SAN ANTONIO | Urban Core Development Thread

[oldmanshirt]

Originally Posted by sakyle04

ever known someone who is trying to sell a house in a subdivision that hasn't been built out yet? can't get a good price since people can walk down the street and customize a new unit from the beginning rather than taking on your 2 yeard-old place...i like to think of it that way, even if it isn't really the same thing.

i would assume that the good folks trying to sell the units in Tower 1 wouldn't really be helped by an entirely new tower being announced - the same units in Tower 2 would sell (best views/floors) as they had in Tower 1 and you would be left with a glut of 5th - 8th floor units with views to the east.

better this way.

also, remember that tower 2 would probably have to be pre-sold just like tower 1 (60%) before construction...it will be a couple of years.

All very true. Thanks for setting me straight

[KevinFromTexas]

Originally Posted by Schertz1

Emporis typically has bad or no information to begin with. It's also poorly updated, especially if you do not life in a "hip" city.

I'm actually the main editor for San Antonio at Emporis. I know the data there for San Antonio isn't complete, and isn't always up to date. Unless you live in the city you're trying to update, it's very hard to keep tabs on everything. The best thing would be for someone who actually lives in San Antonio and is dedicated to keeping tabs on its data, to sign up as an editor there. I've tried to keep updated on stuff in downtown, but most of the stuff outside of downtown is harder to keep track of, especially if you don't live there. I would love it if someone else joined up and contributed who actually lives in San Antonio and is familiar with all the developments inside and outside of downtown. I know for sure there are a lot of high rises that are outside of downtown that are missing from the database. There's no way there's only 90 high rises in San Antonio. I'm not sure of the exact number that are missing, but there are a good bit. It's kind of hard to add something to the database if you don't even know if it exists!

[MichaelB]

Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas

I'm actually the main editor for San Antonio at Emporis. I know the data there for San Antonio isn't complete, and isn't always up to date. Unless you live in the city you're trying to update, it's very hard to keep tabs on everything. The best thing would be for someone who actually lives in San Antonio and is dedicated to keeping tabs on its data, to sign up as an editor there. I've tried to keep updated on stuff in downtown, but most of the stuff outside of downtown is harder to keep track of, especially if you don't live there. I would love it if someone else joined up and contributed who actually lives in San Antonio and is familiar with all the developments inside and outside of downtown. I know for sure there are a lot of high rises that are outside of downtown that are missing from the database. There's no way there's only 90 high rises in San Antonio. I'm not sure of the exact number that are missing, but there are a good bit. It's kind of hard to add something to the database if you don't even know if it exists!

Nicely put Kev. You are such a gentleman.

[ydoc14]

Here's a cool Vidorra shot: http://flickr.com/photos/78321917@N00/2672165705/

[sakyle04]

Originally Posted by oldmanshirt

All very true. Thanks for setting me straight

i hope i wasn't setting you straight... i wake up with cold sweats having nightmares about being the forum know-it-all who must always be right.

i got bored at work and i guess i got a little wordy..

(and, if i may ask, where did the name "oldmanshirt" come from....always one of my favorites, but i tend to think of my neighbor in his guayaberra.)

[sakyle04]

Originally Posted by MichaelB

Nicely put Kev. You are such a gentleman.

here here!!


kevin, you emporis editor's don't get paid nearly enough!!

[KevinFromTexas]

Originally Posted by sakyle04

here here!!


kevin, you emporis editor's don't get paid nearly enough!!

We don't get paid anything. About the only "profit" would be a photo that gets licensed for something, even then I'm not rolling in the money. I'm not looking to make money off it, it's all for fun.

[oldmanshirt]

Originally Posted by sakyle04

i hope i wasn't setting you straight... i wake up with cold sweats having nightmares about being the forum know-it-all who must always be right.

i got bored at work and i guess i got a little wordy..

(and, if i may ask, where did the name "oldmanshirt" come from....always one of my favorites, but i tend to think of my neighbor in his guayaberra.)

Hey, no problem. You gave me some good stuff to think about. I'm not real well-verse in the ins and outs of real-estate, so it was good info.

oldmanshirt refers to this horrible-looking plaid shirt I own that was made circa early 80s. I wore it a few times in college and my roommate started referring to it as my "Old Man Shirt". But yeah, its a pretty hideous shirt, my wife hates it and won't let me wear it, and I only wish it were half as cool as a guaybera

[sakyle04]

Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas

We don't get paid anything. About the only "profit" would be a photo that gets licensed for something, even then I'm not rolling in the money. I'm not looking to make money off it, it's all for fun.

rolling in dough - don't lie...

[sakyle04]

Originally Posted by oldmanshirt

Hey, no problem. You gave me some good stuff to think about. I'm not real well-verse in the ins and outs of real-estate, so it was good info.

oldmanshirt refers to this horrible-looking plaid shirt I own that was made circa early 80s. I wore it a few times in college and my roommate started referring to it as my "Old Man Shirt". But yeah, its a pretty hideous shirt, my wife hates it and won't let me wear it, and I only wish it were half as cool as a guaybera

that's an awesome shirt.

