Wow, Madrid and Barcelona had crazy growth before the economic collapse. I had no idea it was that big an increase.

With their low birthrates, Spain must have been taking in an amazingly huge number of immigrants in a short time period.

At the 1991 census, there were only 845,977 foreign-born people living in Spain. At the 2001 census, the number of foreign-born people had already reached 2,172,201, and by the 2011 census there were 6,307,277 foreign-born people living in Spain.

Meanwhile, the Spanish-born population of Spain, which was 38,026,291 at the 1991 census, rose to 38,675,170 people at the 2001 census, and 40,508,639 people at the 2011 census. Note that the Spanish-born population includes the children of immigrants born on Spanish soil, so it's quite likely that the Spanish-born population born of Spanish parents remained stagnant between 1991 and 2011.

In terms of percentages, 2.2% of the population of Spain were foreign-born in 1991, a figure which rose to 5.3% in 2001, and 13.5% in 2011.

The number of foreign-born people in Spain is now decreasing due to the crisis. The Spanish statistical office estimates that on Jan. 1, 2013, there were 6,157,730 foreign-born people living in Spain, down from 6,307,277 at the Nov. 1, 2011 census. The number of Spanish-born people has gone from 40,508,639 people at the Nov. 1, 2011 census to 40,546,584 on Jan. 1, 2013. The percentage of foreign-born people went from 13.5% at the Nov. 1, 2011 census to 13.2% on Jan. 1, 2013.

A comparison of foreign-born people in Spain and Metropolitan France since the beginning of the 1980s. Metropolitan France is the European part of France. I include the people born in Overseas France and living in Metropolitan France as "foreign-born".

Metropolitan France:
- 1981 census: 6,028,948 people born outside of Metropolitan France (11.1% of Metropolitan France's population)
- 1990 census: 6,224,160 (11.0% of Metropolitan France's population)
- 1999 census: 6,221,404 (10.6% of Metropolitan France's population)
- 2009 census: 7,485,807 (12.0% of Metropolitan France's population)

Spain:
- 1981 census: 647,856 people born outside of Spain (1.7% of Spain's population)
- 1991 census: 845,977 (2.2% of Spain's population)
- 2001 census: 2,172,201 (5.3% of Spain's population)
- 2011 census: 6,307,277 (13.5% of Spain's population)

France foreign and overseas born population was pretty much stagnant during those three last decades with even a decrease in the 1990's due to the death of old immigrants, a low migration rate and an undercount in the 1999 census.
We had a moderate growth in the 2000's but it is lower than the growth that Spain, Italy or UK have seen.

We are not in the case of Spain or Italy which went from very few immigrants to a big immigrant population.

Spain (foreign born top 30) 2011

1 Marruecos (Morocco): 772,126
2 Rumanía (Romania): 750,901
3 Ecuador: 474,075
4 Colombia: 374,642
5 Reino Unido (UK): 317,950
6 Argentina: 272,198
7 Alemania (Germany): 209,982
8 Francia: 209,144
9 Perú: 198,547
10 Bolivia: 190,997
11 China: 164,368
12 Venezuela: 155,153
13 República Dominicana: 146,613
14 Bulgaria: 144,571
15 Portugal: 128,639
16 Brasil: 120,436
17 Cuba: 116,852
18 Italia: 93,961
19 Ucrania (Ukraine): 81,304
20 Uruguay: 80,571
21 Paraguay: 79,850
22 Polonia (Poland): 71,524
23 Pakistán: 68,279
24 Rusia (Russia): 66,478
25 Suiza (Switzerland): 63,191
26 Chile: 62,626
27 Argelia (Algeria): 59,201
28 Senegal: 55,748
29 México: 47,609
30 Países Bajos (Netherlands): 47,004

Italy (foreign citizenship) 2011

1 Romania: 968,576
2 Albania: 482,627
3 Morocco: 452,424
4 China: 209,934
5 Ukraine: 200,730
6 Philippines: 134,154
7 Moldova: 130,948
8 India: 121,036
9 Poland: 109,018
10 Tunisia: 106,291
11 Peru: 98,603
12 Ecuador: 91,625
13 Egypt: 90,365
14 Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, the: 89,900
15 Bangladesh: 82,451
16 Sri Lanka: 81,094
17 Senegal: 80,989
18 Pakistan: 75,720
19 Nigeria: 53,613
20 Serbia: 52,954
21 Bulgaria: 51,134
22 Ghana: 46,890
23 Brazil: 46,690
24 Germany: 42,531
25 France: 33,400
26 Bosnia and Herzegovina: 31,972
27 Russia: 30,504
28 United Kingdom: 29,560
29 Algeria: 25,935
30 Dominican Republic: 24,529

