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montydawg Aug 17, 2018 4:37 PM
Gultch/CIM Group Development
 
Gulch plans knock passenger rail off track

This concerns me....

https://threadatl.tumblr.com/post/17...rail-off-track

montydawg Aug 17, 2018 4:38 PM
more info....
Quote:
Originally Posted by montydawg (Post 7885180)
The strip of land that goes under the CNN deck you are alluding to does not have a parcel- it appears to be part of an old road bed and connects directly with the spring street land, however, perhaps there is a mistake in the records. Cooperation with CSX and NS is obvious since commuter rail will not work without their right away and a usage agreement. Since I had some time, I put together another zoomed in land record pic. It appears 'Fairco' is some sort of land trust- the address suggests a lawyer's office. Who knows what entity actually owns that land. The pink triangle at the bottom is the 5 points MARTA station.

Since the 'Fairco' and 'Harpagon' land is the CSX right of way for their active rail line, I think several rail platforms could easily be built on the land to the south of that strip. The air rights could be used for a Bus terminal and other commercial uses. I'm sure CSX would sell their air rights for the project, however, they probably will want to preserve as much of their rail corridor as possible- and it appears what is needed is already owned by public entities at this point.

http://primalease.com/commercial/gultch2.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlanta3000 (Post 8054036)

montydawg Aug 17, 2018 4:39 PM
https://www.myajc.com/rf/image_lowre...ation-Plan.jpg

Source: https://www.myajc.com/business/desig...kt5kZJFnheuGL/

Atlanta3000 Aug 17, 2018 5:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by montydawg (Post 8284658)
Gulch plans knock passenger rail off track

This concerns me....

https://threadatl.tumblr.com/post/17...rail-off-track
Well it shouldn't MD. The MMPT was estimated to cost $1.5 Billion in 2013. So it is probably now close to $2+ Billion today. For what, a consolidated transportation hub? You could potentially make a business case for the MMPT if Amtrak had significant ridership in Atlanta. As you can see in the diagram below, ridership in Atlanta is really low and it doesn't even crack the Top 20 cities where Amtrak has service. Why is ridership so low? Because Atlanta is not in a densely populated geography. Service between cities via Amtrak in Atlanta can take several hours to days to reach the final destination. Not mention the cost is equivalent or more than the cost of a plane ticket.

So ask yourself if a MMPT at $2 Billion makes sense or would it make more sense to spent $2 Billion expanding MARTA or putting mass transit on the Beltline? To me it is a no brainer.

https://www.railpassengers.org/all-a...ip-statistics/
https://i.imgur.com/CVDZtvX.png

montydawg Aug 17, 2018 5:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlanta3000 (Post 8284704)
Well it shouldn't MD. The MMPT was estimated to cost $1.5 Billion in 2013. So it is probably now close to $2+ Billion today. For what, a consolidated transportation hub?
I see the MMPT is 60% about commuter rail, and 10% about Amtrak. There is a large commuter bus component, but that is being planned next to Phillips Arena just north of Centennial Olympic Park Drive. Any big city worth their salt has commuter rail, and this is really the only ideal location for it, in my opinion. Amtrak can locate their station along the 85 corridor near a MARTA station, and that would not be a huge issue.

Atlanta3000 Aug 17, 2018 5:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by montydawg (Post 8284729)
I see the MMPT is 60% about commuter rail, and 10% about Amtrak. There is a large commuter bus component, but that is being planned next to Phillips Arena just north of Centennial Olympic Park Drive. Any big city worth their salt has commuter rail, and this is really the only ideal location for it, in my opinion. Amtrak can locate their station along the 85 corridor near a MARTA station, and that would not be a huge issue.
I am going to sound dumb here, so buckle up. When you say commuter rail, do you mean MARTA?

Street Advocate Aug 17, 2018 5:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlanta3000 (Post 8284736)
I am going to sound dumb here, so buckle up. When you say commuter rail, do you mean MARTA?
Commuter would be an expansion of of layer on top of MARTA. Think if/when more counties buy into transit and have regional rail lines (think CTA compared w/Metra in Chicago or MARC & VRE compared w/METRO for DC)


edit: of this transit mockup from atl reddit users, the peach lines are considered commuter. spoiling because it's massive:

Atlanta3000 Aug 17, 2018 6:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Street Advocate (Post 8284756)
Commuter would be an expansion of of layer on top of MARTA. Think if/when more counties buy into transit and have regional rail lines (think CTA compared w/Metra in Chicago or MARC & VRE compared w/METRO for DC)


edit: of this transit mockup from atl reddit users, the peach lines are considered commuter. spoiling because it's massive:
I just spent 10 minutes looking for the "Peach Line" or in my mind a line that is "peach" in color. I finally realized the "Peach Line" is actually PINK in color.

