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-   -   NEW YORK | 666 5th Ave. | 1,400 FT | FLOORS (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=218762)

Eidolon Sep 10, 2015 4:06 PM

NEW YORK | 666 5th Ave. | 1,400 FT | FLOORS
 
666 Fifth Ave. may be transformed into a slender tower
September 10, 2015
By Amanda Fung
http://www.thecityreview.com/fifth666zzz.jpg

Quote:

The office tower at 666 Fifth Ave. may be turned into a mall, hotel and residential tower. Jared Kushner and Steve Roth's Vornado Realty Trust is mulling the repositioning of the 41-story, 1957-era building.

The Pritzker Prize-winning architect Zaha Hadid has already prepared a plan that would restack 666 Fifth Ave. into a slender, super-tall hotel and residential tower above a vertical retail podium. Vornado controls the property's retail condominium, which it bought from Mr. Kushner, Carlyle and Crown Acquisitions three years ago for $710 million.
I can't wait to see what Zaha Hadid has been planning, hopefully it will look like her design for 425 Park which I liked very much.

Hypothalamus Sep 10, 2015 4:18 PM

Holy crap! A 1,400 foot-tall Zaha Hadid!? I must be dreaming :)

Real Estate heavyweights mull turning Fifth Ave. tower into mall

By Lois Weiss
September 10, 2015 | 12:02am

Quote:

Real estate heavyweights Steve Roth and Jared Kushner are mulling a plan to reposition the 1957-era aluminum-clad 666 Fifth Ave. office tower into a 1,400-foot vertical mall, hotel and residential tower.

The Post has also learned that Pritzker Prize-winning architect Zaha Hadid has already prepared a scheme that would restack the current 41-story building into a slender, super-tall hotel and residential tower above a vertical retail podium.

Because of its location, a significant part of the tower would have unobstructed views of Central Park.

While a partner in the office portion — Roth’s company, Vornado Realty Corp. — controls the building’s Fifth Avenue retail condominium, which they purchased from Kushner Companies, Carlyle and Crown Acquisitions in 2012 for $710 million.

Crawford Sep 10, 2015 4:19 PM

Another 1,400 ft. Midtown supertall, this time by Zaha Hadid. Sounds good to me.

chris08876 Sep 10, 2015 4:20 PM

Lol. Said this yesterday...

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris08876 (Post 7158095)
I've noticed that every time we get some height decrease, the next couple of days give us a big ass increase with some project. Couple of developments in the past where that has happened. Its the Ying-Yang effect of NY real estate.

http://www.tomegatherion.co.uk/symbo...yinyangani.gif

All we need now is a height increase for 1 Vanderbilt, and the Ying-Yang might explode.

So you know what that means...

The Ying-Yang has exploded! :cheers: If there's another tall tower proposed tomorrow, I might have a stroke. Too much good news to recently. :worship:

Incredible news. Seems like height decreases on other projects result in more towers that are even taller. Maybe what we need are more height decreases because luck is on our side. :D

In a great location.

https://www.google.com/maps/vt/data=...DKDEErzy_zbdFo

Hypothalamus Sep 10, 2015 4:31 PM

Some details: the built FAR of the office building is roughly 1.25 million square feet -- the entire floor area is around 1.5. There's also 50,000 square feet of unused air rights at 21 W 57th.

scalziand Sep 10, 2015 6:32 PM

Any chance of some airright transfers from St. Thomas?

munchymunch Sep 10, 2015 8:26 PM

I'm guessing 3,000 feet, red, lava smoldering down the sides, and it opes some sort of portal to hell. Long live the 666 tower

:yes:

Hypothalamus Sep 11, 2015 3:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scalziand (Post 7159216)
Any chance of some airright transfers from St. Thomas?

Don't think so, but if the air rights on St. Patrick's ever break the leash, 1.17 million square feet of air rights could be up for grabs.

intheburg Sep 11, 2015 3:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scalziand (Post 7159216)
Any chance of some airright transfers from St. Thomas?