France (France métropolitaine) 2009
1 Algeria: 721,274
2 Morocco: 663,502
3 Portugal: 584,334
4 Italy: 310,709
5 Spain: 251,870
6 Turkey: 242,229
7 Tunisia: 236,242
8 United Kingdom: 151,052
9 Germany: 126,429
10 Belgium: 107,761
11 Poland: 92,012
12 China: 82,935
13 Senegal: 77,973
14 Vietnam: 74,704
15 Serbia: 68,002
16 Côte d'Ivoire: 62,041
17 Cameroon: 61,676
18 Mali: 60,043
19 Romania: 59,567
20 Congo, Democratic Repbulic of (Zaïre): 55,607
21 Switzerland: 54,687
22 Congo: 54,293
23 Cambodia: 52,522
24 Russia: 45,660
25 Madagascar: 45,085
26 Haïti: 37,517
27 Sri Lanka: 36,540
28 Netherlands: 36,053
29 United States of America: 35,813
30 Lebanon: 35,711

Germany 2010

1 Turkey: 1,629,480
2 Italy: 517,546
3 Poland: 419,435
4 Greece: 276,685
5 Croatia: 220,199
6 Russian Federation: 191,270
7 Serbia ¹ (with or without Kosovo): 179,048
8 Austria: 175,244
9 Bosnia and Herzegovina: 152,444
10 Netherlands: 136,274
11 Romania: 126,536
12 Ukraine: 124,293
13 Portugal: 113,208
14 Kosovo ¹: 108,797
15 France: 108,675
16 Spain: 105,401
17 United States of America: 97,732
18 United Kingdom: 96,143
19 Former Serbia and Montenegro ¹: 93,013
20 Vietnam: 84,301
21 China: 81,331
22 Iraq: 81,272
23 Bulgaria: 74,869
24 Hungary: 68,892
25 Macedonia: 65,998
26 Morocco: 63,570
27 Thailand: 56,153
28 Iran: 51,885
29 Afghanistan: 51,305
30 Kazakhstan: 51,007

Netherlands (foreign background) 2012
1 Turkey: 197,107
2 Suriname: 183,752
3 Morocco: 168,214
4 Indonesia: 114,558
5 Germany: 108,290
6 Netherlands Antilles (old): 79,673
7 Poland: 77,642
8 Yugoslavia (old): 50,559
9 United Kingdom: 43,918
10 China: 41,533
11 Iraq: 40,710
12 Belgium: 38,876
13 Soviet Union (old): 37,126
14 Afghanistan: 32,579
15 Iran: 27,012
16 Somalia: 24,638
17 United States of America: 21,042
18 Italy: 20,750
19 France: 20,071
20 Spain: 19,957
21 Bulgaria: 17,464
22 India: 16,500
23 Portugal: 14,868
24 Ghana: 13,550
25 Romania: 12,989
26 Vietnam: 12,247
27 Thailand: 12,188
28 Egypt: 12,031
29 Brazil: 11,929
30 Cape Verde: 11,754

Sweden 2011
1 Finland: 166,723
2 Iraq: 125,499
3 Poland: 72,865
4 Yugoslavia, Federal Republic of: 70,050
5 Iran (Islamic Republic of): 63,828
6 Bosnia and Herzegovina: 56,290
7 Germany: 48,442
8 Denmark: 44,951
9 Turkey: 43,909
10 Norway: 43,058
11 Somalia: 40,165
12 Thailand: 33,613
13 Chile: 28,385
14 China (excluding Hong Kong): 25,657
15 Lebanon: 24,394
16 Syrian Arab Republic: 22,357
17 United Kingdom: 21,883
18 Romania: 21,016
19 India: 18,622
20 United States of America: 17,755
21 Afghanistan: 17,489
22 Russian Federation: 16,412
23 Hungary: 15,441
24 Viet Nam: 15,175
25 Ethiopia: 14,314
26 Greece: 12,062
27 Eritrea: 11,994
28 Colombia: 10,823
29 Pakistan: 10,539
30 Korea, Republic of Korea: 10,499

Switzerland 2011
1 Germany: 329,971
2 Italy: 241,022
3 Portugal: 187,409
4 France: 138,411
5 Turkey: 76,906
6 Kosovo: 59,473
7 Austria: 59,249
8 Serbia: 59,189
9 Spain: 57,229
10 Macedonia: 53,527
11 Bosnia and Herzegovina: 52,379
12 UK: 43,747
13 United States: 34,906
14 Brazil: 33,382
15 Sri Lanka: 29,649
16 Poland: 24,033
17 Netherlands: 22,058
18 Croatia: 19,814
19 Thailand: 18,197
20 Russia: 17,509
21 India: 17,370
22 Hungary: 15,950
23 Morocco: 15,926
24 China: 15,392
25 Belgium: 14,787
26 Romania: 13,518
27 Czech Republic: 12,957
28 Philippines: 12,214
29 Slovakia: 11,353
30 Canada: 11,261

