Tim Hortons Field | 40m | ? | Complete

[Acajack]

I'd argue that there would be a pretty large negative impact. The Tiger-Cats are one of the main cultural icons and points of pride for this city and represent one of the symbols that help differentiate it from a place like London in the Canadian consciousness.

I don't know about you, but the first (and sometimes only) point of association that I think of for a given city tends to be its sports teams. I think this is the case for most people, even non-sports fans.

When I think of Edmonton, I tend to think of the Oilers and the large mall. The Eskimos are admittedly probably the third thing.
When I think of Calgary, I think of the Flames and oil and the Stampede. Then maybe the Stampeders and the Olympics.
When I think of Winnipeg, I think of the Blue Bombers and the Jets.
Green Bay is the Packers.
Baltimore is the Orioles and the Ravens.
Indianopolis is car racing and the Colts.
Buffalo is the Bills and the Sabres.

London is what --- insurance? UWO? The Labatt Centre?
Kitchener is what --- Oktoberfest?
Windsor is what --- the casino? Cars?
Each of the above three have OHL teams that help the community have a common point of interest ---- not sure if any of those cities are primarily known for their OHL teams, but places like Belleville, Peterborough, Oshawa might be.

For many in Canada, Hamilton is probably the Tiger-Cats and maybe steel. Without the Tiger-Cats, it might be just steel.

As someone who has lived in several parts of Canada, this is absolutely right: the Ti-Cats are a huge part of Hamilton's cross-Canada visibility, and actually make the city more known than many other similarly-sized cities in the country. People in Hamilton may not realize this, but it is true.

I would venture to say that the Ti-Cats even provide some modest American visibility. Not so much because of CFL coverage in the U.S. (which does exist you know), but because millions of Americans are fans of college football and many of the players that were college stars in various parts of the U.S. end up in the CFL and their fans sometimes continue to follow them (as best they can).

Just an example: a generation or so ago JC Watts put Ottawa on the map for a lot of people in Oklahoma...

Now, Berklon is of course right in saying that being in the NHL would provide much greater visibility than the CFL. Of course this is correct.

[mattgrande]

I spoke with my mom's cousin on the weekend. He's Doug Duke, President of the Hamilton-Halton Home Builders' Association. He knows lots about city building, construction, etc, and is just a swell guy. He reminded me of this:

http://www.stoneycreeknews.com/news/article/204957

The short version is, there won't be any more fireworks at Valley Park for a few reasons, including parking and traffic concerns.

For those of you who don't know where Valley Park is: http://i.imgur.com/Iz6Mr.png

That area can't handle the influx of cars for an annual fireworks show, but Mr. Young expects to handle a Ti-Cats game without difficulty?

[markbarbera]

Matt, that was discussed here some weeks back. The issue with the fireworks at Valley Park was more of a crowd control issue within the park, as reported here in thespec.com (http://www.thespec.com/article/773800). Valley Park was not designed to handle 20,000 people in its park, and attendance was approaching that level, causing Hamilton Police to raise safety concerns.

Valley Park can't handle that number of people, but the proposed EM stadium, located west of Valley Park, at the junction of RHVP and the LINC with its own dedicated parking can easily handle that. The city's report on the EM site confirmed that.

[SteelTown]

Somewhat related....

$2-million to build high-performance track program
Two-time Olympian Paula Schnurr named head coach of track and field team

August 09, 2010
http://dailynews.mcmaster.ca/story.cfm?id=6904

McMaster University has received $2-million, bequeathed by philanthropist Mona Campbell, to enhance and build an elite track and field program which will attract student athletes from across the country.

The gift will be used to fund coaching, training programs, scholarships for athletes, tutoring, recruiting and travel to special competitions.

"We are very grateful to Mona Campbell, who has left a remarkable legacy of giving that will benefit student athletes for many years to come," said Patrick Deane, President of McMaster University. "This will help McMaster strengthen an already excellent program and ensure our students have access to the best possible education, training and facilities."

Campbell, who died in 2008 at the age of 89, was chair and CEO of Dover Industries, which she inherited from her father when she was 33. At the time of her death, the company was Canada's largest flour-milling operation with revenues of $228-million and 500 employees. She was also the first female director of the Toronto-Dominion Bank and received an honorary degree from McMaster's DeGroote School of Business in 2003.

She was a well-known philanthropist, giving to numerous arts and animal welfare programs. Supporting young athletes was also important to Campbell, whose father ran track for the University of Toronto.

"This remarkable gift will certainly help achieve our goal of becoming one of the elite athletic programs in all of North America," said Jeff Giles, director of Athletics & Recreation at McMaster. "As a direct result of this gift we are pleased to announce that Paula Schnurr will be taking on an expanded role within our department, becoming the new head coach of our track and field team."

Schnurr, a McMaster graduate and two-time Olympian, was the assistant coach of the team for the last three years and brings a wealth of experience to the program. She competed in the 1500-metre run in the 1992 and 1996 Olympics, and won a silver medal in the 1994 Commonwealth Games.

"I am excited for this wonderful opportunity, thankful to Mona Campbell for being a visionary who was committed to track and field, and hopeful that her gift will allow us to create even greater opportunities for our athletes," said Schnurr.

In addition to Schnurr, the coaching staff and team will continue to benefit from the involvement of Rory Sneyd, assistant coach. As head coach for the last four years, he has been instrumental in positioning McMaster as one of the top track schools in Canada. He will continue as the head coach of the cross country team.

[dennis1]

As someone who has lived in several parts of Canada, this is absolutely right: the Ti-Cats are a huge part of Hamilton's cross-Canada visibility, and actually make the city more known than many other similarly-sized cities in the country. People in Hamilton may not realize this, but it is true.

I would venture to say that the Ti-Cats even provide some modest American visibility. Not so much because of CFL coverage in the U.S. (which does exist you know), but because millions of Americans are fans of college football and many of the players that were college stars in various parts of the U.S. end up in the CFL and their fans sometimes continue to follow them (as best they can).

Just an example: a generation or so ago JC Watts put Ottawa on the map for a lot of people in Oklahoma...

Now, Berklon is of course right in saying that being in the NHL would provide much greater visibility than the CFL. Of course this is correct.

Which is why they will play at the west harbour.