I am still not clear what commuter rail is? Will the Peach Line not use the same transportation tech as our current MARTA lines? Are you saying Commuter Rail is different from Heavy Rail? Is there any logistical or technical reason a Commuter Rail line cannot be incorporated into the Five Points Station?

montydawg Aug 17, 2018 6:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlanta3000 (Post 8284807)
I just spent 10 minutes looking for the "Peach Line" or in my mind a line that is "peach" in color. I finally realized the "Peach Line" is actually PINK in color.

I am still not clear what commuter rail is? Will the Peach Line not use the same transportation tech as our current MARTA lines? Are you saying Commuter Rail is different from Heavy Rail? Is there any logistical or technical reason a Commuter Rail line cannot be incorporated into the Five Points Station?
Chicago:
http://images.metro-magazine.com/pos...rak-russ-7.jpg

New York:
https://cbsnewyork.files.wordpress.c...20_1.jpg?w=420

Boston:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...I8xWiNkQO-M1iA

Commuter rail can cross roads like freight railroads, and goes much longer distances than heavy rail. It is also much cheaper than Heavy Rail. The trains can share track with freight trains, and stations tend to be very simple platforms, rather than what you see for Heavy rail stations. Headways (time between trains) tends to be 15-30 minutes, so you have to plan on being at the station at a particular time instead of just showing up.

alco89 Aug 17, 2018 6:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlanta3000 (Post 8284807)
I just spent 10 minutes looking for the "Peach Line" or in my mind a line that is "peach" in color. I finally realized the "Peach Line" is actually PINK in color.

I am still not clear what commuter rail is? Will the Peach Line not use the same transportation tech as our current MARTA lines? Are you saying Commuter Rail is different from Heavy Rail? Is there any logistical or technical reason a Commuter Rail line cannot be incorporated into the Five Points Station?
Ok come on Atl3k. Think of it as Chicago:

MARTA = Chicago's CTA rail
Fictional Atlanta commuter rail = Chicago's METRA

Different rail technology. And remember, the MMPT would not jsut be for commuter rail, but for all for of tranport. Five Points wouldn't fully be able to handle that (although it could in the interim).

Atlanta3000 Aug 17, 2018 7:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alco89 (Post 8284839)
Ok come on Atl3k. Think of it as Chicago:

MARTA = Chicago's CTA rail
Fictional Atlanta commuter rail = Chicago's METRA

Different rail technology. And remember, the MMPT would not jsut be for commuter rail, but for all for of tranport. Five Points wouldn't fully be able to handle that (although it could in the interim).
Just so we are clear, I am a moron with respect to this subject (and several others, but that is neither here nor there).

So are you and the others saying without a MMPT we cannot have Commuter rail service? There is no way to incorporate Commuter rail into our existing infrastructure/MARTA stations? Therefore, without a MMPT Cobb and Gwinnett cannot have Commuter rail?

Street Advocate Aug 17, 2018 7:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlanta3000 (Post 8284848)
Just so we are clear, I am a moron with respect to this subject (and several others, but that is neither here nor there).

So are you and the others saying without a MMPT we cannot have Commuter rail service? There is no way to incorporate Commuter rail into our existing infrastructure/MARTA stations? Therefore, without a MMPT Cobb and Gwinnett cannot have Commuter rail?
We could expand the existing HRT system (and should to certain parts of Gwinnett and Cobb at the least), but generally the commuter rail would be leveraging different rail lines for even greater extents. Commuter is generally 10+ miles out and anywhere from 30-well over 100mph.

IMO, if Atlanta does commuter rail, I hope we do it right with newer/more efficient technologies. Would be yet another draw from other regions of the US, where their infrastructure is older and in disrepair ours could be some of the newest/best in the country.

cabasse Aug 17, 2018 8:18 PM
commuter rail usually runs under its own power (like amtrak or a freight train) - excepting a few lines in NY and chicago with overhead power - but the track gauge is more similar to standard freight rail then a heavy rail metro like marta. frequency/headways are usually longer with commuter vs metro, too.


the original atl commuter rail plan:


https://i1.wp.com/saportareport.com/...rail.gif?ssl=1

Newnan_Eric Aug 20, 2018 4:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cabasse (Post 8284935)
commuter rail usually runs under its own power (like amtrak or a freight train) - excepting a few lines in NY and chicago with overhead power - but the track gauge is more similar to standard freight rail then a heavy rail metro like marta. frequency/headways are usually longer with commuter vs metro, too.


the original atl commuter rail plan:


https://i1.wp.com/saportareport.com/...rail.gif?ssl=1
Correct. Commuter Rail uses the existing rail infrastructure. The rail lines are there and many older towns still have depots that were used up until the 1960s. And many of these old town centers could use a shot in the arm that would come with an active rail stop. However, line usage has to be negotiated with the Freight Rail companies. This has been the sticking point in Atlanta for a long time.