England & Wales 2011
1 India: 694,148
2 Poland: 579,121
3 Pakistan: 482,137
4 Germany: 273,564
5 Bangladesh: 211,500
6 Nigeria: 191,183
7 South Africa: 191,023
8 United States: 177,185
9 Jamaica: 160,095
10 China: 152,498
11 Kenya: 137,492
12 Italy: 134,619
13 France: 129,804
14 Sri Lanka: 127,242
15 Philippines: 122,625
16 Zimbabwe: 118,348
17 Australia: 116,287
18 Hong Kong (Special Administrative Region of China): 102,241
19 Somalia: 101,370
20 Lithuania: 97,083
21 Ghana: 93,846
22 Turkey: 91,115
23 Portugal (including Madeira and the Azores): 88,161
24 Iran: 81,680
25 Romania: 79,687
26 Spain (including Canary Islands): 79,184
27 Iraq: 72,974
28 Canada: 68,631
29 Malaysia: 64,513
30 Afghanistan: 62,723

Source (Germany): Statistisches Bundesamt, Wiesbaden
Source: (France): National Institute for Demographic Studies (INED)
Source (Italy): Istat
Source: Statistics Netherlands, 2012
Source: Statistics Sweden
Source: Swiss Federal Statistical Office
Source (England & Wales): Office for National Statistics
Source (Spain): Instituto Nacional de Estadística

This is incorrect.

It's not foreign background in any case because there were:

378,000 people of Indonesian
377,000 people of German
393,000 people of Turkish
363,000 people of Moroccan
347,000 people of Surinamese
144,000 people of Antillean
115,000 people of Belgian
101,000 people of Polish (officially at least)

background in January 2012 in the NL. The rest are also way too low.

http://www.cbs.nl/NR/rdonlyres/A1B76...2012b61pub.pdf



If you show me where you got those figures (link) perhaps I can figure out what they represent. :) It's probably foreign born.

^I should have specified because it was for first generation & my source is Statistics Netherlands.

Netherlands 2013 first generation)

1 Turkey: 196203
2 Suriname: 182342
3 Morocco: 168117
4 Indonesia: 112058
5 Germany: 107384
6 Poland: 85928
7 Netherlands Antilles (old): 79122
8 Yugoslavia (old): 50267
9 United Kingdom: 44171
10 China: 43487
11 Iraq: 40509
12 Belgium: 39750
13 Soviet Union (old): 38167
14 Afghanistan: 32820
15 Iran: 27754
16 Somalia: 24597
17 Italy: 21652
18 United States of America: 21565
19 Spain: 21230
20 France: 20124
21 Bulgaria: 18139
22 India: 17640
23 Portugal: 15486
24 Ghana: 13626
25 Romania: 13547
26 Thailand: 12538
27 Brazil: 12361
28 Vietnam: 12335
29 Egypt: 12209
30 Greece: 12084

It's foreign born.

Here's a table with both foreign background 21.1% (meaning one or both parent born outside the Netherlands) and foreign born 10.7% (excluding born abroad from two Dutch parents).

First column is foreign background, second is foreign born. Most countries should be easy to figure out, if translation is needed, let me know...

January 1st 2013
http://statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/publi...STB=G1,G4&VW=T



EDIT- :) You're good at figuring it out yourself and also found 2013 I see! :tup:

@ Urbanguy: you forgot the people from Overseas France living in Metropolitan France. For example you included 79,122 people from the Netherlands Antilles living in the Netherlands, but you didn't include the 236,197 people from the French West Indies living in Metropolitan France. Your figures also include only immigrants but exclude foreign-born people who are not immigrants (Pieds-Noirs and many other French citizens born in the former French colonies, protectorates, and other countries).

So if I include all these people, we get this:

France (France métropolitaine) 2009:
1 Pieds-Noirs and other French citizens at birth born in former colonies, protectorates, and foreign countries: 1,744,378 (Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, Marguerite Duras, Yves Saint Laurent, Edouard Balladur, Ségolène Royal, Dominique de Villepin, etc.)
2 Algeria: 721,274
3 Morocco: 663,502
4 Portugal: 584,334
5 Italy: 310,709
6 Spain: 251,870
7 Turkey: 242,229
8 Tunisia: 236,242
9 United Kingdom: 151,052
10 Germany: 126,429
11 Martinique: 118,551
12 Guadeloupe: 117,646
13 La Réunion: 109,927
14 Belgium: 107,761
15 Poland: 92,012
16 China: 82,935
17 Senegal: 77,973
18 Vietnam: 74,704
19 Serbia: 68,002
20 Côte d'Ivoire: 62,041
21 Cameroon: 61,676
22 Mali: 60,043
23 Romania: 59,567
24 Congo, Democratic Repbulic of (Zaïre): 55,607
25 Switzerland: 54,687
26 Congo: 54,293
27 Cambodia: 52,522
28 Russia: 45,660
29 Madagascar: 45,085
30 Haïti: 37,517
31 Sri Lanka: 36,540
32 Netherlands: 36,053
33 United States of America: 35,813
34 Lebanon: 35,711

@ Shiro, thanks!

