Is Dallas' core infill being overlooked?

[pdxtex]

Dallas looks massive. It seems like the best sunbelt candidate to break the sunbelt mold and turn into something pretty walkable and urban. Southern cities are hot too so I can't fault them for being car oriented. Its bicycle network and street grid seem pretty workable too. Arlington looks less pedestrian oriented but Ft Worth seems like it heading in the right direction. I bet the metro becomes the third biggest in our lifetime.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

Dallas looks massive. It seems like the best sunbelt candidate to break the sunbelt mold and turn into something pretty walkable and urban. Southern cities are hot too so I can't fault them for being car oriented. Its bicycle network and street grid seem pretty workable too. Arlington looks less pedestrian oriented but Ft Worth seems like it heading in the right direction. I bet the metro becomes the third biggest in our lifetime.

I flew into Love Field earlier this year for work in Dallas and the chunky low/midrise corridor really came into view and was impressive - I hadn't been to Dallas boots on the ground since 2008. I've flown in/out of DFW since then but don't recall seeing much.

[jtown,man]

Downtown Dallas is being "overlooked" by developers, yes.

Downtown needs more energy, parks, and residents. They need to accelerate this growth. They also need to beautify downtown, make roads safer, and certainly work on their public side of things (street trees, curb bumpouts, lower speeds, better sidewalks, etc.).

The bones are there for a massive and lively downtown.

[R1070]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Downtown Dallas is being "overlooked" by developers, yes.

Downtown needs more energy, parks, and residents. They need to accelerate this growth. They also need to beautify downtown, make roads safer, and certainly work on their public side of things (street trees, curb bumpouts, lower speeds, better sidewalks, etc.).

The bones are there for a massive and lively downtown.

They have been pretty aggressive in the addition of creative greenspaces downtown.

[Dallaz]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Dallas, Houston, Sunbelt cities were continuously mocked on SSP when I joined 20 years ago.

I think we should applaud the strides that cities/Metros like Dallas (among others) are making. Infilling the core city and its hip/trendy areas.

Hopefully they get rid of parking minimums and reduce lot sizes and encourage a variety of housing (semis, triplex, 4-plex, towns /stacked townhouses, in addition to low-mid -high-rises) to be built.

Keep up the progress DFW

I was lurking on here then, but I definitely remember that. That's kinda the point of this thread too, there has been a lot of improvements in the last 2 decades

Originally Posted by chris08876

In a way, it may be a template for how future U.S. cities will grow and look.

More multi-nodal in nature, with grids of density followed by lower density, with concentration of density around "X" node. Where "X" is several nodes within a city limit but not necessarily centralized.

As crappy as it may sound, I think it might be the future. In other words, the idea of having a central DT with spikes in density, and assuming that all the density will be around that particular node might not be the case as cities develop over time. Instead, distributed over a large distance.

I sort of see a situation like what we see in Toronto, or even Houston, as a model for the U.S. metros and their future development look and patterns.

The suburbs being the key driver of this. Midrise fashion I suppose, although if the need is there, we really should be building high rises out there. High rises away from the zones where land prices are through the roof.

If we sprawl and single family our way in the future, it just will not keep up with projected demand, it won't. We need midrises.

That's how I see it developing as well. Dense nodes connected by together via streetcar or commercial corridors. Here's another neighborhood in Dallas' Oak Cliff area that was recently rezoned, called Downtown Elmwood. This is the first in a series of authorized hearings (rezoning) for the “West Oak Cliff Area Plan”. The city is projecting that this area will see a lot of redevelopment as it spills over from North Oak Cliff (Bishop Arts/Jefferson Blvd area)

Free article: Elmwood Residents Successfully Petition For Walkable Urban Mixed-Use District


This presentation from July 2023 shows examples on slide 23 of what the neighborhood wants. Also slide 13 and 14 shows the nodes that are being rezoned. Many of them are old streetcar nodes that can’t really be utilized because of current zoning.

