CHICAGO | Mandarin Oriental | 845 FT / 256 M | 61 FLOORS | NEVER BUILT

[Steely Dan]

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/5796/mandarin1mq.jpg




Mandarin Oriental hotel will check in
Site near Millennium; Ritz-Carlton for sale

By Thomas A. Corfman
Tribune staff reporter
Published June 8, 2005

A venture that includes construction executive Gerard Kenny said Tuesday that it has a deal for a posh Mandarin Oriental hotel on a site near Millennium Park, part of a proposed 90-story tower that also will include luxury condominiums.

Meanwhile, the owner of the Ritz-Carlton at Water Tower Place said it would put up for sale the 435-room property, one of Chicago's best-known, high-end hotels.

The two deals reflect the renewed attention that investors are giving to a property sector that some experts say can offer higher returns than other real estate investments, such as office buildings or apartment complexes.

"Hotels are the place to be right now," said Arthur Buser, managing director of Jones Lang LaSalle Hotels, a unit of the Chicago-based real estate firm with the same name. "Your initial yield ends up to be double digits out of the box, and there is no other real estate you can do that with," he said.

The $550 million Mandarin Oriental project will be located at Lake and Stetson Streets, but it will have an address of 215 N. Michigan Ave. because the site is part of the Illinois Center office complex.

At 887 feet, the skyscraper is expected to be the city's seventh-tallest tower when it is completed in 2008.*

Hong Kong-based Mandarin Oriental International Ltd. has been looking for a Chicago property for at least eight years.

The project gives Mandarin an opportunity to "further strengthen our brand," said Edouard Ettedgui, chief executive of Mandarin, which has 21 hotels worldwide--six of them in the U.S.--and plans to open a Boston property in 2007.

A partnership controlled by Kenny acquired the vacant site in 1998, paying what seems now like a bargain price of $4.4 million, according to property records.

But what looked at the time like a quick development deal dragged on, the result of several factors, including the downturn in hotel development after Sept. 11, 2001.

"The opening of Millennium Park made this thing go," said Kenny, a director with Kenny Construction Co., who spends most of his time on real estate development.

Generally low profile, Kenny was thrown into the spotlight in 1992, when his Wheeling-based firm managed the repair project for the Loop flood. His brother James, a former executive with the firm and a Republican fundraiser, was named ambassador to Ireland in 2003 by President Bush.

The partnership is contributing the 44,000-square-foot site to a joint venture that includes Frank Leo, an investor, developer and former New York printing company owner, said Kenny, whose firm will manage the construction.

The 1.2 million-square-foot project will include 300 condos and 250 hotel-condo units. An additional 50 condos, to be called Mandarin Oriental residences, will have the full benefit of the amenities of the hotel. The chain is known for its high level of service.

A marketing firm has not yet been named, and Kenny acknowledges that sales will be key to arranging financing.

"The Mandarin name brings such a special presence to Chicago," he said.

Under the hotel-condo concept, rooms are sold as condominiums to private buyers, who allow the hotel to rent them out when the owners are not using them.

Kenny may hope the Mandarin project fares better than another hotel deal his firm was involved in, the Renaissance Hotel near O'Hare International Airport.

The 362-room hotel was completed during the downturn in hotel business and was hurt by partnership disputes.

The property was sold last year at a substantial discount to its announced $57 million cost.

"There's no comparison whatsoever," Kenny said.

As one of the city's newest luxury hotels moves forward, one of its most prominent hotels is going on the market.

Eastdil Realty Co. has been hired to market the Ritz-Carlton, said Patrick Meara, a senior vice president with Chicago-based JMB Realty Corp., which co-owns the hotel with Toronto-based Four Seasons Hotels Inc.

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* assuming that trump and waterview are both built, this tower would actually stand as chicago's 9th tallest, if built to its current 887' height.

[trvlr70]

This is great news. I was also shocked that it wasn't in the Waterview tower. Can someone post a map of the location for me?

[Steely Dan]

^ here you go, the red rectangle is the site:

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/554/6324mandarin_site.jpg

[Xeelee]

cool

[Pandemonious]

Awesome, right next to Prudential and AON!! Chicago RULES.

[BVictor1]

Well, I must say, that when the snipped of information was posted yesterday in the Waterview Tower thread I got curious. So I decided to send an email to the U.S Offices of Mandarin Oriental Hotels. I must say, that if the service and response time to guests is as quick and efficient as to which they replied to my email, the hotel guests will be quite pleased...

Below if the coorispondents between my self and a representative of the hotel group...

THE EMAIL I SENT

To Ms. Lou Hammond, or to whom it may concern,

My name is Butler Adams, and I am an architecture student in Chicago. I
have been following a project in Chicago called Waterview Tower, which
is a 89-story building that will have a proposed condo/hotel on several
floors.

Earlier today I came across this small news clip:

Mandarin Oriental To Manage New Chicago Hotel, Residences
HONG KONG (Dow Jones)--Mandarin Oriental Hotel Group said Tuesday it will manage a new 250-room hotel and 50 residences in Chicago. Mandarin Oriental, 75%-owned by Singapore-listed Jardine Strategic Holdings Ltd. (J37.SG), said the hotel and residences are scheduled to open in early 2008. Mandarin Oriental, Chicago will occupy 15 floors of a new 90-storey tower. The Residences at Mandarin Oriental, Chicago, will be located above the hotel with units ranging from 1,000 to 3,000 square feet.

Mandarin Oriental operates 21 hotels worldwide.