@ New Brisavoine, that's because the Netherlands Statistics included Netherlands Antilles but where I found the statistics for France I didn't see any figures for people from overseas France - something I have been wondering about though. Where did you find the figures that include Martinique, Guadeloupe & La Reunion? Do you know what the numbers are for places like French Guiana, French Polynesia, etc?

The numbers are... hard to find. :D

You basically need to download a database called Données harmonisées des recensements de la population 1968-2009, then download and install a software called Beyond 20/20, then spend about an hour trying to understand how Beyond 20/20 works, then tadam, a trove of multidimensional data (I can even tell you how many people from French Guiana who had a university degree lived in Burgundy in 1990 if you wish, and all sorts of crazy other multi-dimensional things :cool:).

To answer your questions, in 2009 there were 25,425 people born in French Guiana who lived in Metropolitan France (48.2% in the Paris Region, and 51.8% in the French provinces). At the same census, there were 26,492 people born in the French Pacific territories who lived in Metropolitan France (the database does not distinguish between New Caledonia, French Polynesia, and Wallis and Futuna). 18.5% of these natives of the French Pacific lived in the Paris Region, 14.9% lived in Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur (especially in Var and Bouches-du-Rhône), and 66.6% in the other French provinces.

People born in Mayotte, St Martin, St Barth, and St Pierre and Miquelon (a category grouped together) numbered 16,865 in Metropolitan France in 2009.

Oh, and if you wonder, at the 1990 census there were 20 natives of French Guiana holding a university degree who lived in Burgundy. A number which rose to 46 at the 2009 census. :P

Doh! I've been careful about that before.:cheers:

Here are some interesting data for an idea of cross-exchanges between Metropolitan France and Overseas France. All figures are from the Jan. 2009 census, except otherwise indicated. "Natives" means "born in".

Réunion:
- 109,928 natives of Réunion live in Metropolitan France
- 84,477 natives of Metropolitan France live in Réunion

Guadeloupe:
- 117,645 natives of Guadeloupe live in Metropolitan France
- 42,465 natives of Metropolitan France live in Guadeloupe

Martinique:
- 118,551 natives of Martinique live in Metropolitan France
- 39,660 natives of Metropolitan France live in Martinique

French Guiana:
- 25,427 natives of French Guiana live in Metropolitan France
- 20,887 natives of Metropolitan France live in French Guiana

French Pacific:
- 26,490 natives of the French Pacific territories live in Metropolitan France
- 35,885 natives of Metropolitan France live in New Caledonia (as of Aug. 2009)
- 24,265 natives of Metropolitan France live in French Polynesia (as of Aug. 2007)
- 809 natives of Metropolitan France live in Wallis and Futuna (as of July 2008)

Mayotte, St Martin, St Barth, St Pierre and Miquelon:
- 16,865 natives of Mayotte, St Martin, St Barth, St Pierre and Miquelon live in Metropolitan France
- 8,875 natives of Metropolitan France live in Mayotte (as of Aug. 2007)
- 5,490 natives of Metropolitan France live in St Martin (as of March 1999)
- 2,864 natives of Metropolitan France live in St Barth (as of March 1999)
- 1,017 natives of Metropolitan France live in St Pierre and Miquelon (as of March 1999)

In total, 414,906 natives of Overseas France lived in Metropolitan France in 2009, whereas approx. 270,000 natives of Metropolitan France lived in Overseas France.

The natives of Metropolitan France made up 20.2% of the population in the Nouméa urban area in Aug. 2009, and 12.8% of the population in the Papeete urban area in Aug. 2007. We don't have figures at the municipal level for the overseas departments unfortunately (in Réunion the Metropolitan Frenchmen tend to cluster in St Denis, the administrative capital, and around St Gilles where the main beaches of Réunion are located, but we have no data).

Are you saying that paris only grew by 60,000 in four years, that's surprising, Londons population is going up by over 100,000 a year, I thought paris would be similar

^^That's the population growth in the City of Paris, which is only the most central area in the Paris metro area. The City of Paris is only one and a half time the size of Manhattan. What's called "London", on the other hand, is a big metropolitan region in fact officially called "Greater London" which contains not only Central London (comparable in size to the City of Paris) but also the inner and outer suburbs of London.

Ok, that's cool, I thought it was strange as I had recently read an article about paris and londons population boom, it looks like soon uk and France will pass Germany by

The French statistical office has published the detailed results of the 2010 French census by countries and territories of birth. Here are the results for the Paris Region (Île-de-France).

