Why London is beating American cities

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

For many decades, teenagers and young adults in the United States followed this routine:

1. pre-party at someone's house
2. head out to the concert/bar/event/party around 9pm
3. head to the next concert/bar/event/party around 11pm
4. head to the next concert/bar/event/party around 1am
5. at closing time, either go to a 24-diner (i.e. Waffle House or the Rock & Roll Denny's), go to an after-party at someone's house, go to an after-hours bar/dance place of some type (possibly an illegal bar), or (if you're a musician) go to someone's house and jam until 6am
6. ride the first bus back to your apartment
7. sleep until 3pm
8. do it again, for about 7-8 years, then get a real job, move to the suburbs, and start voting Republican.

Shit, I never completed step 8.

Whoops........ too late now.......

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by muppet

A noticeable fallout is still prices and greedflation, though not as severe as the US, but the abject decimation of nightlife, which has indeed entered a doom loop. Central London, once home to the worlds biggest nightlife districts and 24hrs is now quieter than outer zones as Millennials/ Gen Z just go to their locals to party, drink less and spend less - a pint (or increasingly small bottle) is now $10. Pubs now close at the draconian times of 11am, just like they did before, despite the 24hr licensing. Club land is gutted, and this last year has been mind-blowing, almost everyone I meet now comments on how much quieter it's become overnight, kicking a can down Soho or walking your dog/ grandma after a nice little meal.

One thing that I still find troubling in NYC is how so many restaurants have made their pandemic hours of operation permanent. Prior to the pandemic, it was standard for restaurants in my area to stay open until 11pm at the earliest, but now most are closed before 10pm. I'm still accustomed to not having to look ahead at restaurant schedules if I'm planning on a late dinner.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by woodrow

Bars, pubs, clubs - wth? That surprised me. I live in a quiet part of London but we have 6 pubs in the hood and most close at 23:00 (ha) with 2 closing at midnight. That is fine because I am an old and want the kids off my lawn, but when my hubby and I do want to rage it seems like there are fewer late night options than even Chicago. Again, I am an old and I am sure I am missing where the cool kids go but I do find it surprisingly quiet. I blame Gen-Z.

Originally Posted by Obadno

I would agree anecdotally that the 20 somethings of today are far less bar-ratty than we were.

IDK if they are all just much more online but it feels like they simply do not go to the bar or the high street or the downtown area to party and socialize as much as we did.

A number of theories have been posited as to why Gen Z's are less likely to go out to bars & clubs than previous generations did, but I think it's ultimately a bit of a chicken-and-egg scenario. Is it that bars are closing because zoomers aren't going out enough; or are they are not going out as much because the interesting places are closing in the face of ever-rising rents and costs? Or is it that nightlife is just now caught in a death spiral as one reinforces the other, and vice versa?

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

Yeah I have to wonder if the competition to look as healthy as possible on Instagram is motivating this staid behavior.

Instagram influencers are a tiny fraction of the population. The "kids and their tech" angle is overstated, and feels a bit antiquated at this point - the most prolific smart phone & social media users these days are likely middle-aged. The rejection of curated social media profiles and the embrace of "dumb phones" amongst the youngest segments of society has been well documented.

Wellness and health definitely are trendy these days; and while statistically & anecdotally Gen Z's are indeed less social and do drink & party less than Millennials or Gen X's did at the same age, it's not as if they don't go out or abstain for partying altogether either.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Only 1.2 million per year? That's even less than much-smaller Canada.

Yeah, if Britain continues to have such a low yearly growth rate, Canada will become the British Monarchy’s #1 realm within our lifetimes (population-wise; GDP might be another story, as you know!)

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by lio45

Yeah, if Britain continues to have such a low yearly growth rate, Canada will become the British Monarchy’s #1 realm within our lifetimes (population-wise; GDP might be another story, as you know!)

Maybe the UK royals will swap out for Canada the same way the Portuguese royals did for Brazil lol.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

.

Wellness and health definitely are trendy these days; and while statistically & anecdotally Gen Z's are indeed less social and do drink & party less than Millennials or Gen X's did at the same age, it's not as if they don't go out or abstain for partying altogether either.

Considering how many GenZ'ers are overweight with growing prevalences of mental and physical issues, I'm not convinced with the "health and fitness" angle and think it's more or a cultural shift away from past generation's "hedonistic" lifestyles. No sex, drugs and rock and roll. I wasn't exactly wild and crazy at 20 compared to a lot of people my age back then but I come across as Tommy Lee in his prime compared to average young people now.

