Halifax NHL Team

[q12]

Quebec, Halifax and Hamilton among cities favoured for NHL team: poll


HALIFAX - There's no denying Halifax has loyal hockey fans.

After all, the city is home to one of the most famous players in the world - Sidney Crosby - and other

But, people are once again wondering if Halifax is hockey-mad enough to host an NHL team.

A recent poll by Forum Research asked which Canadian city should be the next to get a franchise: While Quebec City - formerly the home of the Nordiques - came in first, Halifax tied with Hamilton as the second pick.


Read more on Global News: http://www.globalmaritimes.com/hockey+cities/6442665225/story.html

[someone123]

It's just a poll. One problem with Halifax is that the Metro Centre is too small.

I do think however that Halifax is probably pretty close to a city like Winnipeg as far as the potential of the market. Halifax itself is somewhat smaller than Winnipeg but an NHL team there would appeal to hockey fans in other parts of the region.

[Antigonish]

Considering the cost of tickets for each game, I would be surprised if Haligonians (and a few thousand other Maritimers) could afford to go 41 games a season. A CFL team would be more financially viable in my opinion.

[q12]

I do think however that Halifax is probably pretty close to a city like Winnipeg as far as the potential of the market. Halifax itself is somewhat smaller than Winnipeg but an NHL team there would appeal to hockey fans in other parts of the region.

I agree with you there. Manitoba is 1.25 million and the Maritimes is 1.85 Million.

http://i46.tinypic.com/35b759c.jpg

Take out Northern and Western New Brunswick and you still have nearly the same population.

Even just Mainland Nova Scotia, Moncton area & P.E.I. is about 1.1 million.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/demo02a-eng.htm

[spaustin]

You can't just add up the population of part of NB, PEI and mainland NS and declare that the population that could support a NHL or CFL team. Out-of-towners do help to boost attendance, but sports teams really live and die based on their own local population. More than an hour away is probably about the limit for the average spectator. With that in mind, it's worth noting that Winnipeg's metro area has just under 750,000 whereas we're somewhere just over 400,000. A CFL team might be able to make a go of it, but besides the outlier that is Saskatchewan, we would be the smallest market in the league. For an NHL team, there is no way that 400,000 is going to cut it. It's unfortunate, but it's the truth.

[q12]

You can't just add up the population of part of NB, PEI and mainland NS and declare that the population that could support a NHL or CFL team. Out-of-towners do help to boost attendance, but sports teams really live and die based on their own local population. More than an hour away is probably about the limit for the average spectator. With that in mind, it's worth noting that Winnipeg's metro area has just under 750,000 whereas we're somewhere just over 400,000. A CFL team might be able to make a go of it, but besides the outlier that is Saskatchewan, we would be the smallest market in the league. For an NHL team, there is no way that 400,000 is going to cut it. It's unfortunate, but it's the truth.

There is atleast 500,000 within an approximate hour or so of Halifax probably closer to 600,000. Not that far fetched. I'm pretty sure Winnipeg still would have sold all its season tickets with 600,000 people.

[someone123]

More than an hour away is probably about the limit for the average spectator.

If you go by this then actually the Winnipeg and Halifax markets are a bit closer in size than the CMA populations would suggest. I don't think there are many towns around the outskirts of Winnipeg, but I do think people living in towns like Windsor/Kentville/Wolfville, Lunenburg/Mahone Bay/Chester and Truro would make the trip down for an NHL game. I also think that you could get the rest of Atlantic Canada to identify with a team located in Halifax that focuses on the region -- you'd therefore have the regional population of around 2 million people watching TV and buying merchandise, plus the large population of expats.

The real point is that if Winnipeg has a team, Halifax is not actually that far off from being a viable city. It's easy to imagine things going the right way over the next 10-20 years. It would be a very different story if the NHL were limited to cities like Toronto or Montreal.

[-Harlington-]

Not gonna happen anytime soon but the potential is there, once a new arena and more of a population with money is in place I could see this happening in the next 30 years or so

if it did Id gladly give Moncton the CFL team but until then that would be nice to have and something Halifax could support no problem with the right infrastructure

[hamster]

Not gonna happen anytime soon but the potential is there, once a new arena and more of a population with money is in place I could see this happening in the next 30 years or so

if it did Id gladly give Moncton the CFL team but until then that would be nice to have and something Halifax could support no problem with the right infrastructure

Canadians love hockey on average a lot more than Americans. Attendance would probably be higher in Canada than a USA based team, but not sure how the tv contracts pay in Canada, since all the Canadian markets (unless the Maple Leafs allow a second GTA team) without an NHL team are much smaller than the USA city markets that they would probably have to relocate from.

Personally I think that Quebec City or a city in Ontario (Markham, Hamilton, or London, etc.) would make sense first for a NHL team.

Now you just need to find a rich owner who is willing to relocate the team for a better deal, or find an owner that is willing to sell for the a price that makes moving the team still make sense.

The relocation talk always involves the Phoenix Coyotes, but they owe so much on the sports complex debt, that I doubt they would let the team go without a big fight. So what team do you think would move to Canada, or would the league have to award a new franchise?

[MonctonRad]

if it did Id gladly give Moncton the CFL team but until then that would be nice to have and something Halifax could support no problem with the right infrastructure

I'd take that deal! :tup: :D

[Halifax Hillbilly]

Wasn't it only ten or fifteen years ago that every NHL market in Canada outside of Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal was considered iffy? Edmonton's owner is currently whining about how difficult it is to make money unless they get a new (taxpayer funded) arena. Some of it's maneuvering and selling the project for sure, but Edmonton is a lot bigger than Halifax.

What does Halifax really offer the NHL? No more eyes on TV, we're already watching HNIC. Not really a big corporate center. A modest population base, but there's bigger alternatives in Canada: Quebec, Toronto v.2, or Hamilton. Why would the NHL board of governors even consider allowing a franchise here? Yeah there's more than enough teams in trouble in the States, but there's also a number of locations that offer the league what they really want: more potential American TV viewers on national and regional broadcasts. Look at how long they are willing to hold out on troubled franchises like the Phoenix Coyotes. Teams in the states have way more growth potential than Canadian markets. Seattle, Portland, Kansas City, Las Vegas are all way more likely alternatives to Halifax. I see Winnipeg as an outlier: a very wealthy owner, a new venue, and a safe drop for a severely struggling franchise. Still, probably not the first choice of the NHL.

We can spend all day debating how many people live within an hour, or how many corporate sponsors there might be, or how big an arena we might need, or how many season tickets we could sell. In the end though, the big question is what does the NHL get? Nothing: a borderline (at best) market, and even worse the small number of fans we bring to the table are probably already watching NHL hockey. And they'll continue to watch hockey and buy merchandise without a team in Halifax. The NHL cringes every time a Canadian team goes deep into the playoffs, so why keep adding Canadian teams if you can help it. It doesn't help sell the game in the States, and passion or no passion that is where there's big money.

[Nouvellecosse]

I'd say you're probably right on all counts. :(

[q12]

Winnipeg is the smallest market in the league with the highest ticket prices and yet this still happened:

From Wikipedia:

Season ticket sales began June 1, 2011, with Manitoba Moose season ticket holders having priority. The team sought to sell 13,000 season tickets in an effort to prove its viability. Within the first three and a half hours the new franchise sold 1,870 packages to Moose season ticket holders. The number of season tickets sold jumped to 4,170 on June 2 and 7,158 on June 3. Season tickets opened to the general public on June 4 and sold out in just 17 minutes. Once the 'Drive to 13,000' was completed, TNSE started a season ticket waiting list, which was shut down after 8,000 people had signed up in two hours.

We sold out the Metro Centre during the playoffs. 11,000 tickets in 20 mins. And yes they are cheaper than the NHL. But people are crazy for their NHL teams in Halifax.
http://metronews.ca/voices/the-q-files/120053/mooseheads-sell-out-game-6-in-less-than-an-hour/

The NHL can have a half empty arena in the States or a jam packed one in Canada. Hockey will never be any bigger than it already is in the southern states.

Just to clarify that no one is predicting Halifax is getting a team tomorrow, however in a decade or two when the Metro Centre needs replacement I guarantee Halifax will be a contender. Problem we have here is we keep putting the "NO" in Nova Scotia instead believing anything is possible. It's time stop the negativity train and get on board the Halifax BOOM train.

