Nortel Campus Sold to PWGSC - Future DND

[DubberDom]

It looks like PWGSC is buying up the Nortel Campus and will likely consolidate various DND groups into the location.

I find it quite surprising that all the "urban intensification" advocates on this board are not all up in arms. I often get accused of being some sort of pro-sprawl advocate (which is not true), and here is a prime example, once again, of the Federal Government buying up land and moving jobs away from the core into areas not currently accessible through direct rapid transit from all parts or the city.

I often accuse the Urban Intensification people of being misguided in their approach, and here is yet again a perfect example of what is really wrong. The Federal Government should not be moving or build any new Government structures that are not on existing or future Rapid Transit routes. If the Feds want to own that campus, they must pay 100% of the cost for transit station into the facility.

Imagine people who currently work for DND and live in Gatineau? Imagine those who worked from RCMP before they moved to FarrHaven?

Funny, I have not heard a peep from any of you on this? The Feds are once again moving 5000 to as much as 10000 jobs away from the core. This is on top of the RCMP's move to JDS, and Agriculture's move to Skyline (while still in core, it is not effectively serviced by rapid transit).

Furthermore, PWGSC is building a new DND site in Hull on de la Carriere with barely any rapid transit access available from the Ottawa side.

If the Feds are moving out to the suburbs or away from the Transitway lines, should they not be responsible to ensure proper transportation infrastructure is in place?

If I were mayor, I would insist that all new Federal Government buildings should be located within 400m (give or take) of a transitway station.

[reidjr]

Its a 5 minute walk from a heavy rail line.This may be the right time to look at running a heavy rail train from the valley to the east end.

[Ottawan]

Well, to assuage your annoyance at the 'intensification' group, of which I suppose I am a member, I do highly disagree with this move. Jobs are more accessible in the core, and if we are going to spend money on a transit tunnel, and indeed an entirely core-centric transit system, then to take advantage of that investment, that is where the jobs should be. Someone working out of the Nortel Campus, or down in the new RCMP campus is undoubtedly going to be much more likely to commute by car.

This is not the type of city we want to be building, and this will undoubtedly encourage sprawl. I really hope that these moves outwards by the Federal Government are one-time deals reflecting extremely lucrative real estate prices for these particular campuses, and does not reflect a broader policy.

In my mind, the correct choice for DND would have been to build themselves sufficient office space at either Tunney's or Confederation Heights. There is more than enough room (and a corresponding need for intensification and thoughtful development) at either location.

[reidjr]

Some one would have bought this site so its not like its the gov or nothing.When nortel was in its hayday alot of people did travel by bus i beleave oc even offered a special bus service.I have been on this site and for dnd or what every dept it is perfect there is 11 office buildings that includes gyms and cafes etc.I think there would have been alot of massive backlash if the gov came out and said were going to build 11 new office buildings downtown with gyms etc.That would cost double if not more then what they paud for this site.

[McC]

There is more than enough room (and a corresponding need for intensification and thoughtful development) at either location.
Heck, there should be more than enough room at the current NDHQ site!
http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=nicholas+and+waller,+ottawa&sll=49.891235,-97.15369&sspn=24.984251,55.634766&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Nicholas+St+%26+Waller+St,+Ottawa,+Ottawa+Division,+Ontario&ll=45.423569,-75.688553&spn=0.001657,0.003396&t=h&z=18
e.g. you could easily fill-in the northeast corner with a building at least the size of Place de Ville Tower C, which houses a good 2500 employees, I think.

[Cre47]

It looks like PWGSC is buying up the Nortel Campus and will likely consolidate various DND groups into the location.

I find it quite surprising that all the "urban intensification" advocates on this board are not all up in arms. I often get accused of being some sort of pro-sprawl advocate (which is not true), and here is a prime example, once again, of the Federal Government buying up land and moving jobs away from the core into areas not currently accessible through direct rapid transit from all parts or the city.

I often accuse the Urban Intensification people of being misguided in their approach, and here is yet again a perfect example of what is really wrong. The Federal Government should not be moving or build any new Government structures that are not on existing or future Rapid Transit routes. If the Feds want to own that campus, they must pay 100% of the cost for transit station into the facility.

Imagine people who currently work for DND and live in Gatineau? Imagine those who worked from RCMP before they moved to FarrHaven?