In Jan. 2010, 23.0% of the people living in the Paris Region were born outside of Metropolitan France (the European part of France), up from 22.8% in Jan. 2009.

Here below are the immigrant and overseas communities in the Paris Region that grew and shrunk the most in 2009. We can calculate this based on the data just released. Next year we'll be able to calculate the population growth of the immigrants in 2010. In Nov. 2015, we'll be able to calculate the population growth of the immigrants in 2011. It's nearly 4 years late each time (due to the new French census method), but at least it's updated every year (unlike decennial censuses which are updated only every 10 years).

Immigrant and overseas communities in Metropolitan France can only grow due to new arrivals from abroad (children of immigrants born on French soil are not immigrants). They can shrink either due to deaths in France (ancient immigrant communities) or departures from Metropolitan France.

For the relative growth, note that only the 47 largest immigrant and overseas communities are included (so if the Nepalese grew from 200 to 300 in 2009, their +50% growth won't be shown here).

Absolute growth in 2009, immigrant and overseas communities in the Paris Region:
- from Romania: +3,178 people (essentially Roma Gypsies)
- China: +2,904
- Algeria: +2,839
- Congo-Kinshasa: +2,138
- Tunisia: +2,015
- Côte d'Ivoire: +1,625
- Sri Lanka: +1,424
- Turkey: +1,239
- Cameroon: +1,099
- Morocco: +966
- Mali: +929
- Haiti: +913
- Guadeloupe: +906
- India: +902
- Russia: +878
...
...
...
- Mauritius: -139
- Belgium: -169
- Switzerland: -270
- Serbia: -289
- Lebanon: -311
- Vietnam: -432
- Germany: -868
- Portugal: -935
- Italy: -999
- Spain: -1,008

Relative growth in 2009, immigrant and overseas communities in the Paris Region:
- from Romania: +11.2%
- Russia: +6.4%
- Brazil: +6.1%
- Congo-Kinshasa: +5.7%
- China: +5.2%
- Comoros: +4.9%
- Sri Lanka: +4.5%
- Canada: +4.4%
- India: +4.1%
- Mauritania: +3.9%
- Côte d'Ivoire: +3.8%
- French Pacific territories: +3.5%
- Cameroon: +3.2%
- French Guiana: +3.0%
- Haiti: +3.0%
...
...
ALL IMMIGRANT & OVERSEAS COMMUNITIES: +1.24%
...
...
ALL RESIDENTS OF PARIS REGION: +0.51%
...
...
NATIVES OF METROPOLITAN FRANCE: +0.29%
...
...
- Mauritius: -0.7%
- Angola: -1.0%
- Serbia: -1.0%
- Belgium: -1.1%
- Vietnam: -1.2%
- Lebanon: -1.5%
- Italy: -1.8%
- Spain: -2.1%
- Germany: -3.5%
- Switzerland: -4.4%

At the current rate, the immigrants from Congo-Kinshasa should become the largest sub-Saharan immigrant community in the Paris Region by 2019 (historically this has been the Malians).

Geez, are there any Romanians left in Romania?

I go to Italy, and it seems every other person is Romanian. Austria seems not that different.

Even in the U.S., there seems to be many Romanian migrants.

A few data comparing the overseas communities in Paris and London. Number of immigrants and overseas people in the Paris metro area (the Paris Region here), and number of foreign born people in the London metro area (London LUZ, which is Greater London + 42 districts around it).

London figures are from the 2011 census (March 2011). For Paris, I have used the Jan. 2010 census as the base, and applied the 2009 growth rate to get the figures as of March 2011, for a better comparison with London.

Note that the London figures are "foreign-born", i.e. they include children of British people born abroad (for example children of British soldiers born in Germany, British people from Zimbabwe and South Africa, children of British expats born abroad like in Hong Kong), whereas French figures include only the immigrants, so the British figures here are always statistically swollen compared to the French figures (for example children of British expats born in France and now living in London are included in the 77,209 figure below, whereas children of French expats born in the UK and now living in Paris are not included in the 19,649 figure).

