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kpexpress Mar 28, 2009 6:37 AM

I think although Dallas is just smaller than SD we could really learn a lot from it in regards to how to grow, but my grip about Dallas (besides the brutal heat) is that the downtown housing is scarce, but there's hope, a lot of activity happening on the West End. I love that uptown area and would definitely live there.

kpexpress Mar 28, 2009 6:38 AM

Aaaagrgh but why is this thread turing into a Dallas discussion in stead of SD. By the way, critical mass tonight was amaaaaaazing, we crowded the airport and brought terminal 2 to it's knees. Anyone participate?

mongoXZ Mar 28, 2009 8:03 AM

Dallas and San Diego are two totally different beasts. There are many trade-offs/rip-offs between them. It all depends on the individual tastes and situations.

One is your typically flat & ugly Texas city whose main perks are aimed at attracting and retaining businesses. A newly expanded international airport with those neat little trams ( I keep getting lost in them). Say all you want about the tall, glassy skyline but at street level it's truly disappointing. That area where the W Hotel is: manufactured and plasticized. You might as well call it Downtown Disney II. Beyond that there's not much else which explains the low cost of living.

The other is San Diego. Inept city government. High taxes. The airport problem is a total drag, DUDE! But, oh that scenery and weather! And not to sound like a total homer: Our downtown is the envy of the sunbelt. Many of you don't realize that. Don't try to argue with me that LA's, Phoenix's, Dallas', Houston's, San Antonio's, Atlanta's, Tampa's, and even Miami's city centers can match SD's in terms of vibrancy and revitalization. . .because it DOESN'T!

To further compare these two cities in pictures:

Dallas: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=165108

San Diego (thanks to sd_urban for these): http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=165681

Enough said. And for those who complain that it's too damn expensive to live here, do what I did: Start a business and make it successful. Because there is NO WAY IN HELL I'M MOVING TO TEXAS FOR CHEAP PASTURES! FUCK THAT! :haha:

PadreHomer Mar 28, 2009 5:17 PM

Idiotic.

staplesla Mar 28, 2009 8:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpexpress (Post 4164445)
I think although Dallas is just smaller than SD we could really learn a lot from it in regards to how to grow, but my grip about Dallas (besides the brutal heat) is that the downtown housing is scarce, but there's hope, a lot of activity happening on the West End. I love that uptown area and would definitely live there.

Just curious why you would think Dallas is smaller than SD? Dallas is larger and the DFW area is the 4th largest MSA in the nation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_o...tistical_Areas

And I'm not trying to start a Dallas vs. San Diego argument. I love San Diego. I just get frustrated when I think about what my children will be faced with. If it wasn't for the coast that I'm partial to, I'd be living in Dallas with its lower cost of living, better travel options with larger airports and better light rail, and better business infrastructure.

I agree that every city has its own issues (including Dallas). I just appreciate that Dallas residents seem to be more progressive in their thinking. The Dallas Arts District is about 75% complete will be the 2nd largest in the nation, and the Trinity River Corridor will be the largest Urban Park in the U.S., 5x larger than NYC's Central Park.

And BTW, the both cities actually have roughly 30,000 downtown residents with an equal amount of residential spaces. And West End is a tourist only area of Dallas. Dallasites don't hang in West End. For the local night life you need to go to Main, Greenville, or McKinney Avenues. My condo in downtown Dallas is surrounded by a great night life so I don't understand the misinformation.

http://www.downtowndallas.org/ForRes...ors/index.aspx
http://www.sandiegomagazine.com/medi...Life-Downtown/

eburress Mar 28, 2009 11:21 PM

^^ I would say San Diego's downtown is livelier than Dallas', but considering where Dallas' downtown was (a ghost town after 5PM), the fact that they're even close to San Diego's is impressive. Another thing to consider is that Dallas is MUCH better positioned to invest in its downtown.

tdavis Mar 29, 2009 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpexpress (Post 4164445)
I think although Dallas is just smaller than SD we could really learn a lot from it in regards to how to grow, but my grip about Dallas (besides the brutal heat) is that the downtown housing is scarce, but there's hope, a lot of activity happening on the West End. I love that uptown area and would definitely live there.