Funny, I have not heard a peep from any of you on this? The Feds are once again moving 5000 to as much as 10000 jobs away from the core. This is on top of the RCMP's move to JDS, and Agriculture's move to Skyline (while still in core, it is not effectively serviced by rapid transit).

Furthermore, PWGSC is building a new DND site in Hull on de la Carriere with barely any rapid transit access available from the Ottawa side.

If the Feds are moving out to the suburbs or away from the Transitway lines, should they not be responsible to ensure proper transportation infrastructure is in place?

If I were mayor, I would insist that all new Federal Government buildings should be located within 400m (give or take) of a transitway station.

By the time the move will be done, the Bayshore-Moodie segment should be built already though it is a good 5-minute walk though from the 417, it would probably still need routes like the 116, 166, 169 and 182 to serve the Nortel roads. The 181 would probably also have to be reinstated west of Bayshore and it could act as the western terminus of the 101 for non-Kanata trips.

Route 96 would have to be extended to Orleans (hey if they are planning to extend the 94 Barrhaven they can certainly extend the 96 to Orleans) and running more then the current 15-minute frequency in the westbound direction in the AM peak and eastbound during the PM peak. Route 97 would probably have to be extended to end there as well.

Probably no need for the 2 and the 85 to go there or any routes that ends at Lincoln Fields.

However, it would still be a good 45-minute from Orleans and that is from Place d'Orleans I'm talking. By car, it would be a good hour or so, considering it will take probably 45 minutes to get rid of the 174 gridlock.

[DubberDom]

However, it would still be a good 45-minute from Orleans and that is from Place d'Orleans I'm talking. By car, it would be a good hour or so, considering it will take probably 45 minutes to get rid of the 174 gridlock.

45 minutes by bus??? Think 90 minutes to total commute time from home to office from Orleans, probably even worse from Gatineau. My commute by car is approximately the same (Cumberland area to Maitland area) and takes me 45-50 minutes in traffic door to door (except when in snows of course). It will be worse when LRT is implemented. Joe DND will have to take the following routes:
- Local route to Orleans Transit Huib
- "95" to Blair
- LRT to Tunney's
- "96" to Bayshore
- Local route to Nortel Campus


Yikes!!!

The idea that "since the campus was there anyway, somebody would have bought it" is not accurate, since they will be simply moving up to 10,000 jobs away from the Core (they occupy approx 150 buildings scattered across Ottawa/Gatineau) into this campus.

If the city wants intensification, they need to stop their focus on restricting housing developments, and instead focus on driving more intensified commercial office & retail development around the core/transitway.

[reidjr]

45 minutes by bus??? Think 90 minutes to total commute time from home to office from Orleans, probably even worse from Gatineau. My commute by car is approximately the same (Cumberland area to Maitland area) and takes me 45-50 minutes in traffic door to door (except when in snows of course). It will be worse when LRT is implemented. Joe DND will have to take the following routes:
- Local route to Orleans Transit Huib
- "95" to Blair
- LRT to Tunney's
- "96" to Bayshore
- Local route to Nortel Campus


Yikes!!!

The idea that "since the campus was there anyway, somebody would have bought it" is not accurate, since they will be simply moving up to 10,000 jobs away from the Core (they occupy approx 150 buildings scattered across Ottawa/Gatineau) into this campus.

If the city wants intensification, they need to stop their focus on restricting housing developments, and instead focus on driving more intensified commercial office & retail development around the core/transitway.

You do understand the complex is already built.

[Acajack]

I would say that the largest single area of residence for NDHQ staff is Orleans, with the vast majority of these people commuting by bus.

Most of these people settled in Orleans when arriving in the region because of the good Transitway connection from that community to NDHQ on the east side of downtown.

If DND does move to the Nortel campus, it will be based on the same logic (illogic?) as the RCMP move, which was done in spite of the fact that 70% of RCMP HQ staff live in Gatineau and Orleans. Although RCMP HQ on Vanier Pkwy. was far from being as transit-friendly as NDHQ is, it was nonetheless a good exemple of transportation options driving place of residence choices. Vanier Parkway is accessible via the 174-417 coming in from Orleans, and the Macdonald-Cartier-St. Patrick-Vanier route coming in from Gatineau.

[Acajack]

If the city wants intensification, they need to stop their focus on restricting housing developments, and instead focus on driving more intensified commercial office & retail development around the core/transitway.

