The Barry Hotel saga

[Ruckus]

The controversy and concern surrounding the Barry Hotel will likely continue into 2008, so it is probably best to have a dedicated thread.

A few photos I captured during the summer of 2007 are posted below as well as the link to the complete photo tour.

Photo tour of Riversdale and 20th Street

2000 - A Walk on the West Side: Remembering Riversdale

When architects Tompson, Daniel and Colthurst drew up the plans for Robert J. Barry's new hotel on the corner of Avenue B and 20th Street this was how they envisaged it. The building when it was officially opened on August 1, 1913 was somewhat different from the artist's rendering. The recession and tightening of the money market meant only three of the anticipated stories were built. Prior to construction the old Butler Hotel which had stood on the site was moved down the block to face Avenue B. It was connected to the new building and used as an auxiliary.

Date: 1 Aug 1913.

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The last two photos were pulled from my Parkade tour, found here.

And now for administrative/historical information and discussion.

Originally Posted by molasses

Purchase of the Barry Hotel -- City Council will receive a report from Administration recommending that the City of Saskatoon purchase the Barry Hotel. Due to the potential revitalization of this site to anchor the Riversdale business district, the City has negotiated a sale agreement, subject to City Council approval. The proposed purchase price is $800,000, with the City taking possession after all conditions have been met, on April 30, 2008.

Originally Posted by Country

Not so fast; Barry Hotel demolition put on hold
By Lori Coolican, TheStarPhoenix.com
Published: Monday, December 03, 2007

City council won't decide on a proposal to bulldoze the Barry Hotel for another two weeks.

A motion from Coun. Bev Dubois to have the building demolished was due for debate at Monday night's city council meeting, but was deferred because the city doesn't own the property just yet.

Council recently approved the purchase of the historic hotel on 20th Street, but finalizing the deal has taken longer than expected as civic staff continue to assess the structure.

As a condition of the sale, the hotel's notorious bar was expected to close as of Saturday - but it will remain open until civic staff complete their "due diligence" and conclude the sale sometime before Christmas, city manager Phil Richards told the StarPhoenix last week.

About 45 people who live in the hotel as apartment tenants will be allowed to stay until the building officially changes hands on April 30, due to the ongoing rental housing shortage. The Barry's license to operate as a hotel was suspended last winter because of unspecified health violations.

Both the Saskatoon Heritage Society and the city's own municipal heritage advisory committee have told city council they're opposed to the idea of demolishing the old hotel, which opened in 1913 and is said to have been the birthplace of the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations in 1946.

The city's sale agreement with the hotel's owner stipulates a purchase price of $800,000.

The owner currently owes the city about $140,000 in overdue taxes and utility payments, which will not be forgiven as part of the sale.

© The StarPhoenix 2007

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Barry Hotel has tradition, but is it worth saving?
Les MacPherson, The StarPhoenix
Published: Tuesday, December 04, 2007

Here are four words I thought we'd never hear: "Save the Barry Hotel."

Even so, local heritage buffs want to save the old flophouse. It's an important relic of a bygone era, they say. Built in 1913, the Barry was patronized over the years by some of the city's historic drunks.

The tradition continues. Police were reportedly summoned to the Barry more than 600 times last year. They spent more time in there than some of the regular patrons. If the Barry is to be saved, police should reserve a table in the beverage room so they won't have to make as many trips. Maybe they could put a magistrate in there, too. Offenders could be arrested and convicted without having to miss a round.

Of course, it's naïve to think that tearing down the Barry will eliminate all the associated social problems. But it will absolutely eliminate the social problems on that particular property, which is an encouraging start.

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Originally Posted by circle33

More symptoms than symbol
Randy Burton, The StarPhoenix
Published: Thursday, December 06, 2007

City Coun. Pat Lorje is likely right about the Barry Hotel, but for all the wrong reasons.

She says the Barry must die because it's a symbol of everything that's wrong with Riversdale. Bulldoze the hotel and the area's spirit will rise like a phoenix from the ashes, she says. Leave it standing and it will continue to be a millstone around the neck of the neighbourhood.

Well no, actually. You don't have to tear down the Barry to get rid of the problems. All you have to do is close the bar.
Deprive the drunks of a place to fight and there would be no calls to police from the place. Without a watering hole, the ne'er-do-wells will have to go somewhere else.