[flar]

Road accessiblity and parking talk are all irrelevant. People will figure out how to get to the stadium if they want to. It may surpise some people in Hamilton know that other cities don't let lack of parking and highway access to stop them from doing things. Just one tiny example, my office building contains nearly 4000 workers yet has only 64 parking spaces. Not surprisingly, I've never once driven to work but I show up every day just the same.

[markbarbera]

Interesting commentary by Dreschel in today's paper:

Who harpooned harbour site?
Andrew Dreschel
August 9, 2010
thespec.com

Let's not kid ourselves.

The province and feds might want us to believe that was all a false alarm, that the stadium decision is still entirely in local hands.

But it's probably best to view the crazy confusion of the last couple of days as a wake-up call, a not-so subtle reminder that without the Ticats as a tenant, the west harbour will likely be a non-starter.

Politically, the story is more fishy than a sardine and anchovy pizza.

Despite the spate of denials and clarifications, there's no question that something oily was happening behind the scenes to try to scupper the west harbour location.

At this point, it's impossible to say how many hands were on the strings.

Ian Troop, head of the Pan Am organizing committee, apparently set the storm in motion when he reported to the province that the federal government told him funding for the west harbour would be pulled because it didn't have an anchor tenant, a.k.a. the Hamilton Tiger-Cats.

Trouble is, Troop's meeting with Gary Lunn, minister of state for sport, took place last Friday morning.

Yet MPP Sophia Aggelonitis, Hamilton's cabinet minister, says Premier Dalton McGuinty's office had already contacted her the night before to say the province was following the federal lead and pulling its own funding.

Concerns the harbour was getting harpooned were also circulating among city hall players Thursday night, concerns which were confirmed by a phone call from the premier's office to Mayor Fred Eisenberger the next day.

Yesterday, Lunn was busy denying a lot of things.

...

http://www.thespec.com/Opinions/Columnist/article/822330

[mattgrande]

http://www.thespec.com/article/822979


Councillor Sam Merulla says he has been informed that the the Hamilton Tiger-Cats are planning to leave town.

He says they have a $17-million dollar with the City of Quebec.

[flar]

Quebec's stadium was built in 1970 and holds 10,200 people. I'm sure $17 million will go a long way to upgrading itv to the calibre of Ivor Wynne :haha:

Good luck in Quebec City, I'm sure they have tons of hardcore CFL fans like in Hamilton.

[SteelTown]

http://media.hamiltonspectator.com/acrobat/de/33/c115c041475eb954b746bbbdab26.pdf

[markbarbera]

Wow. The Ticats leave town and the Pan Am stadium is doomed.

Epic fail.

Well done, Mayor Fred! That's city-building for you!

[SteelTown]

Ti Cats made by done but post-Pan Am the stadium needs to be "used for high-performance sport" which can be anything.

[flar]

http://media.hamiltonspectator.com/acrobat/de/33/c115c041475eb954b746bbbdab26.pdf

What a pathetic letter. The Ticats are not done.

Where will the Ticats go? Will they just fold? If so, and if Bob Young cares so much about the Ticats and doesn't want to lose money, why doesn't he put them up for sale?

Is Bob Young willing to throw away all the years of tradition that has bred a solid base of Ticat fans? You can't buy that in Quebec or Halifax, even if those cities had suitable stadiums.

They're really pulling out all the stops. I sincerely hope people don't fall for this latest tactic.

Bob Young is bluffing. We can already see he holds no decent cards. Time to call.

[SteelTown]

Plus the letter shows his real intention, a stadium at Confederation Park.

[AL3000]

I am thoroughly disgusted with the Ticats management behaviour. They are pulling all the stops in their dirty tactics. If they were playing clean, they would actually wait for tomorrow's vote and would then throw this move in protest if it didn't go their way. Instead, they are throwing dirty, childish tantrums in an effort to muddy public and government opinion. I'm sick of Young et al. Go and live long and prosper elsewhere already! Young is using the Ticats and Hamilton as pawns for his own private profit benefit. Disingenuous, IMHO.

[oldcoote]

And Bob Young gives the finger to the city of Hamilton.

Unbelievable. Time to sell the team to someone with vision.

[markbarbera]

Ti Cats made by done but post-Pan Am the stadium needs to be "used for high-performance sport" which can be anything.

A requirement for Federal and Provincial funding is that the stadium be financially viable. Without a tenant, how is it viable?

[Acajack]

He has nowhere to go. The Quebec City talk is bogus. As others have said, the stadium there is way too small and there are currently no serious plans to expand it.

Every single stadium that is remotely suitable for CFL football in Canada (25,000 minimum seats) is either already in use by a club or slated for use by a club (Ottawa).

Bob Young is not exactly Al Davis or Bob Irsay on this one...

[markbarbera]

What a pathetic letter. The Ticats are not done.

Where will the Ticats go? Will they just fold? If so, and if Bob Young cares so much about the Ticats and doesn't want to lose money, why doesn't he put them up for sale?

Is Bob Young willing to throw away all the years of tradition that has bred a solid base of Ticat fans? You can't buy that in Quebec or Halifax, even if those cities had suitable stadiums.

They're really pulling out all the stops. I sincerely hope people don't fall for this latest tactic.

Bob Young is bluffing. We can already see he holds no decent cards. Time to call.

I am thoroughly disgusted with the Ticats management behaviour. They are pulling all the stops in their dirty tactics. If they were playing clean, they would actually wait for tomorrow's vote and would then throw this move in protest if it didn't go their way. Instead, they are throwing dirty, childish tantrums in an effort to muddy public and government opinion. I'm sick of Young et al. Go and live long and prosper elsewhere already! Young is using the Ticats and Hamilton as pawns for his own private profit benefit. Disingenuous, IMHO.

And Bob Young gives the finger to the city of Hamilton.

Unbelievable. Time to sell the team to someone with vision.

Young is moving the Ticats. He is not selling them, he is moving them. And Hamilton has now been blacklisted by the CFL.

Just about every other major league sports organization is sitting up and taking notice that Hamilton is not a good place to set up shop - NHL included (if you listen closely, you can here Bettman saying "See?!? I told you that city is f**ked!!")

When the Ticats play their first game in a renovated PEPS Stadium, will you guys still be claiming Young is bluffing? Geez, I wanna set up a SSP poker game with you all!

[dennis1]

Aca he made the threat didn't

He can get the hell out for all I care

what a fucking baby.

