Let's end the myth. Rail transit is not quiet

[lrt's friend]

Repeatedly, one of the arguments for rail transit is that it is quieter than buses. Now, I am not against rail transit but let's be honest.

When the O-Train went into service, there was immediate demands for noice barriers along the right of way in residential neighbourhoods. I recall someone else using a noise meter along a rail transit line in Los Angeles with shocking results. While it may be true that electric engines are quieter than diesel engines, that is not the whole picture.

I make fairly regular trips to the Home Depot on Bank Street and the O-Train runs immediately next to the parking lot and the garden centre. You cannot avoid noticing the noice produced by the O-Train as it passes. It is not the engine but the steel wheels on steel rails that produces the racket, which is much worse than a diesel bus.

This is exactly one of the reasons why buses were first introduced into Ottawa in the 1920s. Noisy streetcars were not wanted in newer neighbourhoods. The Glebe was one of the first neighbourhoods to refuse streetcars, which became the cross-town bus route now known as # 6.

There are many examples of surface rail transit running in grass. This is not only about aesthetics but helps reduce noise. Unfortunately, it costs more to grass over the right of way and makes track maintenance more difficult. Few transit agencies especially in North America wish to pay this additional expense and leave the rail exposed or inbedded in pavement.

So, let's call a spade a spade. Steel wheels on steel rails is almost certainly going to produce noisier results than rubber tires on pavement. This is why it is more of a challenge to place rail transit through populated areas, especially if you want rail transit to run at more than the slowest speeds.

[citizen j]

lrt, feeling less "friendly" these days?
What's your thesis statement here? (i.e., therefore what...?) Are you advocating the use of electric buses? Or suggesting that lrt be constructed only if grass is used in the right of way? Wouldn't that be irrelevant in winter? Or would the snow function the same way the grass does as a noise mitigator? Curious.

[adam-machiavelli]

1 occasional train is the same volume as many many cars.

[niwell]

There is some merit to this, but I'm not sure the O-Train is the best example. It combines the worst aspects of both transit modes in terms of noise.

Living in Toronto my place is approximately 30m from 2 streetcar lines. The streetcars themselves don't make much noise but when the pass the entire house vibrates. I've previously lived next to a 24 hour bus line, where you don't get the vibration but can sure as hell hear the diesel engines all night long. For what it's worth I find it much easier to tone out the vibration.

[Harley613]

The O-train is HEAVY rail. Not light rail. Light rail transit is actually fairly quiet. Trains glide through the city centres of Strasbourg and Berlin so quietly that I've almost been hit by them on several occasions because I didn't hear them. Residents know to look. The proposed light rail network is a very different animal then the O-train.

[acottawa]

I guess it depends on the system. The actual electric motor and wheel-track friction cannot be heard more than a few meters away. Some older systems make other noises (bells, a clicky-clack sound from non-welded track, a screeching sound from poorly-maintained equipment) but I don't think you would find a modern system that was louder than an internal-combustion bus.

[Aylmer]

Let's end the myth: Oranges are big.

I mean sure, your argument is valid if we're talking about the O-Train, VIA rail or Commuter Rail, but you're forgetting the Tangerines: The Montpellier tram (or LRT?) is dead-quiet. It could probably run over the hard-of-hearing if the conductor really wanted to.

That's the only example that comes to mind, but my point is that rail transit incorporates many types of rail, some of which are silent, some of which are not.

[m0nkyman]

Now, I am not against rail transit but let's be honest.

For someone who is not against rail transit, you spend an inordinate amount of time criticizing it. Let's be honest, it's time to change your username.

[Dado]

Repeatedly, one of the arguments for rail transit is that it is quieter than buses. Now, I am not against rail transit but let's be honest.

When the O-Train went into service, there was immediate demands for noice barriers along the right of way in residential neighbourhoods.

That was from the jointed rail - and it's a perfect example of the City not listening to the advice of rail advocates. The latter recommended putting in welded rail. Did the City listen? Of course not. After all, what do a bunch of amateurs know? So there was lots of noise and the City's "solution" was... noise barriers, at considerable expense. Did that work? Of course not. So the City had to go out and put down welded rail after all - at less cost than it cost them to put up the barriers, all with a time savings allowing more frequent service to boot. Interestingly, the infill development north of Walkley (on former rail right-of-way) was put in after the welded rail was laid and there are no sound barriers for that development. Hmm. Turns out the rail advocates were right all along.


I make fairly regular trips to the Home Depot on Bank Street and the O-Train runs immediately next to the parking lot and the garden centre. You cannot avoid noticing the noice produced by the O-Train as it passes. It is not the engine but the steel wheels on steel rails that produces the racket, which is much worse than a diesel bus.

At the Home Depot, the O-Train is running over a switch and if it's coming from the north, it's coming out of a curve. You may well be hearing the sound of the brakes being applied to go through the switch.


So, let's call a spade a spade. Steel wheels on steel rails is almost certainly going to produce noisier results than rubber tires on pavement. This is why it is more of a challenge to place rail transit through populated areas, especially if you want rail transit to run at more than the slowest speeds.

I live near the Scott Street trench - I can guarantee that buses with their rubber tires on asphalt make a whole lot more noise than steel wheels on steel rail on a straight track. If you stand above the O-Train line at Carling or the Beech St pedestrian bridge or Gladstone, you're hard-pressed to hear it. Not so buses - you always hear them when they're travelling in a similar environment (e.g. the trench). But if it a train is going through switches or curves, then you do hear it, especially if the track isn't greased.

With buses, you always hear racket everywhere, but with trains it's localized. Train noise can be worse than bus noise at those specific spots, but the fact that it is localized means it can be addressed with specific measures as well - in contrast to buses where measures would have to be taken just about everywhere.

[bikegypsy]

What's the point of this thread? I personally never perceived LRT as being quiet (er)... I might of missed it if it had been talked about somewhere. Mass-rapid transit is about moving alot of people quickly... not about reducing noise. And still all motorised modes of transportation make some kind of noise... And...?

[lrt's friend]

What's the point of this thread? I personally never perceived LRT as being quiet (er)... I might of missed it if it had been talked about somewhere. Mass-rapid transit is about moving alot of people quickly... not about reducing noise. And still all motorised modes of transportation make some kind of noise... And...?

What is the point? There is a lot of talk about how quiet rail transit is. I wanted to debunk this myth at least to some degree. I also wanted to promote discussion and fairness into the debate and as you see I created some. Discussion is good.

Perhaps the O-Train is not a good example but we are now proposing to extend service potentially through residential areas. I have noted even talk of extending it to Barrhaven where the right of way is not very wide. Is it really the best technology for this purpose?

To some degree, a switch at the Home Depot is causing noise, but as far as I can tell it is mainly the noise of steel wheels on steel rails. Perhaps it is because the rail bed is somewhat raised compared to the Home Depot parking lot however I have noticed the noise at Walkley as well.

There is no question that hundreds of buses also create a lot of noise as well.

As mentioned above, certain train technologies may produce a lot less noise and we should consider this when we make our choices.

I would like to know how Vancouver addressed this with the Skytrain. Elevated railways tend to be the noisiest.

Finally, how does the Montreal subway with its rubber tired vehicles compare to other subways?