Does the +15 system make Calgary a better winter city?

[Ferreth]

The Calgary Herald had this story today (http://www.calgaryherald.com/business/Building+better+winter+city/3999815/story.html) about making a better winter city, with a large focus on the +15 system. One of the arguments put forward towards the end:

If you were to extend the money that went into the Plus-15 . . . and created friendly environments that were better landscaped . . . and that kind of thing, we'd be better off

Personally, I don't agree with this opinion. The +15 allows me to effectively get around downtown, without worrying about cars, weather, or waits at lights. It is more of a transportation network rather than a vibrant environment. Developments like The Core help offset the lack of vibrancy, and more of those should be supported - green spaces connected right into the +15, more retail, etc.

If you're a proponent of street life, I can see why you'd be anti +15. Street life doesn't exist if everyone is in the +15. Personally, I think the CBD is too far along in +15 development, and really street life is dead beyond Stephen Ave and Barclay walk; perhaps a future additional street or two. Work needs to be done where the +15 ends on building better street life south of 9th Ave.

Are we better off hiding from winter in the +15 network? I think the answer to that depends on what you want out of a downtown. As an effective means of commuting between buildings, it certainly made my life easier working downtown. As a means of bringing together a bunch of cultural and recreational venues to create a night time destination it totally fails, mostly because it isn't designed for that. But I still wouldn't trade the +15 network for a more vibrant street life downtown.

[freeweed]

I actually find it can take longer to walk the +15 than being on the street. Some buildings have such convoluted ways through them that it feels like you're walking twice the distance.

Extremely cold or heavy rain though - nothing beats it.

[kw5150]

It works so far!

I love the plus 15 system. As it continues to evolve and new shops and cafes open up, it will only get more interesting. When I go to a meeting at the other end of downtown, I dont even need a jacket.

If I want to walk outside, I walk outside. I like the two choices that we Calgarians have. If there were no plus 15's, the core shopping centre would not exist. I dont see why we can't have a good balance of both exterior landscape architecture and a plus 15 network. Montreal and Toronto also have a tunnel / +15 system and they brag about it....not question it. Winnipeg also has one.

Actually, Calgary should start to promote it. I know people who have lived in Calgary for a year that didn't even know the core shopping centre or that the plus 15 system was so interconneted.

I have no complaints about it at all except sometimes it is too warm!

I think we should start a thread about the high price of parking driving people away from the inner city especially on Saturdays. Also, maybe the parking should be free after 5.

[freeweed]

I think we should start a thread about the high price of parking driving people away from the inner city especially on Saturdays. Also, maybe the parking should be free after 5.

Parking downtown is free or nearly so during those times. $2 at most (at least anywhere I've parked), and free for several hours if you're shopping at the Core. Free on Sundays and holidays too, if I'm not mistaken.

Maybe I've just been lucky.... but I find it very hard to believe a couple of dollars is what's keeping people away from shopping at Holt Renfrew.

[DizzyEdge]

Indeed, during evenings and weekends parking costs are no barrier at all.
I'd be all for additional parking to be supplied to the core, but only 2-3 hr, and rigorously enforced.
That said, I'd be curious what would happen if all downtown parking was suddenly $5 a day, I wonder how much the gridlock would be self regulating as far as people still using the train instead.

[kw5150]

Parking downtown is free or nearly so during those times. $2 at most (at least anywhere I've parked), and free for several hours if you're shopping at the Core. Free on Sundays and holidays too, if I'm not mistaken.

Maybe I've just been lucky.... but I find it very hard to believe a couple of dollars is what's keeping people away from shopping at Holt Renfrew.

Thats why I said it should start at 5 (instead of 6) and be free on Saturdays...... hell, they could make it free 1 saturday a month for all I care.

[93JC]

Ugh, I hate this argument. On those -35 days I guarantee Martin Cohos was walking the +15s with the rest of us.

That the +15 system takes away from the 'vibrancy' of street life is predicated on the assumption people would be out and about on the street in cold weather, which is in my opinion spurious. Yes, if you took away the +15 system more people would be on the street out of necessity, but would they make the street more 'vibrant'? In other words they'd be 'out', but would they be 'about'?

I argue no, they're just going to be rushing off to whatever building they need to get to. They're not going to mingle, window-shop, etc.: it's too frickin' cold!


As for parking cost driving people away from downtown, it does, absolutely it does. I don't think that's what really keeps people away though. The bigger issue is that downtown offers few amenities you can't get elsewhere. That's not to say there aren't unique things you can only get downtown (Centre for the Performing Arts, boutique shops in TD Square/Eaton Centre, etc.) but for the day-to-day essentials downtown has nothing you can't somewhere else. I.e. if I lived in Dalhousie would I go shopping downtown or just go to Market Mall?

[Radley77]

I would like to see a +15 built that is 'busker friendly'. :cool:

[kw5150]

Ugh, I hate this argument. On those -35 days I guarantee Martin Cohos was walking the +15s with the rest of us.

That the +15 system takes away from the 'vibrancy' of street life is predicated on the assumption people would be out and about on the street in cold weather, which is in my opinion spurious. Yes, if you took away the +15 system more people would be on the street out of necessity, but would they make the street more 'vibrant'? In other words they'd be 'out', but would they be 'about'?