It's not like the Barry is the first building in Saskatoon to have an unsavoury reputation. Those with long memories will remember when the Broadway Theatre was the kind of place where guys in raincoats went to watch soft-core porn movies.

Did anyone demand it be razed in order to cleanse the neighbourhood? No. Eventually it closed, later to be reborn as the Broadway we know today, a symbol of alternative cinema and community involvement.

Those with even longer memories will remember Nicholson Bros. motorcycle shop on Third Avenue, which closed after the Nicholsons decamped for Calgary. For awhile, the building was a Greek restaurant, and it became a peep show, right across from city hall. It was eventually zoned out of action and later became part of a business college.

The peep show was hardly a positive symbol for the downtown, but no one felt the need to call in the bulldozer there, either.

The question for the Barry is not what it represents, but whether it's realistic to renovate the building for something else. The answer lies right across the street at the former Albany Hotel.

In it's more notorious days, the Albany was every bit as unsavoury as the Barry, a dodgy place that featured regular fistfights and worse, including an incident in which the bar's bouncer was stabbed to death right outside the bar.

It too, was a symbol of neighbourhood decay, but no one claimed the answer was the wrecking ball. Instead the Albany was converted to a halfway house for federal prisoners designated as no threat to the community.

Today, it's called Meewasinota, a Cree word for "good place to camp." It now houses about 25 people trying to integrate back into the community and there have been no particular problems, in spite of the reservations expressed by the community at the time. You might even call it a symbol of hope and new beginnings.

However, the cost of renovations likely doesn't justify redeveloping the Barry, says the Meewasinota's owner, Dale Beavis, a longtime Saskatoon hotelier. He says it cost something like $600,000 to $700,000 to refurbish the old Albany, and that was seven years ago.

"I think you could factor that by three or more times now," Beavis said in an interview.

If the city was to think about redeveloping the building, it would not only have to deal with cleaning it up and ensuring it meets the proper building codes, but the whole design would likely have to be changed, too.

This is a problem the old Albany didn't have, since Corrections Canada was able to use the small rooms of the hotel.

"We didn't really move any walls at all, so that was relatively inexpensive, but as soon as you have to change things around, that really, really gets expensive," Beavis said.

It might be possible to construct low-income housing in the place, but it might be cheaper to simply build new.

As for the heritage value of the Barry, it was completely rebuilt in 1946 after a major fire, so it's no longer a relic of Saskatoon's boom years but merely a post-war survivor.

Still, Beavis looks at the pending closure of the Barry with mixed feelings. Even though the building could likely be saved, "there's a perception over on 20th that it's not a desirable area. In reality it's changing and it's probably changing faster than the perception.

"If that building was sitting on Second Avenue North, recycling it would probably be the way to go, but there, it's just so risky.

"If I were to say to you today, would you like to get up right now and go have your office in the Barry Hotel? Even if it was a nice new building?

"But you know, I had my office in the Albany back in 2000 when we were renovating and it's a very nice place to be around. There's nothing going on over there that isn't happening everywhere else, but now I'm talking about the daytime.

"But if the night-time drinking crowd went away, the night time wouldn't be that bad either."

It may not be economic to rebuild the Barry Hotel, but to say it could never live down its past is to ignore a lot of Saskatoon history.

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A letter from the local heritage society stating their position.

Originally Posted by joelpiecowye

27 November 2007

Mayor and Councillors
City of Saskatoon

Your Worship and Members of Council,

Re: Barry Hotel

The Saskatoon Heritage Society is deeply concerned about the recent suggestion to demolish the historic Barry Hotel. We are surprised at the speed with which this suggestion has been brought forward and regret that there has been no public discussion regarding options for the building.

During the consultation process for the Local Area Plan for Riversdale, the community came out strongly in support of the retention of its historic building fabric and is intent on building upon the history of the area as it moves forward in its revitalization. The Barry Hotel is a key heritage building in Riversdale and a summary of its history is attached to this letter. Its proposed demolition would seem to ignore the role of the Local Area Plan and flies in the face of the wishes of the community.

Along with the former Albany Hotel, the Barry Hotel acts as a visual anchor at the intersection of Avenue B and 20th Street and forms an important element in the historic streetscape. Its demolition and proposed replacement with a modern structure would destroy the continuity of the streetscape and jeopardize its historic authenticity. Although perhaps difficult to imagine at the moment, even a comparatively straightforward façade renovation would help to bring back the building’s dignity and enable it to assert its rightful presence on the street.

