What do people in hamilton prefer?

[dennis1]

What do you guys prefer? Your own metro or joining with Toronto?
Just for refrence
Haldimand County (45,212)
Norfolk County(62,563)
Brant County (34,415)
Brantford City (90,192)
RM Niagara(427,421)
Hamilton (504, 559)
Total: 1,164,362

or

GTA (with other parts of Toronto CMA) (5,641,648)
Hamilton (504, 559)
Total:6,146,207

[LikeHamilton]

On our own! Want nothing to do with hog town! :hell:

[dennis1]

On our own! Want nothing to do with hog town! :hell:

Why?

[Jon Dalton]

I will attempt to answer this why at least on a psychological level. The small contingent of Hamilton residents who take interest in our city's built form are people who value traditional urban design. We see the downtown core as the centre of our universe and the place of highest social and economic importance. It follows that it should be full of services, amenities, places of employment, and all types of people. I don't mean to speak for anyone else here, but I'm sure many will agree.

Being part of Toronto's metro positions us as not the centre of our own jurisdiction, but the most far flung suburb of another. This renders our own central business district at best a satellite downtown of Toronto's, like Mississauga City Centre.

In reality I suppose it doesn't matter much as the gravitational pull of Toronto has and will have its effect regardless. Many of our residents commute there leaving our own downtown emptier. We're the last stop of their transportation network, whereas 100 years ago we were the centre of our own. You just can't fight demographics.

[matt602]

Even as a born and raised Torontonian, I believe Hamilton should be on the other side of the Western limit of the GTA. Hamilton is it's own city, not a bedroom community. We have our own university, many colleges, hospitals and a strong business/manufacturing sector. Hamilton isn't some sprawl town suburb like Burlington, Oakville, Brampton, Oshawa, York Region, etc. In the same vein I'd also like to see Mississauga become more of it's own city, but I can't see that happening as long as the sprawl continues.

[dennis1]

I tend actually agree with you guys. Being the centre of a area that includes Niagara and Brantford could actually be better as it will give Hamilton independence and prominence.

[adam]

Every single Torontonian I've met who has visited Hamilton has the same thing to say... "wow, I didn't know Hamilton had so much potential.." or "what a great urban area, with a little TLC it could be a great place" or "why does everything close downtown at 5pm?"

Contrast this with what I hear from Hamiltonians and people from smaller cities around Hamilton "downtown is scary" or "downtown is terrible, traffic is terrible"

[flar]

Hamilton would get screwed and neglected if it was amalgamated with Toronto.

[adam]

Hamilton has been screwed and neglected for 40 years while Toronto has grown into a world class city during that time.

[urban_planner]

Whats Toronto, All kidding a side. This can't happen ever. If anything I think burlington should become absorbed into us like the do with Housing stats etc. I don't think we will ever become a toronto borough.

[MsMe]

Hamilton would get screwed and neglected if it was amalgamated with Toronto.

Agree. And how much would that cost us taxpayers in the longrun to be part of the name "Toronto"?

[drpgq]

Hamilton has been screwed and neglected for 40 years while Toronto has grown into a world class city during that time.

Hamilton has been screwed (as have the other areas mentioned in the first post) by increasing forces of centralization into the nexus of Toronto, both commercial and government. Hell we don't even have our own bank, whereas practically every podunk place in the U.S. does. Plus look at the huge number of Ontario government employees on the $100,000 list that just came out. Where are a huge proportion of them located? Downtown Toronto.

People sometimes ask me why I'm against increased public sector spending. Part of it is that I have a bit of a libertarian bent, but part of it is that I love Hamilton and increased public sector spending drains the life away from communities like Hamilton over time and increases the primacy of capitals like Toronto and Ottawa.

[emge]

What do you guys prefer? Your own metro or joining with Toronto?

*facepalm*

[ryan_mcgreal]

Hamilton is it's own city, not a bedroom community. We have our own university, many colleges, hospitals and a strong business/manufacturing sector. Hamilton isn't some sprawl town suburb like Burlington, Oakville, Brampton, Oshawa, York Region, etc.

In a cultural/political sense, you're right. Hamilton is a distinct place, and our goal as citizens should be to cultivate Hamilton's distinction as a desirable community and a destination in its own right.