https://dallascityhall.com/departmen...l_July2023.pdf


This is the old North Cliff streetcar node (one of the areas on slide 13 and 14). Most neighborhoods do not want to be another Bishop Arts. That streetcar node has turned into more of regional draw. People want it to be more neighborhood scaled, which will help even more with car traffic, since it’s not meant to draw people from all over. A major factor is the elimination of parking minimums.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiZpmLh19us

Hampton-Clarendon node starting at 1:28 (one of the areas on slide 13 and 14)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPkayd85dw8

I think I said some of this already, but Dallas really has been urbanizing by taking advantage of pre-WW2 streetcar nodes and reactivating them. Here's Lower Greenville, another prime example of a streetcar node revitalized and made better (with the complete streets redo in the 2010s) as the center or focal point of a growing urban neighborhood. Dallas' streetcar era ended in 1956 and luckily those nodes weren't demolished, the city would be starting from scratch. I heard a urban planner from the City of Dallas describe the city as a rust belt city like a Cleveland (without all the redevelopment during the 70s-90s) surrounded by a sunbelt city like a Phoenix or Jacksonville. Those streetcar nodes are located with close proximity to the CBD within that rust belt-like portion of the city.

Walking tour of Lower Greenville: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hfi3txwbbEE

[shivtim]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

Dallas looks massive. It seems like the best sunbelt candidate to break the sunbelt mold and turn into something pretty walkable and urban. Southern cities are hot too so I can't fault them for being car oriented. Its bicycle network and street grid seem pretty workable too. Arlington looks less pedestrian oriented but Ft Worth seems like it heading in the right direction. I bet the metro becomes the third biggest in our lifetime.

Maybe a tad bit of boosterism here, but I think Atlanta is the city to break the sunbelt mold:
-Already has a heavy rail subway, which no other city in the southeast has (slight asterisk for Miami)
-The Atlanta Beltline is an absolutely gamechanger in terms of walkability and bikeability
-Weather is better. Yes, Atlanta gets hot, but it's nothing like the Texas cities
-Atlanta already has fewer cars per household, and a larger number of car-free households, than most (any?) sunbelt cities, including Dallas, Houston, Austin, Nashville, and Charlotte.
-From what I've seen in following urbanism developments in southern cities, Atlanta is in the lead for large cities in adding bike/ped infrastructure

Also a caveat that I think New Orleans, if classified as a sunbelt city, is already ahead of anything else in the region.

I visited Dallas recently, and while the uptown area is nice, it reminded me more of Buckhead Atlanta, which has pockets of true urbanism but lacks connectivity and many aspects are still car-oriented. If Dallas could better utilize and build from the Katy trail it would make a huge difference.

[R1070]

Originally Posted by shivtim

Maybe a tad bit of boosterism here, but I think Atlanta is the city to break the sunbelt mold:
-Already has a heavy rail subway, which no other city in the southeast has (slight asterisk for Miami)
-The Atlanta Beltline is an absolutely gamechanger in terms of walkability and bikeability
-Weather is better. Yes, Atlanta gets hot, but it's nothing like the Texas cities
-Atlanta already has fewer cars per household, and a larger number of car-free households, than most (any?) sunbelt cities, including Dallas, Houston, Austin, Nashville, and Charlotte.
-From what I've seen in following urbanism developments in southern cities, Atlanta is in the lead for large cities in adding bike/ped infrastructure

Also a caveat that I think New Orleans, if classified as a sunbelt city, is already ahead of anything else in the region.

I visited Dallas recently, and while the uptown area is nice, it reminded me more of Buckhead Atlanta, which has pockets of true urbanism but lacks connectivity and many aspects are still car-oriented. If Dallas could better utilize and build from the Katy trail it would make a huge difference.

Atlanta has potential in small nodes. It just doesn't have the infrastructure in place to grow outward as far as Dallas and Houston do. As for Uptown Dallas, I think it's more of a hybrid of Midtown with some hints of Buckhead when it comes to some office developments. State-Thomas, West Village, etc. would not be found near Buckhead and have better infrastructure than some spots in Midtown Atlanta.

