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liat91 Apr 13, 2007 9:15 AM

Demographics of Europe
 
Now this thread covers a huge amount of information
research so any input would be appreciated. I would
like to figure out the demographics of major European
countries. Some are obvious, such as Great Britain being
91% white etc.....
Now how about;
1.France: I know their officially policy is not to keep records on racial classifications of their population, but their must be some other formula
to figure out the demographics of France.
2.Germany
3.Spain
4.Italy
5.Netherlands
6.Switzerland
7.Belgium
8.Denmark
9.Norway
10.Sweden and etc...
And for the super brains out there.... can you figure out what the racial
demographics are for Europe as a whole.
Classification being:
1. European/Caucasian/White or overwhelming so
2. Sub-Saharan African
3. East and South Asian
4. Middle Eastern (ecluding Isreal, Turkey which I would consider Caucasian.

Well to some this might seem redundant or what's the point. But I really don't think a comprehensive look into this niche has really been explored. Thank you for any involvement..

Swede Apr 13, 2007 9:30 AM

Sweden, like France, does not keep tabs on people's ethnicity. Country of origin is tho, as is 2nd generation immigrants (recently re-defined so both parents have to be born abroad). http://www.scb.se is home of the official statistics (Statistiska Centralbyrån).

FREKI Apr 13, 2007 3:29 PM

Don't expect to find such info in Denmark either - that whole racial thing isn't used here... like Sweden we use country of origin/non-Danish ancestry...

Minato Ku Apr 13, 2007 4:49 PM

I think that more than 10% of population of France are not white but we haven't figure :)

In France we cannot use french / non-french ancestry because the majority of french people are foreign origin.
But we use : native in france/native in foreign countries.

Qaabus Apr 13, 2007 5:12 PM

For the Netherlands:

19,3% of the population or 3 147 615 people were born in a foreign country or have at least one parent born in a foreign country.


1 427 565 people were born in a foreign western country or had at least one parent born in a foreign western country. (Europe, North-America, Oceania, Indonesia or Japan.)

1 720 050 people were born in a foreign non-western or have at least one parent born in a foreign non-western country.
Morocco 323 239
Nederlandse Antillen + Aruba 129 683
Suriname 331 890
Turkey 364 333
Other 570 905

FREKI Apr 14, 2007 4:16 PM

Immigrants in Denmark:

Western Countries: ( immigrants: 116.071 descendants: 15.461 ) in all: 131.532

Non-western countries: ( immigrants: 227.296 descendants: 93.267 ) in all: 320.563

Immigrants in all: 452.095 ( out of 5.4mil ) = 8,4%


Non-Danish citizenship of population: 267.604 = 4.9%


By country ( 2005 ):

Turkey 54.859 12,1 %
Iraq 26.351 5,8 %
Germany 25.446 5,6 %
Lebanon 22.232 4,9 %
Bosnia-Hercegovina 20.875 4,6 %
Pakistan 19.301 4,3 %
Yugoslavia 17.528 3,9 %
Somalia 16.952 3,7 %
Norway 15.671 3,5 %
Iran 14.289 3,2 %
Sweden 14.285 3,2 %
Poland 13.509 3,0 %
Vietnam 12.654 2,8 %
UK 12.000 2,7 %
Afghanistan 10.876 2,4 %
Sri Lanka 10.291 2,3 %
Marocco 8.974 2,0 %
Iceland 7.617 1,7 %
China 7.562 1,7 %
Thailand 6.980 1,5 %
Other 113.843 25,2 %

http://www.nyidanmark.dk/bibliotek/s...ublication.htm

look Apr 14, 2007 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liat91 (Post 2764422)
4. Middle Eastern (ecluding Isreal, Turkey which I would consider Caucasian.

How about Georgians, Armenians and Azeris?

Nexus6 Apr 15, 2007 1:16 AM

http://www.migrationinformation.org/...06_euromap.jpg

Nexus6 Apr 15, 2007 1:50 AM

http://www.theislamproject.org/image...rope_final.jpg

DiggerD21 Apr 15, 2007 2:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liat91 (Post 2764422)
Classification being:
1. European/Caucasian/White or overwhelming so
2. Sub-Saharan African
3. East and South Asian
4. Middle Eastern (ecluding Isreal, Turkey which I would consider Caucasian.

There are no official statistics in Germany with this (or a similar) classification. The stats here are about nationality and country of origin, but not "race".