But in a strictly economic sense, it's more complex. Richard Florida argues that Hamilton is part of a mega-region that stretches from Toronto to Buffalo (determined through the ingenious method of mapping contiguously lighted areas visible from satellite photos taken at night) and that our economic success is broadly tied to the success of the region as a whole - a region of which Toronto is unquestionably at the wheel, economically speaking.

That's not to say Hamilton can't carve out an important and distinct niche within that larger regional economy. I still believe we should be focusing our energies on cultivating Richard Gilbert's vision of Hamilton as a centre of innovation for energy conservation and production.

Let Toronto have finance: we'll never beat them at their game, so let's cultivate our own game.

Hell we don't even have our own bank, whereas practically every podunk place in the U.S. does.

That's mainly a function of different banking rules between the US and Canada. Thanks to decades of smart, sensible regulation, Canada is widely regarded to have the best banking system in the world - even if it is dominated by the Big Five, which have proven remarkably resilient against the crises, panics and runs that regularly cripple banks in the US and Europe.

Plus look at the huge number of Ontario government employees on the $100,000 list that just came out. Where are a huge proportion of them located? Downtown Toronto.

Not surprising, since that's where the Ontario Legislature is located.

People sometimes ask me why I'm against increased public sector spending. Part of it is that I have a bit of a libertarian bent, but part of it is that I love Hamilton and increased public sector spending drains the life away from communities like Hamilton over time and increases the primacy of capitals like Toronto and Ottawa.

I'm all for a) robust countercyclical stimulus spending during a recession to kickstart the economy and avoid a liquidity trap; and b) public investment in critical infrastructure that will facilitate economic growth.

Unfortunately, in Hamilton we have too often gone for public apparatus as a general replacement for economic growth during both good times and bad, instead of addressing the structural problems that discourage investment in Hamilton.

It's quite depressing that HHS is the biggest employer in Hamilton, given that public facilities don't pay property tax and there is virtually no opportunity for spinoff development. That's not to say I oppose public investment in not-for-profit medical research and innovation; but it shouldn't be seen as a substitute for economic development.

[holymoly]

Being the centre of a area that includes Niagara and Brantford could actually be better as it will give Hamilton independence and prominence.
This is what I'd like to see -- as someone born and raised in Hamilton, currently a non-resident Hamilton homeowner.

And as a Toronto resident, I'd say the GTA already does a mess of a job managing the somewhat diverse areas it encompasses -- and I don't believe they'd do any better with Hamilton (which is very different from the GTA 'cities' in my opinion). My view might be skewed by the fact that I lived in Toronto pre-amalgamation too. Many of the attempts to bring consistency across the region have seemed ridiculous, as are many of the remaining inconsistencies.

[BrianE]

From a cultural point of view and generaly how each Cities population percieves themselves, I would suggest the following amalgamations as very likely in the next 50 years.

Burlington + Oakville = The City of Burloak

Oakville is Burlington's slightly richer brother... but really the two might as well be the same person.

Mississauga will probly one day be part of Toronto. I defy anybody to get in a helicopter and point to the border when Mississauga stops and Toronto begins. It's indistinguishable.

Hamilton will probly still have the same border as it does now. Flamborough makes a big stink about how they associate themselves more with Kitchener/Waterloo. But the KW knows they're Hamilton through and through. (Hey! that rhymes!)

Haldimand is also much more tied to Hamilton that they like to think. I would see them becoming part of Hamilton more readily than with any other municipality. Or Haldimand and Norfolk will probly merge... didn't they do that already? They're one and the same if you ask me.

Niagara, Welland, St. Catherines. They might as well get a room, screw and get it over with. They're practicaly a city already and they wan't nothing to do with Hamilton.


Ditto Brantford.

[SteelTown]

I could see 50 or so years from now Haldimand and Norfolk joining with Hamilton's CMA with continue sprawl to the South and employment land around the Airport. I bet already majority in Caledonia works and commute to Hamilton.

[oldcoote]

Every single Torontonian I've met who has visited Hamilton has the same thing to say... "wow, I didn't know Hamilton had so much potential.." or "what a great urban area, with a little TLC it could be a great place" or "why does everything close downtown at 5pm?"