I always thought the next step for a city after airport bus service was an NHL team... ;)

[PoscStudent]

Why hasn't Halifax been able to get the AHL back?

[q12]

Why hasn't Halifax been able to get the AHL back?

We don't want that garbage. CHL has elite players, AHL = leftovers. No offense to St. John's but the CHL is far more exciting than the AHL.

I've been to Halifax Citadel's and Nova Scotia Oiler's games. The Mooseheads are far more exciting.

[someone123]

I think the same arguments were made against Winnipeg a couple of years ago. It was an outlier, and now maybe Quebec City will also get a team. The fact is that there is a lot of money to be made in both of those markets.

I don't know the situation with Edmonton, but pro sports teams have turned extortion into an art form -- they constantly complain and threaten to leave, and many municipalities fall over themselves to provide gold-plated venues and sweetheart deals. That's not a good thing but it's how the industry works.

There have been plans from TCL to rebuild the Metro Centre and they could very easily aim for an MTS Centre-level venue.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

Winnipeg is the smallest market in the league with the highest ticket prices and yet this still happened:

Why do you think they are selling nothing but season tickets in Winnipeg? Could it be they are worried about the walk-up market not being strong enough, especially if the team struggles? They have no choice but having high prices, they are a tiny market with a small arena and a limited corporate base. It's not just about selling tickets, it's about selling luxury boxes and sponsorship.

The NHL will go to big lengths to make things work in the States, if not in the south then elsewhere. For the first time in a while they have some momentum: Crosby and the rebirth of the Penguins. Blackhawks and Bruins are back. LA with a cup win. Games are back on national TV. The Winter Classic is a modest success. It's not the NFL, or MLB, not even as big as the NBA, but revenue is up and TV ratings are up. I agree there are big problems with four or five franchises, but why jeopardize hard won gains in the States by moving franchises to small Canadian markets? Especially when there are other potential markets in the states to land those struggling teams, or potential solutions that don't involve relocation.

The NHL is a club, the goal is to make money, lots of money. I don't even think it's about whether an individual market can generate a profit (maybe Winnipeg can) but how much revenue are they bringing into the league as a whole. Small Canadian markets don't bring many fans, and they certainly don't bring new many new fans, and they bring zero fans that watch on American networks. That all means limited new revenue for the NHL. We're only good as a dumping ground for the broken beyond repair teams the NHL can't find another home for.

[q12]

Why do you think they are selling nothing but season tickets in Winnipeg? Could it be they are worried about the walk-up market not being strong enough, especially if the team struggles?

You've been brainwashed by the PRO USA Bettman. What team doesn't want a large number of season ticket holders. :koko:

Bettman admitted he was shocked when the season tickets sold out in 17 mins to the public.

Soccer's popular in Europe, Football is big in the USA, and Hockey is Canada's game. If you want to make money go where the fans are and stop listening to Bettman. Winnipeg is a prime example of where the NHL should be.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

You've been brainwashed by the PRO USA Bettman.

I despise Bettman, but he has bosses. If the NHL Board of Governors (team owners) did not like where Bettman was taking the league he would be out of a job. The owners think they can make more money in the States, even if they are a niche product. The league is now making $200 million dollars a year from the NBC deal. Of course they're excited and greedy for more. And since hockey is very regionally driven in the States they need teams to make that work. When their team is gone most Americans (and a lot of Canadians) stop watching. No American teams on TV means no American viewers. You can complain about that but that's how it works.

And don't just blame the American owners. MLSE was none too happy about the prospect of a team in Hamilton, judging by the Balsille debacle. And they won't say it publicly but the Habs probably aren't jumping for joy about another team in Quebec, their prime market. Most of the Canadian owners are happy to continue the American experiment, even subsidizing teams like Phoenix, because that's where the money is.

It's simple math. America has a huge population relative to Canada. It doesn't matter how much we love hockey, we've got to be close to saturation: 7 NHL teams, three CHL leagues, university hockey. You put a team in Halifax, how many NEW fans do you gain. Not too many. Anyone interested in hockey in Canada is already cheering for an NHL, watching HNIC and TSN. Maybe a team eeks out a tiny profit, but what does that do for MLSE, the Molsons, or any of the owners in Chicago, NY, Detroit, Boston, Philly. Diddly squat.

Do I like this. Not really. It's sad when TV ratings, corporate logos, and big time sponsors seem to mean more than quality hockey and player safety. But that's where we are. It's a big business, and hockey mad or not Halifax is a small city.

[Waye Mason]

Winnipeg's CMA has very nearly double Halifax CMA's population. You can't count on thousands of people driving from Fredericton, Sydney and Moncton for all regular season games. I don't think this is in any way viable.

[someone123]

Winnipeg's CMA has very nearly double Halifax CMA's population. You can't count on thousands of people driving from Fredericton, Sydney and Moncton for all regular season games.

This is pretty misleading. According to Google Maps, it takes 28 minutes to drive from City Hall to the northern edge of the Halifax CMA on the 101. The regional market for a team in Halifax is a bit over 600,000; this is the CMA plus people who would travel 30-60 minutes, not people in Fredericton. This total is about 2/3 the size of Winnipeg.

If you say that the people who have to drive 1-2 hours are worth, say, 5%, you might be looking at the 75% market. People in Halifax earn a bit more money on average too (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil107a-eng.htm).

To be honest I don't care about the NHL really, but I just don't think it's true that Halifax should be considered beyond the pale (particularly over a longer term time frame) when Winnipeg has a team and Quebec City might get one (and actually there was talk of bringing a team to Kitchener-Waterloo). In fact unless the NHL shifts away from the smaller cities and some of those teams fold again we will probably see this as a local issue in the future, particularly when Metro Centre upgrades are considered.

As an aside, it's important to understand that the CMA substantially understates the size of Halifax as a metropolitan and commuter region. In the closer parts of Hants and Colchester, 30%+ of people work in the Halifax CMA. Towns like Lunenburg, Windsor, and Wolfville are considered "moderately influenced" by the Halifax metro area, which means that 5-30% of their workers actually work in Halifax. This phenomenon does not necessarily exist in all other metropolitan areas to the same degree, because some CMAs, like Winnipeg or St. John's, have less population nearby, and in others like Hamilton people might actually work in another CMA like Toronto.

[PoscStudent]

We don't want that garbage. CHL has elite players, AHL = leftovers. No offense to St. John's but the CHL is far more exciting than the AHL.

I've been to Halifax Citadel's and Nova Scotia Oiler's games. The Mooseheads are far more exciting.

Yet attendance for the Mooseheads has not been strong.

[q12]

Yet attendance for the Mooseheads has not been strong.

The Mooseheads have been in the league since 1994. We have been number one in attendance in the Q league except for recent years that Quebec has become popular with a good team. The Mooseheads previous seasons (except for last year) we were the worst team in the standings and we were still were number two in the Q league for attendance.

The playoffs this year have had big sellouts of 11,000. The Halifax - Quebec Series broke the all-time attendance record for a series in the Q league.

The Mooseheads are one of the most profitable teams in the CHL.

The Halifax Citadels had poor attendance due to a crappy product.

[CorbeauNoir]

That's not really a huge accoplishment considering Halifax and QC's arenas are far larger than any other in the Q. Ditto for setting an attendance record when the two largest arenas in the league play in a full seven-game series. When every other team is playing in a 2-3k seat rink it's a bit of an empty claim.

Both the AHL and the CHL are fundamentally used as development leagues. I don't really get how one is 'elite' by virtue of its players happening to be a bit younger and less experienced.

[Waye Mason]

This is pretty misleading. According to Google Maps, it takes 28 minutes to drive from City Hall to the northern edge of the Halifax CMA on the 101. The regional market for a team in Halifax is a bit over 600,000; this is the CMA plus people who would travel 30-60 minutes, not people in Fredericton. This total is about 2/3 the size of Winnipeg.

If you say that the people who have to drive 1-2 hours are worth, say, 5%, you might be looking at the 75% market. People in Halifax earn a bit more money on average too (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil107a-eng.htm).
.

It is not misleading to compare CMA to CMA. If you want to compare 1-2 hour drives, your basically getting almost to Moncton, and to Antigonish, to Berwick, to Shelburne, maybe, what, 650,000 people? 750,000? Less than the Winnipeg CMA, still.