I argue no, they're just going to be rushing off to whatever building they need to get to. They're not going to mingle, window-shop, etc.: it's too frickin' cold!


As for parking cost driving people away from downtown, it does, absolutely it does. I don't think that's what really keeps people away though. The bigger issue is that downtown offers few amenities you can't get elsewhere. That's not to say there aren't unique things you can only get downtown (Centre for the Performing Arts, boutique shops in TD Square/Eaton Centre, etc.) but for the day-to-day essentials downtown has nothing you can't somewhere else. I.e. if I lived in Dalhousie would I go shopping downtown or just go to Market Mall?

I also think this arguement is too opinion based and sometimes not based on experience. I used to a agree that the plus 15 network killed street life.....but if people want to go outside......they will....there are still plenty of people that walk outside as well.

In the summer, there are more people outside than inside...and in the winter it is reversed....it is just how a winter city works.

I love showing newcomers to the city the "secret world" of the plus 15 network in Calgary. I love how it links to the larger interior spaces as well like Bankers Hall, Gulf Canada square, THE CORE, Bow Valley square, Petro Canada, The stock exchange area, Jamieson.....etc.....and there are new areas that I stumble upon all the time. I would like to see this system continue to grow but maybe with more of an interplay between the exterior / interior threshold.

[kw5150]

I would like to see a +15 built that is 'busker friendly'. :cool:

Its funny that you say that.....there have been some really good ones lately. The link between scotia and The Core is starting to become famous....lol

[DizzyEdge]

Let's put Stephen ave in a giant bubble, with a Core-like skylight.. that's retractable.

[Doug]

Downtown Calgary is one of the most intensely developed square miles on the continent. It has more than enough density to support both the +15 and street levels. The two biggest obstacles against more vibrant streetscapes in downtown Calgary are:
1) Regardless of the progress of the past decade, downtown is still mostly office space. Office lobbies make for less interesting streets. More needs to be done to encourage other uses.
2) Despite the challenge of making office towers more appealing at the street level, Calgary suffers from the fact that a majority of its towers went up in the late 70's and early 80's with blank walls and raised plazas that barricade the street. Renovations have achieved some progress, but much needs to be done.

That being said, climate is still a huge barrier to street life in Calgary with or without the +15. I just spent 3 years in Perth. It is a young city like Calgary with many of its buildings constructed post 1970s. Its downtown is considerably smaller than that of Calgary and also very skewed towards office use. Despite all of this, streetlife is miles ahead due to the temperate climate. Most people take their breaks outside, eat outside and even conduct work meetings outside. Pedestrians are more leisurely because they don't have to rush into some climate controlled environment to gain comfort.

[Wooster]

Downtown Calgary is one of the most intensely developed square miles on the continent. It has more than enough density to support both the +15 and street levels.

I've begun to realize this more and more. The critical mass is there to support both. That said, on a nice day you won't find anyone in a +15, people are desperate to flee the stale air of their office for the outside.

Calgary has been doing a much better job to enliven the ground floor of newer office buildings. I'd point to Homberg, EAP, Opus 8 and others that have done a much better job to just make it more attractive, even if the downtown doesn't support streetlife by its office nature, outside of business hours.

As a downtown, Calgary should focus on (yes making sure each new building contributes well to the public realm) making the hot spots really, really good. If places like Eau Claire, Stephen Ave/Olympic Plaza, 10th and 11th aves, 1st street, East Village, 17th ave are truly good people magnets people will cease to care about whether 5th avenue provides good streetlife. Make the good stuff great and people forget about the other areas. No one is bothered that Bay Street in Toronto doesn't have street life because a couple blocks away Queen and Yonge are bustling. No one in Chicago cares that the Loop is dead during weekends because Michigan Ave is busy at that time. Same will happen in Calgary when some of our centre-city districts better live up to their potential as people-places. +15 will be irrelivant to the discussion.

[Radley77]

I am curious what would happen if Calgary was to regulate lighting on a specific street? Like in Times Square or Fremont Street at night. The Christmas lights along Stephen Avenue are really great, which I think is being funded by the downtown community association.

In my opinion, Calgary doesn't need 10 mediocre pedestrian retail streets, just one or two phenemonal ones.

My suggestion would be to just keep expanding the +15 network, but at the same time keeping a retail\cultural pedestrian street like Stephen Avenue or the Red Mile very focused.

Ack: I see Wooster beat me to it (RE: "make good stuff, great!")

[DizzyEdge]

Agree with both of you.

I realize this is turning into the good streets vs the +15 topic, but what do you think about Barclay Mall. Although the street/sidewalks etc are attractive, there's not much retail presence. Would there be enough sidewalk space for it to focus on food carts or the like? Basically cart based retail.

[Ferreth]

Agree with both of you.

I realize this is turning into the good streets vs the +15 topic, but what do you think about Barclay Mall. Although the street/sidewalks etc are attractive, there's not much retail presence. Would there be enough sidewalk space for it to focus on food carts or the like? Basically cart based retail.

Barclay mall is pretty disappointing in my books. All the planters really clutter it up and make it feel like walking a rats maze. Little retail, boring street face. I only ever walk it to be outside, otherwise I just use the +15 that roughly parallels it.