When was the last time you went to Dallas? You may be referring to Dallas during the 90's or early 2000's. My brother moved to downtown Dallas and the area he is in is very vibrant. I visited him a few months ago and loved it.

staplesla Mar 29, 2009 1:29 AM

Okay, enough of Dallas. Dallas was just an example. All I'm saying is that San Diego leaders better do something or SD will be left behind the other cities that are being more progressive. I think the greatest thing SD has going for it is the waterfront. I just wish the Embarcadero plans would take shape and that we could embrace the waterfront better.

cata77 Mar 29, 2009 1:37 AM

^ leave that to North Embarcadero Visionary Plan ;)

have you guys seen this website I find it pretty interesting
http://www.fehlmanlabarre.com/#projects

sandiegodweller Mar 29, 2009 9:27 PM

If the Dallas area is so fucking great, why can't they get things done even with huge public subsidies and financing?

So far, development isn't cropping up near Cowboys' new stadium

11:38 AM CST on Monday, March 2, 2009
By JEFF MOSIER / The Dallas Morning News
jmosier@dallasnews.com
ARLINGTON – The new Dallas Cowboys stadium was predicted to transform its surroundings into a vibrant urban center comparable to Times Square or at the very least Victory Park.

But the bright lights, restaurants, hotels and pedestrian-friendly shopping district are nowhere to be seen. The severe recession has sabotaged much of the planned development around the $1.1 billion stadium, whose inaugural event will be a June 6 concert featuring George Strait and Reba McEntire.

Aside from road improvements, a row of new town homes and a few more commercial vacancies, the neighborhoods surrounding the Cowboys stadium differ little from when construction began. And the chances of any major development opening in time for the 2011 Super Bowl are shrinking daily.

"We're totally helpless to make that go forward until we're over this problem that we're having," Arlington Mayor Robert Cluck said. "The economy is beyond anyone's control."

The 1.2 million-square-foot Glorypark retail, residential and entertainment project from Texas Rangers owner Tom Hicks is being redesigned after nine months on the shelf and has no timeline yet. Just a few blocks from the Cowboys stadium, Glorypark was expected to be a center of activity on game days and during the week of the Super Bowl.

Not so upscale

When the Cowboys kick off their first preseason game in late summer, it's likely that rather than upscale sports bars, the closest dining will be CiCi's Pizza, Panda Express, Pitt Grill and a handful of other small restaurants.

Developers planning the Solaris Plaza hotel, retail and office complex for the historic but long shuttered Eastern Star Home off Division Street called it quits before the project was publicly announced and never even bought the land.

That project was expected to also include parking garages and convention space, according to e-mails sent to city officials in March 2008. It wasn't clear when plans for the development were halted. Portions of the old retirement home were in such bad shape that they had to be demolished, said former owner Hal Thorne, a Grand Prairie lawyer.

The e-mails about Solaris Plaza and others relating to projects around the stadium were obtained as part of a Public Information Act request made by The Dallas Morning News last year. The city appealed to the Texas attorney general's office, which decided that many of the documents and e-mails were public records. The city disagreed and sued the attorney general's office to prevent their release.

Some of the documents were finally released early this year.

Arlington supporters of the new Cowboys stadium hoped that it would be a catalyst for redevelopment in an area dominated by parking lots, motels, auto sales and repair and retail targeting immigrants. The mixed-use developments and pricey condominiums planned for the area would have targeted the more affluent football fans who could afford tickets that cost as much as a few hundred dollars and seat licenses that cost thousands.

The city is contributing about $325 million in funding toward construction of the stadium.

"The city of Arlington was clearly banking on that ancillary development," said economist Bernard Weinstein. "It's not the city of Arlington's fault or the Cowboys' fault that we're having the worst economic downturn since the 1930s."

The adjacent developments were considered particularly important since most of the money generated inside the stadium will go to the Cowboys or toward paying off a portion of their debt.

The stadium will also be owned by the city, so it will not generate property taxes.


Glorypark hopes

Deputy City Manager Trey Yelverton said that Glorypark or something similar to it is still very important to the city's plans.

"It's going to capture dollars from people who come early and stay late," he said. Also, he said it would act as an anchor for other development and improve traffic flow by giving people more to do before and after games.

Weinstein, director of the Center for Economic Development and Research at the University of North Texas, said he could see Hicks' development plan returning and succeeding, but it might be another five or six years before something of that scale opens by the stadium.

Some aren't surprised that development hasn't followed either stadium.

Craig A. Depken, an economist at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, said that historically, sports arenas don't attract as much development as is promised by backers. That's particularly true for stadiums in less developed areas, he said.

"There was very much an implicit assumption by the proponents of the [Cowboys] stadium that development would come," said Depken, who previously taught at the University of Texas at Arlington. "I'm not surprised that it hasn't happened, because often times it does not."

Arlington city leaders told voters in 1991 that funding a new stadium for the Rangers would help bring a San Antonio-style river walk with shops and restaurants to Arlington. That never materialized, and city leaders were more cautious when promoting the Cowboys stadium. But less than two weeks before the vote in 2004, Hicks and his partners announced their "town center" that would become Glorypark.