If you do the same thing in Winnipeg, looked at everyone within a 1-2 hour drive you end up with the same results for them... probably 1 million. Most of Manitoba lives in the south. You end up with far more people there then here, before you even get in to comparing average incomes (family, individual) and per capita GDP and such. AND without comparing ages... a lot of OLD people in rural Nova Scotia, we have an aging population out there, are they going to saddle up and drive 2 hours to get to a game in Halifax? Some will, most won't.

NHL average ticket - $51.00. Fan Price Index $300. Average season tickets ice $8,058.80 nosebleeds $946.02. That is a lot.

I don't think it is hating on Halifax to think this is a bit beyond....

[q12]

That's not really a huge accoplishment considering Halifax and QC's arenas are far larger than any other in the Q. Ditto for setting an attendance record when the two largest arenas in the league play in a full seven-game series. When every other team is playing in a 2-3k seat rink it's a bit of an empty claim.

Both the AHL and the CHL are fundamentally used as development leagues. I don't really get how one is 'elite' by virtue of its players happening to be a bit younger and less experienced.

You won't see Crosby in the AHL but you did see him in the CHL. Crosby = Elite.

CHL is an equivalent to the College football program in the States. AHL is like the CFL.

And as for the NHL, remember it's not suggested that Halifax get an NHL team tomorrow. It's probably 15 to 30 years away. Halifax will look a lot different then. There should be a lot less negativity in Halifax by then as well.

[PoscStudent]

The Mooseheads have been in the league since 1994. We have been number one in attendance in the Q league except for recent years that Quebec has become popular with a good team. The Mooseheads previous seasons (except for last year) we were the worst team in the standings and we were still were number two in the Q league for attendance.

The playoffs this year have had big sellouts of 11,000. The Halifax - Quebec Series broke the all-time attendance record for a series in the Q league.

The Mooseheads are one of the most profitable teams in the CHL.

The Halifax Citadels had poor attendance due to a crappy product.

They're still not selling out for non playoff games.

[q12]

They're still not selling out for non playoff games.

That may happen this year with the team they are building.

I don't see what your point is though. Quebec City doesn't sell out regular season games, but is on the verge of getting a NHL team that will probably be sold out for every game. The Manitoba Moose didn't sell out every game yet they do for the Winnipeg Jets.

Just because the Ice Caps sold out this season doesn't mean the AHL is an exciting product. You've had several years of no hockey, with a booming economy that was desperate to watch something and spend their money. Mile one stadium is tiny, only the size of the Halifax forum, not hard to sell-out. The St. John's Maple Leafs had far from fantastic attendance. http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=8181

[PoscStudent]

That may happen this year with the team they are building.

I don't see what your point is though. Quebec City doesn't sell out regular season games, but is on the verge of getting a NHL team that will probably be sold out for every game. The Manitoba Moose didn't sell out every game yet they do for the Winnipeg Jets.

Just because the Ice Caps sold out this season doesn't mean the AHL is an exciting product. You've had several years of no hockey, with a booming economy that was desperate to watch something and spend their money. Mile one stadium is tiny, only the size of the Halifax forum, not hard to sell-out. The St. John's Maple Leafs had far from fantastic attendance. http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=8181

More people have been going to the IceCaps than to the Mooseheads despite the supposedly better game. I just find it a bit odd if the hockey is so great why people aren't attending.

[q12]

More people have been going to the IceCaps than to the Mooseheads despite the supposedly better game. I just find it a bit odd if the hockey is so great why people aren't attending.

What? We had average attendance of 6608 this year. Ice Caps had 6297.

http://metronews.ca/voices/the-q-files/20338/mooseheads-attendance-finally-on-the-way-up/

The very nature of junior hockey is cyclical. When your team is the worst in the league for a couple years attendance is bound to suffer.

The Metro Centre also had Sky Boxes added that ruined the view for the top half of the upper bowl. So you really have to want see the game if your willing to pay to sit in the nosebleeds at the Metro Centre. If Halifax built a new bigger arena, attendance would defiantly go up. Just ask MonctonRad, if Moncton builds a new arena attendance is sure to rise for the wildcats. St. John's should have built a bigger arena.

[CorbeauNoir]

You won't see Crosby in the AHL but you did see him in the CHL. Crosby = Elite.

So what? Most of the Red Wings' elite players have spent YEARS in the AHL before graduating into the NHL. It's for that exact reason that their elite players can play into Detroit's puck-possession, two-way system of hockey as well as they do when they make it to the bigs.

You can't point to generational-level talent as a case study for an entire league, that's absurd. Not every player is going to peak the moment they're drafted.

[q12]

So what? Most of the Red Wings' elite players have spent YEARS in the AHL before graduating into the NHL. It's for that exact reason that their elite players can play such a tight two-way game when they make it to the bigs.

You can't point to generational-level talent as a case study for an entire league, that's absurd. Not every player is going to peak the moment they're drafted.

I won't argue with you about that.

I've lived in Halifax all my life. I've seen both AHL and CHL play here. The CHL is far more entertaining with younger players giving everything for the chance to be drafted into the NHL.

If you want to watch the AHL go ahead. I think most Canadians agree the CHL is a more entertaining product. In a country that loves its Hockey it's no wonder cities like Halifax, Vancouver, Calgary, Ottawa, Quebec City, London, Kitchener, Windsor, Kelowna, Saskatoon, Regina, Victoria, Moncton, Saint John etc. have embraced it over the AHL.

There is a reason there is only four AHL teams in Canada. Canadians know it sucks, and Americans are not hockey smart enough to realize it sucks. That's just my opinion, you’re entitled to yours.

[roccerfeller]

It is not misleading to compare CMA to CMA. If you want to compare 1-2 hour drives, your basically getting almost to Moncton, and to Antigonish, to Berwick, to Shelburne, maybe, what, 650,000 people? 750,000? Less than the Winnipeg CMA, still.

If you do the same thing in Winnipeg, looked at everyone within a 1-2 hour drive you end up with the same results for them... probably 1 million. Most of Manitoba lives in the south. You end up with far more people there then here, before you even get in to comparing average incomes (family, individual) and per capita GDP and such. AND without comparing ages... a lot of OLD people in rural Nova Scotia, we have an aging population out there, are they going to saddle up and drive 2 hours to get to a game in Halifax? Some will, most won't.

NHL average ticket - $51.00. Fan Price Index $300. Average season tickets ice $8,058.80 nosebleeds $946.02. That is a lot.

I don't think it is hating on Halifax to think this is a bit beyond....

I agree.

I'd personally love to see the NHL in Halifax

But it is not realistic. At least with cities like Winnipeg and Quebec City, never mind that they are about twice the size of Halifax, they have real/prospective owners in TNSE and PKP of Quebecor.

Who would be the owner of a ~150 million dollar franchise in Halifax?

They have/will have modern NHL ready arenas, in le nouveux colisée and MTS Centre. The current Pepsi colisée is old and severely outdated even with its current upgrades. It is only a placeholder for their $400 million dollar arena project scheduled to be completed by summer/fall 2015.

What is the news with building a new arena in Halifax? It only holds somewhere south of 11k seats (for hockey) iirc. Plus its fairly outdated.

And what of the corporate support? Quebec City is fairly self contained, being as it is a government city (second only to Ottawa) and there is a huge focus on the french market there (self containing business environment) notwithstanding many Montreal based corporations would be willing to support business revenues in Quebec city especially the dozens that are left out during Habs games.

Winnipeg is the only major city in Manitoba with all the government and provincial business focus, and it has more head offices of major corporations than either Edmonton or Ottawa, a history of an organization that has honed its skills with an AHL franchise, in partnership with the richest man in Canada, built a new arena in the city, built a decade plus of good relationship with the NHL, did their homework for several years following smaller market business models in Edmonton and Nashville, and still Winnipeg was heavily criticized about owning an NHL team. It's current success (by which I mean it is a profitable NHL franchise) has to do simply with the fact that ticket prices are high, people are willing to shed out money, its exceptionally hard to get a ticket to see a game, everything is privately owned by TNSE, and the entire business model is set up so that even in the worst of times losses could be offset.

Quebec City has also been in contact with Winnipeg and Edmonton regarding their business models and arena plans, and I think even Ottawa.

How many registered small business are there in Halifax?
Halifax and Dartmouth together show a rough result of about 11.3k businesses (http://www.manta.com/world/North+America/Canada/Nova+Scotia/) a decent gauge of people who would be buying box seats or club seats or a general gauge of business strength in the city.

