Is it time for the Northeast Avalon to become a Regional Municipality like Halifax?

[SignalHillHiker]

Is it time for the Northeast Avalon to become a Regional Municipality like Halifax?

The a-word (amalgamation) is still very much a dirty word on the Northeast Avalon, which - as you can see - is home to fully half of our province's 10 largest municipalities (St. John's, Mount Pearl, Conception Bay South, Paradise, and Torbay):

http://i48.tinypic.com/2zolkyq.jpg

In my opinion, the fact the City of St. John's and its suburbs are separate communities is having an extremely negative impact.

Each suburban city and town is rushing to cash in on our construction/population boom by erecting as many cookie cutter subdivisions of single-family, detached homes as they possibly can.

We are, as far as regional and urban planning goes, clearly in a race to the bottom.

Do you share this view?

If so, what do you feel would be an appropriate solution?

I'm especially curious if you believe we should follow Halifax's lead.

For the most part, I think we should. While a Regional Municipality is not perfect, it clearly leads to more regional cooperation and better regional planning than we have been able thus far to achieve here.

However, I think calling it the HRM instead of the City of Halifax was an unnecessary compromise meant to appease the unreasonable. I would still want ours to be called the City of St. John's, comprised of Wards.

What do you think?

[PoscStudent]

No.

[jeddy1989]

I don't think this will happen unless the provincial government forces it and most of the votes come from this region so I don't know if they will ..

even if some sort of NEA higher council or committee is formed to tackle specific issues such as overall development patterns, transportation, garbage collection, water services etc.

I think something along those lines with representatives from each municipality is more likely (even if it's more expensive)

Even if we could amalgamate some of the other municipalities ... just to reduce the number of municipalities

[SignalHillHiker]

:previous:

That suggestion has come up several times in other discussions here and I like it as well, at least as an interim step. Say... amalgamating Mount Pearl and Paradise to start.

Maybe CBS and Portugal Cove-St. Phillip's?

Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove and Torbay?

[jeddy1989]

:previous:

That suggestion has come up several times in other discussions here and I like it as well, at least as an interim step. Say... amalgamating Mount Pearl and Paradise to start.

Maybe CBS and Portugal Cove-St. Phillip's?

Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove and Torbay?

it would still be a tough sell

each municipality is quite head strong however I think Mount Pearl and Paradise would be more keen on each other .. St. Philip's Portugal cove .. they are already an amalgamated community and still don't really get along and the council there is nutzo Mcgee

it's funny though because most of these communities have already amalgamated .. imagine if we still had all the original municipalities ..

St. John's
The Goulds
Kilbride
Pouch Cove
Bauline
Torbay
Flat Rock
Middle Cove
Outer Cove
Logy Bay
Mount Pearl
Paradise
St. Thomas
St. Philip's
Portugal Cove
Manuals
Topsail
Chamberlains
Long Pond
Foxtrap
Kelligrews
Upper Gullies
Seal Cove
Petty Harbour


I'm sure I'm forgetting some former municipalities .. but you can see why it's so fractured .. it comes from many former towns

[SignalHillHiker]

I don't even know where St. Thomas is, ha! Is that part of Paradise?

[jeddy1989]

I don't even know where St. Thomas is, ha! Is that part of Paradise?

yup

History of paradise
While parts of Paradise have been inhabited since the late nineteenth-century, its growth only took off in the 1960s and 1970s as a "bedroom community" of nearby St. John's, and has grown at a rapid pace since. In the early 1990s, the Town of Paradise was amalgamated with the Town of St. Thomas. Other developed areas which had previously been administered by the St. John's Metropolitan Board, an agency of the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, were also amalgamated with Paradise. These areas are Three Island Pond, Topsail Pond, Elizabeth Park, and Evergreen Village. Recently, Paradise has been identified by Statistics Canada as the fastest-growing municipality in Atlantic Canada.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador

St. Thomas:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=st.+thomas+NL&hl=en&ll=47.5606,-52.892475&spn=0.025456,0.066047&hnear=St+Thomas,+Paradise,+Division+No.+1,+Newfoundland+and+Labrador&t=h&z=15

Also WHAT THE HELL was the St. John's Metropolitan board???? and what happened to it??

[jeddy1989]

I don't know if you guys know this exists but here is the North East Avalon Economic Development Board:

http://www.northeastavalonredb.ca/index.php

[SignalHillHiker]

That's what stood out to me as well. Maybe that's what we need to resurrect? It would probably be easier and cheaper than combining municipal governments or, God forbid, adding a new regional level of government (say, like the mainland's counties).

[SignalHillHiker]

I don't know if you guys know this exists but here is the North East Avalon Economic Development Board:

http://www.northeastavalonredb.ca/index.php

Never trust an organization that uses an acronym when it doesn't make sense to do so.

"NEA REDB"? No thanks.

[jeddy1989]

here is a review of Amalgamation done in 2011 by Stantec

this comes from that report:

3.0 MUNICIPAL REORGANIZATION IN
CANADA
The need for regional governance is almost unassailable. Even the strongest opponents
of amalgamation recognize that the scope of at least some services extends beyond
typical municipal boundaries. Regions with many municipal governments, like the
Northeast Avalon, normally have regional service agencies to accomplish this and
opponents of amalgamation invariably point to the viability of such agencies as a key
argument against amalgamation.
Three basic approaches are available to address regional service delivery:
• Inter-municipal Agreements and Agencies – Specific services can be delivered
through commissions, authorities, or similar bodies supported by two or more
independent municipal units. Each agency is responsible for one or more
services. In the United States, very large urban centres are served through ad
hoc arrangements of this type. In British Columbia, many inter-municipal
arrangements are coordinated through the province’s system of Regional
Districts.
• Upper Tier Regional Governments – Two or more independent municipal units
can participate in a regional government that will normally provide one or more
services mutually agreed upon by the participating units. The municipalities
separately provide the balance of services themselves. Two-tier structures of this
type were standard for a time in Ontario and were used in other areas as well.
They have been superceded in Ontario by single tier structures, although some
examples persist elsewhere in Canada, most notably the Montreal Metropolitan
Community.
• Single-tier Regional Government – Two or more independent municipalities can
dissolve into a single local government that provides all municipal services.
The last of these options is, in some respects, both the oldest and the newest.
Progressive annexation served many expanding urban areas well through the first
century of Canada’s existence and continues to be employed in many situations to
extend urban services to new communities and developed areas. By the 1950s,
however, the approach met with resistance in areas where established communities
came to abut each other, most notably in Toronto, where Canada’s first two-tier regional
government was established. The reform effort of the nineties, which more or less started

http://m.stjohns.ca/sites/default/files/files/publication/CSJ_Amalgamation_Report_102011.pdf

[Copes]

I don't have time to get into this deeply at the moment (about to run to a meeting) but my short answer is that yes, the region absolutely should. However, it won't. So, with that in mind, some sort of regional planning committee / council needs to get together and think rationally about the good of the area when it comes to projects.

[Townie709]

Yes. It should 100% happen. The benefits of amalgamation and regional cooperation are undeniable. But, unfortunately each community (especially Mount Pearl) is far too headstrong to amalgamate. The only way I see it happening is if the provincial government forced it (Which IMO, they should.)

Amalgamation is not the most important thing though. If our municipal politicians were civil enough to participate in heavy regional cooperation, amalgamation wouldn't be an issue. Unfortunately everyone seems to have an attitude of superiority.. ex: the gushue Highway Ext.