Although I think housing intensification is good, I agree 100% that densifying office and retail development is the most critical aspect of this.

I don't think think that the City of Ottawa approving large estate housing lots in Greely or Carlsbad Springs is a good idea, but most of the development in Orleans and Kanata that is being built these days is at a density that can be serviced by transit reasonably effectively. As evidenced by the fact that as suburban a place like Orleans can have a transit modal share that is equivalent or higher than that of many, many central parts of Toronto. It is not so much about where people live as it about where people are going to work. Much of the employment for Orleans residents is downtown or located along the Transitway corridor (Blair, St-Laurent, etc.), a fact which drives transit usage. Kanata has lower transit modal shares than Orleans because more of its employment is local and in low-density office parks that people have to drive to.

[flar]

I wouldn't want to work there...terrible location. However, if the feds didn't buy this huge campus, it would probably have sat empty forever.

[reidjr]

I wouldn't want to work there...terrible location. However, if the feds didn't buy this huge campus, it would probably have sat empty forever.

No i doubt it would have been empty.Its not that bad of a location at all.

[Acajack]

I wouldn't want to work there...terrible location. However, if the feds didn't buy this huge campus, it would probably have sat empty forever.

I once worked in a place like this and hated it. You had drive 10 minutes to get a sandwich for your lunch.

I see your point about the need to occupy vacant buildings, but I would prefer to see the feds use it as a less staff-intensive facility (warehousing, etc.).

[Richard Eade]

I would have rather seen the $200M go into developing the Tremblay Road campus, directly south of St. Laurent Centre. (The other $8M could have built a nice pedestrian crossing to the mall and transit.)

[flar]

No i doubt it would have been empty.Its not that bad of a location at all.

Putting aside the location for a moment, who exactly would fill such a large space (other than the feds)?

[Doug]

I once worked in a place like this and hated it. You had drive 10 minutes to get a sandwich for your lunch.

I see your point about the need to occupy vacant buildings, but I would prefer to see the feds use it as a less staff-intensive facility (warehousing, etc.).


The Carling Campus had a better food court than most malls - no need to drive anywhere.

[Doug]

Some one would have bought this site so its not like its the gov or nothing.When nortel was in its hayday alot of people did travel by bus i beleave oc even offered a special bus service.I have been on this site and for dnd or what every dept it is perfect there is 11 office buildings that includes gyms and cafes etc.I think there would have been alot of massive backlash if the gov came out and said were going to build 11 new office buildings downtown with gyms etc.That would cost double if not more then what they paud for this site.

At its peak, the Carling Campus had something like 12,000 employees. The road and transit systems seemed to handle the load back then (around 2000), so what is different now?

[reidjr]

Putting aside the location for a moment, who exactly would fill such a large space (other than the feds)?

Ericksson
I could have seen them buy it and make its north american hq.

Bell/Rogers
Could have bought it and made it hq.

[Doug]

Putting aside the location for a moment, who exactly would fill such a large space (other than the feds)?


Probably nobody. Carling was never designed for multi-tenant occupation so it would extremely difficult to divide up and lease. For eaxmple, some of the bulidngs (known as Labs back in the Nortel days) can only be accessed from other buildings. The federal government is probably the only single tenant that would need such a large amount of space.

Carling grew in fits and spurts from the 1950's through late 1990's, so the the layout of the building is very disjointed. It is exceptionally high quality office space, but too customized to be all that marketable. The Feds got a great deal on it.

[Doug]

Ericksson
I could have seen them buy it and make its north american hq.

Bell/Rogers
Could have bought it and made it hq.

Ericsson's NA HQ is in Texas, not all that far away from Nortel's former Richardson Campus, which was even larger than Carling. Ericsson has far too many employees in the North Dallas Telecom corridor to even consider relocating.

Roger's bought the former Nortel Bramalea Campus in Brampton. Bell's HQ is in Montreal.

[Doug]

The Feds already occupy the former Nortel locations at Skyline (Baseline and Merrivale), Woodline (Woodruff and Baseline) and Fitzgerald (Moody and Robertson).

[reidjr]

Ericsson's NA HQ is in Texas, not all that far away from Nortel's former Richardson Campus, which was even larger than Carling. Ericsson has far too many employees in the North Dallas Telecom corridor to even consider relocating.

Roger's bought the former Nortel Bramalea Campus in Brampton. Bell's HQ is in Montreal.