[DizzyEdge]

Barclay mall is pretty disappointing in my books. All the planters really clutter it up and make it feel like walking a rats maze. Little retail, boring street face. I only ever walk it to be outside, otherwise I just use the +15 that roughly parallels it.

Well google street viewing it, there's definitely some room between planters and in other areas for a fair number of carts, and you could even have food trucks in the few parking spaces. It could be interesting idea.. and give it a purpose.

[Ferreth]

Well google street viewing it, there's definitely some room between planters and in other areas for a fair number of carts, and you could even have food trucks in the few parking spaces. It could be interesting idea.. and give it a purpose.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about (http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Calgary,+Division+No.+6,+Alberta&ll=51.048584,-114.072322&spn=0.005652,0.01163&z=17&layer=c&cbll=51.048589,-114.070356&panoid=Gkz-zb8AOjtBUioxLADp7w&cbp=12,0.51,,1,2.92). The sidewalk ends up having about the standard width you would get anywhere else. Take out about 2/3rds of this and allow the sidewalk the full width where the meander of the road narrows the space available. Oh, I got a kick out this little outdoor space the Zen 8 (http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Calgary,+Division+No.+6,+Alberta&ll=51.049266,-114.070122&spn=0.005652,0.01163&z=17&layer=c&cbll=51.049359,-114.070121&panoid=BrwfjBAq1H1MlVJnhjKMLw&cbp=12,133.87,,0,19.34) I presume is using, seriously, who is going to want to sit 5 feet away from where cars are whizzing past?

[DizzyEdge]

Here is an example of what I'm talking about (http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Calgary,+Division+No.+6,+Alberta&ll=51.048584,-114.072322&spn=0.005652,0.01163&z=17&layer=c&cbll=51.048589,-114.070356&panoid=Gkz-zb8AOjtBUioxLADp7w&cbp=12,0.51,,1,2.92). The sidewalk ends up having about the standard width you would get anywhere else. Take out about 2/3rds of this and allow the sidewalk the full width where the meander of the road narrows the space available. Oh, I got a kick out this little outdoor space the Zen 8 (http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Calgary,+Division+No.+6,+Alberta&ll=51.049266,-114.070122&spn=0.005652,0.01163&z=17&layer=c&cbll=51.049359,-114.070121&panoid=BrwfjBAq1H1MlVJnhjKMLw&cbp=12,133.87,,0,19.34) I presume is using, seriously, who is going to want to sit 5 feet away from where cars are whizzing past?

Well considering that those planters are only there to make a boring street slightly more interesting, I would support rearrangement or reduction of them if something interesting went in their place (that wasn't as large). Where that little.. patio.. is where I could envision the back of a food cart, you're right as far as sitting there it's a pretty bad spot.

[DizzyEdge]

And in the winter instead of food the carts could sell shots of spiced rum :)

[freeweed]

Those planters are just pure evil, and what the city's done as a result is even worse. There's a spot on 3rd St (at 5th Ave) where the planters basically make you walk from one side of the sidewalk to the other - except the city in its infinite wisdom has decided to paint the crosswalk at the extreme edge which really suits neither. So what ends up happening is that pedestrians are sick of being choked up and tangled in those idiot planters, and once past, everyone spreads out and lines up at the curb.

Except whoops! The actual crosswalk is nowhere close to where you'd think it would be, so traffic stops immediately in front of where half of the pedestrians are waiting to cross. And hilarity ensues.

This is a recent thing as of this fall, I believe (it certainly wasn't like that before). With winter no one can see the lines anyway so it's less of an issue, but it's pretty comical to watch in action. Here we have these wonderfully wide sidewalks, insanely pedestrian friendly - and then we royally fuck it all up by a) cramming them with needless obstruction, and b) making crosswalks that are diametrically opposed to how any pedestrian actually walks.

It's one of those things you have to see to believe. I had a cow-orker ranting about this some months ago and then I finally experienced it. It's sheer stupidity.

On the planters themselves - if we have to do this, PUT THEM BY THE STREET. PERIOD. Forcing pedestrians to not only dodge around them, but actually move closer to traffic is one of the most hostile things I've seen in this city. Almost as bad as the "sidewalks" on the north side of 10th Ave.

[Radley77]

Would there be enough sidewalk space for it to focus on food carts or the like? Basically cart based retail.

I like the idea of cart-based retail; Another thing that kind of would be nice for a street-retail experience would be a couple designated popup ticket vending places. It would be nice if there were somewhere selling tix for everything from Roughneck games to CPO to Theatre Calgary (maybe I'm wrong and this already exists?).

[kw5150]

I like the barclay mall area.....but yes, the disturbingly cluttered, massive, bench-planter-garbage can clusters do take away from it. Never put a garbage can next to a seating area. Keep it at least a few metres away. It is nice to see the green, the flowers and the sculptures but there is definately something wacky about it all. There reall is such an opportunity down there because of all of the 11 am to 1pm sun. What a missed opportunity and a perfect link to eau claire.

They should also be extending Stephen Ave......not the pedestrian area but the look and feel of a vibrant street all the way down to 11st SW.