It's my understanding that St. Thomas still has some leftover air rights that would have been used by 53w53 had it been built to its originally intended 1250 feet. When 53w53 was forced to lower to 1050 feet (a decision that seems more and more ludicrous with each passing month, given what is rising nearby), St. Thomas was still able to profit handsomely, but not as much as they would have if the project had been larger. So they were left with some unclaimed air rights, with precious few opportunities to transfer them to neighbors given the rules.

It seems reasonable that if given the chance, St. Thomas would welcome the oppoortunity to sell the remainder of what they had hoped to sell before Amanda Burden made her decision in favor of the neighborhood whiners who seem shocked to learn that they bought homes in midtown Manhattan. If so, it serves the nimbys right that there would be an even taller tower now on the same block as 53w53.

mistermetAJ Sep 11, 2015 4:01 AM

Hopefully it's a better proposal than her Park Ave tower.

http://archinect.com/news/article/59...tower-unveiled

Crawford Sep 11, 2015 4:18 AM

Mods should change thread title to 1,400 ft.

Zaha Hadid doesn't do standard-issue towers, so this building will not be a typical box.

JSsocal Sep 11, 2015 4:21 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but if they go through with this would't this be close to one of the biggest office buildings (in sf) ever purposefully taken down in the city?

chris08876 Sep 11, 2015 4:25 PM

^^^

I think they are going to add on top of it. Convert the building into a hotel/residential super tall. Assuming that's what they mean by "restack".

Something like a 5 Beekman situation for example, only a super tall. At least I think that's what the articles mean. :uhh:

JSsocal Sep 11, 2015 4:56 PM

I was under the impression it would be more like 380 Madison, where they would remove entire sections of the building in order to put that square footage higher up

Crawford Sep 11, 2015 5:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSsocal (Post 7160384)
I was under the impression it would be more like 380 Madison, where they would remove entire sections of the building in order to put that square footage higher up

Yeah, that's the plan. This was on a radio news article a few days ago. It would be a new tower from the layperson's perspective, but using the foundation. Supposedly this tower would have a large retail base and then a skinny tower above.

It would be more like the Norman Foster tower going up on Park Ave. Technically an alteration due to zoning rules but really a new tower.

JSsocal Sep 11, 2015 7:05 PM

As very attractive as a new 1400 foot building will be, which btw we can surely assume will be more architecturally significant then the current piece. It is another case of taking office space thats already serving and holding a lot of people, and turning that sf into huge apartments that will not only serve very few, but do nothing in terms of stemming actual residential demand. It reinforces this idea that height really isn't a good measure of the density of people these buildings are bringing into the area, or that all of this new construction is helping the city 'grow'.

Frankly the buildings that are making a dent are the relative crapola on far west 42nd. NY really needs many many more of these right now.

UTEPman Sep 11, 2015 10:49 PM

Not sure if a Hadid tower is good or bad for NY. She certainly does some interesting architecture, but not always in a good way.

Hope it's a stunner, and not something people look at 50 years from now saying "WTF were those people in the 2010's thinking by building this crazy thing?". LOL

chris08876 Sep 11, 2015 11:38 PM

A NY version of 1000 Museum rising in Miami would be nice. She seems to like that type of design.

Some of her work:

http://static.dezeen.com/uploads/201...dezeen_ss2.jpg
Credit: http://www.dezeen.com/2014/09/05/zah...scrapers-trio/

http://www.condosforsalemiamibeach.c...65756d3232.jpg
Credit: http://ivanparada7.blogspot.com/2014...s-will-be.html

http://www.noticiasarquitectura.info...a-york-640.jpg
Credit: http://www.multifamilyexecutive.com/...ints-nyc-mad_o

A slender super tall with that futuristic touch and an alien nature could be something that we may see. Although how it will fit on 5th Avenue in terms of its aesthetics is another question, but I have a feeling something incorporating elements in the projects above will rise.

While A.M. stern likes his art-deco, Hadid's designs look like something you'd see in a sci-fi movie.