Here is the link (http://sg.biz.yahoo.com/050607/15/3sv4n.html)


I was wondering if there is any way for you to confirm that Mandarin
Oriental will be coming to Chicago? I know that the Mandarin Oriental Hotel Group has been making an attempt to enter the Chicago market for almost a decade.

If it's true that Mandarin Oriental Hotels will be apart of Waterview
Tower in Chicago, can you tell me about the project (hotel operators
perspective), and what you expect to accomplish here in Chicago?

I do hope to hear back from someone on this matter.

Butler V. Adams
Architecture Student

THE RESPONSE

Information below:
MANDARIN ORIENTAL ANNOUNCES NEW LUXURY HOTEL
AND RESIDENCES IN CHICAGO


HONG KONG, June 7, 2005 - Mandarin Oriental Hotel Group has announced that it will manage a new 250-room luxury hotel and 50 branded residences which are planned to open in Chicago in early 2008. The project provides the Group with a unique opportunity to establish its luxury brand in another important American city.
Mandarin Oriental, Chicago will occupy 15 floors of a new 90-storey tower which will be an exclusive mixed-use development in Chicago's growing Millennium Park neighborhood. In addition to the hotel and its luxury residences, the new 1.2 million-square-foot development will feature a further 300 deluxe condominiums as well as upscale retail shops.
The project is ideally located for Chicago's world-class cultural attractions, shopping, dining and entertainment facilities. It is adjacent to Millennium Park, the city's renowned centre for art, music, architecture and landscape design, featuring the most sophisticated outdoor concert venue of its kind in the United States, designed by Frank Gehry. Located at 215 North Michigan Avenue, the hotel is also a short walk from the Magnificent Mile Shopping District and is exceptionally placed for easy access to McCormick Place, the largest convention facility in America. Chicago's vast Pedway system is accessible directly from the development, which allows convenient covered walkways to the city's financial district.
Mandarin Oriental, Chicago will be a showcase of innovative, contemporary design, combining a reflection of the Group's oriental heritage with a strong sense of place. The 200 oversized guestrooms and 50 suites will be among the most spacious accommodations in the city, with views of Lake Michigan to the north and east, Millennium Park to the south, and Chicago's celebrated cityscape to the west. The finest entertainment and technology systems will also be a prominent in-room feature.
An array of dining choices will be offered at the hotel's 80-seat signature restaurant, an all-day dining venue, spa café, stylish bar, lobby lounge and Cake Shop - Chicago's version of the legendary "Mandarin Cake Shop" at the flagship Mandarin Oriental in Hong Kong.
The Spa at Mandarin Oriental, Chicago will create an unprecedented relaxation experience within a vibrant urban setting. The 20,000-square-foot facility will feature 14 treatment rooms, with two VIP couples suites, state-of-the-art heat and water treatments, including a Hamam for men and Rasul for women, as well as a spa café offering tailor-made, healthy cuisine. A dedicated pilates and yoga studio will complement the fully-equipped fitness facility. Reflecting the Group's Asian spa expertise in design and service, this facility will offer among the most comprehensive range of wellness, beauty and massage treatments in the Chicago area, with holistic signature treatments created exclusively by Mandarin Oriental.
The hotel will also offer exceptional amenities to business travelers, including the latest in-room technology as well as a full-service business centre. Ample meeting and function space, with a 10,000-square-foot ballroom, and four additional private meeting rooms equipped with state-of-the-art technology will also be featured.
The Residences at Mandarin Oriental, Chicago will be located above the hotel with units ranging from 1,000 to 3,000 square-feet. As with all Residences at Mandarin Oriental, owners will be treated as permanent guests of the hotel and will enjoy exclusive access to the exceptional services and amenities provided on property.
"We are delighted to be opening a new hotel in the celebrated city of Chicago. This project represents a wonderful opportunity for Mandarin Oriental to further strengthen our brand in significant business and leisure destinations worldwide," said Edouard Ettedgui, Group Chief Executive of Mandarin Oriental. "We look forward to bringing Mandarin Oriental's renowned levels of hospitality to this vibrant new development and its remarkable location. We certainly support Mayor Daley's mission for the area's success."
"We are excited about the addition of Mandarin Oriental to the city of Chicago. The development only serves to further enhance the amenities and visitor attractions in and around Millennium Park," said Mayor Richard M. Daley.
The project is being developed by Illinois Center Development, LLC (ICDG), a private investment partnership formed by the development team of Frank Leo and Gerard Kenny of Chicago, Illinois. Mr. Kenny's firm, Kenny Construction Company, will be leading construction of the overall project. The award-winning firm of Solomon Cordwell Buenz (SCB) will be lead architect coordinating with Patrick Danan of ICDG.
"Our project will play an important role in the continuing renaissance of the area surrounding Millennium Park. The development promises to be a new city icon and we are very pleased to be working with Mandarin Oriental to create a unique luxury experience in Chicago," said Frank Leo, a principal of Illinois Center Development, LLC.
Chicago boasts many tourist attractions, including the finest shopping along Michigan Avenue, fine dining and myriad cultural venues, all within walking distance of the new project. Transportation to and from this important Midwestern U.S. city is among the most accessible in the world; Chicago's O'Hare Airport handles more than 55,000 domestic flights and 7,000 international flights a month - with more passengers than any other international airport.
Mandarin Oriental Hotel Group is the award-winning owner and operator of some of the world's most prestigious hotels and resorts, currently operating 21 luxury hotels with a further six under development in Hong Kong and Tokyo (opening 2005), Prague and Riviera Maya, Mexico (2006), Boston (2007) and Chicago (2008). In total, Mandarin Oriental now operates, or has under development, approximately 8,000 rooms in 14 countries with 12 hotels in Asia, ten in The Americas and five in Europe.
# # #

[Pandemonious]

Sweet. SCB also designed 340 OTP, 1255 S Michigan, and the Heritage @MP. I can't wait to see the design. Hopefully it blows all the other ones away... since they are promising for it to be "a new city icon."

