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markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 7:26 PM
Merulla is bang on.

This whole debacle is doing nothing but hurting the city. It is financially unsound, it provides no net benefit for downtown growth, and it has sullied our civic reputation nationally.

No professional sports organization will consider Hamilton home. If this is the fate a 141-year CFL franchise is dealt by council, no one is going to enter a sport business relationship with this city, especially the NHL who were wary of this city as it is.

No amateur sporting event will risk hosting an event in this city now that they see how our council gets bogged down in pettiness and single-mindedness.

What a terrible time this city has entered!

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 7:30 PM
nothing big yet?

realcity
Aug 10, 2010, 7:34 PM
That's why it should've been Confed Park

flar
Aug 10, 2010, 7:34 PM
Merulla is bang on.

This whole debacle is doing nothing but hurting the city. It is financially unsound, it provides no net benefit for downtown growth, and it has sullied our civic reputation nationally.

No professional sports organization will consider Hamilton home. If this is the fate a 141-year CFL franchise is dealt by council, no one is going to enter a sport business relationship with this city, especially the NHL who were wary of this city as it is.

No amateur sporting event will risk hosting an event in this city now that they see how our council gets bogged down in pettiness and single-mindedness.

What a terrible time this city has entered!

I think many regard it as a turning point. Stepping aside for a minute, it's hard to imagine a Canadian city that has had a more passionate debate, and is so divided from so many perspectives. Things seem to be coming to a head in Hamilton. There are the ubiquitous self-loathing Hamiltonians who constantly sell the city short and think things can't work. There are people who look at Hamilton and envision a thriving urban setting that draws on its history and uniquenesss. There are those content to live in the mass of suburbia surrounding the Golden Horseshoe without a care about civic identity or the fate of Hamilton as a city. There are the business minded who think in terms of development and profits at any cost. So many competing interests, billionaires, politicians, mobsters, unions, developers, urbanists...

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 7:38 PM
Man I wish Mark Chamberlain would run for Mayor. Good speaker and good viewpoints.

flar
Aug 10, 2010, 7:41 PM
I should add that if a stadium gets built on the East Mountain, it's a win for people who don't care about Hamilton as a unique city with an identity and a lot of people will lose faith. Too many dissappointments.


The losss of the Tiger Cats would be devastating to the city's identity too. However, we're not there yet. I don't think Young will move them because they're not likely to make money anywhere else either.

thurmas
Aug 10, 2010, 7:49 PM
How about this as a compromise, do what the NFL did when they had to move the Browns to Baltimore yet have an expansion team re-set up shop in Cleveland in 3 years with a new stadium and the team called the Browns. Since this stadium mess looks like it will take some time to settle out have the ti-cats move to Quebec while Hamilton keeps the ti-cat name and gets an expansion team in 2013 or 2014 once the stadium situation is resolved.

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 7:50 PM
We are not getting another team.

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 7:57 PM
Steeltown, smart and articulate people don't get involved in politics

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 7:58 PM
How about this as a compromise, do what the NFL did when they had to move the Browns to Baltimore yet have an expansion team re-set up shop in Cleveland in 3 years with a new stadium and the team called the Browns. Since this stadium mess looks like it will take some time to settle out have the ti-cats move to Quebec while Hamilton keeps the ti-cat name and gets an expansion team in 2013 or 2014 once the stadium situation is resolved.

Not in the books. CFL Commissioner Mark Cohen has said that should the Ticats leave, the CFL will not entertain other CFL franchises for the city.

Oh yeah, and there isn't going to be a stadium.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 8:00 PM
thespec.com live coverage reports the Hamilton Chamber of Commerce no longer siding with West Harbour, says there needs to a business model. Dolbec says an anchor tenant is important which is why the chamber of commerce is changing its position

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 8:03 PM
The Chamber said it'll support either sites as long it gets full support from all side. West Harbour has a business plan and East Mountain doesn't.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 8:07 PM
The Chamber said it'll support either sites as long it gets full support from all side.

...which I guess means if it has the support of the Ticats. Which it doesn't.

"John Dolbec speaking on behalf Hamilton Chamber of Commerce says the West Harbour does not present 'a robust business' opportunity" - Mark Masters reporting from City Hall via Twitter

bluevue
Aug 10, 2010, 8:10 PM
put it in WH and build the stadium. Hamilton community to buy the team from young....just like the Sask Riders and GB packers. With all of the uproar of the team leaving....you would think enough families would come to the table in a second....I heard a lady crying on the radio ysterday because she was so upset. Private investors come up with the means to buy the team. Save the cats. I am talking about households owing the team. $1,000 each or whatever it takes...private money, not tax dollars. It works elsewhere. It would work here. The community would ensure the sucess to buy tickets and have transit to get them to the stadium. Come on....will we as a city to blind enough to not support LRT or whatever transit system makes the WH work. Close Bay street in on Game day and bus it in. bike it in. do whatever. Let's be a leader in using transit that works to avoid using cars...its the way of the future....let's look past the 2015 date and be the leaders. All to 'Pie in the sky" this late in the game, but come on....east mountain and driving is so Fred Flintsone. Where is George Jetson when you need him.