Busy Bee Sep 12, 2015 1:12 AM

^That second one is particularly Gigeresque. Almost creepy in my opinion. I hope nothing like that rises on Fifth Avenue.

scalziand Sep 12, 2015 1:53 AM

Also for a reminder, here's Hadid's proposal for 425 Park.

http://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.c...bump.jpg?w=360

aquablue Sep 12, 2015 4:58 AM

Whatever she builds , will be nothing like those crazy alien monster towers. This is Midtown not Miami beach. You won't see an an insect or birds nest tower going up here fellows, I can guarantee it. I'll bet my bottom dollar that this tower ends up being a rather boxy tower with some frills added on for affect. Large swooping sides and this and that won't be on the table. I honestly think you're all getting your knickers in a twist over nothing. No way in hell boys will something remotely resembling that weird Miami tower be showing up in Midtown freakin Manhattan, lol!

SkyscrapersOfNewYork Sep 12, 2015 5:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 7161188)
Whatever she builds , will be nothing like those crazy alien monster towers. This is Midtown not Miami beach. You won't see an an insect or birds nest tower going up here fellows, I can guarantee it. I'll bet my bottom dollar that this tower ends up being a rather boxy tower with some frills added on for affect. Large swooping sides and this and that won't be on the table. I honestly think you're all getting your knickers in a twist over nothing. No way in hell boys will something remotely resembling that weird Miami tower be showing up in Midtown freakin Manhattan, lol!

Ya know,I dont want to antagonize you and i try to keep my mouth shut but as a mod i have ajob to do. In all honesty,your annoying. You seem to always have an overtly pestimistic view on NYC developments and perhaps its not just with NY maybe its across the forum but i can only speak for what I oversee. Your points would be more valid if you presented them in an intellectual and well thought out manner but instead its like you post comments in the hope that someone will argue back in anger. Personally i've always felt that way about you as have others. Your the exact opposite of J R Ewing but your both cut from the same thread. My patience runs thin lately and your thinly veiled city bashing won't go on for much longer,give what i've said here some thought.

Dac150 Sep 12, 2015 4:07 PM

Wow, this came out of nowhere. I have a direct view of this building from my office and it's one massive office building. This is very interesting, as the years go on and these mid-century office towers become more antiquated, I'm sure we'll see more and more of these developments.

mistermetAJ Sep 12, 2015 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 7161188)
Whatever she builds , will be nothing like those crazy alien monster towers. This is Midtown not Miami beach. You won't see an an insect or birds nest tower going up here fellows, I can guarantee it. I'll bet my bottom dollar that this tower ends up being a rather boxy tower with some frills added on for affect. Large swooping sides and this and that won't be on the table. I honestly think you're all getting your knickers in a twist over nothing. No way in hell boys will something remotely resembling that weird Miami tower be showing up in Midtown freakin Manhattan, lol!

As long as it's a thin boxy tower with those added frills for affect then this tower will be just fine. I think people can feel optimistic about this without knicker twisting.

Imagine how much better Nordstrom would have been if it kept the same form but had some Hadid frills. I'm hopeful for a touch of her Miami where as I was never optimistic for AS+GG Chicago.

streetscaper Sep 12, 2015 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkyscrapersOfNewYork (Post 7161220)
Ya know,I dont want to antagonize you and i try to keep my mouth shut but as a mod i have ajob to do. In all honesty,your annoying. You seem to always have an overtly pestimistic view on NYC developments and perhaps its not just with NY maybe its across the forum but i can only speak for what I oversee. Your points would be more valid if you presented them in an intellectual and well thought out manner but instead its like you post comments in the hope that someone will argue back in anger. Personally i've always felt that way about you as have others. Your the exact opposite of J R Ewing but your both cut from the same thread. My patience runs thin lately and your thinly veiled city bashing won't go on for much longer,give what i've said here some thought.

:worship::worship:

LordYu Sep 26, 2015 3:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scalziand (Post 7161046)
Also for a reminder, here's Hadid's proposal for 425 Park.

http://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.c...bump.jpg?w=360

yeah no, that would just look out of place

artspook Sep 26, 2015 6:54 AM

your words sound hopeful Chris . . .
"A slender super tall with that futuristic touch and an alien nature . .
could be something that we may see" . . And that sounds just fine with me . . I think . .
You never know 'till you see it of course . .