They should be extending the feel of 17th ave all the way to Stampede....and like someone said, improve the direct link from 17th ave across Mcleod and into the stampede area. That dead end is so anticlimactic.

[DizzyEdge]

I like the idea of cart-based retail; Another thing that kind of would be nice for a street-retail experience would be a couple designated popup ticket vending places. It would be nice if there were somewhere selling tix for everything from Roughneck games to CPO to Theatre Calgary (maybe I'm wrong and this already exists?).

That sounds pretty cool as well.

I think some hot drinks carts/trucks might do ok in the winter as well, hot drinks and hot food.
now I want to do a charrette :)

[Calgarian]

I never use the +15 system as I live and work in the beltline, and when I do go into the CBD, the streets just make so much more sense. Leave the +15 as it is and focus on better street life.

[kw5150]

I never use the +15 system as I live and work in the beltline, and when I do go into the CBD, the streets just make so much more sense. Leave the +15 as it is and focus on better street life.

How can someone who never uses the +15 system be allowed to comment on the relevance of it? I suggest that you take an afternoon and take a little walkthrough. There is alot going on in there. It is more than just bridges......it is like a city within a city.

I used the +15s today again and they are absolutely packed. Such a neat sight to see. The streets also had many people. I dont see a problem with the balance of both. I think the downtown has something good going on and they should just keep going with it.

[93JC]

I also rarely use the +15s, and walking the streets takes a lot less time, but if it's -35 out and I need to go from the building I work in (in the West End) to, say, Sunlife Plaza I'll take the frickin' +15.

"Leave the +15 as it is and focus on better street life" makes it sound as though you can only focus on one. They're not mutually exclusive. You can have a +15 bridge and still have a better street life. A lack of street life in Calgary has more to do with the buildings and sidewalks themselves.

[DizzyEdge]

I guess my preference initially would be extend the +15 as much as you want, but have it just be a purely pedestrian transportation system, focus on the streets are far as places that people may want to linger. That said the floors that the +15 enter when it gets to buildings are the domain of the building owners so they can fancy that up as much as they wish.

[kw5150]

Well, I am off to a meeting from my office near the Calgary tower. I am not taking a jacket if you know what I mean!

Hint: Im walking through a series of interconnected buildings.


;)

[Calgarian]

How can someone who never uses the +15 system be allowed to comment on the relevance of it? I suggest that you take an afternoon and take a little walkthrough. There is alot going on in there. It is more than just bridges......it is like a city within a city.

I used the +15s today again and they are absolutely packed. Such a neat sight to see. The streets also had many people. I dont see a problem with the balance of both. I think the downtown has something good going on and they should just keep going with it.

I've used it before, many times. I just find that actually walking outside is much easier, and unless it's -20 outside, the cold doesn't really bother me much.

[Calgarian]

I also rarely use the +15s, and walking the streets takes a lot less time, but if it's -35 out and I need to go from the building I work in (in the West End) to, say, Sunlife Plaza I'll take the frickin' +15.

"Leave the +15 as it is and focus on better street life" makes it sound as though you can only focus on one. They're not mutually exclusive. You can have a +15 bridge and still have a better street life. A lack of street life in Calgary has more to do with the buildings and sidewalks themselves.

A big part of the reason that street faces of a lot of buildings downtown are so cold and uninviting is that they weren't meant to be inviting as people were taking the +15 to get around downtown, that's where they put the retail and that's where the pedestrian focus went. I think putting emphasis on the streets is more appropriate than expanding the +15 right now.

[93JC]

There are plenty of buildings not connected to the +15 network that have "cold, uninviting" street faces.

I see where you're coming from but I don't believe they're as intertwined as you would lead others to believe. I work in a building on the fringes of the West End with no +15 connection and in my experience the street life here is far less 'vibrant' than a few blocks to the east, despite the fact those buildings are connected to the +15 system.


How do you even define "street life"? What makes one street's 'life' more 'vibrant' than another?

[MichaelS]

This seems like a good thread to ask. Does anyone know when this +15 will get built?

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f106/msydenham/Random%20Photos/Plus15.jpg
from: http://www.abugovkaspar.com/our_projects/architecture.htm

It runs from the Penn West Plaza to Gulf Canada Square.

[MR. Cosmopolitan]

How do you even define "street life"? What makes one street's 'life' more 'vibrant' than another?

I think I could answer this question, from what I've seen I would say that there are two very distinct kinds of vibrancies, one that Calgary has a lot in it's downtown and another that nearly completely lacks of. workers' and residents' vibrancy. The first one lasts something like 2 hours a day divided by the 3 rush hours (I count luch time) taking place where the offices are. Calgary has the vibrancy of a 1000000 Euro-city thinking this kind of vibrancy.
The seccond one lasts a variable amount of time depending on the type of commerces on the street intensity depending on the amount of people living at walkable or short transit ride distance from the street. In my impresion Calgary has the equivalen of a 50000 Euro-city vibrancy of this kind.
The seccond kind of vibrancy, is obiously much nicer than the first one, if you want to increase it you'll have to increase the the population of the outer downtown and inner-city. When you have people living on the downtown the vibrancy of the streets would only depend on the commerces.

[Calgarian]

There are plenty of buildings not connected to the +15 network that have "cold, uninviting" street faces.