[Trae]

Originally Posted by llamaorama

Uptown Dallas is much more urban than Houston's uptown/galleria area, but it doesn't have the careful sidewalk-level progressive urban planning of somewhere like Denver's Union Station or Seattle's South Lake Union. I've stayed in and walked around those areas on trips for work and there are the little things that are hard to quantify, but it's so different from Texas in those places.

The only thing similar about Uptown Dallas and Uptown Houston is the name, but that name causes people to make comparisons like they are equal neighborhoods. Midtown Houston is to Downtown Houston what Uptown Dallas is to Downtown Dallas.

Although the downtown-uptown Dallas area is small area wise, it does a good job with the urban build and has some walkable lively areas. Dallas has done a great job.

[Trae]

Originally Posted by R1070

Atlanta has potential in small nodes. It just doesn't have the infrastructure in place to grow outward as far as Dallas and Houston do. As for Uptown Dallas, I think it's more of a hybrid of Midtown with some hints of Buckhead when it comes to some office developments. State-Thomas, West Village, etc. would not be found near Buckhead and have better infrastructure than some spots in Midtown Atlanta.

Well Lindbergh is basically right next to Buckhead and connected to it via two heavy rail lines. How do those two Dallas neighborhoods have better infrastructure than Midtown Atlanta when Midtown is an extension of Downtown ATL?

[R1070]

Originally Posted by Trae

Well Lindbergh is basically right next to Buckhead and connected to it via two heavy rail lines. How do those two Dallas neighborhoods have better infrastructure than Midtown Atlanta when Midtown is an extension of Downtown ATL?

Better pedestrian infrastructure than the residential sections of Midtown. Free trolley service, lots of retails and restaurants in very close proximity, both of which have struggled in Midtown.

[ATLMidcity]

Originally Posted by R1070

Better pedestrian infrastructure than the residential sections of Midtown. Free trolley service, lots of retails and restaurants in very close proximity, both of which have struggled in Midtown.

The entirety of Midtown's 1.5 squares miles is littered with high-rise residential towers (something like 50-60 towers). You should visit.



Georgia Institute of Technology and Midtown Atlanta, Georgia Aerial View by David Oppenheimer, on Flickr

[SWDC]

The urbanity of Dallas felt to be close in size to Austin and San Antonio or smaller than Seattle.

Some of the bigger city amenities like the DART were intimidating and ultimately I just started to Uber and will definitely rent a car next time. I’ve been to many places across obviously the U.S., but South America & Europe and rail transit hadn’t been as unpleasant as with Dallas.

Walking around from the Omni or Sheraton just doesnt feel that larger than smaller cities. Walk down hardwood, Ross, Wood, etc. it doesn’t blow one’s socks off. The skyline pictures, yes. It looks quite impressive. There are some pockets of urbanity though like Main & Commerce, a couple cute paseos.

But it can change. Dallas has like the most conversions or something from office to residential. At least the bones and infrastructure are there. Just needs more infill not necessarily just in structures. More pocket parks, residential, grocery stores, the main DART trunk line cleaned up. Less office lobby’s, make the parks more “fun” (less corporate/government, more swings).

I think when the stars align politically, Dallas will just rapidly change and make the core more urban, cohesive, creative. Basically, make Dallas weird. Isn’t that how Austin pretty much turned the corner in their urbanity history? Focusing on people (as opposed to office towers)?

[austlar1]

Originally Posted by SWDC

The urbanity of Dallas felt to be close in size to Austin and San Antonio or smaller than Seattle.

Some of the bigger city amenities like the DART were intimidating and ultimately I just started to Uber and will definitely rent a car next time. I’ve been to many places across obviously the U.S., but South America & Europe and rail transit hadn’t been as unpleasant as with Dallas.