[Janbe]

To all you West Harbour supporters, you lose the TigerCats and the stadium.

[Berklon]

To all you West Harbour supporters, you lose the TigerCats and the stadium.

I'll try to hold back the tears if the Ti-Cats leave. :rolleyes:

The stadium is take it or leave it. Without a team, we dont really need it - so Im fine with no stadium. I don't think it's a big deal at all.

[AL3000]

I'm fine with no stadium as well. Hamilton can spend its money on itself like originally planned. Young has done so much harm in so little time during this stadium fiasco, he will serve the community better if he leaves. Wait, what am I thinking?Bob Young serve the community? My bad.

[SteelTown]

We can do a lot with $60 million. Good chunk of money towards LRT, McMaster campus, replacement for John McDonald, etc.

[Janbe]

Hamilton the city of fuck ups.

[dennis1]

http://www.900chml.com/Other/BobYoungLetterAugust9.pdf

[dennis1]

Janbe its the CFL, its not the end of the world

When is Braley going to sel one of the two franchises he owns.

[AL3000]

The only reason Bob Young has been pulling these childish tantrums and chapters out of the "How to bully a city" handbook is because the writing is on the wall. Mass public opinion has always been and is in favour of WH. The people have spoken and Bob Young refuses to accept the truth. Says a lot about the person's integrity, IME.

If the goeastmountain poll and support numbers as reported even half true, they wouldn't have a worry in the world and could sit back and wait for a vote. Instead, they know full well what time it is. It's Hammer Time!

[realcity]

To all you West Harbour supporters, you lose the TigerCats and the stadium.

ditto ..... but they still think it's a 'bluff'. and resort to name calling no less.

[realcity]

Now the WH supporters don't care if we get a stadium???? But they were so uncompromising in the location?

Also the WH supporters now don't care if we have a CFL team or PanAm Games AT ALL??? But were almost militant in their message. It tells you that this was just RHVP War 2. Not a real debate about sports, a new stadium and Ticats viability.

So IVW will rot away, and sit as a constant reminder of how great Hamilton once was. No new stadium and the end of pro sports in Hamilton (Bulldogs are moving to Quebec at the end of this lease) and we slide even more into obscurity and irrelevance as a city. With fewer amenities that define Hamilton as a real city, we are becoming another part of the faceless, nameless blob that surrounds Toronto.

[dennis1]

Then maybe some people from Toronto will come here with their money then. York Region is getting expensive anyway.

[Janbe]

The TiCats made Hamilton unique. It is apart of Hamilton culture and identity.

[SteelTown]

http://www.thespec.com/article/704705

[oldcoote]

Young is moving the Ticats. He is not selling them, he is moving them. And Hamilton has now been blacklisted by the CFL.

Just about every other major league sports organization is sitting up and taking notice that Hamilton is not a good place to set up shop - NHL included (if you listen closely, you can here Bettman saying "See?!? I told you that city is f**ked!!")

When the Ticats play their first game in a renovated PEPS Stadium, will you guys still be claiming Young is bluffing? Geez, I wanna set up a SSP poker game with you all!

Mark

You drastically over-value the CFL as a league. It's an entertaining game that has been trying to expand for years. They can ill-afford to lose one of their eight existing franchises and alienate an existing fan base.

Over the years, I've heard Quebec City, Halifax, London, Kit-Wat, and Victoria mentioned as destinations for the CFL, but if any of those were viable, the CFL would already have set up shop.

The league cannot afford to be reduced to 7 teams.

Young will (try to) sell the team if it goes to the West Harbour. He's made his bed.

[mattgrande]

The TiCats made Hamilton unique. It is apart of Hamilton culture and identity.

Really, it's the Ti-Cats making Hamilton unique? Not the AGH (http://www.artgalleryofhamilton.com/)? Not the shops on Locke Street (http://www.lockestreet.com/)? Not the James North artist district (http://www.jamesstreetnorth.ca/blog/?page_id=32)? Not Cootes Paradise (http://www.waterfronttrail.org/images/itineraries/2-1/9-CootesAerialOblique.jpg)? Not the escarpment (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/HamiltonOntarioSkylineC.JPG)?

No, you're right. I guess having a semi-professional sports team like every other city is more unique than that.

[flar]

Seriously guys, the Ticats are not moving. If you don't want to call it a bluff, than call it a game of brinksmanship.

[realcity]

Really, it's the Ti-Cats making Hamilton unique? Not the AGH (http://www.artgalleryofhamilton.com/)? Not the shops on Locke Street (http://www.lockestreet.com/)? Not the James North artist district (http://www.jamesstreetnorth.ca/blog/?page_id=32)? Not Cootes Paradise (http://www.waterfronttrail.org/images/itineraries/2-1/9-CootesAerialOblique.jpg)? Not the escarpment (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/HamiltonOntarioSkylineC.JPG)?

No, you're right. I guess having a semi-professional sports team like every other city is more unique than that.

Yes the Cats have made Hamilton unique... It's one piece of many. And now one less piece. Thank gawd for Cootes Paradise if that could be moved it would be in Toronto by now.

My how the tone has changed on this thread. Now it's a thread about how unimportant the Cats and the Stadium is. wow. just wow!

[LikeHamilton]

I know I am breaking the rules but this is important!

Young backs out of Pan Am negotiations
TheSpec.com - BreakingNews - Young backs out of Pan Am negotiations

The Hamilton Tiger-Cats are backing out of the Pan Am stadium.

TiCats owner Bob Young issued an aggressive letter this afternoon talking about the team’s “last days at Ivor Wynne.”

He says after next year, “there will be no home for Hamilton Tiger-Cats in the city where we shared so much success and positive experiences together.”

Young has previously threatened to move the team from Hamilton, but the letter issued this afternoon does not categorically state the team is leaving. A Ticat source says while moving the team to another Canadian city is an option, there is no deal in place to move the team to Quebec City or Ottawa at this time. Cats president Scott Mitchell refused to comment further, saying “the statement speaks for itself” and he “will not be, nor will anybody else be commenting further.”

Young says Eisenberger’s refusal to adopt the east mountain site that ultimately pushed the team away from negotiations.

“You remain fixated on the West Harbour Stadium and without a strong political champion in Hamilton, it is impossible to continue our efforts with respect to the East Mountain proposal,” the letter reads.