Any of the posts of Hadid's work shown in this thread so far . .
would look much cooler less squat . . if they were formed into a much taller -
more slender proportion . . . That's exactly what we're suppose to get here anyway . .
Serious sleek architectural alien "futuristic" - Absolutely. Bring it on . .
Sophisticated Soaring Shape is the most inspiring . .

But beware of the shapes option in the hands of the less talented . .
Shape can easily get ridiculous . . goofy badly-proportioned Mighty-Toy "futuristic" -
. . please God . . no cringe-worthy sh*t ! . . not in Manhattan . . not on 5th Ave.

Hadid's work is consistently good . .
providing developer and client . . don't mangle the essential brilliance of design . .
to save dough at the end of the process . . Let's hope a tall beauty here is forthcoming .
There's plenty of bad bland "normal" background buildings in Midtown to absorb the jolt.
(even some new ones) . .

Hudson11 Oct 19, 2015 9:03 PM

a massing is present in this cityrealty rendering right of 432 Park - towering over 53w53rd:

http://www.6sqft.com/subway-inn-site...pertall-tower/

http://www.6sqft.com/wp-content/uplo...h-street-6.jpg

NYguy Oct 21, 2015 2:08 AM

http://nypost.com/2015/10/20/the-nex...t-skyscrapers/


Quote:

New York is undergoing a skyscraper evolution with a slew of towers ranging from 800 feet tall to nearly twice that; and all clamoring for a spot on the skyline.

There are at least 15 that will top 1,000 feet tall — with just Extell’s One57 open but not sold out — and another dozen or so that will be upwards of 500 feet.

In Midtown, Kushner Companies and Vornado Realty Trust are considering re-stacking 666 Fifth to 1,400 feet, and repurposing it to residential and hotel.


NYguy Apr 1, 2016 2:20 AM

Quote:

http://nypost.com/2015/09/10/real-es...wer-into-mall/


Real estate heavyweights Steve Roth and Jared Kushner are mulling a plan to reposition the 1957-era aluminum-clad 666 Fifth Ave. office tower into a 1,400-foot vertical mall, hotel and residential tower.

The Post has also learned that Pritzker Prize-winning architect Zaha Hadid has already prepared a scheme that would restack the current 41-story building into a slender, super-tall hotel and residential tower above a vertical retail podium.



Quote:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/31/europe...ha-hadid-dead/

Architect Zaha Hadid dies at 65

March 31, 2016


Sad note.



http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/162903616/original.jpg

Zapatan Apr 1, 2016 7:37 PM

RIP Zaha, she was very talented! :(

I wonder what the fate of this tower will be now, we'll need to find another starchitect.

Crawford Apr 1, 2016 7:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zapatan (Post 7391634)
RIP Zaha, she was very talented! :(

I wonder what the fate of this tower will be now, we'll need to find another starchitect.

She already designed this tower, so we may or may not get another Zaha Hadid tower. They could use her design, or choose another architect, of course.

Since nothing has been released, hard for any of us to really opine, because we have no idea of the plans.

Zapatan Apr 1, 2016 8:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 7391649)
She already designed this tower, so we may or may not get another Zaha Hadid tower. They could use her design, or choose another architect, of course.

Since nothing has been released, hard for any of us to really opine, because we have no idea of the plans.

I didn't realize it had already been designed, hope they stick with whatever it is because I usually like her work.

Zapatan Apr 2, 2016 3:08 AM

I also think it would be a bit insulting to her to not user her design now that she's passed. She would have wanted to see it built.

Sky88 Apr 2, 2016 9:34 AM

In Memoriam: Zaha Hadid’s Projects in New York

http://www.6sqft.com/in-memoriam-zah...new-york-city/

666 Fifth Avenue
Midtown
Vornado Realty and Kushner Companies
Unbuilt | 2015


Perhaps one of the most exciting design rumors to surface last fall was that real estate titans Steve Roth and Jared Kushner may be conjuring up a plan to build a 1,400-foot mixed-use supertall skyscraper at 666 Fifth Avenue designed by Zaha Hadid. According to the Post, Hadid had already prepared a scheme that would re-stack vertically the existing 41-story office building.


http://www.6sqft.com/wp-content/uplo...fth-Avenue.jpg
Google Earth rendering of what a 1,400-foot tower could look like on the site of 666 Fifth Avenue, via 6sqft

chris08876 Apr 2, 2016 3:34 PM

^^^^^

Its kinda like a taller 1000 Museum in a sense. I'd be happy with a design such as this gracing 5th Avenue. It'll be a testament to her work, and will solidify it permanently to the NYC skyline.

http://www.designboom.com/wp-content...ignboom-03.jpg
Credit: http://www.designboom.com/architectu...miami-skyline/

Zapatan Apr 2, 2016 7:17 PM

I hope they build that! I dig it... it does look like a twice as tall version of the Miami one.