Contrast this with what I hear from Hamiltonians and people from smaller cities around Hamilton "downtown is scary" or "downtown is terrible, traffic is terrible"

+1

To quote The Joker (as portrayed by Jack Nicholson):

"This town needs an enema!" ;)

[dennis1]

If we take RM Niagara out, We still have 736,941. This actually sounds like a good idea. "Greater Hamilton Region" sounds good.

[flar]

Hamilton needs to take more ownership of Burlington. Hamilton proper has shed jobs like crazy but basically survives because of the employment corridor along the QEW through Halton Region. A sad and unfair situation for Hamilton vis a vis Burlington from a taxation perspective.

[adam]

Over 300,000 people live in lower Hamilton. The remaining 200,000 live in vast amounts of land on the mountain, near Burlington, etc, etc, etc,. That takes us up to 500,000. If we take it a step further so we can get 700,000... this will add HUGE amounts of land with low density suburban sprawl.

These regions you'd like to add come with a huge per capita cost for the city in roads, sewers, etc, etc What do these areas have to offer the city? The downtown has lead pipes in many areas, and yet these new suburban areas that want to get the label "Megacity" demand all the newest infrastructure and if there is a single pothole in the road they cry bloody murder. How is this fair to the city? Every km. of infrastructure that is laid down in these suburban areas comes at a cost per tax payer that is much higher than the cost for those living the higher density lower Hamilton area.

What do these other regions have to offer us? I'm having problems thinking of anything, so please help me out here.

[flar]

What do these other regions have to offer us? I'm having problems thinking of anything, so please help me out here.

Halton region's much healthier commercial and industrial sectors would be a huge boon to the tax base. They also took our upper middle class, Hamilton is left with a disproportionate number of low income people and people on welfare and disabiltiy and others requiringe social services. This is a major strain on the old budget.

[drpgq]

Halton region's much healthier commercial and industrial sectors would be a huge boon to the tax base. They also took our upper middle class, Hamilton is left with a disproportionate number of low income people and people on welfare and disabiltiy and others requiringe social services. This is a major strain on the old budget.

I think Flar has hit it on the head here. Sure Burlington is a lot less dense and there are costs associated with that, but they have far fewer on social assistance or people sucking up money through DARTS and other such services. That's why I'd like Hamilton to have a moratorium on new social housing. Hamilton has done its share for the lower income population of the province.

[dennis1]

Hamilton needs to take more ownership of Burlington. Hamilton proper has shed jobs like crazy but basically survives because of the employment corridor along the QEW through Halton Region. A sad and unfair situation for Hamilton vis a vis Burlington from a taxation perspective.
I know people from Burlington, and they claim Toronto more now.

[SteelTown]

I would rather go after Aldershot than Burlington. Aldershot is closely linked with Hamilton, La Salle Park is in Aldershot even though the City of Hamilton finance and looks over the park.

With Aldershot there's tons of empty land around the 403 for business parks and it's right next to the Aldershot Station (VIA/GO). Hamilton's VIA coverage is at Aldershot but not for long thankfully.

[adam]

I agree. There are some multi-storey condos going in along Plains Rd too

[Jon Dalton]

Hamilton needs to take more ownership of Burlington. Hamilton proper has shed jobs like crazy but basically survives because of the employment corridor along the QEW through Halton Region. A sad and unfair situation for Hamilton vis a vis Burlington from a taxation perspective.

True, and also sad and unfair for those who have to work there. All of the production staff at my workplace commute from Hamilton. The higher earning professional staff come from Oakville and Mississauga. Those coming from Hamilton are faced with more traffic, longer commutes and higher travel expenses, and left with less time and money to spend in Hamilton. I hope more companies start to consider where their workforce is coming from.

[highwater]

We need more of those higher earning professional staff living in Hamilton before much changes.

[markbarbera]

I would rather go after Aldershot than Burlington.

Thing is, Aldershot is not its own township. It's a community within the city of Burlington, and therefore part of the GTA. I don't see citizens of Burlington realligning themselves to be considered part of GHA. Despite the geographic proximity, the historical rivalry with Hamilton and the socio-economic links to the GTA lends to Burlington alligning itself closer to Toronto than to Hamilton.