[trvlr70]

^ here you go, the red rectangle is the site:

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/554/6324mandarin_site.jpg Thanaks, Dan!

[Fabb]

90 stories and only 887 ft ?
It'd better be really good looking.

[Steely Dan]

alright, SCB. weren't they behind that old boulevard tower design for that piece of land? that was an 80 something story tower, right? maybe there going go with that design for this project. it was an interesting design. does anyone still have a rendering of it that they can repost?

SCB actually excites me now. i like the heritage, i LOVE 340 on the park, and i'm super-intrigued by the legacy proposal. it'll be interesting to see what they come up with here.

[Norsider]

Along with Calatrava, this is going to put one hell of a dent in the skyline. Let's hope it looks nice.

[Tom In Chicago]

^let's not forget the Jeweler's Row building. . . oh I know. . . it's only a mere 72 stories. . . so easy to forget something of that scale. . .

[Pandemonious]

Aren't they also behind the new office towers proposed for right along the kennedy expressway near PT?

[Pandemonious]

Yep.

http://63.240.68.115/FirmFiles/95/images/north%5B1%5D%2Ejpg

645 W Madison

SCB has a lot of solid designs. I am even more excited about this project now. :)

[VivaLFuego]

Too bad an 887' tower will be almost totally obscured from view (from the south, i.e. grant/millenium park and the south side) by 2PRU, a 1000 footer that lays in the shadow of aon, at over 1100'. Only in Chicago...

[chickenbone]

Too bad an 887' tower will be almost totally obscured from view (from the south, i.e. grant/millenium park and the south side) by 2PRU, a 1000 footer that lays in the shadow of aon, at over 1100'. Only in Chicago...

I'm glad somebody finally brought this up. Doesn't anybody else think this is a terrible location for this building? You won't even be able to see it from the south, and if you're inside the building you won't have much of a view. Plus, that area doesn't get a whole lot of foot traffic, yet they're planning on including upscale retail? Who's gonna shop there, besides the hotel guests? And even they will probably go further north up Michigan Ave to shop.

Don't get me wrong, I'm really excited about the possibility of a new 90 story building, but I just think the location is bad. Not sure where else I'd put it though. Block 37 perhaps? :laugh:

[NYguy]

90 stories and only 887 ft ?
It'd better be really good looking.

That caught my attention also. Maybe it'll top 900 ft..

[Steely Dan]

^ as tom explained in the boom rundown thread, this plot of land is actually a hole in the 3 level street network of illinois center. the number of stories that are actually above the top most street level may only be 85 or so. the height of 887' is probably taken from the top street level, whereas the number of stories listed is probably taken from grade, which is 50' below "street level".

as for the location, i thinks it's fine. no it won't be terribly high-profile from grant park, but there are 3 other cardinal dirtections to consider.

[HK Chicago]

alright, SCB. weren't they behind that old boulevard tower design for that piece of land? that was an 80 something story tower, right? maybe there going go with that design for this project

That design looks like it was refined into 340 OTP, It used the same materials and had the same key features. I'd expect them to do something different here... glad to see they got the work, they're a solid 8/10 firm.

[Steely Dan]

^ i wish that someone had a rendering of the boulevard east projet that they could post, because the way i'm remembering it, that proposal was actually quite different from the 340 on the park project. boulevard east had A LOT of very tightly spaced horizontal lines, and it also had a set-back or two, as opposed to 340's more monolithic form.

was anyone smart enough to save those boulevard east renderings from a couple years ago? search through your files. i just searched mine, but i don't have 'em anywhere.

[HK Chicago]

^ not on my primary machine, i'll look tomorrow

it definitely had a continuous vertical element at the NE corner, and I'm pretty sure the sections were horizontally divided at about the same proportion as 340 OTP. Same cladding/material/color scheme too IIRC.

The sizes and shapes are different, but the design motif were related (similar to SCB B37=>Heritage). Historically SCB doesn't reuse design "concepts", unlike LLG, D+P, MJ, etc.

[Jaroslaw]

I'll post those renderings eventually but someone else will beat me to it likely. Ironically, as I recall, they looked a bit like Waterview Tower.

Now, unless we assume that the HK blokes are total defectives, I think this thread is premature. I can't think of a worse site downtown to build. To the S, total obstruction from 2 Pru. To the W and N, the black walls of Illinois Center. To the E, the Park Millenium, and eventually 2 x 70 at Lakeshore East. You'd have to get forty stories up to get any views of anything. Even the 65 E. Huron site was better. Not to mention that it's dead at street level, not too close to the loop, not close to River North 9compared to other plays like the Grand Pier site).

The only things I can think of here are: 1. The big boys still need to go and take a look in person. 2. They're sending a signal to Teng and / or Mills. 3. They're hoping for the convention marktet. #2 is the only likely one.

[SSLL]

Looks good. How about a Shangri-La too?

[trvlr70]

In that location, none of the hotel rooms will have any kind of decent view. They only go up to floor 15. Yeah, I agree, I think a tall building is wasted on such a location, but we could be wrong. I suppose that piece of land was pretty cheap. However, I think it will help that part of town be a little more exciting, because it is a snore right now.