Crawford Apr 2, 2016 7:28 PM

I would be very happy with that design. We'll see.

chris08876 Apr 2, 2016 9:02 PM

Its speculative and most likely not what the design will look like. I do hope it will share some of the elements of 1000 Museum or her other work.

Quote:

Google Earth rendering of what a 1,400-foot tower could look like on the site of 666 Fifth Avenue, via 6sqft
Could.... :sly:

I think 6sqft would be better off mentioning that such a design will be in a similar style to Hadid's other work, but not use a stretched 1000 Museum for sake of hypothesizing a potential tower. Its misleading and a publicity tactic.

tdawg Apr 3, 2016 9:43 PM

I honestly was never a big fan of her work. It's a tragic loss for her family and the industry as a whole though. She was a pioneer for other female architects.

NYguy Apr 4, 2016 5:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris08876 (Post 7392585)
I think 6sqft would be better off mentioning that such a design will be in a similar style to Hadid's other work, but not use a stretched 1000 Museum for sake of hypothesizing a potential tower. Its misleading and a publicity tactic.

I guess they figured it was pretty obvious. As you caught it - could means exactly that. Always read precisely what the words say, and not just look at the pretty pictures....;)


Anyway, a 1,400 ft tower would look nice there. But between this and Barnet's potential new tower, along with the tower at 520 5th Ave., Fifth Ave is being pushed back into the spotlight of tall skyscrapers. None other than the ESB of course leads the way.

Eidolon Apr 21, 2016 9:52 AM

Grieving and Going Forward: How Zaha Hadid’s Firm Plans to Move On

By STEVEN ERLANGER
APRIL 20, 2016

Quote:

At the Hadid firm, it is falling to Patrik Schumacher, the thoughtful German who worked alongside Ms. Hadid for 28 years and was her senior partner, to pick up the pieces: keep the staff together, the work flow strong and the clients happy. In a recent interview, he said the firm was moving forward with existing projects, including a stadium for the 2022 World Cup in Qatar; a tower in New York; a bridge in Taipei, Taiwan; and the Iraqi Parliament.
I will patiently wait for this one (like there was something else to do at my end), but it seems that the resilient Hadid firm was not too badly shaken up by the sudden loss of their super star. Here's to hoping we get more info soon.

NYguy Apr 21, 2016 12:09 PM

Quote:

In a recent interview, he said the firm was moving forward with existing projects, including a stadium for the 2022 World Cup in Qatar; a tower in New York
I do hope it's this one. I would love to see what they had planned here. There's also the building at the High Line, but I wouldn't call it a "tower".

urbanlife Apr 22, 2016 4:47 AM

Such a tragic loss the the architecture community, it is good to see some of her final projects will be moving forward.

chris08876 Mar 14, 2017 12:48 AM

Kushners Set to Get $400 Million From Chinese Firm on Tower

Quote:

A company owned by the family of Jared Kushner, President Donald Trump’s son-in-law and senior adviser, stands to receive more than $400 million from a prominent Chinese company that is investing in the Kushners’ marquee Manhattan office tower at 666 Fifth Ave.

The planned $4-billion transaction includes terms that some real estate experts consider unusually favorable for the Kushners. It provides them with both a sizable cash payout from Anbang Insurance Group for a property that has struggled financially and an equity stake in a new partnership.
:cheers:

The details of the agreement, which is being circulated to attract additional investors, were shared with Bloomberg. It would make business partners of Kushner Cos. and Anbang, whose murky links to the Chinese power structure have raised national security concerns over its U.S. investments. In the process, an existing mortgage owed by the Kushners will be slashed to about a fifth of its current amount.