Yes but if the project went on the block it would have some interest.

[McC]

Putting aside the location for a moment, who exactly would fill such a large space (other than the feds)?

New Suburban University Campus?

[Acajack]

The Carling Campus had a better food court than most malls - no need to drive anywhere.

Good point there. It is true that this type of concentration of people can lead to some decent services being offered there.

[DubberDom]

At its peak, the Carling Campus had something like 12,000 employees. The road and transit systems seemed to handle the load back then (around 2000), so what is different now?

The problem is that DND will eventually displace 10,000 employees who currently have transitway access to a location without effective transit access.

If the Nortel buildings would have been sold to Microsoft and they would open up a new Ottawa lab with 10,000 jobs, it would not be that much of an issue. since these would be new jobs.

IBM was another rumoured suitor for the campus.

[reidjr]

The problem is that DND will eventually displace 10,000 employees who currently have transitway access to a location without effective transit access.

If the Nortel buildings would have been sold to Microsoft and they would open up a new Ottawa lab with 10,000 jobs, it would not be that much of an issue. since these would be new jobs.

IBM was another rumoured suitor for the campus.

It would have been a issue why because there is alot of hate to the burbs.People would have been up in arms why would they not build a mega complex in the core.The amount of posts on many sites that is just pure hate such comments as we need to cut services and raise taxes for those not living in the core.

[Dado]

The problem is that DND will eventually displace 10,000 employees who currently have transitway access to a location without effective transit access.

If the Nortel buildings would have been sold to Microsoft and they would open up a new Ottawa lab with 10,000 jobs, it would not be that much of an issue. since these would be new jobs.

You're kind of assuming that the vacated office space downtown will go unused. So long as it is reoccupied at roughly the same job density, there'll be no net job loss in the core.

And are all the jobs that are being moved actually downtown?

At least with the feds buying that campus, some pressure can be put on them to help fund an LRT extension further west to Bayshore or even to the campus itself. That kind of political pressure could not be so easily applied if a private sector buyer like Microsoft had bought it.

Maybe it'll even prompt us to reconsider the assumed future route of light rail west to Kanata using the Queensway from Bayshore - perhaps a route like Carling might make more sense, along with another more southerly route. We should also look into a rail bypass of downtown Ottawa to better enable employees from Orleans to get to this location.

If we could roll back time we'd be better off if the Nortel campus had never been built where it is, nor that of JDS in Nepean. There are plenty of other mistakes like these two that litter our landscape as well. But they exist now and there's not a lot that can be done about it, so wishing they didn't exist or ignoring them isn't a viable option either. Of course it would also be best if no more such developments came into being.

[Uhuniau]

I find it quite surprising that all the "urban intensification" advocates on this board are not all up in arms.

I reject the premise of your surprise!

Furthermore, PWGSC is building a new DND site in Hull on de la Carriere with barely any rapid transit access available from the Ottawa side.

And right next to the rail line that the idiots in Gatineau relocated to build their Crappybus.

If the Feds are moving out to the suburbs or away from the Transitway lines, should they not be responsible to ensure proper transportation infrastructure is in place?

Yes. But it's being done by a Conservative government, which has a very strong interest in making cities as car-dependent and suburban as possible. That's why the RCMP ended up where they did.

If I were mayor, I would insist that all new Federal Government buildings should be located within 400m (give or take) of a transitway station.

Starting by building up Tunney's more densely. That median thing is a waste of land.

[Uhuniau]

If the city wants intensification, they need to stop their focus on restricting housing developments, and instead focus on driving more intensified commercial office & retail development around the core/transitway.

No, they need to start driving more intensifed and diversified development - commercial, retail, institutional and residential - around the core/transitway.

But the suburb-oriented council, the suburb-oriented feds, and the car-fixated anti-urban NCC, won't go for it. Ottawa is screwed.

[Uhuniau]

The Carling Campus had a better food court than most malls - no need to drive anywhere.

Oh, a lovely, charming, food court.

[Doug]

The location of the Carling campus is due to the NCC, which offered subsidies starting back in the 1950's.

[eternallyme]

This is something I have wanted for a long time. If they would move their entire office out of downtown, then I think it is a genius idea. Having the DND HQ right downtown, quite simply, is too big of a security threat in the post-9/11 world. The location abutting the Greenbelt is much more secure and ideal for such.

