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aerogt3 Feb 17, 2015 9:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Northparkwizard (Post 6917441)
It's a common practice in most cities, here's an interesting article on the subject from The New York Times that I read/watched last year.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/31/re...ings.html?_r=0

Interesting article. I did a simple calc on one of the buildings in the article, that had 710 market rate (starting at $3065) and 142 affordable units (at $540.) The subsidy on the affordable units works out to $505 per market rate unit :runaway: Not sure if raising rents on everyone who isn't lucky enough to win a very narrow lottery really helps society. I am not against affordable housing, but the way it is done in the US seems like a benefit for an extreme few at the expense of many.

Quote:

At the Chelsea Park, for example, 15,000 applicants made a bid for just 51 apartments. For those who make it through the sieve, the effect can be profound.
Stats like that show what is clearly a supply problem. If there were 100 applicants and 70 were granted housing, you could say affordable housing were making a difference. But to me, affordable housing works a lot like this:

You have 100 hungry people, and only 50 slices of pizza. 2 people are filthy rich, and are helicoptered out of the real world to go eat on their yacht. The solution for the rest is to have a lottery where 5 winners recieve 2 slices each. The rest of the 40 slices are divided evenly between the remaining 93.

The result of this "solution" is that 93 people are hungrier than they otherwise would have been, and the news runs a feel-good story about how affordable housing has helped feed 5 people.

The Best Forumer Feb 17, 2015 6:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bertrice (Post 6905040)
Here's another proposal. I like this one the best

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9NGqZjCUAAK5fK.jpg

Nice!

ucsbgaucho Feb 19, 2015 5:17 PM

I think any San Diego stadium proposal has to include some sort of retractable roof setup to allow the stadium to host indoor events, like the Final Four, presidential election conventions, etc. Doing this vastly increases the functionality of the stadium, and takes care of one of the big complaints about football stadiums, that they are only good for a handful of days every year. San Diego would be an ideal destination for events like the Final Four, which is regularly hosted in covered football venues like Dallas, Indianapolis, New Orleans, etc. There's no facility on the west coast capable of hosting that event, what a great coup for San Diego.

In addition, if the current stadium location is the site of a new facility, which I think is probably the best option considering the land is there and there's more than enough of it, you need to incorporate an indoor basketball/hockey arena. San Diego has been in discussions for years to be a good option for an expansion NHL or NBA franchise. Heck, Vegas is building a 20,000 seat arena in hopes of attracting a team. Putting the two together makes a lot of sense.

The Qualcomm site is the best site in San Diego for a facility, and the most probable. Of course I'd rather have something downtown with the views, the high-rise buildings that would surround it, etc, but I just think it's going to be too difficult to make any of the proposed sites work. Plus, with the other high-rises being built in Mission Valley, I could envision a cluster of high-rise commercial, hotel and residential buildings surrounding the stadium area.

It may not be the most beautiful spot, but it's the most likely to succeed.

dtell04 Feb 20, 2015 12:37 AM

If there's one thing this stadium debate has pointed out it is that we need to give up our "Americas finest city" motto. There's basically zero sense of civic pride or cohesiveness. After being here for about a decade it's getting pretty old. This town is full of too many selfish people that either don't want to spend money on a stadium(or any number of examples), the never ending factions of NIMBYs, or people that simply have no clue what's going on around them.

If a sports team can't even bring people together to work towards a solution nothing will. The bickering will continue to hold San Diego back. Best solution is Rams and Raiders move to LA before the Chargers can get there.

I'm an eternal pessimist, to make a disclaimer.

rocksteady Feb 20, 2015 4:39 AM

Not a fan of this proposal....
 
Chargers, Raiders propose shared NFL stadium in Carson.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-...ry.html#page=1

Lipani Feb 20, 2015 4:45 AM

^ With all due respect, dtell, claiming that anyone against a football stadium lack civic pride is a childish attack. This city needs billions in infrastructure repairs and to spend a huge chunk of that on a new stadium for owners of a team who are billionaires (and in a league that makes billions) will not go over well with most people. If building a new stadium made any financial sense the Chargers and the NFL would have built one years ago. And no, I am not a nimby nor am I selfish because I prioritize other projects to better our city ahead of this one.

HurricaneHugo Feb 20, 2015 5:22 AM

Signed a petition for One Paseo:

http://www.kpbs.org/news/2015/feb/18/one-paseo/

But now I don't care at all since the city will probably lose the Chargers :(

eburress Feb 20, 2015 5:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HurricaneHugo (Post 6922243)
Signed a petition for One Paseo:

http://www.kpbs.org/news/2015/feb/18/one-paseo/

But now I don't care at all since the city will probably lose the Chargers :(

Man, for real. A pretty as it is here and as nice as the weather is, this city is the worst.

