Veteran's Memorial Extension to St. Thomas

[Kokkei Mizu]

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=108718565173998130817.00048ea9b1cc6a3dfbea7&ll=42.871435,-81.131287&spn=0.204563,0.308647&z=12

This is something I have been working on, and I'd like everybody's thoughts.

A few things I would like to point out:
- This is obviously a long term plan, I don't think this will be implemented tomorrow.
- When I say interchange, I assume they would be built as at grade intersections first and upgraded at a later time.
- At grade intersections would typically be like VMP intersections now.
- The southern most point with Highway 3 may be a very important interchange in the future if the Highway 3 bypass gets extended to the east as originally planned.

[Kokkei Mizu]

Anybody have any thoughts? Do you see this ever happening? Do you think it would be beneficial?

[manny_santos]

Anybody have any thoughts? Do you see this ever happening? Do you think it would be beneficial?

I think it'll be beneficial, but I don't see it happening in my lifetime. More likely in my lifetime will be expansions of the existing Wellington and Highbury corridors to four lanes undivided.

Considering my age, it could be after 2050 before even that happens.

Note: I am making the assumption that no ferry across Lake Erie to Ohio or Pennsylvania is established. If there is one established, all of this could easily change.

[haljackey]

The biggest obstacle I see with is is the interchange with the 401. Four-way, free-flowing interchanges are crazy expensive and not a single one is found in Ontario outside of the Greater Golden Horseshoe. I doubt the city, provincial and federal governments will cough up the money for this.
-Although it doesn't have to be one of those super-expensive diamond stacks. Something lower capacity like a clover-turbine design would work as volumes will be lower and there isn't dense development nearby.

As it stands, the city actually wants to extend the VMP south to Wilton Grove, but change the interchange to a parclo design like Highbury and Wellington. This is not a free-flowing design and it makes no sense if you want to upgrade the VMP into a freeway / expressway with interchanges.

I agree with manny_santos that we are much more likely to see a four-lane road between the two cities, possibly with commuter rail restored sometime in the future. Highway 4 is already 4 lanes a lot of the way... perhaps upgrading the existing two lane sections to four lanes would be a plus (402 to 401, Talbotville/Ford plant to Wellington).

Also, a Wonderland Road extension could also work. South of the 401, it's a dirt road. It could continue as a 4 lane expressway to Highway 3 / the Saint Thomas Expressway after the 401 interchange is built. See this crappy drawing I made in paint as an example:

http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/3488/clipboard02dm.jpg

[Kokkei Mizu]

Note: I am making the assumption that no ferry across Lake Erie to Ohio or Pennsylvania is established. If there is one established, all of this could easily change.

Oh! I didn't even think about that! Yes, if that happens, I could see Veteran's Memorial have more of an expansion like this, bypassing St. Thomas:

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=42.800439,-81.074295&spn=0.409595,0.617294&z=11&msid=108718565173998130817.000490e2d88e4026e3b37

[haljackey]

Oh! I didn't even think about that! Yes, if that happens, I could see Veteran's Memorial have more of an expansion like this, bypassing St. Thomas:

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=42.800439,-81.074295&spn=0.409595,0.617294&z=11&msid=108718565173998130817.000490e2d88e4026e3b37

See, I always thought it might involve a Highway 402 extension like this:

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/1289/dddob.jpg

It would get ya to Cleveland, Cider Point and Florida real fast! :cheers:

[MolsonExport]

The question begs: Does St. Thomas (pop 36000) really need a direct freeway link, and if so, why? Not industry: trucks can cruise at 100 km/h already on the the provincial highways in and around St T. What about that crazy little mini freeway in St T.? Looks like the powers believed that it would be expanded to a true freeway with divided lanes, but it never happened.

[Kokkei Mizu]

The question begs: Does St. Thomas (pop 36000) really need a direct freeway link, and if so, why? Not industry: trucks can cruise at 100 km/h already on the the provincial highways in and around St T. What about that crazy little mini freeway in St T.? Looks like the powers believed that it would be expanded to a true freeway with divided lanes, but it never happened.

I have seen the feasibility study for the St. Thomas Expressway. It was designed as a freeway from the 401 (connection near Mill Rd.) that connected to Talbot Line (Highway 3) near New Sarum. However, this was to be done in phases, and only Phase 1 was completed. The doubling was to happen in a later phase that just was never executed.

Also, St. Thomas does not have a good way to get trucks to the city. Most trucks will be coming from the Toronto area, and Highbury Avenue is already over used, and Wellington Rd. is too far to the west. I think expansion of Highbury Avenue to four lanes is a next logical step, but it doesn't hurt to look at VMP being extended.

And the thing about having that freeway idea connection the 402 to Port Stanley. That won't help for St. Thomas' economy. Trucks, as I said, are mostly coming from the east. And east St. Thomas is where most of the industries are. I think VMP is a better solution to provide access to industries in St. Thomas, the airport, and Port Stanley.

[ForestryW]

I firmly believe that the solution is not to build more roads, but to enhance existing ones. I think most transportation planners these days also share that opinion and for that reason I can't see a VMP extension to St. Thomas ever happening.

[go_leafs_go02]

The biggest obstacle I see with is is the interchange with the 401. Four-way, free-flowing interchanges are crazy expensive and not a single one is found in Ontario outside of the Greater Golden Horseshoe. I doubt the city, provincial and federal governments will cough up the money for this.
-Although it doesn't have to be one of those super-expensive diamond stacks. Something lower capacity like a clover-turbine design would work as volumes will be lower and there isn't dense development nearby.

As it stands, the city actually wants to extend the VMP south to Wilton Grove, but change the interchange to a parclo design like Highbury and Wellington. This is not a free-flowing design and it makes no sense if you want to upgrade the VMP into a freeway / expressway with interchanges.

I agree with manny_santos that we are much more likely to see a four-lane road between the two cities, possibly with commuter rail restored sometime in the future. Highway 4 is already 4 lanes a lot of the way... perhaps upgrading the existing two lane sections to four lanes would be a plus (402 to 401, Talbotville/Ford plant to Wellington).

Also, a Wonderland Road extension could also work. South of the 401, it's a dirt road. It could continue as a 4 lane expressway to Highway 3 / the Saint Thomas Expressway after the 401 interchange is built. See this crappy drawing I made in paint as an example:

http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/3488/clipboard02dm.jpg


That's redundant. Highway 4 (Colonel Talbot) is already a perfect 4-5 lanes wide south of the 401. Enhance that road. Why have two expressways side by side separated by a distance of 1-2 km.

enhance Highway 4 to connect into Talbotville & St. Thomas.

[Kokkei Mizu]

That's redundant. Highway 4 (Colonel Talbot) is already a perfect 4-5 lanes wide south of the 401. Enhance that road. Why have two expressways side by side separated by a distance of 1-2 km.

enhance Highway 4 to connect into Talbotville & St. Thomas.

Highway 4 has many more homes on it than Wonderland Rd. There would be more opposition to upgrading highway 4, especially through Talbotville.