Much has been made of the hotel’s current notoriety, but it must be pointed out that this unfortunate reputation is of fairly recent making and should not be used as an excuse to raze the building. In the same way that the renovation and re-branding of the Broadway Theatre helped in the rejuvenation of Broadway Avenue, so too can the Barry Hotel, in conjunction with the Roxy Theatre, aid in the rejuvenation of 20th Street. We believe that its location close to the Farmer’s Market will help in that process.

Heritage advocates are aware of the importance of appropriate re-use for heritage buildings. At the time the demolition suggestion was made, we understand the community was discussing an interesting proposal for the adaptive re-use of the Barry Hotel. It would be most unfortunate if proponents of that proposal and of any others were unable to bring their suggestions forward.

Finally, we must consider the environmental costs associated with demolition. The environmental sustainability movement is increasingly recognizing the fact that re-using our existing building stock, rather than building new, is the responsible course of action. In the case of the Barry Hotel, we have what appears to be a solid building with potential for re-use; yet there is a suggestion that it be demolished – an expensive and energy-wasting exercise – and the bricks and other material carted away to fill up our landfill. And this at a time when the City is moving forward with its ‘green agenda’!

In fairness to the community of Riversdale and to those who are interested in re-using the Barry Hotel, in respect for the historical integrity of the street, and in respect for the environment, we urge City Council to:

put on hold any proposal to demolish the Barry Hotel; and instead to:
request that Administration, working through the Local Area Plan Committee (LAP) and the LAP process, provide a report of all possible options for the re-use of the building. (The Local Area Plan for Riversdale is currently in draft form and is expected to be released in January or February.)
request Administration to identify known and potential proposals for the adaptive reuse of the building, placing them in the context of the priorities outlined in the LAP and in the City’s strategic plan and provide a report back to Council
It is time to give the Barry Hotel a fair chance. With the right owner and an appropriate adaptive re-use, it has the potential to provide the catalyst for change down 20th Street and become a symbol of rejuvenation for Riversdale.

Yours sincerely,
Victoria Neufeldt,
President

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Preserving Barry for historical links to FSIN unjustified
Tyrone Tootoosis, Special to The StarPhoenix
Published: Friday, December 14, 2007

Following is the viewpoint of the writer, a resident of Saskatoon.

Re: Controversy checks in at Barry (SP, Dec. 3). It was the mid-1940s and there were three First Nations treaty-based groups operating in Saskatchewan.

The first was the League of Indians of Western Canada, led by Nimoshum -- my grandfather, John Tootoosis. The second group was the Treaty Protective Association led by Henry John, and the third was the Association of Saskatchewan Indians, led by Joe Dreaver.

Newly elected premier Tommy Douglas and his CCF government had a real concern for Saskatchewan Indians and Douglas felt that these three groups should unite in order to more effectively and cohesively lobby for treaty and land rights, self-determination and social benefits that would equal what the rest of society was receiving. Douglas even went so far as to meet with Indian people to encourage them to unite.

In the fall of 1945, when the League of Indians of Western Canada held its annual meeting in Duck Lake, Tootoosis invited the two leaders from the other two associations, John and Dreaver, to attend. And it was at that Duck Lake conference that these three organizations initially discussed and agreed upon the idea of amalgamation.

However, it must be said that our leadership in 1945 found it to be a particularly strange experience to have a non-First Nation politician, the premier of Saskatchewan no less, strongly encouraging and publicly supporting the organization of Saskatchewan's First Nations. Another little-known historical fact is that Douglas offered to finance this conference.

As had been planned and agreed upon by the three organizations, the meeting was held at Saskatoon's Barry Hotel on Feb. 24, 1946, and a new organization emerged-- the Union of Saskatchewan Indians. Tootoosis was elected president of the USI and John Gambler the vice-president.

In my archival visual collection, I have an aged and worn photograph of the founding chiefs of the Union of Saskatchewan Indians. This group picture of the conference delegates was taken on Feb. 24, 1946, in the Barry Hotel's conference room. Some of these leaders are wearing uniforms that were given to chiefs and had been passed down from the time of the signing of the treaties in the 1870s.

The USI lasted for 13 strong years until it was reorganized and renamed as the Federation of Saskatchewan Indians in 1958, with Tootoosis as its first president.