The document offers a rare look at a major deal by a close Trump associate and family member. It’s unclear whether the deal could prompt federal review, as occurred when Anbang bought other properties, like the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in Manhattan. Anbang could also face review by the Chinese government, which has been clamping down on overseas investments and which has a range of pending issues with the Trump administration.
Controversial Visa Program

Quote:

The proposed partnership is seeking additional participants through a controversial federal program known as EB-5, which is intended for economically distressed neighborhoods and provides residency permits to major foreign investors.

The deal would value the 41-story tower at $2.85 billion, the most ever for a single Manhattan building: $1.6 billion for the office section and $1.25 billion for the retail section. The new partnership will refinance $1.15 billion in existing mortgage debt.

"This is a huge, huge exit strategy for an office building," said Joshua Stein, a New York real estate lawyer. "It does sound like a home run of a transaction for Kushner and his group.”

Scott A. Singer, president of the Singer & Bassuk Organization, said the terms struck him as “aggressive but not absurd,” based on the net income and square footage metrics he was shown by Bloomberg. He said they were along the lines of what might be expected for a trophy asset :yes: at a prime location.
===========================
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-marquee-tower

NYguy Mar 14, 2017 12:35 PM

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...-666-fifth-ave

March 13, 2017


Quote:

.....Anbang will pay for most of the building and take out a construction loan of more than $4 billion to convert the property’s higher floors into luxury residential units.



http://www.crainsnewyork.com/apps/pb...tail-tower.jpg

hunser Mar 14, 2017 1:22 PM

$4 billion? Trophy asset? Bring it on! :yes:

NYguy Mar 14, 2017 1:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunser (Post 7739829)
$4 billion? Trophy asset? Bring it on! :yes:


Yeah, we never quite got a look at the "reconfiguration" that was planned. But for the amounts of money involved, I definitely think this would be more than simply converting the upper floors to residential.


https://therealdeal.com/2017/03/13/a...ower-at-2-85b/

Quote:

.....The Chinese insurer is also seeking a $4 billion construction loan to turn the building’s top floors into luxury condominiums, according to Bloomberg. That loan, if received, would be the largest-ever construction loan for a single property in New York.

Documents sent out to prospective investors claim the finished building will be worth $7.2 billion, according to Bloomberg. It’s not clear how Kushner Companies arrived at that figure – the GM Building, long considered the most valuable office tower in the U.S., is valued at just $3.4 billion.


chris08876 Mar 14, 2017 2:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYguy (Post 7739856)
Yeah, we never quite got a look at the "reconfiguration" that was planned. But for the amounts of money involved, I definitely think this would be more than simply converting the upper floors to residential.

Current set up could support a super tall and 4 billion guarantees us at least 950 ft +.

Mixed used, with the addition of residential will make height a priority in terms of pricing. Better views demand better prices. So given that there is a luxury residential component on the upper floors, it will most likely catar to similar buys like we've seen on 57th Street. And with that, a tower needs to stand out to attract those tenants.

NYguy Mar 14, 2017 2:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris08876 (Post 7739869)
Current set up could support a super tall and 4 billion guarantees us at least 950 ft +.

Mixed used, with the addition of residential will make height a priority in terms of pricing. Better views demand better prices. So given that there is a luxury residential component on the upper floors, it will most likely catar to similar buys like we've seen on 57th Street. And with that, a tower needs to stand out to attract those tenants.


This was the original plan:


Quote:

Real estate heavyweights Steve Roth and Jared Kushner are mulling a plan to reposition the 1957-era aluminum-clad 666 Fifth Ave. office tower into a 1,400-foot vertical mall, hotel and residential tower.

The Post has also learned that Pritzker Prize-winning architect Zaha Hadid has already prepared a scheme that would restack the current 41-story building into a slender, super-tall hotel and residential tower above a vertical retail podium.

Because of its location, a significant part of the tower would have unobstructed views of Central Park.


I can still see that scheme taking shape, it would need that large construction loan. The current king of "hybrid" new and old construction in New York is SHoP Architects. They should be in the mix, though we never know who would be involved in these things.


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