I see where you're coming from but I don't believe they're as intertwined as you would lead others to believe. I work in a building on the fringes of the West End with no +15 connection and in my experience the street life here is far less 'vibrant' than a few blocks to the east, despite the fact those buildings are connected to the +15 system.


How do you even define "street life"? What makes one street's 'life' more 'vibrant' than another?


I'm not saying that the +15 is 100% responsible for the poor pedestrian realm in downtown Calgary, but it is a significant factor. Another factor is the fact that hardly anyone lives downtown so there isn't the critical mass of pedestrians outside of business hours to support lots of business. As a result of these factors (and the fact that everyone wants to drive here), many buildings have a very cold and uninviting street presence.
The reason the street life is so bad in the West end is they didn't put very much retail in the base of all those new Condo towers, and the retail that is there doesn't attract people to that area, as such it's about as exciting as a typical suburb.

As Mr. Cosmopolitan stated, there are basically 2 kinds of street vibrancy, business and recreation are my categories. Business vibrancy is a lot of office workers and suits out on the streets during the day, going into stores and restaurants. The problem with this type of street life is that the office workers all get in their SUVs and drive back to their suburb at days end, so a lot of the businesses they frequent during the day, close at 6 and on weekends leaving downtown a ghost town. The second type of street life is recreational, streets like 17th, 4th, Kensington, 10th etc. all have people out during the day, in the evening and on weekends. This is the preferred type of vibrancy as it creates destination streets that people will travel to just to visit.
How it relates to the +15 system is that if it is in enclosed skywalks above the street, then people can't see it and don't know it's there. As such retail in the +15 system will never be more than something that services the office workers during the day, while it may be convenient on cold or rainy days, it will keep the streets below from ever becoming more than they currently are.

That's my take on it anyway.

[freeweed]

How it relates to the +15 system is that if it is in enclosed skywalks above the street, then people can't see it and don't know it's there. As such retail in the +15 system will never be more than something that services the office workers during the day, while it may be convenient on cold or rainy days, it will keep the streets below from ever becoming more than they currently are.

That's my take on it anyway.

No question that there's too much retail jammed into the +15 system. Sure it's handy to not need a coat to grab lunch, but I have to believe there's a better way. Like possibly having stuff accessible from both the +15 AND the street (I've seen examples, but it's certainly not the norm).

[Ferreth]

No question that there's too much retail jammed into the +15 system. Sure it's handy to not need a coat to grab lunch, but I have to believe there's a better way. Like possibly having stuff accessible from both the +15 AND the street (I've seen examples, but it's certainly not the norm).

Stephen Avenue is probably the best example. I'll walk the street on a nice day, and just stick with the +15 during crappy days.

Yesterday I walked back to The Core from my Dentist at 8th & 8th SW. Compared to my previous walk using the +15 two days ago, I can't say it felt any better - it was quicker, although I seemed to get hung up on every light, and a stupid flexi-bus blocked the intersection at 6th, making it very dangerous to cross. I noted in shopping at HMV that about 2/3ds of the people were coming in the store from the mall at 6pm; 1/3rd from the street. Not too bad for an average winter day after dark.

However, I stuck to the +15 once inside. Even with it being not particularly cold, the inside environment appeals more to me after dark. Shopping The Core is certainly less hectic than trying to hit any mall in the evenings right now.

[freeweed]

Yeah, Stephen Ave has a few examples of what I was thinking about. And I agree with the after-dark comments; it's not something I've consciously noticed before but with our very short days this time of year, it's certainly something that needs to be considered. Maybe we need some more powerful than usual streetlights in our pedestrian/retail realm.

As a pedestrian I find the street lights in downtown Calgary to be very hit or miss. I have some routes that I walk where I can basically time it so that I keep hitting a walk signal with every intersection, and it's very fast. Other routes... I get stuck at every damn corner. And generally arrive just as the previous walk is ending, too, so the wait time is maximized. That's when I start eyeballing the +15. I really have no idea what the city could do to improve the light timings for pedestrians without turning downtown into a parking lot.

[93JC]

I'm not saying that the +15 is 100% responsible for the poor pedestrian realm in downtown Calgary, but it is a significant factor. Another factor is the fact that hardly anyone lives downtown so there isn't the critical mass of pedestrians outside of business hours to support lots of business. As a result of these factors (and the fact that everyone wants to drive here), many buildings have a very cold and uninviting street presence.


It's a "chicken and egg" scenario: if there aren't enough pedestrians to support businesses then businesses won't open, but pedestrians won't walk the streets if there are no businesses open.

I think this all goes back to what I said in my first post: there are few compelling reasons for people to come downtown as far as businesses go. Downtown has a few boutiques and specialty shops you can't find elsewhere but by definition a boutique appeals to a limited clientele. Everything else is the same as any other retail area in the city. E.g. if you lived in Glenbrook and wanted to buy a CD would you go downtown to shop at the HMV in TD Square, or would you go to the one at Signal Hill Shopping Centre? If you lived in Brentwood and needed to do some grocery shopping would you take the C-train downtown and go to the Safeway on 8th Street, or would you go to the Safeway in Brentwood Mall?