“As such, I cannot be part of a process that destines us to financial failure before the first shovel goes in the ground. As owner of the Tiger-Cats, I cannot and will not be party to such an ill-advised concept.”

Young has threatened to move the team from Hamilton, but the letter issued this afternoon does not categorically say the team is leaving. A Ticat source says while moving the team to another Canadian city is an option, there is no deal in place to move the team to Quebec City or Ottawa at this time. Cats president Scott Mitchell refused to comment further, saying “the statement speaks for itself” and he “will not be, nor will anybody else be commenting further.”

Calls to Eisenberger, MPP Sophia Aggelonitis, and Pan Am CEO Ian Troop have yet to be returned.

Watch thespec.com for more updates.

http://www.thespec.ca/News/BreakingNews/article/822979

[flar]

Here's the thing:

Let's say the city chooses to build at the West Harbour.

Will there be another city/stadium in Canada that will be more economically viable?

Ottawa is the only city bigger than Hamilton without a team. They are also getting a new stadium but they already have an ownership group that has been promised a team.

Quebec City has a 40 year old university stadium that holds 10,200 in a smaller market than the Hamilton area.

Halifax is a much, much smaller market.

Moncton is a small town that doesn't even merit serious discussion.

London, Ontario also has no stadium large enough and again, has a smaller market than Hamilton.

6 of the 7 other teams in the CFL lose money.

Hamilton has a solid fan base, tradition, funding for a brand new stadium and is the largest CFL market available in Canada. Bob Young is just trying to get the best deal for himself.

[oldcoote]

The hilarious thing is that he announces he's "backing out" the day before the vote.

Interesting timing, that.

[markbarbera]

Mayor Fred's new legacy:


Ended the city's 141-year relationship with the Ticats
With no tenant, squanders the opportunity for a new Pan Am Stadium and related events in Hamilton
His 'unflapping' commitment to the West Harbour leaves it empty and contaminated
Blacklists this city from being considered for any future major sporting event like the Commonwealth Games


I now know where my vote is not going in October. Me and half of the city by the looks of it.

Every time I think this city has had its most inept mayor, another one comes along to take the title. Well done, Freddie boy!

[markbarbera]

If the goeastmountain poll and support numbers as reported even half true, they wouldn't have a worry in the world and could sit back and wait for a vote. Instead, they know full well what time it is. It's Hammer Time!

According to the city's own polling (http://media.hamiltonspectator.com/acrobat/17/51/3ffbe6374f10b3c49b95841e3bb3.doc), the support numbers are bang-on. Mayor Fred has managed to divide this city on an issue that should have been a unifying source of pride. What a monumental cock-up!

[flar]

overreact much?

Fred could have managed this better from the beginning, but the blame lies squarely with Bob Young, a billionaire trying to circumvent the democratic process and divert tax money to his private interests.

[Jon Dalton]

When the Ticats play their first game in a renovated PEPS Stadium, will you guys still be claiming Young is bluffing? Geez, I wanna set up a SSP poker game with you all!

I'm down for an SSP poker game! I'll host, BYOB. Who else is in?

[AL3000]

Also the WH supporters now don't care if we have a CFL team or PanAm Games AT ALL??? But were almost militant in their message. It tells you that this was just RHVP War 2. Not a real debate about sports, a new stadium and Ticats viability.

Ultimatums tend to kill any debate.

[Blurr]

What Bob Young has to understand is that the city putting money into any CFL stadium is a horrible investment.

Given that the CFL economics suck, the city throwing away money should at least be granted the decision to where the stadium is put and work towards their master plan.

But he owns a CFL team, so he stopped making money a long time ago. Nothing is changing Bob... why are you so upset.

Sure it would be great if the cats could stay and pay their bills, and make an economic impact to the city, but the fact of the matter is they don't. There future economic impact will be even lower than it is now, and certainly lower that the past 10 years.

It cant be understated how uneconomical the stadium will be.

[realcity]

Mayor Fred's new legacy:


Ended the city's 141-year relationship with the Ticats
With no tenant, squanders the opportunity for a new Pan Am Stadium and related events in Hamilton
His 'unflapping' commitment to the West Harbour leaves it empty and contaminated
Blacklists this city from being considered for any future major sporting event like the Commonwealth Games


I now know where my vote is not going in October. Me and half of the city by the looks of it.

Every time I think this city has had its most inept mayor, another one comes along to take the title. Well done, Freddie boy!

- Century Theatre collapse, forces citizens to do what we already pay taxes to do
- Balfour Building collapses
- Siemens/Westinghouse closes
- McMaster nixes it's downtown campus for a suburban-styled business park
- Tivoli still sits empty
- Scott Park vacant
- HMP torn down for a parking lot
- Former Federal bldg sits empty
- Royal Connaught group takes $4m in grants and closes the former glorious hotel
- Tape-gate
- head of city grants is charged with felony kick backs
- Stelco and Dofasco become pwned
- poverty increases, job loses increase in contrast to the rest of the province
- can't maintain council decorum
- divisive split between urban/suburban councilors
- gets Randle Reef funding but can't come up with the city's one-third portion
- Lakeport
- 3 new Power Centres built on the fringes
- no resolve to area-rating


Lots to campaign on.

[realcity]

Ultimatums tend to kill any debate.

So do emotions when they cloud judgement

[flar]

Let's all take a deep breath and think about this rationally. Bob Young is appealing to emotion, and it seems to be working.

I really can't figure out where this magical city is that will build a $100+ million stadium and serve as a superior CFL market than Hamilton.

Will he fold the team because he's not getting his way? I bet someone else would be willing to buy the team and play in the WH.


I ask again:


Will there be another city/stadium in Canada that will be more economically viable?

Ottawa is the only city bigger than Hamilton without a team. They are also getting a new stadium but they already have an ownership group that has been promised a team.

Quebec City has a 40 year old university stadium that holds 10,200 in a smaller market than the Hamilton area.

Halifax is a much, much smaller market.

Moncton is a small town that doesn't even merit serious discussion.

London, Ontario also has no stadium large enough and again, has a smaller market than Hamilton.

6 of the 7 other teams in the CFL lose money.

Hamilton has a solid fan base, tradition, funding for a brand new stadium and is the largest CFL market available in Canada. Bob Young is just trying to get the best deal for himself.

[markbarbera]

Ultimatums tend to kill any debate.