[Schertz1]

If I do not come across as a gentlemen....fine. It was not my intention; nor was it my intention to piss anyone off. The fact - as Kevin also stated - is there are several buildings in downtown and elsewhere that are not listed or have no listed height. Maybe someone in San Antonio should be an editor for emporis and have access to update the compilation page here. I nominate Kingwilliam. He alway seems to know what's going on in town.

[oldmanshirt]

Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas

I'm actually the main editor for San Antonio at Emporis. I know the data there for San Antonio isn't complete, and isn't always up to date. Unless you live in the city you're trying to update, it's very hard to keep tabs on everything. The best thing would be for someone who actually lives in San Antonio and is dedicated to keeping tabs on its data, to sign up as an editor there. I've tried to keep updated on stuff in downtown, but most of the stuff outside of downtown is harder to keep track of, especially if you don't live there. I would love it if someone else joined up and contributed who actually lives in San Antonio and is familiar with all the developments inside and outside of downtown. I know for sure there are a lot of high rises that are outside of downtown that are missing from the database. There's no way there's only 90 high rises in San Antonio. I'm not sure of the exact number that are missing, but there are a good bit. It's kind of hard to add something to the database if you don't even know if it exists!

I'd be interested, but my knowledge of existing high-rises (outside of the top 15-20) is somewhat lacking. I could definitely keep on top of new, proposed, and u/c projects, given that I'm on here like 15 hours a day

[kornbread]

Originally Posted by sakyle04

also, remember that tower 2 would probably have to be pre-sold just like tower 1 (60%) before construction...it will be a couple of years.

If all that is true, then here are a few things to consider:
- Construction for tower 1 began in Dec 2006 (supposedly 60% sold). If they are waiting to announce tower 2 when 80% of tower 1 is built, that means they have not been able to sell an additional 20% in a year and a half.
- Announced condo projects on Houston St have been abandoned in favor of hotels.
- The condo projects that are proceeding downtown are on a much smaller scale. Larger scale projects seem to be favoring apartments.

Personally, I think developers were waiting to see how successful Vidorra would be and what it has shown is that the market just isn't there. The Vidorra developers hedged their bets as well by phasing in units. I would be surprised if Phase 2 is ever built. Wasn't there some federal or city funding involved with Vidorra as well?

I think that residences will still be developed on a more manageable scale in River North, off Broadway and on Flores (maybe even near UTSA downtown). It would be nice to just see those neighborhoods get established over the next 10 years.

[KeepSanAntonioLame]

according to their site it looks like they've only sold out of 2 or 3 floor plans and neither of the penthouses have sold. But it looks like both floorplans of the townhomes have sold.

[KevinFromTexas]

Originally Posted by Schertz1

If I do not come across as a gentlemen....fine. It was not my intention; nor was it my intention to piss anyone off. The fact - as Kevin also stated - is there are several buildings in downtown and elsewhere that are not listed or have no listed height. Maybe someone in San Antonio should be an editor for emporis and have access to update the compilation page here. I nominate Kingwilliam. He alway seems to know what's going on in town.

That would be great. Anyone who wants to help out, please do. About the editing of the compilation thread here though. That's more tricky. For one, it would take a moderator to edit the thread. People can only edit their own posts, moderators can edit others. Even after a new thread is created, whoever took over editing it would have to learn how to do the codes for listing each project (if it was decided to keep that format of listing the projects).

As for joining Emporis as an editor. Click on the link below. Follow the instructions and fill out the form.
https://community.emporis.com/pu/jo/?lng=3

Originally Posted by oldmanshirt

oldmanshirt refers to this horrible-looking plaid shirt I own that was made circa early 80s. I wore it a few times in college and my roommate started referring to it as my "Old Man Shirt". But yeah, its a pretty hideous shirt, my wife hates it and won't let me wear it, and I only wish it were half as cool as a guaybera

Haha, funny story. I had wondered what your forum name was about. The avatar makes it even funnier. lol

[sirkingwilliam]

Originally Posted by kornbread

If all that is true, then here are a few things to consider:
- Construction for tower 1 began in Dec 2006 (supposedly 60% sold). If they are waiting to announce tower 2 when 80% of tower 1 is built, that means they have not been able to sell an additional 20% in a year and a half.
- Announced condo projects on Houston St have been abandoned in favor of hotels.
- The condo projects that are proceeding downtown are on a much smaller scale. Larger scale projects seem to be favoring apartments.

Personally, I think developers were waiting to see how successful Vidorra would be and what it has shown is that the market just isn't there. The Vidorra developers hedged their bets as well by phasing in units. I would be surprised if Phase 2 is ever built. Wasn't there some federal or city funding involved with Vidorra as well?

I think that residences will still be developed on a more manageable scale in River North, off Broadway and on Flores (maybe even near UTSA downtown). It would be nice to just see those neighborhoods get established over the next 10 years.

Vidorra was never 60% sold upon start of construction. Where'd you get that?