People from each other's country:
- London metro area: 77,209 people born in France live there
- Paris metro area: 19,649 British immigrants and expats live there

People from Italy:
- London metro area: 75,320 people born in Italy live there
- Paris metro area: 54,640 Italian immigrants live there (for an example of the statistical bias that I've indicated, ca. 4,000 non-immigrant people born in Italy live in the Paris Region, but they are not included here)

People from Portugal:
- London metro area: 48,175
- Paris metro area: 240,765

People from Spain:
- London metro area: 43,150
- Paris metro area: 45,549

People from Poland:
- London metro area: 201,900
- Paris metro area: 40,078

People from Romania:
- London metro area: 51,220
- Paris metro area: 35,941

People from Turkey:
- London metro area: 65,092
- Paris metro area: 69,756

People from North Africa (incl. Egypt):
- London metro area: 60,386
- Paris metro area: 633,571

People from sub-Saharan Africa:
- London metro area: 678,070
- Paris metro area: 438,418

People from sub-Saharan Africa (excluding South Africa, Zimbabwe/Rhodesia, and Réunion):
- London metro area: 553,639
- Paris metro area: 406,952 (the ca. 45,000 French people born in sub-Saharan Africa, like Ségolène Royal and all the children of colonial administrators and settlers, are NOT included here, as explained in the introduction, whereas this category of people is included in the British figure, White settlers from Kenya for example)

People from mainland China:
- London metro area: 48,093
- Paris metro area: 62,128

People from Hong Kong:
- London metro area: 36,379
- Paris metro area: a few hundred

People from South East Asia (excluding the Philippines):
- London metro area: 88,366
- Paris metro area: 115,421

People from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka:
- London metro area: 676,313
- Paris metro area: 75,284

People from the USA:
- London metro area: 80,582 (this figure includes British people born in the USA, as explained in the introduction)
- Paris metro area: 18,252 (this figure does NOT include French people born in the USA)

People from the Caribbean:
- London metro area: 155,914
- Paris metro area: 193,226

People from continental Latin America (including the Guianas and Belize):
- London metro area: 107,531
- Paris metro area: 68,010

People from Oceania:
- London metro area: 101,997
- Paris metro area: 7,574

I'm adding the Madrid metro area (provinces of Madrid, Toledo, and Guadalajara) and the Barcelona metro area (province of Barcelona). Figures from the 2011 Spanish census.

Note that the Madrid and Barcelona figures refer to foreign-born people, like the London figures. Only the Paris figures refer strictly to immigrants (and overseas people), and therefore exclude French people born abroad as explained in the previous post.

People from each other's country:
- London metro area: 77,209 people born in France and 43,150 people born in Spain live there
- Paris metro area: 19,649 British immigrants and 45,549 Spanish immigrants live there
- Madrid metro area: 27,620 people born in France and 12,240 people born in the UK live there
- Barcelona metro area: 30,004 people born in France and 11,571 people born in the UK live there

People from Italy:
- London metro area: 75,320 people born in Italy live there
- Paris metro area: 54,640 Italian immigrants live there (for an example of the statistical bias that I've indicated, ca. 4,000 non-immigrant people born in Italy live in the Paris Region, but they are not included here)
- Madrid metro area: 12,263 people born in Italy live there
- Barcelona metro area: 19,859 people born in Italy live there

People from Portugal:
- London metro area: 48,175
- Paris metro area: 240,765
- Madrid metro area: 16,056
- Barcelona metro area: 8,263

People from Poland:
- London metro area: 201,900
- Paris metro area: 40,078
- Madrid metro area: 22,636
- Barcelona metro area: 7,399

People from Romania:
- London metro area: 51,220
- Paris metro area: 35,941
- Madrid metro area: 225,247
- Barcelona metro area: 33,075

People from Turkey:
- London metro area: 65,092
- Paris metro area: 69,756
- Madrid metro area: 807
- Barcelona metro area: 980

People from North Africa (incl. Egypt):
- London metro area: 60,386
- Paris metro area: 633,571
- Madrid metro area: 112,687
- Barcelona metro area: 136,900

People from sub-Saharan Africa:
- London metro area: 678,070
- Paris metro area: 438,418
- Madrid metro area: 37,227
- Barcelona metro area: 36,916

People from sub-Saharan Africa (excluding South Africa, Zimbabwe/Rhodesia, and Réunion):
- London metro area: 553,639
- Paris metro area: 406,952 (the ca. 45,000 French people born in sub-Saharan Africa, like Ségolène Royal and all the children of colonial administrators and settlers, are NOT included here, as explained in the introduction, whereas this category of people is included in the British figure, White settlers from Kenya for example)
- Madrid metro area: 36,751
- Barcelona metro area: 36,516

People from mainland China:
- London metro area: 48,093
- Paris metro area: 62,128
- Madrid metro area: 43,301
- Barcelona metro area: 37,071

People from Hong Kong:
- London metro area: 36,379
- Paris metro area: a few hundred
- Madrid metro area: a few hundred
- Barcelona metro area: a few hundred

People from South East Asia (excluding the Philippines):
- London metro area: 88,366
- Paris metro area: 115,421
- Madrid metro area: 1,209
- Barcelona metro area: 892

People from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka:
- London metro area: 676,313
- Paris metro area: 75,284
- Madrid metro area: 11,244
- Barcelona metro area: 51,350

People from the USA:
- London metro area: 80,582 (this figure includes British people born in the USA, as explained in the introduction)
- Paris metro area: 18,252 (this figure does NOT include French people born in the USA)
- Madrid metro area: 11,572
- Barcelona metro area: 6,919

