regina!

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by esquire

Why all the panic over a few unsold seats? The Detroit Red Wings have been playing in front of Manitoba Moose crowds since their new rink opened and I haven't heard any fretting from their fans about the team getting ready to leave town...

I wouldn't say a panic, just a cautious look at historical vs. current events. I'm just hopeful the NHL economic environment is stable enough to carry the team in the event of further instability. It would be a huge blow to the city to lose such a large employer.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by dmacc

I wouldn't say a panic, just a cautious look at historical vs. current events. I'm just hopeful the NHL economic environment is stable enough to carry the team in the event of further instability. It would be a huge blow to the city to lose such a large employer.

In just about any other city when there are unsold seats, the discussion tends to be centred on "what is the team going to do to entice people back to games?"

Here the discussion is "omg it's happening, time to panic, we're going to lose the team again"

I mean come on, TNSE has some obligations here beyond just putting a bunch of guys on the ice and jacking up ticket prices to the maximum amount every season. If there are unsold seats then maybe TNSE needs to step up its game a little. When the team is floundering fans are 100% correct to stay away.

[Jammon]

Originally Posted by dmacc

I wouldn't say a panic, just a cautious look at historical vs. current events. I'm just hopeful the NHL economic environment is stable enough to carry the team in the event of further instability. It would be a huge blow to the city to lose such a large employer.

It will never happen as long as we have teams like Arizona and Florida losing money.

As you can see from the Forbes list, the Jets are still making money:https://www.forbes.com/teams/winnipe.../#65f61c7639e3

But it will be interesting to see how the next season unfolds.

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by Jammon

It will never happen as long as we have teams like Arizona and Florida losing money.

As you can see from the Forbes list, the Jets are still making money:https://www.forbes.com/teams/winnipe.../#65f61c7639e3

But it will be interesting to see how the next season unfolds.

What does the fact that Arizona and Florida lose money have to do with anything? A team will be in Winnipeg as long as there is a able and willing owner to own them here. That's it. The fact other teams lose money is pretty irrelevant as long as there are willing owners to own them there.

[bomberjet]

There is no panic.. As I mentioned, this is the expected outcome after nearly 10 years.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

There is no panic.. As I mentioned, this is the expected outcome after nearly 10 years.

I doubt David Thomson and all 37 billion of his dollars are going to change their minds about owning the Jets because of a few unsold seats. The Jets could give away all their tickets for free for the next 20 years and it would affect his wealth the same way that buying a sweater would affect the wealth of the average person.

[Jammon]

Originally Posted by cheswick

What does the fact that Arizona and Florida lose money have to do with anything? A team will be in Winnipeg as long as there is a able and willing owner to own them here. That's it. The fact other teams lose money is pretty irrelevant as long as there are willing owners to own them there.

The NHL will never pull out of this market again when so many American teams are losing money. They moved the Jets 1.0 because of economics. Take Canadian teams to the US so they can make money. Now, hockey interest is dwindling and Americans are more focused on other sports. Even hockey interest is on the decline in Canada. And the Canadian teams are propping up many of the American franchises: https://www.statista.com/statistics/...teams-in-2010/

[buzzg]

The Jets are still making lots of money. And ticket sales are just one part of their revenue. Merchandise, TV and radio deals, licensing, gaming, etc all make a ton of revenue. There's no concern here.

As mentioned, this is probably the worst the team has looked in 5 years. Could easily turn around mid-year with some of these young guys getting more experience, and a trade or two. Plus the west looks to be a conference of copious mediocrity, so as poor as we've played, we're still right in the wild card mix. It's like Colorado in a league of their own, and Edmonton but I just don't see that lasting (because, Oilers). If they start playing a bit better, the arena will be full.

[esquire]

^ No question it's tough to swallow being knocked down a peg after being considered legit Cup contenders for the last two seasons. The fall from grace happened much faster than I would have expected... this is a CFL-like deterioration where you lose your QB and MLB and you go from division champ to 4th place overnight.