At this point it is a legitimate proposal at 82 Floors. Who knows if it will get built, but there is real movement here. This thread should be moved to proposals.

Another snippet from the Boom Compilation thread. If you look at the stacking plan it looks to be potentially as much as 250-300' higher than the RR Donnelly Building so this could be pushing supertall status.

Steely you should move the Conservatory Tower thread from never built to proposals. I think it is legit enough at this point.

I'm starting to see confusion in general about whether "west loop" means the West Loop or the west side of the Loop. Not surprising that foreigners wouldn't know what the term means, slightly surprising when other Curbed writers do the same.

I haven't really been paying attention to this tower talk since it just seemed impossible for an 80+ story thing to land in West Loop, but it looks like I need to catch up on it.

^ 201 N Clark isn't even West side of the Loop. It's right in the north central part.

The writers probably thought that West Loop means the west side of the loop as in "west of State Street"

They should just talk to the nice folks over at Wolf Point and build Conservatory Tower over there. No way this, Wolf South and Wanda all get built in my opinion.

this all seems very nebulous (and quite dubious if i'm being honest), but there seems to be enough chatter out there to move this thread back to the active proposals sub-forums, for now anyway.

Yay! This is the sort of height we need in Loop proper!

LVDW do you know if there are condos?

This will be a really cool addition to the skyline if this ends up being the design. I really like how majestic this will look, so sleek and elegant...

Counting pixels, I get 969'.

Nice! Another in the supertall range on the horizon for Chi town :)

If they're all serious proposals then I see no reason why they can't all be built in the next 3-5 yrs.

I think its apartments right now, but we'll see how long that lasts. It says apartments on the section.

This one has "not gonna happen" written all over it.......

Why? If Chicago's next boom is starting it's a great time to build a tower of at least this size.

^ What does that have to do with the probability of this particular tower on this particular site being built by this particular developer(s)?

You're right I'm just saying it would be a good time for any developer to build in Chicago, given the opportunity. I don't know much about them, do they have a bad track record, no previous projects etc?

Well its probably mainly their behavior in just throwing out this announcement willy nilly that he is talking about. They clearly don't know how things work here. But you are right, they could pull this off, but I'm just not betting on it.

^ What's your basis for believing they could pull this off? I suppose I could pull a wild boar out of my ass one of these days. I'm highly skeptical of these folks' ability to pull off anything of this massive a scale. You're wise in not betting on this......even wiser would be putting a little money on the table in a bet against it.....

Anyone can build a building in Chicago if they have the right tenants and financial backers. I know for a fact that the hotel operators are signed on so I'm not worried about who is going to occupy it, I'm worried that the developers apparently don't know their ass from their face when it comes to the development process in Chicago.

That's not insurmountable though, that's just challenging. If you have money and a plan, you can build here, just don't make things unnecessarily harder on yourself by fumbling the entire PR process.

Is there a larger version of the rendering that's the thumbnail image for the thread? Where did that come from? All I see is the night rendering and the blueprint.

As for financing, the hotel operator is from Mexico, does that mean they're funding it? We run a pretty hefty trade deficit with Mexico. Money is like electricity, it has to get back to the source to complete the circuit and make another go round, so I wouldn't be at all surprised to see sizeable investments in America made from Mexican companies. Wanda is similar.

Just saw on the diagram this was moved to proposed. I like being optimistic and all, and its fun to think of what could be but realistically i don't see it happening:shrug:. what evidence do we have anyways? one article about it and LVDW's optimism? What other proof do we have?

Reasons to be highly skeptical of this have nothing to do with PR - you're just obfuscating there - it's all about the deep track record and financial resources/lending connections etc of the developers - or in this case, as many - lack thereof, and you know it. There's just little-to-no reason to believe it exists here.

I'm sure this is an internet forum faux pas on all kinds of obnoxious levels, but I need to go back and quote myself from earlier in the thread. This is everything and more you need to keep front-of-mind when contemplating the prospects for this 'project' eventuating:



"Yeah, this 'project' is not passing the sniff test for reality.......site needs to change hands in a true market arms-length transaction (really this time) before anything is going to be developed there (unfortunately).........don't get me wrong, as 'proposed' this seems like it would be a fantastic addition to the north end of the Loop.....


The 'announcement' or whatever it was recalls the huge f'up of Wanda Dalian in (was it?) 2013 with their premature press release - but importantly without both the stature/assets/track record of Wanda itself, as well as a very established and capable US development partner for its project....." - SamInTheLoop, June 2015

^^^ Dude, I'm not saying this will get built, I'm just saying your "absolutely not" attitude is totally absurd. Virtually nothing about this proposal has been effectively announced at this point and saying "well they don't have a development track record" is insane when you don't even know who "they" is yet. I know for a fact that these brands are signed on and that's the only reason for any optimism I have.

IF a brand like Live Aqua really is backing this, it doesn't fucking matter who the development team is because Rahm will bend over backward to get a second marquee international brand to choose Chicago as it's US port of entry. They could be 13 year old prepubescent boys whose only experience is Sim City, but if they have a contract and funding from a hotel chain like that, then Rahm will have someone at city hall just hold their hand through the entire process.I know you just love to over analyze everything, but at this point there is no information to analyze so chill.

It's not "LDVW's optimism" it's "LDVW talked to someone who would know and they confirmed this is a real project and both Live Aqua and Dream are signed on". It could still never get built and I don't know how far along in the contract process they are, but Live Aqua wouldn't be publicly announcing this unless their agreement was legally binding. Hotel brands can be notoriously flaky because they are rarely both the owner and the operator, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if the development teams flubs this as Sam is so confident they will, but I know for a fact it is a legitimate "proposal" (whatever that even means) at this point.