People from the Caribbean (including Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Dominican Republic):
- London metro area: 155,914
- Paris metro area: 193,226
- Madrid metro area: 82,835
- Barcelona metro area: 41,162

People from continental Latin America (including the Guianas and Belize):
- London metro area: 107,531
- Paris metro area: 68,010
- Madrid metro area: 563,648
- Barcelona metro area: 375,781

People from Oceania:
- London metro area: 101,997
- Paris metro area: 7,574
- Madrid metro area: 1,566
- Barcelona metro area: 985

It's funny how most of these figures match the old empires of UK, France and Spain, obviously the British empire was much bigger thoe

:cheers:You can't blame them for wanting a better life, wouldn't we all do the same

There are some discrepancies though. For example the former Spanish colonies in the Caribbean are more populated than the former French and British colonies in that region, yet Paris and London have far more Caribbean immigrants than either Madrid or Barcelona.

Egypt (formerly British) is as populated as the Maghreb (formerly French), yet there are 10 times more North African immigrants in Paris than in London, and according to the data I have, even the Egyptians are slightly more numerous in Paris than in London.

Portugal is also an odd case. There are 15 times more Portuguese immigrants in far-flung Paris than in nearby Madrid, despite the geographical and linguistic proximity between Madrid and Portugal.

Despite François Hollande and his pathetic Socialist government...

Well the Spanish-speaking Carribean immigrants are mostly not in Europe.

Cubans, Dominicans and Puerto Ricans tend to be in the NYC area or Florida. I don't think they have a large presence anywhere in Europe.

^Spain and Italy more than any where else in Europe. There are well over 100,000 (each) DR & Cuba-born in Spain alone.

Ok, but debatable whether this is a "large" presence. Spain has definitely received extensive Latin immigration in the last decade. But there are a couple million PR, DR and Cuban in the NYC and Miami areas alone.

For NYC area, 2.2 million, roughly, for Miami maybe 1.1-1.2 million. Orlando, Tampa, Philadelphia, Boston, and Chicago have sizable populations too.

In Spain at the 2011 census there were 116,852 Cuban-born and 146,613 Dominican-born people.

In Metropolitan France (the European part of France) at the 2010 census there were 3,787 Cuban immigrants and 1,295 Dominican immigrants. In Overseas France there were 292 Cuban immigrants and 1,617 Dominican immigrants at the same census. So in total, 4,079 Cuban immigrants and 2,912 Dominican immigrants in France.

In England and Wales at the 2011 census there were 2,355 Cuban-born and 1,303 Dominican-born people.

Number of births in Germany, France, the UK, and Italy from 1957 to 2012. 2012 figures are now final figures.

http://i43.tinypic.com/nxp1tt.png

Italy has had less than 700,000 births per year since 1979. Germany has had less than 700,000 births per year since 2005. The UK had less than 700,000 births per year from 1975 to 1978, and again from 1999 to 2003. France had less than 700,000 births per year in peacetime only during the Great Depression of the 1930s.

This graph is interesting, it shows that britains population has been growing much faster than France for a long time, And germanies and italys popularions have been going down fast, i wonder what the reason is for that

No, their birth rates have been going down fast, not their populations.

Immigration has (generally speaking) made up for the low birthrates, though this may not be enough going forward.

As to the "why" there are important cultural differences.

In Germany there is still the stereotype of "Rabenmutter" which basically means that some people stigmatize mothers who work (some believe you choose either motherhood or working world, not both, because you can't do both 100%).

Also, primary school ends much earlier in the day in Germany than in other countries, so there needs to be child care provisions.

More german women choose to remain childfree. 22 % now (in Hamburg this is 32 %, a world record)

Der Anteil der Frauen ohne Kinder steigt. Von den Frauen, die heute 40 bis 44 Jahre alt sind, sind 22 Prozent kinderlos. Vor vier Jahren waren es noch 20 Prozent.

Héhéhéhéhéhé... The Germans will eventually end up speaking French, as a punishment for their ridiculous sexist behavior. http://webnemo.free.fr/72.gif

More likely they will teach millions of ''francophone'' african immigrants to speak german.

Germany has jobs and needs immigrants desperately.

In France it's only 13.5% according to INSEE.

In UK , Denmark and Holland one observes a tendency of higher educated women having more children than others.
Kids are serving as status symbol.

The results of the 2011 French census were published yesterday (France now has a census taking place every year, in January). The population of France in Jan. 2011 was slightly lower than previously estimated, because net migration in 2010 was smaller than what the French statistical office INSEE had previously guesstimated. Net migration was only +46,908 in 2010, whereas INSEE previously guesstimated that it had been +62,000.

France thus continues to have extremely small migration figures compared to its neighbours.