[Chicago3rd]

^^
The Four Seasons two blocks away has restricted views now. Soon it too will be enclosed. And the Hyatt Regency...all but the riverside tend to be open to views. And they both tend to do great business.

[Steely Dan]

well, Dan K. was kind enough to email me those old boulevard east towers renderings from SCB, so here they are:

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/554/6324boulevard_east_towers_1.jpg http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/554/6324boulevard_east_towers_2.jpg http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/554/6324boulevard_east_towers_3.jpg

[dvidler]

That looks almost exactly like the Heritage to me. Just different colors. I expect something different

[Steely Dan]

^ dude, don't get confused, the renderings i posted ARE NOT THE RENDERINGS FOR THIS PROPOSAL. they are from an older SCB proposal for the same piece of land from a couple years ago. SCB may be updating this design or they could just as easily design a whole new scheme for the property.

right now, we don't know anything, so don't assume that those old boulevard east renderings have any bearing on reality, i just wanted to see them again to get an idea what SCB had in mind for the site on their first go round several years ago.

[trvlr70]

^^
The Four Seasons two blocks away has restricted views now. Soon it too will be enclosed. And the Hyatt Regency...all but the riverside tend to be open to views. And they both tend to do great business. Huh? The Four Season is in 900 N. Michigan Av. wherer Bloomingdales in located. Do you mean the Fairmont?

[dvidler]

No, I understand I was just stating my opinion on that design.

[Steely Dan]

^ oh, ok, cool. :)

[Chicago3rd]

^^
The Four Seasons two blocks away has restricted views now. Soon it too will be enclosed. And the Hyatt Regency...all but the riverside tend to be open to views. And they both tend to do great business. Huh? The Four Season is in 900 N. Michigan Av. wherer Bloomingdales in located. Do you mean the Fairmont?

Yeah...lol...Fairmont. Thanks!

[HK Chicago]

so don't assume that those old boulevard east renderings have any bearing on reality

They won't, just check 29 S Wabash to see that SCB comes to the plate with something new each time. They do refine and borrow from previous unused designs. Those Blvd East renderings are as I remembered, and I'd say it's the parent concept of 340 OTP.

I wasn't trying to convey that they were the exact same, but they share a design concept, and since 340 OTP is final product it is much more refined.

That looks almost exactly like the Heritage to me.

To see the Heritage's parent concept check out the SCB Block 37 tower, the version with the walled in Lord & Taylor store. We all had renderings from Crain's a few years back.

[jcchii]

I realize that's not the rendering, but how tall is the tower in that rendering, just for reference?

[HK Chicago]

^well, 2 Pru is what, 995' or something? I believe the world's tallest not over 1000'.

I'd say Blvd East is 1000' to spire, 850' for the tower.

[Chase Unperson]

^I hope they build the MOI 997 feet to take over the new world's tallest less than 1000 feet!

[detroitismylove]

OH
MY
GOD

Chicago rocks! :)

[BVictor1]

I sent another email to MOH and I got this response...

Below is the email coorespondande.

To: Katie McCall
Subject: Re: RE: Possible Chicago Location for your hotels...

Ms. McCall-

I wanted to thank you very much about the press release you sent to me. It was very helpful. I can't wait to see this tower get built.
There is so much happening here in Chicago in terms of architecture and construction right now, and it's fascinating watching the skyline change before my eyes.

I was wondering, is there a rendering of the tower available? I'd like to see how the design looks and what the quality of the architecture is. I have faith in Solomon Cordwell Buenz & Associates. They've been doing some wonderful designs lately.

Another question that I have, is when does Mandarin Oriental plan for construction to begin?

One thing I find interesting is the location of this project. The building is going to be build at the corner of Lake and Stetson, and I don't know if you are familiar with Chicago, but in that area you have the the city's 2nd and 5th tallest, and the Mandarin Tower will be somewhat hidden in the skyline. What was the reason for the choice of this location?

I hope that you can answer some of these questions, and I do hope to hear back from you.

Butler V. Adams
Architecture Student

THE RESPONSE


Dear Butler,
At this time, there is not a rendering available. Answers to your other questions are below.

* When will Mandarin Oriental, Chicago open?
Mandarin Oriental, Chicago is scheduled to open in early 2008.

* Why Chicago?

Chicago is clearly another "brand-defining" world city and is the second largest financial center in the US. Chicago is a key destination for US and global business travelers, and has a thriving leisure market with museums, shopping, fine dining and many cultural and tourist attractions. Transportation to and from this important Midwestern U.S. city is among the most accessible in the world; Chicago's O'Hare Airport handles more than 55,000 domestic flights and 7,000 international flights a month - with more passengers than any other international airport.

§ As an important world city, Chicago can support a true luxury hotel such as Mandarin Oriental and we will be ale to command excellent average rates.


* Why did MOHG pick the Millennium Park area?

The Millennium Park area offers a remarkable location in the heart of Chicago's growing business district, close to the Financial District, as well as shopping along the Magnificent Mile, amongst other key attractions.

Millennium Park itself is an exciting new icon for the city of Chicago, with world-class art, music, stunning architecture and landscape design, as well as the most sophisticated outdoor concert venue of its kind in the United States, designed by renowned American architect, Frank Gehry.

The hotel is also ideally placed for easy access to McCormick Place, the largest convention facility in America. The area is also serviced by a well-developed transport infrastructure, including direct Pedway access from the development. The hotel is part of a 1.2 million square-foot mixed-use development, with deluxe condominiums as well as upscale retail shops within the building.