[chris08876]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

young people dont drink anymore either. it got awful in the west village as we all used to have the place to ourselves on weekend mornings while the party age slept it off. now they are up at the crack of dawn on weekends doing coffee, yoga, running, early brunch and whatever and you can’t escape them.

That's them Manhattan folks, especially in the Village and over in Brooklyn Heights. Boring people. Just like Hoboken.

The real party is on Roosevelt Ave and Jamaica, Queens.

If in NJ... Elizabeth and Ironbound Newark is where its at. party wise. Morristown is boring. Same with Hoboken!

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by JManc

Considering how many GenZ'ers are overweight with growing prevalences of mental and physical issues,

It seems like a ton of young working class males spend most of their off-time playing video games instead of hitting the corner bar after work. I have no idea what the working class women do off the clock.

cultural shift away from past generation's "hedonistic" lifestyles. No sex, drugs and rock and roll. I wasn't exactly wild and crazy at 20 compared to a lot of people my age back then but I come across as Tommy Lee in his prime compared to average young people now.

Yeah I remember that people used to post rowdy party photos on the internet back before social media and then during the first 1-2 years of Facebook. Now young people don't even take those photos - partly because nobody seems to take candid photos of each other anymore, and partly because wild stuff doesn't even seem to happen anymore. I'm not confident that you have people trying to stuff the smallest girl at the party down the laundry chute anymore.

[chris08876]

Gen-Z is going to have a rough time.

We've sort of reached the point where the failures of the past, or really should I say "gaps", are becoming very VERY apparent.

This cost of living situation and this nationwide housing situation NEEDS to be fixed, otherwise not just Gen-Z but future Gens, Alpha I believe, will be royally fucked.

And that's not just being blunt about it but more of a dire warning.

Considering wages haven't really risen to dramatic level, I have no idea how folks will be able to manage with a respectable and safe budget; the housing and costs of the future.

20+ years of half ass measures in the U.S. when it comes to cost of living, and housing are really showing the ugly side of what happens when long term prosperity is not a factor.

The U.S., Canada, England... bad situation.

Mass housing, fixed prices on certain essentials, price controls on medical, and stricter labor laws in favor of employees are needed. Otherwise will lead to a lot of BS in the future.

Only going to get worse folks. On some fronts but on the labor side, well, with the brain drain via baby boomers retiring, a lot of opportunity for those that are competitive.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by chris08876

This cost of living situation and this nationwide housing situation NEEDS to be fixed, otherwise not just Gen-Z but future Gens

It's not nationwide. In fact, there are only a handful of cities in the United States where costs are very high throughout the entire metro area. You can still get a 1-bedroom apartment somewhere in most cities for $600/mo or less.

Like this:
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...5130780976902/

20+ years of half ass measures in the U.S. when it comes to cost of living, and housing are really showing the ugly side of what happens when long term prosperity is not a factor.

This is not true. Houses and apartments were being torn down, en masse, throughout the U.S. until about 2015, because we built way too many in the postwar years. I mean...Detroit. St. Louis. Cleveland. South side of Chicago. These cities had 1,000+ homes and apartment buildings torn down every year for decades.

[Crawford]

The U.S. has a very inefficient housing market with weird, mismatched demand, but there isn't really anything close to a national housing crisis.

Boomers are occupying huge empty homes, there's no such thing as a starter home anymore, and the system incentivizes huge inefficiencies, like abandoning/demolishing housing in one jurisdiction, while building housing in a neighboring jurisdiction.

My parents live on a street of largeish colonials. Most of the homes are occupied by one or two people, and maybe 1/3 of the homes are only occupied in the warmer months. Half the year they decamp to Naples and Marco Island. It's almost a law if you're 65+, white, suburban, Midwestern, Republican-leaning and affluent.

[jmecklenborg]

^Per this article, there are 33.6 million spare bedrooms in the United States:
https://www.cnbc.com/2016/04/28/ther...-bedrooms.html

There are probably far more than 33 million basements where more people could live. Also, attached and detached garages that are currently filled with junk. So the physical space exists, with no new construction, for at least 50 million more people. But the rent isn't high enough in most metro areas to motivate people to start renting out their spare bedrooms and basements in large numbers.

I own two rental houses where I could convert the basements to separate apartments. It would cost at least $50,000 each to do so legally, meaning it would take many years to realize a return, so I haven't done it. That money could instead go toward the down payment on yet another rental with 2-3 legit bedrooms. Plus yet another un-utilized basement.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

^Per this article, there are 33.6 million spare bedrooms in the United States:

You do realize that the vast majority of Americans who live in homes with spare bedrooms have no desire to rent them out to strangers, right?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

^Per this article, there are 33.6 million spare bedrooms in the United States:

You do realize that the vast majority of Americans who live in homes with spare bedrooms have no desire to rent them out to strangers, right?