[PoscStudent]

I'll elaborate later but I don't see what the benefits are for a full merger of the region. The only good thing is from a planning perspective, which I don't think will improve, and we don't need amalgamation for that anyways.

[SignalHillHiker]

I'll elaborate later but I don't see what the benefits are for a full merger of the region. The only good thing is from a planning perspective, which I don't think will improve, and we don't need amalgamation for that anyways.

Well, this is kind of your area of expertise, I assume - so I'm curious to learn your reasoning.

*****

I'd have thought it'd be cheaper for just about everything - easier to afford municipal council, municipal services, etc.

Of course, that said, I doubt taxes would actually go down :haha:.

[JHikka]

I'm not all that familiar with the municipal dealings between each of the municipalities in the Avalon area but I will try to provide something to this thread at a later date. Amalgamation and regionalization is something that we're really trying to work towards in New Brunswick at the moment.

[Marty_Mcfly]

It probably makes more sense for us to do it than it did for Halifax. The HRM is currently a mess of urban and rural regions being treated as one. In comparison, most of the northeast Avalon can be considered urban, with a few places such as Pouch Cove, Maddox Cove, etc. which are definitely more rural. I think some differences in how the municipality is run which would account for the different needs of each city/town would be a must.

If there was a way to encourage still using the old city names instead of just saying Northeast Avalon Regional Municipality or whatever it'd be called would definitely be a plus for each town/city.

Creating such a regional municipality would definitely keep the northeast Avalon from competing with each other and have them work as one to compete with other Canadian cities for regional funding/infrastructure/services.

[SignalHillHiker]

I'm not all that familiar with the municipal dealings between each of the municipalities in the Avalon area but I will try to provide something to this thread at a later date. Amalgamation and regionalization is something that we're really trying to work towards in New Brunswick at the moment.

Awesome, please do.

The dealings are not really all that bad. I'm sure others can add more or correct anything if I'm mistaken, but here's how I see it:

St. John's generally feels it's footing the bill for surrounding communities that leech off its infrastructure and services without paying to keep them going. This is ESPECIALLY exasperated by the fact leaders and residents in these suburban towns often cite their generally far lower taxes as reasons NOT to amalgamate.

Suburban communities generally feel that St. John's is so horribly mismanaged that it would be devastating for their comparably smooth, well-run tidy, tiny town operations to join.

Beyond that you have the Townie/Bayman divide, which doesn't exist (at least not to the same degree, nor framed by the same prejudices) among younger people.

[ConundrumNL]

I don't like the fact that all involved parties consider amalgamation to be St. John's consuming all the communities in the region.

Why can't they do something like Greater London or the Dublin Regional Authority. Each community could retain it's legal status and councils, but there would a regional board that could handle things like public transport, fire services, water, and establish a regional plan.

[jeddy1989]

Awesome, please do.

The dealings are not really all that bad. I'm sure others can add more or correct anything if I'm mistaken, but here's how I see it:

St. John's generally feels it's footing the bill for surrounding communities that leech off its infrastructure and services without paying to keep them going. This is ESPECIALLY exasperated by the fact leaders and residents in these suburban towns often cite their generally far lower taxes as reasons NOT to amalgamate.

Suburban communities generally feel that St. John's is so horribly mismanaged that it would be devastating for their comparably smooth, well-run tidy, tiny town operations to join.

Beyond that you have the Townie/Bayman divide, which doesn't exist (at least not to the same degree, nor framed by the same prejudices) among younger people.

that's outside the metro region.. people from other parts of the province would just conciser the whole metro area townies .. people from paradise may have been rural and past the overpass years ago but not now lol CBS is just an extension

when you get out to holyrood and further that's when you get the around the bay in town divide, not in the NEA

you are definitely right about the other attitudes though

[SignalHillHiker]

I don't like the fact that all involved parties consider amalgamation to be St. John's consuming all the communities in the region.

Why can't they do something like Greater London or the Dublin Regional Authority. Each community could retain it's legal status and councils, but there would a regional board that could handle things like public transport, fire services, water, and establish a regional plan.

I'd love that - and if it works in the U.K. and Ireland, which have the same bitter divisions between proud, old communities - no matter how small their population - it could work here.

[jeddy1989]

I'd love that - and if it works in the U.K. and Ireland, which have the same bitter divisions between proud, old communities - no matter how small their population - it could work here.

This is what I mean by we need to not only look to Canadian cities to learn how to solve our issues but look to Europe because we seem to be much more similar to them and how they develop (of course to an extent but the issues we face with identity and development seem to be similar)

[SignalHillHiker]

:previous:

Well, if it's European and not Canadian, you know both of those are checkmarks in my book, ha! :)

I think we might actually be able to get a strong consensus in approval of Conundrum's suggestion in this thread. Could be worth a Letter to the Editor in the future. :)

[jeddy1989]

:previous:

Well, if it's European and not Canadian, you know both of those are checkmarks in my book, ha! :)

I think we might actually be able to get a strong consensus in approval of Conundrum's suggestion in this thread. Could be worth a Letter to the Editor in the future. :)

ummmm EXCUSE ME .. I know I end up taking credit for other people (well receiving credit LOL) BUT I believe I may have mentioned this before, signal

I don't think this will happen unless the provincial government forces it and most of the votes come from this region so I don't know if they will ..

even if some sort of NEA higher council or committee is formed to tackle specific issues such as overall development patterns, transportation, garbage collection, water services etc.

I think something along those lines with representatives from each municipality is more likely (even if it's more expensive)

Even if we could amalgamate some of the other municipalities ... just to reduce the number of municipalities

and I completely agree with what he said :)

[Marty_Mcfly]

It's okay for some of the smaller surrounding towns to lean a little more on St. John's for survival, but I think the real issue St. John's residents take exception to is how dependent Mount Pearl, Paradise, and to a much lesser extent Conception Bay South are on St. John's. There's no reason for cities/towns with populations of 24,000, 18,000, and 24,000 respectively to not provide the services a city of that size should. None of these places have a hospital for instance. Nor public transit, etc. They roll in to St. John's day in and day out, avail of the services in the city that theirs don't have, go home, and then complain about how awful St. John's is and how amazing their suburban hell is.

In contrast, the only real reason any St. John's resident has to go in to either of these other cities is the annual pilgrimage to the DMV in Mount Pearl (which I assume was generously placed outside the capital city to please some of the masses)

As well, some of the smaller services that Mount Pearl does have are there to duplicate what's already in St. John's. Case in point: when I worked with Service Canada a few years ago, we were forced to open a mini summer office of our department in Mount Pearl. During those long 16 weeks in the Mount Pearl office we saw literally no one. A complete waste of taxpayer money to front that office, but our boss told us that despite losing money they weren't going to close the office in fear that Mount Pearl and Randy Simms (their mayor) would make a huge deal about it. Just so stupid. And yes, your federal money paid for to rent office space in a suburb so I could browse facebook for 8 hours a day.

EDIT: that was for JHikka but you guys posted a thousand things in the amount of time it took for me to post this haha

[SignalHillHiker]

It would be more expensive, I assume, to add this new layer of government - especially if council salaries are not decreased with their diminished responsibility.

But it could be worth it, in the ong run, to ensure smarter development and more regional cooperation - especially on core services. And it would definitely help alleviate some of the unfairness in terms of who is currently paying taxes in support of what.

And, if it is another layer of government and we keep our individual city/town names and councils... then it's easy to just name this the Northeast Avalon Regional Authority - no need to force St. John's on anyone.

[mrjanejacobs]

I don't know if amalgamation is necessary, and I definitely don't think a full-out NEA amalgamation is necessary. However, there are definitely some municipalities that could merge.

In any case, cooperation on key portfolios is CRITICAL. Whether it involves creating a regional authority which has superiority over the region's municipalities, it's unclear. Public transportation is the best example. We all know we need it. Everyone will benefit from regional transit. Mount Pearl resists. Paradise hesitates. On matters of regional influence, cooperation just isn't practical. We need one authority that can make decisions for all of the region. This competition for suburban resettlement is also a huge problem. We are all in this together. The fact that CBS and Paradise are not planning for the population growth, and instead, are just allowing any impromptu sub-division to pop up - it's unacceptable and ridiculous.

There is also a huge amount of political opportunism - why would Randy Simms ever push for amalgamation if it meant he would lose his job? He won't - Randy Simms is the most opportunistic/populist politician on the Avalon. He is irresponsible and in my opinion, a pretty big joke.

We are wasting huge amounts of resources and are hindering our own sustainable development by competing with each other and on the whole, we are slowing ourselves down by not cooperating under one single regional authority.

Another idea would be for Mount Pearl to amalgamate with St.John's, Paradise with CBS. This would give 2 large municipalities to negotiate on regional issues rather than the EXTREMELY unmanageable 4 groups at the negotiating table.

Finally - in terms of names-sake - many larger Cities, like Montreal for instance, amalgamated in the 90s, and it carved out boroughs (ranging from 25000-150000 people) and they are great with their own small community boards which take care of community issues. So it's not like "Mount Pearl" will be erased from history books if amalgamation happens... Plus, "Mount Pearl" sounds like the name of an ugly suburban sub-division - maybe it's good this name is lost? haha

[rwspencer38]

It's okay for some of the smaller surrounding towns to lean a little more on St. John's for survival, but I think the real issue St. John's residents take exception to is how dependent Mount Pearl, Paradise, and to a much lesser extent Conception Bay South are on St. John's. There's no reason for cities/towns with populations of 24,000, 18,000, and 24,000 respectively to not provide the services a city of that size should. None of these places have a hospital for instance. Nor public transit, etc. They roll in to St. John's day in and day out, avail of the services in the city that theirs don't have, go home, and then complain about how awful St. John's is and how amazing their suburban hell is.

In contrast, the only real reason any St. John's resident has to go in to either of these other cities is the annual pilgrimage to the DMV in Mount Pearl (which I assume was generously placed outside the capital city to please some of the masses)

As well, some of the smaller services that Mount Pearl does have are there to duplicate what's already in St. John's. Case in point: when I worked with Service Canada a few years ago, we were forced to open a mini summer office of our department in Mount Pearl. During those long 16 weeks in the Mount Pearl office we saw literally no one. A complete waste of taxpayer money to front that office, but our boss told us that despite losing money they weren't going to close the office in fear that Mount Pearl and Randy Simms (their mayor) would make a huge deal about it. Just so stupid. And yes, your federal money paid for to rent office space in a suburb so I could browse facebook for 8 hours

What year did you work for SCCY?

What might come as a surprise is that I am against amalgamation. In all honesty i think that amalgamation would only benefit St. Johns and not paradise/mount pearl. As i have said before, regional cooperation should be used to establish regional infrastructure. Might come as a surprise but residents of other communities pay for access to the major infrastructure such as the airport and dump by agreeing to cost share on projects. The hospital is PROVINCIAL and is a bad measure of how developed a community is. If they can legalize some form of regional board responsible for major developments, transportation etc... then i think the area would be fine.

[Architype]

As most of you know I live in Vancouver where you don't hear the word amalgamation mentioned nearly as often. There is a reason for this, better coordination and cooperation between the munucpalities, and seperate entities of regional government. St. John's has only thirteen separate municipalities, but Vancouver has twenty-four, six of which have larger populations than the city of St. John's, and the smallest of which has only a few hundred. Translink, which administers the regional transportation system, provides transit for most if not all of these areas.

In St. John's I think there is some room for consolidation or amalgamation, but I don't really like the completely forced Halifax regional municipality as a model because it includes areas which have nothing or little in common with the actual city. At most for St. John's I would include only the more densely planned (or properly suburban) areas such as Mt. Pearl. Often, previously annexed or amalgamated areas in St. John's were included either because the city needed undeveloped land to expand or because a municipality was completely surrounded by the city (i.e. Wedgewood Park). Also, some of these areas were previously unincorporated.

As an alternative to amalgamation you could look at Metro Vancouver, a political body formerly known as the GVRD. Metro Vancouver has 24 separate municipalities or local governments, but also four entities of regional government. Every town or city gets to keep it's identity and a high level of local control, however services are coordinated by the following, Metro Vancouver:

"Metro Vancouver is under the direction of 24 local governments; it delivers regional services, sets policy and acts as a political forum."

"Metro Vancouver is technically composed of four separate corporate entities: the Greater Vancouver Regional District (GVRD), the Greater Vancouver Sewerage & Drainage District (GVS&DD), the Greater Vancouver Water District (GVWD) and the Metro Vancouver Housing Corporation (MVHC).[4] Each of these is governed by a board of directors."

"The principal function of Metro Vancouver is to administer resources and services which are common across the metropolitan area."

Have a look at the wiki articles or official website for more detail:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Vancouver
http://www.metrovancouver.org/Pages/default.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransLink_(British_Columbia)

[SignalHillHiker]

Great posts, MrJane and Architype.

[Architype]

There is also a huge amount of political opportunism - why would Randy Simms ever push for amalgamation if it meant he would lose his job? He won't - Randy Simms is the most opportunistic/populist politician on the Avalon. He is irresponsible and in my opinion, a pretty big joke.

We are wasting huge amounts of resources and are hindering our own sustainable development by competing with each other and on the whole, we are slowing ourselves down by not cooperating under one single regional authority.

Another idea would be for Mount Pearl to amalgamate with St.John's, Paradise with CBS. This would give 2 large municipalities to negotiate on regional issues rather than the EXTREMELY unmanageable 4 groups at the negotiating table.

Finally - in terms of names-sake - many larger Cities, like Montreal for instance, amalgamated in the 90s, and it carved out boroughs (ranging from 25000-150000 people) and they are great with their own small community boards which take care of community issues. So it's not like "Mount Pearl" will be erased from history books if amalgamation happens... Plus, "Mount Pearl" sounds like the name of an ugly suburban sub-division - maybe it's good this name is lost? haha

I agree with most or all of that.

I am also reasonably sure that Randy Simms could get elected as councillor for the WARD of Mt. Pearl.

Mount Pearl also used to be Mt.Pearl-Glendale (Glendale is the older area West of Commonwealth Ave).

[mrjanejacobs]

I don't like the term "ward" - I find it sounds hyper-administrative.

I like to call them boroughs or preferably communities or even quarters (quartiers). I think 'community' is nice because it is a throw-back to NL tradition of communities and calling them as such. It also sounds pretty... friendly :) and welcoming. Then again we could have political wards/boroughs with smaller communities of about 5000 people just for the sake of community-building.

[Architype]

Also WHAT THE HELL was the St. John's Metropolitan board???? and what happened to it??

St. John’s Metropolitan Area Board was "a regional authority that provided municipal administration, development control, and services to areas outside of the incorporated municipalities in the region". There are no such unincorporated areas any more, therefore no need for the SJMAB in that capacity.

[PoscStudent]

My problem with amalgamation, which I use to be fine with, is that St. John's is not a well run city. The city has enough problems with taking care of their current residents without taking on nearly twice as many new ones. Reports commissioned by the city have said it wouldn't work well.

The Goulds amalgamated with St. John's over 20 years ago and they still don't have water and sewer services. How do you say to unserviced areas of the NEA that you are going to amalgamate with St. John's, your services won't change but your taxes will go up? I believe in Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove their mill rate of 4.5 compared to 8.1 in St. John's.

Some will say well just amalgamate Mount Pearl with St. John's, but Mount Pearl currently has much better services then St. John's. Why would they want to amalgamate with St. John's just to get worse services?

I think the merger of some communities could work, like Mount Pearl and Paradise for instance and Witless Bay and Bay Bulls.

[Architype]

Mt. Pearl has no transit system of its own, only that which is provided by St. John's. I think the time for amalgamation will become more obvious when developed areas like Mt. Pearl become completely surrounded by and therefore integrated into the St. John's areas (especially to the south) - after they are built and developed.

[Architype]

I don't like the term "ward" - I find it sounds hyper-administrative.

I like to call them boroughs or preferably communities or even quarters (quartiers). I think 'community' is nice because it is a throw-back to NL tradition of communities and calling them as such. It also sounds pretty... friendly :) and welcoming. Then again we could have political wards/boroughs with smaller communities of about 5000 people just for the sake of community-building.

Is there really any difference except in name between a borough and a ward? Borough does sound better, and is most prominently known in describing the areas of New York which are very well defined historically. If St John's were to fully amalgamate its region, "boroughs" might sound better in the sense of providing identity - the "Borough of Mt. Pearl" does sound better than ward. To use "community" is a bit too vague or ambiguous, since in Newfoundland that was the term most commonly used to describe outports, and is also commonly used for ethnic groups.

[Townie709]

If one community should be amalgamated with St. John's, it's Mount Pearl. Mount Pearl, unlike Torbay or CBS, is completely integrated with St. John's; there is no dividing line between SJ/MP. It is surrounded with no room to grow and will only become integrated further in the future. Out of all the possible communities to amalgamate, Mount Peal and St. John's makes the most sense. The only problem is Mount Pearl has it's nose so high in the air that if it rained, they'd drown. Also, introducing the Pearlies to the concept of an elevator might take them some getting used to :haha:

[SignalHillHiker]

Is there really any difference except in name between a borough and a ward? Borough does sound better, and is most prominently known in describing the areas of New York which are very well defined historically. If St John's were to fully amalgamate its region, "boroughs" might sound better in the sense of providing identity - the "Borough of Mt. Pearl" does sound better than ward. To use "community" is a bit too vague or ambiguous, since in Newfoundland that was the term most commonly used to describe outports, and is also commonly used for ethnic groups.

I do love "Community" - and I have no problem with us taking language that was associated with outports and using it in our own urban way. I think that's cute.

However, borough does sound better.

BUT I worry we might end up like non-NYC cities that use numbers for street names. I always roll my eyes and think, "Gurl... who you foolin'? You ain't Manhattan, b***h..."

I'm afraid us using borough would be equally hilarious to everyone.

[mrjanejacobs]

I don't think so - the borough term is actually really common and used in a lot of City's, not just New York.

I am certain Newfoundlanders would never accept a street-naming system of numbering. haha

I think Architype is right about the ambiguity of community for administrative purposes. But boroughs are also known to be a lot larger than communities (more like a ward). "Ward" sounds like shit. haha Borough perhaps would be good for administrative 'wards'.

However, I think 'communities' are really important and we should more often support these kinds of organizations. For instance, we want to give residents of a certain area an identity - a "place" to identify with. Think about Georgestown or Pleasentville or Goulds or Kilbride, Quidi Vidi etc. These areas have really concise place-identity connections. Yes, they are historic - but that doesn't mean new places can't be similarly labeled for the sake of community-building.

CBS is the result of an amalgamation of 9 communities. They are oversized now, but some have pretty charming names that I would be happy to identify with - like "Greeleytown", "Peachytown", a new emerging name, "Cherrytown". If we can organize these communities with a volunteer government organization then we can begin much more sustainable planning at the community and neighbourhood scale.

I think being able to identify with a community is important for the sake of belonging to a place and larger community on the whole. :)

[mrjanejacobs]

Oh, here's a map of Montreal and it's boroughs, just for interest:

http://www.solutions-graffiti.com/uploads/images/news-images/montreal%20map.jpg

[Copes]

I don't think so - the borough term is actually really common and used in a lot of City's, not just New York.

I am certain Newfoundlanders would never accept a street-naming system of numbering. haha

I think Architype is right about the ambiguity of community for administrative purposes. But boroughs are also known to be a lot larger than communities (more like a ward). "Ward" sounds like shit. haha Borough perhaps would be good for administrative 'wards'.

However, I think 'communities' are really important and we should more often support these kinds of organizations. For instance, we want to give residents of a certain area an identity - a "place" to identify with. Think about Georgestown or Pleasentville or Goulds or Kilbride, Quidi Vidi etc. These areas have really concise place-identity connections. Yes, they are historic - but that doesn't mean new places can't be similarly labeled for the sake of community-building.

CBS is the result of an amalgamation of 9 communities. They are oversized now, but some have pretty charming names that I would be happy to identify with - like "Greeleytown", "Peachytown", a new emerging name, "Cherrytown". If we can organize these communities with a volunteer government organization then we can begin much more sustainable planning at the community and neighbourhood scale.

I think being able to identify with a community is important for the sake of belonging to a place and larger community on the whole. :)

A page out of one of Ms. Jacobs' book if I've ever seen one. :cheers:

I am pro amalgamation, simply because the current growth in the city, and the direction that the Avalon is heading, is unsustainable at its current rate. So much sprawl is capable of occurring because the communities are working against each other instead of WITH each other. If something is proposed, and one community doesn't want it, you can just build it somewhere else. The community that shut it down loses all the potential revenue generated from the project. They won't be so quick to shut the next one down.

Meanwhile, St. John's is getting screwed because the majority of folks in all the communities in the area cart themselves into the city for work. St. John's services are stressed, and so St. John's taxes are high. Amalgamation would undoubtedly raise the taxes in places like Paradise and LBMCOC... but rightfully so, in my opinion. Hopefully, taxes in the city would FALL themselves. Once everyone is contributing to the pot they are drawing from, the amalgamated area can develop a strategy to integrate services.

There are challenges, and much would need to be negotiated, but as a developer, I truly feel that each region is making it harder on themselves by insisting that they operate independently. Its great for developers though. So it depends how you slice it.

[SignalHillHiker]

I'm so excited by everyone's posts in this thread. It reaffirmed a few things for me - most of which Jeddy1989 has been pushing for years, ha!

1. When questions like this come up, we need to look to Europe first, not mainland Canada. We're much more likely to find solutions that most closely address our needs there. It may not always be the case, but the success rate will be higher than looking to Nova Scotia, or Ontario, or wherever else.

2. We CAN achieve smart regional planning while still enabling our separate communities to not only maintain their unique identities but even strengthen them.

These two things excite me very much. I think I want to contact the relevant authorities with the London/Dublin examples. Who would be the proper target of a letter like that? The province, I assume?

[Ayreonaut]

I would love to see numbered streets here. They would make absolutely NO sense whatsoever! :haha:

[SignalHillHiker]

:haha: Evil genius... lol Especially if we keep the same lopsided interpretation of cardinal points.

"So you're telling me 1st Avenue SouthWest is actually northeast of 1st Avenue Northeast?"

[Architype]

The street numbering systems are really helpful, but can also be mind numbing, also the block numbering systems provide coordinates even on streets with names, but it only works with a proper grid. The fact that we have GPS now makes things so much easier, you hardly need to know where you are going anymore.

[jeddy1989]

yeah try to use a number system here:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=st.+john's+NL&ll=47.569181,-52.707722&spn=0.001576,0.004128&hnear=St+John's,+Division+No.+1,+Newfoundland+and+Labrador&gl=ca&t=h&z=19

or here

http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=st.+john's+NL&ll=47.563525,-52.714548&spn=0.003153,0.008256&hnear=St+John's,+Division+No.+1,+Newfoundland+and+Labrador&gl=ca&t=h&z=18

or here hahaha

http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=st.+john's+NL&ll=47.565147,-52.709798&spn=0.001576,0.004128&hnear=St+John's,+Division+No.+1,+Newfoundland+and+Labrador&gl=ca&t=h&z=19

[PoscStudent]

An interesting read. http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/03/08/tear-down-the-borders-victoria-area-residents-rallying-support-for-amalgamation-of-13-municipalities/

[SignalHillHiker]

Fascinating. Scary to think the divisions helped crime...

[mrjanejacobs]

I don't think this has been posted yet, or if it's been consulted by many forumers by I recently stumbled on to this report published on the City of St.John's website, dated 2011 by Stantec:

http://www.stjohns.ca/sites/default/files/files/publication/CSJ_Amalgamation_Report_102011.pdf

It's an amalgamation report that supports Amalgamating the City of Mount Pearl, Elizabeth Park, Evergreen Village and St. Anne's Industrial Park with St.John's.

Pretty good read... haha

[PoscStudent]

Around the time of its release the city manager said that the report provided a "weak" case for amalgamation and that the report would likely reinforce opposition.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2011/10/18/nl-amalgamation-memo-117.html

[mrjanejacobs]

God damn - however, the City Manager's rationale in follow-up to the report (in the article) is a little naive... of course taxes would change - they will just even-out.

Why is the City Manager taking such a political view on this? It doesn't seem like something that should be up to the City Manager.... right?

[Marty_Mcfly]

It really depends on who you ask in the metro region how they feel about the issue. Most of the "experts" from St. John's will sing amalgamation, even if reports from outside the city say otherwise :haha:

[PoscStudent]

The city manager is there to give opinions and recommendations.

[delesseps]

I don't think this has been posted yet, or if it's been consulted by many forumers by I recently stumbled on to this report published on the City of St.John's website, dated 2011 by Stantec:

http://www.stjohns.ca/sites/default/files/files/publication/CSJ_Amalgamation_Report_102011.pdf

It's an amalgamation report that supports Amalgamating the City of Mount Pearl, Elizabeth Park, Evergreen Village and St. Anne's Industrial Park with St.John's.

Pretty good read... haha

I took a look at the report today, and I agree that the entire Waterford River watershed should be within the City of St. John's. After Hurricane Gabrielle, St. John's introduced site development regulations requiring peak runoff to be no higher post-development than it was pre-development. Depending on the site, the necessary stormwater retention can be costly. A number of commercial buildings, including the new St. John Ambulance headquarters, have been built in Mount Pearl to skirt the regulation. Since Mount Pearl drains into the Waterford River, this contributes to flood risk in St. John's.

C.B.S. and the whole of Paradise should be included in a larger City of St. John's that assumes responsibility for all of the roads within its boundaries. Once suburban residents are paying their fair share of infrastructure costs, there will be no reason for the provincial government to maintain our local highways.

[PoscStudent]

IMO, we don't need amalgamation to solve many of the issues the region faces. Amalgamating some communities might be wise but I don't think amalgamating the while region at this time would be wise.

[mrjanejacobs]

Moreover, the fear that underpins many amalgamation discussions will be the political polarization. Look no further than the City of Toronto.

The values of people living in the suburbs will unlikely correspond with the values of people living downtown. People in the suburbs see more roads, parking, conveniences for cars as a good thing (logically so). Power of numbers will give even more political weight to suburban voters with car-minded values if there was ever amalgamation.

[mrjanejacobs]

In other words - Intentionally enclosing an electorate where there is such polarized opinions on city building can do more harm than good.

[delesseps]

Moreover, the fear that underpins many amalgamation discussions will be the political polarization. Look no further than the City of Toronto.

The values of people living in the suburbs will unlikely correspond with the values of people living downtown. People in the suburbs see more roads, parking, conveniences for cars as a good thing (logically so). Power of numbers will give even more political weight to suburban voters with car-minded values if there was ever amalgamation.

Mercifully, none of the municipalities on the Northeast Avalon have the resources to build literal gravy trains à la Rob Ford. In both Nova Scotia and Newfoundland and Labrador, it's provincial governments that have been caught up in road-building mania for the last decade. Left to their own devices, I doubt the municipalities of the Northern Avalon would have built the ORR, the CBS Bypass, the Torbay Bypass, or the Team Gushue Highway in their present forms. Similarly, it's the Government of Nova Scotia and not HRM that has been upgrading 100-series highways and is in the process of building a new highway from Dartmouth to Sackville based on a report from 1991! (http://novascotia.ca/tran/highways/hwy107/EA%20Report_Hwy%20107%20Ext_Dartmouth%20to%20Sackville_June91.pdf)

Downloading the responsibility for road building and maintenance to municipalities tends to reign in excesses since the full costs must be borne by local property owners. To do so on the Northern Avalon would require either amalgamation or a TfL-style transport authority responsible for both roads and public transportation in all of the local municipalities. The towns to the north of St. John's have been omitted from my suggested merger only because they're not attached to the growing spaghetti of highways leading southwest out of the City. Assuming that an amalgamated municipality would have more car-minded values than the City of St. John's gives too much credit to a City that allowed a bus strike to drag on for months, doesn't clear its sidewalks, is mad for big box stores, has agreed to maintain a new highway to Mount Pearl and beyond, and recently debated removing its bike lanes. Throwing a minority of tax-averse suburbanites into the mix is unlikely to cause any harm.

[delesseps]

From VOCM (http://vocm.com/newsarticle.asp?mn=2&id=51845&latest=1):

Galway Development to Proceed Despite Mount Pearl Concerns
Tuesday , January 6 2015 | 7:37:43 AM

The City of St. John's did not heed a request from the City of Mount Pearl to speak to them before a rezoning at last night's meeting. However, Mayor Dennis O'Keefe says that doesn't mean they're not listening.

O'Keefe says the problem Mount Pearl has with the Galway development, which sits on the border of the city, is mainly related to traffic.

Mount Pearl City Council says it does not support the proposed roundabouts at the Pitts Memorial Drive and Ruth Avenue interchange as it will create congestion on the existing Mount Pearl roadway. O'Keefe says They chose to rezone last night to get the ball rolling on the development, but he says that's only a small piece of the puzzle. He says the rezoning is only a small part of the development, and traffic issues as cited by the city of Mount Pearl have more to do with the future than right now. He says staff from both cities will take a look at traffic patterns.

At St. John's council last night, 55 acres of land at 40 Reservoir Road were rezoned to make way for a big box commercial development for Galway. Mount Pearl also says no development should occur around the 190 metre contour until a regional water study is complete.

Council's approval of car-dependent sprawl without a direct connection to the St. John's municipal road network illustrates the absurdity of our current municipal boundaries particularly well.

[PoscStudent]

I've been thinking about this idea recently. Not just for St. John's but for the entire province. I don't necessarily support the idea of amalgamating entire areas but I think we need to look at regional models.

I've been thinking of it recently because it would be wise for the province to look at in an effort to save money. Do a major municipal restructuring throughout the province and download some additional services to those regional governments. It could allow the government to save money and decision making could be at done at a more local level.

[Offshore1]

Perhaps after the provincial election a push can be made for amalgamation. I can't see anyone daring to mention it prior to or during an election.

The province, towns and cities desperately need to get this done on the Northeast Avalon for both financial and planning purposes.

Small mindededness, NIMBYism, no vision - all these plagues to progress have got to go.

[Horsell]

Not that I have any vested interest in how municipalities are governed but I think the current system of Town Councils in ever little nook and cranny has to be inefficient. I would like to see a county system implemented whereby existing communities can still maintain their identity within a broader area. No more of this foolish naming of towns such as Portugal Cove – St. Phillips or my favorite, New-wes-valley.

I could see St. John’s and Mount Pearl as one city (St. Mount John’s or Pearl John’s or Pearl Jam…or something) with the rest of the NE Avalon as one or two counties. Drawing the exact border may be a bit tricky with Paradise very close to St. John’s but I’m sure there are legitimate criteria such as water and sewer infrastructure that might help define it a bit better.

I would not favor a “super city” concept where there are clearly rural/urban components. Being a “townie”, I’d like to see the City of St. John’s (including Mt. Pearl) maintain a primarily urban landscape. If you have a goat or a hen on your property, you live in the “country”…sorry “Southside goats”, you have to move…lol.

[goodgrowth]

Entire Northeast Avalon? No. Mount Pearl and Paradise? Yes.

If nothing else to tackle and improve transit.

[MrChills]

Entire Northeast Avalon? No. Mount Pearl and Paradise? Yes.

If nothing else to tackle and improve transit.

I would start with those also. It would be interesting to see a report outlining the benefit from a fiscal standpoint of eliminating councils and other overlapping departments within the city and two towns.

[goodgrowth]

huh...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/is-there-room-for-paradise-city-town-considers-status-change-1.3185174

[MrChills]

huh...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/is-there-room-for-paradise-city-town-considers-status-change-1.3185174

Paradise is an example of everything NOT to do with a municipality. I haven't followed much of what's gone on there since leaving NL about five years ago. But, I seem to recall that the Junior/High School students were bused to CBS. They have no full time fire department, no public transit. There should be more criteria for city status outside of just population. If there is any change, it should be the annexation of the ugly sprawl into being a part of the city of St. John's.

[J_Murphy]

Paradise is an example of everything NOT to do with a municipality. I haven't followed much of what's gone on there since leaving NL about five years ago. But, I seem to recall that the Junior/High School students were bused to CBS. They have no full time fire department, no public transit. There should be more criteria for city status outside of just population. If there is any change, it should be the annexation of the ugly sprawl into being a part of the city of St. John's.

For the longest time they seemed to be obsessed with the "fastest growing municipality in Atlantic Canada" title and forgot about anything else. They were completely focused on sticking in subdivisions wherever they could. They are almost completely reliant on surrounding municipalities for providing most basic things that a City is supposed to provide. It's only within the last month or so they got a proper supermarket.

It's not a very nice looking town either in my opinion.

[MrChills]

For the longest time they seemed to be obsessed with the "fastest growing municipality in Atlantic Canada" title and forgot about anything else. They were completely focused on sticking in subdivisions wherever they could. They are almost completely reliant on surrounding municipalities for providing most basic things that a City is supposed to provide. It's only within the last month or so they got a proper supermarket.

It's not a very nice looking town either in my opinion.

I actually lived in Paradise when I was a kid from 1980-1991 and back then it was an escape from St. John's that provided rural living next to an urban center. The town actually looked nice with a ton of green space and little getaways in the woods around Adams and Neil's pond. Unfortunately they've mowed down all the trees and allowed developers to take over cramming as many cookie cutter houses into a space as possible, it's sad really.

[J_Murphy]

http://www.vocm.com/newsarticle.asp?mn=2&ID=56660&GetComments=1&latest=1

Hussey, who is also a per course instructor at Memorial University, says city status allows a municipality to create and enforce their own bylaws.



Am I missing something here? Doesn't CBS have a municipal enforcement that enforce by-laws? They are a town, why can't Paradise do the same?

[Trevor3]

http://www.vocm.com/newsarticle.asp?mn=2&ID=56660&GetComments=1&latest=1



Am I missing something here? Doesn't CBS have a municipal enforcement that enforce by-laws? They are a town, why can't Paradise do the same?

I imagine they can. We have municipal enforcement officers in Stephenville, I don't see why Paradise couldn't have the same.

[goodgrowth]

Paradise is an example of everything NOT to do with a municipality. I haven't followed much of what's gone on there since leaving NL about five years ago. But, I seem to recall that the Junior/High School students were bused to CBS. They have no full time fire department, no public transit. There should be more criteria for city status outside of just population. If there is any change, it should be the annexation of the ugly sprawl into being a part of the city of St. John's.

I agree...partly. Paradise was nice area to live in the 90's. Unfortunately in the early 2000's it started developing subdivisions almost everywhere it could and effectively doubled it's population in a 10-12 year period without much thought put into traffic/amenities. Alot of the population growth in metro over the last 10 years has been absorbed by Paradise.

I think in the last few years in particular it has improved somewhat by investing in wider roads, industrial park, more schools (provincial gov issue), fire station, rec center/double ice surface and now there a couple of supermarkets as well as increased commercial areas.

That being said would I call it a "city"? No. It's close enough to St. John's it is effectively part of the metro. Same with Mt. Pearl.

Councillors(aka politicians) in Paradise want to be a city for the same reason Mt. Pearl has always refused amalgamation. They want to maintain and legitimize their jobs.

[jthetzel]

Am I missing something here? Doesn't CBS have a municipal enforcement that enforce by-laws? They are a town, why can't Paradise do the same?

Let me know if I'm way off base here...

Shorter version: Municipalities have limited power to enact regulations, cities have broader power. This broader power is probably what Mr. Hussey refers to when he mentions by-laws, but to my eye the term "regulation" and "by-law" are often used interchangeably in the province (all the regulations listed on the St. John's website are actually by-laws http://www.stjohns.ca/city-hall/about-city-hall/laws-and-regulations ). Paradise likely has similar power to enact and enforce regulations as CBS. If they don't have municipal enforcement officers, it's probably because they don't want to pay for them

Longer version: Municipalities are delegated limited power to self-regulate. Nearly all municipalities in Newfoundland and Labrador are controlled by the Municipalities Act of 1999 ( http://www.assembly.nl.ca/legislation/sr/statutes/m24.htm ). Three municipalities are controlled by separate acts: the City of St. John's Act ( http://www.assembly.nl.ca/legislation/sr/statutes/c17.htm ), the City of Mount Pearl Act ( http://www.assembly.nl.ca/legislation/sr/statutes/c16.htm ), and the City of Corner Brook Act ( http://www.assembly.nl.ca/legislation/sr/statutes/c15.htm ).

The City of St. John's Act §29, in summary, broadly gives Council the power to make rules, regulations, and by-laws for the purpose performing its duties. Such broad language is not found in the Municipalities Act. Instead, the Municipalities Act specifies narrow areas for Council's self-regulation (e.g. Municipalities Act §202 for business improvement area regulation and §414 for various municipal service regulation). However, just because a municipality is granted city status does not mean it enjoys the broad autonomy of St. John's. Glossing over the Corner Brook and Mount Pearl Acts, the delegated powers seem more limited than St. John's (no broad mention of power to make by-laws).

Also, the legal difference between a "by-law" and a "regulation" escapes me. I think of by-laws as being broader in scope and regulations narrower in scope, but both are still municipal self-regulation delegated by the provincial government.

[jjavman]

Absolutely!~

Well past time.

[colinpeddle]

Old af thread but I'd be really interesting if a poll was done and we could see the skew of votes for and against sorted by age group.

I'd wager 40 and under would vote for regional amalg and 41+ would be majority against it.

[PoscStudent]

Not sure if I previously mentioned it here, but I did a research paper on this topic for all of NL a few years ago. I had thought the best approach would be to force municipalities to amalgamate so that'd we'd have regional municipalities. However, from looking at previous reports done by the government - and other groups - and approaches in other provinces I found that it would make more sense to create regional governments without amalgamating all the municipalities within the region.

So municipalities could keep their autonomy if they wish but they would fall under a regional government that would be responsible for certain services.

[GlassCity]

Not sure if I previously mentioned it here, but I did a research paper on this topic for all of NL a few years ago. I had thought the best approach would be to force municipalities to amalgamate so that'd we'd have regional municipalities. However, from looking at previous reports done by the government - and other groups - and approaches in other provinces I found that it would make more sense to create regional governments without amalgamating all the municipalities within the region.

So municipalities could keep their autonomy if they wish but they would fall under a regional government that would be responsible for certain services.

So creating another layer of administration between municipalities and the province, like in BC?

[PoscStudent]

So creating another layer of administration between municipalities and the province, like in BC?

Maybe similar to BC and also how Ontario is structured.

So we'd have regional governments throughout the province made up of however many municipalities, this would also require all communities becoming incorporated as a town or city. These regional municipalities would have defined responsibilities, probably similar to the responsibilities the city of St. John's has.

[Architype]

Maybe similar to BC and also how Ontario is structured.

So we'd have regional governments throughout the province made up of however many municipalities, this would also require all communities becoming incorporated as a town or city. These regional municipalities would have defined responsibilities, probably similar to the responsibilities the city of St. John's has.

What would be the ideal populations or size of these regional districts? It seems like provincial electoral districts might be slightly too large for this purpose.

[PoscStudent]

What would be the ideal populations or size of these regional districts? It seems like provincial electoral districts might be slightly too large for this purpose.

I never thought that much about it. It might make more sense to base it on geography, rather than population.

[thevan]

Any move on this or is it dead? And the regional plan _still_ has not materialized some 7 years later.

Forced amalgamation was supposed to be the next step should it fall through but we haven't even gotten that far yet.

[Tocchet22]

If anyone needed any further proof of the need for amalgamation this was it.

NE Avalon does not have to re-invent the wheel with amalgamation. Other major cities (Toronto, Halifax) have done it in recent past and no doubt dealt with issues resulting from the change. So send a delegation to Halifax to discuss those issues so it can be implemented as correct as possible here!

I live in CBS and would have much rather seen my tax dollars spent on a Community Rec Center than new Town Hall. My property tax may go up initially but if I get the services I need because systems in place are more efficient, they may go down. Don't have any issue living in CBS region of St. John's Metro...

[jjavman]

:previous:

That suggestion has come up several times in other discussions here and I like it as well, at least as an interim step. Say... amalgamating Mount Pearl and Paradise to start.

Maybe CBS and Portugal Cove-St. Phillip's?

Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove and Torbay?

I think it should be St. John's/Mt. Pearl first. Mt. Pearl is virtually surrounded by St. John's, and there is some current unrest re: Southlands. This would be the biggest hurdle, and would maybe serve to spur opinion for others to join the metro region.

If it's Mt. Pearl & Paradise first, I think it could be an impediment, as the combined result would say they are an equal viable entity with St. John's.

:cheers:

[jjavman]

It probably makes more sense for us to do it than it did for Halifax. The HRM is currently a mess of urban and rural regions being treated as one. In comparison, most of the northeast Avalon can be considered urban, with a few places such as Pouch Cove, Maddox Cove, etc. which are definitely more rural. I think some differences in how the municipality is run which would account for the different needs of each city/town would be a must.

If there was a way to encourage still using the old city names instead of just saying Northeast Avalon Regional Municipality or whatever it'd be called would definitely be a plus for each town/city.

Creating such a regional municipality would definitely keep the northeast Avalon from competing with each other and have them work as one to compete with other Canadian cities for regional funding/infrastructure/services.

Agree. I think the place names would still exist colloquially in any case, as they do for divisions of other towns in NL. i.e; they still refer to Windsor area of GF-Windsor, Mockbeggar or Red Point in Bonavista. Even Powers Pond in Mt. Pearl as it stands now.

One advantage that HRM has now is that, if an entity is scouting to set up an Atlantic Canada base, they might look up the population of Halifax and find 430K which is the HRM figure.

Looking up St. John's yields 114K, which is far less than the 262K reported for NE Avalon metro area.

I realize there are other factors considered by a corporation when scouting for a head office location, but population is certainly up there, and lends the perception of a busier area with all the sporting, shopping, and cultural activities that it entails.

[jjavman]

Not that I have any vested interest in how municipalities are governed but I think the current system of Town Councils in ever little nook and cranny has to be inefficient. I would like to see a county system implemented whereby existing communities can still maintain their identity within a broader area. No more of this foolish naming of towns such as Portugal Cove – St. Phillips or my favorite, New-wes-valley.

I could see St. John’s and Mount Pearl as one city (St. Mount John’s or Pearl John’s or Pearl Jam…or something) with the rest of the NE Avalon as one or two counties. Drawing the exact border may be a bit tricky with Paradise very close to St. John’s but I’m sure there are legitimate criteria such as water and sewer infrastructure that might help define it a bit better.

I would not favor a “super city” concept where there are clearly rural/urban components. Being a “townie”, I’d like to see the City of St. John’s (including Mt. Pearl) maintain a primarily urban landscape. If you have a goat or a hen on your property, you live in the “country”…sorry “Southside goats”, you have to move…lol.

Cabot City !!KIDDING!!

[goodgrowth]

I am a bit less for amalgamation than I used to be.

First, I am more skeptical of the centralization of power in general...when you couple this with the fact that St. John's is not a particularly well run city to begin with...the skepticism is only compounded.

Second, most of the arguments for amalgamation are not giving many examples/evidence of how it will improve things or even what the goals are. If anything it seems to be more predicated on the fact they don't like the idea of surrounding communities having better services in certain cases.

Third, lets talk about the services and jobs argument that always pops up. Yes St. John's has a lot of jobs that services that benefit the entire region. BUT a lot of those high paying jobs and services are there due to the Provincial or Federal governments. If the surrounding communities are benefiting from St. John's, St. John's is benefiting from upper levels of government placing those things in their borders.

Now that my rant is out of the way...if some sort of amalgamation were to happen I'd rather it just be a regional authority that handled overarching things like public transit, emergency services, planning etc.

And of course any sort of amalgamation or regional authority would require equal representation across the region.

[Marty_Mcfly]

I've thought a lot about this as well, and I do think that regional governance may be the best approach. This is not just limited to the St. John's CMA, but should widely be used across the province as a cost-saving measure. I think even some sort of regional co-operation would go a long way at solving a lot of our issues, but municipalities all over our province can't stop bickering with one another to make any forward progress. We are essentially the Democratic Party here, stumbling over our own feet on the way to failure.

As far as Southlands goes, I'd give them to Mount Pearl in a heartbeat. St. John's loses nothing but maybe a couple thousand people on the population, and gains not having to drive snowclearing equipment out into the middle of nowhere.

[goodgrowth]

I've thought a lot about this as well, and I do think that regional governance may be the best approach. This is not just limited to the St. John's CMA, but should widely be used across the province as a cost-saving measure. I think even some sort of regional co-operation would go a long way at solving a lot of our issues, but municipalities all over our province can't stop bickering with one another to make any forward progress. We are essentially the Democratic Party here, stumbling over our own feet on the way to failure.

As far as Southlands goes, I'd give them to Mount Pearl in a heartbeat. St. John's loses nothing but maybe a couple thousand people on the population, and gains not having to drive snowclearing equipment out into the middle of nowhere.

St. John's boundaries pretty much take up the entire southern portion of the NE Avalon with the exception of Petty Harbor...the borders are much larger than one would think. I guess it's was preemptively given that land to make sure it remained the primary city.

The most obvious thing to make a regional co-operation for me is Metrobus. Mt. Pearl and Paradise already pay St. John's for service so it kinda makes sense to just make it a regional service and enhance and expand the routes. Whether CBS is a part of that I dunno.

If this worked well and there was good bus service throughout the metro it may be make amalgamation an easier sell in the future.

[J_Murphy]

Here's something to chew on.

Combine St. John's, Mount pearl, Paradise and CBS (what I would consider the more urban areas of the region), there are 4 mayors, 4 deputy mayors, and 26 councilors. 26 councilors! For approximately 200,000 people. That also comes with four different City/Town halls all with their own public works, HR, finance, recreation, etc. departments.

To put that in perspective, the City of Toronto has 1 mayor and 25 councilors and they are just shy of 3 million people (15x the population of the greater St. John's area). Halifax RM has a mayor and 16 councilors for just over 400,000 people.

[JHikka]

Here's something to chew on.

Combine St. John's, Mount pearl, Paradise and CBS (what I would consider the more urban areas of the region), there are 4 mayors, 4 deputy mayors, and 26 councilors. 26 councilors! For approximately 200,000 people. That also comes with four different City/Town halls all with their own public works, HR, finance, recreation, etc. departments.

To put that in perspective, the City of Toronto has 1 mayor and 25 councilors and they are just shy of 3 million people (15x the population of the greater St. John's area). Halifax RM has a mayor and 16 councilors for just over 400,000 people.

You can go from having too many representatives to having too few very quickly. Yes, Toronto is an example of a regional amalgamation, but that doesn't suit me well if I live in the city and my whims are being dictated by those in the suburbs. This happens in Ottawa quite a bit - urban developments are set aside in favour of suburban councillors in Kanata and Orleans because they can vote as a bloc of councillors to stifle any development that doesn't directly serve them. It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility for something similar to happen in St. John's depending on the makeup of the council.

I'm not against the idea of regional amalgamation per se but there are certainly pros and cons.

[jjavman]

Here's something to chew on.

Combine St. John's, Mount pearl, Paradise and CBS (what I would consider the more urban areas of the region), there are 4 mayors, 4 deputy mayors, and 26 councilors. 26 councilors! For approximately 200,000 people. That also comes with four different City/Town halls all with their own public works, HR, finance, recreation, etc. departments.

To put that in perspective, the City of Toronto has 1 mayor and 25 councilors and they are just shy of 3 million people (15x the population of the greater St. John's area). Halifax RM has a mayor and 16 councilors for just over 400,000 people.

Good post. Puts it in perspective.

:cheers:

[jjavman]

You can go from having too many representatives to having too few very quickly. Yes, Toronto is an example of a regional amalgamation, but that doesn't suit me well if I live in the city and my whims are being dictated by those in the suburbs. This happens in Ottawa quite a bit - urban developments are set aside in favour of suburban councillors in Kanata and Orleans because they can vote as a bloc of councillors to stifle any development that doesn't directly serve them. It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility for something similar to happen in St. John's depending on the makeup of the council.

I'm not against the idea of regional amalgamation per se but there are certainly pros and cons.

It might happen in Ottawa, but I bet they wouldn't currently have an LRT system without regional consolidation.

[Crisisnf]

I've thought a lot about this as well, and I do think that regional governance may be the best approach. This is not just limited to the St. John's CMA, but should widely be used across the province as a cost-saving measure. I think even some sort of regional co-operation would go a long way at solving a lot of our issues, but municipalities all over our province can't stop bickering with one another to make any forward progress. We are essentially the Democratic Party here, stumbling over our own feet on the way to failure.

As far as Southlands goes, I'd give them to Mount Pearl in a heartbeat. St. John's loses nothing but maybe a couple thousand people on the population, and gains not having to drive snowclearing equipment out into the middle of nowhere.

Interesting view on Southlands. That logic would also suggest handing over Galway, which is even further west, to Mount Pearl..Not certain but I believe St. John's has to plow Ruby Line since Southlands and Galway really aren't that far out of the way.

[Marty_Mcfly]

Interesting view on Southlands. That logic would also suggest handing over Galway, which is even further west, to Mount Pearl..Not certain but I believe St. John's has to plow Ruby Line since Southlands and Galway really aren't that far out of the way.

Galway itself is both a mistake and an urban nightmare. If Mount Pearl also wanted it I say let them have it.

[MonctonRad]

I don't know how much regional cooperation currently exists in the northeast Avalon, but it might be possible to have increased integration without full amalgamation.

In metropolitan Moncton we have two cities, one large town and a number of smaller villages and parishes.

City of Moncton (population 71,000)
City of Dieppe (population 28,000)
Town of Riverview (population 20,000)

This gives a POPCTR (conurbation) population of about 120,000, with the CMA being about 158,000.

Each community is fully independent, and maintains their own taxation, bylaw enforcement, planning, community and recreation departments. The fire departments also are not integrated.

- There is a single regional police force for the conurbation (Codiac RCMP)
- There is also a single transit system for the conurbation (Codiac Transpo)
- There is an integrated greater Moncton water system supplying the three communities.
- The sewerage commission is also integrated between the three communities.
- Waste management is even more regionalized, including the entire CMA and all of Westmorland, Albert and Kent Counties.

The system seems to work reasonably well, with each community maintaining their distinctive characters, but with certain efficiencies of scale obtained.

Is there any cooperation at all between your major regional cities and towns?

[Tocchet22]

CBC News discussed this topic with former Mayor Dennis O'keefe on evening news Feb 11, 2020. Piece is located at 32 min mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJqZLF3Noac

[goodgrowth]

Public Meeting Called to Look into Southlands Exit Process:

https://vocm.com/2020/02/20/public-meeting-called-to-look-into-southlands-exit-process/

[jjavman]

Public Meeting Called to Look into Southlands Exit Process:

https://vocm.com/2020/02/20/public-meeting-called-to-look-into-southlands-exit-process/

Just another symptom of the dysfunction caused by a fractured metro region.

[NewfBC]

Public Meeting Called to Look into Southlands Exit Process:

https://vocm.com/2020/02/20/public-meeting-called-to-look-into-southlands-exit-process/

Sexit? :)

Ron.