As for the existing DND HQ, it would be MUCH more useful as a civilian office complex, or even a new hotel (although downtown Ottawa doesn't need more hotels - the suburbs badly do though).

As for transit access, I would create new 96 SPECIAL trips to service the DND HQ from the Transitway (terminating at DND), plus increase service on the 169 from Kanata (depending on passenger counts, could terminate at DND as well). Route 166 could also provide service, although it might have to be kept on Moodie Drive in periods of higher security (since it would be too much to ask for credentials when on a through bus for local communities). Route 182 would also be available on Carling Avenue.

[Dado]

:previous:

DNDHQ should be demolished and turned into a terminus-style station for high speed rail. Some reworking of Colonel By Drive and Nicholas would be required of course, but the problem of Nicholas and through traffic to Quebec should be addressed anyway.


And right next to the rail line that the idiots in Gatineau relocated to build their Crappybus.

It's cRapibus!

When it comes to transit in the NCR, this is what comes to mind:

Ottawa & Gatineau: Dumb & Dumber

[eternallyme]

:previous:

DNDHQ should be demolished and turned into a terminus-style station for high speed rail. Some reworking of Colonel By Drive and Nicholas would be required of course, but the problem of Nicholas and through traffic to Quebec should be addressed anyway.



It's cRapibus!

When it comes to transit in the NCR, this is what comes to mind:

Ottawa & Gatineau: Dumb & Dumber

It doesn't even need to be fully demolished for that, just they would need to re-work the lower floors.

[McC]

It doesn't even need to be fully demolished for that, just they would need to re-work the lower floors.
would it even need that? couldn't you just build a new station in the parking lot on east side of the building?

[eternallyme]

would it even need that? couldn't you just build a new station in the parking lot on east side of the building?

You'd need a large lobby for the high passenger counts.

I'd rather use the Government Conference Centre as a train station (restore it) but it would require an underground connection.

[Uhuniau]

This is something I have wanted for a long time. If they would move their entire office out of downtown, then I think it is a genius idea. Having the DND HQ right downtown, quite simply, is too big of a security threat in the post-9/11 world.

I don't believe DND is any more or less of a security issue now, than at any time on or before September 10, 2011.

[Uhuniau]

It's cRapibus!

When it comes to transit in the NCR, this is what comes to mind:

Ottawa & Gatineau: Dumb & Dumber

Dumb et plus dumb!

Can we have 73 municipalities plus the RMOC plus CUO back? Things worked better then than now! Just get rid of the NCC...

[gjhall]

You'd need a large lobby for the high passenger counts.

I'd rather use the Government Conference Centre as a train station (restore it) but it would require an underground connection.

In a city that thinks tunnels are an unproven technology, my hopes aren't high, but that would be the right thing to do. What comes to mind is the redevelopment of St Pancras in London that smartly integrated a new HSR terminal onto a great old train station. A huge glass domed structure with views of the city and the canal would be an incredible gateway to the city.

[rodionx]

It looks like PWGSC is buying up the Nortel Campus and will likely consolidate various DND groups into the location.

I find it quite surprising that all the "urban intensification" advocates on this board are not all up in arms. I often get accused of being some sort of pro-sprawl advocate (which is not true), and here is a prime example, once again, of the Federal Government buying up land and moving jobs away from the core into areas not currently accessible through direct rapid transit from all parts or the city.


It's a good point. I've had not one but two of the organizations I worked for move out to the suburbs - one to outermost Gatineau and the other to Kanata. In both cases, I just found a job closer to downtown. Lots of people did the same. Organizations that move out of the core should brace themselves to lose a LOT of people.

The flip side is that as a downtown resident, I don't get a lot of benefit from those office buildings in the core. Transit links, yes, but I also get thousands of suburban dwellers driving in and out of my neighbourhood every weekday, and not leaving much behind except fumes and shuttered storefronts. I'd rather see more residential condo towers in the core than office towers. Maybe not to Vancouver-like extremes, since a lot of people live downtown to be near work (self included), but the loss of commercial tenants ain't all bad.

[reidjr]

It's a good point. I've had not one but two of the organizations I worked for move out to the suburbs - one to outermost Gatineau and the other to Kanata. In both cases, I just found a job closer to downtown. Lots of people did the same. Organizations that move out of the core should brace themselves to lose a LOT of people.