Downtown needs more residents, not less +15s.

[reflexzero]

+15 is nice, but there aren't nearly enough connections, especially around Suncor. It's classic Calgary, you can't get there from here.

But it sure beats ankle-breaking slippery sidewalks.

[MichaelS]

+15 is nice, but there aren't nearly enough connections, especially around Suncor. It's classic Calgary, you can't get there from here.

But it sure beats ankle-breaking slippery sidewalks.

How is that classic Calgary?

[freeweed]

How is that classic Calgary?

I think I know what he's talking about. Calgary has a lot of issues like this in its road system - roads that just disappear, or end suddenly and start up somewhere else with an untraversable gap in between. Plus our retail establishments are full of adjacent parking lots that you cannot drive between - you have to go back out to the street, then come in again.

[Ferreth]

I think I know what he's talking about. Calgary has a lot of issues like this in its road system - roads that just disappear, or end suddenly and start up somewhere else with an untraversable gap in between. Plus our retail establishments are full of adjacent parking lots that you cannot drive between - you have to go back out to the street, then come in again.

I'd say it's "Classic Calgary" in that Calgary will cut a road off with no good reason. Harvest Hills Blvd - Centre St is a "classic" example. The City planned to cut it right from square one, with no reason other than forcing people to use Deerfoot. Or, the city buckles to local pressure, such as not connecting Sarcee north with Sarcee south, because a piddly 5 short blocks of Bowness residence and OMG! a river crossing! somehow balances making everyone else's life in the NW and WSW that much more miserable for lack of river crossings.

As far as the +15 goes, the reason we have so many holes is that there are still many lots of parking or original low density development that never had +15's planned. The Bow is going to plug a huge hole in the network, as can be seen in the newly updated +15 map (http://www.calgary.ca/DocGallery/BU/planning/pdf/15-map.pdf), connecting Suncor (still "Petro Canada" on the map) with Telus. & points east. Although, I'd say for once the city is a little ahead of itself mapping out the Bow's connection - are we still not a full year away from seeing any of this open?

Heh - I just noticed that they don't have any of EAP's + 15 to Centennial Parkade in there - which is a lot closer to opening than the Bow's.

[MalcolmTucker]

That map is just awful. Perhaps they could just number buildings and have a list off to the side? Perhaps breaking the city up into west central and east districts with different building colours so that when you find your destination in the list, you only have to search through 1/3rd of the map instead of the whole thing.

[Innersoul1]

On days like today I am very much happy that we have a plus 15 system!

[Radley77]

I noticed that the newest City of Calgary +15 map doesn't have the connection to Eighth Avenue Place which I think has already been constructed over 4th street but is not in services. Whereas, it shows the connection between the Bow and Telus, and that hasn't even started yet...

Would LOVE to see more thought put into wayfinding on the street level, and perhaps with a more thematic experience versus utilitarianism of the +15. I think bold and creative wayfinding is key to creating a more vibrant city centre.

I could also see a one stop vending shop for cultural/sports tickets downtown as being a good business idea. I could see something like this being a better financial success than say compared to the trinket shops in Eau Claire(?). I was in Eau Claire market this last weekend, and there is now significant square footage that is unleased.

[mersar]

The problem with the new +15 over 4th is it doesn't connect to anything yet (it's quite a ways set back from the parkade and my guess is may just be built but won't be use until that parking lot is redeveloped)

[Radley77]

The problem with the new +15 over 4th is it doesn't connect to anything yet (it's quite a ways set back from the parkade and my guess is may just be built but won't be use until that parking lot is redeveloped)

I went by this +15 the other day because I was curious about a +15 that goes to nowhere. I snapped a photo from the +15 that is connected to the parkade. I couldn't really tell which way it was going to connect as it would be akward to install at this point. :shrug:

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/9900/img00104201101101116.jpg

Hopefully there is bright lighting under the bottom of the +15...

[DizzyEdge]

Revisiting the comments about Barclay parade, much of the discussion was that although the street has lots of potential with it's wide sidewalks, art, and ...sometimes in your way planters and benches, much of the businesses that are adjacent to it are not pedestrian friendly or interesting. I had brought up the notion about whether focusing on food or other mobile vendors might be an interesting way to bring the desired pedestrian-interesting frontages to the streetside if not the building side.

Anyway, I was google streetviewing St John's NF and something interesting caught my eye:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&t=h&layer=c&cbll=47.561244,-52.711502&panoid=QhNf7vHtQp3phdsxAR2P6w&cbp=12,19.86,,0,15.99&ll=47.561252,-52.71148&spn=0,0.026157&z=16

I looked around a bit more and found:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=47.561044,-52.710847&spn=0,0.00327&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=47.561082,-52.710975&panoid=ijTqT8qJ0Nalp1CA39uw1A&cbp=12,11.61,,1,3.52

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=47.561044,-52.710847&spn=0,0.00327&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=47.561082,-52.710975&panoid=ijTqT8qJ0Nalp1CA39uw1A&cbp=12,41.17,,0,14.72

A bit of googling brought up:

Motorized Vending Sites:

Public Property
The City permits vending from public parking spaces in the following commercial zones:

Churchill Square 1 site leased, vehicle permitted to remain on site throughout the year
Downtown 5 sites designated as lease sites, vehicles permitted to remain on site throughout the year

Harbour Drive parking permitted on metered spaces while vending business is in operation (meters to be paid) vehicle must not be left unattended

One designated site is available for lease at the present time:
George Street, Corner of Queen Street, adjacent to Dooley's

Annual fees for leased spaces are:

Churchill Square $1,500 + HST
Downtown $3,000 + HST

Open Air Market, Churchill Square
The City has designated a small area of the Churchill Square parking lot as an open air market, generally referred to as the “farmers market” for the purposes of outdoor vending. Fourteen parking stalls are allocated for the market area which are renewable annually in May at a cost of $250 per year.