Versus Quebec City (>19k) http://www.manta.com/world/North+America/Canada/Quebec/

Winnipeg (>25k)
http://www.manta.com/world/North+America/Canada/Manitoba/

Ottawa (>26k)
http://www.manta.com/world/North+America/Canada/Ontario/

Edmonton (>34k)
http://www.manta.com/world/North+America/Canada/Alberta/

And note I counted Dartmouth with Halifax. These are just urban businesses. If we took businesses nearby these other cities, they too would be higher in some cases (Winnipeg + Selkirk, Steinbach, Stonewall, Roblin), much higher in others (Edmonton + Fort Sask, Leduc, St Albert). Again, this is all disregarding that Halifax is much smaller than Quebec City or Winnipeg. Halifax itself has ~6.7k registered businesses. Halifax's small business market (including Dartmouth) is about the same size as Regina and Saskatoon. Though, in fairness to Halifax, the entire area in Nova Scotia is very spread out and there are multiple small businesses around the region. Nevermind that the Halifax CMA region has many more small businesses than Regina or Saskatoon, Halifax is the Atlantic Centre of big Canadian businesses in the country, and there are many head offices there. Halifax is an important transportation and shipping centre, moreso than either Regina or Saskatoon.


My point is not to be negative regarding Halifax's chances (as I said I would love to see the NHL there and I truly mean that) but to be realistic. Setting up false expectations and hopes are never good. At least those vying for a team in Quebec City have realistic grounds for that; there could be a functional franchise in that city. Halifax, I don't think so. That list is simply a "wish list" for Canadians, and if i was voting, I would vote for Quebec City and Halifax myself.

Halifax has struggle attracting the CFL which is much cheaper to function; how could it realistically attract the NHL?

[q12]

how could it realistically attract the NHL?

Good points.

It's not realistic today; we would need a new arena and a larger population with more businesses.

Some of us are thinking in 15 to 30 years from now it might be more realistic. We'll just have to wait and see.

No one is expecting Halifax to get a team tomorrow.

[roccerfeller]

Good points.

It's not realistic today; we would need a new arena and a larger population with more businesses.

Some of us are thinking in 15 to 30 years from now it might be more realistic. We'll just have to wait and see.

No one is expecting Halifax to get a team tomorrow.

I would agree with that. I can see 15-30 years as realistic, depending on growth trajectories and how well such growth is sustained there.

That said, it starts with a potential owner though.

For instance, Winnipeg and Quebec City were always capable of having teams. At the time the Jets 1.0 and Nordiques relocated, the main issues were independent of market support, specifically, and more interwoven with ownership issues (no one was able to afford to own either franchise, or no new owner was interested in owning a team in either market), which extended to issues with the arenas. Edmonton was about the same size as Winnipeg & Quebec City in the mid 90's, for example, and were minutes aware from moving to Houston, but an ownership group came together at the last minute and saved the franchise.

For Halifax corporate business/sponsorships and population are only one side of the coin; the other side is all how the team-based business would be run, and that starts with a viable owner and a viable arena; so even if in 30 years Halifax has the larger population and enough businesses to sustain a franchise, will it have an NHL-level arena and a willing owner? That is the important part.

My personal hesitation with an arena would be Halifax's (numerous city councils) lack of vision where 30 years ago to today the issue of even a CFL football stadium has not changed. I'm sure most citizens would agree with that side of the coin. That said, I do not live there so I cannot say I am more in tune with those going-ons than any of you guys, but I would assume that majority of you guys would wish there would be both a new arena and a new stadium

[someone123]

My personal hesitation with an arena would be Halifax's (numerous city councils) lack of vision where 30 years ago to today the issue of even a CFL football stadium has not changed. I'm sure most citizens would agree with that side of the coin. That said, I do not live there so I cannot say I am more in tune with those going-ons than any of you guys, but I would assume that majority of you guys would wish there would be both a new arena and a new stadium

It is very difficult to predict how stuff like this will go when you look at a time frame of more than 5 years or so. The Commonwealth Games bid from a few years ago could easily have resulted in a new stadium, for example. Some other projects like Harbour Solutions (sewage plants) or the central library seemed like they'd never be built, until one day they were. The current Metro Centre, built in the 1970's, was probably about the same relative expense for Halifax that an arena on the scale of Winnipeg's would be today.

HRM is actually a pretty big municipality with a lot of financial resources at its disposal. I don't think this is at all wise, but HRM council could finance a $60M stadium next week if they wanted to.

It's a particularly interesting time right now because Halifax is going to have a very different city council in a few months. The shipbuilding contract should also have a positive impact on the local economy.

[roccerfeller]

It is very difficult to predict how stuff like this will go when you look at a time frame of more than 5 years or so. The Commonwealth Games bid from a few years ago could easily have resulted in a new stadium, for example. Some other projects like Harbour Solutions (sewage plants) or the central library seemed like they'd never be built, until one day they were. The current Metro Centre, built in the 1970's, was probably about the same relative expense for Halifax that an arena on the scale of Winnipeg's would be today.

HRM is actually a pretty big municipality with a lot of financial resources at its disposal. I don't think this is at all wise, but HRM council could finance a $60M stadium next week if they wanted to.

It's a particularly interesting time right now because Halifax is going to have a very different city council in a few months. The shipbuilding contract should also have a positive impact on the local economy.

This is good to hear, because I was following (in and out) the Stadium updates in Halifax. I am a huge proponent of CFL expansion to Atlantic Canada and, for multiple reasons, feel that Halifax would be the best choice overall for a franchise.

In the near future, a CFL franchise is very much possible given a concrete stadium plan. Ownership could be public. It would also give a proper "big league" team for Halifax to have. Though, is $60MM feasible for a CFL-build stadium? I know this is the "NHL in Halifax" thread so I mean not to derail or anything, but current CFL stadiums are getting into the $200MM range.

Are we looking at simply seats + field for $60MM?

The relevance here is as it related to a potential NHL-level arena in Ottawa. Bear in mind, the arena going up in Quebec City will be about $400MM, and the MTS Centre, though cost roughly $133MM to build, is about $175MM today with inflation. That does not take into consideration that the $133MM figure is based on construction costs, which were set in 2003 but the following year doubled (so if the same arena was built today in Winnipeg it would cost around $265MM)

[someone123]

I thought they scaled back the Quebec City proposal from $400M. To me, that never sounded like a fiscally prudent plan, and I would not want Halifax to engage in similar NHL hysteria. I mentioned the $60M number because that would have been a starting point for the women's FIFA stadium. It would not have been built to CFL standards but it would have been a step in the right direction. It looks now like SMU's stadium will be getting upgrades instead, so perhaps that will become a 15,000 or so seat venue that can be improved down the road.

An NHL team is more expensive to run than a CFL team but right now I think it would be easier to build an MTS Centre-level arena than it would be to build a $200M CFL-level stadium. A new arena could be used immediately by a couple of pro sports teams (hockey and I guess basketball) and year-round events. A stadium is mostly only good for university football and seasonal events right now.

I think Halifax is the best potential Atlantic market for CFL too, but even if the hype about Moncton is true it's not a reason to rush into building an expensive venue for a team that does not exist. Halifax needs to develop its own facilities in a way that makes economic sense based on its own needs and finances.

[roccerfeller]

I thought they scaled back the Quebec City proposal from $400M. To me, that never sounded like a fiscally prudent plan, and I would not want Halifax to engage in similar NHL hysteria. I mentioned the $60M number because that would have been a starting point for the women's FIFA stadium. It would not have been built to CFL standards but it would have been a step in the right direction. It looks now like SMU's stadium will be getting upgrades instead, so perhaps that will become a 15,000 or so seat venue that can be improved down the road.

An NHL team is more expensive to run than a CFL team but right now I think it would be easier to build an MTS Centre-level arena than it would be to build a $200M CFL-level stadium. A new arena could be used immediately by a couple of pro sports teams (hockey and I guess basketball) and year-round events. A stadium is mostly only good for university football and seasonal events right now.

I think Halifax is the best potential Atlantic market for CFL too, but even if the hype about Moncton is true it's not a reason to rush into building an expensive venue for a team that does not exist. Halifax needs to develop its own facilities in a way that makes economic sense based on its own needs and finances.