If the Gulch is developed without preserving for Commuter Rail and the MMPT it would be a sad lost opportunity. It is really the only place where the existing rail lines, MARTA HRT, and Bus Infrastructure could come together. The real beauty is the connectivity between them all. You could ride in all the way from the outer suburbs, then make one change to many parts of the city.

Street Advocate Aug 20, 2018 6:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newnan_Eric (Post 8287169)
If the Gulch is developed without preserving for Commuter Rail and the MMPT it would be a sad lost opportunity. It is really the only place where the existing rail lines, MARTA HRT, and Bus Infrastructure could come together. .
Armour Yards is a legitimate alternative.

jwbab Aug 21, 2018 4:29 PM
The Gulch:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DlIJ517VAAEE03i.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DlIJ52BUYAIbaey.jpg

Source: https://twitter.com/maggie_a_lee/sta...98237249249280

smArTaLlone Aug 21, 2018 8:31 PM
Proposed ‘Gulch’ development designed to suppress car use, promote alternative transi
 
https://saportareport.com/proposed-g...ative-transit/

Quote:
The planned 27-acre development in the “Gulch” in Downtown Atlanta has won support from an array of governmental entities for its concept of building a mini city above the network of parking lots and a parking deck stretching between CNN Center and MARTA’s Five Points Station.
  • 1,000 residential units;
  • 1,500-room hotel;
  • 9.35 million square feet of office space;
  • 1 million square feet of retail space;
  • About 8,000 parking spaces

  • The project is planned to fully integrate with MARTA’s heavy rail system at both the Dome/ GWCC/ Phillips Arena/ CNN Center and Five Points Stations. Two new access points have been proposed by CIM.
  • “Access to the Dome/GWCC/Phillips Arena/CNN Center Station would include a new ticketing concourse on the south side of the station beneath Centennial Olympic Park Drive with vertical circulation along a retailed concourse to provide direct ingress and egress along the northern boundaries of the project.
  • “The second new access point is proposed at the Five Points Station west of Forsyth Street with a direct connection beneath Forsyth Street for ingress and egress at the northwest corner of the Station.”
Here is the presentation on the Gulch redevelop with this concept rendering.

https://saportareport.com/wp-content...on-8.21.18.pdf


I know everyone wants tall buildings (including me) but a development as rendered would be phenomenal for downtown.
https://i.imgur.com/DHGn7Ti.png

Atlanta3000 Aug 21, 2018 9:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by smArTaLlone (Post 8288709)

I know everyone wants tall buildings (including me) but a development as rendered would be phenomenal for downtown.
https://i.imgur.com/DHGn7Ti.png
If we were not promised a LA Live like "entertainment district" or HQ2, what is depicted above would be fine.

With that said, there is no way in hell the CoA, the State of GA or CIM Group can justify they need a $900 Million - 1.75 Billion handout for what we are seeing today.

The renderings of Assembly Yards in Doraville frickin GA are more impressive than this. Although I believe the Gulch renderings today do not portend what the future development will actually look like, I would just advise CIM Group they should have taken the time to produce more exciting renderings when asking for the handouts they are requesting.

alco89 Aug 21, 2018 9:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlanta3000 (Post 8288783)
If we were not promised a LA Live like "entertainment district" or HQ2, what is depicted above would be fine.

With that said, there is no way in hell the CoA, the State of GA or CIM Group can justify they need a $900 Million - 1.75 Billion handout for what we are seeing today.
This PERFECTLY expresses how I feel. Unfortunately we'll have to wait and see--which we've been doing a lot of, lately.

Martinman Aug 21, 2018 10:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by smArTaLlone (Post 8288709)

Here is the presentation on the Gulch redevelop with this concept rendering.

https://saportareport.com/wp-content...on-8.21.18.pdf
This seems to be very similar to the tax breaks (tax increment) a lot of the developments have been getting in the city recently and not $1 billion in handouts as is being reported. Thank goodness.

Quote:
CIM will be the sole initial purchaser of new TAD bonds (assumes ALL project AND financial
risk).
• CIM equity (cash) will be used to fund all initial design and construction expenditures.
– The Gulch TAD bonds will be repaid solely from real estate tax increment generated by CIM’s successful redevelopment of the GEZ.
• Bond repayment (CIM reimbursement) only occurs AFTER substantial development has been completed (increment generation).
– No financial credit support from, default risk to or General Fund impact to the City.


Not to exceed principal bond amount of $1.25 billion.
• CIM will be the sole initial purchaser of new EZ Bonds (assumes ALL project AND financial risk).
• EZ bonds will be repaid solely from sales tax generated within the Gulch Enterprise Zone.
• No financial credit support from, default risk to or General Fund impact to the City


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