With all due respect to the Saskatoon Heritage Society, I believe there are other buildings in Saskatoon far more worthy of saving than the Barry Hotel. I appreciate history very much but, given the notorious history of this bar, I strongly question if anyone has any warm and pleasant memories that flow from the Barry Hotel.

No doubt the hotel was very nice at one time, but that was several decades ago and probably before the fire of 1946. Many First Nations people have lost much inside this building, including life and limb. The place is synonymous with dysfunction.

Coun. Bev Dubois says: "That building is not in good shape. It is very disgusting inside, and I'm sure, it's even more disgusting than we know."

I'm not going to argue that point, as it has been approximately 25 years since I last saw the inside of the Barry. It wasn't very nice then and I have no reason to believe that it's any better now.

If the building's owner and the heritage society were aware of its historical significance, they should have ensured that the hotel didn't become what it is today, with a bad rap as a rank skid row bar with a deadly past.

There's no rehabilitation for such a place.

City police are summoned daily to the Barry, with the expectation of having to deal with extremely violent or illegal activities.

I would respectfully suggest that anyone who wants to save the Barry by capitalizing on its historical connections to First Nations governance be gently reminded that the founding site of the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations actually should be Duck Lake, not the Barry Hotel.

Source

That's the current level of debate, City Council will soon determine the fate of the Barry Hotel in the coming days/weeks.

[Only The Lonely..]

Shit...I think it was cheaper to drink at the Bessborough. You guys in Toon town are big spenders.

[Ruckus]

Originally Posted by Only The Lonely..

Shit...I think it was cheaper to drink at the Bessborough. You guys in Toon town are big spenders.

Well, according to Les MacPherson (local columnist) "the Barry was patronized over the years by some of the city's historic drunks.", the price of cold beer must be directly related to that statement. The Bess' was never patronized by our historic drunks (e.g. less trendy than the Barry ), so the price is more reasonable...well that's my theory

[newflyer]

Wow... Calgary levels buildings with 10 times the character of that hotel without even a thought.... cowtown wouldn't blink for a second.

Good for Saskatoon for evaluating what buildings it wants to protect.

My feelings is if its a viable building and doesn't nessesarily block a major project I would lean towards keeping it. Character buildings need to be protected. But than again this building isn't what I consider an amazing building... so it comes down to whats best for the area.

[Ruckus]

Originally Posted by newflyer

Wow... Calgary levels buildings with 10 times the character of that hotel without even a thought.... cowtown wouldn't blink for a second.

Good for Saskatoon for evaluating what buildings it wants to protect.

My feelings is if its a viable building and doesn't nessesarily block a major project I would lean towards keeping it. Character buildings need to be protected. But than again this building isn't what I consider an amazing building... so it comes down to whats best for the area.

Yeah, the Barry isn't the most attractive (IMO).

I'm going with the argument that demolition is not only costly for whomever wishes to develop the property (I suppose they'll do their own analysis), but the building is quite a significant symbol for the area (for good or bad) and one which requires a positive approach, not more neglect or complete destruction.

If the City wishes to destroy the Barry, they might as well destroy several more buildings along 20th Street and Riversdale and try to build up a new identity for the entire area, for some that is a stretch, but thats my position.

[macca]

In my mind it is not the historic character of the building, nor the architectural quality (to me it has little of either), but rather the type of building it is that makes it valuable and worth preserving. The fact that is built of solid materials (ie. brick), the fact that is built to the sidewalk with no setback; these are features which rarely found in most modern buildings. Buildings help to shape and create community, as well as define public/private space and the outdoor 'room' that is the street scape. We are sorely lacking in this city in this type of building. A hole in the ground will not improve the neighborhood, nor will a gravel parking lot, and nor, despite what some city councillors/developers may tell you, will a modern 1 storey piece of junk made from disposable materials with a sea of parking in front. 20th street does need a 7-11 to enliven or improves its reputation. A sea of oil stains, chewed gum and spittle are hardly the adornments this area is lacking.

Refurbish it: commercial/office on the ground floor, condos above. Saskatoon has extremely high retail rental rates, and their is clearly a market for condo conversions.