Well said, and might I add, quite sensible. I too agree that an arena would be a better bit in that sense. A CFL-size stadium would be better built if there was reassurance that a tenant would come with it, but given that regular concerts would service the area more than a stadium, an arena would be more beneficial overall. Considering you're closer to the pulse of Halifax, you would understand this more and I'll take your word for it. I still would selfishly like to see the CFL in Atlantic Canada sooner than later though :)

For the record, yes $400MM is the cap for the Quebec City arena. They are going to try to keep it south of that number, but the funding is signed, sealed and in place to cover that number. Actual construction is slated to begin September 2012, with a tentative release date for September 2015, and right now they are just preparing the final documents and setting everything up for a timely ground breaking ceremony in September. The reason it will be $400MM though is because it comes with a slew of additional developments (think Ottawa), will be exceptionally state of the art (modelled after Consol Energy Centre in Pittsburgh), and the mayor feels the need to go all out. There are people in Quebec City who feel they could do with a smaller, cheaper arena akin to the MTS Centre minus the additional fluff, but this is ultimately the direction they've chosen.

To add credence to your point of view, Quebec City was also courting the CFL, however turned their attention to a new arena. Disregarding the potential to house an NHL team, the arena would be "better for the community overall" versus a football stadium solely intended for CFL use. So the political powers that be in Quebec City would agree with you there ;)

[Vl@dy]

I know, this is the NHL's post, i'm sorry, but :
Is there a soccer team in Halifax?

[JHikka]

There isn't going to be an NHL team in Halifax for a long, long time. End of story.

[MonctonRad]

:previous:

My thoughts are that Halifax might get an NHL team by 2096, when there is a 60 team NHL.

In other words, my feelings regarding the probability of an NHL team in Halifax are pretty similar to the typical Haligonian's feelings regarding the probability of a CFL team in Moncton. :)

[macgregor]

I know, this is the NHL's post, i'm sorry, but :
Is there a soccer team in Halifax?

We have senior Men's leagues - a lower tier than most.

The nearest MLS team (our "Premier League") is in Montreal.

[Vl@dy]

We have senior Men's leagues - a lower tier than most.

The nearest MLS team (our "Premier League") is in Montreal.


Ah thanks.
Montrèal Impact (the another team is FC Toronto), is the team with my countrymen Di Vaio, Corradi, Nesta, Ferrari ecc.
Sorry for the ignorance, but in Nova Scotia, the soccer is not a sport much follow, right?

[RyeJay]

:previous:

My thoughts are that Halifax might get an NHL team by 2096, when there is a 60 team NHL.

In other words, my feelings regarding the probability of an NHL team in Halifax are pretty similar to the typical Haligonian's feelings regarding the probability of a CFL team in Moncton. :)

Framing a comparison of Halifax to Moncton isn't typical for Haligonians. Most people in Halifax don't even know there is an attempt in Moncton to attract a CFL team.

[q12]

My thoughts are that Halifax might get an NHL team by 2096, when there is a 60 team NHL.

With a population of around 2 Million in the year 2096 I would hope we could land one a few years before that.

Moncton still won't have matched Winnipeg's current popultation, of course the entire province of New Brunswick doesn't right now either.

No matter what, Halifax is next in line after Quebec City and a 2nd Southern Ontario team in terms of populations and markets that could support an NHL team in the future.

2011 estimates
1 Toronto 5,838,800
2 Montreal 3,908,700
3 Vancouver 2,419,700
4 Calgary 1,265,100
5 Ottawa 1,258,900
6 Edmonton 1,196,300
7 Winnipeg 762,800
8 Quebec 761,700
9 Hamilton 750,200
10 Kitchener–Cambridge–Waterloo 498,500
11 London 496,900
12 Halifax 408,200
13 St. Catharines–Niagara 405,300

The year 2030 could be more realistic.

[q12]

TAYLOR: The Nova Scotia Lobsters: Some think it’s not far-fetched

thechronicleherald.ca (http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/393693-taylor-the-nova-scotia-lobsters-some-think-it-s-not-far-fetched)

January 7, 2013 - 8:13pm BY ROGER TAYLOR | BUSINESS COLUMNIST

After being in the NHL doldrums for so long, now that the league has a tentative deal, it is time for fans to rejoice again.

And, for some Nova Scotians, the contemplation of a National Hockey League franchise in Halifax doesn’t seem that far-fetched.

After all, the latest pact is supposed to help bolster small-market teams.

That fact may have helped boost hope for those who dream of the Nova Scotia Lobsters (or some other nickname) playing in Halifax someday. In an interview on Hockey Night in Canada five years ago, NHL commissioner Gary Bettman even allowed that a Halifax franchise was a possibility.

Read more here (http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/393693-taylor-the-nova-scotia-lobsters-some-think-it-s-not-far-fetched)

[worldlyhaligonian]

All Halifax media is complete rubbish. Never heard this story before... great journalism!


Facepalm.

[spaustin]

The argument that Halifax could do as well as some Southern US teams actually says it all... It'll take decades more of population and economic growth for a team to be viable here or the league will have to drastically change. Anything else is just wishful thinking.

[Keith P.]

When the NHL contracts to about 16 teams, then maybe I'll bother being interested again. For the last decade or more they have been a nonentity.

[JHikka]

The argument that Halifax could do as well as some Southern US teams actually says it all... It'll take decades more of population and economic growth for a team to be viable here or the league will have to drastically change. Anything else is just wishful thinking.

Indeed. For Halifax, don't even let an NHL franchise cross your mind until at least 2025.

[J_Murphy]

[QUOTE=MonctonRad;5789708]:previous:

My thoughts are that Halifax might get an NHL team by 2096, when there is a 60 team NHL.

QUOTE]

By this time, NHL tickets will cost at least $2,000 each and players will make an average salary of $1B.:haha:

[Hali87]

It's never seemed like a realistic possibility before, but consider that the Canadian economy is currently doing much better than the American economy (fiscal cliff?), and further, that the Halifax economy did not take a major hit during the recession the way that many similar-sized cities in Canada did (particularly in southern Ontario), and the city is building not only its international brand, and its reputation as a hockey town, but also its reputation as a place with steady population and economic growth, ensured in part by the shipbuilding contract. Honestly, if there were enough momentum within the community, I believe that we could have a shot at an NHL team within say the next decade. Most haligonians I know would strongly prefer and NHL team over a CFL team, for example. And between Saskatoon, Hamilton/SW ONT, Quebec City and Halifax, I would be surprised if at least two of these cities do not have an NHL team by 2025.

[JHikka]

The one problem right now facing this idea is that the NHL is in no position to expand, and as it is right now no teams are up for relocation as the current mandate of the owners under Bettman has been to retain all teams in their current locations (Atlanta notwithstanding). On the topic of Atlanta, if Halifax were to gain an NHL team, an owner would have to be found, and presumably large economic backing via sponsorships or agreements. The NHL is a whole 'nother ball game above the CFL in terms of economics. With that being said, ten years is a long time from now, and that would be the absolute soonest that Halifax would even be considered. In the eyes of the NHL, Seattle, Southern Ontario, and Quebec City are currently ahead of Halifax in the line for NHL franchises. In ten, 15, 25 years, that may change.

Just as Halifax need a new stadium to host a CFL team, a new arena would also be required for a theoretical NHL team. Presumably with minimum capacity of ~16,000, including luxury suites and other amenities.

*Sigh*, if North America had a promotion/relegation system for sports we wouldn't even be having this discussion, as the Mooseheads would be Halifax's hockey team. Presumably there would be smaller teams in Dartmouth/Cole Harbour/etc., and their competing in the NHL would be determined by how strong their fanbase and youth/training facilities are.

[Duff]

Halifax mayor believes city could support NHL team

Halifax Mayor Mike Savage has a serious case of hockey fever.
Now that the National Hockey League lockout is over and the players are back on the ice, the mayor says Halifax could have its own NHL team some day.
While Savage has not officially announced his intent to bring a team to the city, he says the idea has merit.
He believes that instead of just focusing on a new stadium, the city should also consider having an NHL team to call its own.

Read more: http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/halifax-mayor-believes-city-could-support-nhl-team-1.1134992#ixzz2JSzoAygu

Video - http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/halifax-mayor-believes-city-could-support-nhl-team-1.1134992

[kph06]

Not likely to happen anytime soon. However, the interesting part of the reprot was that after the Nova Centre is built, the plan is to give the Metro Centre a makeover, including new seats, expanded seating and more boxes. Not sure how they'd do the later two without major structural changes, but it would be interesting to see more details on this.