Also, what condo projects on Houston St. were dropped in favor of Hotels? The only one was the Neisner building, which I assume you read about in the Nest Fest blog, which dropped condo plans after the building was sold to a new developer.

There was no city funding for Vidorra. The only money given was for the quiet zone, which wasn't much as the developer is paying for most of it themselves.

[kornbread]

Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam

Vidorra was never 60% sold upon start of construction. Where'd you get that?

Also, what condo projects on Houston St. were dropped in favor of Hotels? The only one was the Neisner building, which I assume you read about in the Nest Fest blog, which dropped condo plans after the building was sold to a new developer.

There was no city funding for Vidorra. The only money given was for the quiet zone, which wasn't much as the developer is paying for most of it themselves.

See SAKyles post. However, that's the number that's been thrown around here for a while. I never really believed it happened when ground was broken. I think that was mostly ceremonial. So what was the percentage and where are they now? The point is, the sales results have not been a catalyst for more projects.
http://www.mysanantonio.com/business...5fdf_html.html

Presidian Cos. is expected to break ground on the first tower in September, if 60 percent of the units are presold.

Presidian, which is the first downtown condo developer to throw a hat east of Interstate 37, got a seven-year, $2.7 million tax credit from the city.

The main idea with redeveloping Houston Street was to attract locals back to downtown. This included residences. There was a nice article a while back that basically said it wasn't happening so now the attention has turned to visitors and hotels. Neisner is the first. What will happen with Kress and San Lorenzo? And, even though Vistana is technically on Houston St., I think it's location is more tied to UTSA than any dynamic happening on Houston.

I'm pretty sure the was some type of government funding involved with Vidorra beyond the quiet zone. I'll research this and post what I find.
http://www.mysanantonio.com/business...3d46_html.html

Financing from the International Bank of Commerce and Fannie Mae has been arranged. The funds will become available once 60 percent of the condos are under contract, and construction is scheduled to begin then, Leddy said.

The market is showing that you have to crawl before you walk. I see smaller projects happening and no phase 2 any time soon, if ever.

[texboy]

This would beg the question though Kornbread, what if the developers were holding back on telling us their numbers in order to get a jump on the market with their second project. What you are doing right now is purely speculating. We have heard no solid numbers from ANY of the projects going on right now in downtown. Please do not assume that just bc Vidorra II has not begun construction, that sales figures are low for this project. Just because tower two hasn't started yet, doesn't mean it won't ever. There are alot of logistical things to get through before beginning construction on a structure. For all we know they could be still in the planning stages of tower two at this point. Alot of times developers won't begin a second project (ie Koontz McCombs) until their first project is done.

[sakyle04]

Originally Posted by kornbread

The market is showing that you have to crawl before you walk. I see smaller projects happening and no phase 2 any time soon, if ever.

First, that was a great post.

I think that the above quote is the part which you have really nailed. I think we have seen a very slow embracing of the new DT/urban lifestyle here in SA. That probably has to do with our corporate mix and available developable suburban land vs. downtown SA land prices more than anything else, but it still is starting to look like fact that we in SA are just not really biting on high-rise living (from a buying standpoint) on the same level as similar cities.

That said, SA is crawling. And crawling does lead to walking...Alteza and Vidorra will grow the momentum in their own way and Vistana will expose a large number of potential buyers to the product without forcing them into a 30-year mortgage. River North looks like it will begin to be a little "safer" introduction into the urban idea, as people will not be in the core per se, but still participating in a more DT lifestyle.

Renters will become buyers eventually (and if nothing else they contribute to a more livable DT simply in their numbers which create a greater demand for services for a residential population). The real question is whether there will be reasonably affordable space in DT proper. South Flores is booming because it is only 150% the price per sf of the suburbs. Alteza is closer to 400% on a rough estimate. Vidorra is around 200%.

If we can get a few projects on the drawing board that would allow people to live in DT at 200% their current cost per sf I think we might have a tipping point. if we can't, then we will see more of the same - a growing urban identity with residential urbanity existing just outside the true core of DT.

(As a personal example, my wife and I spent 150% per sf over a suburban option to live close to DT...we would have lived in DT proper but were priced out and therefore chose to live 1.5 miles out in a single-family home.)

[alexjon]

I think part of River North will be affordable, just given the modelling they're doing. Using the examples of the Pearl District and the up-and-coming South Lake Union areas of Portland and Seattle, respectively, I'd say they'll throw in a mix. They've been following the examples and suggestions from the developers of those areas very closely.

However, I need to point out that this cart usually precedes the horse as it did with Portland's downtown redevelopment. They had every intention of getting to DT first and branching out to the Pearl District area, but it didn't go that way. The Pearl District came first and has lead to growth in the downtown Portland core.

Developers like a clean-slate, so I'd expect a lot of crawling until a rough build-out of River North and the inner eastside. The west end of DT and the inner westside may start out prior to a DT renaissance, but I wouldn't think those would go too quickly unless rail came through pretty quickly.

Downtown SA is crawling, but give it 5-10 years and it'll suddenly boom to keep pace with other inner areas.