I'm pulling for One Paseo, but it doesn't look good.

dtell04 Feb 20, 2015 6:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lipani (Post 6922212)
^ With all due respect, dtell, claiming that anyone against a football stadium lack civic pride is a childish attack. This city needs billions in infrastructure repairs and to spend a huge chunk of that on a new stadium for owners of a team who are billionaires (and in a league that makes billions) will not go over well with most people. If building a new stadium made any financial sense the Chargers and the NFL would have built one years ago. And no, I am not a nimby nor am I selfish because I prioritize other projects to better our city ahead of this one.

Yeah you are certainly entitled to prioritize that way. But for the stadium to possibly never ever be put to a public vote is a complete failure of leadership. Comment sections and blogs are not a proper way to make civic decisions.

a very long weekend Feb 20, 2015 6:29 AM

the san francisco 49ers left the city here and it didn't really make any difference. i'm pretty sure that san diego is more than the nhl team.

SDfan Feb 20, 2015 7:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtell04 (Post 6921967)
If there's one thing this stadium debate has pointed out it is that we need to give up our "Americas finest city" motto. There's basically zero sense of civic pride or cohesiveness. After being here for about a decade it's getting pretty old. This town is full of too many selfish people that either don't want to spend money on a stadium(or any number of examples), the never ending factions of NIMBYs, or people that simply have no clue what's going on around them.

If a sports team can't even bring people together to work towards a solution nothing will. The bickering will continue to hold San Diego back. Best solution is Rams and Raiders move to LA before the Chargers can get there.

I'm an eternal pessimist, to make a disclaimer.

I'll be the first person to say that San Diegan's are cheap, penny pinching stiffs, but on this issue the majority is right.

This city is falling apart. The roads are crumbling, the sewers are bursting, housing construction is over burdened with regulatory nonsense, and we haven't even addressed how this community is going to adapt to climate change or deal with the growing inequality issue. But to say that a building a 1.5 billion dollar stadium for a sports team (a private, for-profit entertainment club owned by a billionaire) should be the litmus test for civic pride and achievement is really, kind of, ridiculous. This city has so much it needs to do, and yet the Chargers are supposed to be priority? They bitch and moan about how it's been 14 years since they began their stadium drive (keep in mind, they decided Qualcomm was not up to par, not San Diegans), but that ignores the fact that we went through a major financial scandal followed by the greatest economic recession since the depression era, and have only now been climbing slowly out of the hole economically and politically. Boo-hoo. So sad. Until my streets are paved, my sewers are re-piped, my community plan updated, and the other 3 billion+ dollars worth of needed infrastructure repairs are made, its a hell no to those arrogant extortionists. The NFL is a criminal cartel, shaking down cities for billions and we are wising up to their concussion-strewn game. The Los Angles Chargers sound good to me.

spoonman Feb 20, 2015 7:26 AM

About the stadium, wow! Total lapse in leadership.

This city could have had a new airport, but waited to long.

This city could have had a new stadium, but waited too long. Now these are becoming too expensive to build, monetarily and politically.

This city could have had an expanded convention center...

This city could have extended rail to the airport...

This city could have completed the Pacific Imperial Railroad...

This city could have expanded the port...

I'm close to giving up on this city...pathetic. I feel like the Nimby types are getting worse, not better. Entitled boomers, I guess? I can only hope that these doldrums can inspire us to do better.

SDfan Feb 20, 2015 7:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtell04 (Post 6922269)
Yeah you are certainly entitled to prioritize that way. But for the stadium to possibly never ever be put to a public vote is a complete failure of leadership. Comment sections and blogs are not a proper way to make civic decisions.

I completely agree, it should go to a vote. It won't get 66%+, however.

SDfan Feb 20, 2015 7:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonman (Post 6922319)
About the stadium, wow! Total lapse in leadership.

There really isn't much our leadership could do. They knew the majority wouldn't support a public finance option, let alone a supermajority. They know the Chargers are profit driven, and would leave for greener pastures once that reality set in. All the Chargers ever really needed was an incentive to leave, and once the Rams came along, boom.

spoonman Feb 20, 2015 7:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDfan (Post 6922321)
There really isn't much our leadership could do. They knew the majority wouldn't support a public finance option, let alone a supermajority. They know the Chargers are profit driven, and would leave for greener pastures once that reality set in. All the Chargers ever really needed was an incentive to leave, and once the Rams came along, boom.

Not exactly. In 2004, the stadium cost was estimated at only $400m. The Chargers proposed to build the facility if the city gave them the land. Rather than negotiate or accept the offer, Mike Aguirre was allowed to railroad the team. As time has gone on, the cost has now substantially exceeded that which can be covered by the team, naming rights, etc.

While I believe that the team sold it poorly and is inept, the city blew them off and is ultimately to blame. Just like the airport at Miramar, it is a classic San Diego case of waiting too long.

I've always stuck up for this city, but it is going backward, not forward.

dtell04 Feb 20, 2015 9:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDfan (Post 6922318)
I'll be the first person to say that San Diegan's are cheap, penny pinching stiffs, but on this issue the majority is right.

