[psych1]

Originally Posted by Greco Roman

I guess some would argue that because the "white devil" had such a profound effect on aborigional lifestyles, they are the most horrific race on the planet. .

THis is a straw man and you know it. Sure you might find some nut who espouses this position, but it is quite possible to argue that "white" society has had a significnt negative impact on First Nation Culture, without any claims as to us being "devil"s. We made many of the same mistakes others (including First Nations made or would have made were they in our shoes), but that doesn't negate the fact that it happened and the force that triggered many of todays crises was white settlement. Or are you going to argue that reserves, poor parenting and substance abuse would have existed had North America not been "discovered" by Europeans, which of course would imply that there is some inherent genetic weakness in First Nations people? That is the only other direction I can see your argument leading. Therefore, if our ancestors played a part in it and we have some power to compensate for that, it is incumbent on us to do so.

Originally Posted by Greco Roman

But why are aborigional people buying into the excuse that they should be supported for the rest of their lives?

I'm sure some are and I'm sure some don't. We are all supported for the rest of our lives. We have police a health care system, an educational system and social services all paid for through communal money. You might not like that, but the majority does or it would cease to exist (sometimes the Right forgets that). Therefore, we are not arguing whether support should exist, but at what level, and I think the argument I made previously supports a higher level of support for First Nations based on historical deprivation. Deprivation carries across generations. Of course there are the fortunate (or strong) few who can overcome any obstacele, but I would argue they are few and far between in any race.

Originally Posted by Greco Roman

These people may have social issues, but do they not have brains too? Of course they do. They are human beings. And as intelligent human beings, why are there not more of them willing and able to attend school, get an education and make something of their lives? There are resources to help them out, so use them. Yes, having pride in your culture is one thing, but what about pride and self-confidence in your ownself? I believe this is just as important.

Where does pride come from? Do you summon it purely through will power? I would like to hear you argue that. Pride comes from historical experience and information. In this respect, First Nations people fight a losing battle from day one. Even if you do not consider yourself racist, you would have to admit that racism exists and that First Nations people get treated worse on average than white people. Even the person with the strongest pride will have that pride shaken if they are criticised/judged enough. Otherwise things like interogation would never work.

Originally Posted by Greco Roman

If you want to change your life, you have to be willing to change yourself and quit relying on others to a) provide for you or b) blame for your issues and downfalls in life. Can you imagine if everyone expected everyone else to provide for them because they blame all their issues on them? People ultimately need to take responsability for themselves. Once the aborigional population does this, I am confident they will feel much better as individuals, and as a culture.

Another straw man. This doesn't have to be either/or. I don't think anyone would argue that a degree of dependence has developed, but how does independence develop. Are you born with it? No, you have support while you need it and it is gradually withdrawn as you become self reliant. I am not meaning to imply as you will likely suggest I am, that First Nations people are somehow less competant in general, but that their society at the moment is. That is also not to say that their culture is inherently weak, just that it has encountered circumstances for which it was ultimately unprepared to cope with. Just for argument sake, you might say that western culture is also approaching sich a time. We are woefully unequipped to deal with things like fundamentalist terrorism and dramatic environmental change, and our day of struggles may lie ahead. Who knows, maybe we will be able to learn something from traditional First Nations culture in dealing with these things.

Originally Posted by Greco Roman

It's time to stop the blame game. I for one am tired of beating this dead horse issue that never goes anywhere positive.

Its not about blame, it is about responsability. Responsability arises from culpability and ability. I am not only responsable for things I directly caused. For example, do you have some responsability to help an elderly person who has fallen in the street if you are right beside them, even if you didn't knock them down? I think so. Perhaps you are a dogmatic utilitarian and don't agree, but I suspect you would be in the minority. I would therefore argue that we do have the ability to assist First Nations People and therefore a responsability to do so even if we do not accept "blame". I have argued above that we do have some culpability, much of it inheretted, but even if you discard that argument, you cannot claim we have no responsability. You can argue as I think you are implying that our way of helping has done more harm than good, but if you are doing something with a good purpose and decide it is not working, do you throw the baby out with the bathwater and throw up your hands (let them take care of themselves), or do you try to see how things have gone wrong and come up with a different strategy. We have only been starting to listen to First Nations People for the last 15 - 20 years or so, if at all, and so I think it is a little early to think there are no potential solutions to be found through the new processes coming into place (e.g. new treaties signed in BC, urban reserves etc). Rememebr the structures that are causing so many problems, such as band governance, are not new and were not set up by First Nations People. We can't just wash our hands of this situation and we don't need to.

Jeez, I said a lot for someone who suggested Quimby was beating his head against the wall.