the CTBUH lists the top of the tiara at 665', and the occupied height of the building as 519'. it lists the building as having 40 above ground floors.

the SSP diagram of it lists the top of the tiara at 665' as well, but the drawing's roof height looks to be around 550'.

there looks to be one or more levels of mechanical space between the highest occupied floor and the roof, which would make up that ~30' difference.

interestingly at one time springfield, mo and nashville, tn (nashville is close to where springfield, mo actually is on that map) were competing country music broadcasting/industry centers. nashville got the big growth and springfield spun off into branson for whatever reason which is a different, weird niche now.

lol i dont think anyone thinks toronto is in michigan...

Perhaps the map on this shirt will help:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/06...g?v=1571321686
source

:cheers:

But there IS a Montreal in Wisconsin, and not far from where it's indicated on the map.

I wonder if the designer knew that.

I automatically think that any map of the Midwest that stretches from Ohio to Colorado, Minnesota to Texas, is made by someone who doesn't know the Midwest.

such as the US census bureau?

https://www.researchgate.net/profile...ons-that-I.png
source: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...ig32_268356764

Especially the Census Bureau. I blame them for this misrepresentation of the Midwest.

why do you say it's a misrepresentation of "the midwest"?

what would you add/omit to the census bureau's definition of "the midwest"?

I'd say that 95% of the cultural Midwest overlaps with the Northwest Territory. The other 5% is made up of border regions to the old Northwest Territory that got absorbed in (e.g. St. Louis).

Most of "West North Central" should be its own region.

Census bureau boundaries have been fixed for well over a century, so not really great for delineating current regional boundaries. I don't think really anyone would put Maryland in the South rather than in the Northeast, to take an example. New Jersey as a border state between North and South?

Also, one small correction with the pre-1993 building counts. 9-11 destroyed two 700 ft.+ towers, not three. Obviously the Twins meet the criteria. There were two other major towers that were destroyed - 7 WTC (the original one), and the former Bankers Trust World HQ (usually refereed to as Deutsche Bank building). Neither were 700 ft. There were a number of smaller buildings destroyed of course, like the Vista hotel, and the lowrise portions of the WTC.

The Census Bureau's goal is a consistent, simple division for tracking purposes. They aren't trying to represent 2020's regional zeitgeist in any way. They certainly aren't claiming that their Midwest boundaries define the Midwest.

Well, shit, not only have I made that trip in the wrong direction all these years, I've also been doing it in the wrong state...

at one time even denver was described as midwest. at other times missouri was described as “southwest” when the u.s. center of gravity was overwhelmingly boswash.

the descriptors are changeable over time but kansans call themselves midwestern and in fact often consider themselves the quintessential archetype of midwestern along with iowa. it’s the plains part of the midwest of course...

Problem with the Census Bureau's divisions is that they have to stick to entire states. El Paso has to be in the same region as the bayous of the Louisiana border, whatever that region is.

In reality, it's mostly the other way around: the rivers that are so many state borders often have the same culture on each side.

i fully disagree with that.

rural illinois is virtually identical to rural iowa.

and cities like KC, omaha, des moines, st. louis, and minneapolis are as midwestern as any other.



historically speaking, the US only has the 4 main macro-regions - northeast, midwest, south & west.

yes, there are numerous sub-regions within those four, but good luck creating a brand new 5th macro-region and having the concept catch on.

so you either lump everything from the mississippi river to CO/WY/MO into the midwest or the west. considering that the overwhelming majority of people in that utterly vast expanse of land live in its eastern reaches, it fits much more comfortably into the midwest IMO.

Iowa makes sense to add to the Midwest. The University of Iowa was a founding member of the Big 10, which is a good rule of thumb for defining the region, IMO. Every state that I consider really Midwest had at least one school that was a founding member.

Present day Minneapolis was partially in the Northwest Territory (along with all of St. Paul), and Minnesota's territorial origins began in the Northwest Territory (hence the former Northwest Airlines). It actually might have been the Northwest Territory states that co-opted the term "Midwest" from the West-North-Central states. But my point is that, whatever you want to call it, there is a shared historical origin to the Northwest Territory states that make them distinct from the West-North-Central States. Ohio and North Dakota sound about as similar as Maine and Georgia.

I fully agree that there are many subregions within the 4 macro region's (I even directly said as much in my last post), but that doesn't mean that any single given subregion gets to lay claim to the whole macro-region.

The great lakes states and the west north central states do constitute their own subregions AND both are still parts of the broader Midwest. It's not one or the other.

Similaly out west, arizona in the southwest is pretty different from Oregon in the pacific northwest, but that doesn't mean that the southwest is the only "real" west and that the other subregions in the west have to go find a new macro-region to be part of.

It's a both/and thing.

Not entirely on topic but there's a lot of (or used to be, before the pandemic?) migration between the Southwest (AZ, NM) and the Pacific Northwest (WA, OR). I think people swap regions due to the lack of, or abundance of, sunlight. We're weird about weather preferences this side of the Rockies.

Possibly because of the transient nature of denizens in the Southwest, there's a shit ton of bandwaggoner Seattle Seahawks and Oregon Ducks fans around these parts. I expect Kraken fans to start showing up to Coyotes games en masse (outnumbering Yotes fans) when they finally take the ice.

Also, reverse seasonal affective disorder is legit in a region that averages over 300 days of sunlight per year...

I think the main division in the West is between the actual West Coast / coastal West and the Interior West. That's again something that the Census Bureau misses, since they always work with entire states.

Easternmost WA and OR are very "Interior West", virtually identical to Idaho for nearly all purposes no?

If I had to point to the single thing that I think makes the least sense in the Census Bureau's divisions, it would be Wheeling being in an entirely different region than its immediate neighbors in NE OH and W PA.