Hypothetical discussion - Gottingen Street and Agricola Street

[halifaxboyns]

I've noticed a lot more happening on Gottingen Street lately and my prediction that it would start seeing development pressure seems to be coming true; so I wanted to get some discussion going about what people would like to see happen there?

Just some planning perspectives: The area is capped at 40 and 50 foot height restrictions; but has some of the easiest development rules in the City (Gottingen Street). Agricola Street is capped at different heights along the street (typically 40 and 50 feet).

My thoughts:
I've travelled to Vancouver a number of times and I've always seen both of these streets having the potential to be something like Cambie street in Vancouver. There has been a lot of pressure for big box retail wanting to be downtown (the staples on Gottingen and Cogswell for example) so why not let them move close to downtown, but do something like Cambie or what they did on Younge Street in Toronto.

Allow buildings at the property line, where retail is on the ground floor or maybe the second floor. So sportcheck could go in on the ground floor and next to it's entrance there might be another 10 by 10 m area with a big future shop sign, but its nothing but an escolator and elevator up to the store on the 2nd floor. You could also have some smaller retail spaces for things like coffee shops, hair salons, restaurants, boutiques, etc.

So then above the commercial stuff, you put apartments and condos above but they wouldn't up against the street - they'd have to be setback so that there would be sunlight penetration (much like what HbD talks about). For Gottingen Street, the seniors residence on Cunard sets probably an unrealistic height max (I think it's 20 stories?) - but maybe around the 10 to 12 story mark (2 stories commercial, then 10 residential) might be workable. I wouldn't have a problem if people consolidated the lots so that they were the whole block between Gottingen and Maitland or Gottingen and Creighton Street - so that parking could come off the Creighton and Cunard. The same would be true on Agricola - the parking could come off John Street or the other side streets. I'd want to see parking be underground and that all developments contribute to a small parkade - but I think giving those big retail stores a chance would really be interesting. Would be cool to see a sobeys at the corner of Gottingen and Prince William with condos above it - then you could have public parking taken off Gottingen and Cunard Street and build a small parkade on that vacant parcel next to the church on Cunard.

I'd definately want a park somewhere there and I'd love the community garden to be kept; but you could then run a trolley up one of the streets so people could walk too it. Plus; they would be able to take transit to work or if they work in downtown walk!

Would make the area better and brighter and more friendly. I'd even go with reduced parking requirements, because of close proximity to transit and downtown.

What does everyone think? What would people do about Uniacke Square? I'm not sure what I'd do about that.
The other great thing is that the viewplanes don't touch this area - so I think only the rampart heights would apply (if you really wanted to go high).

[Keith P.]

Most of Gottingen from North St to Cogswell needs to be bulldozed -- and that wold include Uniacke Square. Put in a proper north-south artery with 4 lanes and direct access to/from the Macdonald bridge without traffic lights or at-grade intersections.

As for Agricola, what you are talking about is a total change for what is currently largely a street with 2-story wood frame row houses. I'm not sure why yo would want to destroy all that since the area is having a renaissance.

As for trolleys/streetcars, I fail to see many advantages to them.

[halifaxboyns]

I look at Agricola as a logical extension of commercial opportunities on Gottingen, if it were to develop.

But it's one idea - i'm sure there are many other thoughts...but it's also close to downtown; so it could be an area that builds slightly higher? Maybe 4 story or something?

As for streetcars, I'm neither for or against them - but in order for the concept I suggested to work, there would have to be no parking on Gottingen at all - which would allow the street to be 4 lane (since the additional lane would come from where cars park).

[Keith P.]

As for streetcars, I'm neither for or against them - but in order for the concept I suggested to work, there would have to be no parking on Gottingen at all - which would allow the street to be 4 lane (since the additional lane would come from where cars park).

The only cars that are parking on Gottingen right now are either doing drug deals or making arrangements with hookers. Good luck getting them to respect the "No Parking" signs.

[halifaxboyns]

LOL good point! But then if you have bulldozed Uniacke square - would they even still be there? :)

[someone123]

The big problem with Gottingen is that, because it was a poorer part of the city, it was used as a place to concentrate undesirable social services. For it to become a normal part of the city, some of those things would have to be relocated.

I don't know details about the demographics of Uniacke Square in terms of how healthy and capable its residents are but it seems like most of them don't need social housing. That kind of housing should be reserved for elderly and ill people who can't take care of themselves, and it doesn't need to be on a Uniacke Square scale. Those buildings should be demolished, the land should be re-subdivided and sold off, and the current residents should be given money to go towards new housing.

I'd love to see Gottingen get to the point where it can have services like a grocery store but realistically for that to happen it would need thousands of new residents. From 2001-2006 the area north of Cornwallis was losing population, although maybe that is reversing now.

[halifaxboyns]

The big problem with Gottingen is that, because it was a poorer part of the city, it was used as a place to concentrate undesirable social services. For it to become a normal part of the city, some of those things would have to be relocated.

I don't know details about the demographics of Uniacke Square in terms of how healthy and capable its residents are but it seems like most of them don't need social housing. That kind of housing should be reserved for elderly and ill people who can't take care of themselves, and it doesn't need to be on a Uniacke Square scale. Those buildings should be demolished, the land should be re-subdivided and sold off, and the current residents should be given money to go towards new housing.

I'd love to see Gottingen get to the point where it can have services like a grocery store but realistically for that to happen it would need thousands of new residents. From 2001-2006 the area north of Cornwallis was losing population, although maybe that is reversing now.

I had heard rumours that because uniacke square was a social housing complex, that the owner was considering selling off the land to a private owner who wanted to re-develop the whole thing. I know some people who live in that area and they had heard some residents were quite upset because the developer who was negoatiating to buy the land was refusing to give residents a chance to be first ones in to buy and wasn't going to give them a discounted rate.

So if that rumour is true - could be seeing the first step of new life. I've said in another post that sometimes you have to really take chances in order to see potential in an area; I see potential; but share the skeptical nature. Also, if you did try to utilize my concept; parking might be an issue for people coming - which is why I suggested a common parkade. But on street parking would be an issue on the surrounding area too.

[planarchy]

I look at Agricola as a logical extension of commercial opportunities on Gottingen, if it were to develop.
This is really where we need to be looking when talking about the future of the city. It is less confined, a more more reasonable place for a dense downtown for pedestrians and biking, etc. It is flat, it more strategically located on the peninsula, less opposition, more potential overall.

I think Agricola has already passed Gottingen, as far as a commercial destination in the city. I think Agricola and North is easily one of the most interesting and vibrant neighbourhoods in the city. It does sort of disintegrate into nothing as you approach the brewery, but then are into the Hydrostone area with lots of new development. The redevelopment of the NSLC property + the eventual redevelopment of the Bloomfield site will only ensure that this is one of top spots in the future.

As well housing along many of the streets in between Agricola and Gottingen (south end) - Falkland, Maynard, etc. is some of the most expensive residential real estate in the city. New developments on Gottingen - Falkland building, Theatre Lofts, the renovation of old Turnstile Pottery building, Glubes project, Gottingen Terrace, Brickyard development, and some other smaller reno projects are certainly changing the area, despite a large concentration of social services. And if you spend any time on Gottingen St. it is easy to tell that the neighbour is changing fast.

I don't really see Uniacke as such a problem as the area develops, but i do think it needs to be reconnected to the grid by extending maitland. Maybe in can be redeveloped in the future - could certainly take some more density for an inner city housing block - but I don' t think it will be an obstacle to the development of the street.

[coolmillion]

The big problem with Gottingen is that, because it was a poorer part of the city, it was used as a place to concentrate undesirable social services. For it to become a normal part of the city, some of those things would have to be relocated.

A great thing about Gottingen and surrounding areas is that due (in part) to the stigma attached to it, rents are relatively affordable (though increasing) and the area is home to a great diversity of people including immigrants, young families, blacks, whites, low income people, gay people, students, etc. as well as small businesses. What I would like to see happen is for density to increase without necessarily displacing what you call "undesirable" services or poorer residents. If anything is undesirable in the neighbourhood it is the remaining crack houses, drug dealers (in great decline in recent years). The services are there for people from all over Halifax who need them and use them. Arguably the services play a role in reducing criminal activity because they connecting people with community, health care, counseling, etc.

I agree that something needs to be done with uniacke square (and Mulgrave Park - perhaps in worse condition but less visible). These are poorly designed relics of modernist planning that encourage segregation and stigmatization of poverty. Ideally I'd like to see much denser mixed use urban form with some kind of social mixing (nice in theory, difficult to achieve).

As for bulldozing Gottingen and turning it into a commuter thoroughfare (Keith)... not a fan of this idea...

[someone123]

As well housing along many of the streets in between Agricola and Gottingen (south end) - Falkland, Maynard, etc. is some of the most expensive residential real estate in the city. New developments on Gottingen - Falkland building, Theatre Lofts, the renovation of old Turnstile Pottery building, Glubes project, Gottingen Terrace, Brickyard development, and some other smaller reno projects are certainly changing the area, despite a large concentration of social services. And if you spend any time on Gottingen St. it is easy to tell that the neighbour is changing fast.

One thing I will say is that ten years ago I would not have expected this level of development for Gottingen Street. For a long time it sort of bottomed out but it seems to have really turned a corner a few years ago.

I don't think Agricola is a good choice for large-scale commercial development but it is becoming an attractive neighbourhood. It's really too bad that the McCully Worklofts project is dead (sadly, the website still says spring 2010 occupancy).

[halifaxboyns]

Some interesting thoughts that this thread has come up with. It might be that if anything were to change in either area - that Agricola would be the easier one to do changes too - although the older housing maybe worth saving and incorporating into some sort of greater project?

As for Gottingen; no idea is without it's problems. BUt I see both areas with huge potential - especially Uniacke square. It could be a huge mixed use area with residential towers; since the viewplanes don't apply.

[fenwick16]

Some interesting thoughts that this thread has come up with. It might be that if anything were to change in either area - that Agricola would be the easier one to do changes too - although the older housing maybe worth saving and incorporating into some sort of greater project?

As for Gottingen; no idea is without it's problems. BUt I see both areas with huge potential - especially Uniacke square. It could be a huge mixed use area with residential towers; since the viewplanes don't apply.

I hope that this will be the case, i.e. that view planes won't exist in this area. With HRMbyDesign very restrictive height controls have been introduced even where viewplanes didn't exist previously. There has been talk about extending the HRMbyDesign throughout the HRM.

[Keith P.]

There has been talk about extending the HRMbyDesign throughout the HRM.

Only planning geeks would be having such chatter. It would serve no purpose.

[planarchy]

There has been talk about extending the HRMbyDesign throughout the HRM.

Are you sure about this? I really don't think this is the case - introducing form-based code legislation throughout the entire HRM would be a ridiculous exercise. HRMbyDesign specifically addresses urban context and I don't think you can really classify anywhere else in HRM as urban in quality. Geez, you can even argue that the city core is barely urban :D

It should also be noted that while Agricola carries on quite successfully through North street, even picking up again in this area, and then again at the hydrostone, Gottingen is really limited by North street - from the on ramp to the bridge, to the large seniors complex, to the military base. Near the hyrostone, it does pick up again, even more so with the St. Joseph's church site development, but these other large obstacles make it less likely as a retail destination that works at the scale of the city. Agricola, on the otherhand, has seen tremendous changes, really quickly, and somewhat successfully (minus a few voids near the brewery area) manages to span a good chunk of the peninsula through a series of really strong retail intersections.

[halifaxboyns]

I remember hearing about HRM doing some similar work in Bedford - but I don't think it would go completely HRM wide. I thought the focus had been on doing HbD in only specific locations like Dartmouth downtown and other potential redevelopment locations.

[halifaxboyns]

Only planning geeks would be having such chatter. It would serve no purpose.

I don't necessairily agree with that - I've gotten the impression from all the discussions on this board (in general) that people see HRM as a place that's growing (all be it slowly).

If HRM is growing and changing - then we need to have these discussions because there seems to be a reasonable acceptance that sprawl type growth isn't a good thing. So if that's the case, where would the growth be? Having these discussions also gets people thinking about change and getting over the fear that change is bad.