Net migration in Metropolitan France (the European part of France):
- 2007: +74,659
- 2008: +66,930
- 2009: +44,222
- 2010: +46,908

For comparison, Germany had a net migration of +127,677 in 2010, the UK had +252,000, Italy had +311,658, and even economically battered Spain had +76,026.

This very low net migration figure is either due to rising emigration of young French people tired of the rigid labor market of France, or to very restrictive immigration policies (and strong anti-immigrant climate which deters would-be immigrants), or a combination of both, but it's impossible to tell exactly because France is the only large country in Europe which doesn't produce estimates of inflows and outflows of migrants and native people.

Oddly, most French people are still convinced that France is submerged by a huge waves of immigrants and receives the most immigrants in Europe (:haha:). The declining net migration is not discussed by any media, and most people are unaware of it.

It's happening all over Europe now, anti immigrant media and policies, it hasn't reduced immigration to Britain yet but surely will soon

Italy had 312,000 immigrants? Holy crap!

Why did Italy receive so many? Economy is weak and probably one of the less welcoming EU states for newcomers.

It's because Italy is the nearest European country a lot of immigrants get to, the eu rules are that immigrants have to apply for residence or asylum in the first eu country they get to, most of them just travel straight through Italy añd Greece to get to Northern Europe, which is where they àll want to be, but many are made to stay in Italy and greece

Not true.

And not true.

Basically the both of you are consistently talking out of your ass almost every post you make...

A comparison of Greater London and a territory of the same land area in Paris, based on the results of the 2011 French and British censuses.

http://i40.tinypic.com/2s01fg8.png

Evolution of the population since 1811:

http://i44.tinypic.com/90d944.png

You really think Italy (or Greece) is as welcoming or tolerant to an African/Middle Eastern immigrant as Scandinavia, The Netherlands, the UK (barring the UKIP/Eastern Euro stuff, I'd say that it is generally much easier for an immigrant to integrate, succeed, and be accepted in the UK, if only for the fact that well-established immigrant support networks and communities are already in place) etc., are? And that is to make no mention of the generally vastly superior welfare/unemployment/state assistance schemes and more robust job markets in those places.

In terms of acceptance, Italy is definitely less accepting than Northern Europe, and many immigrants would openly tell you this. Look at all the shit their first black minister is getting (fellow ministers calling her an "orangutan," for example), all the crap towards Mario Balotelli, bananas regularly thrown at black footballers, etc. I am a person of color, and I certainly feel more comfortable in the UK or Norway or Sweden than Italy, or much less Greece.

Pff, dude, you're being enraged once more, huh? And you're just being ignorant of southern Europe's history. You need to be reminded (of course you actually know and forget), back to the sorry middle ages, most of Spain as well as some regions of southern Italy and southern France were invaded and downright dominated by the Arab lords. I'm not saying it was a complete curse since back then, as everyone here should know, the Muslim world was slightly more advanced and enlightened than the darker European obscurantism of that terrible period, thanks to their massive conquests and the achievements of the civilizations they had enslaved. The Arab lords are even said to be partly responsible for the European renaissance (that started precisely from Italy, you remember?), from reintroducing the ancient Greek work to the Euro regions they had conquered. Still, they Arabs weren't exactly what you'd call enlightened today. They were pretty quick to treat you as a slave, if not an animal. Their so-called doctors even used to say the Africans were closer to animals than the Europeans, for easier to bring down to slavery. They were ugly barbarians that left southern Europe with much grudge and issues.

You're nothing like a "person of color", you're just an American, spoiled like an annoying French.

mhm, I've never actually lived out there, but I've got a feeling that what's bolded is essential, indeed.

Mousquet, I don't understand what your message has to do with the post of Kingofthehill.
I fail to see the relationship between the Arabs invation in the Middle age and the immigration in Italy today. :???:
I think SHiRO meant that Italy was not less welcoming in term of law.
It is not more difficult to immigrate in Italy than in other European countries. It is quite the oposite by looking the numbers, especially when it is put in in relation to the economy.

Easy immigration is one of the things that may explain the high immigration in Italy despite all the other negative factors.

Well, the thing is the guy's plainly stating that southern Europe, that is Greece and Italy in that case, would be particularly backwards and racist, that is wrong. There are historic explanations to their current difficulties. That's what I said in my post. Bah come on, you know I have no particular problem with the contemporary Arabs. Qatar for instance is being pretty helpful to us Frenchies. They are great investors and they've got some cool cultural stuff. I'm just trying to explain the assumptive distrust of Italy to what doesn't look fully European. Yes, history's kind of a burden in that case. Damn, you can't leave Italy, that's our closest and historically most influential neighbor dispraised like that. That's just not fair.

^^Sinon ein Kommentar sur ma carte de Paris et Londres ?