[beyeas]

Video - http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/halifax-mayor-believes-city-could-support-nhl-team-1.1134992

This just seems like pandering to the masses. As much as I would love to have an NHL team here, I don't see why we are even having the discussion at this point. Until we have an actual transit system that works, and multiple other public infrastructure needs filled (e.g. a stadium, and actual performing arts centre etc) there is no sense discussing this. It will take us a long long time to meet the higher priority needs in this city, in particular given the budget constraints.

[cormiermax]

Not likely to happen anytime soon. However, the interesting part of the reprot was that after the Nova Centre is built, the plan is to give the Metro Centre a makeover, including new seats, expanded seating and more boxes. Not sure how they'd do the later two without major structural changes, but it would be interesting to see more details on this.

Yeah I had no idea something like that was in the works.

[JHikka]

Not likely to happen anytime soon. However, the interesting part of the reprot was that after the Nova Centre is built, the plan is to give the Metro Centre a makeover, including new seats, expanded seating and more boxes. Not sure how they'd do the later two without major structural changes, but it would be interesting to see more details on this.

I'd be interested to see how much expanded seating they would be adding. Anything less than 15,000 is not going to land you an NHL team. Given the age of the Metro Centre a new arena would be preferable for the long run, but a stadium is first and we all know the fun that has brought..

Besides, Halifax is still behind Seattle/Portland, Quebec, Hamilton, Markham, and hell, probably Saskatchewan as well. Not in the near or most likely distant future.

[-Harlington-]

Once the nova centre is built they could demolish the current WTCC and expand the seating or just build a whole new one all together there
could probably get around 15000 out of that.

[cormiermax]

I'd be interested to see how much expanded seating they would be adding. Anything less than 15,000 is not going to land you an NHL team. Given the age of the Metro Centre a new arena would be preferable for the long run, but a stadium is first and we all know the fun that has brought..

Besides, Halifax is still behind Seattle/Portland, Quebec, Hamilton, Markham, and hell, probably Saskatchewan as well. Not in the near or most likely distant future.

I often hear people put Saskatchewan before Halifax, but have no idea why?

[kph06]

I would rather see a new facility, it's so cut up now, renovating it up to 15,000 seats wouldn't be worth it. Adding boxes to the end without them is the only option I see, but that doesn't even work well as they would be excluded from concerts.

[Acajack]

I often hear people put Saskatchewan before Halifax, but have no idea why?

Proven long-term support for pro sports (Roughriders)

Out-of-proportion (relative to population) producer of NHL players - way out of proportion I think

[cormiermax]

Proven long-term support for pro sports (Roughriders)

Out-of-proportion (relative to population) producer of NHL players - way out of proportion I think

The latter could be said for Nova Scotia as well could it not? As for Roughriders support, the CFL is a long way off from the NHL.

[someone123]

I am not sure that a CFL team is actually a positive in terms of supporting NHL in a small region. It's pretty much moot since neither area will get a team anytime soon, but as I posted in the Canada section people tend to underestimate the Maritimes.

One thing Westerners often don't understand is how geographically small the region is. The central part of the Maritimes has about 50% more people than Saskatchewan and fits into about 10% of Saskatchewan's land area.

CMAs are misleading when you're talking about regional markets where there is little or no competition. The number of people who would be able to get to a downtown Halifax arena in an hour or so is actually pretty close to Winnipeg (because Winnipeg does not have nearby Bridgewater/Lunenburg/Windsor/Kentville/Truro/etc. type towns), and the market for TV or selling merchandise may be larger.

[q12]

I'd be interested to see how much expanded seating they would be adding. Anything less than 15,000 is not going to land you an NHL team. Given the age of the Metro Centre a new arena would be preferable for the long run, but a stadium is first and we all know the fun that has brought..

Besides, Halifax is still behind Seattle/Portland, Quebec, Hamilton, Markham, and hell, probably Saskatchewan as well. Not in the near or most likely distant future.

A new arena would be necessary regardless for an NHL team, just look at Hamilton. They have a big enough arena now but said they would still need to build a new one if they acquired an NHL franchise.

I would put Halifax as 3rd in line after Quebec and a Southern Ontario team. Halifax will look dramatically different in 10 years, and I would not be surprised this idea has real momentum by then.

[Nilan8888]

Having worked in Markham, I would be DRASTICALLY disappointed if it got a team before Halifax.

Hamilton I could see. Markham???

Plus, the NHL should consider scrubbing Anaheim, Columbus, Florida, Carolina if Seattle doesn't have a team. I think it's silly for these teams to represent an aggregate community or state. Be from the CITY.

[JHikka]

The latter could be said for Nova Scotia as well could it not? As for Roughriders support, the CFL is a long way off from the NHL.

Not entirely. The number of players in the NHL from Saskatchewan is greater than the number from Nova Scotia. In terms of Canadian sport I wouldn't put the CFL too far off from the NHL, unless of course you're talking about corporate support and TV.

One thing Westerners often don't understand is how geographically small the region is. The central part of the Maritimes has about 50% more people than Saskatchewan and fits into about 10% of Saskatchewan's land area.

CMAs are misleading when you're talking about regional markets where there is little or no competition. The number of people who would be able to get to a downtown Halifax arena in an hour or so is actually pretty close to Winnipeg (because Winnipeg does not have nearby Bridgewater/Lunenburg/Windsor/Kentville/Truro/etc. type towns), and the market for TV or selling merchandise may be larger.

You mention the Maritimes having 50% more people but then cut down the driving distance to an hour away...why? Without Southern NB and perhaps PEI the Halifax NHL team today stands even less of a chance of having the fanbase needed to survive. In 25 years? Maybe Halifax on its own could work, but as it stands right now it would not.


Plus, the NHL should consider scrubbing Anaheim, Columbus, Florida, Carolina if Seattle doesn't have a team. I think it's silly for these teams to represent an aggregate community or state. Be from the CITY.

You're joking, right? The teams you just listed were (East LA, Columbis, Miami, and Raleigh). And frankly, Anaheim, Columbus, and Carolina all have strong fanbases, whereas the arena that Florida plays out of makes money hand-over-fist each fiscal year. They aren't going anywhere. I agree that Seattle should have a team but prior to this year and they had no owner and no prospects of a new arena being built, which is why they didn't have a team.

Do you think they should be the Denver Avalanche? Newark Devils? Nassau County Islanders? Minneapolis-Saint Paul Wild? :rolleyes:

[Acajack]

The latter could be said for Nova Scotia as well could it not? As for Roughriders support, the CFL is a long way off from the NHL.

Not really.

Both provinces have around a million people and there are 6 NHLers from Nova Scotia and 37 from Saskatchewan.

The Riders average around 30,000 fans a game with an average ticket price of about 40 dollars. Total attendance for a season is in the 250-300,000 range.

The best comparison for Halifax is the Mooseheads with an average ticket price of about 15 dollars a game. Average seasonal attendance for them is around 200,000.

Plus Regina already has a 30,000 seat stadium, and is going ahead with the construction of a brand new slightly bigger one that frankly looks like it will be amazing (by CFL standards anyway).

The attendance in Regina at CFL games proves that people from across the province will regularly travel to the capital city to attend sporting events. This is a demonstrated fact.

There is lots of talk about people travelling to Halifax from, say, Moncton, to NHL or CFL games but this has yet to be demonstrated.

Bottom line: SK has a proven track record. Halifax does not. And I say this even though I would love for Halifax to get a CFL or an NHL club. Ideally both.

[someone123]

You mention the Maritimes having 50% more people but then cut down the driving distance to an hour away...why? Without Southern NB and perhaps PEI the Halifax NHL team today stands even less of a chance of having the fanbase needed to survive. In 25 years? Maybe Halifax on its own could work, but as it stands right now it would not.

My point there was that the Halifax market is a bit bigger than it looks relative to Winnipeg, which already has an NHL team, even if you don't include people who are a bit farther away and may be less likely to make the trip (the same thing is true for Southern Ontario vs. the Prairies, but Ontario already has two teams so the dynamic is a little different).

