Green Line LRT - $4.6 Billion Project

[polishavenger]

Somehow Vancouver and Toronto are able to build required infrastructure such as subways which are expensive, so what is it about Calgary that cant?

Construction costs are not coming down any time soon, so delaying the project wont save money, just result in an underutilized line that will become as self fulfilling prophecy that mass transit is not a good investment.

[countastic]

I hate to say this, especially as someone who wants a massive shift in investment into mass transit in this city and province, but the latest descoping of the Green Line, suggests the City Council and the Green Line planners have lost the plot.

Moreover, the province would be fully justified into withdrawing their funding until the City can create a plan for the Green Line that at least achieves 1 or its original primary goals which was providing a mass transit service to residents of the deep SE and/or the North Central communities of the city.

Building tunnels downtown and underground station for a line that will at best have ridership of about 1/10 of the current red and blue lines is madness.

It was questionable, back in 2015, when the Green Line was a 42 km, 25 station project with projected ridership of 149,000 riders per day, to go underground for a low floor light rail service.

It's just wildly irresponsible to continue on with spending 6 billion dollars for 7 stations? Only reaching communities within a 15 minute bus ride from the core?

[countastic]

Originally Posted by polishavenger

Somehow Vancouver and Toronto are able to build required infrastructure such as subways which are expensive, so what is it about Calgary that cant?

Construction costs are not coming down any time soon, so delaying the project wont save money, just result in an underutilized line that will become as self fulfilling prophecy that mass transit is not a good investment.

The bigger question is why was it ever a requirement for the Green Line to go underground? It was never expected, even when fully built out, to have ridership numbers, frequency of trains, etc... close to the Red Line. Even back when it was conceived as a 42 km, 25 station project, stretching from North Pointe to Seton it was projected to have ridership numbers of about 5,000 more people than than the Blue Line currently has (144,000 riders per day).

Once the city and it's planners had decided that they were unwilling to build out the Green line at street level downtown, even though it would have been completely feasible (see Sydney, Australia or Paris, France and lots of other cities that have rolled out new low floor tram lines in the last decade), this hastily conceived project was doomed at the outset.

The only reason to go underground would be if they had a vision of fully integrating all the lines (Red, Blue, Green) and share a common rolling stock/stations downtown, etc...) But that was never the vision on the table.

[Pegasus]

Originally Posted by Pegasus

Sounds like it is time to completely re-evaluate this project, especially as both the Alberta and Federal governments have indicated that a significant scope change will result in a funding review.

"In a letter obtained by Global News, Minster Devin Dreeshen told Calgary’s mayor the province’s $1.53-billion share of the funding is contingent on the Green Line’s final design “fully integrating” with the province’s rail master plan, which is set to be released next year." [Global News May 10, 2024]

". . . federal Housing and Infrastructure minister Sean Fraser said the federal government would need a revised business case by Aug. 15 to confirm its funding for the line." [Global News July 31, 2024]

Also need to change the name of this thread ($4.6 Billion Project) . . .

"The Government of Alberta’s share of funding for Calgary’s Green Line LRT project is in jeopardy, according to a letter from the province to Calgary mayor Jyoti Gondek . . . "The Green Line is fast becoming a multi-billion dollar boondoggle that will serve very few Calgarians,” Dreeshen said in the letter."

"According to Dreeshen, the provincial government will look to contract an independent third party to provide the province and city with “alternative costed proposals” to integrate the Green Line with the existing Red and Blue lines along 7 Avenue, and to a future “Grand Central Station” near the site of Calgary’s new arena."

https://globalnews.ca/news/10731665/...e-lrt-funding/

[MalcolmTucker]

The city should look at this as a gift horse. If the province wants to deliver this project the province is welcome to.

[Zmonkey]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The city should look at this as a gift horse. If the province wants to deliver this project the province is welcome to.

The province should take over and change the scope. Move it all above ground. Cut the costs and deliver what is suppose to be built.

[RobD]

Originally Posted by Zmonkey

The province should take over and change the scope. Move it all above ground. Cut the costs and deliver what is suppose to be built.

Would above ground (elevated) tracks work in the downtown core with the Plus15 network? If it were at grade level the same as along the existing 7th Avenue corridor, this would only add to the traffic congestion.

Underground at least through core to the Stampede grounds seems the most sensible to me and then elevated from there. The elevated Skytrain system in Vancouver outside the downtown core works very well.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by RobD

Would above ground (elevated) tracks work in the downtown core with the Plus15 network?

Yes. It would just be high. like 13m from ground to rail. Needs to be that high to clear the CPR anyways.

[Zmonkey]

Originally Posted by RobD

Would above ground (elevated) tracks work in the downtown core with the Plus15 network? If it were at grade level the same as along the existing 7th Avenue corridor, this would only add to the traffic congestion.

Underground at least through core to the Stampede grounds seems the most sensible to me and then elevated from there. The elevated Skytrain system in Vancouver outside the downtown core works very well.

Going underground is why this is not moving forward. The cost to go underground is driving the big jumps in cost. It will never happen. It will be the most expensive transit line per passenger in Canada at its current costs if it goes under ground.

[RobD]

Originally Posted by Zmonkey

Going underground is why this is not moving forward. The cost to go underground is driving the big jumps in cost. It will never happen. It will be the most expensive transit line per passenger in Canada at its current costs if it goes under ground.

The major transit systems in most cities are underground in the core area. I think that to go elevated in Calgary's core or at grade level is not a good solution in the long term.

Even Edmonton went underground in the core. Vancouver and Seattle are underground in the core. The new LRT in Ottawa has four underground stations in the core.

Anything other than underground through Calgary's downtown core is a mistake IMO.

[YYCguys]

Originally Posted by RobD

The major transit systems in most cities are underground in the core area. I think that to go elevated in Calgary's core or at grade level is not a good solution in the long term.

Even Edmonton went underground in the core. Vancouver and Seattle are underground in the core. The new LRT in Ottawa has four underground stations in the core.

Anything other than underground through Calgary's downtown core is a mistake IMO.

I’m not thrilled about the tunnel plans being ditched either, but I’ve visited both Dublin and Edinburgh, both of which have ground level LRT through their downtowns, and as far as I know, no tunnels, so it’s manageable. And if that’s what it’s going to take to get this line built on budget, then I guess we just have to accept it and plan for the future.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by RobD

Vancouver and Seattle are underground in the core.

I agree with everything you say. Just pointing out that Vancouver took over old train tracks for their initial Skytrain route through downtown. That was a happy coincidence.

[countastic]

Originally Posted by Zmonkey

The province should take over and change the scope. Move it all above ground. Cut the costs and deliver what is suppose to be built.

If oil prices remain low, the province is looking at 6 billion deficit next year, so nothing will be built in the foreseeable future.

That said, if the prices recover, the only question is what donors are influencing what decisions. It seems like the Seton/Mahogany developers will press forward for the SE leg - which should be affordable - especially if they avoid some complex integration into the core.

Why the SE line isn't running at surface level on loop around 6th and 5th Avenue (like the original plan for the BRT) downtown remains a puzzle to me? That would be far more affordable than tunnels or even elevated.

As for the North, it sound likes they re-opening the Deerfoot Valley LRT plans, abandoned by the city years ago. An Airdrie, far North suburb, and Airport connection before joining up with the Blue Line? I'm a little more skeptical on this one, but I'd take anything over nothing.

That said, it would still be possible to build a low cost BRT to service the Beddington, Inner City communities for pretty cheap.