Tucson Development Thread

[Anqrew]

Rumor has it that Councilman Kozachik has four votes lined up to kill the proposed TCC expansion and hotel:


City Council to vote on hotel Oct. 26
Inside Tucson Business blog
22 October 2010

The Tucson City Council will vote on the future of the proposed $192 million downtown convention center hotel Tuesday (Oct. 26) following a public hearing at 5:30. The council meeting that day has been moved to the Tucson Convention Center, 260 S. Church.

Both sides are beginning to rally the troops to show up. Councilman Steve Kozachik is urging people who has questions about the project or believe the numbers don’t pencil out, to show up so the room isn’t overrun with those who want the short-term jobs without considering the long term costs to the community. “The risks of negative consequences of building this Convention Center Hotel are too great,” Kozachik said in a letter he sent out. “Other communities have gone down the public subsidy path, only to find their General Fund at risk and being placed in the position of having to take on further debt to cover losses.” He continues to contend too much of the risk is on the taxpayers and the city and not on anyone else.

On the other side, an e-mail from Kurt Wadlington, an employee owner of Sundt asks for contractors to contact the city councilmembers and show up for the hearing to “remind our city council how important this project is to Tucson and our crippled construction economy,” the e-mail said. The e-mail asks for an even bigger turnout than several hundred that showed up at the Rio Nuevo meeting held June 23.

I know Walkup is all for it, and Kozachik is against the hotel plan. But, what stance do all the others have?

[kaneui]

I know Walkup is all for it, and Kozachik is against the hotel plan. But, what stance do all the others have?

I'm guessing the other "nay" votes will be Scott, Cunningham and Fimbres, although Romero and Uhlich may join them given the consistently negative press surrounding the developer's high GMP, questionable pro-forma income projections, and the potential of taxpayers having to support an expensive and underperforming hotel. (The mayor doesn't actually have a vote on council matters--unless Prop. 401 passes on Nov. 2.)

[Butta]

I'm guessing the other "nay" votes will be Scott, Cunningham and Fimbres, although Romero and Uhlich may join them given the consistently negative press surrounding the developer's high GMP, questionable pro-forma income projections, and the potential of taxpayers having to support an expensive and underperforming hotel. (The mayor doesn't actually have a vote on council matters--unless Prop. 401 passes on Nov. 2.)

This is so disappointing, they just dropped tons of money on reports and studies and now nothing will get built, they could have used that money for more infrastructure and facades, what a waste.

[Anqrew]

This is so disappointing, they just dropped tons of money on reports and studies and now nothing will get built, they could have used that money for more infrastructure and facades, what a waste.

I agree, i have a bad feeling it wont get passed the vote. But I hope I'm wrong. Can only wait now.

[somethingfast]

being a native tucsonan and deeply embarrassed of our skyline my entire life, and wanting some new, significant additions to our skyline BADLY, i think this deal sucks and hotel funding as presented is a f**king joke and bad for the taxpayer. it stinks. it smells. the usual gang of corrupt and idiotic (incredibly so) politicians are the only ones that will come out ahead on this. oh, and sheraton of course. it will die and it should.

[atbg8654]

So even if it passes, it'll just linger longer without anything getting built

[Ritarancher]

I think that companies should come together and instead of building 4 nine story buildings they should spend the extra million dollars to make the building taller.

[kaneui]

In this Arizona Illustrated interview, Councilman Steve Kozachik reiterates his opposition to the proposed $190M TCC Sheraton that would require taxpayer-backed bonds to finance, countering that he knows of three private-sector proposals to build smaller, lower price-point hotels downtown that would support the convention center:


http://ondemand.azpm.org/videoshorts/watch/2010/10/25/1523-decision-time-for-proposed-tucson-convention-center-hotel/

[atbg8654]

I think that companies should come together and instead of building 4 nine story buildings they should spend the extra million dollars to make the building taller.

What project are you referring to?

[Ritarancher]

i am weird but i think that the hotel should be built with or without my tax money. besides my tax money is just getting wasted 'talking about" the sheraton. YES ON THE SHERATON!!:fireworks

[Anqrew]

Well they killed it.

[Ritarancher]

Well they killed it.

are you serious?

[kaneui]

More than three years after Garfield Traub and Sheraton were selected as the winning RFP, and over $12M was spent by Rio Nuevo on hotel design and preconstruction expenses, Tucson's City Council voted unanimously on Tuesday not to back the construction of the proposed $190M convention center hotel. Since Rio Nuevo does not have the means to fund the hotel by itself, it would have required that bonds be issued by the city of Tucson to secure financing.

So what's next? Even if private developers are willing to build sufficient hotel rooms nearby, Rio Nuevo and the city must still figure out what to do with a small and outdated convention center that still operates at a $3M annual loss.


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/kaneui/TCCSheratonHotelrender.jpg
proposed Tucson Convention Center Sheraton Hotel
(render: DLR Group)


Pueblo Politics: Council kills Downtown hotel
By Rob O'Dell
Arizona Daily Star
October 26, 2010, 8:26 pm

The Tucson City Council just voted unanimously to kill a $190 million downtown convention hotel next to the Tucson Convention Center. The crowd cheered after the council took the groundbreaking vote. Council members said building the hotel didn’t make sense and that they weren’t willing to put the city taxpayer money at risk. Only Mayor Bob Walkup proposed something other than killing the hotel. He tried to delay killing the hotel to give the negotiation process more time, then tried to get the council to vote on a Plan B of what to do next, which it rejected.

City taxpayers have to back the bonds in order for the hotel to be constructed. About 500 people turned out for the are attending the hearing at the TCC over whether to build 525-room Sheraton hotel next to the TCC. Opponents and supporters of the hotel got about equal cheers from the crowd, although opponents may be a tad louder. About 80 percent of the speakers were against the hotel, while 20 percent supported its construction. There were about 30 speakers in all.

[Butta]

More than three years after Garfield Traub and Sheraton were selected as the winning RFP, and over $12M was spent by Rio Nuevo on hotel design and preconstruction expenses, Tucson's City Council voted unanimously on Tuesday not to back the construction of the proposed $190M convention center hotel. Since Rio Nuevo does not have the means to fund the hotel by itself, it would have required that bonds be issued by the city of Tucson to secure financing.

So what's next? Even if private developers are willing to build sufficient hotel rooms nearby, Rio Nuevo and the city must still figure out what to do with a small and outdated convention center that still operates at a $3M annual loss.


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/kaneui/TCCSheratonHotelrender.jpg
proposed Tucson Convention Center Sheraton Hotel
(render: DLR Associates)


Pueblo Politics: Council kills Downtown hotel
By Rob O'Dell
Arizona Daily Star
October 26, 2010, 8:26 pm

The Tucson City Council just voted unanimously to kill a $190 million downtown convention hotel next to the Tucson Convention Center. The crowd cheered after the council took the groundbreaking vote. Council members said building the hotel didn’t make sense and that they weren’t willing to put the city taxpayer money at risk. Only Mayor Bob Walkup proposed something other than killing the hotel. He tried to delay killing the hotel to give the negotiation process more time, then tried to get the council to vote on a Plan B of what to do next, which it rejected.

City taxpayers have to back the bonds in order for the hotel to be constructed. About 500 people turned out for the are attending the hearing at the TCC over whether to build 525-room Sheraton hotel next to the TCC. Opponents and supporters of the hotel got about equal cheers from the crowd, although opponents may be a tad louder. About 80 percent of the speakers were against the hotel, while 20 percent supported its construction. There were about 30 speakers in all.

Like I said, on my post above, what a waste. I would have rather they spent that $12M on smaller projects, not these pipe dream non sense projects that never get built. I hope they will start spending some money on smaller projects. They need to make downtown an attraction before anyone is willing to drop $150/night in a hotel room. You can start by building small parks, plazas, retail, etc. Enough of rainbow bridges, high rise hotels, tortoise arenas, sci-fi museums, etc. Have the leadership in Tucson never heard of, "One small step at a time"?

[kaneui]

In retrospect, although the Sheraton would have made a handsome addition to downtown's fledgling skyline, the experience of many other cities and the following article detail why Tucson may have made the best choice to not drink the convention center Kool-Aid:



Unconventional Thinking
Why cities shouldn’t buy into the convention center economy

By Josh Stephens
Next American City magazine
Summer, 2009

Two generations ago, city economies relied on money from the products they manufactured. Faraway customers purchased Fords, Zeniths, Maytags and Levi’s, and their cash made its way to the factory foreman and his workers, who would then spread the wealth to the local butcher and baker. In the postindustrial visitor economy, however, the city itself becomes the product, and cities must contrive reasons for people to visit. Enter the convention center.

At any given moment, the average American convention center is buzzing with accountants, motivational speakers, comic book collectors and other hordes of professionals and enthusiasts — adding up to 12,000 events a year. As the demand for spaces in which to buy, sell, make deals and exchange information has boomed, formerly modest meeting halls have ballooned into spaces that could swallow a typical Wal-Mart whole. Since 1993 American cities have invested more than $23 billion in ever-larger boxes that now number more than 320, and since 2000 the country’s total convention space increased by 25 percent to nearly 90 million square feet, which collectively eclipses the commercial space in all but two of America’s largest central business districts. Chicago’s McCormick Place alone spans 2.6 million square feet, with contiguous spaces that could hold about as many superlatives as you care to fit. The story of a single convention center would be an unremarkable tale. There is no Guggenheim Bilbao, but no Pruitt-Igoe either.