Casey Shilts, chief operating officer of Hicks Sports Group, said she's not sure that it's useful to use the name Glorypark, which is now only a placeholder.

"Every time we use the term Glorypark, we think of the project that we were in the midst of developing," she said. "Really, what we've done is taken a step back and looked at what we think is the best use for that land and what direction we're going to go with that project."


Super Bowl timing

The development is planned for some of the parking lots surrounding the Rangers Ballpark. Shilts said that the new development would include less retail and more restaurants and entertainment. She said that depending the phasing of the project, some early parts of the new development could open in time for the February 2011 Super Bowl.

Before that could happen, Hicks must finalize a development partner and plans for the project. Shilts said in an e-mail this week that Steiner + Associates, the previous development partner, would probably not be involved since that company is focused more on retail.

Also, she said the development is expected to require public money, possibly generated by a special taxing district like one created for Glorypark and then later scrapped. Cluck said that putting together another plan for public assistance would take months.

Even if dirt started to fly this week, there's no guarantee that a large, full-service hotel or big mixed-use development near the stadium would be finished in time for the Super Bowl.

An e-mail exchange between a city official and bond attorney suggested that pace of progress had slowed months earlier than Hicks' May 2008 announcement that Glorypark was on hold.

"The reason for the delay is the fact that, even though he [Steiner + Associates head Yaromir Steiner] and the other developer parties have know for over a year that private financing of the development is required, they have failed to obtain it, and BOA [Bank of America] and the City are still waiting," Ray Hutchison, a longtime bond adviser for Arlington, wrote in a March 2008 e-mail.

In a response, Yelverton wrote: "...I told Glorypark reps after the speech [by Steiner at UTA] that we are at do or die time and that if Hick's/Steiner were serious about moving forward it is time to quit debating with Key Bank and get terms agreed to – that it was time for Mr. Hicks to make the required commitment."

Yelverton said the tone of the e-mails didn't reveal frustration as much as fatigue from the long process. He said that the city still had a good relationship with Hicks.

Cluck said it was a good decision to stop work on Glorypark when Hicks did last year rather than potentially have a project that started but couldn't be finished.

"The fact that they pulled out there at the last minute with the economy coming back down," he said, "it's probably fortunate that we didn't start the project."

kpexpress Mar 29, 2009 9:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by staplesla (Post 4165118)
Just curious why you would think Dallas is smaller than SD? Dallas is larger and the DFW area is the 4th largest MSA in the nation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_o...tistical_Areas

And I'm not trying to start a Dallas vs. San Diego argument. I love San Diego. I just get frustrated when I think about what my children will be faced with. If it wasn't for the coast that I'm partial to, I'd be living in Dallas with its lower cost of living, better travel options with larger airports and better light rail, and better business infrastructure.

I agree that every city has its own issues (including Dallas). I just appreciate that Dallas residents seem to be more progressive in their thinking. The Dallas Arts District is about 75% complete will be the 2nd largest in the nation, and the Trinity River Corridor will be the largest Urban Park in the U.S., 5x larger than NYC's Central Park.

And BTW, the both cities actually have roughly 30,000 downtown residents with an equal amount of residential spaces. And West End is a tourist only area of Dallas. Dallasites don't hang in West End. For the local night life you need to go to Main, Greenville, or McKinney Avenues. My condo in downtown Dallas is surrounded by a great night life so I don't understand the misinformation.

http://www.downtowndallas.org/ForRes...ors/index.aspx
http://www.sandiegomagazine.com/medi...Life-Downtown/

I agree one hundred percent with all of your comments above. I LOVE Dallas in regards to the infrastructure, airports, biz, travel options, but dislike the freaking heat and lack of geographic diversity. And I was speaking of the size of the City proper not the Metro. The city of San Diego is larger than the city of Dallas (proper not metro)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._by_population

kpexpress Mar 29, 2009 9:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by staplesla (Post 4165436)
Okay, enough of Dallas. Dallas was just an example. All I'm saying is that San Diego leaders better do something or SD will be left behind the other cities that are being more progressive. I think the greatest thing SD has going for it is the waterfront. I just wish the Embarcadero plans would take shape and that we could embrace the waterfront better.

^^^This would look good as a huge neon lit billboard down on Broadway between Horton Plaza and The Civic Center.