* Who are your partners?
The project is being developed by Illinois Center Development, LLC (ICDG), a private investment partnership formed by the development team of Frank Leo and Gerard Kenny of Chicago, Illinois. Mr. Kenny's firm Kenny Construction Company will be leading construction of the overall project.

* Who are the architects, and interior designers?
The award-winning firm of Solomon Cordwell Buenz (SCB) will be lead architect coordinating with Patrick Danan of ICDG. The interior design firm will be appointed shortly.

I guess that they know what they want. I will try to kee in contact with her guys to try to obtain a rendering when one is available.

[Jaroslaw]

So it's a convention play... Given the location, I'm *against.* But assuming that they need to sell a lot of condos before breaking ground, I hope that this project will share the fate of 65 E. Huron. :)

[HK Chicago]

Given the location, I'm *against.*

hmm, any reason why? All the hotels east of Michigan are filled with conventioners, and 2 of them are hotel/convention centers themselves. It'll also be the 3rd tallest in the immediate vacinity. Just asking, I'm not seeing anything bad w/this project yet.

[VivaLFuego]

It is well located to the randolph/south water street station that goes straight to Mccormick place, so in that regard the location isn't bad. But the building seems like architectural overkill given the location. A small portion of rooms will have any view at all of millenium park, and it will be quite obstructed. It is walking distance to michigan ave. and state st, though.

but hey, its their money, and i'm sure it'll look good from the other angles

[Chicago3rd]

Location Location Location...it ain't about the view. As noted...in the letter it is close to Mag Mile, Millenium Park, 2 blocks from the El, State Street.... and right off the no-stop buses to the Convention Center. Location Location Location.

[Tom In Chicago]

^Besides location. . . they can just change the building orientation 45 degrees off center and they'll have great views. . . or at the very least acceptible views given the tight program. . .

[Jaroslaw]

The location is only really good for the conventioneers and for MP, but whatever, I don't have anything on the back of this pony. But it is the most obstructed development site in Chicago, as far as I can see. And if we're getting a 1,000-footer or so, I'd rather see it where it can make some impact.


http://home.uchicago.edu/~jaroslaw/140605r1.JPG

[dvidler]

I have been in the Park Millennium(across the street) numerous times and from the west side of the 26th floor the views are good. You are blocked from some of the view because of the Prudential and AON but you can see the Sears Tower and most of Millennioum park. To the south you can see the Hancock and the River. To the West you can get a direct shot down the river. Which is a great scene during sun set.

Yes, they could theoretically put the building somewhere else but lets not forget they purchased that lot for only 4 million a few years ago. I am sure the property itself is worth a lot more now.

[Chicago3rd]

The location is only really good for the conventioneers and for MP, but whatever, I don't have anything on the back of this pony. But it is the most obstructed development site in Chicago, as far as I can see. And if we're getting a 1,000-footer or so, I'd rather see it where it can make some impact.


http://home.uchicago.edu/~jaroslaw/140605r1.JPG

2 blocks from Marshall Fields and Block 37. 2 Blocks from Chicago Theater and Oriental Palace, 3 Blocks from the start of Mag Mile, 3 blocks to the Goodman, 3 blocks to the lake, 2 blocks to the Art Institute, 1 block from the Cultural Center, 1 Block from Block 37 Arts Group.

The hotel...is in business to fill the rooms. Not build a building where it looks good.

Guess my point about this is. It is fine to say one is disappointed with the location because it will detract from the impact of the building....but to keep arguing that it is basically not in a good area...is not very broad minded.

[dvidler]

And the building will affect the skyline. The only point where it will not affect the skyline is looking directly north in front of the Prudential

[Jaroslaw]

Whatever the **** "broad-minded" is, I can properly count the number of blocks from this location to Field's. And to repeat, the immediate area is mere dead office towers. But I realize that most people here are hopeless fanatics who have never seen a skyscraper proposal they didn't like.

[Chicago3rd]

Far be it for the professionals (not me) to know where to put a hotel. Just as long as it is pretty...functionality seems to mean little to some on the forum.

Note....Fairmont and Hard Rock Hotel all in the same area. They all must be wrong?

[trvlr70]

I agree with some of the former posters. I think it is an odd location for such a hotel. The rest of Chicago's top hotels have very pretigious addresses on N. Michigan Ave, E. Lake Shore Drive, or other Gold Coast locations. I used to work out at the gym across the street and I can attest that the area has almost no street life or vitality after dusk. Clients where I used to work did not like staying at the Fairmont because of the location. Out-of-towners want to be able to step outside the hotel's front door and have numerous dining, shopping, and entertainment options. Has Milenium Park really done that much to change the character of th neighborhood? If I lived in Lakeshore East, I'd be stoked b/c I could imagine the hotel helping the area by encouraging new restaurants, retail, etc..

[dvidler]

I personally find this a silly debate. Mandarin Oriental is a very successful and prestigous chain of hotels. I think if they didnt feel the location would work they wouldnt have done this deal. I'll trust their opinion over any of ours.

What the hotel will do is bring more action to that area and hopefully a very solid architectual building.

[Chicago3rd]

Perhaps...like the mayors office..these hotels see the potential for this portion of Michigan Avenue. One of the biggest reasons for Millenium Park was to jump start this exact area. Just in the 8 years I have lived here...that area has improved a lot. Glad we have business people and political leaders who see potential in areas that need some help. Lots and lots of positive changes happening there. With the development along the Central Michigan Avenue and east along the river and randolph...it his hard for me to comprehend anyone believing the area isn't improving......