The flip side is that as a downtown resident, I don't get a lot of benefit from those office buildings in the core. Transit links, yes, but I also get thousands of suburban dwellers driving in and out of my neighbourhood every weekday, and not leaving much behind except fumes and shuttered storefronts. I'd rather see more residential condo towers in the core than office towers. Maybe not to Vancouver-like extremes, since a lot of people live downtown to be near work (self included), but the loss of commercial tenants ain't all bad.

Maybe they will lose some but the sburbs does appeal to alot of people.

[Acajack]

Maybe they will lose some but the sburbs does appeal to alot of people.

Indeed. I live not too far from Library and Archives Canada on Boulevard de la Cité in Gatineau and this is apparently a highly sought-after location for public servants.

[rodionx]

Indeed. I live not too far from Library and Archives Canada on Boulevard de la Cité in Gatineau and this is apparently a highly sought-after location for public servants.

No it's not! That was where my office moved. :) The only person in the entire section who considered that a highly sought-after location was the one that actually lived out there. The other 98% went through all the stages of grief. I basically didn't have an HR person for a year because most of them found jobs elsewhere. And then I found a job elsewhere.

Suburban commuters fare worst during suburban moves, because most of them will end up with longer trips. If you move your offices to Kanata, the Orleans and Gatineau people get the short end of the stick. Move to Gatineau or Orleans, and it's the same in reverse. Suburban transit users get the worst of it. Their commutes will increase by at least an hour each way, and the connections are terrible. It's like getting two or three hours added to your workday with no increase in pay. Or you can buy a second car, but then you're subtracting the car payments, gas and insurance from your pay. Either way, it's a bad deal for everyone except the minority that live in and around that particular suburb.

And I'm not even going to mention the fact that you can't amble over to Starbucks or the nearest sushi place at lunch. Instead, you're sitting in a break room watching your colleagues eat. :slob:

[reidjr]

No it's not! That was where my office moved. :) The only person in the entire section who considered that a highly sought-after location was the one that actually lived out there. The other 98% went through all the stages of grief. I basically didn't have an HR person for a year because most of them found jobs elsewhere. And then I found a job elsewhere.

Suburban commuters fare worst during suburban moves, because most of them will end up with longer trips. If you move your offices to Kanata, the Orleans and Gatineau people get the short end of the stick. Move to Gatineau or Orleans, and it's the same in reverse. Suburban transit users get the worst of it. Their commutes will increase by at least an hour each way, and the connections are terrible. It's like getting two or three hours added to your workday with no increase in pay. Or you can buy a second car, but then you're subtracting the car payments, gas and insurance from your pay. Either way, it's a bad deal for everyone except the minority that live in and around that particular suburb.

And I'm not even going to mention the fact that you can't amble over to Starbucks or the nearest sushi place at lunch. Instead, you're sitting in a break room watching your colleagues eat. :slob:

You can't alwas assume people will do the drive some may move out to the area.Sure you can go out to have a coffe or lunch its only a 5 minute drive to bells corners.Its aslo a 5 minute drive the other way to the movie thearter were there is resturants etc.

[Acajack]

No it's not! That was where my office moved. :) The only person in the entire section who considered that a highly sought-after location was the one that actually lived out there. The other 98% went through all the stages of grief. I basically didn't have an HR person for a year because most of them found jobs elsewhere. And then I found a job elsewhere.

Suburban commuters fare worst during suburban moves, because most of them will end up with longer trips. If you move your offices to Kanata, the Orleans and Gatineau people get the short end of the stick. Move to Gatineau or Orleans, and it's the same in reverse. Suburban transit users get the worst of it. Their commutes will increase by at least an hour each way, and the connections are terrible. It's like getting two or three hours added to your workday with no increase in pay. Or you can buy a second car, but then you're subtracting the car payments, gas and insurance from your pay. Either way, it's a bad deal for everyone except the minority that live in and around that particular suburb.

And I'm not even going to mention the fact that you can't amble over to Starbucks or the nearest sushi place at lunch. Instead, you're sitting in a break room watching your colleagues eat. :slob:

What I meant was that now that it is done it is highly sought-after by the many thousands of public servants living in that vicinity but who work elsewhere for the feds. Move a department to Orleans or Kanata and the same thing would happen. It's a transitional thing - those who for whom it is not convenient move on and people who are more local take their place. I live not too far from Place de la Cité and talk to lots of neighbours and acquaintances at school and kids' activities and those who are public servants would all love to go work there and apply to competitions at LAC-BAC like crazy when they open up.