Walking around from the Omni or Sheraton just doesnt feel that larger than smaller cities. Walk down hardwood, Ross, Wood, etc. it doesn’t blow one’s socks off. The skyline pictures, yes. It looks quite impressive. There are some pockets of urbanity though like Main & Commerce, a couple cute paseos.

But it can change. Dallas has like the most conversions or something from office to residential. At least the bones and infrastructure are there. Just needs more infill not necessarily just in structures. More pocket parks, residential, grocery stores, the main DART trunk line cleaned up. Less office lobby’s, make the parks more “fun” (less corporate/government, more swings).

I think when the stars align politically, Dallas will just rapidly change and make the core more urban, cohesive, creative. Basically, make Dallas weird. Isn’t that how Austin pretty much turned the corner in their urbanity history? Focusing on people (as opposed to office towers)?

Yes, but as Crawford once pointedly reminded me, Dallas will NEVER have the urban vitality of Paris. Just so you know.

[SWDC]

Originally Posted by austlar1

Yes, but as Crawford once pointedly reminded me, Dallas will NEVER have the urban vitality of Paris. Just so you know.

I didn’t mention Paris. Just Seattle, San Antonio & Austin.

Being in the core of Dallas feels no bigger than San Antonio nor Austin to me. Seattle on the other hand feels just overall like a much larger city in the core and really just overall. I’d say Dallas even feels a bit lifeless with more 80’s & 90’s era office towers and parking decks leaving to some blank lobby’s, concrete parking decks and still a bit of the Covid feel.

Is Dallas’s infill being overlooked? It’s hard when much smaller cities in TX feels more bustly, more lived in, more people and just feels much less intense than Seattle. I feel like Austin, San Antonio & Seattle are ok comparisons on what Dallas lacks to me that could push it to the next level which is actual infill, parks, etc. The core of Dallas just needs to transform the land usage. The bones are already there .

Too much of it feels like this:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ADcKSxaz2PoKr2rx5?g_st=ic

[bilbao58]

Originally Posted by austlar1

Yes, but as Crawford once pointedly reminded me, Dallas will NEVER have the urban vitality of Paris. Just so you know.

Just so you know: I appreciated the joke.

[R1070]

Originally Posted by ATLMidcity

The entirety of Midtown's 1.5 squares miles is littered with high-rise residential towers (something like 50-60 towers). You should visit.



Georgia Institute of Technology and Midtown Atlanta, Georgia Aerial View by David Oppenheimer, on Flickr

I was referring to the residential sections of Midtown (East of Juniper, Ansley Park). I'm plenty familiar with Atlanta and it's neighborhoods.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by bilbao58

Just so you know: I appreciated the joke.

Paris has the top urbanity in the state
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.6398...8192?entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.6606...8192?entry=ttu

[chris08876]

Originally Posted by austlar1

Yes, but as Crawford once pointedly reminded me, Dallas will NEVER have the urban vitality of Paris. Just so you know.

Maybe its possible. Really what the area needs is density and population.

With a US population of 355 million by 2040, the estimate, all those folks have to live somewhere.

Maybe at some point in the next few years, the U.S. will undergo a massive building boom that will transform all of our cities and be record shattering!

Lets pretend this happens so we feel good about it... even though I doubt it

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

Paris has the top urbanity in the state
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.6398...8192?entry=ttu

This must be the world famous Champs-Elysees: https://maps.app.goo.gl/B934Y8kE6TgJYkxc9

In all seriousness, this isn't a bad looking town center for a city of 24k people:

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.6606...8192?entry=ttu

[Trae]

Originally Posted by R1070

I was referring to the residential sections of Midtown (East of Juniper, Ansley Park). I'm plenty familiar with Atlanta and it's neighborhoods.

Why do you want to include those posh suburban style neighborhoods with the core of Midtown Atlanta? That's not an honest or good argument to make here. For the record, Ansley Park is not included in the Midtown neighborhood, and I don't see what's so different about the lowrise side of Midtown east of Ansley versus some other areas nearby Uptown Dallas/Oak Lawn. They actually look quite similar.