FAirmont
Hyatt Regency
Swiss Hotel
Hard Rock Hotel

Are they all wrong?

[Pandemonious]

I totally agree.

I also think the blocked views are less important to the Mandarin Oriental than the prime location, as well as the fact that the MO is a hotel heavily focused on customer service and pampering.

[Jaroslaw]

Chicago3rd, accuracy is not your strong point, as I suggested regarding your idea that the MO site is two blocks away from Field's. Now you compare this MO to the Swissotel, the Regency, and the Fairmont; the first two are on the river, and the third had direct lake views until quite recently. What does this comparison have to do with my central point, that there are no views at the MO site? Then you call the site "this portion of Michigan Avenue." I think no one would confuse it with Mich, even S. of the river Mich. Please refer to my google photo.

dvidler, it's specious of you to write, "I find this a silly debate," and then make an argument for why your opinion is correct. If the argument is silly... don't make arguments!

Pandemonious, you have an interesting opinion, but the facts don't seem to bear it out. The MO website mentions specifically the views of the NY hotel, to take one example, which is in the Time Warner Center. (The other MO NY, on the upper E. side, touts the urban setting. Can't make that case here, as trvl pointed out.) As I mentioned, you get some views, but not until you're some 40F above ground. Directly to the north and west you have the Illinois Center, 30-32 office floors, to the S you have two of Chicago's tallest buildings, and to the E you will have 2 x 70 at LSE.

Trvl makes the only arguments based on facts, not opinions. Thank you.

[dvidler]

My initial opinion on the potential views of this project is that although the views will not be perfect there will be views. I base this on being in the 26th floor of the Park Millennium across the street over looking the hole in to which this will be built. From that location I can see the Chicago River to the West, the Millennium Park to the South, and the Sears Tower to the Southwest.

But my last statement was true, and not specious as you say, because the MO company probably would know better than any of us on how to operate a hotel. And not only how to operate a hotel but where to put one. So we can argue all day and night about how good the views will be but its kind of silly to base the success of this hotel on the views from a building that doesnt exist.

[Chicago3rd]

Sounds like a bitch fight to me...you win.

[volguus zildrohar]

So how many more skyscrapers does Chicago need?

[bayrider]

^ thats like asking 'why did the chicken cross the road?' no one will ever know... oh wait, thats like asking which came first... the chicken of the egg

[ChgoLvr83]

^^ We only need a few more. I mean lets not be greedy. :)

And ditto to dvidler. Completely agree.

[Steely Dan]

quite the little hissy fit we had today.

an organization like MO wouldn't be interested in this site if they didn't think they could make a go of it.

and that's the only FACT that matters.

[Jaroslaw]

Chicago is the only FACT that matters.

(Nobody makes it out alive today. :) )

[HK Chicago]

damn, I regret starting this one off, let's keep this up to our usual gold standard please...

Illinois Center is a very open area that services the current buildings (offices, hotels, apts, condos) extremely well, and it can handle this development. As for skyline effect... there's 2 good angles where TTC and Aon block eachother out but I've never heard anyone complain ;) what's the point again?

[Chase Unperson]

Seriously. I doubt the devlopers give a flying fuck what the building looks like in the skyline. All they care about is the bottom line. ANd if the MO wants to open up a ultra classy hotel in a nontraditional area for aforementioned hotels, more power to them.

That area is great and the guests should have an impressive stay. The only question mark is any potential high end retail at the base of the hotel, but who knows, between LSE and Mil Park things could be bustling there by the time it is done.

[Jaroslaw]

Jeez, what's wrong with a little argument?

"What's the point again?" Aon and TTC are several blocks away.

I've been to this neighborhood several times, and it's a stretch to hope that "things could be bustling" there without some major reconfigurations...

Thanks to some hard hats around here, I've got a new acronym, the sheep's "BAAA." Build Absolutely Anything Anywhere! This goes together with the tendency to overlook the city's organic wholeness and shape, its dimension as a "Gesamtkunst."

[Jasonhouse]

Hopefully it blows all the other ones away... since they are promising for it to be "a new city icon."

That will be tough at that site, visually speaking, since it will be so close to two towers which will be taller than it. This tower will be shrouded from view when coming up Michigan Ave, and even from most vistas in Millenium and Grant parks.


[edit] yeah, like others have already said


And I agree with Jaroslaw... Even with the other hotel right down the street (a Hyatt?), that particular area is quite devoid of foot traffic. Most buildings around there are newer, single use towers with no storefronts. And that one tunnel basically cuts this area off from the park.

[Chase Unperson]

No it will be shrouded if it forms a line with 2pru and aon and whever you are stading., otherwise it is fine.

CMON let's root for this building as well and the 90 floor waterview and this outta nowhere 80 floor LSE building

[Jasonhouse]

^Sorry, but I don't "root" for things, just for the hell of it. I'm realistic, not a booster.

And btw, I doubt this area will be totally dead for all that long... Isn't the LSE planned community going up just to the east of this area? I'm sure adding several thousand residents into the mix will change things a bit.

[HK Chicago]

"What's the point again?" Aon and TTC are several blocks away.

I was questioning what's the point of discussing skyline angles, and brought up the example where Aon/TTC and 2Pru/MO both share pedestrian sightlines where they block eachother out.