Grumpy Apr 15, 2007 6:05 PM

Liège has a significant Muslim population in Belgium :shrug:
This city has a large population from Italians but Muslims ???

SHiRO Apr 15, 2007 11:03 PM

15% muslims in Austria? I don't buy it...
Also, there are 1 million muslims in the Netherlands which is 6% not 3%.

GENIUS LOCI Apr 19, 2007 8:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus6 (Post 2768463)

Bit outdated... Italy data of foreign pop at the end of 2005 (only registered, not illegal immigrants) say there are more than 3 mio immigrants on a total population of almost 59 mio: that means percentage is over 5%

However, even if there are not official data yet, in 2006 immigrants (always 'registered') increased of about 700k units, maybe more (it isn't still clear if part of 'em, about 570k, will be computed for year 2006 or 2007, being the result of a sort of regularization of part of illegal immigrants: but they still are checking every single case to accept it)


Then.. even Italy doesn't keep racial classification of the population

SHiRO Apr 19, 2007 10:32 PM

Keep in mind that these maps are about foreign born population.

look Apr 23, 2007 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus6 (Post 2768530)

Poland 2%? :LOL:
It less than 0.1% according to Wikipedia

JManc Apr 24, 2007 9:32 PM

majority of french people are of foreign origin? somehow i don't buy that.

Minato Ku Apr 24, 2007 10:04 PM

Yes Italian, Spanish, British....
More than 60% of french said to have a foreign origin (I talk about old ancestry since the end of the 19th century at now ;) )
It is like USA where about 80% of the population has not pilgrin or indian ancestry.

Nantais Apr 24, 2007 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minato Ku (Post 2791769)
Yes Italian, Spanish, British....
More than 60% of french said to have a foreign origin (I talk about old ancestry since the end of the 19th century at now ;) )
It is like USA where about 80% of the population has not pilgrin or indian ancestry.

Well I don't know where you have been reading that, but these figures seem very improbable.
The only figure I've often heard about is that 25 % of French people have at least one grandparent from immigrant origin (meaning that the other three can be from French origin - and meaning that the other 75 % of French people have their 4 grandparents of French origin).

Mercutio Apr 25, 2007 4:16 PM

These are the latest (mid 2004) official figures for England only (NB not for the UK):
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/StatBas...asp?vlnk=14238


Population of England (not UK) by ethnic group in mid 2004 (000s):

- Total = 50,093.1
- White: British = 42,708.9
- White: Irish = 601.4
- White: Other White = 1,523.7
- Mixed: White and Black Caribbean = 257.3
- Mixed: White and Black African = 95.2
- Mixed: White and Asian = 220.1
- Mixed: Other Mixed = 180.2
- Asian or Asian British: Indian = 1167.7
- Asian or Asian British: Pakistani = 803
- Asian or Asian British: Bangladeshi = 314.9
- Asian or Asian British: Other Asian = 294
- Black or Black British: Black Caribbean = 585.2
- Black or Black British: Black African = 624
- Black or Black British: Other Black = 106.7
- Chinese or Other Ethnic Group: Chinese = 312.4
- Chinese or Other Ethnic Group: Other = 298.6



Fastest growing groups, annual percentage gain 2003-4:

1) Chinese or Other Ethnic Group: Chinese = 8.5%
2) Chinese or Other Ethnic Group: Other = 7.1%
3) Black or Black British: Black African = 6.8%
4) Mixed: White and Black African = 6.3%
5) Mixed: White and Asian = 5.5%
6) White: Other White = 5.5%
7) Asian or Asian British: Other Asian = 5.35%
8) Mixed: Other Mixed = 5.3%



White/non-White and British Percentages in mid 2004:

- The white British population = 85.3%
- The total white population = 89.5%
- The non white British population = 14.7%
- The non white population = 10.5%



Note that "white" on the UK census includes Turks who may be considered non-white in, say, Germany (at least according to Checker ;) ). It also includes all migrants from the former USSR (some of whom are only dubiously white). The Chinese or Other: Other group lumps together Arabs, Iranians, Filipinos, Malaysians, Vietnamese, Japanese etc.

JManc Apr 25, 2007 6:10 PM

wow, i had no idea tha UK was that white. yeah, i wouldnt think turks were anything but white.

however, in the US, indians, paksianis, iranians arabs and armenians are also considerd white.

Mercutio Apr 25, 2007 6:23 PM

^ Yeah but in the US Latinos are counted separately even though many are white. Also black/white mixed people are always termed as "black" in the US.

JManc Apr 25, 2007 8:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercutio (Post 2794050)
^ Yeah but in the US Latinos are counted separately even though many are white. Also black/white mixed people are always termed as "black" in the US.

no. most hispanics are not white (mostly mestizo and amerindian) and are not counted separately. mixed race whites/blacks typically check "black" on the form becuase they perceive themselves as black.

Mercutio Apr 25, 2007 10:47 PM

^ So are you telling me that Amerindian Mexicans are counted as white on the US census?

Mercutio Apr 26, 2007 12:03 AM

Some London figures:



These are the figures for London, Inner London, Outer London, and London and Home Counties* respectively. As you can see Outer London is only slightly whiter than Inner London - mainly because most of the Indian population lives in the outer suburbs which offsets the other minorities being more numerous in Inner London. Metro London is considerably whiter than London itself. However the totals are of course larger. Including mixed-race there are 1.1 million blacks in metro London and 1.3 million South Asians.



Population of London by ethnic group in mid 2004 (000s):

- Total = 7,428.6
- White: British = 4,336.5
- White: Irish = 200.6
- White: Other White = 645.1
- Mixed: White and Black Caribbean = 73.6
- Mixed: White and Black African = 38.4
- Mixed: White and Asian = 68
- Mixed: Other Mixed = 67.7
- Asian or Asian British: Indian = 473.8
- Asian or Asian British: Pakistani = 161.8
- Asian or Asian British: Bangladeshi = 165.9
- Asian or Asian British: Other Asian = 147.6
- Black or Black British: Black Caribbean = 334.4
- Black or Black British: Black African = 412.5
- Black or Black British: Other Black = 62.1
- Chinese or Other Ethnic Group: Chinese = 103
- Chinese or Other Ethnic Group: Other = 137.5

Non white and non-white British percentages in mid 2004:
- The non white British population = 41.6%
- The non white population = 30.2%



Inner London by ethnic group in mid 2004 (000s):

- Total = 2,931.1
- White: British = 1,500.3
- White: Irish = 84.4
- White: Other White = 350.1
- Mixed: White and Black Caribbean = 35.6
- Mixed: White and Black African = 19.2
- Mixed: White and Asian = 27.8
- Mixed: Other Mixed = 32.5
- Asian or Asian British: Indian = 105.4
- Asian or Asian British: Pakistani = 51.1
- Asian or Asian British: Bangladeshi = 132.5
- Asian or Asian British: Other Asian = 42.6
- Black or Black British: Black Caribbean = 178
- Black or Black British: Black African = 220.6
- Black or Black British: Other Black = 35.3
- Chinese or Other Ethnic Group: Chinese = 53.1
- Chinese or Other Ethnic Group: Other = 62.7

Non white and non-white British percentages in mid 2004:
- The non white British population = 48.8%
- The non white population = 34%



Outer London by ethnic group in mid 2004 (000s):

- Total = 4,497.5
- White: British = 2,836.2
- White: Irish = 116.2
- White: Other White = 295
- Mixed: White and Black Caribbean = 38
- Mixed: White and Black African = 19.2
- Mixed: White and Asian = 40.3
- Mixed: Other Mixed = 35.3
- Asian or Asian British: Indian = 368.4
- Asian or Asian British: Pakistani = 110.7
- Asian or Asian British: Bangladeshi = 33.3
- Asian or Asian British: Other Asian = 105.1
- Black or Black British: Black Caribbean = 156.4
- Black or Black British: Black African = 191.9
- Black or Black British: Other Black = 26.8
- Chinese or Other Ethnic Group: Chinese = 49.9
- Chinese or Other Ethnic Group: Other = 74.9

Non white and non-white British percentages in mid 2004:
- The non white British population = 36.9%
- The non white population = 27.8%



London and Home Counties* by ethnic group in mid 2004 (000s):

- Total = 14,107
- White: British = 10,192.7
- White: Irish = 284
- White: Other White = 861
- Mixed: White and Black Caribbean = 102
- Mixed: White and Black African = 49
- Mixed: White and Asian = 99
- Mixed: Other Mixed = 91.2
- Asian or Asian British: Indian = 589
- Asian or Asian British: Pakistani = 244
- Asian or Asian British: Bangladeshi = 191
- Asian or Asian British: Other Asian = 180.2
- Black or Black British: Black Caribbean = 380
- Black or Black British: Black African = 465
- Black or Black British: Other Black = 70
- Chinese or Other Ethnic Group: Chinese = 139
- Chinese or Other Ethnic Group: Other = 171

Non white and non-white British percentages in mid 2004:
- The non white British population = 27.7%
- The non white population = 19.6%




* London and Home Counties = London + Kent + Surrey + Buckinghamshire + Hertfordshire + Essex + Luton UA + Thurrock UA + Southend on Sea UA + Medway UA + Bracknell Forest UA + Reading UA + Slough UA + Windsor and Maidenhead UA + Wokingham UA




--------------------------------------------------------------------------




London Boroughs

Brent pips Newham with slightly more non white British (69.4% to 67.3%) but Newham has more non whites at 61%. Highlighted in red:




Inner London

Borough, % non white British, % non white
Camden, 47.5, 28.4
City of London, 32.6, 17.4
Hackney, 53.7, 39.9
Hammersmith & Fulham, 41.2, 22.2
Haringey, 53.1, 35.2
Islington, 41.8, 25.2
Kensington and Chelsea, 51.5, 23.1
Lambeth, 46.8, 35.2
Lewisham , 43.7, 34.7
Newham, 67.3, 61.0
Southwark, 46.9, 36.0
Tower Hamlets, 56.3, 46.7
Wandsworth, 34.1, 21.0
Westminster, 52.1, 28.9



Outer London

Borough, % non white British, % non white
Barking and Dagenham, 25.3, 20.3
Barnet, 42.0, 28.3
Bexley, 15.3, 11.4
Brent, 69.4, 54.4
Bromley, 16.3, 10.7
Croydon, 39.9, 33.2
Ealing, 54.6, 41.4
Enfield, 41.9, 26.9
Greenwich, 33.2, 25.6
Harrow, 52.1, 43.6
Havering, 11.0, 7.4
Hillingdon, 31.5, 24.3
Hounslow, 45.8, 36.9
Kingston upon Thames, 27.3, 18.5
Merton, 38.0, 26.3
Redbridge, 46.1, 39.7
Richmond upon Thames, 24.5, 10.8
Sutton, 19.1, 13.3
Waltham Forest, 46.3, 36.8




--------------------------------------------------------------------------




The above figures are all from mid 2004. Of course UK immigration has been at record levels since then. Much media attention has been focussed on arrivals from the new EU member states (since May 1st 2004) and there are no reliable figures on the numbers of A8 immigrants in Britain. The government says 600,000 have applied for the worker registration scheme but that doesn't include the self-employed or those who simply couldn't be bothered to register but who work here anyway (like some Lithuanian forum friends of mine.... ;) ). On the other hand some of the 600,000 will not stay here permanently.

Outside the EU the figures for legal immigrants, at least, are a bit more reliable. Below are the official numbers of immigrants by country in 2005. Note that some groups are more likely to stay permanently in Britain than others. Americans, Australian, New Zealanders, Japanese and western Europeans will often work here for a few years and then return. Many Chinese are students so will study for a few years and then return. However Africans and Indians are mainly coming in via marriage and are most likely to stay in Britain permanently:


2005 Immigrants to Britain by Country:

01) India = 92,000
02) Australia = 78,000
03) Poland = 69,000
04) South Africa = 63,000
05) US = 50,000
06) China = 49,000
07) Pakistan = 46,000
08) Germany = 43,000
09) France = 28,000
10) New Zealand = 27,000
11) Spain = 27,000
12) Philippines = 20,000
13) Nigeria = 19,000
14) Japan = 17,000
15) Bangladesh = 17,000

JManc Apr 26, 2007 3:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercutio (Post 2794841)
^ So are you telling me that Amerindian Mexicans are counted as white on the US census?

i don't know.

crisp444 Apr 26, 2007 3:57 AM

On the census, Hispanics mark their race (white, black, Native American, Asian/Pacific Islander, or "Other") and then a separate box to indicate Hispanic ancestry. Amerindian Hispanics usually mark "Other" because "Native American" on the census only refers to indigenous groups in North America and not south of the border. The Hispanic box is for anyone of Hispanic ancestry regardless of their race or racial mix.

CHapp Apr 26, 2007 6:30 AM

How do you manage to remember all those categories and subcategories, crisp?

The last US census was years ago ...

crisp444 Apr 27, 2007 10:01 PM

Well, actually there is a census every five years in the US. However, the big, official one is published every ten. One can view the 2000 or 2005 census anytime on the internet.

Nexus6 May 2, 2007 8:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercutio (Post 2793734)
Note that "white" on the UK census includes Turks who may be considered non-white in, say, Germany (at least according to Checker ;) ).

There are no statistics about race or skin color in Germany. That is a taboo.

Swede May 2, 2007 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus6 (Post 2810207)
There are no statistics about race or skin color in Germany. That is a taboo.

true, but like in Sweden I hardly think Turks are considerd "white" by most people. "White" in the northEuroeapn sense is hardly the same as "caucasian" in the US sense.

MtnClimber May 3, 2007 1:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swede (Post 2810694)
true, but like in Sweden I hardly think Turks are considerd "white" by most people. "White" in the northEuroeapn sense is hardly the same as "caucasian" in the US sense.

I Agree. Even in the united states, even though turks are legally caucasian. I very highly doubt the "average" white man looks at a Turks the same as a white person of european ancestry, except for a few select locales.

liat91 May 3, 2007 7:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MtnClimber (Post 2810971)
I Agree. Even in the united states, even though turks are legally caucasian. I very highly doubt the "average" white man looks at a Turks the same as a white person of european ancestry, except for a few select locales.

Do Turks look at least Italianesque in look? The reason being is that I have witnessed that some Turks and Iranians totally look white, while others definitely have that Arab look.

Anyway, some give a shot in the dark hear; what is Europe demographically, focusing on the white percentage in this case anyway.
95%, 90%, 85% white or what. If Great Britain is 90% white then from just from limited common knowledge about France I would guess it is about 85% white and Germany about 90% like GB. Italy is probably 90% white and Spain I would guess at 80% white. Europe as a whole........ 90% white. Europe is the motherland for the European race, immigration is fine but to keep the continent intact it should never fall below 80% white for any reason.

crisp444 May 3, 2007 8:37 AM

Actually, Spain is probably well over 90% white. Remember that it had very little immigration until very recently (and lots of the current immigrants are white too, actually). Italy is undoubtedly 95% + white.

Swede May 3, 2007 9:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liat91 (Post 2811565)
Do Turks look at least Italianesque in look? The reason being is that I have witnessed that some Turks and Iranians totally look white, while others definitely have that Arab look.

Not many Italians 'round here, so couldn't say. But, yeah, there's plenty of variety in looks among those from the Middle East (and certainly not just based on ethnicity) smae goes for people from pretty much everywhere in my experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by liat91 (Post 2811565)
Europe is the motherland for the European race, immigration is fine but to keep the continent intact it should never fall below 80% white for any reason.

WTF? That's really blatant racism. :koko: With most of Europe being modern liberal democracies, you'll find that we don't care about that kind of thing - our system is based on the individual, not "race" (which is just a social construct anyway).

liat91 May 3, 2007 6:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crisp444 (Post 2811592)
Actually, Spain is probably well over 90% white. Remember that it had very little immigration until very recently (and lots of the current immigrants are white too, actually). Italy is undoubtedly 95% + white.

Watch the movie Volver and you might change your mind.

MtnClimber May 4, 2007 3:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liat91 (Post 2811565)
Do Turks look at least Italianesque in look? The reason being is that I have witnessed that some Turks and Iranians totally look white, while others definitely have that Arab look.
.

Of course some turks look white. But the vast majority do not. Many Turks and Persians are very dark in complexion. Of course there are outlyers in any group. Even many Scilians and Greeks are fairly dark. But that is besides the point, as someone else pointed out earlier it does not matter what percetange of europe is "white"

SHiRO May 4, 2007 3:35 AM

And I guess you are talking with some kind of authority here? Like actually being around Turks everyday? :shrug:

I honestly question your motives of being in this thread also taking into account your deleted post.

And FYI, the vast mayority of Turks do look "white"...:rolleyes:

MtnClimber May 4, 2007 8:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SHiRO (Post 2813541)
And I guess you are talking with some kind of authority here? Like actually being around Turks everyday? :shrug:

I honestly question your motives of being in this thread also taking into account your deleted post.

And FYI, the vast mayority of Turks do look "white"...:rolleyes:

To answer your question. Yes I have been around Turks alot.

Even though I am not Turkish. I have relatives of Armenian ancestry which is right next to Turkey. And I know that even among the Armenian community, many Armenians have faced discrimination. Culturally speaking Armenians are more accepted by Europeans then turks.

I am not even going into the whole racial classification issue.

That being said, I think the fact that the EU has given Turkey such a hard time says alot. I am not saying the EU is racist, but I know for a fact in Germany that Turks are defintly not considered white. "White looking" yes but thats about it. I bet if you talked to many of the Turks living in Eastern Europe you would know what I am talking about. There has been some rather noteworthy incidents of racial violence against Turks in Germany. Again I am not blaming the EU. I think the EU is tolerant as a whole. But it does not change the fact that the average European does not consider Turks to be white as you suggest SHIRO.

For every light skinned Turk you point to me, I can give you a dark skinned example. Turkey is a very diverse country, some turks are very asiatic looking, others look more European. But the vast majority are somewhere in between.

This thread is about the demographics of Europe. If you want to jump on someone, jump on Liat. He is the one who suggested that Europe should be mostly European. ;oP

SHiRO May 4, 2007 2:04 PM

There arent many Turks living in Eastern Europe. Most Turks in Europe live in Germany, the Netherlands, the UK, Austria and France (excluding the European part of Turkey of course).

"The EU" can't be racist or tolerant because the EU is not an entity who can possess such attributes. Besides the EU is made up of 27 member states and in all of those states the general attitute on immigrants differs.

I don't know of any notable racial incidents against Turks in Germany, if they are so notable you should name them, but I suspect you are talking out of your ass again. Sure there are bound to be incidents seeing how large the Turkish community is in Germany, but nothing out of the "ordinary".

Turks are not seen as white, neither are they seen as mongeloid or black, because generally in Europe people are not classified that way. So Americans coming in here telling us that Turks are not considered white in Europe is laughable. Turks are Turks and Germans are Germans.

Also your distinction between light skinned and dark skinned is pointless. Most Turks could easily be mistaken for Greeks. There are other countries where there are a lot of people with "dark skin" like Spain, France, Portugal, Italy. Due to centuries of mixing, Northern Europeans could just as easily have darker skin. Sure, most Turks can be recognized as such, but not on their skin color. I assure you that most Turks are light skinned.
With your "somewhere in between" line you are finally hitting some truth, but how do you think people look like in other European countries? Not all Swedes are blond and blue eyes, not all Italians are dark haired.
But you wouldn't know because you probably never been here, right?

R@ptor May 4, 2007 3:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MtnClimber (Post 2813926)
but I know for a fact in Germany that Turks are defintly not considered white.

:rolleyes: yeah right. Just out of curiosity...have you ever been to either Germany or Turkey?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MtnClimber (Post 2813926)
There has been some rather noteworthy incidents of racial violence against Turks in Germany.

Of course you are certainly able to provide several links of such "incidents" to prove your claim, aren't you???

Swede May 4, 2007 4:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MtnClimber (Post 2813926)
... but I know for a fact in Germany that Turks are defintly not considered white.

You do realize that those who care about race up here don't consider italians, spaniards, greeks, russians... white, don't you? White would be Germanic and Celtic only.
Like someone upthread said, reality doesn't follow these made-up "racial" lines. There's always been people moving about Europe and there are in fact no "pure races". For example, I may look 100% Scandinavian but I have anscestors way back from Walloonia and Portugal (iirc).

MtnClimber May 4, 2007 5:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SHiRO (Post 2814170)
I don't know of any notable racial incidents against Turks in Germany, if they are so notable you should name them, but I suspect you are talking out of your ass again. Sure there are bound to be incidents seeing how large the Turkish community is in Germany, but nothing out of the "ordinary".
?

It does not matter what i say, because you probably won't belive me anyway

Wow I can't believe the denial that exists from you. There have been numerous articles posted by the Turkish community addressing this very topic, along with major German newspapers. When I was refering to eastern europe. I was speaking of Eastern Germany, where Turks happen to be one of the most disliked ethnic groups. Fortunately in recent years things have changed for the better.

The Magdeberg incident agianst several turks comes to mind. In fact one Turkish man was nearly burned to death. 5 turks also killed in Solingen. If I remeber this was a fairly newsworth incident. There were also some notable firebombings against mosques. If you wish to look up more, go for it. Go see the accounts for yourself from the muslim community.

I am not saying Germans are racist, but to deny the racism that exists against Turks in Europe is silly. You can start with the Journal of the International Institute. That being said I personally believe the vast majority of Europeans are fairly tolerant. And as i stated earlier vast strides have been made.

And as Swede has said, what one person considers white is only a matter of perception anyways.

DiggerD21 May 4, 2007 6:35 PM

Shiro doesn't deny that there are attacks against turks. He even doesn't deny that turks are often recognised as such. But this is not because of their skin clour, but more because of their social behaviour, accent and cultural background. Skin colour doesn't play a role here. In fact, I don't know any german who even thought about if turks are "white" or not.


BTW: Today the german statistics bureau presented fresh stats:

15,3 million people in Germany have a migration background. That is 18,6% of Germany's total population. 8 million of them have german citizenship. 96% of these 15,3 million live in West Germany and Berlin.
62% of these people have their roots in Europe (this stats included Turkey).
From all people with migration background have the following % the roots in:
Turkey 14,2%
Russia 9,4%
Poland 6,9%
Italy 4,2%
Romania 3%
Serbia and Montenegro 3% (stats were collected before the country split-up)
Bosnia-Herzegovina 2,3%
Greece 2,2%

Free download of the complete stats here.

R@ptor May 4, 2007 7:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MtnClimber (Post 2814601)
5 turks also killed in Solingen. If I remeber this was a fairly newsworth incident.

That was in 1993, 14 years ago...

SHiRO May 4, 2007 9:35 PM

Soon enough she will be bringing up the Holocaust...

R@ptor May 4, 2007 10:11 PM

/\
I really wouldn't be surprised. Afterall she was banned from this forum because of racist remarks about Muslims on the CE forum. Unfortunately it looks like she was unbanned, but if there is someone who has zero credibility on the issue of racism and absolutely no right to lecture others about it, it's definitely her.

SHiRO May 4, 2007 10:31 PM

She was suspended and barred from CE, people only very rarely get banned and then unbanned.

Crawford May 4, 2007 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SHiRO (Post 2813541)
And I guess you are talking with some kind of authority here? Like actually being around Turks everyday? :shrug:

I honestly question your motives of being in this thread also taking into account your deleted post.

And FYI, the vast mayority of Turks do look "white"...:rolleyes:

Most Turks look about the same as Albanians, Muslim Yugoslavians and Greeks. These groups are all pretty much the same due to the Ottoman Empire intermixing.

Southern Turkey has some people with mixed Arab (Syrian or Jordanian) ancestry, but they are a minority. Northern Turkey has people of mixed Russian heritage.

For the American concept of race, I would definitely say Turks are "white." In Germany they are not really considered "white" per se, but neither are Albanians, Kosovars, etc.

Crawford May 4, 2007 11:27 PM

To Mtn Climber: Your bigoted a-- does not need to worry about radical Islam from Turkey.

Turkey is brutally secular - observant Muslims are routinely subject to discrimination. Women are 100% banned from wearing the headscarf in all schools (even Universities). Observant rural areas are denied basic services until residents "comply" with secular mores. Pious Muslims have no chance in the professional world.

As an observant Muslim, I have far more rights in the U.S. and Western Europe than in Turkey.

Nexus6 May 5, 2007 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiggerD21 (Post 2814741)
Shiro doesn't deny that there are attacks against turks. He even doesn't deny that turks are often recognised as such. But this is not because of their skin clour, but more because of their social behaviour, accent and cultural background. Skin colour doesn't play a role here. In fact, I don't know any german who even thought about if turks are "white" or not.

I somewhat agree. If you would ask a random German on the street if Turks are "white", most would probably be puzzled and would not really know what to answer as they never thought about it before. That has to do with the fact that the categories "white" and "non-white" are historically not so established in Germany due to a lack of significant colonial history and contact with "non-whites".

Germans however have a tradition of racially distinguishing themselves from other "whites". Terms such as "südländisch" (literally translated "south landish", roughly meaning "mediterranean") are for instance used to racially describe Turks. But even the term "türkisch" ("Turkish") itself also carries a racial connotation in German and does not just describe a cultural orientation.


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