The story of convention centers is that, for all cities do to distinguish themselves, the convention industry treats cities not as places but rather as spaces — fungible, interchangeable and characterless. Even though convention centers are marketed with Platonic conceptions of cities (palm trees, skyscrapers, longhorns, slot machines), the convention economy is one of placelessness. “Most of them have removed themselves from the community they’re in by virtue of becoming developments that are about drawing people into the city, not about being integrated in the city culture and fabric,” says Fred Kent, president of the Project for Public Spaces, which advocates for attractive, energized public spaces. Even so, convention centers might seem tolerably innocuous — they don’t pollute (directly), they don’t bulldoze historic neighborhoods (usually), and they pay for themselves — except when they don’t.

Registration Fees

While the convention industry has forged ahead, Heywood Sanders, professor of political science at the University of Texas-San Antonio, has positioned himself as its leading opponent — making him more or less a convention of one. In his 2005 Brookings Institution paper “Space Available: The Realities of Convention Centers as Economic Development Strategy,” Sanders, who has testified before Congress and often giggles when he discusses the industry’s absurdities, described the breathtaking pace at which convention-center supply was outstripping demand.

Despite the steady increase in nationwide square footage, Sanders presents data indicating that attendance at many convention centers, including the mighty McCormick Place and New York’s Javits Center, declined markedly from 1996 to 2003. When demand declines in a typical capitalist system, weak companies go out of business and successful ones get leaner. Convention centers do not respond to market signals quite so rationally. With fixed footprints, they generally cannot downsize, and as wholly owned subsidiaries of urban America, they cannot outsource. Their chief solution, then, is to expand. A 420,000-square-foot expansion of Houston’s George R. Brown Center was projected to yield nearly 600,000 room-nights in 2005, but a 2006 audit found that it was generating roughly 220,000 annual room-nights. In 2003 Washington, D.C., completed an $850 million expansion; as of 2007 annual convention-related hotel bookings were roughly 25 percent below projections, and the convention center’s 2007 operating loss was estimated at $22 million. In cities from Los Angeles to Boston to Baltimore, the story is much the same. The current economic crisis is, of course, bound to make matters worse.

Nonetheless, according to industry publication Trade Show Week, 71 expansions or new projects, 81 percent of which involve public funding, were underway as of September 2008, in keeping with the 10-year average of 74 projects underway at any given moment. In his analysis of these figures, Trade Show Week’s Michael Hughes writes, “It is still a buyer’s market for convention center space, and the extra space under development will exacerbate this.” In other words, convention centers are offering lower rents and sweetheart deals in order to attract fewer tenants who rent less space.

This remarkable escalation in the number and size of facilities stems from genuine civic enthusiasm, opportunism and cities’ belief in their own exceptionalism. According to Sanders, officials hold fast to dreams of what a new building or exhibit hall can do without acknowledging that the very same ideas are brewing in the minds of civic boosters elsewhere. Those boosters almost invariably rely on the recommendations of consultants, upon whom Sanders levels much of the blame for the national oversupply. “You have a great many people with very particular interests in making these things happen: consultants, unions, developers,” says Sanders. “All of that suggests that what’s going on in the larger market doesn’t matter, because fundamentally there’s no one who will pay the price for a center not delivering what it’s supposed to.”

These consultants usually work for quasi-public convention and visitors bureaus. Part bureaucracy, part marketing firm and part real estate developer, these agencies operate with single-minded attitudes toward increasing attendance and, at regular intervals, commandeering public funds to expand and upgrade their spaces to attract major events and out-of-town visitors. Consultants often offer optimistic projections of attendance, accompanied by optimistic projections of spinoff expenditures, by way of hotel nights and meals consumed. And cities buy into it: “We are very familiar with the benefits of the industry, and we understand the rollover effect of meetings and conventions,” says Mike Carrier, president of the Oklahoma City Convention and Visitors Bureau, which is studying an expansion of its facility. “These don’t necessarily pay directly for the facilities, but the indirect benefits through increased sales taxes, the spending in local hotels, restaurants, entertainment, are very beneficial for the city.”

Ironically, though, the events that demand the most space and the highest rent — great exhibits such as boat and car shows — tend to attract locals with no need for hotels. Meanwhile, the cosmographers who attend a Galactic Center Workshop might stay the week at top dollar, but there are only 100 of them. In the world. And while more square footage allows convention centers to accommodate bigger events, there is no guarantee that they won’t sit idle for long stretches. Sanders notes that business is not growing among the country’s 200 largest events, and that expansion makes little sense in a market where the vast majority of events do not need hundreds of thousands of square feet. “There is very clear evidence of ongoing growth on the supply side,” says Sanders. “There is every indication even from folks within the industry that the market is seriously overbuilt. There are a lot more convention centers chasing a relatively fixed volume of events.”

Boosters, of course, are quick to point out that they rarely, if ever, expect rents to cover capital costs (or even operating costs), thereby undercutting Sanders’ fiscally conservative line of criticism. “They’ve never been intended to be profitable,” says Steven Hacker, president of the International Association of Exhibitions and Events. “They’ve been intended to attract audience and the audience has the economic clout, the impact to the local community by way of hotel rooms, restaurant meals, entertainment, expenses to support the business activity on the show floor, etc. The buildings are nothing more than a convenient stage upon which to build that economic model.”

Look Who’s Paying

Sanders has acquired such nicknames as “Dr. No” from industry advocates, who maintain that the building boom, along with its billions of dollars in public expenditures, is a sign of healthy competition. “There are times when we think that competition among cities is actually healthy,” says Edward Glaeser, professor of urban economics at Harvard University. “It’s a good thing when cities compete by having better schools and safer streets and even by reducing taxes. The question is whether they’re competing in a way that actually delivers value.”

But by the time convention centers can answer the “value” question, it’s often too late to change course — and it’s likely no one bothered to make the calculations. In the pantheon of public works and the litany of angry responses generated by NIMBYs, convention centers have hit on a formula that has allowed them to proliferate and expand almost without anyone noticing. Their downtown-edge locations and low profiles help them avoid the ire of neighbors, and their funding mechanisms — bonds or, more likely, hotel taxes — mean that local taxpayers do not directly bear capital costs. “Convention centers are not sexy. They’re below the radar,” says Dennis Judd, professor of political science at the University of Illinois at Chicago. “They have very well-organized interests working on their behalf, and then you have an unorganized, inchoate public who may knit their brows. That’s an unequal contest.”

Because they play nearly no role in a city’s indigenous culture, convention centers are ignored by would-be activists and watchdogs who might speak up if it were clear that funds that could have gone to, say, schools were going to a convention center instead. “Since nobody’s ox is being directly gored, it isn’t as if you feel your kids’ kindergarten class is going to have five more students in it because they’re building this convention center — even though it might,” says Susan Fainstein, professor of planning at Harvard and editor of Tourist City.

To repay the public largesse, convention centers almost always promise positive externalities and multipliers that could, in a fanciful world, justify hundreds of millions in public subsidies. But those externalities are vague, opaque and almost impossible to measure, especially ex ante. They are, therefore, almost impossible to oppose. Meanwhile, the hotels, real estate interests, downtown business groups and public officials who gain directly from convention business portray them as painless investments. “There’s a limited range of things that cities can do and a limited range of things that mayors can say, ‘Look what I did for the city,’” says Fainstein. “They like things that are visible … but I don’t think that any rational benefit-cost analysis can justify it in most places.”

Lack In The Box

While fiscal conservatives such as Sanders might legitimately debate, or disregard, the economic benefits of convention centers, their aesthetic offenses are, with scant exception, undeniable. Convention centers — which differ from warehouses only in their cloyingly futuristic entryways and clever skins to disguise the enormous sheds therein — sit most comfortably on large forlorn parcels, often surrounded by other large, forlorn parcels. Though sightseers may wing off in search of cobblestone streets or natural grandeur, the typical convention-goer arrives with modest needs and no expectations, which are likely to be met. Cities become mere destinations — a bland chain stretching from Jetway to hotel lobby to meeting hall to Chili’s — rather than genuine places. “If you sign up for a convention center and your company sends you there, that’s where you wind up,” says Los Angeles Times architecture critic Christopher Hawthorne. “You’re not making a decision to see a particular convention center.”

Only recently have a handful of convention centers gestured toward high design. Renowned architect Rafael Viñoly has singlehandedly cornered the market on highbrow convention centers with his 1.5 million-square-foot, waterfront David L. Lawrence Convention Center in Pittsburgh and 660,000-square-foot Boston Convention and Events Center, the latter of which looks impressively like the starship Enterprise in drydock, with a titanium prow stretching toward the harbor. Otherwise, starchitects have tended to bestow their gifts elsewhere. “It’s difficult to find an architect who is self-effacing enough to [design a convention center],” says the Congress for the New Urbanism co-founder Andres Duany, whose prescriptions for urban America typically do not come in million-square-foot doses. “For most architects, a building of that size is their bid for immortality. So they want to be as different and unique as possible, and it’s very difficult with an elephantine building to do that.”

Populous (formerly HOK Sport Venue Event), the firm famous for designing neo-traditional ballparks and arenas, has positioned itself to bring innovation and higher-minded design to the next generation of convention centers. “A lot of cities … just want something incrementally better than their next competitor,” says Populous senior principal Todd Voth. “I think there’s an opportunity to redefine the whole convention center building per se, and people were just willing to take a little bit more risk.” Voth says that his group tries to embody core principles that include aesthetics, sustainability and connection to the urban fabric. The group’s flagship design opened recently in Phoenix, where an additional 870,000 square feet has tripled the facility’s size.

Then again, whatever sculptural elements or detailing an architect can bring, the greatest challenge facing convention centers is that, for the most part, they fail to relate to the urban fabric that surrounds them. Viñoly’s BCEC, for example, occupies a wide berth in a formerly industrial section of Boston. Utterly devoid of history or urban intrigue, it sits across a highway and a channel from quaint downtown streets where the shots of the Revolution once echoed. At their worst, convention centers equate to taxation without representation, because city residents are sacrificing funds that in some cases could be spent on other redevelopment strategies that enhance their street life. ” It would be surrounded by urban fabric, seamlessly,” says Duany. “It would not have blank walls. There would probably be shops. There would be liner buildings. As a convention center, it probably would not be particularly expressive.”

“Big-scale government programs for stadiums and convention centers don’t work,” says Richard Florida, author and proponent of the theory that cities gain vibrancy from the “creative class.” “Small investment into the arts provides public leaders with a viable alternative to the large capital investments and helps to foster the organic development of a creative scene that is unique to their community.”

Ultimately, convention centers are an example of the tail wagging the dog: If cities had pleasant, vibrant, appealing neighborhoods — of the sort that create their own economies and draw visitors — they wouldn’t need contrived assembly spaces in the first place. Most convention centers are removed from their communities by virtue of becoming developments that are about drawing people into the city, not about being integrated in the city culture and fabric. “In the end,” says Sanders, “what you’re getting is a box, however nicely done, that is competing in a marketplace crowded with other boxes.”


For more info.: http://americancity.org/

[somethingfast]

spot on. it's an illusion of economic progress. i'd rather see all that public money go toward subsidizing investment in small BUSINESSES. especially high-tech and manufacturing. oh well, will never happen...

[Ritarancher]

To lighten up the news i've heard that target might put a super target in the new shopping center!

[poconoboy61]

Good, good, good!!! :banana: No taxpayer funded hotel.

I wonder where all the posters are who decided that Tucson taxpayers needed to pay for this unnecessary hotel. It infuriates me that the majority have known that this monstrosity was not feasible from day one. Yet our delusional city council and a few skyscraper addicts who want to see high rise construction no matter what the cost had their heads in the clouds.

Millions and millions have been wasted on this pipe dream as well as other the other crap that the city council has vomited on the table.

The city council has done irreparable damage to Rio Nuevo. It's going to get axed completely and Tucson will end up with the same shitty downtown they had in 1999 when this started. Why people repeatedly elect these fools is BEYOND my understanding.

I think we just need to accept that Tucson is too small in population and mindset to support an active downtown. People want to keep shopping at their SuperTargets, Kohl's, and Bed Bath and Beyond's. It's time to stop pouring money into downtown and focus that money on widening roads and putting in more freeways to support our REALITY and not the pipe dreams of a select few.

[Anqrew]

To lighten up the news i've heard that target might put a super target in the new shopping center!

Which new shopping center?

[Anqrew]

I wanted to share a link. Its called 'Imagine Greater Tucson' idk if anyones heard about it, but I think it's a great effort. Anyway, I took a survey talking about things i would fix in Tucson Etc. I thought I would spread the word. Thanks! :D

http://www.imaginegreatertucson.org/

[acatalanb]

Which new shopping center?

Speaking of shopping center, I wished downtown would add the following:
- At least one major grocery store such as Trader Joe's or even a smaller Walmart grocery store right smack in the middle of downtown
- If a new or upgraded arena would be built, maybe, a large open plaza be integrated with the arena for major Tucson events. Right by the open plaza will be surrounding cafe's, restaurants (yes, even fast food) with chairs and tables outside. I'm hoping this Arena/Plaza would be architecturally pleasing to the eye instead of that old square design we have now.
- For some extravagance, a high rise biosphere park would be great with a restaurant and gym on top!
- Wouldn't it be great if Fox Theater would at least partner with those guys at Loft Cinema ?
- And if they do build that Convento Museum, maybe , it would be best if it's enclosed in a building along with the southwestern artifacts from the UA. I heard the UA have the largest collection of southwestern artifacts in the world and they need the extra space.

[Ritarancher]

Which new shopping center?

The Tucson Market Place At the Bridges

[Ritarancher]

Speaking of shopping center, I wished downtown would add the following:
- At least one major grocery store such as Trader Joe's or even a smaller Walmart grocery store right smack in the middle of downtown
- If a new or upgraded arena would be built, maybe, a large open plaza be integrated with the arena for major Tucson events. Right by the open plaza will be surrounding cafe's, restaurants (yes, even fast food) with chairs and tables outside. I'm hoping this Arena/Plaza would be architecturally pleasing to the eye instead of that old square design we have now.
- For some extravagance, a high rise biosphere park would be great with a restaurant and gym on top!
- Wouldn't it be great if Fox Theater would at least partner with those guys at Loft Cinema ?
- And if they do build that Convento Museum, maybe , it would be best if it's enclosed in a building along with the southwestern artifacts from the UA. I heard the UA have the largest collection of southwestern artifacts in the world and they need the extra space.

That is a pretty good vision. But maybe the grocery store is better on the outskirts to downtown.

[Anqrew]

That is a pretty good vision. But maybe the grocery store is better on the outskirts to downtown.

Yeah theres already the 17th St. Market

[Ritarancher]

I think that building the rainbow bridge would actually be better then the sheraton. I would bring LOTS more tourist to Tucson. It would give us more of a reason to build a skyscraper hotel. Imagine that a hotel that has a view of the greatest bridge on earth. I sure would want that hotel room.

[Ritarancher]

Yeah theres already the 17th St. Market

Good point

[Ritarancher]

I think that building the rainbow bridge would actually be better then the sheraton. I would bring LOTS more tourist to Tucson. It would give us more of a reason to build a skyscraper hotel. Imagine that a hotel that has a view of the greatest bridge on earth. I sure would want that hotel room.

I meant to say it would look better not I. :runaway:

[Ritarancher]

The bridge might even be an icon for movies. Its just that it got canceled many years ago. :yuck: I want my bridge

[Anqrew]

The bridge might even be an icon for movies. Its just that it got canceled many years ago. :yuck: I want my bridge

The Rainbow Bridge has been dead for several years now, i dont see it ever being proposed again.

[Ritarancher]

The Rainbow Bridge has been dead for several years now, i dont see it ever being proposed again.

Well maybe we should bring it up back to the city council. TUCSON NEEDS to be remembered somehow!! Maybe the bridge should be on our next ballot next year. BRing back the bridge

[Ritarancher]

Although small, I think these facade improvements have gone a long way to put a new (old) face on downtown. I like them.

Kaneui, have you ever been to San Jose, CA or familiar with its downtown?

Some similarities:

Proximity to the local University (San Jose State)
Adjacent to mostly dry river (Guadalupe river)
Proximity to rail road tracks (Big difference is San Jose's is a transportation hub for the area)
Relatively small compared to bigger cities' downtown near them (San Francisco/Oakland)
Urban sprawl surrounding city

Back in the mid-nineties San Jose's downtown was pretty blighted until the Arena and light rail was built, sound familiar? Now every time I go there it amazes me how far it has come.

I think people fail by trying to compare Tucson to Portland, I think San Jose is a better example.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/Panoramic_Downtown_San_Jose.jpg/1200px-Panoramic_Downtown_San_Jose.jpg

I think downtown Tucson has potential to be something like San Jose's rejuvenated downtown. How about Jim Click buying the bankrupt Coyotes and moving them to Tucson? Just a pipe dream I guess.

that would be nice

[Anqrew]

Well maybe we should bring it up back to the city council. TUCSON NEEDS to be remembered somehow!! Maybe the bridge should be on our next ballot next year. BRing back the bridge

as lovely as the bridge design was, its just not realistic at the time. maybe in 15 years.

[Ritarancher]

as lovely as the bridge design was, its just not realistic at the time. maybe in 15 years.

It will never happen. nothing ever will. sadly we live in the city of Tucson. Nothing ever gets done here. remember the century tower a few years ago that got a NO. the sheraton? that got a NO. rainbow bridge? that got a NO!
the unisourse energy tower twin? NOPE (that was in the 1980s i think) .we live in tucson nothing ever gets done here.

[Ritarancher]

Rio Nuevo was a good idea when it was made but it turned out to be a waste. All it does is pay for people to "talk about" skyscrapers but nothing else. when you tax the city you tax it all or none.

[acatalanb]

Yeah theres already the 17th St. Market

Yeah, 17th St. is a great store. It's just quite a walk from central downtown. If we're gonna build more housing downtown, we might as well have a grocer within walking distance. It's more appealing for future residents.

[acatalanb]

It will never happen. nothing ever will. sadly we live in the city of Tucson. Nothing ever gets done here. remember the century tower a few years ago that got a NO. the sheraton? that got a NO. rainbow bridge? that got a NO!
the unisourse energy tower twin? NOPE (that was in the 1980s i think) .we live in tucson nothing ever gets done here.

Got that right! I think there was even a proposal to build a brand new city hall skyscraper way back in the 90's in front of the downtown library. And thereafter, on the same location, a condo high rise was even proposed. As usual, it was front page news with all the drawings.

[acatalanb]

I believe the famous Rio Nuevo audit will come out today, Friday. I'd be interested where the money got wasted. Anyway, I still have high hopes with this project. Downtown east seems to be moving forward.

[acatalanb]

Well maybe we should bring it up back to the city council. TUCSON NEEDS to be remembered somehow!! Maybe the bridge should be on our next ballot next year. BRing back the bridge

I like the Rainbow Bridge. Hope they bring it back on the table. I could see myself driving from I-10 West approaching this bridge. It would be an attraction indeed.
And yes, it is better than the Hotel considering low occupancy rates in Tucson's existing hotels.

[somethingfast]

Got that right! I think there was even a proposal to build a brand new city hall skyscraper way back in the 90's in front of the downtown library. And thereafter, on the same location, a condo high rise was even proposed. As usual, it was front page news with all the drawings.

i remember the unisource (originally united bank) twin they planned back in the mid-80's...it never happened because there's little demand for Class A space in downtown bottom-line.

there was actually a magazine in the 80's (AZ Business or something??) that ran a spread back in 1986 that showed all the projects planned for downtown tucson. unbelievable. lots 20 and 30 story buildings. fantasy land. same thing for phoenix...they had this awesome two-page spread in color that showed all these projects including what would be the world's tallest building (113 stories) in mid-town. i'd KILL to get a copy of that magazine just for nostalgia purposes.

point is, arizona is a real estate boom and bust state...big plans when things are going well...evaporate into the air when the market collapses...cuz they are mostly speculative plans not based on market demand. that's changing in phoenix but tucson still has no real need for more space sadly.

[acatalanb]

i remember the unisource (originally united bank) twin they planned back in the mid-80's...it never happened because there's little demand for Class A space in downtown bottom-line.

there was actually a magazine in the 80's (AZ Business or something??) that ran a spread back in 1986 that showed all the projects planned for downtown tucson. unbelievable. lots 20 and 30 story buildings. fantasy land. same thing for phoenix...they had this awesome two-page spread in color that showed all these projects including what would be the world's tallest building (113 stories) in mid-town. i'd KILL to get a copy of that magazine just for nostalgia purposes.

point is, arizona is a real estate boom and bust state...big plans when things are going well...evaporate into the air when the market collapses...cuz they are mostly speculative plans not based on market demand. that's changing in phoenix but tucson still has no real need for more space sadly.

I lived in Phoenix in the mid-80's. There was also proposal to build the tallest building in the world (Phx) back then. In fact, there was even a proposal to build a light rail system in Phoenix in the 80's. Those were the days when all those crosstown freeways were planned and actually built in Phoenix. Man, I wished Tucson would build at least one crosstown freeway...it's getting too crowded during rush hour.

[Anqrew]

I lived in Phoenix in the mid-80's. There was also proposal to build the tallest building in the world (Phx) back then. In fact, there was even a proposal to build a light rail system in Phoenix in the 80's. Those were the days when all those crosstown freeways were planned and actually built in Phoenix. Man, I wished Tucson would build at least one crosstown freeway...it's getting too crowded during rush hour.

I would love a crosstown freeway but the opposition and price is too much. i think building a series of grade-separated intersections along broadway would be a good alternative. Then there would be a speedy way to go across town but without the effects having a freeway going through the city.

[aznate27]

I would love a crosstown freeway but the opposition and price is too much. i think building a series of grade-separated intersections along broadway would be a good alternative. Then there would be a speedy way to go across town but without the effects having a freeway going through the city.

I totally agree:tup: Not only along Broadway, but better yet Grant road as well. It runs through the heart of the city and would make going from the eastside to the northwestside alot quicker.

[Ritarancher]

I will not stop talking about the rainbow until it happens!!! As a citizen of Tucson i truly want a landmark and Rainbow bridge is the best!!! Look at how landmarks have done to other cities


The Gateway Arch of St. Louis:costing $13 million ($89,638,095 today) Gives St. Louis A lot of tourism.


Las Vegas : The Los Vegas sign is very simple but is an icon for Las Vegas.


Seattle: The Space Needle; it was built for the 1962 World's Fair, during which time nearly 20,000 people a day used the elevators, with over 2.3 million visitors in all for the World Fair.


Toronto Canada: Cn tower: The tallest freestanding structure in the world.



All of these cities have benefited because of these structures. Most also got hotel towers to follow. So why can't Tucson have one? besides if we don't Phoenix or New York will steal it!!!

[kaneui]

In detailing all the bad news we were expecting, the much-anticipated Rio Nuevo audit slams the original board and city management for straying from the initial purpose of the TIF district by not having specific guidelines for spending their funds and then throwing lots of cash at extraneous projects, rather than focusing on the convention center and creating revenue sources for the future.

Even with the scathing audit, state Sen. Frank Antenori says there is little chance that the state will dismantle Rio Nuevo, as there are so few tax dollars to be recouped from doing so. With the hotel decision behind them, Tucson officials are now anxious for the city and the new Rio Nuevo board to take the lessons learned and finalize an intergovernmental agreement (IGA) so both sides can work together on downtown projects that are feasible and affordable.



Audit slams Rio Nuevo board
City disorganization, inappropriate projects and few results found

by Rob O'Dell
Arizona Daily Star
October 30, 2010

Tucson's Rio Nuevo downtown-redevelopment district was beset by mismanagement and a lack of financial oversight and internal controls that led a majority of its projects to remain incomplete despite more than $230 million being spent, a state-ordered audit released Friday shows. While the audit conducted by Crowe Horwath of Los Angeles for the state auditor general is not the smoking gun some had expected, the report, more than 75 pages, confirms that much of the Rio Nuevo money has been spent on planning or projects that stalled. Money also went to projects that - while not illegal - were not in the spirit of Rio Nuevo's mission, the audit says. And the city's financial record keeping was disorganized, making tracking the spending nearly impossible.

The audit's findings mirror those made in Arizona Daily Star investigations of Rio Nuevo over the past three years. Key findings in the audit include:

• Rio Nuevo completed only two of the 15 projects listed on the 1999 ballot - the Fox Theatre and the Presidio wall.

• More than half of Rio Nuevo's projects are incomplete or on hold.

• The city's Rio Nuevo financial data on projects was "abbreviated, incomplete and confusing."

• Money was spent on projects that were not compliant with Rio Nuevo's mission.

• The city reimbursed the University of Arizona expenses related to a proposed science center that were questionable and not allowed by state law.

• The city charged Rio Nuevo excessive interest rates for the district's unpaid loan balances.

• The previous Rio Nuevo board failed in its financial oversight.

"When viewed from a value-added perspective, the current outcomes are unsatisfactory," the audit said. "Only a small number of other projects - two theaters, underpass, roundabout, and the two TCC projects - are tangible, complete and recognized as such." The city views the audit as "lessons learned," City Manager Mike Letcher said. "It's an opportunity to close this chapter of Rio Nuevo."

Many Rio Nuevo critics hoped the audit would reveal new allegations of malfeasance by Tucson's bureaucrats and elected officials. However, the report doesn't do that or "name names." In fact, there's not one name listed in the audit. The audit spends many pages criticizing the city and Rio Nuevo for not making the Tucson Convention Center a central focus of the district. Because the audit is almost uniformly negative, it mostly is a condemnation of how the city and Rio Nuevo operated before 2010, said Alan Willenbrock, a former Rio Nuevo board member who is a chartered financial analyst. The only positive comments are about the new state-appointed Rio Nuevo board and Rio Nuevo's former Citizens Advisory Committee. "Many of these audits say positive things, outline successes, and have a few areas of concern," Willenbrock said. "This one is almost completely opposite. … As these things go, it's pretty scathing."

Only two completed projects
Of the 15 projects originally listed on the ballot, only two have been completed more than 10 years after voters created the district, the audit found. Those two were Fox Theatre and the Presidio wall. But the Fox Theatre later had to be taken over by the city to avoid bankruptcy and the city spent nearly triple the original budget of $4.2 million. In addition, the theater still owes the city $7.5 million, which it will unlikely be able to repay.

Because the district spent so much money on an assortment of projects - many with only tenuous ties to the redevelopment - the district "was spread too widely and too thin" and missed the economic leveraging tools to bring more money into the district. "As a result, 10 years later the city is left still without an economic catalyst that is designed to bring in outsiders, in a way to inject the historic core of Tucson with new money," the audit said.

Lax financial control
The audit found the city's Rio Nuevo financial data to be incomplete and confusing. "Other than generally using the same project names, this information does not track one report to the next," it said. This "deficiency of detail and lack of continuity" continued until August 2008, just after the Star published the first installment of its Rio Nuevo investigation, in which more than 100,000 records were scrutinized to create the first detailed account of how Rio Nuevo money was spent.

Noncompliant projects
The audit identified five Rio Nuevo projects it contends were, or could be, noncompliant with state laws. Those projects include three that were outside the district and had tenuous ties to its mission: a roundabout on South Grande Avenue and infrastructure projects in Barrio Viejo and Barrio Sin Nombre. The report also said two other projects were noncompliant. One was a housing project by developer Don Bourn. It was never built, despite Rio Nuevo spending $900,000 and the razing of a 100-year-old building. The audit said housing was not a purpose of the district under state law. It also criticized a land purchase made in north downtown, where the Rio Nuevo later built the Presidio wall, so the city could complete a land swap with the Downtown Development Corporation.

UA reimbursement
Reimbursements to the UA for expenses for computers, salaries, iPhones, phone service, travel to Italy, subscriptions, food and conferences were questionable and not allowed by state law, the audit said. These expenses were highlighted by a Star investigation into the spending for a proposed science center project with the UA that was ultimately scrapped.

Excessive interest
The city charged the Rio Nuevo district excessive interest rates on the money it owed the city, the audit found. It estimates the city overcharged Rio Nuevo about $450,000. The audit recommends the city pay back the money. The amount could be much larger if the excessively low interest rates of the previous decade were used to calculate the interest owed, the audit said. The city simply charged the interest rate at which it borrowed, City Finance Director Kelly Gottschalk said. Rio Nuevo still owes the city $1.7 million, she added.

Rio Nuevo Board's failures
The strongest criticism from the audit was directed at the Rio Nuevo board that governed the district through 2009. It found the board's "lack of strategic oversight and management" resulted in a "disjointed use" of Rio Nuevo money for "subordinate projects or for funding non-sustainable major projects only tangentially related to the district's mandates." The board didn't meet for a year and started meeting again only after the first installment of the Star's Rio Nuevo audit in 2008. "In essence, the district was treated as an extension or department of the city," the audit said. "The pre-2010 district board lacked essential fiscal and project-specific management reports and relied heavily on oral reports from city staff to oversee and administer funds in which (the) District had fiduciary responsibility."


For more info:

Arizona Illustrated interview with City Manager Mike Letcher: http://www.azpm.org/news/story/2010/10/29/1412-what-now/

Inside Arizona Business article: http://www.azbiz.com/articles/2010/10/29/news/doc4ccb12f3ef56a900455645.txt

[acatalanb]

I'm a forward looking guy and hate to constantly remember past mistakes ( referring to the Rio Nuevo debacle ) ... life is too short . I found this site (http://www.worldarchitecturenews.com/index.php?fuseaction=wanappln.shownewsinpictures&page=1) via google .

I hope the city would refer to this site (http://www.worldarchitecturenews.com/index.php?fuseaction=wanappln.shownewsinpictures&page=1) as a reference on what needs to be done with regards to upgrading Tucson from it's old barrio mentality. Tucson really needs to move forward with regards to it's architecture. Tucson seems obsessed in building this barrio and that barrio. We're in the 21st century not the 19th century.

If Tucson needs to build a barrio, at least make it look like a 21st century barrio not a museum artifact.

[acatalanb]

I totally agree:tup: Not only along Broadway, but better yet Grant road as well. It runs through the heart of the city and would make going from the eastside to the northwestside alot quicker.

Grant Rd. crosstown freeway was put up to vote around 01-02, it was turned down by the voters. Yeah, Grant Rd. would be perfect for a freeway due to it's proximity at the UA and TMC. In fact, Kolb-Grant-1st Ave would make a good snaked crosstown freeway.

[acatalanb]

I will not stop talking about the rainbow until it happens!!! As a citizen of Tucson i truly want a landmark and Rainbow bridge is the best!!! Look at how landmarks have done to other cities


The Gateway Arch of St. Louis:costing $13 million ($89,638,095 today) Gives St. Louis A lot of tourism.


Las Vegas : The Los Vegas sign is very simple but is an icon for Las Vegas.


Seattle: The Space Needle; it was built for the 1962 World's Fair, during which time nearly 20,000 people a day used the elevators, with over 2.3 million visitors in all for the World Fair.


Toronto Canada: Cn tower: The tallest freestanding structure in the world.



All of these cities have benefited because of these structures. Most also got hotel towers to follow. So why can't Tucson have one? besides if we don't Phoenix or New York will steal it!!!

Please don't stop! I could imagine myself eating a breakfast burro w/ espresso staring at that bridge on a fine sunday morning.

[Ritarancher]

The Rainbow will be like :omg: to all of the I-10 travelers

[Ritarancher]

Please don't stop! I could imagine myself eating a breakfast burro w/ espresso staring at that bridge on a fine sunday morning.

we should write a letter to the city council about this bridge.

[Ritarancher]

tucson is in trouble because there are too many people running it.

There should be 1 mayor who gets stuff done

3 city council members to inform the mayor of the city's needs and wants

1 treasurer

nothing gets done with too many people running a city. Problems we have now
1. we never get anything done due to our weak mayor system.

2. too many people with too many opinions prevent anything to happen

3. while the council members have meetings about skyscrapers,bridges,neighborhoods ect; they are getting paid and wasting tax payer money.

the new plan would allow...


1. the mayor would have more power


2. the city would have more money


3.decisions wont waste too much tax payer money


4. tucson will be on (more) maps


Same with rio nuevo. the only place the tax money is going to is the rio nuevo employees wallets. there are too many people in rio nuevo. there should be a leader, a treasurer and 2 others. even so rio nuevo should tax the whole city or nothing at all.in this economy i think there should be nothing at all. maybe in 2015 when the economy is hopefully better the city could be taxed. but now is a bad time.

[acatalanb]

we should write a letter to the city council about this bridge.

Help yourself. I've already sent a handful of ideas to one of the council members among them is a biosphere park, plaza by the convention center that's extended over a bridge to the west side with our own 'spanish steps' on each end of the bridge, the convention center double as an art gallery, a tower, a grocery store etc.. I even requested something far out such as extending the light rail all the way to mt. lemon.

I hate to see a convention center building empty at least half the time, so might as well double it as an art museum. The plaza would come in handy for Tucson's outside events such as county fair, tucson meet yourself, UA spring fling, gem show etc... The rainbow bridge might come in handy right by the plaza.

Other stuff I suggested was a real top of the line IMAX theatre, cafes and restaurants facing the plaza and convention center with chairs/tables in between and of course, more apts with at least 5 floors.

I might add, I suggested to develop the convention center into phases. Each phase initiated per $$ available instead of one big project. We can start out with the open plaza and a small or upgraded convention center. As funds get generated, go to next phase such as a bigger new world class convention center and so forth.

[Ritarancher]

Help yourself. I've already sent a handful of ideas to one of the council members among them is a biosphere park, plaza by the convention center that's extended over a bridge to the west side with our own 'spanish steps' on each end of the bridge, the convention center double as an art gallery, a tower, a grocery store etc.. I even requested something far out such as extending the light rail all the way to mt. lemon.

I hate to see a convention center building empty at least half the time, so might as well double it as an art museum. The plaza would come in handy for Tucson's outside events such as county fair, tucson meet yourself, UA spring fling, gem show etc... The rainbow bridge might come in handy right by the plaza.

Other stuff I suggested was a real top of the line IMAX theatre, cafes and restaurants facing the plaza and convention center with chairs/tables in between and of course, more apts with at least 5 floors.

I might add, I suggested to develop the convention center into phases. Each phase initiated per $$ available instead of one big project. We can start out with the open plaza and a small or upgraded convention center. As funds get generated, go to next phase such as a bigger new world class convention center and so forth.

We need an aquarium and pandas at the zoo. we also need ant eaters around the city to eat all of the ants. i was at toys r u on broadway yesterday and there was like 2000 ants

[Ritarancher]

We need an aquarium and pandas at the zoo. we also need ant eaters around the city to eat all of the ants. i was at toys r u on broadway yesterday and there was like 2000 ants

i forgot to mention an I kia.

[acatalanb]

i forgot to mention an I kia.

Aquarium is not a bad idea. Doesn't have to be huge or extravagant. Maybe they should add that to the convention center

[Ritarancher]

Aquarium is not a bad idea. Doesn't have to be huge or extravagant. Maybe they should add that to the convention center

It should be in Rita Ranch.
I don't actually live in rita ranch

[Anqrew]

Grant Rd. crosstown freeway was put up to vote around 01-02, it was turned down by the voters. Yeah, Grant Rd. would be perfect for a freeway due to it's proximity at the UA and TMC. In fact, Kolb-Grant-1st Ave would make a good snaked crosstown freeway.

Yeah Grant/Kolb would work perfectly. Has anyone ever been to this site? http://www.arizonaroads.com/urban/index.html

http://i51.tinypic.com/2mqwb50.gif

[acatalanb]

Yeah Grant/Kolb would work perfectly. Has anyone ever been to this site? http://www.arizonaroads.com/urban/index.html


Interesting information ....
I hope with the new RTA (http://www.rtamobility.com/Home.aspx) , this time, things would move forward. The RTA, Regional Transportation Authority (http://www.rtamobility.com/Home.aspx), seems to be doing a good job ... so far.

[acatalanb]

Here's a link (http://www.robertabrandesgratz.com/links/) from a downtown renovation expert ... in case anyone is interested.
I sent this link few years back to one of the city council members. This expert favors building lots of affordable housing downtown to renovate.
And she prefers renovating downtown primarily for the needs of the surrounding community ( tourism comes secondary ).

[Ritarancher]

When is the city gonna talk about the rainbow bridge?

[Ritarancher]

Tucson needs A bridge over 1-10 that is white during the day but rainbow during the night. "A mountain" is cool but not cool enough

[Ritarancher]

Tucson is on lots of list.
top 50 most populated city---- Tucson IS 31 (2000 CENSUS)
top solar energy city
One of the 30 fastest cities
ect:

one list that we are sadly on is the ugliest downtown. A Sheraton wouldn't fix that (maybe 12)
A rainbow bridge would,

we would be the prettiest downtown in the usa. well maybe not..... we still have ugly old warehouses and run down offices.... well we would be 2 then

[Ritarancher]

Maybe when the info from the 2010 census comes in the city might discuss the bridge again...


But even if we had 5,000,000 our skyline would still suck because there are too many people running the city.

[Anqrew]

When is the city gonna talk about the rainbow bridge?

I imagine no one will be willing to talk about it unless its completely privately funded. Too much negativity surrounds the words "Rainbow Bridge" and "Rio Nuevo"

[Ritarancher]

listen dude, Rainbow bridge is best for the people.If your not gonna support this then your not a real Tucsonan

[Anqrew]

listen dude, Rainbow bridge is best for the people.If your not gonna support this then your not a real Tucsonan

Okay..... :koko:
so where's this money to build the bridge going to come from exactly?

[dtnphx]

As a somewhat frequent visitor to Tucson from Phoenix, I have to say your downtown is way more interesting and funky than Phoenix in almost every way. I was there this past Saturday night. Being it was the night before Halloween, 4th Ave was hopping. Crazyness everywhere. Congress St. was also great. I love the new overpass over 4th, that features those photo tiles. What I love about Tucson is that, for the most part, you don't generally tear down buildings, you reuse them. Therefore your downtown is filled with buildings Phoenix used to have, but have been demolished to make way for projects that never came about or are not creatively designed. Tucson's streetscape in and around downtown is scaled for people and for walking. Phoenix has giant, monolithic buildings with very little human scale. Nice buildings for sure, but cold and isolating, too. I love what's beginning to happen in downtown Phoenix, but we have a long way to go to appreciate what it means to have a vibrant, young streetscape like I saw this past weekend in Tucson. Cheers from up the road!

[acatalanb]

Yeah, downtown Tucson has great potential. In fact, the whole city of Tucson has the potential to be a great city given the rich culture and topography. Phoenix is one huge bland monolithic factory produced city ( having lived there during the 80's ). There's this joke - "Why can't a drunk in Phoenix find his home" ANS: "Because all the houses in Phoenix look the same". I have people coming from the east and visit Phoenix, they'd all have this satirical laugh about the place.

I would hope Tucson would be more like Portland, Oregon. I lived there for a few months. Most of the city blocks are smaller making it a 'walkable' city. Portland's highway ramps are designed differently , also. It doesn't have those diamond shaped ramps. More like a clover leaf. Their light rail is positioned so as that the rail stops is within walking distance anywhere. Downtown Portland has a mixed bag of residential/business/retail blocks/buildings much like what's happening in east downtown Tucson. Portland's tap water taste like Perrier. And the seafood is freakin cheap!!

One downside about Portland, the city of roses , is that it rains a lot. That's why I left the place. In the 5-6 months I lived there, it only stopped raining the whole day one time. And during that one sunny time, more people were out enjoying the 'opportunity' such as biking ( it's also called a biking town, having all those bike paths, chuckles).

[acatalanb]

.... I might add, Portland also preserved it's past. You still have buildings that were built from the 1800's (it has victorian houses) . In fact, I see Portland to be a city that has been frozen since the 60's (and drenched with mud). You just don't see much updated building or home construction (it's an anti-Phoenix) . Driving is also a challenge and adventure since it doesn't have that grid pattern block that Phoenix has.

Anyways, of all the cities I've been. You still can't beat San Francisco.

[kaneui]

The UA School of Architecture wants to lease downtown's Roy Place Building with its newly restored facade from the county, although high tenant improvement costs could be a deal breaker:


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/kaneui/RoyPlaceBldgrenovation-1.jpg
The renovation of the exterior of the former
Walgreens building at Stone and Pennington
restored the façade to its 1929 appearance.
(photo: Downtown Tucsonan)


Pima County awaits tenant for ‘new’ Walgreens building
Interior renovation costs are an issue for those eyeing the space.

by Teya Vitu
Downtown Tucsonan
November, 2010

Architect Roy Place could come back today and recognize the Montgomery Ward building he designed in 1929 for the corner of Stone Avenue and Pennington Street. Perhaps he would be caught off guard that the building today bears his name, but he surely would be thrilled that the garish 1956 Walgreens façade is gone – at least on the Stone side of the building. Pima County in September completed an $800,000 façade renovation that restored the original 1929 Spanish Colonial Revival look to the Stone façade, the peaked tower at the corner and 20 feet down the Pennington façade. The Walgreens look remains along the rest of the Pennington side because the county did not have enough money to renovate the entire façade, said Reid Spaulding, director of the county’s Facilities Management Department.

The Roy Place building joins several other along Congress Street and Broadway that have restored facades evoking the 1910s, 1920s and 1930s. Work has proceeded off and on at the former Walgreens building since April 2009. The Roy Place building stands at what is deemed a “100 percent corner” because of the openness of Jácome Plaza across the street and the Legal Services, Bank of America and Pioneer towers within a few feet in three directions, said Linda Mayro, manager of the Pima County Cultural Resources and Historic Preservation Office. Standing on Jácome Plaza allows you to see both the Roy Place building and the Old Pima County Courthouse, also designed by Place. “It’s very much the same style as the Old Pima County Courthouse,” Mayro said.

The University of Arizona’s College of Architecture and Landscape Architecture has eyed the building for nearly two years with varying ideas on how to establish a Downtown presence. Dean Jan Cervelli said the current notion is to fill the building with the masters in public administration program and geographic information systems programs; an urban design studio and honors college outreach services. Cervelli said she is negotiating a memo of understanding with Pima County but there is still uncertainty how the university would fund tenant improvements in the Roy Place building.

Spaulding estimates a minimum $300,000 cost to the UA for interior mechanical, life safety and bare essential work, but he suspects the 1940s heating, ventilation and air condition system will require substantial repair work if not complete replacement, which would drive the cost significantly higher for UA. Pima County wants to sell the Walgreens/ Pima County building and one stipulation is any interior issues are the responsibility of the tenant, Spaulding said. Cervelli and Spaulding are “hopeful” an MOU can be agreed to soon, preferably by the end of the year. “The ball is in the university’s hands,” Spaulding said.

[Anqrew]

Eileen Fagan, head of Imagine Greater Tucson, talks about her efforts to bring together citizens, businesses, organizations and regional leaders to shape the future of the Tucson region.

http://media.azpm.org/master/image/2010/11/1/spot/eileen_fagen_617_347.jpg

Here is the link to the Interview with IGT on Arizona Illustrated:
http://tv.azpm.org/whatson/spotlight/2010/11/1/156-imagining-a-greater-tucson/

and don't forget to visit:
http://www.imaginegreatertucson.org/

[azliam]

Yeah, downtown Tucson has great potential. In fact, the whole city of Tucson has the potential to be a great city given the rich culture and topography. Phoenix is one huge bland monolithic factory produced city ( having lived there during the 80's ). There's this joke - "Why can't a drunk in Phoenix find his home" ANS: "Because all the houses in Phoenix look the same". I have people coming from the east and visit Phoenix, they'd all have this satirical laugh about the place.

I would hope Tucson would be more like Portland, Oregon. I lived there for a few months. Most of the city blocks are smaller making it a 'walkable' city. Portland's highway ramps are designed differently , also. It doesn't have those diamond shaped ramps. More like a clover leaf. Their light rail is positioned so as that the rail stops is within walking distance anywhere. Downtown Portland has a mixed bag of residential/business/retail blocks/buildings much like what's happening in east downtown Tucson. Portland's tap water taste like Perrier. And the seafood is freakin cheap!!

One downside about Portland, the city of roses , is that it rains a lot. That's why I left the place. In the 5-6 months I lived there, it only stopped raining the whole day one time. And during that one sunny time, more people were out enjoying the 'opportunity' such as biking ( it's also called a biking town, having all those bike paths, chuckles).

Having lived in Tucson for almost 20 years, I can certainly tell you that there are also shit houses that look the same there.

Tucson is a prettier city when it comes to the mountains and desert surroundings, but for as much as 'some' of the neighborhoods in the Phoenix metro look alike, at least many of them look aesthetically cleaner than what you'll find in Tucson. Driving through Tucson on I-10 alone is not pleasing to the eye.

[Anqrew]

Having lived in Tucson for almost 20 years, I can certainly tell you that there are also shit houses that look the same there.

Tucson is a prettier city when it comes to the mountains and desert surroundings, but for as much as 'some' of the neighborhoods in the Phoenix metro look alike, at least many of them look aesthetically cleaner than what you'll find in Tucson. Driving through Tucson on I-10 alone is not pleasing to the eye.

Well houses along the freeway aren't exactly considered upscale lol. All of Tucson's nicer neighborhoods are tucked into the Valley, like Tucson Country Club & El Encanto

[acatalanb]

I remember way back in the 90's, Phx mayor Rimska complained about the new houses in Phoenix looking the same and he proposed some kind of city ordinance to force housing developers to build houses that are unique looking next to each other. I think almost everywhere , new housing developers are more concerned about 'the bottom line' instead of the unique aesthetic character of a community.

The houses at Armory Park close to downtown Tucson is a good example of what a community should look like. Houses look different from each other. These houses even have a gate and a front porch ( unlikely for new houses these days ). Another nice Tucson neighborhood is Sam Hughes close to UA

[acatalanb]

.... Driving through Tucson on I-10 alone is not pleasing to the eye.

Well of course, just look at downtown Tucson!! Personally, I'd replace most (not all) of the downtown buildings built between 1970 and 2000.

Anyway, one big improvement from the I-10 eyesore was getting rid of that large garbage landfill west of downtown (thanks to Rio Nuevo funding, believe or not ).:cheers:

[azliam]

Well houses along the freeway aren't exactly considered upscale lol. All of Tucson's nicer neighborhoods are tucked into the Valley, like Tucson Country Club & El Encanto

Yes, but outside of a few nice neighborhoods and downtown, for as walkable as Tucson has the potential to be, one thing it definitely lacks are clean and aesthetically pleasing sidewalks. In addition, those open spaces with garbage strung all over are a disgrace, especially when the open spaces are just filled with rocks (and glass and garbage).

[Teacher_AZ_84]

Just drive on Speedway from I-10 to the University. It's very un-appealing. When I first came down from PHX to check out UA I got a very bad impression of Tucson, just like many of my friends did. Like AZLIAM stated, all those lots are strewn with trash, weeds and glass shards. The lots that are developed are dilapidated. I would like Tucson to do a beautification project on Speedway. It's the gateway for many driving to UA and first impressions are important.

That being said, I have fallen in love with Tucson's natural surroundings and charm (and better weather compared to Phx). Tucson has some gem neighborhoods scattered around, just like Phx. We also have some not-so-nice neighborhoods just like up north.

[Anqrew]

Just drive on Speedway from I-10 to the University. It's very un-appealing. When I first came down from PHX to check out UA I got a very bad impression of Tucson, just like many of my friends did. Like AZLIAM stated, all those lots are strewn with trash, weeds and glass shards. The lots that are developed are dilapidated. I would like Tucson to do a beautification project on Speedway. It's the gateway for many driving to UA and first impressions are important.

That being said, I have fallen in love with Tucson's natural surroundings and charm (and better weather compared to Phx). Tucson has some gem neighborhoods scattered around, just like Phx. We also have some not-so-nice neighborhoods just like up north.

Well in several years they're going to be fixing the speedway underpass to widen it to 6 lanes so that will help a bit. :)
http://cms3.tucsonaz.gov/project/speedway

[Teacher_AZ_84]

Thanks for the link. At least it's something...

[Ritarancher]

Well houses along the freeway aren't exactly considered upscale lol. All of Tucson's nicer neighborhoods are tucked into the Valley, like Tucson Country Club & El Encanto

I don't actually live in rita ranch I live in the freeway houses and they aren't bad. maybe the ones next to the dump and the jail are but that is what people can afford. Besides don't judge a book by a cover, the insides of the houses are very nice. i have a north facing room and I have a view of all of the city. night views are very nice.

[andrewsaturn]

I think one of the key revitalization features of a downtown should include water fountains. I believe there was a recently proposed man made river along I-10 that would have restaurants etc. along it... And as it is a wonderful idea, I think on a more plausible and feasible scale, water fountains make the a scene much more exciting to go to and obviously would improve landscape and make it aesthetically pleasing. They are also great for photography! Also I am not just talking about nice small ones (although it would be more fitting for the size of downtown Tucson) but a really magnificent one ( but maybe not as big as some in Las Vegas) I was thinking of putting a really large circular one just east of Rialto Theater in that parking lot instead of the plaza centro project that is proposed there. Here are some cities that have done it right:
http://images.travelpod.com/users/carlaandmike/2.1251959848.hyde-park-fountain.jpg

Sydney australia. I actually have a personal photo of myself in front of this fountain! I went there for student volunteer work.

http://www.downtownpittsburgh.com/_files/images/beautiful-downtown-pittsburgh.jpg

You can see the fountain at the bottom left hand corner. Its looks like it can be really large in person. Its the city of Pittsburgh and it was named the most livable city in America.

http://www.arestorationchurch.org/images/album/Pittsburgh/slides/point%20fountain.jpg

closer look at fountain. Pittsburgh

http://www.apt-nc.org/newsletter/Downtown%20Portland2.JPG

Downtown Portland.

http://www.naranoncalifornia.org/sandiego/fountain.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2623/3741152893_bd8a671d46.jpg?v=0
San deigo

http://ag.arizona.edu/research/kubota/Links/images/Old%20Main.jpg

Of course U of A. I wish we had more of these in the city.

http://www.globalgayz.com/image/Mexico-alameda-park-aztec-fountains-witches?w=600&h=600

http://www.globalgayz.com/image/Mexico-alameda-park-public-park-city-2?w=600&h=600
Mexico City

http://www.z-mation.com/phpbb/files/ny_city_hall_park_14_830.jpg

New York City

http://www.jali.net/pensacola/images/fountain.jpg

downtown Kansas City. The tourist said more fountains than rome!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/168/420809459_49a1955f99.jpg

Los Angeles.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1218/1486042150_d5c274e591_o.jpg

Salt Lake City

http://img.groundspeak.com/waymarking/display/17d1af54-77a0-4f09-a165-b4a7077d057e.jpg

St. Louis

[Anqrew]

Downtown Tucson's East End featured in November Sunset Magazine

Tucson Day Trip: Downtown’s East End
Tucson's historic district gets a breath of fresh air with new shops, hip restaurants, and family-friendly walking tours
http://img4.sunset.com/i/2010/11/tucson-hotel-congress-1110-m.jpg

Why go now: Fresh restaurants, boutiques, and a revamped underpass linking it to the University of Arizona neighborhood have breathed new energy into this historic district.

Main drag: Congress Street

Also worth a stroll: Pennington Street, and Scott and Stone Avenues.

Bring your plastic: The Rockin’ Queen (closed Sun; 45 S. Sixth Ave.; 520/461-1076) has up-and-coming clothing labels at feel-good prices. At Got All Your Marbles (closed Sun; 220 E. Congress St.; 520/628-1433), you can mix and match gemstones in all of its hand-cast jewelry.

Sign the neighborhood has arrived: James Beard award–winning chef Janos Wilder is opening Downtown Kitchen + Cocktails (debut scheduled for October; $$; 135 S. Sixth; 520/623-7700).

For something more casual: Head to the pet-friendly patio at the new branch of Monkey Burger ($; closed Sun; 47 N. Sixth) for a classic patty with fried pickles and sweet-potato fries.

Dig deeper: Explore ruins of the city’s Spanish settlement on the Presidio Trail walking tour (map at tucsonpresidiotrust.org).

Hit the town
Congress Street buzzes at night with retro watering holes like the Hotel Congress—where John Dillinger and his gang were briefly captured—and theaters like the Rialto and the Fox Tucson. People-watch at the hotel’s Cup Cafe or raise a glass at its Club Congress.

Play on the tracks
Kick-start your day with a latte and fresh Danish pastry at Maynards Market ($$; 400 N. Toole Ave.; 520/545-0577) in the historic train depot’s refurbed art deco waiting room, then browse shelves chock-a-block with local tamales and salsas, organic wines, and handcrafted soaps.

Afterward, check out the cool locomotives in the Southern Arizona Transportation Museum ($5 donation suggested; 414 N. Toole).

Art, music, mystery
The surreal, religious visions of Daniel Martin Diaz have traveled around the country. Now his Old Master–style paintings have a permanent home at the museum-cum-curio-shop Sacred Machine.

Can’t afford the art? Check out the painted skateboards, guitars, and CDs by Blind Divine, the band founded by Diaz and his wife. 245 E. Congress St.

Happy hour
Take in the bar scene at 47 Scott bistro or have a quieter cocktail under the cafe lights on the back patio.

For dinner, we love the riffs on American classics like mini grilled cheese on challah or mac ’n’ cheese with fresh herbs. The bread salad—housemade mozzarella, tomato, and baguette chunks topped with a fried egg—is a knockout. $$; closed Sun; 47 N. Scott Ave.; 520/624-4747.

Make it a weekend
Downtown is a great place to kick up your heels at night—which gives you a good excuse to check into the Royal Elizabeth Bed & Breakfast Inn. One of Arizona’s oldest homes, this gracious 1878 Victorian has thick adobe walls, high ceilings, and gleaming wood floors—plus a pool in case you need a pick-me-up swim the next morning. $219, including breakfast.

http://www.sunset.com/travel/southwest/tucson-day-trip-00418000069681/

[acatalanb]

Anqrew, thanks for that link.

Although, Rialto, Hotel Congress and the Apts around One Fifth/MLK is worth the visit, I'm not quite sure about the Pennington, Stone and Scott Ave part. I wouldn't stroll those roads at night at this moment.

If I had the power, I'd replaced the old Pioneer Hotel, Bank of America and the Pima County Superior Court, Pima Legal Services, City Hall with a mixed of Apts/Condos/Retail . Replaced as in replaced by a wrecking ball.

City Hall and Pima County gov'ts should be housed in the 'proposed' (and ugly) new Joint City/Pima Justice Courts (Stone Ave. & Alameda St.) with one brand new high rise. I think it would be more convenient to have all those local gov't offices in one place.

[Ritarancher]

Anqrew, thanks for that link.

Although, Rialto, Hotel Congress and the Apts around One Fifth/MLK is worth the visit, I'm not quite sure about the Pennington, Stone and Scott Ave part. I wouldn't stroll those roads at night at this moment.

If I had the power, I'd replaced the old Pioneer Hotel, Bank of America and the Pima County Superior Court, Pima Legal Services, City Hall with a mixed of Apts/Condos/Retail . Replaced as in replaced by a wrecking ball.

City Hall and Pima County gov'ts should be housed in the 'proposed' (and ugly) new Joint City/Pima Justice Courts (Stone Ave. & Alameda St.) with one brand new high rise. I think it would be more convenient to have all those local gov't offices in one place.

dude u r insane. those are architectural marvels. do u hate tucson!!
Besides that's like me saying we should knockdown your house!!! see it is not nice.

[Ritarancher]

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/kaneui/CountyCityCourthouserender.jpg

So your saying this is ugly?
Awkward

[acatalanb]

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/kaneui/CountyCityCourthouserender.jpg

So your saying this is ugly?
Awkward

Not ugly but below average. The buildings I mentioned previously are also below average. Most of the buildings at this site (http://www.worldarchitecturenews.com/index.php?fuseaction=wanappln.shownewsinpictures&page=1) are architectural marvels .

The city of Tucson considered replacing city hall way back in the 90's. The Old Pima County Courthouse IS a building marvel. Pima County was planning to move their offices from the Old Courthouse (keeping that building jewel) on an open lot closed by the Pioneer Hotel . Those government buildings I mentioned are outdated and always in need of constant maintenance. I know, I used to work there.

I don't hate Tucson. The weather is great and it's cheap to live here. I just want it fixed.

[kaneui]

At the east end of downtown, construction of Plaza Centro's Phase I has begun--a four-level, 400-space public parking garage with three stories of apartments on top, plus retail and commercial at street level.


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/kaneui/PlazaCentroconstruction11-10.jpg http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/kaneui/PlazaCentroRender4.jpg
construction progress - Nov., 2010; Phase I render (parking garage/retail/commercial/residential)
(photo: city of Tucson; render: AI Architects)

[Anqrew]

:previous: drove past Plaza Centro today and got very excited. :tup:

[Ritarancher]

Honestly the city should build the rainbow bridge

[kaneui]

With no Rio Nuevo funds available, the Friends of Tucson's Birthplace non-profit has secured a grant for nearly $15k from the State Forestry Division to plant the orchard section of the Mission Gardens, part of the proposed Tucson Origins Heritage Park west of I-10. However, additional funds are needed to bring in water and electricity for a drip irrigation system. Once completed, the four-acre gardens will interpret nearly 4,000 years of agricultural history in the Tucson area as show in the site plan below:



http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/kaneui/MissionGardenssiteplan.jpg http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/kaneui/TucsonOriginsHeritageParkaerial.jpg
Mission Gardens site plan; view from "A" Mountain of Tucson Origins Heritage Park site, with the Mission Garden's perimeter adobe wall visible in lower right
(render, photo: Friends of Tucson's Birthplace)



For more info: http://www.tucsonsbirthplace.org/, http://dot.tucsonaz.gov/projects/project.cfm?cip=663A9BB2-E468-E114-9D339C76A737EF96

[Ritarancher]

Rainbow Bridge



2 more high rises over 375 feet- both will have observation decks



More people



A supertarget in the Marketplace at the bridges



Larger Tcc



New house style that is affordable

[Butta]

Anyways, of all the cities I've been. You still can't beat San Francisco.

Agreed :tup:

[aznate27]

Anqrew, thanks for that link.

Although, Rialto, Hotel Congress and the Apts around One Fifth/MLK is worth the visit, I'm not quite sure about the Pennington, Stone and Scott Ave part. I wouldn't stroll those roads at night at this moment.

If I had the power, I'd replaced the old Pioneer Hotel, Bank of America and the Pima County Superior Court, Pima Legal Services, City Hall with a mixed of Apts/Condos/Retail . Replaced as in replaced by a wrecking ball.

City Hall and Pima County gov'ts should be housed in the 'proposed' (and ugly) new Joint City/Pima Justice Courts (Stone Ave. & Alameda St.) with one brand new high rise. I think it would be more convenient to have all those local gov't offices in one place.

By far THE worst idea on this thread in a long time! :koko: So bacically you'd reduce the skyline to almost nothing and replace it with low-rise buildings and one high-rise...SO glad you don't have that power.

[aznate27]

Not sure if anyone has posted this link yet, but kinda cool.

http://maps.tucsonaz.gov/downtown/projects.html?projID=31

[aznate27]

Here's another cool link I found. It has a 3D video fly by of the new Unisource Energy Building that is going up downtown, as well as some of the best renderings of the building I've seen so far.

http://www.tep.com/company/news/UNSbuilding/index.asp

[kaneui]

Here's another cool link I found. It has a 3D video fly by of the new Unisource Energy Building that is going up downtown, as well as some of the best renderings of the building I've seen so far.

http://www.tep.com/company/news/UNSbuilding/index.asp

Not sure if anyone has posted this link yet, but kinda cool.

http://maps.tucsonaz.gov/downtown/projects.html?projID=31


You'll find most of this in the metro Tucson project list, which is updated regularly (although the fly-by video link is from YouTube).

[acatalanb]

By far THE worst idea on this thread in a long time! :koko: So bacically you'd reduce the skyline to almost nothing and replace it with low-rise buildings and one high-rise...SO glad you don't have that power.

Replaced it with LOW-RISE buildings? Why the F*** replaced it with low rise? HELL NO!!! :hell:
Replaced it with all HIGH-RISE buildings. :skyscraper: Not just any high-rise...but architecturally appealing high-rise. :yes:

"...replace it with low-rise buildings and one high-rise" I don't know where did you get this idea of low-rise and one high rise?

[aznate27]

Replaced it with LOW-RISE buildings? Why the F*** replaced it with low rise? HELL NO!!! :hell:
Replaced it with all HIGH-RISE buildings. :skyscraper: Not just any high-rise...but architecturally appealing high-rise. :yes:

"...replace it with low-rise buildings and one high-rise" I don't know where did you get this idea of low-rise and one high rise?

Well, you said residential mixed use buildings...in Tucson, that doesn't get much higher than 4 to 6 stories since there's no market for high-rise residentials. So it sounded like tear down taller buildings for smaller ones...I'm just say'n... :shrug:

[acatalanb]

Well, you said residential mixed use buildings...in Tucson, that doesn't get much higher than 4 to 6 stories since there's no market for high-rise residentials. So it sounded like tear down taller buildings for smaller ones...I'm just say'n... :shrug:

Got it! Sorry man, I freak out to any conversation regarding decimating higher buildings in place of shorter ones :haha:

Nope, if there's a city that needs skyscrapers , it's Tucson . Nicer skyscrapers. Not bland boring white or grey square buildings. I sure hate to decimate our surrounding pristine desert, we need to build up.

[Ritarancher]

By far THE worst idea on this thread in a long time! :koko: So bacically you'd reduce the skyline to almost nothing and replace it with low-rise buildings and one high-rise...SO glad you don't have that power.

Thats what i said

[kaneui]

Although the city is worried about losing a $2M site-specific grant if they don't build a new bus station near the train depot, Councilman Kozachik and nearby business owners say that the station would be in the wrong location and worsen the already congested traffic on the east end of downtown:


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/kaneui/Busstationrelocationmap.jpg http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/kaneui/IntermodalDepot.gif
early rendering of proposed transportation center and bus station next to train depot (R)
(render: Poster Frost Mirto)


Bus-station plan causes furor
Downtown firms jolted by city effort to return Greyhound to depot area

by Rob O'Dell
Arizona Daily Star
November 8, 2010

The potential move of the Greyhound bus station back to the east end of downtown has outraged some of the area's business owners who contend the station doesn't fit the area and will cause traffic congestion. The city plans to move the bus station, which is now on a site off the Interstate 10 frontage road south of West Congress Street, because it needs to sell the land to help balance this year's budget. Because the city still has $2 million left over from a federal grant to build a multiuse transportation and bus facility next to the Historic Train Depot on North Toole Avenue, the city staff has drawn up plans to move it back to the east end of downtown permanently. For years, the station was on East Congress Street next to the Rialto Theatre.

Business owners are angry that the city is resurrecting plans to bring the bus terminal back to the area. They cite traffic congestion as the No. 1 concern, followed by the fact that they believe the parcel next to the depot should be developed for commercial uses that match the area. They mostly talk around the issue of concerns that the bus station could bring undesirable people to the area, although Maynards Market and Kitchen owner Richard Oseran said there could be an increase in crime if the station moves in. "It's a terrible idea," said Oseran, whose business is in the depot. "It just doesn't make sense at all." Oseran said the area is already congested, and the buses and the traffic to and from the terminal will make the situation worse, affecting business inside the train depot, along with events on the depot's patio. John Hudak, partner and publisher of Madden Media, said the station will bring extra traffic to an already crowded area, adding that the site would be better used for commercial development. He said the bus station should stay near the freeway, and the city should think about moving more of the Ronstadt Transit Center traffic to that area as well. "There are better and higher uses for that property other than a Greyhound station," Hudak said of the site next to the depot. "It's not a good idea. We're upset about it."

Several years ago, the city planned to build an $18 million combined Greyhound bus terminal and city transportation office building at the site next to the depot. It canceled the plan after the funding dried up, although not before it secured a $2 million grant from the federal government to build a multiuse transportation center on the site. Hudak said the idea of a multiuse transportation center next to the depot is an idea from the 1980s, and not the 21st century. Oseran said that at least the old plans called for security and for offices to be housed on the parking lot just northwest of the train depot. The new plan calls for the buses to be on what is now the depot parking lot, and for the ticket counter and offices to be inside the depot, which Oseran said will crowd out space for patrons of the depot. The $2 million is site-specific and can't be used at another location, said city Transportation Director Jim Glock. There's no penalty for not using the money, but a memo from City Manager Mike Letcher said the ability of the city to get future federal grants could be hampered if the city purposely forfeited the federal grant. Glock said he will do whatever the City Council tells him to do when it addresses the issue during a meeting on Nov. 23.

Councilman Steve Kozachik agreed with the businessmen in the area, saying, "I don't think that site makes any sense." He said there is no urgency in moving the Greyhound station, because the city might not get a good enough offer on the freeway site to make it worthwhile to sell it, although the city would then need another $5 million to $8 million to balance its budget. Kozachik said the "free" federal money argument doesn't sway him, because he said in the end it's still taxpayer money. He said he doesn't mind giving back the grant. "It doesn't mean we pick the site just because it's federal dollars," Kozachik said. "It's taxpayer dollars." Councilwoman Regina Romero said she's open to different options for the Greyhound terminal, and said that she will defer somewhat to Kozachik because the train depot is in his ward. The only real sticking point could be if there is a financial penalty for not using the grant money. "I'm open, but if there are financial consequences, it's going to be a much more difficult decision," Romero said. "We're not in a situation where the city of Tucson can take financial hits right now."