Also, not to be disparaging and is only a demographic observation but likely most people you talked to were anglophones and/or Ontario residents. Talk to the francophones who live on the Quebec side and probably most were likely quite happy with the move.

BTW, I am only reporting on my observations as I too hate these types of moves to empty fields and far prefer workplaces in downtown Hull or Ottawa that are accessible by transit and walkable for all basic services.

[Acajack]

You can't alwas assume people will do the drive some may move out to the area.Sure you can go out to have a coffe or lunch its only a 5 minute drive to bells corners.Its aslo a 5 minute drive the other way to the movie thearter were there is resturants etc.

LAC-BAC at Place de la Cité is close to Cinéma 9 and restaurants, etc. but it is not a five-minute drive to Bells Corners... Unless I am misunderstanding something here...

[rodionx]

What I meant was that now that it is done it is highly sought-after by the many thousands of public servants living in that vicinity but who work elsewhere for the feds. Move a department to Orleans or Kanata and the same thing would happen. It's a transitional thing - those who for whom it is not convenient move on and people who are more local take their place.

True, to a point. Over time the people that don't want to be there get out and new people for whom the location is convenient take those positions. It's a painful transition, though, because the first people to go are typically the ones with the skills that are most in demand. Organizations that do those moves also limit their recruiting pool over the long term. LAC has a longstanding retention problem, and that move didn't help.

Speaking of Nortel, it does have one advantage in that it will house a dense population of workers. They'll qualify for a cafeteria, at least, and they'll probably get semi decent bus service.

[reidjr]

LAC-BAC at Place de la Cité is close to Cinéma 9 and restaurants, etc. but it is not a five-minute drive to Bells Corners... Unless I am misunderstanding something here...

Sorry i meant the nortel campus.

[Acajack]

Organizations that do those moves also limit their recruiting pool over the long term.

I think it all evens out in the end. There is a huge number of people out there who avoid downtown jobs like the plague because a) they don`t want to pay high downtown parking rates and b) they don't want to take transit.
It seems totally nuts to me but the reality is that a significant proportion of the population would much rather drive from Kanata to Orleans and back every day if there is free parking at the end of the road, than work downtown even if it is half the distance (or more).
Plus, regardless of where they are located, these are still plum government jobs we are talking about. There always will be lots of takers when you consider the salary, job security, good benefits and a pension that for the average worker pretty much amounts to winning a $1 million lottery windfall.

[Acajack]

Sorry i meant the nortel campus.

My mistake. You were on topic! ;)

[Radster]

From what I heard from someone who works at DND in Gatineau, DND offices that are in scattered in Gatineau, will remain on the Quebec side for the most part, centralized in the 2 boul de la Carriere buildings (current one and the new one being built right beside). Its mostly all scattered Ottawa ones which will consolidate into the ex Nortel campus. At least its

[DubberDom]

I Think Orleans MPP Phil McNeely is paying attention... or perhaps he's a little miffed that they did not locate in Orleans


MPP expresses concerns over DND move
Posted Oct 28, 2010 By Phil McNeely


After reading carefully the article, "DND set to take over Nortel Campus," in the Saturday, October 16th Citizen, I felt compelled to address the constituents of Ottawa-Orléans.

Not a word from our Member of Parliament is heard on the move of CFB Orléans to Kanata.

The Federal Government, which is never one to consider the environment nor a sustainable city, will follow through on this plan.

The move will take place over the next three to five years.

This is just in time for the City of Ottawa to place the bus transitway on the Queensway from Blair to Nicholas Street, a detour that will last three to four years. This stretch of the Queensway will basically be a parking lot. How many people want to share the Queensway with a bus transitway as they commute to Kanata from Orléans from 2015 to 2019? How long will it take to get through the SPLIT?

This is the same federal government that moved the RCMP jobs in the East End to Nepean to make Poilievre's riding sustainable. Those were his words. What did it do to Orléans, the lowest jobs per household in the city?

It is wrong to look at the price of a building as the only criteria when making huge decisions like emptying 1 million square feet of office space downtown.

At a time when the city is spending 2.1 billion dollars to build the start of a light rail, including a tunnel downtown and will tie up the Queensway for the East End with a bus transitway detour for three to four years, it is no time to move 5,000 DND employees to Kanata and lower revenues for the new light rail.