Both Bob Young and Mayor Fred are guilty of issuing 'my way or the highway' ultimatums. The difference being, in a democratic society, the Mayor of a city is expected to engage in consensus building, not to engage in a dogmatic battle of wills. This unnecessary exercise has left the city divided, it has left the city losing its only major sports franchise, and it has squandered any chance of a new stadium being built here for the Pan Am Games (along with all the federal and provincial funding dollars and the jobs the construction would have created). Moreover its reputation has been sullied in the eyes of other professional sports leagues and organizers of international sporting events. The damage is deep and lasting.

[SteelTown]

Statement from City of Hamilton releasing Angus Reid Survey
http://media.hamiltonspectator.com/acrobat/17/51/3ffbe6374f10b3c49b95841e3bb3.doc

Chart - Angus Reid Survey results
http://media.hamiltonspectator.com/acrobat/ae/d2/86839a684a389ca8d5d4614ac0f7.xls

[SteelTown]

I know I am breaking the rules but this is important!

Just wanted to let you know that what you posted is perfectly acceptable. Commentary articles are different, such as Paul Wilson and Andrew Dreschel's articles.

[SteelTown]

Again Bob Bratina said there will be a big announcement tomorrow for the West Harbour.

Perhaps Bob Young realized Katz is serious and decided to give up. If Council votes for East Mountain Bob Young still said he won't accept it.

[flar]

Here's the first response to rumours of the move to Quebec in the Quebec forum:

Ils joueraient où? On a pas plus de stade apte pour recevoir une équipe de la LCF?!

and the second:

C'est dur à croire, on a pas d'infrastructure !!

http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/Sports/football/2010/08/09/14970731.html

They will play where? Is there no more suitable stadium for a CFL team?
Hard to believe, there's no infrastructure!

[Berklon]

I can't believe some of the people on here are falling for what Bob Young says - regardless if he's bluffing or not.

Bob Young and the CFL have no arsenal in this war. There's nowhere to move the team that will not hurt the CFL. Moving the Ticats is a step down for the league. They'll either have 7 teams with the Cats folding, or 8 teams with a major market gone and playing out of a pathetically small stadium.

As already mentioned, if a team in Quebec City was such a good idea - it would've been done already. Jesus, the league has had only 8 teams for a long time - they could've used another franchise badly and still didn't get a new one set up. One person owns 2 teams in this 8 team league. 2 teams! That's embarrassing. Does it really feel like Bob Young/CFL have the upper hand here?

We're supposed to sacrifice the future of this city for a team that's "lost money consistently since the 1960's" in a league as bush as this? Really? Is this really worth it?

[dennis1]

Where's bigguy.

We need him to demolish IWS tommorrow night.

[dennis1]

I can't believe some of the people on here are falling for what Bob Young says - regardless if he's bluffing or not.

Bob Young and the CFL have no arsenal in this war. There's nowhere to move the team that will not hurt the CFL. Moving the Ticats is a step down for the league. They'll either have 7 teams with the Cats folding, or 8 teams with a major market gone and playing out of a pathetically small stadium.

As already mentioned, if a team in Quebec City was such a good idea - it would've been done already. Jesus, the league has had only 8 teams for a long time - they could've used another franchise badly and still didn't get a new one set up. One person owns 2 teams in this 8 team league. 2 teams! That's embarrassing. Does it really feel like Bob Young/CFL have the upper hand here?

We're supposed to sacrifice the future of this city for a team that's "lost money consistently since the 1960's" in a league as bush as this? Really? Is this really worth it?

Exactly!

....

[thurmas]

It's a real shame that it's come to this but hamilton is just not a very good sports town never has been they have always been last or near last in cfl attendance since the 70's, the bulldogs draw terrible attendance even though they always have very good teams. With the comments of many on this issue most of you seem to like to ridicule the ti-cats and the cfl and have no interest in the leagus. It seems this club would do better in another market such as quebec where football is flourishing or ottawa which usually had better attendance than the ti-cats during some very horrible years.What I could see is either quebec building a new stadium for cfl since they are planing a 2022 winter olympic bid and would need a stadium for opening and closing ceremonies.Or ottawa could switch from being an expansion club to just picking up the ticats when frank clair stadium is ready.

[dennis1]

You don't need a big stadium for the Winter Olympics.

(Why are you here? Get lost)

[thurmas]

every modern winter olympics has had a decent sized stadium for opening ceremonies and 25,000 is not a big stadium.dennis your full of it you either want the ticats to stay or to leave you can't have it both ways!

[Migs]

What is the matter with you people? Not only are you going to lose a Canadian institution in the Ticats, but you are also going to lose a worldclass stadium too boot. How goofy is that? And the CFL is not the economical anchor that some of you suggest, attendance is high, TV ratings are skyrocketing, and merchandising is at an alltime high (that is why all cities are either buidling new facilities or putting millions into renovations). Get off your asses and organize a rally at cityhall and save one of the only things that puts Hamilton on the map. At least Ottawa city council learned their lesson......

[thurmas]

just think once the ti-cats leave hamilton will have a vacant rotting ivor wynn, a west harbour with no stadium or anything just rotting chemical waste.No new stadium at all since the pan am games couldn't put up with hamilton's b.s. and of all places Toronto gets a new stadium to revitalize the argonauts of all teams, and a bulldogs team that is very good with still no fans showing up.

[dennis1]

They will use the new indoor stadium for that. The one for the return of the Nordiques.

Again you are not from hamilton nor are you a ticats fan so get the hell out.

[dennis1]

Buddy all the events will be moved to varsity and york university. The argos are not moving to north york. Any new stadium will be for the NFL, or at least that's what Torontonians tell me.

[dennis1]

What is the matter with you people? Not only are you going to lose a Canadian institution in the Ticats, but you are also going to lose a worldclass stadium too boot. How goofy is that? And the CFL is not the economical anchor that some of you suggest, attendance is high, TV ratings are skyrocketing, and merchandising is at an alltime high (that is why all cities are either buidling new facilities or putting millions into renovations). Get off your asses and organize a rally at cityhall and save one of the only things that puts Hamilton on the map. At least Ottawa city council learned their lesson......

Honestly this is less about the CFL and more about corporate welfare. The CFL shots are from emotion and nothing else.

[AL3000]

What is interesting is that with all the threats and rhetoric to date, right up to this afternoon, with HostCo being called the final deciding and over ruling vote, what would Bob Young have to fear with the Hamilton council vote? Even if it didn't go his way. The way they were all talking was like they had the power and influence to over rule any Hamilton decision. So what gives? What's with this latest desperation spectacle?

[realcity]

dennis1-- stop telling people to get lost because you don't agree with their post. That's why it is called is a discussion forum -- multiple points of view.


Migs, thurmas glad to have your perspective. You don't even live here and are shaking your heads in disbelief.... try living here...

[markbarbera]

What is interesting is that with all the threats and rhetoric to date, right up to this afternoon, with HostCo being called the final deciding and over ruling vote, what would Bob Young have to fear with the Hamilton council vote? Even if it didn't go his way. The way they were all talking was like they had the power and influence to over rule any Hamilton decision. So what gives? What's with this latest desperation spectacle?

Hostco cannot overrule the location of the stadium within the city. That's for council to choose. Of course there are consequences for any decision.

What Hostco can do is decide against placing a stadium in Hamilton if they no longer see it as feasible (i.e. no anchor tenant post-Games). So Bob sees the writing on the wall - the city is refusing anything but WH, and Young's Ticats cannot turn a profit playing there. So off they go. What's next for Hamilton? Hostco will relocate the stadium altogether - as a track facility in North York.

[dennis1]

Sorry realcity. This guy was just taunting me yesterday and made me say a couple things I didn't want to. He can't even type well.

Anyway, this is about Young and not the CFL as a whole.

[flar]

Young's Ticats cannot turn a profit playing there.

You keep repeating this as if it were truth. The truth is Bob Young doesn't get a 7000 space parking lot at the West Harbour. And it's in Hamilton.* And it's near Barton St! Hamilton has a stigma. People who are in favour of the WH want to get rid of the stigma. That's it. Young is just following all the standard business advice, which is that you can't make money in Hamilton. I don't think anyone has given Hamilton a shot. Since this is subsidized by the taxpayers, let's give Hamilton a chance. I'm confident that the Ticats can make WH work. They want to take the easy way and have the big parking lot. We shouldn't let them do it on our dime.




*The East Mountain is not "in" Hamilton. It's in Generic, Ontario. It might as well be in Mississauga.

[dennis1]

Hostco cannot overrule the location of the stadium within the city. That's for council to choose. Of course there are consequences for any decision.

What Hostco can do is decide against placing a stadium in Hamilton if they no longer see it as feasible (i.e. no anchor tenant post-Games). So Bob sees the writing on the wall - the city is refusing anything but WH, and Young's Ticats cannot turn a profit playing there. So off they go. What's next for Hamilton? Hostco will relocate the stadium altogether - as a track facility in North York.

Hostco, I thought, had the final say?

[dennis1]

Who says the TiCats will make money in the EM or WH, we are second last in attendance, how will that change that?

[SteelTown]

“I’m disappointed in the tactics the Ticats are using,” Eisenberger said. “These are ultimatum tactics. They’re basically asking us to choose between a stadium and a football team and that’s not right.”

Eisenberger, who is running for re-election this fall, wants the new facility to be located in the West Harbour area to help rejuvenate the city’s downtown core.

“The Ticats are not respecting the democratic process and I think this letter shows they are worried about what the outcome of the council (vote) may be,” Eisenberger said.

“But nobody knows what’s going to happen. Council has not yet seen the final report (on the stadium issue), so why pre-empt the process?”

Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/Hamilton+Ticats+owner+threatens+move+team/3378504/story.html#ixzz0wA69Ra1e

[thurmas]

dennis just cuz some guys from toronto tell you nfl is coming to toronto you believe it.nobody is going to spend close to a $1 billion to spend on a new stadium for a non existent nfl team.as to my typing who cares this is skyscraperpage not an essay for an exam.

[dennis1]

$1 Billion huh? Where the hell did you get that number from?

Minneapolis is fighting over whether or not to pay $850 mil for theirs.

And why would Toronto pay $250 mil for a CFL team?

[dennis1]

dennis just cuz some guys from toronto tell you nfl is coming to toronto you believe it.nobody is going to spend close to a $1 billion to spend on a new stadium for a non existent nfl team.as to my typing who cares this is skyscraperpage not an essay for an exam.

And you would fail that shit too so why bring it up?

[Urban_Genius]

Hamilton is about to become just another suburb in the GTA for most Canadians. Out of all the CFL cities, Hamilton has the smallest spotlight (largely due to the fact it's considered Toronto's suburb). Anyways, I was looking forward to going to a Grey Cup in the Hammer. Instead, Hamilton will get (if it get's built) a 15000 un-occupuied stadium. It's a shame that both sides couldn't compromise.

In the end the CFL won't be the same without the Hammer, but won't miss it either. Maybe likewise, for Hamilton.

[flar]

You guys from out of town need to consider two things:

1. Everything in Hamilton turns into a huge fiasco. I've lived in a few cities and nobody does things like in Hamilton.

2. Sports teams threaten to relocate as part of negotiations for their share of corporate welfare. Usually Hamilton is the place they threaten to relocate to.

[dennis1]

Hamilton is about to become just another suburb in the GTA for most Canadians. Out of all the CFL cities, Hamilton has the smallest spotlight (largely due to the fact it's considered Toronto's suburb). Anyways, I was looking forward to going to a Grey Cup in the Hammer. Instead, Hamilton will get (if it get's built) a 15000 un-occupuied stadium. It's a shame that both sides couldn't compromise.

In the end the CFL won't be the same without the Hammer, but won't miss it either. Maybe likewise, for Hamilton.

Probably. It sad all around but what can you do really?

[markbarbera]

Hostco, I thought, had the final say?

Hostco has final say on venue locations in the sense that they say 'we want to build a stadium in Hamilton, do you have a location', the city says "Yes, at Barton and Tiffany". Hostco asks 'is there a legacy tenant?' Hamilton says "No", and Hostco says "well that doesn't meet our requirements, we'll go to a different city"

Hostco cannot force a specific location in a city against their will, but they can choose to locate in a different city. By pulling track out of the city, Hostco was more or less gearing up for this scenario anyway.

[markbarbera]

“I’m disappointed in the tactics the Ticats are using,” Eisenberger said. “These are ultimatum tactics. They’re basically asking us to choose between a stadium and a football team and that’s not right.”

Eisenberger, who is running for re-election this fall, wants the new facility to be located in the West Harbour area to help rejuvenate the city’s downtown core.

“The Ticats are not respecting the democratic process and I think this letter shows they are worried about what the outcome of the council (vote) may be,” Eisenberger said.

“But nobody knows what’s going to happen. Council has not yet seen the final report (on the stadium issue), so why pre-empt the process?”

Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/Hamilton+Ticats+owner+threatens+move+team/3378504/story.html#ixzz0wA69Ra1e

Fred's such a hypocritical twat. Was he respecting the process when secretly wheeling and dealing with Katz in that failed attempt to do an end-run around Young? Was he respecting the process when he refused to consider any of the ten locations suggested by Young during the facilitation process? Was he respecting the process when he chants his "nowhere but West Harbour" mantra? No, no and no.

Eisenberger set the tone early on, then has the nerve to cry foul now. Jerk.

Baldasaro for mayor, cause a pot-head for mayor's gotta be better than this. Sure can't get worse.

[dennis1]

What if Braley moves the Argos to Hamilton? Has no one thought of that?

[markbarbera]

Why would he? Where would he put them? Braley was one of the first to (privately) say West Harbour is a bad location for a stadium.

Even if he wanted to, the CFL commisioner says if the Ticats leave, Hamilton is frozen out of the CFL.

[dennis1]

Braley is the major money man though.

[mattgrande]

East Mountain supporters: Do you think the Ti-Cats can make a profit there, considering they haven't made a profit in years while paying no rent? Maintaining the stadium is going to be an extra $3M+ per year cutting into their bottom line... Do you think that the East Mountain site will bring them an extra $300,000 per game?

Also, everyone keeps talking about "compromise," but there's no such thing as a compromise when you're debating two sites. It's one or the other.

**EDIT** - Just re-read Bobby's letter. He notes that they are "without a strong political champion" in city hall. Does anyone else remember how excited everyone in council was over the EM site when it was first brought up as a possibility? It seemed for sure that the stadium would end up there. Then, over the weeks that followed, almost every Councillor either stopped talking about it publicly or went back to supporting the West Harbour. Maybe that's because the East Mountain site doesn't make sense for Hamilton, and they know it.


We note that even in the city’s own report, that without a tenant you are well beyond $60 million dollars short of building a 25,000 seat facility.


Well, it's a good thing we only need a 15,000 seat stadium now! (if we need one at all...)

[thurmas]

dennis, the vikings are talking about a stadium in the mid $950 million range plus factoring in the average cost to buy an nfl team is close to $1 billion that's almost $2 billion on a football team. No one in their right mind would pay that. Where do you get $250 million for an argos stadium.Anyways it's your citiy's loss not mine and I have had enough of your bullshit, go hump jack layton before he's gone!

[Acajack]

Even if he wanted to, the CFL commisioner says if the Ticats leave, Hamilton is frozen out of the CFL.

I do not believe this either. The CFL needs as many cities as it can get that have a suitable stadium and want teams. As long as Ivor Wynne remains standing, Hamilton will remain a choice CFL club location. Regardless of what happens with Bob Young in the near future.

BTW, it has mostly been stadium issues that have prevented the CFL from expanding to places like Quebec City and Halifax. If these cities were like U.S. cities of similar size and had existing stadiums that were of decent size, they'd already be in the league by now.

It's not because there isn't interest, but rather because Canada doesn't have a culture of building even modest-sized sports venues in many of its cities.

And it is precisely this fact that has caused this Hamilton situation. The future of the Ti-Cats apparently hinges on a new home built using the excuse of a one-time international sporting event that has nothing to do with the Ti-Cats. Canadian football or anything remotely close to it.

I may seem to be contradicting myself because I think using Pan Am to get a new stadium for the Ti-Cats is the right approach, but only because so many times in Canada it is impossible to get any sports facility built unless you have the perfect storm of timing that gives you the excuse you need to just get it done.

Isn't it odd how you can spend public funds on a stadium for an event that will last, what, a week at the most, and which will attract only passing attention from the local population, and nobody bats an eye because the country, province and city have to look good internationally.

But spend the same amount on a stadium for a professional sports team that will be used several times a year over several decades, mostly by locals, and there is a big hue and cry.

You see the same thing in Moncton with the new stadium there. People would freak if they spent that money on a CFL stadium, which is ironic because the city would get much more use out of it probably.

Unless they are converted for domestic league use, most large facilities built for international sporting events sit empty most of the time.

[BCTed]

Again Bob Bratina said there will be a big announcement tomorrow for the West Harbour.

Perhaps Bob Young realized Katz is serious and decided to give up. If Council votes for East Mountain Bob Young still said he won't accept it.

What does Katz have to do with anything?

[Anders Knudsen]

vote for East Mountain: no future fund, Ticats stay in town and break even and contribute nothing to the city, west harbour proposal gets forgotten because there's no money, no big box gets built on the east mountain, no revenue increase for the city.

vote for West Harbour: either: Ticats stay and break even or lose money and contribute nothing to the city, future fund severely depleted, eyesore removed, Canadians see that Hamilton has a beautiful waterfront, or: Ticats leave, and: stadium gets cancelled, future fund intact or: 15,000 stadium is built, future fund dented, eyesore removed, national soccer training centre established. Big box built on Mountain in all these cases and city revenues increase.

At the moment there is no third option, but lets see what tomorrow brings.

So if you support an East Mountain stadium because you love the Cats and could care less about downtown or the future fund, keep going. But if you either oppose a stadium, support Harbour remediation, think the Cats are bluffing, or think the Cats should be accountable to the people paying for their stadium, then the harbour`s the choice. This is not a very attractive dichotomy and I hope another option reveals itself tomorrow, but it`s clear that the Mountain only delivers one thing and we have to pay dearly for that.

[dennis1]

dennis, the vikings are talking about a stadium in the mid $950 million range plus factoring in the average cost to buy an nfl team is close to $1 billion that's almost $2 billion on a football team. No one in their right mind would pay that. Where do you get $250 million for an argos stadium.Anyways it's your citiy's loss not mine and I have had enough of your bullshit, go hump jack layton before he's gone!

Really then why is Roski saying $875 million for Los Angelees?

Jack Layton has cancer you shithead so leave him out of this. I already told you that and for some reason you can't fucking get it. And I was talking about provincial politics.