My boomer in-laws live in a gigantic 5 bedroom house in suburban Milwaukee. They ain't renting any of those other 4 bedrooms out to strangers at any price point.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

My boomer in-laws live in a gigantic 5 bedroom house in suburban Milwaukee. They ain't renting any of those other 4 bedrooms out to strangers at any price point.

If the US ever reaches Canadian-levels housing crisis, that kind of house can get rented to 10-12 (non-student) tenants (2/bedroom and some in the living room).

[JManc]

We have three bedrooms upstairs, two we use as offices but no way in hell would we ever rent them out to strangers.

[Crawford]

I think that's the point. We don't have a housing affordability crisis. We have tons of 1-2 person households living in large, largely empty homes. This would never be a thing in most developed, wealthy nations. In Germany, the concept of one or two people occupying 4,000 sq. ft. of space would be totally foreign.

My dad's house had 11 occupants during his childhood, in a single unit. It has since been broken up into three units, with 7 occupants. It's smaller than a McMansion. It's a very prosperous part of Germany, and people live well.

Same thing with vehicle affordability & mobility. All this complaining about new vehicle prices and gas prices. So why not drive a small sedan, or take transit, like everywhere else on the planet? Nope. So we don't really have an issue there either, based on consumer behavior.

We have a nation where people now think that people with average middle class buying power deserve giant new homes and multiple giant new vehicles without going into debt.

[JManc]

I think it's a stereotype that middle class suburbanites live in massive houses with expensive new cars. There are those who certainly flex their wealth (or credit limit) with expensive crap but a majority live pretty modestly. At least judging from my neighborhood after living here almost ten years.

[chris08876]

I'm very surprised that some people here don't think we have a housing crisis and an issue at hand in general with cost of living.

When we look at the main power center regions in this country, where a lot of people live and a bulk of the economic power is in, those regions do indeed have a housing issue. Lack of or not enough. I mean just to list, some examples, You have NoCal, SoCal, Cascadia, BoshWash and smaller regions where housing costs are naturally high. Your Denvers of the world.

We can say transit all we want, which is lackluster globally speaking and still results in a huge requirement for vehicles. Commute times and so on.

Yeah we don't have a housing issue if people are willing to deal with very long commutes, sure. Hour and a half to two hours, sure, why not.

As if wages are all sky high across this nation. The cost of living situation is very real. Just factoring in property values, rents, cost in car ownership as some areas require it and if not, the ones with transit are super expensive, education, taxes, and that's the tip of the iceberg.

Has anybody seen the prices typically present in our major power nodes?

Its one thing to say people should downsize but even the downsized units or homes, they still strain the budget of many.

This is not a nation of 340 million folks making 100k+ or more, don't forget that when considering the overall "health" and situation at hand.

There is very much indeed a massive housing shortage in this country. The key issue to consider when it comes to long term prosperity.

We also can't assume that a large transfer of wealth from relatives to the new kin is enough to help folks, when a large portion if this country is still pay check to pay check. Don't forget that!

People that say there is no housing shortage and no issue with the cost of living are speaking from a seat of privilege. Think about the overall picture when thinking long term. Blind leading the blind and this is why there has been systematic gaps in the whole system and guess what? Our cities and regions suffer due to it. Will impact the long term potential of them and the long term prosperity for many. For the majority which is not from a position of privilege.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by chris08876

There is very much indeed a massive housing shortage in this country.

No, there isn't. Please re-read my previous post.

a large portion if this country is still pay check to pay check. Don't forget that!

Yeah, including people earn over $100k. It doesn't matter how much someone earns (or inherits) who is bad with money - they're going to blow it.

Blind leading the blind and this is why there has been systematic gaps in the whole system and guess what? Our cities and regions suffer due to it. Will impact the long term potential of them and the long term prosperity for many. For the majority which is not from a position of privilege.

If the United States, Canada, and I presume England and the rest of Western Europe (I make no claim to fully understanding immigration to Europe) are so terribly inept, why do millions of people continue to move to these countries from Planet Earth's distant corners?

I have never, in my life, heard any immigrant to the United States complain about the cost of living. Tons of people with no money are able to get to the U.S. (I once worked with a guy who rode a raft from Cuba) and make it work, yet native-born citizens from middle class and wealthy backgrounds spend their days and nights on Twitter and Reddit complaining about the "cost of living" and threatening to move to Portugal or Honduras or wherever.