[1ajs]

if theres plans for a big office complex demolish it and let progress come but if its for a silly parkade or a surface lot leave it alone.

if anything that building cold use a difrent color of brick.. say red

[joelpiecowye]

i agree newflyer it isn't the most beautiful building but it does have history it was built in August 1, 1913 and was nearly burnt badly by a fire in 1946, i guess many people believe that the barry could literally save riversdale, kinda what happened in broadway with the broadway theatre and if you knew used to play porn movies. Now broadway is one of the finest places in saskatoon.
I guess many people want the barry to stay because it could save riversdale like i said before. The area could be beautiful and it does have many historical buildings like the Roxy which was recently had a major reno

Albany Hotel
Adilman Building
back then

now

Landa House
St. Thomas Wesley United Church

Little Chief Service Station

That is just a few of them.
I believe if the barry is gonna be saved we need a petetion and if we want riversdale to be saved we need more police in the area.

[Ruckus]

^ Great examples of reuse on 20th Street

[Ruckus]

Barry Hotel Sale Falls Through
Written by Evan Wright - 600 Action News-Local First
Monday, 17 December 2007

The City of Saskatoon will not be taking ownership of the Barry Hotel. Environmental testing on the building failed.

That was one of the stipulations required for the city to take ownership.

There's no word on what happens next with the Barry Hotel.

Source

[1ajs]

lol they found a way to back out did they lol hopefuly someone can stain that brick red and make it a nifty space say artist vilige and pub? just an idea...

[Dalreg]

Blow the place up. If no one wants to own/occupy the space why spend millions trying to do anything with it.

We can always use more parking spots!

[Ruckus]

City nixes Barry sale
Environmental study of building fails to satisfy civic officials
Lori Coolican, The StarPhoenix
Published: Tuesday, December 18, 2007

The City of Saskatoon won't buy the Barry Hotel after all.

A proposed sale agreement that would have seen the historic 20th Street hotel turned over to the city for demolition or redevelopment at a cost of $800,000 will not go ahead because of new information about the state of the property, city manager Phil Richards told city council Monday night.

Richards added a brief report about the deal's collapse to city council's agenda just minutes before the regular meeting got underway.

The sale agreement was contingent on a "Phase 1 environmental assessment satisfactory to the city," which is a common practice with older buildings.

"Upon completion of the environmental assessment, the city was not satisfied with the environmental condition of the property and the costs related thereto. As a result, the city did not complete the sale," Richards said.

He did not provide council with details of the hotel's condition and no councillors asked for more information about the environmental problems.

The only comment came from Coun. Pat Lorje, whose ward includes the hotel and who had hoped the city would immediately close its notorious bar and demolish the structure sometime next year.

Heritage groups were preparing to press the city for an alternative to the wrecking ball, such as an adaptive reuse of the building in keeping with the ongoing redevelopment of Riversdale.

Businesses in the area had expressed optimism about the city's plan to purchase the hotel, which has long been considered a magnet for crime and alcohol-related social problems that drag down property values.

"I'm sure this will come as a huge disappointment to the residents and retailers of this area," Lorje told council.

She made a point of asking Richards whether the hotel's current owner, Shoshana Goldstein, was given a copy of the results from the city's environmental assessment. As far as he knows, Goldstein has one, Richards said.

lcoolican@sp.canwest.com

Source

[psych1]

Heard a story on the news suggeting a certain councillor may have interfered with a private sale of the building by calling a potential buyer to say that she would vote against a liquor license if the sale went through. What the hell was she thinking and why is she so obsessed with seeing this building die? There are admittedly problems with the Barry and with Riversdale, but eliminating the Barry will not eliminate thsoe problems in and of itself. I wonder why someone would sacrifice their political reputation for a symbol? Of course this is largely rumour at this point, and the building owner sounds like a real piece of work herself, so I don't know how much weight her claims hold, but the story seemed reasonably well researched by CBC radio.

[circle33]

Here's the story: (though I'm pretty sure Phil Richards isn't a "she")

City councillor sabotaged Saskatoon hotel deal, owner says

The owner of the Barry Hotel in Saskatoon is claiming that a city councillor sabotaged a recent deal to sell the hotel to Alberta investors.

Shoshana Goldstein also claims that the city is using a recent environmental assessment of the property as a ploy to scare off buyers so it can take over the hotel, which owes $144,000 in back taxes.

This week, the city walked away from a separate deal to buy the 94-year-old property itself. The city said wasn't happy with the results of an environmental assessment of the building but won't reveal its findings.

The hotel has some obvious problems, including an out-of-service boiler, peeling paint and pipes that have seen better days, but Goldstein says it's no different than other old buildings.