The question is: How do we make it different? If nothing is done (which happens all too often in SD) this area will be left behind in the dust. I FUCKING HATE THE LAZY BEACH TOWN MENTALITY HERE!!! Drives me nuts! It's not only a beach town, but a massive metropolitan area blessed with amazing weather and geographic spectacles. Plus, the amazing military and tourism industries. We need to act soo much different.

staplesla Mar 29, 2009 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandiegodweller (Post 4166540)
If the Dallas area is so fucking great, why can't they get things done even with huge public subsidies and financing?

So far, development isn't cropping up near Cowboys' new stadium

11:38 AM CST on Monday, March 2, 2009
By JEFF MOSIER / The Dallas Morning News
jmosier@dallasnews.com
ARLINGTON – The new Dallas Cowboys stadium was predicted to transform its surroundings into a vibrant urban center comparable to Times Square or at the very least Victory Park.

But the bright lights, restaurants, hotels and pedestrian-friendly shopping district are nowhere to be seen. The severe recession has sabotaged much of the planned development around the $1.1 billion stadium, whose inaugural event will be a June 6 concert featuring George Strait and Reba McEntire.

Aside from road improvements, a row of new town homes and a few more commercial vacancies, the neighborhoods surrounding the Cowboys stadium differ little from when construction began. And the chances of any major development opening in time for the 2011 Super Bowl are shrinking daily.

"We're totally helpless to make that go forward until we're over this problem that we're having," Arlington Mayor Robert Cluck said. "The economy is beyond anyone's control."

The 1.2 million-square-foot Glorypark retail, residential and entertainment project from Texas Rangers owner Tom Hicks is being redesigned after nine months on the shelf and has no timeline yet. Just a few blocks from the Cowboys stadium, Glorypark was expected to be a center of activity on game days and during the week of the Super Bowl.

Not so upscale

When the Cowboys kick off their first preseason game in late summer, it's likely that rather than upscale sports bars, the closest dining will be CiCi's Pizza, Panda Express, Pitt Grill and a handful of other small restaurants.

Developers planning the Solaris Plaza hotel, retail and office complex for the historic but long shuttered Eastern Star Home off Division Street called it quits before the project was publicly announced and never even bought the land.

That project was expected to also include parking garages and convention space, according to e-mails sent to city officials in March 2008. It wasn't clear when plans for the development were halted. Portions of the old retirement home were in such bad shape that they had to be demolished, said former owner Hal Thorne, a Grand Prairie lawyer.

The e-mails about Solaris Plaza and others relating to projects around the stadium were obtained as part of a Public Information Act request made by The Dallas Morning News last year. The city appealed to the Texas attorney general's office, which decided that many of the documents and e-mails were public records. The city disagreed and sued the attorney general's office to prevent their release.

Some of the documents were finally released early this year.

Arlington supporters of the new Cowboys stadium hoped that it would be a catalyst for redevelopment in an area dominated by parking lots, motels, auto sales and repair and retail targeting immigrants. The mixed-use developments and pricey condominiums planned for the area would have targeted the more affluent football fans who could afford tickets that cost as much as a few hundred dollars and seat licenses that cost thousands.

The city is contributing about $325 million in funding toward construction of the stadium.

"The city of Arlington was clearly banking on that ancillary development," said economist Bernard Weinstein. "It's not the city of Arlington's fault or the Cowboys' fault that we're having the worst economic downturn since the 1930s."

The adjacent developments were considered particularly important since most of the money generated inside the stadium will go to the Cowboys or toward paying off a portion of their debt.

The stadium will also be owned by the city, so it will not generate property taxes.


Glorypark hopes

Deputy City Manager Trey Yelverton said that Glorypark or something similar to it is still very important to the city's plans.

"It's going to capture dollars from people who come early and stay late," he said. Also, he said it would act as an anchor for other development and improve traffic flow by giving people more to do before and after games.

Weinstein, director of the Center for Economic Development and Research at the University of North Texas, said he could see Hicks' development plan returning and succeeding, but it might be another five or six years before something of that scale opens by the stadium.

Some aren't surprised that development hasn't followed either stadium.

Craig A. Depken, an economist at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, said that historically, sports arenas don't attract as much development as is promised by backers. That's particularly true for stadiums in less developed areas, he said.

"There was very much an implicit assumption by the proponents of the [Cowboys] stadium that development would come," said Depken, who previously taught at the University of Texas at Arlington. "I'm not surprised that it hasn't happened, because often times it does not."

Arlington city leaders told voters in 1991 that funding a new stadium for the Rangers would help bring a San Antonio-style river walk with shops and restaurants to Arlington. That never materialized, and city leaders were more cautious when promoting the Cowboys stadium. But less than two weeks before the vote in 2004, Hicks and his partners announced their "town center" that would become Glorypark.