I guess you'd classify me as a BAAA and I'd fight 100% against that label. I stated when I started this talk with a question to you (also hinting to keep it intelligent, which I know at least we can do) about why you didn't like it's location... I don't know of many locations in the city that are primed, zoned, and ready for high density like this one... it's always been the plan for Illinois Center, keep the train going I say.

Of course this could all change when we see renderings, but SCB has been doing good B/B+ work lately so I'm not worried.

[Chase Unperson]

^Sorry, but I don't "root" for things, just for the hell of it. I'm realistic, not a booster.

And btw, I doubt this area will be totally dead for all that long... Isn't the LSE planned community going up just to the east of this area? I'm sure adding several thousand residents into the mix will change things a bit.

Jeez so uptight.

Don't boost. Just wish it well and hope.

[Chicago103]

^ as tom explained in the boom rundown thread, this plot of land is actually a hole in the 3 level street network of illinois center. the number of stories that are actually above the top most street level may only be 85 or so. the height of 887' is probably taken from the top street level, whereas the number of stories listed is probably taken from grade, which is 50' below "street level".

as for the location, i thinks it's fine. no it won't be terribly high-profile from grant park, but there are 3 other cardinal dirtections to consider.

Its about time they did something with that unsightly hole, I always wondered what could go there, but an eighty something story tower more than exceded my expectations. Chicago is one of the few places where reality can actually exceed your imagination :eek: . Its a long way from certain but we can only hope.

[Jaroslaw]

Its about time they did something with that unsightly hole, I always wondered what could go there...

Before the dotcom bust, this was scheduled for a "telecom hotel".

I was questioning what's the point of discussing skyline angles, and brought up the example where Aon/TTC and 2Pru/MO both share pedestrian sightlines where they block eachother out.

I guess you'd classify me as a BAAA and I'd fight 100% against that label. I stated when I started this talk with a question to you (also hinting to keep it intelligent, which I know at least we can do) about why you didn't like it's location... I don't know of many locations in the city that are primed, zoned, and ready for high density like this one...

1. 2PRU is direct across the street from this site. Aon and TTC are half a mile from each other. And the only way they line up is from the lake / Grant Park, or NW somewhere... This enables me to reiterate a point: significant towers front open space. Both Aon and TTC do this. The Sears does this by creating a big plaza on a double city block. The Hancock fronts Mich, etc. And this is a principle of urban design.

2. Basically, there is not an unlimited supply of 90-story towers, even in Chicago. So if we have one coming, let's put it in a place where it looks nice all around.

3. In no other American city could some blokes come 'round to Daley and the local alderman with a 90 story building proposal, tell them, "Hey, help us find a cool spot for this," and be obliged, not kicked down the stairs. So I have faith in Chicago. :)

As the initial article says, it will all depend on condo pre-sales. We'll see.

[HK Chicago]

Thanks for the numbering... all I need is NY Guy to come in and color/bold my own posts too ;)

as a complete aside, The Sears does this by creating a big plaza on a double city block. is one of the worst tower frontages anywhere, it absolutely sucks all around, especially Franklin and Adams.

I'd love to have this thing spread out also (and hopefully the Gang tower is the king of the new bunch east of michigan), but the location has class infrastructure made for this sort of development... and it will make a significant skyline difference if built. 90 stories is a structure that can't be hidden, at worst it's like 311 (which I'd wouldn't mind if that one never got built except to break ST southern exposure up a little).

[Jaroslaw]

OK, I took out the numbers. Sorry to have invaded your personal space or whatever.

I agree that the Sears plaza sucks. Especially now. That's not the point, though. Let's keep it intelligent by staying on topic. (And 311 S Wacker also has open space on the N side.) Another example of a significant tower with frontage: Waterview...

[HK Chicago]

Sorry to have invaded your personal space or whatever. No invasion I'm happy to have no personal space over here, I was trying to be humorous hence the ;)

Let's keep it intelligent by staying on topic... that's why I started with as a complete aside... I'm just pointing this out cause you're on my "total respect for a Chicago forumer" list and it's important (to me) that you know I'm keeping perspective.

Waterview has great frontage!

[sentinel]

don't worry Volguus, even though we have better, taller and many more skyscrapers than in Philly, your thread will always have more posts:D

[Jasonhouse]

^Only because CHI's development news is split up into multiple threads, because there is so much of it...;)

[Marvel 33]

2. Basically, there is not an unlimited supply of 90-story towers, even in Chicago. So if we have one coming, let's put it in a place where it looks nice all around.

In a perfect world, that should really be the case...unfortunatelly that is not how it works and we'll just have to wait and see how the finished project turns out!

Believe me, I would love to see a 90 story tower in a more visible location...oh well!

[Jaroslaw]

don't worry Volguus, even though we have better, taller and many more skyscrapers than in Philly, your thread will always have more posts:D

I am sure some of those guys stay up late clicking and cranking up the counters. ;)

[rgolch]

don't worry Volguus, even though we have better, taller and many more skyscrapers than in Philly, your thread will always have more posts:D

I am sure some of those guys stay up late clicking and cranking up the counters. ;)

I don't know how they do it. Is there that much to talk about. They have a few interesting projects, but nothing like chicago. I guess we should not be arrogant, as we are very lucky at the moment, and this will likely not last forever. But for now, chicago rocks!

[Pandemonious]

Hopefully it blows all the other ones away... since they are promising for it to be "a new city icon."

That will be tough at that site, visually speaking, since it will be so close to two towers which will be taller than it. This tower will be shrouded from view when coming up Michigan Ave, and even from most vistas in Millenium and Grant parks.