So it looks like those teal parking spaces are the downtown leased spaces mentioned, for $3000 a year.

Looking up and down Barclay Parade, there's about 24-26 spaces between 9th ave and 2nd ave, mostly double spaces, a few singles. If one was to designated 1 of each double space, and the couple of single spaces as vendor parking, you'd end up with about 12 spots.

What do you guys think, worthwhile? totally ludicrous?

[Radley77]

Revisiting the comments about Barclay parade, much of the discussion was that although the street has lots of potential with it's wide sidewalks, art, and ...sometimes in your way planters and benches, much of the businesses that are adjacent to it are not pedestrian friendly or interesting. I had brought up the notion about whether focusing on food or other mobile vendors might be an interesting way to bring the desired pedestrian-interesting frontages to the streetside if not the building side.

Anyway, I was google streetviewing St John's NF and something interesting caught my eye:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&t=h&layer=c&cbll=47.561244,-52.711502&panoid=QhNf7vHtQp3phdsxAR2P6w&cbp=12,19.86,,0,15.99&ll=47.561252,-52.71148&spn=0,0.026157&z=16

I looked around a bit more and found:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=47.561044,-52.710847&spn=0,0.00327&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=47.561082,-52.710975&panoid=ijTqT8qJ0Nalp1CA39uw1A&cbp=12,11.61,,1,3.52

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=47.561044,-52.710847&spn=0,0.00327&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=47.561082,-52.710975&panoid=ijTqT8qJ0Nalp1CA39uw1A&cbp=12,41.17,,0,14.72

A bit of googling brought up:

Motorized Vending Sites:

Public Property
The City permits vending from public parking spaces in the following commercial zones:

Churchill Square 1 site leased, vehicle permitted to remain on site throughout the year
Downtown 5 sites designated as lease sites, vehicles permitted to remain on site throughout the year

Harbour Drive parking permitted on metered spaces while vending business is in operation (meters to be paid) vehicle must not be left unattended

One designated site is available for lease at the present time:
George Street, Corner of Queen Street, adjacent to Dooley's

Annual fees for leased spaces are:

Churchill Square $1,500 + HST
Downtown $3,000 + HST

Open Air Market, Churchill Square
The City has designated a small area of the Churchill Square parking lot as an open air market, generally referred to as the “farmers market” for the purposes of outdoor vending. Fourteen parking stalls are allocated for the market area which are renewable annually in May at a cost of $250 per year.

So it looks like those teal parking spaces are the downtown leased spaces mentioned, for $3000 a year.

Looking up and down Barclay Parade, there's about 24-26 spaces between 9th ave and 2nd ave, mostly double spaces, a few singles. If one was to designated 1 of each double space, and the couple of single spaces as vendor parking, you'd end up with about 12 spots.

What do you guys think, worthwhile? totally ludicrous?

I think it's a pretty cool idea. I'd love for Calgary to have a bigger and more experimental underground food scene a la alley burgers. I'm not sure how economically viable it would be to have a dozen vendors competing for the same captive audience though. I am travelling to Portland this weekend and hoping to hit up some of their awesome food cart scene ( http://www.foodcartsportland.com/ ). Will take notes on what is and isn't workking.

[DizzyEdge]

Yeah I checked out the food carts when I was in Portland, and that is part of what brought up the idea.

[whiteford]

The plus 15 network is simply wonderfull. It serves its community in a positive way and I don’t think there are any big drawbacks. It sure does not take away from the street life in nearly as dramatic of fusion as it is being accused of. For the people that actually use the system, it is more likely viewed as a god send. I don't think that it was designed to make Calgary a better winter city. It was designed to do just what it is doing to this day. Connecting many office buildings together, for the welfare of the workers that use it on a regular or not so regular basis. In that way it is a world class indoor walkway system. Perhaps it is the world’s best indoor walkway system.

[armorand93]

Lets put it this way:

Elevated Walkway = No office workers going out when its -40

Doesn't make it a better winter city though. Maybe if Eau Claire market got a skywalk :P

[armorand93]

The plus 15 network is simply wonderfull. It serves its community in a positive way and I don’t think there are any big drawbacks. It sure does not take away from the street life in nearly as dramatic of fusion as it is being accused of. For the people that actually use the system, it is more likely viewed as a god send. I don't think that it was designed to make Calgary a better winter city. It was designed to do just what it is doing to this day. Connecting many office buildings together, for the welfare of the workers that use it on a regular or not so regular basis. In that way it is a world class indoor walkway system. Perhaps it is the world’s best indoor walkway system.