Goldstein said she thinks the city is trying to scare away prospective buyers so it can take over the hotel on the cheap.

"They want me to shut down this place and walk away so they can come in and take it and demolish it and have the property," she said. "This is exactly what they're doing; they want to steal it from me."

Goldstein has a copy of the environmental assessment. She says the concerns raised relate to asbestos and lead paint in the old building.
Continue Article

It may be run down, but public health and the fire department inspectors say there's nothing in the hotel that places the tenants living there or workers in danger.

Goldstein said she had an Alberta hotel owner lined up to buy the Barry, but that fell through when city councillor Pat Lorje phoned the buyer, Grand Prairie's Earl Heltay, and sabotaged the deal.

"There was a phone call made by a city councillor to [us] stating that she would oppose our liquor license and make it very difficult for us to do business," Heltay said. "When a politician phones and tells you that, you get a little scared and you back off."

Lorje confirmed that she called Heltay, as a city councillor, and said she'd oppose granting the new owners a liquor licence because the neighborhood would be better off without a bar in the Barry.

City manager Phil Richards says the administration can't control councillors, even when they involve themselves in business deals the city is negotiating.

"That's the environment we live in," she said. "We're administration, and we do what council instructs us, but we as an administration have no power over individual councillors or the mayor."

Goldstein says that the hotel is still for sale, and she's actively looking for a new buyer.

CBC

[psych1]

Originally Posted by circle33

Here's the story: (though I'm pretty sure Phil Richards isn't a "she")

But Pat Lorje is. As far as we know...

Ms. Lorje is the "she" I was referring to.

[psych1]

Originally Posted by circle33

Lorje confirmed that she called Heltay, as a city councillor, and said she'd oppose granting the new owners a liquor licence because the neighborhood would be better off without a bar in the Barry.

City manager Phil Richards says the administration can't control councillors, even when they involve themselves in business deals the city is negotiating.

This is highly questionable behaviour from an ethical perspective, even if it is not strictly prohibitted. Since the city obviously had an interest in the property, no public representative (Councillor Lorje) should act in a manner which could even be perceived to afect the market value of that property, since the city had an interest in purchasing it. If the buyer had contacted her to inquire and she had given him the same news, maybe it would have been simply being forthright (although I wonder if I called and asked how she intended to vote on a particular issue, if she would be forthright enough to tell me). Even if she had announced it in the media, it might be perceived as simply an attempt to be forthright, but she called him directly. Therefore, it is hard to not see her actions as a threat or to imagine she had any other intent than to scare him away from the purchase. Scaring away a potential buyer has an effect on the market value of the property and Ms. Lorje, as a representative of the city, had a vested interest in that market value, therefore what she did was a conflict of interest.

[circle33]

Originally Posted by psych1

But Pat Lorje is. As far as we know...

Ms. Lorje is the "she" I was referring to.

I was referring not to your comments, but rather the news item which clearly refers to Richards as a she.

Not taking shots at you at all. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[psych1]

Originally Posted by circle33

I was referring not to your comments, but rather the news item which clearly refers to Richards as a she.

Not taking shots at you at all. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Sorry I misunderstood you I didn't notice the gener bending in the article.I wan't really bothered by it anyway, but wanted to clarify that I know my Pat's. I am however bothered by her behaviour. As someone who strongly believes we need some representation from the left (as I beleive we need representation from the right) on council, it pisses me off when the more left leaning councillors we have, do or say something stupid to justify criticism of them and the left in general.

[Ruckus]

What a strange twist.

I looked up Earl Heltay, and he and/or his family own the Arlington Hotel in Red Deer and the York Hotel (bought Sept. 2006) in Grand Prairie.


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I'm not sure if Heltay was committed to purchasing the Barry, but I am curious as to what he had planned for it...same old same old (bar)

As for Councilor Lorje, she is vocal, gutsy (IMO) and obviously knows more than the rest of us. Bars will exist on 20th Street, but I guess we want a certain type of bar and specific types of patrons (e.g. see Broadway).

I'd rather not see the same old same old activity at the Barry, but I also don't want to see it demolished. I suppose the idea of condo conversions for 20th Street is a hard sell for some developers, I think people would pay for them, but how much??? One and Two bedrooms from $160,000; Three bedroom from $230,000...I wonder how many units could be created with the two existing levels? Does it have an elevator or just stairs?