This city is falling apart. The roads are crumbling, the sewers are bursting, housing construction is over burdened with regulatory nonsense, and we haven't even addressed how this community is going to adapt to climate change or deal with the growing inequality issue. But to say that a building a 1.5 billion dollar stadium for a sports team (a private, for-profit entertainment club owned by a billionaire) should be the litmus test for civic pride and achievement is really, kind of, ridiculous. This city has so much it needs to do, and yet the Chargers are supposed to be priority? They bitch and moan about how it's been 14 years since they began their stadium drive (keep in mind, they decided Qualcomm was not up to par, not San Diegans), but that ignores the fact that we went through a major financial scandal followed by the greatest economic recession since the depression era, and have only now been climbing slowly out of the hole economically and politically. Boo-hoo. So sad. Until my streets are paved, my sewers are re-piped, my community plan updated, and the other 3 billion+ dollars worth of needed infrastructure repairs are made, its a hell no to those arrogant extortionists. The NFL is a criminal cartel, shaking down cities for billions and we are wising up to their concussion-strewn game. The Los Angles Chargers sound good to me.

I didn't quite state that correctly. I meant that other cities rally around their sports teams, and for us not to even be able to agree upon supporting them means we are in a world of hurt.
On a side note, I question the 1+billion in backlog maintenance. I figured out a few years ago the flashing "don't walk" sign will blink 12 times in 12 seconds prior to turning red and allowing opposite traffic to pass. I did this by personal observation. Now the city installs signs that count for me. I wonder how much of this billion plus backlog is tied up in shit like this. A big part of our problem is people refusing to just figure out what's going on around them.
I don't think billionaires need welfare. But someone will build the Chargers a new stadium. Be that the private rich people that can afford the PSLs in LA or public money in SD, it ultimately is no money out of the Spanos family wallet. I grew up without a professional team and, personally, I would hope it could at least come to a vote. If not, well it's always been said there aren't enough charger fans in SD to fill a stadium. Hopefully the padres can help. Maybe AJ preller should be in charge of stadium negotiations.

Leo the Dog Feb 20, 2015 3:54 PM

Stadium/Chargers
 
Carson stadium proposal is $1.7 billion. No public money would be used. LA now has 3 possible NFL teams with 4 competing proposals all across the basin.

If the Chargers moved to LA, would you continue to wear their apparel? And would you make the 2 hour drive to watch them?

If not, then who would San Diegans go for...Arizona Cardinals?

If we lose the Chargers, I hope that SD builds an Arena/CC expansion to snag the Clippers when their lease expires.

Bertrice Feb 20, 2015 4:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDfan (Post 6922318)
and we haven't even addressed how this community is going to adapt to climate change

wear sunscreen .

eburress Feb 20, 2015 5:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDfan (Post 6922318)
I'll be the first person to say that San Diegan's are cheap, penny pinching stiffs, but on this issue the majority is right.

This city is falling apart. The roads are crumbling, the sewers are bursting, housing construction is over burdened with regulatory nonsense, and we haven't even addressed how this community is going to adapt to climate change or deal with the growing inequality issue. But to say that a building a 1.5 billion dollar stadium for a sports team (a private, for-profit entertainment club owned by a billionaire) should be the litmus test for civic pride and achievement is really, kind of, ridiculous. This city has so much it needs to do, and yet the Chargers are supposed to be priority? They bitch and moan about how it's been 14 years since they began their stadium drive (keep in mind, they decided Qualcomm was not up to par, not San Diegans), but that ignores the fact that we went through a major financial scandal followed by the greatest economic recession since the depression era, and have only now been climbing slowly out of the hole economically and politically. Boo-hoo. So sad. Until my streets are paved, my sewers are re-piped, my community plan updated, and the other 3 billion+ dollars worth of needed infrastructure repairs are made, its a hell no to those arrogant extortionists. The NFL is a criminal cartel, shaking down cities for billions and we are wising up to their concussion-strewn game. The Los Angles Chargers sound good to me.

I think that's partly why this is so demoralizing. This city can't do ANYTHING right...it's one half-assed, mismanaged failure after another. The roads are ridiculous, the sports venues are ridiculous, the airport is ridiculous, the infrastructure is ridiculous, the arts venues are ridiculous (if they exist at all). 20 years ago this city had momentum and could do no wrong. Boy has that changed!

Something people here in SD need to realize is that growing the tax base is what is going to pay for all this infrastructure, the new facilities, and such. Increasing density in general, moving the airport and turning the ground it's sitting on into new development, etc...

eburress Feb 20, 2015 5:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog (Post 6922566)
Carson stadium proposal is $1.7 billion. No public money would be used. LA now has 3 possible NFL teams with 4 competing proposals all across the basin.

If the Chargers moved to LA, would you continue to wear their apparel? And would you make the 2 hour drive to watch them?

If not, then who would San Diegans go for...Arizona Cardinals?

If we lose the Chargers, I hope that SD builds an Arena/CC expansion to snag the Clippers when their lease expires.

Good luck with that. There's still no money for a new arena and just think of the utter impossibility of rallying this city's population...a NIMBY population that HATES development...to build a shiny new structure. It's not going to happen.


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