[edit] yeah, like others have already said


And I agree with Jaroslaw... Even with the other hotel right down the street (a Hyatt?), that particular area is quite devoid of foot traffic. Most buildings around there are newer, single use towers with no storefronts. And that one tunnel basically cuts this area off from the park.


You may be right Jasonhouse, about the icon part. I certainly don't see anything bad about hoping for a high quality design though... and the architectural quality of a particular design is irrelevant to the height of buildings next to it in my opinion, that is just the nature of a city. SCB has some solid work, and this will be by far the tallest building they have yet designed... so this could be their moment to shine even more.

I also agree that this area is fairly void of foot traffic, but that is partially what is exciting about this building... with this large mixed-use tower(as you point out is rare in this area) filled with hotel and condo units it will hopefully bring more people there. It also says in the article that this building will contain upscale retail.

[dvidler]

They just put in a grocery store at Stetson and South Water which has brought a lot more foot traffic than before. The area has more foot traffic than most people think. But adding a hotel and more residential will increase that.

[Tom In Chicago]

And btw, I doubt this area will be totally dead for all that long... Isn't the LSE planned community going up just to the east of this area? I'm sure adding several thousand residents into the mix will change things a bit.

. . . you mean adding to the already several thousand residents that already live there. . .

[Jaroslaw]

It's too deterministic to think that "adding residents" will make anything happen in and of itself. A lot of Streeterville or the northern part of Gold Coast is as dense as anything, but hardly vibrant.

[Tom In Chicago]

^My point exactly. . .

[the urban politician]

^My point exactly. . .

^What adds to life isn't just people, but places to walk to.

More and more of that is being generated in these areas. That's why ground-level commercial space is so important.

[Tom In Chicago]

^Agreed. . .

[Jasonhouse]

And btw, I doubt this area will be totally dead for all that long... Isn't the LSE planned community going up just to the east of this area? I'm sure adding several thousand residents into the mix will change things a bit.

. . . you mean adding to the already several thousand residents that already live there. . .


No. I meant what I said. Adding several thousand residents to land which now sits fallow will be of significant use. At bare minimum, those newbies will have to walk through this area to get to Michigan Ave, and points west. Also, I'm of the impression that LSE will feature significant ground level storefronts... Surely that will help the whole neighborhood.

Obviously, we 're all saying the same thing, just focussing on different aspects of the broader issue.

[Jounouchi]

[edited for off topic content]

[HK Chicago]

^? Chicago is widely recognized as one of the greenest cities in the country, actually the accolades should go to Cook County too. Check out more pictures of the city and you'll find the green you're looking for.

[dabcom]

so let me get this straight, the mandarin oriental isn't going in the riverview tower?

[HK Chicago]

^nope, 2 seperate towers (assumming you mean "waterview").

[Chi-town]

so let me get this straight, the mandarin oriental isn't going in the riverview tower?
You mean Waterview Tower?

Nope, this is yet another 90-story building :D

Go Chicago, Go!

[HK Chicago]

You know what's great about this tower... I did some walking around and it'll easily be the tallest in Illinois center north of 2 Pru, so it will be significantly visible from N/E/W vantage points.

[Jasonhouse]

^It will definitely be prominent from the obs deck at the Hancock. Oh, and probably from different viewpoints on the Navy Pier.

[BVictor1]

I just spoke with John Lahey, who is Presigent of Solomon Cordwell Buenz. I was expecting to leave a voice mail, but hey, what can I say. At this time a rendering is not avaliable :( I was told that they are still in the early design phase, and it would be 1-2 months before something might be presentable.

He was unable to confirm if the height of the building was being measured from the bottom of the pit or from the upper levels of Lake and Stetson, which is where we want the measurements taken from.

He mentioned that the programming for the Mandarin Oriental was a bit different than what they expected, so some things are being worked on.

What I'll probably do is check back in with him at the end of August, and maybe something more will be available. Until then we need to be parient, (which I know is hard for some of you) and keep this thread active with questions and speculation.

[HK Chicago]

thanks for the update...

[BVictor1]

Mandarin Oriental, Chicago (Opening 2008)

Mandarin Oriental, Chicago will occupy 15 floors of a new 90-storey tower which will be an exclusive mixed-use development in Chicago’s growing Millennium Park neighbourhood, and is ideally located for Chicago’s world-class cultural attractions, shopping, dining and entertainment facilities.

The hotel will be a showcase of innovative, contemporary design, combining a reflection of the Group’s oriental heritage with a strong sense of place. The 20,000 square-foot Spa will create an unprecedented relaxation experience within a vibrant urban setting.

In addition to the 250 spacious guestrooms and suites, the property will also feature 50 luxurious branded residences and a further 300 deluxe condominiums, as well as upscale retail shops.


http://www.mandarinoriental.com/hotelsite/520/images/our_com_dev_chi.jpg

[Tom In Chicago]

^So it looks like a mix between the never-built Park Boulevard Tower and the under-construction 340 on the Park. . . I'm looking forward to seeing a higher resolution image. . .

[chickenbone]

Boooooo! Why are so many other cities around the world getting exciting, cutting edge architecture (think London, New York, Melbourne, Hong Kong, Miami, etc) while Chicago just gets hulking painted concrete structures or retreads of old designs? If that picture is the actual rendering, then this building will be no exception. Not impressed.

[Steely Dan]

^ you're gonna make sweeping architectural judgements from a postage stamp size rendering that doesn't even show the whole building? man, you must have some wicked-ass clairvoyance powers. would you mind sharing the winning numbers for tommorow's lotto drawing?