The layout is confusing though, ESPECIALLY around the Mariott or Glenbow Museum

[kw5150]

The layout is confusing though, ESPECIALLY around the Mariott or Glenbow Museum

Big deal. Figure it out. I certainly dont complain when there is a windchill outside. In the summer (or on a warm day) I walk outdoors instead, but ususally tempted to walk through the CORE shoppping centre everytime!

[whiteford]

Although it has some drawbacks, the system is still a world beater. Any big city that gets cold like Calgary does should demand such a system. Many people use the system, and that itself is a testament of its usefulness. I can’t imagine Calgary without its plus 15.

[Bigtime]

The city conducted counts of +15 usage in January, here is the map with the results:

http://www.calgary.ca/DocGallery/BU/planning/pdf/plus-15-pedestrian-count-results-2011-01.pdf

[kw5150]

very cool.:previous::previous:

[kw5150]

Although it has some drawbacks, the system is still a world beater. Any big city that gets cold like Calgary does should demand such a system. Many people use the system, and that itself is a testament of its usefulness. I can’t imagine Calgary without its plus 15.

And until they stop using harsh salts on the roads I will continue to keep my leather shoes is good shape by using the plus 15s in the winter, especially on soggy days.

[freeweed]

That's a cool find, thanks BT!

It mostly fits with my experience. I've walked most of the +15 by now and there are some surprisingly busy "outlier" walkways. The main N-S corridor between 2nd and 3rd is by far the major highway here.

I'm shocked at how little traffic the Bow has seen so far.

[kw5150]

I see a new power-centre forming with the bow valley - suncor - Bow complex. Its a good thing that Bow vally square did all of those revovations!! I hope they have room for all of the new traffic between those 8 buildings!!

[Calgarian]

So GCS is still the busiest area for the +15, interesting. I wonder if the Bow will affect the numbers much.

[hulkrogan]

The city conducted counts of +15 usage in January, here is the map with the results:

http://www.calgary.ca/DocGallery/BU/planning/pdf/plus-15-pedestrian-count-results-2011-01.pdf

Tim Hortons in GCS should have to pay a maintenance tax for theirs. That is a crazy amount of traffic.

[Ferreth]

The city conducted counts of +15 usage in January, here is the map with the results:

http://www.calgary.ca/DocGallery/BU/planning/pdf/plus-15-pedestrian-count-results-2011-01.pdf

Very interesting. I'm a little surprised the highest count came from the bridge between Gulf Canada & Banker's hall. This map is worth looking at if you're trying to decide if a space is worth renting for your corner store type business that relies partly on walk-by traffic.

I'd be interested in seeing a comparison count in June to see the differences in traffic when the weather is nicer.

[jsbertram]

That's a cool find, thanks BT!

It mostly fits with my experience. I've walked most of the +15 by now and there are some surprisingly busy "outlier" walkways. The main N-S corridor between 2nd and 3rd is by far the major highway here.

I'm shocked at how little traffic the Bow has seen so far.

I'm not, since it was still a construction zone in January when the survey was done...

[rjh123]

As a student doing research on skyway systems including the +15 in Calgary, this thread has been very interesting to read through. It's one thing reading about the skyway in news articles and books, but they don't offer any insight into the opinions of the people who use the system.

If anyone has time to fill out a short questionnaire that I put together online, that would be fantastic :)

this is the link: http://freeonlinesurveys.com/s.asp?sid=bcjyxxv1pmwy7lk227529 thanks!

[Ferreth]

As a student doing research on skyway systems including the +15 in Calgary, this thread has been very interesting to read through. It's one thing reading about the skyway in news articles and books, but they don't offer any insight into the opinions of the people who use the system.

If anyone has time to fill out a short questionnaire that I put together online, that would be fantastic :)

this is the link: http://freeonlinesurveys.com/s.asp?sid=bcjyxxv1pmwy7lk227529 thanks!

Feel free to post back your results. I'm sure people here will be interested.

[lubicon]

Absolutely post the results if you can! As a frequent and long time used of the Plus 15 system I would be very curious to see the results.

[rjh123]

I'd be very happy to share the results when I'm done... hopefully there'll be enough respondents/data. I've posted the link in a couple of other online forums but this is the fastest response so far, so thanks guys!

[Tropics]

Thats why I said it should start at 5 (instead of 6) and be free on Saturdays......

Old post but this is actually an insanely good idea to vitalize the downtown core.

With most people's work ending at about 5pm the fact that parking is excessively expensive for that hour from the time they leave work until 6 is a major hurdle for downtown restaurants and shopping establishments on a weeknight.

By changing to that single hour earlier for the cheap rate people leaving work can immediately drive somewhere, park cheaply, and go shopping or out to have a bite to eat downtown.

One of the major reasons for the mass exudus that occurs at present is because people whose work ends at 5 are enticed to leave the core and go to a strip mall in the burbs with free parking, a semi-casual restaurant, and some chain retail instead of parking downtown and hitting up a restaurant on Stephens Ave and getting some shopping done in The Core.

I think the city would be VERY smart to rethink the hours for low rate public parking and drop it by an hour, so would places like the Bankers Hall parkade. 5 o'clock makes ALOT of practical sense.