The right way to look at this is that attendance is inversely proportional to distance from the venue, all else being equal. Factors like disposable income are also important. New Brunswick does make up part of the market of regional things that are put in Halifax, but a person in Saint John on average is probably not going to make the trip as often as somebody in Dartmouth. Maybe they'd be equally likely to watch a game on TV or buy a jersey; I have no idea.

The NHL thing isn't going to happen for a while, but over a time frame of 10-20 years it's not a particularly far-fetched scenario. All of the economic factors people talk about like ticket prices or the cost of running a team can change.

[q12]

Halifax Moosehead's average attendance for this year is likely going to be about 300,000.

Halifax is averaging 8500 per home game.
Saskatoon is averaging 5500 per home game (Saskatoon is hosting the memorial cup. Halifax's highest attendance before this year was when they hosted the Memorial cup).
Regina is averaging 4000 per home game.


When it comes to a NHL team :takemymoney:

[JHikka]

Halifax Moosehead's average attendance for this year is likely going to be about 300,000.

Halifax is averaging 8500 per home game.
Saskatoon is averaging 5500 per home game (Saskatoon is hosting the memorial cup. Halifax's highest attendance was when they hosted the Memorial cup).
Regina is averaging 4000 per home game.

And in 10-11 Halifax' average attendance was 5,330. Attendances, particularly for junior hockey, will go up and down depending on the quality of team/playoff ranking.

I'm curious where you are getting your numbers from.

[q12]

And in 10-11 Halifax' average attendance was 5,330. Attendances, particularly for junior hockey, will go up and down depending on the quality of team/playoff ranking.

I'm curious where you are getting your numbers from.

I find this site is always up to date.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/qmjhl19702013.html

Halifax was one of the worst teams in the league. Saint John won the championship and we still had higher attendance...

[Dmajackson]

IMO I think a NHL team is unfeasible at this current moment. However, I think we could look at one in about 20-25 years time after the shipbuilding winds down and we have close to 500'000 people in addition to the growth in Moncton.

For now I vote that we keep on breeding some of the best players in the NHL. Let Quebec get a team (which theoretically could draw people from as far away as Edmunston), followed by a Southern Ontarian team.

Once we do get a team though we'll have to remind people that we tend to whoop a** at things we create so hockey should be a piece of cake.

Halifax Origins (in the spirit of our hockey legacy)
Halifax Hurricanes (we can call the fans Juan-a-be's)
Halifax Nauticals
Halifax Defenders
Halifax Explosion / Exploders
Nova Scotia Highlanders
Maritime Uniters

[JHikka]

Halifax was one of the worst teams in the league. Saint John won the championship and we still had higher attendance...
Are you trying to take a shot at my location or something?:haha: The Metro Centre holds~4,000 more than Harbour Station...even if the average was within 1,000 Halifax should be ashamed of themselves, but it isn't so it's a non-factor. My point was that attendances fluctuate depending on how well the team is doing that year. These fluctuations are higher as the attendance number increases. I can guarantee you that Halifax' attendance will go down again as the team goes back into its downcycle.

[Nilan8888]

You're joking, right? The teams you just listed were (East LA, Columbis, Miami, and Raleigh). And frankly, Anaheim, Columbus, and Carolina all have strong fanbases, whereas the arena that Florida plays out of makes money hand-over-fist each fiscal year. They aren't going anywhere. I agree that Seattle should have a team but prior to this year and they had no owner and no prospects of a new arena being built, which is why they didn't have a team.

Do you think they should be the Denver Avalanche? Newark Devils? Nassau County Islanders? Minneapolis-Saint Paul Wild?

I think it's dumb that Miami has a team and Seattle does not by virtue of where it is on the map. I think it's dumb that Seattle does not have one but Colombus and Raleigh do by virtue of their respective sizes.

Anaheim should just call themselves the Los Angeles something, like other teams that share a city (LA itself with the Raiders and Rams once upon a time, NY with the Rangers and Islanders). Plus being named after a Disney movie is silly.

[JHikka]

I think it's dumb that Miami has a team and Seattle does not by virtue of where it is on the map. I think it's dumb that Seattle does not have one but Colombus and Raleigh do by virtue of their respective sizes.

Anaheim should just call themselves the Los Angeles something, like other teams that share a city (LA itself with the Raiders and Rams once upon a time, NY with the Rangers and Islanders). Plus being named after a Disney movie is silly.

The NHL expansion of the 1990s was in the aim of getting a national TV deal in the states, which Florida would play a big part of. The Pac-NW, at the time, still had the Sonics, and there was no owner for a franchise. There was, and still is, an owner for the Panthers. In the North American franchise system locations aren't picked because of where they are or how big they are, but whether or not there is an owner and a fanbase. I imagine we'll be seeing a team in Seattle within 10 years now that there is interest and a new rink being built. If you don't like teams in certain places being in the league I guess that would make you a bigger fan of the club & association system rather than the franchise system of sport structure.

Anaheim can call themselves whatever they like. They clearly don't have a problem with their name and neither do their fans. Do you feel the same about the Anaheim Angels of Los Angeles in the MLB? I don't see what difference it makes if they're called Anaheim, or Los Angeles, or whatever else they like. Does it really bother you that much?

[Trevor3]

I think it's dumb that Miami has a team and Seattle does not by virtue of where it is on the map. I think it's dumb that Seattle does not have one but Colombus and Raleigh do by virtue of their respective sizes.

Anaheim should just call themselves the Los Angeles something, like other teams that share a city (LA itself with the Raiders and Rams once upon a time, NY with the Rangers and Islanders). Plus being named after a Disney movie is silly.

Miami was the product of the NHL's big southern expansion of the early 90s. They wanted in with the huge population of Florida and figured 2 teams would result in a natural rivalry and help prop each other up. Thus we got Tampa and Miami (now in Sunrise, FL by the way, not Miami). The stadium makes money but the team is essentially an afterthought. But it's all the same company so they won't go anywhere anytime soon.

Columbus was, in my opinion, the smartest move by the NHL in its 90s expansion aside from going back to Minnesota. Columbus has a suprisingly large population and absolutely no major league presence aside from the Blue Jackets. Columbus had one of the best attendance records in the NHL for their first few seasons despite the fact they were god awful year after year. And it took a cup win in Raleigh to get the ball rolling. If they continue to sit low in the standings their attendance will start to fall much like Dallas did.

[resetcbu1]

Honestly. I believe that all the population stats CHL attendance stats and blah blah blah all moot, in that I don't think Halifax would have any problems selling out a 15000-17000 person arena.... This is Canada and we are hockey crazy coast to coast and any city 400000+ in this country would more than likely have a good fanbase

[JHikka]

Honestly. I believe that all the population stats CHL attendance stats and blah blah blah all moot, in that I don't think Halifax would have any problems selling out a 15000-17000 person arena.... This is Canada and we are hockey crazy coast to coast and any city 400000+ in this country would more than likely have a good fanbase

Franchise System = Owner & Arena > Fanbase

[resetcbu1]

Franchise System = Owner & Arena > Fanbase

obviously an arena and ownership would be required , not sure how that affects whether or not a city could support a franchise if those were in place I think those two thing are a given?????

[JHikka]

obviously an arena and ownership would be required , not sure how that affects whether or not a city could support a franchise if those were in place I think those two thing are a given?????

For Halifax? Currently there's no owner, or suitable arena, and the fanbase size is suspect at this point.

Give it 25 years.

[q12]

Edmonton is playing Phoenix tonight in an arena that's only 2/3rds full, it's sad.

Phoenix is only averaging 12,000 so far this season.

[Helladog]

NHL in Halifax may seem a bit far fetched, but Halifax is in a state of figuring out what it wants to become in the future. 5-10 years go by really fast. I'd attend several games in a season if you had a team.

[MonctonRad]

For Halifax? Currently there's no owner, or suitable arena, and the fanbase size is suspect at this point.

Give it 25 years.

Agreed.

I wish Halifax well as far as the NHL is concerned, and if you guys ever get a team I would certainly consider driving down several times per year to catch a game.

but

- The Metro Centre is a non-starter and there is no way that I could see how it could be upgraded to NHL standards. With the new WTCC under construction, you could knock down the old one (as well as the current Metro Centre) and build fresh on that site, but that would be a very expensive proposition (say $400M or so). Is this financially viable?
- Who would form the ownership group? It seems to me we would have enough trouble coming up with an ownership group for a CFL team let alone an NHL team. There is almost an order of magnitude of difference in terms of cost and risk between the CFL and NHL. Who do you think would take this on?
- Is there a fan base in Halifax large enough to buy 12,000 (or so) season's tickets at inflated NHL prices. It is the gate that drives the success of most NHL franchises and you can't rely on game day ticket sales. You need season's ticket holders filling about 80% of the seats. Are there enough interested people in HRM who are wealthy enough to purchase these tickets?