Zapatan believes in this project. That's all the proof I need!

I do? :rolleyes:

I was really just playing devils advocate/asking Sam why he was being so overtly negative about it when there's not much info, or at least that I've heard which is why I was asking him about the developer's track record etc.

I'm just saying now is a good time to build anything in Chicago because a boom is coming, but if the developer is not legitimate then that obviously puts a damper on things.

If only we could start wagering bets on these projects. Imagine the money that would have been made by betting on the spire or River Point. Or Waterview. Ha just a fun thought. I'll throw fifty in the pot. Perhaps I'll raise when more solid info comes along...

I mean, a big marquee hotel, even a international brand, is certainly no guarantee. See how well that worked out for Shangri-La and Mandarin Oriental...

Of course it isn't, I have repeated that this might not get done ad nauseum, but no one would claim Madarin Oriental or Waterview weren't legitimate proposals which is the comment I was responding too. Who knows whether this will happen, but the odds are significantly higher than the 0% chance that Sam and others would have you believe...

Ok i give it 2% chance then as of now. Lets just see if there is any future info released.

0% does seem harsh. I'm at 1.68% right now.............it's true, more unexpected things have happened....

Agreed, it seems quite unlikely at the moment. I would love to see something here though. The current building is not very attractive, given its neighbors. I would have a perfect view of the construction site, so I might be cheering for this one for very selfish reasons.

Okay well assuming most Chicago forumers know more about the building than I do and think it's not getting built probably means it isn't. Regardless, they should scrap this design and some new, better developer put something even taller here because the location is awesome. :)

http://www.ilnb.uscourts.gov/sites/d...arborn-LLC.pdf

...

^^^ Interesting. The most notable tidbit in there is the involvement of the American Invesco crew. That's relevant because:

A. American Invesco has a track record of getting fairly large projects done.

and

B. American Invesco has royally fucked up just about every project they've been involved in. (See their condo conversions at 200 N Dearborn and River City both of which melted down hard in the recession).

and

C. Unsurprisingly the legal action on this seems to have been triggered by a series of unscrupulous ball-kicks to tenants meted out by the guys running the show.


So the point is that people who were once with the largest condo converter in the last boom which did billions worth of project are running the show here. They aren't exactly inexperienced, but they also have a track record of crash and burn. At the same time it seems that the litigation has been settled out for the most part so, if this thing is going to move forward, I'd expect to hear some noise on it sooner rather than later. You'd think they'd be jonesing to get their zoning app in before the new affordable law kicks in.

^ What in the world are you talking about? American Invsco's involvement (and/or 'shadow involvement') here is perhaps the single most persuasive reason to not expect anything to come of a current proposal. They don't have a track record of actually developing jack. They are a converter, nothing more......with a reputation that, uh, precedes them.....everywhere they go....

You obviously didn't read what I said, more than half of my comment is devoted to talking about how they were the biggest converter in the boom and also one of the biggest implosions. What the involvement of some of their team (namely the CFO) does indicate is that they are not completely inexperienced in development. Let me quote myself so maybe you'll read it this time:

and

Developers go down in flames all the time and then turn around a raise money a few years later. My comment about it being interesting is merely that the people involved aren't total noobs. Fuckups yes, but even you can't say they have no experience raising money for highrise projects. Again, I know they didn't really do new construction, but if you can raise money to purchase and convert tens of thousands of highrise residential units, then you can raise money to build one new construction highrise.

Let me repeat myself again so maybe you'll actually read it this time, I'm not saying they are an all star team that's going to hit this out of the park, I'm saying they are competent enough that they could potentially pull this off. Again again, I am also saying they screwed the pooch hard in the last boom too, so they might fuck it up again here.

^ Again, wtf. Nothing in your original comments would lead one to believe that you know they are not a ground-up developer at all.

Instead of trying to get the last word in every time, sometimes just yield, as in "Thanks for the info, Sam. I didn't realize that, but now I know better."

Just try it out once - you never know, you might like the way it feels.....

Except for where I said they were "the largest condo converter in the last boom", are you illiterate or just a troll? I never once said they did new construction but very explicitly described them as the largest condo converter out there. You do the math.

^ I had a feeling it wouldn't take. This new outlook and attitude adjustment are going to take some time and hard work on your part. (it's legal to be a massive condo converter and developer at the same time). Saying that they are a huge condo converter and saying that they have zero ground-up development experience are not the same thing, Copernicus.

Here, let's try again: "thank you for enlightening me, Sam. The next time, I'll think before I type, and thus lessen my chances of spitting-up silly, incoherent bullshit. I appreciate your input."

Take two.

(Saturday detention if you not only rebut, but work Tsipiras into it)

Get a room, funboys.

so this is not going to be a thing right? not like anyone is suprised

This is a thing, the developer will try to build it. Maybe not the most experienced, or best option but still. Hoteliers are signed, so now we wait. This is a thing.

By the way, the 'Dream Tower' is as the name says, just a Dream... I spoke with the alderman and he says it's not happening. He says that law firms in adjacent office buildings were complaining to their landlord about views of their boardrooms being blocked. I said to him, "so for once then it wasn't you". He chuckled at my comment and said no, this time it wasn't him.

What was the dream tower?

^ I assume he means the Conservatory Tower, rumored to be resurrected as a Dream Hotel.

http://dea.aiachicago.org/2010/image...ryExterior.jpg

not a big surprise. most of us thought the resurrection of this tower was solidly in pipe dream territory to begin with.

it looks like we brought this thread back from the dead for no reason. i'll leave it here for a little while to let people get the news, then move it back to the dead projects forum.

sentinel, we should probably get this one removed from the page 1 list of the boom rundown thread too.

^^On it, thanks - yeah, it's really too bad about this one :(