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 8:11 PM
People keep saying there will be a new stadium for Toronto?

Where? North York?

Why would the argos go there? so they can be out of sight and out of mind.?

Acajack
Aug 10, 2010, 8:11 PM
How about this as a compromise, do what the NFL did when they had to move the Browns to Baltimore yet have an expansion team re-set up shop in Cleveland in 3 years with a new stadium and the team called the Browns. Since this stadium mess looks like it will take some time to settle out have the ti-cats move to Quebec while Hamilton keeps the ti-cat name and gets an expansion team in 2013 or 2014 once the stadium situation is resolved.

Except that the Colts had this waiting for them in Indy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCA_Dome

The Colts could also have moved to any number of cities with existing stadiums, including Memphis, Jacksonville, Orlando, Columbus, etc.

The U.S. is full of NFL-sized stadiums all over the country, whereas all of the CFL-sized stadiums in Canada are spoken for.

realcity
Aug 10, 2010, 8:15 PM
This so-called 'wheat field' on EM will have something built on it eventually. So calling it nice farm pasture, is just not true. The entire point of that entire area is to develop it into employment lands, land will add to the tax base. Whether its a stadium or not, that land will have something there.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 8:17 PM
This so-called 'wheat field' on EM will have something built on it eventually. So calling it nice farm pasture, is just not true. The entire point of that entire area is to develop it into employment lands, land will add to the tax base. Whether its a stadium or not, that land will have something there.

With a stadium there will be a loss of tax base. With employment/retail/residential it'll have a tax base.

thurmas
Aug 10, 2010, 8:25 PM
What Canada could really use is a world cup bid just so we have modern stadiums to serve Canada's major cites.CFL is now by far the 2nd most popular league in Canada and is getting similar ratings to the western half of Hockey Night in Canada ratings.Yes the NFL is more popular in Ontario however with such a huge market the CFL should be able to build a strong niche in Southern Ontario. If you look at last year's grey cup ratings vs the super bowl 900,000 in the Hamilton-Toronto area watched the grey cup while 2 million watched the super bowl.Yes the NFL did well there but the cost of a new stadium plus moving a team to Toronto is too much with the NFL more interested in moving to LA. 900,000 fans watching CFL is nothing to sneeze at that's a market size roughly in between that of Edmonton and Winnipeg giving the CFL a market of 900,000 fans to market to which is pretty good.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 8:33 PM
Pretty fantastic to have a young speaker speak about the stadium location.

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 9:10 PM
The NFL will be in LA soon anyway but thumas will just say they'll go to Mexico City than Toronto after that so whats the point.

Never mind the Rogers +MLSE consetorium, which is at least 15 billion in revenure.

What Canada could really use is a world cup bid just so we have modern stadiums to serve Canada's major cites.CFL is now by far the 2nd most popular league in Canada and is getting similar ratings to the western half of Hockey Night in Canada ratings.Yes the NFL is more popular in Ontario however with such a huge market the CFL should be able to build a strong niche in Southern Ontario. If you look at last year's grey cup ratings vs the super bowl 900,000 in the Hamilton-Toronto area watched the grey cup while 2 million watched the super bowl.Yes the NFL did well there but the cost of a new stadium plus moving a team to Toronto is too much with the NFL more interested in moving to LA. 900,000 fans watching CFL is nothing to sneeze at that's a market size roughly in between that of Edmonton and Winnipeg giving the CFL a market of 900,000 fans to market to which is pretty good.

Why can't we have both? Why should TO be denied the NFL exactly? The CFL will be fine.

Also what makes you think they want to pay for the CFL anyway?

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 9:12 PM
This so-called 'wheat field' on EM will have something built on it eventually. So calling it nice farm pasture, is just not true. The entire point of that entire area is to develop it into employment lands, land will add to the tax base. Whether its a stadium or not, that land will have something there.

Wal Mart? Lowe's?

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 9:21 PM
"Ron Foxcroft says Bob Young & Scott Mitchell have a location lined up to move 2 but won't announce yet." - Twitter update from Mark Masters covering Ron Foxcroft's presentastion at City Hall a few minutes ago.

So yeah, Young is not bluffing. City Hall's idea of community building is by driving out the only major sports franchise that gives Hamilton a civic identity nationwide. Brilliant.

flar
Aug 10, 2010, 9:24 PM
"Ron Foxcroft says Bob Young & Scott Mitchell have a location lined up to move 2 but won't announce yet." - Twitter update from Mark Masters covering Ron Foxcroft's presentastion at City Hall a few minutes ago.

So yeah, Young is not bluffing. City Hall's idea of community building is by driving out the only major sports franchise that gives Hamilton a civic identity nationwide. Brilliant.

That doesn't mean he's not bluffing. This won't be settled today, this is going to go on for a long time.

Acajack
Aug 10, 2010, 9:24 PM
What Canada could really use is a world cup bid just so we have modern stadiums to serve Canada's major cites..

It looks like this might be the way to go, although the logic behind it does appear a bit nonsensical to me.

Spending tens of millions or even hundreds of millions on stadiums that will be used for maybe five World Cup games just once in their history gets you applause. But spending the same amount on a stadium if it is to be used 10 or 20 times a year for various local uses over 30 or 40 years, now that's misuse of taxpayer funds!

Anyway, I happen to love the World Cup, and many of our cities sorely need decent stadiums. So I say go for it.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 9:26 PM
Anyway, I happen to love the World Cup, and many of our cities sorely need decent stadiums. So I say go for it.

Even if that dream came true, you know FIFA will avoid Hamilton like the plague. This city is sending a clear message to sports organizations: We are closed for business!

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 9:29 PM
That doesn't mean he's not bluffing. This won't be settled today, this is going to go on for a long time.

This must be settled by Thursday in order for Hostco to firm up stadium locations. If the Ticats are not on board, rest assured Hostco will not be building in Hamilton.

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 9:34 PM
Mark what is the location you think?

thurmas
Aug 10, 2010, 9:44 PM
Toronto has a decent shot an nfl team, however I just don't see how it benefits the nfl. It doesn't help in tv negotiations because they are all u.s. tv networks they negotiate with. The NFL already have a huge presence in Canada. Also the football fan in Toronto doesn't seem as hardcore and passionate about football as in other cities. I would hazard to guess an NFL Toronto team would sell maybe 45,000 a game whcih is horrible by NFL standards. Also the evaluations of NFL teams worth is close to $1 billion plus the cost of a new NFL type stadium is close to another $1 billion why would Rogers spend that much on a sports team?

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 9:45 PM
Mark what is the location you think?

My first preference was Kay Drage Park, one of the ten locations proposed by Bob Young and rejected by the city during the fake facilitation process. I would then default to Confed Park if it was put on the table. In a third attempt to keep it in a more established neighbourhood I would advocate revisiting a rehabilitation of Ivor Wynne, but that isn't on the table either.

Of the two options presented, I would begrudgingly choose East Mountain. West Harbour will be a terrible mistake, and I hate the fact that council is gearing up for a decision that puts me in the position of eventually having to say "I told you so" yet again.

My biggest frustration is how the city did absolutely no research into a viable site in the downtown area. They were lazy, plain and simple. They just dusted off an old Commonwealth Games proposal that never made much sense back when first proposed seven years ago. More importantly, the city never actively engaged their principal tenant on the site selection process.

Most people supporting WH are doing so simply because it's downtown, wrongly believing that anywhere downtown would be better than any other part of the city.

This has been an epic fail by the city. I hope voters remember this come October.

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 9:51 PM
IMO That TV Contract is dead. Also there was a ruling a few weeks ago stating the NFL was not one organization. That does benefit Toronto but New York and Chicago and Philly more so.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 9:52 PM
Apparently Hostco will be issuing a statement about the Pan Am Games immediately after Hamilton City Council has voted on the site location.

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 9:54 PM
My first preference was Kay Drage Park, one of the ten locations proposed by Bob Young and rejected by the city during the fake facilitation process. I would then default to Confed Park if it was put on the table. In a third attempt to keep it in a more established neighbourhood I would advocate revisiting a rehabilitation of Ivor Wynne, but that isn't on the table either.

Of the two options presented, I would begrudgingly choose East Mountain. West Harbour will be a terrible mistake, and I hate the fact that council is gearing up for a decision that puts me in the position of eventually having to say "I told you so" yet again.

My biggest frustration is how the city did absolutely no research into a viable site in the downtown area. They were lazy, plain and simple. They just dusted off an old Commonwealth Games proposal that never made much sense back when first proposed seven years ago. More importantly, the city never actively engaged their principal tenant on the site selection process.

Most people supporting WH are doing so simply because it's downtown, wrongly believing that anywhere downtown would be better than any other part of the city.

This has been an epic fail by the city. I hope voters remember this come October.

A lot of the people are anti suburb espcialy those under 30.

What about outside the city? I have my money on Saskatoon acutally.

Berklon
Aug 10, 2010, 10:04 PM
Also the football fan in Toronto doesn't seem as hardcore and passionate about football as in other cities. I would hazard to guess an NFL Toronto team would sell maybe 45,000 a game whcih is horrible by NFL standards.

CFL football fans in Toronto don't seem as hardcore and passionate as other cities. Give them an NFL team and there is no doubt that they would do great. Plenty of NFL football fans and plenty of corporate support. They would easily sell out a 70,000 seat stadium 8 times a year. You also have to remember that it's not just Toronto... it'd be drawing from all of Southern Ontario... you know, just like a good deal of fans from Southern Ontario go to Bills games in Buffalo. It's pretty much a slam dunk if they were to ever get a team.

Basing NFL support on Argos support is pointless. That'd be like saying Toronto can't support the NHL because the Marlies have horrible attendance. Apples and oranges.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 10:07 PM
Just posted on the online edition of the National Post:

Can Hamilton build a stadium without the Ticats?
Mark Masters August 10, 2010 – 5:48 pm

HAMILTON — On Monday, the owner of the Hamilton Tiger-Cats, Bob Young, announced his team was withdrawing from a discussion with the city of Hamilton over where a new stadium will be built.

The Canadian Football League club and the city have been embroiled in a debate over where a new stadium — to be used as a soccer facility in the Toronto 2015 Pan-Am Games — should be situated.

Young’s letter to Hamilton Mayor Fred Eisenberger said his team would likely leave Hamilton after its lease at Ivor Wynne Stadium runs out in 2011.

Hamilton City Council is meeting on Tuesday to vote on where the new stadium should be built: a West Harbour site, which Eisenberger supports, or an East Mountain location, which the Ticats favoured.

Much of the conversation during Tuesday’s council meeting revolved around whether the Toronto 2015 Pan-Am Games organizing committee will approve the Hamilton stadium location if the Ticats are not on board. Toronto 2015 has said it is important for all venues being built for the Games to have an anchor tenant and a legacy after the games.

Ian Troop, the CEO of Toronto 2015, sent an e-mail to a Hamilton city councilor on Monday night clarifying that issue. Toronto 2015 has provided the National Post with text from the e-mail:

My best answer to your question gets back to the Venue Principle of “sustaining legacy”.

With the Tiger-cats out of the planning picture, whatever the recommendation coming out of council still needs to deal with the Legacy principle.

The central questions we are using to understand Legacy are:

1. What are the community sport uses?

2. What are the high performance sport uses? And

3. What is the business plan (which defines the revenue from tenants and cost to operate) which supports the viability of the facility for the facility owners.

Supporters of the West Harbour location have said the stadium would have a legacy — if not an anchor tenant — because many community events could be held at the venue throughout each year.

But, during Tuesday’s council meeting the CEO of the Hamilton Chamber of Commerce, John Dolbec warned councilors and the mayor that, without the Ticats involved, the business plan for the West Harbour location becomes suspect.

“As a business organization we look at all this and what do we see? We see a very risky proposition if the city goes forward without a vital anchor tenant,” said Dolbec.

“In business terms we’d say the Tiger-Cats are the city’s main customers at the stadium. When your main customer doesn’t like what you’re offering and your capital funding is contingent on that customer being happy, the realities are hard to ignore.”

Council is scheduled to vote on the issue early Tuesday evening. After a decision is made, Eisenberger will inform Troop of what location the city supports. At that time Toronto 2015 must either approve the spot or decide it doesn’t meet the necessary criteria.

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2010/08/10/can-hamilton-build-a-stadium-without-the-ticats/#ixzz0wF7hbnBv

While a case for community sport use could be made on the fly, there is no evidence of a clearly defined high performance sport use for the facility from anything presented thus far today. More importantly, from what has been presented today it is clear there is no business plan to support the viability of the facility.

I fear there will not be much good news coming from the Hostco statement tonight.

Mister F
Aug 10, 2010, 10:10 PM
Toronto has a decent shot an nfl team, however I just don't see how it benefits the nfl. It doesn't help in tv negotiations because they are all u.s. tv networks they negotiate with. The NFL already have a huge presence in Canada. Also the football fan in Toronto doesn't seem as hardcore and passionate about football as in other cities. I would hazard to guess an NFL Toronto team would sell maybe 45,000 a game whcih is horrible by NFL standards. Also the evaluations of NFL teams worth is close to $1 billion plus the cost of a new NFL type stadium is close to another $1 billion why would Rogers spend that much on a sports team?
Not only that, but the NFL doesn't want to see the CFL further weakened. It's the only other real gridiron league in the world. A lot of football fans in Canada is good for the NFL, and football is popular here because we have our own league. An NFL team in Toronto could weaken the CFL (think TV revenues) to the point where it hurts the game across the country. I don't see the NFL rushing into Toronto anytime soon.

There's something to be said for each country having its own league.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 10:12 PM
A lot of the people are anti suburb espcialy those under 30.

What about outside the city? I have my money on Saskatoon acutally.

The CFL will want to keep the Ticats in the Eastern division. I expect the team to be playing in Quebec City for the 2012 season. This will allow the league to keep its expansion ambitions by adding one team in each division when expansion occurs: One in Ottawa and the other possibly in Saskatoon. Alternatively, expansion could be Ottawa and Halifax with Winnipeg realigned back to the western division.

(As an aside, the East Mountain location is not suburban in the proper sense of the word. It is within the urban boundary of the City of Hamilton. But there are people of very limited mindset that automatically equate anything above the escarpment with the suburbs.)

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 10:16 PM
Just posted on the online edition of the National Post:



While a case for community sport use could be made on the fly, there is no evidence of a clearly defined high performance sport use for the facility from anything presented thus far today. More importantly, from what has been presented today it is clear there is no business plan to support the viability of the facility.

I fear there will not be much good news coming from the Hostco statement tonight.

They've made the decision already?

I missed it.

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 10:18 PM
The CFL will want to keep the Ticats in the Eastern division. I expect the team to be playing in Quebec City for the 2012 season. This will allow the league to keep its expansion ambitions by adding one team in each division when expansion occurs: One in Ottawa and the other possibly in Saskatoon. Alternatively, expansion could be Ottawa and Halifax with Winnipeg realigned back to the western division.

(As an aside, the East Mountain location is not suburban in the proper sense of the word. It is within the urban boundary of the City of Hamilton. But there are people of very limited mindset that automatically equate anything above the escarpment with the suburbs.)

True but Hamilton has a history. I think Cohon is stupid by saying we won't get one back.

flar
Aug 10, 2010, 10:20 PM
The CFL will want to keep the Ticats in the Eastern division. I expect the team to be playing in Quebec City for the 2012 season. This will allow the league to keep its expansion ambitions by adding one team in each division when expansion occurs: One in Ottawa and the other possibly in Saskatoon. Alternatively, expansion could be Ottawa and Halifax with Winnipeg realigned back to the western division.

(As an aside, the East Mountain location is not suburban in the proper sense of the word. It is within the urban boundary of the City of Hamilton. But there are people of very limited mindset that automatically equate anything above the escarpment with the suburbs.)

You're really putting the cart in front of the horse now. You think Young is going to move the team to an inadequte stadium and Quebec and not lose more money than he is in Hamilton?

And come on, the East Mountain is suburban no matter how you slice it. To try to argue otherwise is to engage in sophistry (or just plain moronic).

thurmas
Aug 10, 2010, 10:20 PM
I always thought the argos would die before the ti-cats. No matter what side your on this is really sad.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 10:22 PM
True but Hamilton has a history. I think Cohon is stupid by saying we won't get one back.

Hamilton had an NHL history once as well. That hasn't got us any further up in the queue for a replacement team in the 85 years since they left.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 10:24 PM
"During the break one councilor told me West Harbour will likely win tonight's vote 11-5 or 12-4"

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 10:25 PM
Motion is moved by Mayor Eisenberger to vote for the West Harbour site.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 10:26 PM
You're really putting the cart in front of the horse now. You think Young is going to move the team to an inadequte stadium and Quebec and not lose more money than he is in Hamilton?

QC is extrememly football friendly and has all seven elements that Bob Young identified as necessary for a CFL franchise to succeed. And there is a council there that is eager for the CFL to locate there. QC would be a cash cow compared to Hamilton's WH proposal.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 10:28 PM
Eisenberger - "High performance sports doesn't mean professional sport"

flar
Aug 10, 2010, 10:29 PM
QC is extrememly football friendly and has all seven elements that Bob Young identified as necessary for a CFL franchise to succeed. And there is a council there that is eager for the CFL to locate there. QC would be a cash cow compared to Hamilton's WH proposal.

Inadequate stadium == no profit. Only one team in the CFL turns a profit. What makes QC a cash cow compared to the others?

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 10:33 PM
Inadequate stadium == no profit. Only one team in the CFL turns a profit. What makes QC a cash cow compared to the others?

As it stands now, PEPS can hold 18,000, 1,000 more than current average attendance. How can it be worse than current Hamilton situation?

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 10:38 PM
So far for West Harbour

Yea: Eisenberger
Nay: Merulla, McCarthy

Urban_Genius
Aug 10, 2010, 10:40 PM
It's very likely in my opinion, if the Ti-Cats leave the GTA, they'll be in London, Ontario. London was considered for a team before, but due to it's proximity to the GTA and the fact the argos and ti-cats we're bankrupt in 2003, that idea kind of went to the back burner. With a population of half a million people and a history of supporting the Knights and the Mustangs it's likely that Bob Young would be willing to invest to bring TD waterhouse stadium to CFL standard.

Don't let yourselves be fooled, there are legitimate options for the team. Moncton and Quebec City as well. The only downfall with Moncton is determining if the market can support a CFL team.

Quebec City will get a team regardless. It's just a matter of time. In fact they already have a potential ownership group, it's just Laval university is being stubborn and doesn't want a CFL team playing in their stadium. Currently work is being done to see if a stadium could be built in a Quebec City suburb.

Lastly, the temporary stadium in Vancouver can be shipped and used a temporary solution just about anywhere.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 10:43 PM
So far for West Harbour

Yea: Eisenberger, Pearson
Nay: Merulla, McCarthy

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 10:51 PM
So far for West Harbour

Yea: Eisenberger, Pearson, Powers
Nay: Merulla, McCarthy

thurmas
Aug 10, 2010, 10:55 PM
edmonton makes money,bc does,calgary does, sask by far makes money,winnipeg off and on makes money, montreal will with expanded stadium.as to the football passion of toronto fans I don't think they would suceed at the nfl. Toronto is more of a soccer town with such a big immigrant community.Also at the grassroots level quebec and western canada have much better participation in football especially at the high school level and university ball.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 10:57 PM
Council has learned nothing from this exercise. As usual.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 10:57 PM
So far for West Harbour

Yea: Eisenberger, Pearson, Powers, McHattie
Nay: Merulla, McCarthy

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 10:58 PM
The WH won.

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 10:59 PM
edmonton makes money,bc does,calgary does, sask by far makes money,winnipeg off and on makes money, montreal will with expanded stadium.as to the football passion of toronto fans I don't think they would suceed at the nfl. Toronto is more of a soccer town with such a big immigrant community.Also at the grassroots level quebec and western canada have much better participation in football especially at the high school level and university ball.

I thought EDM was losing money? MTL I know since they were habs 24/7.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 10:59 PM
You'll need 8 councillors to get a majority. So far West Harbour has 4 so far.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 11:03 PM
The plot thickens - Jackson moves to defer, Whitehead seconds. Both previously supported WH

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 11:05 PM
Sounds like the motion to defer got shot down by the Clerk.

drpgq
Aug 10, 2010, 11:10 PM
Just as a curiosity, I always thought that the mayor only votes if there is a tie. I guess that's incorrect?

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 11:12 PM
So far for West Harbour

Yea: Eisenberger, Pearson, Powers, McHattie, ?Jackson?
Nay: Merulla, McCarthy

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 11:20 PM
So far for West Harbour

Yea: Eisenberger, Pearson, Powers, McHattie, ?Jackson?, Morelli
Nay: Merulla, McCarthy


Surprised by Morelli

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 11:27 PM
So far for West Harbour

Yea: Eisenberger, Pearson, Powers, McHattie, ?Jackson?, Morelli, Ferguson
Nay: Merulla, McCarthy

We can pretty much conclude that city council will vote for in favour of West Harbour as site for the Pan American Stadium.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 11:29 PM
Whitehead introduce a motion to negotiate with the Ti Cats for terms for use of West Harbour stadium.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 11:32 PM
Eisenberger supports Whitehead's motion but wants the feds, province and Hostco included along with the Ti Cats for negotiation.

Berklon
Aug 10, 2010, 11:37 PM
Hamilton had an NHL history once as well. That hasn't got us any further up in the queue for a replacement team in the 85 years since they left.

Oh come on... are you really going to compare the NHL (which has the majority of teams in the US with the head office in the US) with the CFL?

If Hamilton lost their team and down the road someone like Balsillie (just an example) comes in and wants to put a CFL team back in Hamilton - do you honestly think the CFL will say "Sorry... you had a team, it's gone... you aren't getting one back".? They'll just forget the history, they'll continue to keep 8 teams in the league when there's a big market sitting empty, and they'll reject bringing in someone with deep pockets?

I really need to play poker with you. I can use the money.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 11:38 PM
Motion dropped.

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 11:42 PM
Oh come on... are you really going to compare the NHL (which has the majority of teams in the US with the head office in the US) with the CFL?

If Hamilton lost their team and down the road someone like Balsillie (just an example) comes in and wants to put a CFL team back in Hamilton - do you honestly think the CFL will say "Sorry... you had a team, it's gone... you aren't getting one back".? They'll just forget the history, they'll continue to keep 8 teams in the league when there's a big market sitting empty, and they'll reject bringing in someone with deep pockets?

I really need to play poker with you. I can use the money.

Berklon, the CFL is run by an overgrown teenager. So I have to agree with Mark.

I don't ever wan to here anyone blame Toronto for the CFL's problems ever again.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 11:45 PM
So far for West Harbour

Yea: Eisenberger, Pearson, Powers, McHattie, ?Jackson?, Morelli, Ferguson, Whitehead
Nay: Merulla, McCarthy

matt602
Aug 10, 2010, 11:47 PM
I guess that's the majority required.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 11:48 PM
Update?

Pan American Stadium | ? | ? | Approved -> Pan American Stadium | ? | ? | Re-Approved??

flar
Aug 10, 2010, 11:49 PM
WH is the right decision for council. It's the best thing for the city. It was planned from the beginning. It was in the bid book for the Pan Am games. The Ticats were on board at one time (and will be again). If the PanAm committee reneges on the funding, you can point the finger at Bob Young, who will have dug the Ticats grave in that event. City council can't ignore what's best for the city to satisfy a Toronto sporting event and one professional sports owner.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 11:52 PM
So far for West Harbour

Yea: Eisenberger, Pearson, Powers, McHattie, ?Jackson?, Morelli, Ferguson, Whitehead, Duvall
Nay: Merulla, McCarthy

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 11:53 PM
So it's the WH.

Berklon
Aug 10, 2010, 11:58 PM
Berklon, the CFL is run by an overgrown teenager. So I have to agree with Mark.

Then Hamilton has nothing to cry about... since the rest of the CFL is doomed anyways.

Berklon
Aug 10, 2010, 11:59 PM
The right decision was made.

SteelTown
Aug 11, 2010, 12:00 AM
So far for West Harbour

Yea: Eisenberger, Pearson, Powers, McHattie, ?Jackson?, Morelli, Ferguson, Whitehead, Duvall
Nay: Merulla, McCarthy, Mitchell

SteelTown
Aug 11, 2010, 12:01 AM
So far for West Harbour

Yea: Eisenberger, Pearson, Powers, McHattie, ?Jackson?, Morelli, Ferguson, Whitehead, Duvall, Collins
Nay: Merulla, McCarthy, Mitchell

dennis1
Aug 11, 2010, 12:05 AM
Then Hamilton has nothing to cry about... since the rest of the CFL is doomed anyways.

Its really typical. The CFL does good some, then gets into serious financial trouble. This somehow has become a sustainable cycle.

SteelTown
Aug 11, 2010, 12:14 AM
So far for West Harbour

Yea: Eisenberger, Pearson, Powers, McHattie, ?Jackson?, Morelli, Ferguson, Whitehead, Duvall, Collins, Bratina
Nay: Merulla, McCarthy, Mitchell

Blurr
Aug 11, 2010, 12:17 AM
Given what is on the table this is what is best for the city of Hamilton. Looks like the master plan is still on.

Good job councilors.

SteelTown
Aug 11, 2010, 12:23 AM
So far for West Harbour

Yea: Eisenberger, Pearson, Powers, McHattie, ?Jackson?, Morelli, Ferguson, Whitehead, Duvall, Collins, Bratina, Pasuta
Nay: Merulla, McCarthy, Mitchell

SteelTown
Aug 11, 2010, 12:25 AM
Okay they are making the final vote.

SteelTown
Aug 11, 2010, 12:26 AM
12-3 for West Harbour.

markbarbera
Aug 11, 2010, 12:26 AM
Bad bad decision. Let's wait to hear from Hostco now.

BCTed
Aug 11, 2010, 12:30 AM
Bad bad decision. Let's wait to hear from Hostco now.

Really bad decision.

flar
Aug 11, 2010, 12:31 AM
If the PanAm reneges on the funding, I smell lawsuits...

markbarbera
Aug 11, 2010, 12:39 AM
If the PanAm reneges on the funding, I smell lawsuits...

On what grounds? Hamilton has not met the requirements for funding.

flar
Aug 11, 2010, 12:40 AM
On what grounds? Hamilton has not met the requirements for funding.

That might be for the courts to decide...

markbarbera
Aug 11, 2010, 12:44 AM
That might be for the courts to decide...

Rubbish! It is the responsibility of Hostco to select sites, and site selection hasn't even been finalized.

SteelTown
Aug 11, 2010, 12:51 AM
Council also voted in favour of a motion to reach out to the Ticats to get them on board at West Harbour.

markbarbera
Aug 11, 2010, 12:54 AM
Council also voted in favour of a motion to reach out to the Ticats to get them on board at West Harbour.

Like that's going to happen. Bob and Scott weren't there tonight because they are taking a night course in coversational French.

holymoly
Aug 11, 2010, 12:54 AM
Council also voted in favour of a motion to reach out to the Ticats to get them on board at West Harbour.

There were two or three councillors who voted against that motion. Anyone know why?

Anders Knudsen
Aug 11, 2010, 12:55 AM
these are the Hostco criteria for the stadium from their bid book:

Venue: Pan American Stadium

As an important new development, the Pan American Stadium will be a significant project as part of the Games’ Venue Plan, and provide a legacy directly related to hosting the 2015 Pan American Games.
The new 15,000-seat stadium will include a leading-edge 400m running track
with all the required areas for throwing and jumping disciplines. An adjacent
warm-up training track, replicating the features of the Stadium will be added
to the site to create a premier national training centre for Athletics, capable of hosting national and international events following the Games.
Current Status
• New build
• Construction Status: Completed by 2014
• Current / Future Owner: City of Hamilton
Venue Highlights
• Meets all International Federation specifications
• Seating Capacity: 15,000
• Distance from village: 45 minutes/68km
• Parking spaces: 8,400
Current and Post Games Use
• Post Games, the Pan American Stadium will remain
as a national training centre supporting national
sport development objectives, and capable of
hosting major national and international events.
• The facility will also be a significant multi-purpose
community asset that will serve the broad needs
of the region.

Also the stadium meets all the federal requirements. The real question is whether the city can afford it, even with the fed and provincial funding and future fund.

markbarbera
Aug 11, 2010, 1:02 AM
these are the Hostco criteria for the stadium from their bid book:

Venue: Pan American Stadium

As an important new development, the Pan American Stadium will be a significant project as part of the Games’ Venue Plan, and provide a legacy directly related to hosting the 2015 Pan American Games.
The new 15,000-seat stadium will include a leading-edge 400m running track
with all the required areas for throwing and jumping disciplines. An adjacent
warm-up training track, replicating the features of the Stadium will be added
to the site to create a premier national training centre for Athletics, capable of hosting national and international events following the Games.
Current Status
• New build
• Construction Status: Completed by 2014
• Current / Future Owner: City of Hamilton
Venue Highlights
• Meets all International Federation specifications
• Seating Capacity: 15,000
• Distance from village: 45 minutes/68km
• Parking spaces: 8,400
Current and Post Games Use
• Post Games, the Pan American Stadium will remain
as a national training centre supporting national
sport development objectives, and capable of
hosting major national and international events.
• The facility will also be a significant multi-purpose
community asset that will serve the broad needs
of the region.

Also the stadium meets all the federal requirements. The real question is whether the city can afford it, even with the fed and provincial funding and future fund.

First off, that's a description of the facility, not a list of requirements. Secondly, that is the description of the track stadium, which is no longer being constructed in Hamilton. Thirdly, WH does not meet the federal funding requirement of economic viability.

Anders Knudsen
Aug 11, 2010, 1:05 AM
There were two or three councillors who voted against that motion. Anyone know why?

Merulla wants Ivor Wynne restored, McCarthy wants no Panam games or stadium, Mitchell seemed to want to have nothing to do with anything Eisenberger's supporting.

Berklon
Aug 11, 2010, 1:07 AM
Merulla wants Ivor Wynne restored, McCarthy wants no Panam games or stadium, Mitchell seemed to want to have nothing to do with anything Eisenberger's supporting.

That East Mountain option certainly is attractive. :haha:

holymoly
Aug 11, 2010, 1:09 AM
Merulla wants Ivor Wynne restored, McCarthy wants no Panam games or stadium, Mitchell seemed to want to have nothing to do with anything Eisenberger's supporting.
Got it. So it's not really because they think the Ti-Cats shouldn't be wooed.

Anders Knudsen
Aug 11, 2010, 1:11 AM
First off, that's a description of the facility, not a list of requirements. Secondly, that is the description of the track stadium, which is no longer being constructed in Hamilton. Thirdly, WH does not meet the federal funding requirement of economic viability.

federal requirements:

The City owns the stadium
• The stadium must be used for the 2015 Games
• The stadium must be used for high-performance sport, after the 2015 Games
• There is no objection to a professional football team (CFL franchise) using the stadium as tenants
• The Board for the 2015 Games approve the construction of the stadium and that it be ready on schedule and within budget.

As for the Hostco 'description' as opposed to 'criteria,' I've yet to see a document listing those criteria, only statements from Troop etc. Not to say I don't agree with you that Hostco can pull the funding, but it will be on terms that seem to have been made up as they went along.