Toronto land is expensive you douche so of course it will cost more. I am sure the saints and jaguars will not cost $1 billion dipshit.

citiy's

What the hell is this?

[dennis1]

What does Katz have to do with anything?

They think he might give the $100m

[mattgrande]

vote for East Mountain: no future fund, Ticats stay in town and break even and contribute nothing to the city, west harbour proposal gets forgotten because there's no money, no big box gets built on the east mountain, no revenue increase for the city.

vote for West Harbour: either: Ticats stay and break even or lose money and contribute nothing to the city, future fund severely depleted, eyesore removed, Canadians see that Hamilton has a beautiful waterfront, or: Ticats leave, and: stadium gets cancelled, future fund intact or: 15,000 stadium is built, future fund dented, eyesore removed, national soccer training centre established. Big box built on Mountain in all these cases and city revenues increase.

At the moment there is no third option, but lets see what tomorrow brings.

So if you support an East Mountain stadium because you love the Cats and could care less about downtown or the future fund, keep going. But if you either oppose a stadium, support Harbour remediation, think the Cats are bluffing, or think the Cats should be accountable to the people paying for their stadium, then the harbour`s the choice. This is not a very attractive dichotomy and I hope another option reveals itself tomorrow, but it`s clear that the Mountain only delivers one thing and we have to pay dearly for that.

Except we don't have the money for the EM without the Future Fund, so Future Fund is depleted in either option. On top of that, I'm almost certain the Cats will continue to lose money, regardless of location.

[dennis1]

Ken Welsh just said on CH news at 11 o'clock words to the effect that

Relations between Mayor Fred and the "caretaker" went sour

right after Mayor Fred publicly revealed that he was setting up
a memorandum of understanding with the Katz/AEG Group

to manage the City's hoped for stadium at the West Harbour

in the middle of the facilitation process. What a slap in the face!

Who among us, other than Captain Kirk, can conceive of

Bob getting a fair deal on the lease for their stadium,
food concessions, parking, and stadium naming rights

with the worshipper of all things NHL Mayor Fred
and a shrewd businessman, NHL owner Daryl Katz?

Anyways, bob's experts rated the West Harbour land
as the very worst of all the stadium sites the looked at,

so why in the name of the baby Jesus would bob

even consider locating his business at that site?

This was about Katz and the NHL. The TiCats where scared of the NHL coming here.

[Migs]

Come on Hamilton, get it together. Without the Ticats you guys are just another Burlington or Missisauga. Everyone throughout Canada identifies with your city because of the Ticats and it would be a tragedy if the team moved simply because of arrogance and stubbornness shown by those in place of power. I really hope that true Ticat fans show up at Cityhall speak their minds. I know if there was a similar situation going on in Regina, thousands would be outside cityhall with pitchforks demanding that those in power come to their senses..

[dennis1]

Migs that would never happen. The Riders are owned by you and many others from SK.

[Jon Dalton]

I really hope that true Ticat fans show up at Cityhall speak their minds. I know if there was a similar situation going on in Regina, thousands would be outside cityhall with pitchforks demanding that those in power come to their senses..

If anyone is angry about this they should be angry at Scott Mitchell for pulling his last minute bullshit tactics. The City was putting up $45M towards the stadium - this is an offer to the Ticats. The City is the single biggest investor. Mitchell was the one who refused to compromise. The EM site is not a compromise - it's even worse for the City's objectives than any of the original alternative sites. If anyone shows up tomorrow with pitchforks they're going to leave with them up their asses because there's more City of Hamilton fans with a right to be angry.

[dennis1]

Pro Sports is not the be all end all of life people.

[realcity]

What if Braley moves the Argos to Hamilton? Has no one thought of that?

Braley already owned the Cats. Why doesn't he still own them is the question?

[c@taract_soulj@h]

The Argos wouldn't move to Hamilton...ever...nor would we welcome them. They'd taint the city as we all know where they originally came from and in addition, the Labour Day classic will be dead as it may already be after next year...unfortunately, I'm already 98% sure after this major flounder. The bluff? I don't know about that...the NHL could magically come to Hamilton just like Bob Young could magically be kidding...but I'm not too sure this time. It's becoming a fad to do things the wrong way and cry wolf in the Hammer when it becomes much too late to do so.

I've been an optimist from the beginning as I didn't really care where a stadium was, just as long as I knew there was going to be football in Hamilton at the beginning of next season. I'm saddened to assume that a select few on city council would probably be happy we're without a football team now, knowing we can save and spend money on other bad decisions. How awfully optimistic of me since I've been so, through the start but doing this to the city hurts all of us in someway...bigtime.

I kind of shrugged it off at first but the more I thought about it, I'm showing less and less respect for city hall and the continuously wasted opportunities we've blown. Fuck Toronto...we're a city of our own as the Tiger Cats over the decades made us who we are as a city and differed us from the GTA and other parts of Canada. They can have the stadium, the athletes, the spotlight and the goddamn money.

Dofasco's motto was once "Our product is steel, our strength is people, our home is Hamilton" - no part of that sentence holds true anymore. I recently enjoyed a trip to Halifax and said what would interest me even more to move down there was if they had some sort of professional team...maybe I'll get my wish.

Rest in peace Tiger-Cats

So how about that BRT line?

:shrug:

[bigguy1231]

What is the matter with you people? Not only are you going to lose a Canadian institution in the Ticats, but you are also going to lose a worldclass stadium too boot. How goofy is that? And the CFL is not the economical anchor that some of you suggest, attendance is high, TV ratings are skyrocketing, and merchandising is at an alltime high (that is why all cities are either buidling new facilities or putting millions into renovations). Get off your asses and organize a rally at cityhall and save one of the only things that puts Hamilton on the map. At least Ottawa city council learned their lesson......

First of all we are not going to lose anything. The Ticats have nowhere else to go. There is no other city with a stadium that is suitable and Ottawa already has an ownership group in place for an expansion franchise. If any other city wanted a franchise they would have already approached the league and started work on a stadium.

The stadium being proposed is far from a world class facility, it will only have 20,000 seats.

The CFL might be a big thing out where you live but here it is relegated to a second class sport. Don't get me wrong, we are passionate supporters of the Ticats but if they left they would not be missed. We just have so much else to choose from sports wise that most of the population doesn't give the CFL a second thought. It's not the only game in town like it is in Regina.