Casey Shilts, chief operating officer of Hicks Sports Group, said she's not sure that it's useful to use the name Glorypark, which is now only a placeholder.

"Every time we use the term Glorypark, we think of the project that we were in the midst of developing," she said. "Really, what we've done is taken a step back and looked at what we think is the best use for that land and what direction we're going to go with that project."


Super Bowl timing

The development is planned for some of the parking lots surrounding the Rangers Ballpark. Shilts said that the new development would include less retail and more restaurants and entertainment. She said that depending the phasing of the project, some early parts of the new development could open in time for the February 2011 Super Bowl.

Before that could happen, Hicks must finalize a development partner and plans for the project. Shilts said in an e-mail this week that Steiner + Associates, the previous development partner, would probably not be involved since that company is focused more on retail.

Also, she said the development is expected to require public money, possibly generated by a special taxing district like one created for Glorypark and then later scrapped. Cluck said that putting together another plan for public assistance would take months.

Even if dirt started to fly this week, there's no guarantee that a large, full-service hotel or big mixed-use development near the stadium would be finished in time for the Super Bowl.

An e-mail exchange between a city official and bond attorney suggested that pace of progress had slowed months earlier than Hicks' May 2008 announcement that Glorypark was on hold.

"The reason for the delay is the fact that, even though he [Steiner + Associates head Yaromir Steiner] and the other developer parties have know for over a year that private financing of the development is required, they have failed to obtain it, and BOA [Bank of America] and the City are still waiting," Ray Hutchison, a longtime bond adviser for Arlington, wrote in a March 2008 e-mail.

In a response, Yelverton wrote: "...I told Glorypark reps after the speech [by Steiner at UTA] that we are at do or die time and that if Hick's/Steiner were serious about moving forward it is time to quit debating with Key Bank and get terms agreed to – that it was time for Mr. Hicks to make the required commitment."

Yelverton said the tone of the e-mails didn't reveal frustration as much as fatigue from the long process. He said that the city still had a good relationship with Hicks.

Cluck said it was a good decision to stop work on Glorypark when Hicks did last year rather than potentially have a project that started but couldn't be finished.

"The fact that they pulled out there at the last minute with the economy coming back down," he said, "it's probably fortunate that we didn't start the project."

Glory Park (the area surrounding the new Cowboys stadium) isn't in Dallas, it's in Arlington. But Tom Hicks and Jerry Jones have put the plans on hold due to economic conditions. The stadium hasn't even been finished yet so I think it is premature to question why "[Jones/Hicks] can't get things done." And I think it is smart given the current economic concerns to wait for things to improve.

bmfarley Mar 30, 2009 2:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by staplesla (Post 4166809)
Glory Park (the area surrounding the new Cowboys stadium) isn't in Dallas, it's in Arlington. But Tom Hicks and Jerry Jones have put the plans on hold due to economic conditions. The stadium hasn't even been finished yet so I think it is premature to question why "[Jones/Hicks] can't get things done." And I think it is smart given the current economic concerns to wait for things to improve.

There is nothing on hold, other than completing a naming rights contract for the stadium. Some things are delayed, but nothing substantively which would affect football events to the point of relocating them. The June 6 George Strait concert at Cowboy Stadium is sold out and planned to occur.. despite some unfinished parts of the stadium... like locker rooms. Who cares.

kpexpress Mar 30, 2009 2:46 AM

Just when you thought the SD thread was dead, it's revived by content from another city. LAME.

Derek Mar 30, 2009 5:08 AM

Which is why I don't visit here often. :(



There's not much to see.

HurricaneHugo Mar 30, 2009 5:25 AM

How many floors does Strata have left to go?

eburress Mar 30, 2009 7:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandiegodweller (Post 4166540)
If the Dallas area is so fucking great, why can't they get things done even with huge public subsidies and financing?

The difference between San Diego and Dallas, and the reason Dallas is "so fucking great" is because DALLAS HAS A NEW FOOTBALL STADIUM. One of the grandest, most high-tech stadiums in the history of the World, I might add.

How's San Diego's quest for a new football stadium going?



(edited for emphasis)

eburress Mar 30, 2009 8:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpexpress (Post 4167030)
Just when you thought the SD thread was dead, it's revived by content from another city. LAME.

Maybe it's a little lame, but if San Diego were to take the steps to position itself the way cities like Dallas and Atlanta have, there would be a whole lot more San Diego development/skyscraper news to talk about.

kpexpress Mar 31, 2009 4:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek (Post 4167230)
Which is why I don't visit here often. :(



There's not much to see.

So where do you usually hang out on this forum?


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