All good questions.....

[Nilan8888]

The NHL expansion of the 1990s was in the aim of getting a national TV deal in the states, which Florida would play a big part of. The Pac-NW, at the time, still had the Sonics, and there was no owner for a franchise. There was, and still is, an owner for the Panthers. In the North American franchise system locations aren't picked because of where they are or how big they are, but whether or not there is an owner and a fanbase. I imagine we'll be seeing a team in Seattle within 10 years now that there is interest and a new rink being built. If you don't like teams in certain places being in the league I guess that would make you a bigger fan of the club & association system rather than the franchise system of sport structure.

Yep. That's why I had a big problem when they switched the names of the divisions from the old Patrick/Norris/etc. system. It's also why I went from a big hockey fan once upon a time to a casual viewer (these days, if that).


Anaheim can call themselves whatever they like. They clearly don't have a problem with their name and neither do their fans. Do you feel the same about the Anaheim Angels of Los Angeles in the MLB? I don't see what difference it makes if they're called Anaheim, or Los Angeles, or whatever else they like. Does it really bother you that much?

Actually, it's the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim, who were so proud of that name that everyone called them that for years and years... oh wait, except they didn't. They were just called the LA Angels. When I was growing up, if you said "Hey look, I got the new card of Reggie Jackson with the Anaheim Angels!" nobody would have known what you were talking about. In fact, if you look at the history, the name changes have to mostly do with Disney (again).

Does it bother me that much? Well I'm not out protesting in the street if that's what you mean. Does it mean that much to you for me to post a different opinion?

[JHikka]

Yep. That's why I had a big problem when they switched the names of the divisions from the old Patrick/Norris/etc. system. It's also why I went from a big hockey fan once upon a time to a casual viewer (these days, if that).

Does it bother me that much? Well I'm not out protesting in the street if that's what you mean. Does it mean that much to you for me to post a different opinion?

My contention is that it seems as though you're a fan of the brand that the NHL markets and not actually a hockey fan at all, because if you were a hockey fan you'd watch for the sport regardless and not for what teams are called or what divisions they play under.

That's all.:tup:

[Nilan8888]

If that's the case, why would I care about the re-naming of the divisions? I should prefer the new names instead of the old. Do I care for a brand? Sure -- if you want to define it that way: but that's not the one that's marketed today.

My contention would be that you didn't like my opinion, and so you've used some the ol' passive-aggression to justify what you're feeling. Unfortunate.

That's all.

[scooby074]

Downtown is not the ideal place for the new stadium that would be required IF the NHL was ever to come to Halifax.

Parking and traffic on any night when there is something on at the Metro Centre is a nightmare now, and that is in its current configuration, imagine if there were 5000-7000 more people trying to get to a game, especially if they were from out of town and not familiar with the city.

Anyways, it's a moot point. As much as I want to see it, the NHL wont be here for a LONG time. There are markets way ahead on the list, plus the current management of the NHL is much more focused on the USA than Canada (as wrong as that is).

[q12]

SSE will attempt to host NHL Heritage Classic — if Halifax builds CFL stadium

BY ALEXANDER QUON GLOBAL NEWS
Posted November 6, 2019 5:49 pm

The organization attempting to bring a CFL franchise to Halifax says they are prepared to submit a bid to host an NHL Heritage Classic game in Halifax if city council votes to approve the construction of a CFL stadium.

“Immediately after a [successful] vote… we will send in a bid for a Heritage Classic game,” Anthony LeBlanc, founding partner of Schooners Sports and Entertainment (SSE), told Global News on Wednesday in a phone interview.

“[An event like the Heritage Classic] illustrates the potential benefits of a stadium of that size.”

Discussions about hosting an NHL Heritage Classic game in Halifax began a year ago, LeBlanc said

Read more here:
https://globalnews.ca/news/6135914/schooners-sports-nhl-heritage-classic-halifax/

[OldDartmouthMark]

And if that's successful, then the next step is an NHL team in Halifax. All that would be required is a larger arena, or modifications to the Metro... errr... Scotiabank Centre.

Should be no problem as we are already going to get a stadium, this would be the next logical step.

Uhhh... oh yeah... the stadium... :rolleyes:

[Calgarian]

Halifax won't get an NHL team lol, it's way too small. I love the idea of it, but can that city consistently fill 16-18000 seats 41+ nights year over year? Quebec City and Hamilton will both have NHL before Halifax does, shit I bet BC gets another team first.

Lets see how Halifax does with CFL for a few years before we up the ante.

[MonctonRad]

:previous:

I think OldDartmouthMark was being facetious. :)

[q12]

I would guess 2030's Halifax will looking at an NHL team, with some team owners possibly being Crosby, Marchand and Mackinnon. :fingerscrossed:

I also think if Winnipeg can do it, Halifax is not far behind. Hockey is king around here and people would live in a tent as long as they had season tickets to an NHL team.

[q12]

Halifax won't get an NHL team lol, it's way too small. I love the idea of it, but can that city consistently fill 16-18000 seats 41+ nights year over year?

Currently 9 NHL teams don't meet your requirements...

https://i.ibb.co/JnFhbKR/nhl.png

[Calgarian]

Yeah and it amazes me that can make money. Throw a weak Canadian dollar in there and you have a major money loser. Ottawa won't be able to keep going like this, the Senators may become Quebec City's new team.

[someone123]

I think an NHL team could easily get 16,000 people per game in Halifax. But there is no suitable arena and the broadcasting and merchandising would be worth very little since the region only has around 2.5 million people and already follows other teams. The fact that many Maritimers are NHL fans even without a team is not much of a benefit.

As far as the stadium goes, it's just a reality that there are a bunch of events that can't be hosted in Halifax because there is no venue suitable. And Halifax is one of the worst cities in North America in terms of city size and importance vs. stadium facilities. There are small towns in the US with nicer stadiums than what Halifax has. This angle is often downplayed in stadium debates in Halifax, and cost and risk are all that are discussed, probably mostly because the people writing the news stories don't like stadiums or sports much. The city is happy to spend on many other areas.

[Haliguy]

Read more here:
https://globalnews.ca/news/6135914/schooners-sports-nhl-heritage-classic-halifax/

When I had seen the Heritage Classic game in Regina on TV a few weeks ago in their new stadium, I was thinking how great it would be to have this in Halifax. If they can do it why can't Halifax, a city twice the size of Regina.

[JHikka]

SSE holding this carrot on a string with an NHL outdoor game is a bit offensive IMO - they have no guarantees from anyone at the NHL that they're even on the path to such an event.

When I had seen the Heritage Classic game in Regina on TV a few weeks ago in their new stadium, I was thinking how great it would be to have this in Halifax. If they can do it why can't Halifax, a city twice the size of Regina.

The simple answer to your question is because Regina has a stadium that seats 30K+ and Halifax doesn't. Halifax also doesn't have a tenant for such a facility.

You could theoretically host an NHL outdoor game at Wanderer Grounds for a crowd of 10K or so but the economics wouldn't make much sense for the NHL i'd imagine. The optics would be great but the raw gameday economics less so.

Yeah and it amazes me that can make money. Throw a weak Canadian dollar in there and you have a major money loser. Ottawa won't be able to keep going like this, the Senators may become Quebec City's new team.
Ottawa won't be relocating to Quebec City. The NHL gains nothing by doing so.

[OldDartmouthMark]

:previous:

I think OldDartmouthMark was being facetious. :)

Yes I was! Thanks for bringing it to light! ;)

It would be cool to have an NHL team here, don't get me wrong, but we need a facility... and with some of our councilors not only refusing to support a stadium, but going to great lengths to try to stop the process before complete analysis is done, the chances of getting an NHL-grade arena that is in any way supported by the city is zero to none.

Maybe with a little more population growth, we could consider it someday (when new progressive-thinking councilors are in place), but in the past we struggled to support 2 different AHL teams, so NHL is a bit of a stretch IMHO. I will say the QMJHL seems to be just right for the current Halifax market... lots of support for the Mooseheads here. :2cents: