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waterloowarrior
Mar 19, 2010, 4:12 AM
Run buses from Via station: Mayor
By JON WILLING, OTTAWA SUN
Last Updated: March 18, 2010 8:35pm
http://www.ottawasun.com/news/ottawa/2010/03/18/13283171.html

Mayor Larry O’Brien is greasing the wheels to create a transportation nucleus at the Via Rail station off Riverside Dr.

O’Brien is trying to get Via onboard with the idea, which would have the train station be a one-stop shop for Greyhound bus, Via train and city transit services in the national capital.

“It’s good to have a transportation hub,” O’Brien said Thursday after sending a letter to Via president Marc Laliberte pitching the idea.

The mayor had discussed the possibility with former Via president Paul Cote, who retired at the end of 2009.

Now, O’Brien is asking Laliberte to enter the discussion with an open mind.

Greyhound has already indicated it would be interested in moving its operations from the current bus terminal on Catherine St. to the Via station on Tremblay Rd., O’Brien said.

In fact, O’Brien said the move could happen within a matter of months if Via accepted the proposal.

The setup would have added benefits since bus rapid transit and the future light-rail system would be within steps of the station.

O’Brien said a full service transit station could be the perfect base for trains, buses and taxis.

Ongoing development in the area of the train yards is creating a destination point in Ottawa, with shopping and the baseball stadium nearby.

And if Greyhound does move, it could spur development of the existing bus station downtown, the mayor said.

jon.willing@sunmedia.ca



some pros
-better access to various modes of transportation
-better bus service (transitway station, future metro station)
-existing station could be redeveloped

cons
-isolated, can't really walk anywhere (for now)
-"destination point" may take a while to happen
-distance from core: if we are going to put all the effort into moving it, is there a spot closer to the core? one of the great things about Toronto's bus station is that you get off and within a short distance you have Dundas Square, hotels, Eaton Centre, etc.

adam-machiavelli
Mar 19, 2010, 4:22 AM
I think the station should be relocated but that it should be directly connected to the Nicholas mini-freeway. One possibility is moving it to Laurier station when the downtown tunnel opens.

IntoTheCore
Mar 19, 2010, 1:43 PM
My first thought when I read that article last night was, "Holy cow. Did our mayor have a decent idea?"

Another possible pro: getting the bus station off the current site would open it up for another condo development. Would the neighbourhood complain about a new building's height after years of bus noise and exhaust?

On the other hand, I don't see any room on the train station site for buses not in use -- unless they take over one of the parking lots or the lawn in front of the station. I'm guessing Greyhound wouldn't have expressed any interest if they hadn't already considered this.

eternallyme
Mar 19, 2010, 5:53 PM
I'd just abandon that site, build tracks back to Union Station and get everything back downtown. That would be especially advantageous for commuter rail service, but having VIA trains run right to the core would also increase ridership there too. The train yards development sure turned out to be a huge waste of land and the existing station has far less redevelopment potential.

If the LRT proposal is not revised, then the best place to reconnect to downtown would be at the Hurdman curve (convert into a wye), with tracks crossing the Rideau River and the remaining sections all underground. The tunnel would have to be designed to clear the underground LRT AND also clear any future truck route to Gatineau. Buses should be moved to a possible bus terminal (shared with OC Transpo and STO for downtown-terminating routes) on the northeast corner of the Rideau Centre, which is currently a parking lot about 400m away. The Rideau Centre could easily expand over the bus terminal, and also encompass the abandoned (heritage?) building at Rideau and Nicholas. That area would become a huge transportation hub.

The tunnel would be about 3.2 km in length, with 2 tracks initially then widening to at least 6-8 tracks into the station (2-3 tracks for VIA and 4-5 tracks for commuter trains). It would run beneath Major's Hill Park where storage tracks could be added. In the future, if a Gatineau extension is desired, the Alexandra Bridge could be re-used by returning the tracks to the surface after clearing Major's Hill Park.

gjhall
Mar 19, 2010, 6:08 PM
I'd just abandon that site, build tracks back to Union Station and get everything back downtown. That would be especially advantageous for commuter rail service, but having VIA trains run right to the core would also increase ridership there too. The train yards development sure turned out to be a huge waste of land and the existing station has far less redevelopment potential.

If the LRT proposal is not revised, then the best place to reconnect to downtown would be at the Hurdman curve (convert into a wye), with tracks crossing the Rideau River and the remaining sections all underground. The tunnel would have to be designed to clear the underground LRT AND also clear any future truck route to Gatineau. Buses should be moved to a possible bus terminal (shared with OC Transpo and STO for downtown-terminating routes) on the northeast corner of the Rideau Centre, which is currently a parking lot about 400m away. The Rideau Centre could easily expand over the bus terminal, and also encompass the abandoned (heritage?) building at Rideau and Nicholas. That area would become a huge transportation hub.

The tunnel would be about 3.2 km in length, with 2 tracks initially then widening to at least 6-8 tracks into the station (2-3 tracks for VIA and 4-5 tracks for commuter trains). It would run beneath Major's Hill Park where storage tracks could be added. In the future, if a Gatineau extension is desired, the Alexandra Bridge could be re-used by returning the tracks to the surface after clearing Major's Hill Park.


There are lots of complications to this but I think we all know that this would be the best end result. We need to dream bigger in this city and demand the kind of major funds other large cities get out of provincial and federal governments.

jcollins
Mar 19, 2010, 6:12 PM
My first thought when I read that article last night was, "Holy cow. Did our mayor have a decent idea?"

Another possible pro: getting the bus station off the current site would open it up for another condo development. Would the neighbourhood complain about a new building's height after years of bus noise and exhaust?

And you could do a pretty decent project there. Ease of access to the 417 might be appealing. Combine it with the Beaver Barracks site and that area along caroline gets an immediate face lift

On the other hand, I don't see any room on the train station site for buses not in use -- unless they take over one of the parking lots or the lawn in front of the station. I'm guessing Greyhound wouldn't have expressed any interest if they hadn't already considered this.

If they used this site, and had to build an expansion they should do it where the parking lot is and include underground short/long term parking underneath.

eternallyme
Mar 19, 2010, 6:16 PM
There are lots of complications to this but I think we all know that this would be the best end result. We need to dream bigger in this city and demand the kind of major funds other large cities get out of provincial and federal governments.

It would likely cost a lot of money, but the bus parts wouldn't be too expensive as the land is already there - it is currently a parking lot! It would provide a convenient place for layovers for all buses - intercity, some STO (mainly off-peak) and all OC Transpo - that terminate downtown. I think about 20-25 buses could fit on the site at once, in addition to the bus stops that would be necessary.

The abandoned building could have its bus facilities on the lower level (with the upper levels being part of an expanded Rideau Centre). Greyhound buses (due to the necessity of luggage facilities) would use the eastern part of the site, and OC Transpo, STO and other municipal/commuter bus layovers would use the western part. Above it all could be the Rideau Centre (at their expense but they would retain aerial rights). Bus stops would be located at the Besserer Street entrance and on Rideau Street.

AuxTown
Mar 19, 2010, 6:29 PM
Pros & Cons of Greyhound Terminal Move
Daniel Proussalidis with Stephanie Kinsella
Friday, March 19, 2010

Some city councillors are backing Ottawa Mayor Larry O'Brien's call for the downtown Greyhound bus terminal to move to the main VIA Rail train station in the next few months.

But others say the city's transit upgrades should come first.

Diane Holmes says a transportation hub on Tremblay Rd. for buses and trains would only work when the light rail route is completed.

That is a project that doesn't have all of its funding secured yet.

"There is poor public transit connection to that train station at the moment," says Holmes.

But Rainer Bloess sees the move as an upgrade from the current Greyhound terminal on Catherine St.

"It makes so much sense. There's already one of our main east-west cycling paths [that] goes right through there," says Bloess.

O'Brien says he hopes the request made to VIA Rail this week will get approval within months.

He adds that he's been working behind the scenes on the plan for months and already has Greyhound support.


Diane Holmes is retarded. I guess, by poor transit connections, she means 24-hour coverage with less than 5 minute frequencies at peak times.

It would be nice to have our bus terminal right downtown, but I just don't think there's enough room for something of this scale around Union or the Rideau Centre. This would also be very expensive and would bring more traffic to an area that I would like to see become more and more pedestrian friendly. The train station receives 24-hour a day bus service from the 95 and it's less than a 10 minute trip from downtown. Catherine Street is not exactly the perfect central location as it's not really close to any tourist areas, is a little bit off from the most populated areas, and borders a pretty grungy part of town. I'd be interested to hear what they propose building in terms of structure at the terminal.

jcollins
Mar 19, 2010, 7:01 PM
Ya she's definitely way off on this one. Sure, it'll be fantastic when LRT is serving this location, but it sure works now too.

As much as I'd like to see a downtown location, this is the next best thing, and potentially better. The main thing is as long as it's on a main transit line, then it's a good thing. Much better than it is now. As much as a downtown location is nice, if transit can get you downtown (or elsewhere) quickly then the location can work.

Dado
Mar 19, 2010, 7:21 PM
Move DND out of its current digs and knock down those butt-ugly towers.

The lack of space problem for a downtown rail & intercity bus terminal is then solved.

eemy
Mar 19, 2010, 7:23 PM
I also strongly support this as the transit access to the other terminal was grossly inadequate.

There is a common sentiment that the existing train station should be abandoned and the old Union Station re-used. I think this would be a huge mistake. I remain optimistic that the old Union Station will find another use; however, if the existing train station is abandoned, it almost certainly would be demolished, which would be a shame, as it is actually a very fine building in its own right and a good example of architecture from its era. Although it is far more isolated, it is well connected being on the Transitway. Personally, these sentiments seem to be a somewhat naive sentimentality - there aren't very many other reasons to return train service to Union Stn that would justify the expense.

phil235
Mar 19, 2010, 7:38 PM
I also strongly support this as the transit access to the other terminal was grossly inadequate.

There is a common sentiment that the existing train station should be abandoned and the old Union Station re-used. I think this would be a huge mistake. I remain optimistic that the old Union Station will find another use; however, if the existing train station is abandoned, it almost certainly would be demolished, which would be a shame, as it is actually a very fine building in its own right and a good example of architecture from its era. Although it is far more isolated, it is well connected being on the Transitway. Personally, these sentiments seem to be a somewhat naive sentimentality - there aren't very many other reasons to return train service to Union Stn that would justify the expense.

Establishing a viable commuter rail system is a pretty good reason. I could be wrong, but I'm not aware of any commuter system in North America where the trains stop 3km from downtown and everyone has to hop on a bus to get where they are going.

blackjagger
Mar 19, 2010, 7:51 PM
Establishing a viable commuter rail system is a pretty good reason. I could be wrong, but I'm not aware of any commuter system in North America where the trains stop 3km from downtown and everyone has to hop on a bus to get where they are going.

Well a bus hopefully for only a short period of time. I would say that most commuter systems in North America connect with other forms of mass transit to get you where you want to go. Penn/Grand Central/Union/Gare Centrale, most commuters still have to hop on a subway to get where they want to go, so 3 kms or acouple of blocks would not be that different if you are making a transfer anyways.

Cheers,
Josh

Radster
Mar 19, 2010, 8:11 PM
I think the pros outweight the cons here, as this would be a huge improvement from the status quo. Yes in a perfect world the train station and central inter-city bus station would be at Union, but its not a very realistic option at the moment, I think we all agree.

Furthermore, there are many cities around the world with inter-city bus stations not right downtown, same with main train stations. Its no big deal if there is an excellent public transit connection to the downtown and other parts of the city to make up for that (which is the case here).

For now there aren't many places to walk to from this location, but that is slowly changing. The trainyards big box centre is right beside, there is a hotel which is expanding across the Queensway, St-Laurent isn't far (one stop away). Plus, for people living in the East and South of the city, this is a great location to arrive at from out of town as the travel time by public transit will be quicker than from downtown. The West end people lose out, but with the new LRT on the way, this won't be a big issue anyway.

I think this ideal world of having every inter-city mode of transit arriving right smack downtown is over-rated.

Richard Eade
Mar 21, 2010, 3:25 AM
Following up on Dado's concept, move DND-HQ out to the old Nortel Palace and replace the towers with a BIG hotel connected to the New Conference Centre (and providing additional meeting room space). On the current Colonel By level of this new building would be the HS-rail/intercity-bus terminal. The rail line would run (covered) beside Nicholas and then be under a raised Colonel By, parallel to the new DOTT under Mann, until the DOTT rises. The HS-Rail line would remain low and cross under the transit line, the Rideau River, the Hurdman area, and Riverside.

eemy
Mar 21, 2010, 12:33 PM
Establishing a viable commuter rail system is a pretty good reason. I could be wrong, but I'm not aware of any commuter system in North America where the trains stop 3km from downtown and everyone has to hop on a bus to get where they are going.

I really don't think it would be all that effective in that role though, because Union Station isn't central downtown, and therefore most people would likely have to take transit anyway. Given the choice, I think the only truly effective option for commuter rail in Ottawa would be to have it run through a tunnel across downtown. Obviously this would be prohibitively expensive though, so the status quo is probably best for now.

Mille Sabords
Mar 21, 2010, 2:29 PM
What's the real-life inter-modal necessity between Via and Voyageur today? Why do the two need to be in the same building? Is there something larger in the works here?

Because, quite frankly, the way I see it, it's the VIA station that should relocate. These terminals must offer a 22-year-old student the possibility of getting off the bus on foot and immediately be able to walk anywhere. Shunting a terminal to the middle of nowhere, as the VIA station is now, for the sake of having a hub, is missing the point. How are those stations used and by whom?

Unless and until there is an urban fabric reaching the current VIA station, I think the bus terminal is fine where it is. It can stand to be intensified to accommodate more buses, but its location is fine.

jcollins
Mar 21, 2010, 3:15 PM
But how would you get trains into the core, that would be an expensive endeavor.

Mille Sabords
Mar 21, 2010, 5:49 PM
But how would you get trains into the core, that would be an expensive endeavor.

The way it should've been done in 1966, instead of moving the station out to nowhere-land: tunnel under Colonel By to Union.

Actually, until the construction of the Desmarais Building by uOttawa, I thought that block would've beebn a perfect one for an intercity hub. It's gone now, at least half of it is.

jcollins
Mar 21, 2010, 6:26 PM
That actually would have been a really good location come to think of it.

Kitchissippi
Mar 21, 2010, 6:37 PM
Integrating VIA and Greyhound stations would be beneficial to both companies and give passengers instant choice in one location. This would give people an option of taking VIA's limited but more comfortable intercity routes and transferring to Greyhound's more frequent and/or regional destinations.

jcollins
Mar 21, 2010, 7:21 PM
They should definitely integrate at this site, it's beneficial in the short term, and long term it may prove that a bigger integrated hub is needed, maybe at a different location.

As it stands now, does the current train station have enough room to accommodate everything necessary to house Greyhound.

AuxTown
Mar 22, 2010, 1:41 AM
I think integrating is the way to go at this point as well. I always get off the 417 at Kent and when a bus has just arrived there is 5-10 people waiting for the bus accross the street to take them downtown. It's far enough away from the core that anyone with luggage will be taking a cab or bus anyway so might as well have the station in a place with higher transit frequencies.

lrt's friend
Mar 22, 2010, 12:34 PM
Sorry for not going with the flow, but I support Diane Holmes position. We should wait until LRT is in place before we do this. Once LRT construction begins, there will likely only be one bus route stopping at the Via Station, which will be no better than the current Greyhound Station on Catherine Street. During the duration of construction, all the other bus routes will be bypassing the station on the Queensway.

eternallyme
Mar 22, 2010, 2:33 PM
Following up on Dado's concept, move DND-HQ out to the old Nortel Palace and replace the towers with a BIG hotel connected to the New Conference Centre (and providing additional meeting room space). On the current Colonel By level of this new building would be the HS-rail/intercity-bus terminal. The rail line would run (covered) beside Nicholas and then be under a raised Colonel By, parallel to the new DOTT under Mann, until the DOTT rises. The HS-Rail line would remain low and cross under the transit line, the Rideau River, the Hurdman area, and Riverside.

I really like that idea! DND does not belong in a downtown tower in a crowded area, if for security reasons in the post-9/11 age for anything else. The hub of the transit network definitely belongs downtown.

IntoTheCore
Mar 22, 2010, 4:01 PM
Some of the 'arguments' brought up in this article are just so, so mind-boggling (even the ones from the Orleans residents... let's try to see the big picture!).

---

Moving station would ‘gut' downtown: Neighbour
By JUSTIN SADLER, Ottawa Sun
Last Updated: March 22, 2010 6:44am
http://www.ottawasun.com/news/ottawa/2010/03/21/13310036.html

The mayor’s pitch to move regional bus services from the Catherine St. terminal to the Via Rail station off Riverside Dr. is raising the ire of many who use the service or benefit from it indirectly.

“Really, the train and the bus station should be downtown like in most cities,” said Tyler Carlson, returning home from Montreal Sunday. He said many of the people who use the bus are urban residents who don’t have cars.

“So it doesn’t really make sense to move it to the suburbs.”

Somerset Coun. Diane Holmes also said it would be a bad idea right now. The bus station is located in her ward.

“I really think what we should be doing in this city is getting our transportation better connected. I would be happy to see it move when we get the light rail going into the train station, but not before that happens.” she said.

Mayor Larry O’Brien sent a letter to Via Rail president Marc Laliberte last week with the idea of moving bus services to the train station.

O’Brien said, “it’s good to have a transportation hub,” and said Greyhound has indicated it would be interested in a move to the train station.

One employee at the bus station, who asked not to be named, described general ambivalence toward the proposal among his coworkers.

“The idea isn’t original. It’s been put out there by other politicians before,” he said, adding he thinks O’Brien is using the idea to build an election platform.

Of those in favour of the move, most, like Maryanne Birnie and Louise Morin who live in Orleans, said they would benefit because it was closer to their homes.

“It’s a good idea for me,” Morin said. “Getting back to Orleans, it’s three buses. It’s too much.”

But Demir Demiri, who operates the Voyageur’s Guest House right behind the bus station, said much of his business is from passersby who spot his bed and breakfast when they get off the bus.

“It’s going to hurt me. It’s busy in the summer, very, very busy,” he said.

Blue Line cab driver, Adel Elsabbagh, is also opposed to the proposal. He said the move would create too much congestion on Hwy. 417 and at the train station.

Even some neighbouring residents said it would be unfortunate, especially after losing downtown train service in 1966.

“It’s a shame that we missed that dynamic that comes with a downtown train station,” said Paco Francoli, who lives a block away from the bus terminal.

“I see it as another attempt to gut the downtown core of the businesses and services you’d find in a city. The Via station is out in the middle of nowhere. Some things belong downtown for practical purposes.”

phil235
Mar 22, 2010, 4:34 PM
I really don't think it would be all that effective in that role though, because Union Station isn't central downtown, and therefore most people would likely have to take transit anyway. Given the choice, I think the only truly effective option for commuter rail in Ottawa would be to have it run through a tunnel across downtown. Obviously this would be prohibitively expensive though, so the status quo is probably best for now.

If I'm not mistaken, the advisory panel created by Larry O'Brien recommended exactly what you are suggesting. Their thinking was that the DOTT should be designed to accommodate both LRT and heavy rail so it could be used by commuter trains as well. Not sure that recommendation got much serious consideration.

Dado
Mar 22, 2010, 7:15 PM
Sorry for not going with the flow, but I support Diane Holmes position. We should wait until LRT is in place before we do this. Once LRT construction begins, there will likely only be one bus route stopping at the Via Station, which will be no better than the current Greyhound Station on Catherine Street. During the duration of construction, all the other bus routes will be bypassing the station on the Queensway.

I agree. Ideally we'd get rid of DNDHQ, but short of that waiting for LRT to reach the VIA station is the best bet. Not that I'm worried that something might happen before then, anyway...

jcollins
Mar 23, 2010, 2:26 AM
Would there need to be much infrastructure added or money invested to join the two into a hub at this point? It seems like it'd be a fairly small investment short term.

waterloowarrior
Mar 23, 2010, 4:28 AM
Bus-station shift gets mixed reviews
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/business/station+shift+gets+mixed+reviews/2713837/story.html
Relocation to VIA terminal pitched by O’Brien

BY GLEN MCGREGOR, THE OTTAWA CITIZENMARCH 23, 2010 12:02 AM


OTTAWA — Mayor Larry O’Brien’s proposal to move the Ottawa bus station to the VIA Rail terminal in the east end of the city could leave a Vancouver property developer holding a valuable slice of downtown real estate.

The mayor last week wrote to VIA president and CEO Marc Laliberté to ask him to consider allowing Greyhound Canada to relocate its intercity bus service to the train station on Tremblay Road.

O’Brien said a transportation hub combining train, buses and the city’s proposed light-rail transit would be good for all parties and would benefit Ottawa residents and visitors.

Greyhound Canada, which leases space at the bus station, says it has been working with O’Brien on the plan and likes the possibility of an “inter-modal facility” that lets passengers travel by train and bus on the same trip.

“It’s certainly something we are on board with and would strongly support,” spokeswoman Maureen Richmond said from Greyhound’s office in Cincinnati, Ohio.

However, other area politicians are uncertain about taking the station out of the downtown core when the city’s transportation plan is still a work in progress and question what would become of the current bus station, which covers a city block.

Until 2007, the Catherine Street property was held through a numbered company controlled by CSL Equity, the investment arm of the international shipping empire owned by former prime minister Paul Martin’s family.

Martin’s company purchased Voyageur Colonial Bus Lines and the Ottawa station in 1981, but unloaded the bus service in the mid-1990s as his federal political career ascended. CSL Equity, however, retained ownership of the terminal and leased it out.

In 2007, CSL’s numbered company sold the Ottawa property for $8.5 million to Crerar Silverside Corporation, a company run by Vancouver developer Stewart Robertson, according to land transfer records. At the same time, Crerar registered a $7.3-million loan from a British-based investment firm, Middlemarch Partners Limited. Another $400,000 was loaned through B.C.’s Canadian Western Trust Company.

The exact value of the property today is unknown. However, with residential property values continuing to climb, it could be worth more as a real-estate development than as a bus station.

Crerar does not appear to have any role in running the station. It is staffed and managed by Station Centrale, a Quebec firm that also runs Montreal’s bus terminal. A spokesman for that company said it had had no contact with O’Brien to discuss a plan to relocate.

Ottawa mayoralty candidate Jim Watson said the plan to move the station didn’t make a lot of sense, particularly as the city was yet to lay a single kilometre of track for its light-rail project. “Most Canadian cities have the bus depot downtown, not the suburbs. Before you start musing about moving the bus depot, you have to get your own act together with respect to the transportation plan.”

Watson likened the plan to the controversial decision to move Ottawa’s train station to the east end location from downtown in the 1960s.

Ottawa Centre MP Paul Dewar said he’d like to hear more about the rationale for the plan before the bus station was moved out of his riding.

If it is relocated, however, Dewar says the city should consider redeveloping the Catherine Street site as mixed housing. “A solid stock of affordable housing, where you have rent geared to income housing, along with private housing … that’s what we need all over the city.”

In response to O’Brien’s letter, a VIA spokesman said the corporation welcomed any initiatives that could improve service. He said the twinning of bus and rail in inter-modal facilities had worked well in Vancouver and Quebec City.

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

Kitchissippi
Mar 23, 2010, 4:31 AM
Would there need to be much infrastructure added or money invested to join the two into a hub at this point? It seems like it'd be a fairly small investment short term.

Depends on how well they want to do it. They could simply convert the frontmost platforms into bus bays. however, the platforms are open to the outdoors, which is why they queue train passengers inside the station. Bus riders are used to queuing right at the gate, so they would probably have to enclose those platforms to make them climate controlled.

It seems that they are only using half of the original tracks — there are abandoned platforms behind where new bus bays could be built with a heated terminal building connected by extending the tunnel. That spiral ramp down to it is so cool

http://dcnonl.com/images/archives/2007/05/09/550.jpg

c_speed3108
Mar 23, 2010, 12:46 PM
What's the real-life inter-modal necessity between Via and Voyageur today? Why do the two need to be in the same building? Is there something larger in the works here?

.


Thinking a bit about this. My thoughts are: I don't know but perhaps.

There has long been plans/dreams of high speed rail on the Quebec-Windsor corridor.

One of the problems with building this high speed rail is that it would no longer be feasible to have trains stopping in every little town along the way. Consequently you would either need to continue running the old fashioned slow trains in parallel (would there even be enough business?) or come up with something else. Having both services in the same building would allow transfers from the high speed trains to buses to complete the last lag of the journey to small communities.

ajldub
Mar 23, 2010, 3:01 PM
I can see the association. Let's say you want to take the train to, I don't know, Quebec City, but you live in, say, Perth. If it's a short bus ride to the train station it saves you trekking across Ottawa en route.

I like this plan because the next 10-20 years will(hopefully) see the rolling out of a serious high speed rail network on this continent. I was really hoping Obama would take it on, but it looks for the time being he's focusing on health care. When it does come online, we will need a place to have a station, and as much as I would like to see trains come downtown I think the price of high speed rail in the core would be prohibitive. So a transit hub out by the old station makes sense to me. A couple of light rail spurs to the airport and downtown and you've actually got a nice little system.

Acajack
Mar 23, 2010, 3:33 PM
Although I really do like the idea of a transportation hub in downtown Ottawa at the old Union Station, just for fun I checked out how far from the city centres the two stations on the Eurostar line are.

Gare du Nord is about 5 km from central Paris (Champs-Élysées/Arc de Triomphe/Eiffel Tower)

Waterloo Station is roughly 2 to 4 km from most points in central London (closer to Parliament at Westminster, and a bit further from the "City").

For the sake of comparison, the Ottawa VIA station on Tremblay is about 5 km from Parliament Hill.

Dado
Mar 23, 2010, 5:00 PM
Would there need to be much infrastructure added or money invested to join the two into a hub at this point? It seems like it'd be a fairly small investment short term.

The time to do it is when they rebuild the front semi-circle for LRT. The marginal cost at that point in time won't be too much since the place will be dug up and reconfigured anyway.


A number of municipalities to the east are organizing commuter bus services and there is some talk of commuter rail, but rail would only be at peak periods whereas it is conceivable that bus services might be run at other periods as well. From their point of view, having the commuter rail and bus services interface with the rapid transit system at the same location makes a lot of sense. Similarly, people can make journeys involving VIA in one direction and buses in the other.

I'd prefer to see all this take place downtown, but the VIA station is the next best alternative - and even if we eventually get something like this downtown it's unlikely that the current location would close (it has and likely always will have more parking, for example) since it is better located for a lot of non-business & non-school travel.

Kitchissippi
Mar 23, 2010, 6:07 PM
I don't see intercity trains entering downtown Otawa. Ever. There just isn't room for it. There is more to a station than just the station building, there are train yards, areas for baggage and cargo handling, not to mention the parking requirements and the traffic of people dropping off and picking up passengers. As infrequent as the arrivals are in VIA station, it does cause momentary traffic jam in the vicinity.

Also, for high speed rail to be viable in North America, it needs to compete and be well integrated with airports. The way I see it a first phase could start in Montreal Central Station (YMY), stop in Dorval airport (YUL), head to Ottawa train station (XDS) and terminate in Ottawa Airport (YOW). Taking it into downtown Ottawa would dead-end it there, unless there was a massive expenditure to take it across in another tunnel downtown, a huge cost for something that would be used only a few times a day.

There are a lot of grim areas surrounding the Montreal and Toronto stations (or any station in Europe for that matter) that are pretty hard to disguise. There just is no way parts of downtown Ottawa would be ripped up for it.

gjhall
Mar 23, 2010, 6:27 PM
Although I really do like the idea of a transportation hub in downtown Ottawa at the old Union Station, just for fun I checked out how far from the city centres the two stations on the Eurostar line are.

Gare du Nord is about 5 km from central Paris (Champs-Élysées/Arc de Triomphe/Eiffel Tower)

Waterloo Station is roughly 2 to 4 km from most points in central London (closer to Parliament at Westminster, and a bit further from the "City").

For the sake of comparison, the Ottawa VIA station on Tremblay is about 5 km from Parliament Hill.

Waterloo isn't the Eurostar terminal anymore, it's St Pancras, which is on Euston Road, which is pretty darn central. I'm not sure what you used as your measuring point for Central London, as there isn't a natural central point as in Ottawa (Parliament).

Acajack
Mar 23, 2010, 7:10 PM
Waterloo isn't the Eurostar terminal anymore, it's St Pancras, which is on Euston Road, which is pretty darn central. I'm not sure what you used as your measuring point for Central London, as there isn't a natural central point as in Ottawa (Parliament).

Thank you for pointing that out. It shows I haven't been in London for a few years.

I used Westminster and the "City" business district as central points for London. I realize that London is a huge city and that there is not necessarily a central focal point there.

My main objective was to demonstrate that 5 km from many central points of interest (like the current VIA station in Ottawa is) is not necessarily that big a deal.

Of course, there are huge differences in urban form between Tremblay Rd. in Ottawa and the areas around the Gare du Nord and St. Pancras.

All in all, the VIA station on Tremblay is not a bad location. Ideally, Union Station downtown might be the best location for travellers but others have made good arguments as to why it might not be practical: cost of tunnelling, a potentially huge "railway scar" if a tunnel cannot be built, suitability for link-up with HSR, etc.

c_speed3108
Mar 23, 2010, 8:03 PM
If my understanding of the high speed rail dream is correct, Ottawa would be a line station not a terminal point.

This would greatly complicate having the station downtown since you need not only a way in, but also a way out... (twice the cost and trouble)

gjhall
Mar 23, 2010, 8:40 PM
If my understanding of the high speed rail dream is correct, Ottawa would be a line station not a terminal point.

This would greatly complicate having the station downtown since you need not only a way in, but also a way out... (twice the cost and trouble)

The UK's new HSR plan has Birmingham as a shoot of the line to a downtown terminal point in addition to a stop "Birmingham Interchange" on the main line.

If you look at the existing railtrack there is essentially a one track that comes in from Toronto and points west past Hurdman and to the current station and it keeps going to Montreal and points east.

Assuming a track, tunneled or not, went to Union Station via Colonel By Drive, it would only deviate from the line for 2 km, then could reverse back to the main line. A pretty minimal time delay considering the train has to stop anyway.

Let's not forget that an investment in HSR will not mean the current LOW rate of service, it will be a fundamental shift in transport mode, with a fairly constant flow of trains throughout the day, you know, like in other developed countries...

Dado
Mar 23, 2010, 10:30 PM
I don't see intercity trains entering downtown Otawa. Ever. There just isn't room for it. There is more to a station than just the station building, there are train yards, areas for baggage and cargo handling, not to mention the parking requirements and the traffic of people dropping off and picking up passengers. As infrequent as the arrivals are in VIA station, it does cause momentary traffic jam in the vicinity.

The DNDHQ site looks to be comparable in size to that of Montreal's Gare Centrale and we've got an equivalent to Place Bonaventure as well in the Rideau Centre.

The train yards are a relatively easy problem to deal with with this site. Nicholas Street is pretty much built on fill since that area used to be a train yard at an elevation not much higher than the canal. Since I think Nicholas should be disappeared into a tunnel anyway, the entire corridor would see the fill removed and replaced with tracks and a lowered Nicholas. This would then be covered back over and landscaped with Colonel By lifted on top of that structure, giving a nice edge to the UoO campus. Of course this would impact the current preferred route of LRT, which I think should go under King Edward.

I had started a thread awhile back on sorting out transportation in the Nicholas-King Edward corridor to discuss these sort of issues.


Also, for high speed rail to be viable in North America, it needs to compete and be well integrated with airports. The way I see it a first phase could start in Montreal Central Station (YMY), stop in Dorval airport (YUL), head to Ottawa train station (XDS) and terminate in Ottawa Airport (YOW). Taking it into downtown Ottawa would dead-end it there, unless there was a massive expenditure to take it across in another tunnel downtown, a huge cost for something that would be used only a few times a day.

HSR Trains are double-ended, so a terminal-style station isn't a big deal so long as the train stops for long enough (which it would pretty much have to). There's also not a lot of advantage in serving Ottawa's airport unless you're going to be able to get from it into downtown Ottawa by rail, which would be a useful side benefit of re-establishing a rail station downtown.

Of course serving the airport with HSR brings up another issue: how to get a line from the airport and enroute to Toronto and what route that will take.


There are a lot of grim areas surrounding the Montreal and Toronto stations (or any station in Europe for that matter) that are pretty hard to disguise. There just is no way parts of downtown Ottawa would be ripped up for it.

As above, burying it is probably the way to go.

eternallyme
Mar 23, 2010, 10:36 PM
The UK's new HSR plan has Birmingham as a shoot of the line to a downtown terminal point in addition to a stop "Birmingham Interchange" on the main line.

If you look at the existing railtrack there is essentially a one track that comes in from Toronto and points west past Hurdman and to the current station and it keeps going to Montreal and points east.

Assuming a track, tunneled or not, went to Union Station via Colonel By Drive, it would only deviate from the line for 2 km, then could reverse back to the main line. A pretty minimal time delay considering the train has to stop anyway.

Let's not forget that an investment in HSR will not mean the current LOW rate of service, it will be a fundamental shift in transport mode, with a fairly constant flow of trains throughout the day, you know, like in other developed countries...

Another thing the line would have to have suitability for is commuter rail from the outlying communities, which would be highly advantageous to have its central station close to most of the employment areas.

2 tracks in the station should be designed for a potential continuation to Gatineau via a redesigned Alexandra Bridge (underneath Majors Hill Park before returning to the surface) for a connection to the QGRY corridor. That would require the closure of that bridge to vehicles (it is the lightest-used of the bridges anyway). That would enable commuter rail from the Quebec side.

Ottawan
Mar 23, 2010, 10:40 PM
Since we're discussing how we'd do HSR through Ottawa, here's my route:

It would head North out of Montreal, connect to Mirabel airport (a great chance to resurrect that next-to-dead massive complex), take the Quebec route to Ottawa (shadowing future highway 50). It would cross from Gatineau into Ottawa on the Prince of Wales bridge (or a new parallel bridge), and the terminal would be at Bayview - a location much closer to downtown in an area with much greater development potential than at the existing train station, and one that would be at the hub of every main LRT route. The line would then follow the current O-Train line (the trench may need widening, and a new tunnel would be required to take it under Carleton University) and would have it's next stop at the Macdonal-Cartier Airport. It would then be able to use the Greenbelt as it's corridor to exit Ottawa altogether.

If we are concerned with intermodality, the bus terminal could also be relocated to Bayview, although this would require buses to exit the Queensway at Parkdale, which is probably further than bus operators would like.

I'm not sure if this last bit is technologically possible, but if the electric rail and heavier rail could run on the same track, then communter rail could enter Ottawa via the main southern East-West line (the one that connects to the Walkley Yards), go up the O-Train (and ultimately electric-heavy rail hybrid) line to Bayview as well.

White Pine
Mar 23, 2010, 11:16 PM
I'm not sure I'd count the current station as Downtown. It's still far from everything. The train station seems easier to get to and is on the Transitway, from my limited Ottawa experience anyway

Yroc
Mar 24, 2010, 6:27 AM
Have to agree.... if your going to random place X in Ottawa being dropped on the main transit line is much better than being left at the current bus station. For picking up folks by car, both locations work equally well as they both have good access to the 417.

There are plans to build a walking bridge over the 417 near the ball stadium. This (if ever built) will provide access to the new hotel that was just built. It would be nice to see a south link from the train station to the trainyards as well. Right now, high fences block access. A simple walking path would do.

Kitchissippi
Mar 24, 2010, 2:56 PM
Since we're discussing how we'd do HSR through Ottawa, here's my route:

It would head North out of Montreal, connect to Mirabel airport (a great chance to resurrect that next-to-dead massive complex), take the Quebec route to Ottawa (shadowing future highway 50). It would cross from Gatineau into Ottawa on the Prince of Wales bridge (or a new parallel bridge), and the terminal would be at Bayview - a location much closer to downtown in an area with much greater development potential than at the existing train station, and one that would be at the hub of every main LRT route. The line would then follow the current O-Train line (the trench may need widening, and a new tunnel would be required to take it under Carleton University) and would have it's next stop at the Macdonal-Cartier Airport. It would then be able to use the Greenbelt as it's corridor to exit Ottawa altogether.

That's way too hilly a route for HSR. If you've been north of Montebello lately where they are building a section of the 50, they are literally moving entire mountainsides for it, and there is still a bit of climbing and turning. The plan for HSR has always been going through Prescott-Russell where it is much flatter (what is now the Prescott-Russell Trail was originally purchased for HSR). A bridge would have probably been built somewhere between Hawkesbury and Lachute. Also, lets face it, Mirabel is dead, a huge waste of money, a decision made when planes were smaller, less efficient and much noisier. A combined Trudeau/Macdonald-Cartier/Pearson airports connected by HSR could more than handle the future demand for air travel in the future, especially with much of corridor traffic offloaded to HSR.

Uhuniau
Apr 7, 2010, 12:13 AM
There are lots of complications to this but I think we all know that this would be the best end result. We need to dream bigger in this city and demand the kind of major funds other large cities get out of provincial and federal governments.

Yes, but the prerequisite to that would be for Ottawa to be part of a province, and buggered if I can figure out which province Ottawa is part of.

Uhuniau
Apr 7, 2010, 12:17 AM
Gare du Nord is about 5 km from central Paris (Champs-Élysées/Arc de Triomphe/Eiffel Tower)

Waterloo Station is roughly 2 to 4 km from most points in central London (closer to Parliament at Westminster, and a bit further from the "City").

For the sake of comparison, the Ottawa VIA station on Tremblay is about 5 km from Parliament Hill.

And for the sake of further comparison, the Ottawa VIA station is surrounded by km of bleak nothingness in all directions.

Le Gare du Nord? Waterloo?

Mille Sabords
Apr 7, 2010, 2:22 AM
I don't see intercity trains entering downtown Otawa. Ever. There just isn't room for it. There is more to a station than just the station building, there are train yards, areas for baggage and cargo handling, not to mention the parking requirements and the traffic of people dropping off and picking up passengers. As infrequent as the arrivals are in VIA station, it does cause momentary traffic jam in the vicinity.

There are a lot of grim areas surrounding the Montreal and Toronto stations (or any station in Europe for that matter) that are pretty hard to disguise. There just is no way parts of downtown Ottawa would be ripped up for it.

If a site along DOTT can be found that can accommodate a terminal with underground rail leading to it, then yards can be a short distance away (as in, Tremblay rd). As for parking, that was the 1965 excuse for ripping the station out of the heart of Ottawa. How much parking do you figure there is at Union Station or Gare Bonaventure? Montreal has a limited amount of structured parking, but basically, the métro feeds the station. So it would be with DOTT.

Stations don't mean grim areas necessarily. The point of a passenger rail terminal is to drop off and pick up rail passengers. Marshalling yards can, and should be, elsewhere.

umbria27
Apr 8, 2010, 3:43 PM
Following up on Dado's concept, move DND-HQ out to the old Nortel Palace and replace the towers with a BIG hotel connected to the New Conference Centre (and providing additional meeting room space).

This is a bit of a side discussion, but I don't agree with moving DND-HQ out of the centre. Moving jobs to industrial parks doesn't help the city.
I agree that the current location and design of DND-HQ is problematic, because there's a whole triangle between the Rideau centre and the University of Ottawa which is pedestrian free. It would be a fantastic place for expanded conference and trade show facilities.
DND, like other federal offices should remain downtown somewhere. We want people working and living in the the centre. I don't buy the security argument for moving it to the greenbelt. You wouldn't move Parliament to the greenbelt.

c_speed3108
Apr 8, 2010, 3:48 PM
From cbc...

Ottawa Via Rail lands to be developed
Last Updated: Thursday, April 8, 2010 | 9:57 AM ET

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2010/04/08/ottawa-via-canderel.html#ixzz0kWYvDmzE


Shops, homes and offices could soon surround Ottawa's passenger train station.

Via Rail has selected Canderel Property Management as a partner to help it develop about 3.4 hectares of its 9.3-hectare property on Tremblay Road, east of downtown Ottawa, said Via Rail spokesman Malcolm Andrew.

"There is, we think, a great deal of potential that is untapped," he said.

Via will retain ownership of the property, but the "field is wide open" to different types of development, which could include stores, offices and housing, Andrew said. The result is expected to provide rental income for Via and also benefit customers, he added.

"There are not a lot of services in and around the station proper as it sits today."
Bus terminal possible

Andrews confirmed Ottawa Mayor Larry O'Brien had also written to Via to suggest moving the city's intercity bus terminal to the train station and that Greyhound had made similar proposals twice over the past decade.

"This is certainly something that the developer will want to have a look at and see whether it might fit into a larger development proposal."

He said it's a coincidence that the letter arrived at a time when Via is exploring development of its lands.

Canderel is currently studying the options and will meet with Via to discuss its findings. The company's previous development projects include the Bell Campus in Montreal and the Residences of College Park in Toronto.

Via has already done significant development around some of its other stations, including Winnipeg and Vancouver. This past January, it issued a request for letters of interest to develop the Ottawa station.

Meanwhile, the owner of the downtown bus terminal said he wants to keep that station where it is on Catherine Street.

"I bought it as an income property," said Stewart Robertson, who is based in Vancouver. "I didn't buy it to go turn it into a shopping centre or anything else."

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2010/04/08/ottawa-via-canderel.html#ixzz0kWYsLYOQ

Uhuniau
Apr 8, 2010, 3:48 PM
This is a bit of a side discussion, but I don't agree with moving DND-HQ out of the centre. Moving jobs to industrial parks doesn't help the city.
I agree that the current location and design of DND-HQ is problematic, because there's a whole triangle between the Rideau centre and the University of Ottawa which is pedestrian free. It would be a fantastic place for expanded conference and trade show facilities.
DND, like other federal offices should remain downtown somewhere. We want people working and living in the the centre. I don't buy the security argument for moving it to the greenbelt. You wouldn't move Parliament to the greenbelt.

I can see moving DND somewhere slightly more out of the way, now that they have retreated into their bunker mentality, but any new location should be on a major transit route.

See the RCMP move for an example how NOT to do things.

Edited to add: And it would be nice to see the future-former DND building occupied by tenants who'd undo the ugliness on the bridge, and reopen the long-closed pedestrian link from Laurier to Mackenzie King.

Speaking of the god-awful former Nortel "campus", is there any way — imagine for a second the NCC with its Greenbelt fetish ceases to exist — that a future real transit link from Bayshore to Kanata could incorporate the Campus Formerly Known As Nortel?

Dado
Apr 8, 2010, 4:46 PM
I can see moving DND somewhere slightly more out of the way, now that they have retreated into their bunker mentality, but any new location should be on a major transit route.

See the RCMP move for an example how NOT to do things.

Edited to add: And it would be nice to see the future-former DND building occupied by tenants who'd undo the ugliness on the bridge, and reopen the long-closed pedestrian link from Laurier to Mackenzie King.

I say knock the entire thing down and replace it with a new downtown rail and coach terminal.


Speaking of the god-awful former Nortel "campus", is there any way — imagine for a second the NCC with its Greenbelt fetish ceases to exist — that a future real transit link from Bayshore to Kanata could incorporate the Campus Formerly Known As Nortel?

Two general options:

(1) Take a routing west out of Bayshore, north up the excessively-wide Holly Acres to Andrew Haydon Park (take the train to the park named after Andy Haydon - oh, the sweet irony!), onto Carling and then once it's cleared Ullswater Drive take it into the main entrance of the campus on Moodie right past the front doors of the main building. From there I imagine one would want to take it to Carling, intercepting Carling somewhere around Rifle Rd so a station can be provided at the government Communications research facility (and with the side benefit of being able to step off the train and start pelting golf balls at the driving range). After that, it would under the Beachburg Sub and follow Carling until intercepting the Renfrew Sub following that and then up March Rd. I'd keep the LRT on the south side of Carling the entire way from Holly Acres to March to avoid too much messing around at intersections and crossing Carling, but there are a lot of houses with driveways on Carling opposite the sailing club that would be affected, so going down a median might be required.

(2) Follow the alignment of the former Renfrew Sub west from Bayshore right past the Lakeview Park/Crystal Bay community (NIMBY alert), then turn northwest across Moodie and skirt the southwestern fringes of the campus. From there you basically follow the previous route to Kanata.

gjhall
Apr 8, 2010, 6:56 PM
I can see moving DND somewhere slightly more out of the way, now that they have retreated into their bunker mentality, but any new location should be on a major transit route.

See the RCMP move for an example how NOT to do things.

Edited to add: And it would be nice to see the future-former DND building occupied by tenants who'd undo the ugliness on the bridge, and reopen the long-closed pedestrian link from Laurier to Mackenzie King.

Speaking of the god-awful former Nortel "campus", is there any way — imagine for a second the NCC with its Greenbelt fetish ceases to exist — that a future real transit link from Bayshore to Kanata could incorporate the Campus Formerly Known As Nortel?

Not that this would be easy/practical, but magically swapping the train station and DND's location would probably be a pretty solid solution. :)

Dado
Apr 8, 2010, 7:57 PM
Not that this would be easy/practical, but magically swapping the train station and DND's location would probably be a pretty solid solution. :)

Not too different but put DND at Hurdman north of the LRT station. As Richard Eade has pointed out elsewhere, the rail line is going to be up on an embankment that will basically turn the entire area to the north into a fortress ("Fort Hurdman"). The site would be secured on the east, south and west by the rail line and its embankment, the northeast by the Queensway and to the north by the river. One would be hard-pressed to find another site as readily secured as this one elsewhere in the city - only the various islands in the rivers - and all this at a location from which it is fairly easy to go downtown, to the airport (the SE Transitway) or east/west on the Queensway.

gjhall
Apr 8, 2010, 10:35 PM
Not too different but put DND at Hurdman north of the LRT station. As Richard Eade has pointed out elsewhere, the rail line is going to be up on an embankment that will basically turn the entire area to the north into a fortress ("Fort Hurdman"). The site would be secured on the east, south and west by the rail line and its embankment, the northeast by the Queensway and to the north by the river. One would be hard-pressed to find another site as readily secured as this one elsewhere in the city - only the various islands in the rivers - and all this at a location from which it is fairly easy to go downtown, to the airport (the SE Transitway) or east/west on the Queensway.

I like it.

Ottawan
Apr 9, 2010, 2:02 AM
:previous:

I second that.

Acajack
Apr 9, 2010, 2:22 AM
And for the sake of further comparison, the Ottawa VIA station is surrounded by km of bleak nothingness in all directions.

Le Gare du Nord? Waterloo?

Agree with what you say about Ottawa Station, but my point was only about distance to the centre of a city rather than the attractiveness of a station's surroundings. The area around Gare du Nord may be urban and dense but if you've ever been there it's not exactly the Champs-Élysées let me tell you. Very few travellers hang around Gare du Nord after arriving in Paris there.

Uhuniau
Apr 9, 2010, 4:11 AM
Agree with what you say about Ottawa Station, but my point was only about distance to the centre of a city rather than the attractiveness of a station's surroundings. The area around Gare du Nord may be urban and dense but if you've ever been there it's not exactly the Champs-Élysées let me tell you. Very few travellers hang around Gare du Nord after arriving in Paris there.
No, but even having bad urban fabric reduces the psychological and economic isolation of that station, as compared to Moonbase Greber, surrounded by crap and highways, where our trains come in, when they're not late or derailed.

waterloowarrior
Apr 13, 2010, 2:16 PM
new website from the owner of the current terminal
http://keepitdowntownottawa.com/

blackjagger
Apr 13, 2010, 2:35 PM
new website from the owner of the current terminal
http://keepitdowntownottawa.com/

I really like his "Modern" recladding of the Bus Station...:sly: I hate that this owner is trying to be "of the people" by keeping the bus station where it is when the truth is he bought a property that he knew was going to need major renewal and has been trying to put it off as long as possible.

Cheers,
Josh

c_speed3108
Apr 13, 2010, 3:33 PM
I really like his "Modern" recladding of the Bus Station...:sly: I hate that this owner is trying to be "of the people" by keeping the bus station where it is when the truth is he bought a property that he knew was going to need major renewal and has been trying to put it off as long as possible.

Cheers,
Josh


This is a very interesting quote from the website:

"It seems that the owner of the bus terminal was in the midst of negotiating a new long term 20-year deal with Greyhound when the company suddenly broke off communications."

Ottawan
Apr 13, 2010, 3:38 PM
I really like his "Modern" recladding of the Bus Station...:sly: I hate that this owner is trying to be "of the people" by keeping the bus station where it is when the truth is he bought a property that he knew was going to need major renewal and has been trying to put it off as long as possible.

Cheers,
Josh

I was about to comment on the same thing. I laughed when I read the following quote, which was beside his renders:

The renderings pictured in this post, which were completed last year, illustrate how the current Catherine Street station would be improved to reflect a more modern look and feel.

Replacing ugly brown brick with some sort of ugly blue siding is not something to be proud of.

Greyhound must be paying great rent for the owner of the property to be trying so hard to keep them, rather than selling the land for redevelopment at what I would assume would be a decent profit.

Edit: Here's the render. Beautiful, ain't it?

http://keepitdowntownottawa.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/render1-500.jpg?w=700

c_speed3108
Dec 17, 2010, 12:59 PM
Seems the airport too wants a crack at hosting a bus/train terminal...

Runway success

Modest leader takes Ottawa's airport from a liability to Company of the Year

By Mark Sutcliffe, Ottawa Citizen December 17, 2010 7:25 AM


Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/business/Runway+success/3991009/story.html#ixzz18NDFa6O5

Not so long ago, it would have been impossible to think of the Ottawa airport as a business. Now, it's Ottawa's Company of the Year. When the Ottawa International Airport Authority was honoured by the Ottawa Chamber of Commerce at last month's Business Achievement Awards, it marked the complete transformation of the facility from a liability to an asset for the community.

A big part of the airport's success is the leadership of Paul Benoit, the president of the organization, who refused an individual nomination as business person of the year because he wanted the entire airport team to be recognized.

"The easiest person to replace is the orchestra leader," says Benoit. "This is recognition for what a whole bunch of people have done. This team is as good as or better than any airport in the country."

Since the opening of the new terminal in 2003, which catapulted Ottawa's airport from the dark ages into the modern era, Benoit and his team of 160 employees have delivered one successful capital project after another, almost always early and under budget.

"To do that once or twice, you can be lucky," says Benoit. "If you've been able to do it 10 or 12 times, you've got great people."

And for those people who insist the private sector can't deliver services as efficiently and effectively as government, consider this: the federal government used to operate all of Canada's airports at a cost, according to Benoit, of some $400 million per year. Now the government makes $300 million in rent from the Ottawa airport and its counterparts across the country.

And over the last 15 years, some $6 billion has been invested in capital improvements, without any level of government chipping in.

"This didn't cost taxpayers a dime," says Benoit, pointing to the terminal around him.

Benoit has led the airport since it was privatized by the federal government in 1997. He has two years left on his contract, after which he says it will be time for a change. He marked a major milestone this month when he took a week's holiday with a complete shutdown in communication with the office.

And for those people who insist the private sector can't deliver services as efficiently and effectively as government (hello, health care system), consider this: the federal government used to operate all of Canada's airports at a cost, according to Benoit, of some $400 million per year. Now the government makes $300 million in rent from the Ottawa airport and its counterparts across the country.

And over the last 15 years, some $6 billion has been invested in capital improvements, without any level of government chipping in.

"This didn't cost taxpayers a dime," says Benoit, pointing to the terminal around him.

Benoit has led the airport since it was privatized by the federal government in 1997. He has two years left on his contract, after which he says it will be time for a change. He marked a major milestone this month when he took a week's holiday with a complete shutdown in communication with the office.

"My BlackBerry was cut off," he says. "This was a major disconnect."

The next milestone for the airport is the completion of a huge expansion for the parking garage. Benoit says the authority is also looking at expanding the customs area, and is working with major airlines to add a few more direct flights from the city, including another European destination, the U.S. west coast and the Asian market.

And Benoit's team is already starting to brainstorm about how the airport property can move beyond just airplanes to become the major transportation hub for the city.

Benoit says one day, buses, trains, light rail and even high-speed intercity rail could all stop at the airport.

"We shouldn't be looking at different modes of transportation as competition," he says.

"We should be looking at each other as complementary. In a perfect world, you'd have everything in one place."

As one example, Benoit points to a family in Kingston taking an international flight from Ottawa. He says they could check in at the Kingston bus terminal, including having their bags tagged, then board a bus for Ottawa that stops at the airport en route.

"If you asked me, 'What do you want for Christmas, Paul?' " he says, "it would be to bring everybody together. We need a much stronger, unified voice for transportation in Ottawa.

"That's still a long way off," he cautions. "But the thoughts are there and we're starting to put them on paper."

For years, there have been hints at building a high-speed rail system between Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal. Given the enormous level of investment required, it seems unlikely to happen soon, but if it does, Benoit would want to see the terminal on the airport property.

"It's an opportunity, but it would also be a major threat," he says. "If it comes here, I'd definitely want to see it at the airport."

Beyond his team, Benoit credits the community and the local economy for the airport's growth.

"We've been very lucky because of the Ottawa market," he says. "It's a stable market and as a result we have the highest growth rate of any major airport in Canada. That's not us doing the job, it's the area."

Still, no matter how much credit he gives to his team and the community, it's hard to imagine Ottawa's airport being so successful without Benoit's guidance over the last 13 years.

And it's just as hard to imagine this orchestra one day without its current leader.
© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen


Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/business/Runway+success/3991009/story.html#ixzz18ND6SwQe

Kitchissippi
Dec 17, 2010, 3:24 PM
:previous: I was in Shanghai a couple of months ago and the Hongqiao Transport Hub in the west side of the city is absolutely amazing: Airport, High Speed Rail, Intercity Bus, Metro (5 lines), and future Maglev station all in one spot. I took the HSR to Beijing, and the experience was like a scene from a futuristic movie.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5208/5268879820_0f03ff3b2b_b.jpg

This is the HSR station portion of the complex, the box like structures along the sides are the gates with escalators leading to the tracks:
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5124/5268896176_0bb446fa1f_b.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5243/5268897008_40b1e19ed7_b.jpg

With our airport in the middle of the Greenbelt, it would be easy to run elevated HSR tracks through without too much impact. I think a YYZ-YOW-YUL is the most feasible route for HSR. Road access for buses could be done through a future E-W southern BRT route that runs from the 417 to the 416

lrt's friend
Dec 17, 2010, 4:47 PM
:previous: This demonstrates how North America is not positioning itself for the future economy

adam-machiavelli
Dec 17, 2010, 7:09 PM
This demonstrates how North America is not preparing for a low carbon society.

Dado
Dec 17, 2010, 9:41 PM
We are so far behind we haven't even done a pre-planning study (never mind a planning study and an environmental assessment) on where within the city of Ottawa HSR should go.

Assuming that HSR does go to the airport, where does it go from there? Into downtown Ottawa? If so, by what route? O-Train or the Rideau Canal or both (presumably through a[nother] tunnel)? If not, will it interchange with the transit system at places like Heron and Hurdman, or just at the main VIA station, or will it head east out of the airport on the most direct route to Montreal, relying instead on the airport's transit connections (whatever they may be) to get passengers elsewhere in the city?

In the other direction, where does it go? Will HSR go via Kingston or Peterborough to Toronto? Should it go through Kanata first? Should there be just one main station and no others, or is it worth having a few stations? Is the VIA line through Barrhaven suitable for HSR or will Barrhaven have to be avoided altogether? If we have to bypass it to the south, are we going to let Barrhaven and Manotick merge together?

Clearly, there are plenty of issues to consider. I don't have answers to most of them - these are just issues that a cursory examination brings up but their answers could impact one another and dramatically affect how HSR is incorporated into the urban fabric (such as it is) of Ottawa.


HSR has been talked about off-and-on for a few decades now - one might have thought that we would at least have put some thought into where within the city it might go so as to reserve corridors for it and plan for future stations. In the last election, O'Brien talked about studying a ring road but way more important is studying where HSR will go.

Jamaican-Phoenix
Dec 17, 2010, 10:00 PM
:previous: This demonstrates how North America is not positioning itself for the future economy

This demonstrates how North America is not preparing for a low carbon society.

This demonstrates that North America just sucks in general. It's like we're afraid to spend money.

kwoldtimer
Dec 18, 2010, 12:22 AM
This demonstrates that North America just sucks in general. It's like we're afraid to spend money.

More like we're broke, no? :(

adam-machiavelli
Dec 18, 2010, 12:52 AM
We're not broke...yet. Governments are afraid to accumulate more debt (but see no problem with individuals taking on extremely high levels of debt to cover their financially and ecologically unsustainable lifestyles).

Uhuniau
Dec 18, 2010, 5:56 AM
We don't have to worry about where to put HSR in Ottawa, because the risk of HSR anywhere in eastern Canada is already near zero, and Ottawa, being a clueless hick town, will get left out of any such project anyway, which will run across Canada from Montreal to Toronto.

Dundas
Dec 18, 2010, 10:53 AM
We are gas and diesel hungry, if it runs on electricity forget about it.

kwoldtimer
Dec 18, 2010, 12:15 PM
We're not broke...yet. Governments are afraid to accumulate more debt (but see no problem with individuals taking on extremely high levels of debt to cover their financially and ecologically unsustainable lifestyles).

Sorry, government understands very well that it is broke. Stay tuned and we can speak again in a year or so..... :(

Jamaican-Phoenix
Dec 18, 2010, 10:53 PM
More like we're broke, no? :(

How are we broke? We're one of a handful of nations that fared far better than the rest during the recession AND Canadian banks and companies are starting to buy up other banks and companies. Our governments just have no vision.

We don't have to worry about where to put HSR in Ottawa, because the risk of HSR anywhere in eastern Canada is already near zero, and Ottawa, being a clueless hick town, will get left out of any such project anyway, which will run across Canada from Montreal to Toronto.

I sincerely hope you're wrong, but with this town, you're probably right... :(

Kitchissippi
Dec 19, 2010, 4:41 AM
I think an airport-to-airport high speed rail line is very much feasible between Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto and the economics are even there for it to make money. There is also enough corporate wealth for the private sector do it on its own but the problem with our free capitalism sometimes is there are competing forces that are very territorial of their current investments. Investors would rather throw their money into a crowded competitive market (ie., setting up a new airline like Porter) than risk it on a potential game changer like HSR

China's socialized capitalism is working well for them at the moment, allowing them to channel vast amounts of money toward what they perceive is the greater common good, a bit like Canada was from the mid-50's to 70's, only more awesome in scale. I am not at all envious of China as they have a whole set of problems that we don't have, but it is admirable how much they are investing in public infrastructure. While we in the West are slagging them for environmental atrocities, they are actually actively doing something about it and are poised to leapfrog us in that aspect. If you want to witness urban development happening in a Haussmannesque scale, go visit any large Chinese city — they are laying down wide boulevards with subways underneath and bike lanes as wide as car lanes. If the air clears after they phase out their coal burning plants, Beijing and Shanghai can turn out to be choice places to live.

Getting slightly back to topic, the long distance bus stations in China are almost always next or close to the train stations. I noticed that even the rickety buses had smart card readers, the kind you just tap a card on. In large cities, even the taxis are an integral part of the transit system so they take payment from the same pre-loaded cards, allowing you to transfer between transportation modes with relative ease.

At the risk of derailing the thread again, here are some more transport-related images I took in China:

interior of a typical regional bus. Nothing spectacular, but it shows they’ve had automated stop announcements for a while both audio and visual display.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5246/5272488471_1f3544317b_b.jpg

interior of the high speed trains. I had a nice tidy first class bunk for the 1000+ km journey, ticket price, about $100.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5287/5273094562_b75b9803f1_b.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5124/5273095442_3cabaffef0_b.jpg

China is overtaking Europe in the length of high speed tracks. All over the countryside, I saw hundreds of kilometres of elevated track being constructed
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5050/5272483583_97b952f310_b.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5083/5273094030_8745020939_b.jpg

The first commercial maglev line in the world, connecting the international airport in the east of the city to downtown Shanghai, eventually to continue on to the domestic airport at Hongqiao which I mentioned in the previous post. Too bad I only had my cheap video camera on hand during the ride and it did not focus on the LED speed display clearly. It hit a top speed of over 430 kph, and covered the 30km distance in 8 minutes. The ride is smooth accompanied by a hum oozing with power. The 30km line was constructed (with cheap Chinese labour) for a surprising cost of US1.33 billion, less than our LRT project! I imagine a similar train could do Ottawa-Montreal in less than 30 minutes.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5005/5272487321_0c86b8b36b_b.jpg

1fbQ4dcQPEU

Dado
Dec 20, 2010, 7:08 PM
I've created a new thread for HSR-related discussions:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=187432

Acajack
Dec 20, 2010, 7:16 PM
This demonstrates that North America just sucks in general. It's like we're afraid to spend money.

Just afraid to spend money on visionary public projects. Giving public money to corporate friends is perfectly OK in North America.

Dado
Mar 11, 2011, 5:04 PM
But we could have a state-of-the-art and classy terminal in the heart of downtown. Am I seriously the only one who has thought that an LRT station under the Government Conference Centre (old train station) could rather easily tie into a bus terminal that could be adjoined to said station, thereby carrying busloads of people along the canal right into downtown?

Quite possibly you are... there's not a lot of space in the area for a coach terminal.


Even if that were somehow impossible, there are plenty of sites around downtown that could work, or even in places like LeBreton Flats. Hell, we could even pull a NYC and stick the bus terminal underneath a city block occupied by business towers. We shouldn't just keep sticking stuff in the suburbs simply because there is more space and it's cheaper; we should find innovative and creative solutions that keep services in the core.

Perhaps the City could use its Section 37 powers to leverage something out of the rezoning of the current coach terminal to finance something like this.



Perhaps it is not "way out" from the core, but it is still away from the core nonetheless. Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, New York, Quebec, Chicago, Boston, etc. ALL have their bus terminals downtown and have either renovated existing terminals or built new ones in an urban location. The VIA station is still far from being urban.

The VIA station site is definitely a world of the second best compared to a truly downtown location. If we could return the rail station to downtown, I would agree that integrating a coach terminal into it if at all possible would be ideal. The difficulty is just where to put such a facility.

KHOOLE
Mar 11, 2011, 7:07 PM
Looking at Kitchissippi’s pictures of Dec 17th and 19th 2010 and considering what has already been said recently on the 265 Catherine (greyhound terminal) thread, why can’t we have a LRT coming from Kanata down Corkstown Rd to Carling and then become elevated through centretown from the O-Train in Little Italy to the train/bus station hub and then at grade to Orleans via the 417 and 174 roads? The O-Train would start in Gatineau and end at the airport.

Later on, the line could link Kanata to the airport via Barrhaven and Orleans could link with the Gatineau Rapibus by means of a bridge over the Ottawa at Cumberland (sort of a lob-sided figure 8).

A downtown train/bus station would be ideal but that will never happen. Better to plan with what we have and make the best of it. By the end of this century, with the infills and high-rises, the present train station area will be considered as being downtown anyway.

I would improve the present Transitway by making it start at the CHEO/Ottawa Hospital General Campus or even further south and make it connect with the rest of the transportation stuff (including cars off the 417 and parking garages) at the train/bus station. The Transitway would cross downtown by means of cut and cover tunnels on Slater and Albert streets. The buses would go below grade in one-lane enter/exit entrances between Elgin and Metcalfe and do the same more naturally out of Nanny-Goat Hill to the Flats area. Lincoln Fields would connect the Transitway with the east-west LRT. St.Laurent and Blair Rd would be part of the east-west LRT and not part of the Transitway.

The DOTT project, apart from being very expensive, is just replacing an established and successful line and would probably not increase passenger volume or revenues in any considerable amounts.
An east-west LRT line will potentially increase the number of public transportation passengers and decrease vehicle traffic and ever present need for more costly roads.

To plan and create an intermodal hub of this kind at the present train station (Greber’s idea) while there is still open space to do such a venture makes a lot more sense to me than to build an expensive tunnel 10 storeys below ground that will potentially be useful only during downtown working hours 5 days a week. With little use in the evening and being so close to Parliament Hill would make the tunnel vulnerable to undesirable activities and would require costly policing.

The DOTT will not provide transportation to hospitals, medical centres, universities, high schools, Algonquin College, Cité Collégiale, theatres, movies, restaurants, arenas, football and soccer fields, churches, museums, shopping centres, dentists, bars, ethnic clubs and restaurants, the kids in the burbs and just going somewhere for something to do as people do in much larger cities.

A combined train and bus station servicing Ontario and Quebec and most of Eastern Canada and the USA and giving access to many different modes of transportation throughout the entire Ottawa/Gatineau area, while not perfect, is very likely a much better solution to the present traffic congestion on our roads. Considering that Gatineau no longer has a train station, we would think that the planners of both cities and the NCC should be getting together to plan transportation in our area for the next 100 years.

Ottawaresident
Feb 21, 2019, 6:20 PM
Sigh, who created these "Transit Hubs"

Truenorth00
Feb 22, 2019, 2:32 AM
If/when VIA HFR happens, I hope VIA adds bus bays for intercity buses and kill the useless terminal of today.

J.OT13
Feb 22, 2019, 3:03 AM
I think it's time to revisit this idea. Though the Catherine location is closer to downtown, it's actually less convenient than the VIA Rail station, or it will be if/when Confederation opens.

Ottawaresident
Feb 22, 2019, 1:43 PM
Catherine Street is too inaccessible for Transit users. If you were to ask me about relocating the train and bus stations, even LeBreton Flats is a better place. At least that place is walkable and has transit access. And the developments is faltering. Not that Ottawa would ever do it in 50 to a billion years.

AuxTown
Feb 22, 2019, 2:19 PM
I think it's time to revisit this idea. Though the Catherine location is closer to downtown, it's actually less convenient than the VIA Rail station, or it will be if/when Confederation opens.

This Winter has been horrendous for bus passengers. I drive into downtown every day on Kent street and I see people struggling to pull their bags through the snow every morning. It looks like some kind of nightmare where people are fleeing a war-torn country. Build some bus bays and VIA and call it a day. It would be such an easy fix and might be able to generate some income/ridership for VIA at the same time.

HighwayStar
Feb 22, 2019, 2:28 PM
This Winter has been horrendous for VIA passengers. I drive into downtown every day on Kent street and I see people struggling to pull their bags through the snow every morning. It looks like some kind of nightmare where people are fleeing a war-torn country. Build some bus bays and VIA and call it a day. It would be such an easy fix and might be able to generate some income/ridership for VIA at the same time.

:previous: this...

I am in the Kent/Gladstone area all the time and watching people schlep suitcases through the snow is just silly.

Richard Eade
Feb 22, 2019, 3:19 PM
If/when VIA HFR happens, I hope VIA adds bus bays for intercity buses and kill the useless terminal of today.
If HSR happens, perhaps the VIA station could be moved to beside, and connect with, the Hurdman transit station; and the intercity bus facilities could be integrated at the same time. Such a move would form a real transportation hub and release the land VIA is using on Tremblay. It doesn't look as if VIA uses the array of tracks behind the Tremblay building.

Hey, maybe it would even be possible to convert the SE Transitway to be a frequent LRT line between Hurdman and the airport.

roger1818
Feb 22, 2019, 3:51 PM
If/when VIA HFR happens, I hope VIA adds bus bays for intercity buses and kill the useless terminal of today.

If HFR happens, what intercity bus routes do you expect will continue to operate? It would likely kill the routes to Toronto and Montreal and all we would be left with is service to Sudbury, Syracuse and Cornwall (current destinations not easy to get to by train).

This Winter has been horrendous for VIA passengers. I drive into downtown every day on Kent street and I see people struggling to pull their bags through the snow every morning. It looks like some kind of nightmare where people are fleeing a war-torn country. Build some bus bays and VIA and call it a day. It would be such an easy fix and might be able to generate some income/ridership for VIA at the same time.

Do you mean Greyhound passengers? Kent St is pretty far from the train station, so i wouldn't assume they had been taking the train.

Ottawaresident
Feb 22, 2019, 3:52 PM
HM, maybe

lrt's friend
Feb 22, 2019, 4:09 PM
If HSR happens, perhaps the VIA station could be moved to beside, and connect with, the Hurdman transit station; and the intercity bus facilities could be integrated at the same time. Such a move would form a real transportation hub and release the land VIA is using on Tremblay. It doesn't look as if VIA uses the array of tracks behind the Tremblay building.

Hey, maybe it would even be possible to convert the SE Transitway to be a frequent LRT line between Hurdman and the airport.

I looked at maps and there isn't room to relocate the train station to Hurdman and to make it all work would also require the LRT and bus terminals to be moved east and closer to the railway.

One of the challenges is that there is a curve in the tracks near Hurdman, which would be unsuitable. That pushes the station south into a residential area, which will be unacceptable.

J.OT13
Feb 22, 2019, 4:40 PM
Unless the VIA staiton is moved downtown, it shouldn't be moved at all. Having it at Hurdman would result in a net zero improvement.

Acajack
Feb 22, 2019, 4:43 PM
My sense is that enough has been invested in the VIA station and attached O-Train station on Tremblay Road, for all of that to remain there for the foreseeable future.

Truenorth00
Feb 22, 2019, 5:33 PM
If HFR happens, what intercity bus routes do you expect will continue to operate? It would likely kill the routes to Toronto and Montreal and all we would be left with is service to Sudbury, Syracuse and Cornwall (current destinations not easy to get to by train).

Those routes will need a place to park. Better they are co-located with VIA.

I also see new routes emerging. Not just from the long-haul intercity folks. But why not hourly CRT service to match hourly VIA trains with HFR? Or feeder bus service from VIA itself. Similar to AMTRAK Thruway buses in the US? HFR is a paradigm shift with implication beyond the buses to Toronto and Montreal. I also, expect those buses to Sudbury, Syracuse and Cornwall to increase their frequencies as patterns change. I would expect places like Cornwall to match VIA's HFR schedule with smaller vehicles. And I would expect consolidation and code-sharing. For example, some buses to the US shifted to Montreal. And some buses to both the US and to the north and west of Ontario shifted to Ottawa. HFR will change a lot of the network and how we think of long-haul travel.

The current set up is just moronic though. That old, grimy bus terminal is not accessible by rapid transit. It's pushing the definition of "downtown" as a location. And does very poorly for support services like access to cabs and car rentals. Locating with VIA at Tremblay would change all that. Especially under a scenario of a large increase in traffic with VIA itself. With HFR, Tremblay station will become more like a small airport in what support services are offered. You'll be able to rent cars. Cabs will always on-site, etc. We can add luggage storage for day trippers. Transit access will be fantastic with the LRT. And it's very likely that HFR itself could fuel the growth of office space around the station. The bus operators can benefit from all of that, even if they lose some of their long-haul business.

Truenorth00
Feb 22, 2019, 5:42 PM
If HSR happens, perhaps the VIA station could be moved to beside, and connect with, the Hurdman transit station; and the intercity bus facilities could be integrated at the same time. Such a move would form a real transportation hub and release the land VIA is using on Tremblay. It doesn't look as if VIA uses the array of tracks behind the Tremblay building.

1) HSR is not happening anytime soon. And possibly not in our lifetimes. We'll be lucky if HFR gets through unmolested.

2) HFR or HSR, Ottawa will not be a terminus, it will be a through station. As such, the station approaches are very much relevant. And VIA will not be interested in moving the station to facilitate a transit hub, if it negatively impacts the intercity train service.

3) What you propose is a billion dollar endeavour in a country where transit is at best, tolerated, in a city where we still can get sub-10 min bus service to most of the city. There's no way anybody is funding this billion dollar hub. Whatever gets built, it'll be done as cheaply as possible. Far easier and cheaper to build a rail/bus/transit hub at Tremblay than to move the VIA station to Hurdman. It's also questionable cost-benefit ratio when all you're adding is the SE Transitway.

AuxTown
Feb 22, 2019, 6:12 PM
If HFR happens, what intercity bus routes do you expect will continue to operate? It would likely kill the routes to Toronto and Montreal and all we would be left with is service to Sudbury, Syracuse and Cornwall (current destinations not easy to get to by train).



Do you mean Greyhound passengers? Kent St is pretty far from the train station, so i wouldn't assume they had been taking the train.

Sorry, yes, edited

roger1818
Feb 22, 2019, 6:43 PM
Those routes will need a place to park. Better they are co-located with VIA.

I agree. The key is getting Greyhound on-board.

I also see new routes emerging. Not just from the long-haul intercity folks. But why not hourly CRT service to match hourly VIA trains with HFR?

What do you mean by "hourly CRT service"?

Or feeder bus service from VIA itself. Similar to AMTRAK Thruway buses in the US? HFR is a paradigm shift with implication beyond the buses to Toronto and Montreal.

Feeder service to where? Most of the small cities nearby will be served by VIA. I don't think Greyhound could make a business case only serving small towns.

I also, expect those buses to Sudbury, Syracuse and Cornwall to increase their frequencies as patterns change. I would expect places like Cornwall to match VIA's HFR schedule with smaller vehicles. And I would expect consolidation and code-sharing. For example, some buses to the US shifted to Montreal. And some buses to both the US and to the north and west of Ontario shifted to Ottawa. HFR will change a lot of the network and how we think of long-haul travel.

That is a lot of expectations! Sudbury, Syracuse and Cornwall all only have 1 bus a day. Do you really think there will be demand for more than that? Is there a business case to even keep that service without subsidy? Greyhound is struggling to make their numbers work as ridership is on the decline.

The current set up is just moronic though. That old, grimy bus terminal is not accessible by rapid transit. It's pushing the definition of "downtown" as a location. And does very poorly for support services like access to cabs and car rentals. Locating with VIA at Tremblay would change all that. Especially under a scenario of a large increase in traffic with VIA itself. With HFR, Tremblay station will become more like a small airport in what support services are offered. You'll be able to rent cars. Cabs will always on-site, etc. We can add luggage storage for day trippers. Transit access will be fantastic with the LRT. And it's very likely that HFR itself could fuel the growth of office space around the station. The bus operators can benefit from all of that, even if they lose some of their long-haul business.

I don't disagree. I just don't know if there is a business case for it. More likely Greyhound will pick up and leave Ottawa. They might keep their service to Syracuse, but that doesn't have a lot of synergy with VIA Rail

3) What you propose is a billion dollar endeavour in a country where transit is at best, tolerated, in a city where we still can get sub-10 min bus service to most of the city. There's no way anybody is funding this billion dollar hub. Whatever gets built, it'll be done as cheaply as possible. Far easier and cheaper to build a rail/bus/transit hub at Tremblay than to move the VIA station to Hurdman. It's also questionable cost-benefit ratio when all you're adding is the SE Transitway.

My thoughts exactly. Spending billions of dollars to move the train station a few hundred meters to a location that has negligible benefits to the user doesn't make sense.

Truenorth00
Feb 22, 2019, 7:33 PM
I agree. The key is getting Greyhound on-board.

They were onboard when O'Brien proposed it nearly a decade ago when there was no HFR plan. I can't imagine they'd be opposed to it with HFR.



What do you mean by "hourly CRT service"?

Hourly bus from Clarence-Rockland to Tremblay.


Feeder service to where? Most of the small cities nearby will be served by VIA. I don't think Greyhound could make a business case only serving small towns.


That is a lot of expectations! Sudbury, Syracuse and Cornwall all only have 1 bus a day. Do you really think there will be demand for more than that? Is there a business case to even keep that service without subsidy? Greyhound is struggling to make their numbers work as ridership is on the decline.


I don't disagree. I just don't know if there is a business case for it. More likely Greyhound will pick up and leave Ottawa. They might keep their service to Syracuse, but that doesn't have a lot of synergy with VIA Rail

It doesn't necessarily have to be Greyhound. That's my point. Towns themselves could start subsidizing connecting buses. And where the business case exists, VIA itself could launch feeder services. I imagine, for example, more buses to places like Petawawa and North Bay and Cornwall. And they won't necessarily be 45 ft fifty seater coaches. They may just be 35 ft forty seaters running twice or thrice per day. Something like this:

http://www.mcicoach.com/luxury-coaches/passengerJ3500.htm

Ontario Northland could actually get a real boost from such a setup in Eastern Ontario. I could see them supplanting Greyhound as the dominant bus company in these parts.


My thoughts exactly. Spending billions of dollars to move the train station a few hundred meters to a location that has negligible benefits to the user doesn't make sense.

It's not just the cost. It's the fact that the new location may not actually work for whatever HSR/HFR plan is in the works. Especially if Ottawa is a thru station.

acottawa
Feb 22, 2019, 10:44 PM
If HFR happens, what intercity bus routes do you expect will continue to operate? It would likely kill the routes to Toronto and Montreal and all we would be left with is service to Sudbury, Syracuse and Cornwall (current destinations not easy to get to by train).

They are very different markets, I would not expect a lot of impact.

Acajack
Feb 23, 2019, 12:29 AM
Ottawa has service to Syracuse?????

Truenorth00
Feb 23, 2019, 2:51 AM
They are very different markets, I would not expect a lot of impact.

For now. But change the connection possibilities and watch the number of connections soar.