Kanata will probably not be serviced by Light Rail until 2025.

Why not build half the space on the Shenkman property on Innes, 10 minutes to downtown and keep the other half million square feet in our downtown? That will maintain keeping CFB Orléans intact. We love having the military families in our community.

Remember, saving 350 million on a building is probably overshadowed 10 times by the cost of making this city less sustainable. Sucking jobs out of the downtown and away from Orléans will cost the East End and the downtown dearly. Imagine moving these jobs away from the new Light Rail Tunnel downtown to Kanata and 5,000 jobs away from Orléans. This is insanity!

Phil McNeely

MPP, Ottawa-Orléans

[Requin]

Sadly, this is too little, too late. However, as a DND employee and resident of Orleans, I am glad to see someone relatively high up in the political food chain speak up on behalf of the east end.

I remember the Innes location being talked about as a potential DND building several years ago. Would have been great for Orleans.

[Acajack]

Good points by the people from Orleans. That part of the region is really getting the short end of the stick it seems and seems doomed to remain a "bedroom" for a long, long time.

RCMP in Barrhaven, DND on the fringes of Kanata, and lots of stuff in Gatineau. But nothing for Orleans, and to add insult to injury RCMP and DND were central Ottawa employers that were particularly heavy on Orleans residents. Now they are moving them even further away.

[BlackRedGold]

Good points by the people from Orleans. That part of the region is really getting the short end of the stick it seems and seems doomed to remain a "bedroom" for a long, long time.

RCMP in Barrhaven, DND on the fringes of Kanata, and lots of stuff in Gatineau. But nothing for Orleans, and to add insult to injury RCMP and DND were central Ottawa employers that were particularly heavy on Orleans residents. Now they are moving them even further away.

Well, Gatineau gets them for purely political reasons while the western burbs are merely the government taking advantage of buildings vacated by the tech bust. Since it is tax dollars paying for the office space, getting value for the money is important.

I find it ironic that McNeely brings up sustainability but advocates building on the worst big box mess of a road in the city.

[Uhuniau]

Kanata will have light rail by 2025?

Wow. That means it'll have light rail before Ottawa does.

Where will it run to? Bells Corners?

[Acajack]

Well, Gatineau gets them for purely political reasons .

Actually, Gatineau mainly gets them because it has the cheapest centrally-located land in the entire capital region.

[kilroy]

This is part of a memo sent around DND last Friday evening. It is edited and of course, I cannot provide a link due to the format it was sent.

"Today’s announcement that DND/CF will be the tenant at Nortel’s Carling Avenue Campus in Ottawa is a major step forward in strengthening the Defence Team in the National Capital Region (NCR).

Starting in 2011 planning will begin to move members of the Defence Team working in the NCR to the campus over a five to seven year period. The announcement, made by Public Works and Government Services Canada, provides us with the opportunity to address a number of organizational issues we have faced over the years and dramatically reduce the number of DND/CF locations in the NCR from 48 to just seven.

A modern, state-of-the-art facility, the campus includes 360 acres of green space, wetlands, and bicycle paths. Consolidation of our footprint in this campus approach will reduce our operational and accommodation costs, strengthen our departmental security and help us to work more effectively and efficiently together.

The move will co-locate a majority of the thousands of Defence Team members within the NCR. Some use may continue to be made of the Major-General George R. Pearkes Building and Star Top will continue for the time being to serve as the operational command building. Other facilities, such as the Louis St. Laurent Building, a new building at 455 Blvd de la Carrière, parts of the National Printing Bureau, and the Hôtel de Ville building in Gatineau will continue to accommodate many members of the organization.

Other buildings currently occupied by DND will be vacated over time and employees now working in those locations will either move into one of the above-mentioned buildings or to the campus."

Mods, feel free to delete this if deemed inappropriate.

[Cre47]

The building I am will be hit hard with all this moving. It has six floors occupied by DND out of the 22. Two of them are already completely empty (one of them was gutted by flooding multiple times this summer) and another is occupied by probably 10 people or so. The other three floors are probably one-half to three-quarters full.

The Armed Forces Recruitment Center will likely stay downtown.

I'm sure Place Vanier might have quite a bit of vacant space because of the DND departure. But I'm sure it will fill quite quickly, the same might not be said at my building. The top floor has been sit empty for years.