[flar]

I think a lot of people in Burlington like to associate themselves with Toronto, but at the same time, there are a lot of cultural links to Hamilton there. A lot of Burlington residents are former Hamiltonians. There are also a lot of businesses that locate in Burlington to serve the Hamilton area. It really isn't Toronto, Burlington happens to be the place with the best, most serviceable land and most favourable tax policy in the Hamilton area (along the QEW). That's why I always took the unpopular position of partial support of the aerotropolis. Hamilton has lost out to Burlington time and time again because Burlington had a bunch of nice serviced ready to build land along the QEW while Hamilton had nothing (and has nothing). Note that brownfields don't count, as much as I'd like to see brownfields developed, that's not going to be the reality as long as every other city in the region has nice flat cheap serviced land along highways available.

[flar]

By coincidence, I just read something funny on this subject on another forum :

I would support separating the more urban parts of Peel and Halton from the rural north and integrating them into one RM, while merging the rural parts either into their own RM/couty or into the surrounding counties. At the same time, I would want to see the former Nassagaweya Township in Milton gain independence and included in the rural area. I would support the same thing for York and Durham Regions. The Regional Municipality of South Peel-Halton or something along those lines, perhaps with an amalgamated transit agency. It's too bad the RM of Hamilton-Wentworth doesn't exist anymore, or I'd propose merging Burlington into it.

I also think it's time for Oakville to recognize that when you're starting to reach 200,000 people, you are no longer a town, but a city.

We can have 'em because Toronto doesn't even want them :haha:

[thistleclub]

Thing is, Aldershot is not its own township. It's a community within the city of Burlington, and therefore part of the GTA. I don't see citizens of Burlington realligning themselves to be considered part of GHA. Despite the geographic proximity, the historical rivalry with Hamilton and the socio-economic links to the GTA lends to Burlington alligning itself closer to Toronto than to Hamilton.

True, but to look at a map, they should be with us. Flamborough/Waterdown/Carlisle are part of Hamilton, and that borderline tracks up Hwy 6 and along the escarpment to Kerns Rd/Milburough Line, then out to the Mountsberg Reservoir. Everything west of Milburough Line along that stretch is Hamilton; to the east it's Burlington. Extend that line to the water and you'll pretty much line up with the Skyway. Put another way, Waterdown is at one end of Waterdown Road, and Aldershot is at the other. Burlington is reaching buildout shortly and will have to basically double its intensification rates (see the Aldershot builds near the old Zellers that adam was mentioning).

I don't speak budgetese, but could Burlington's fabled tax idyll have anything to do with the fact that they've exported the unwashed and unwanted so that they barely have to fund social services? Or they are able to pay a visit to our hospitals when they can't summon the courage to check in at Joe Brant or be bothered to drive to Oakville Trafalgar?

[dennis1]

True, but to look at a map, they should be with us. Flamborough/Waterdown/Carlisle are part of Hamilton, and that borderline tracks up Hwy 6 and along the escarpment to Kerns Rd/Milburough Line, then out to the Mountsberg Reservoir. Everything west of Milburough Line along that stretch is Hamilton; to the east it's Burlington. Extend that line to the water and you'll pretty much line up with the Skyway. Put another way, Waterdown is at one end of Waterdown Road, and Aldershot is at the other. Burlington is reaching buildout shortly and will have to basically double its intensification rates (see the Aldershot builds near the old Zellers that adam was mentioning).

I don't speak budgetese, but could Burlington's fabled tax idyll have anything to do with the fact that they've exported the unwashed and unwanted so that they barely have to fund social services? Or they are able to pay a visit to our hospitals when they can't summon the courage to check in at Joe Brant or be bothered to drive to Oakville Trafalgar?

I was thinking the Burlington had little in the way of Burden, which is why they have so much.

[bigguy1231]

First of all Burlington is part of the Hamilton CMA and always has been in the eyes of the federal government. So is Grimsby.

As for Aldershot, it once many years ago was essentially part of the city of Hamilton. It became part of Burlington when regionalization came into being in the early seventies. The people in Aldershot were given a choice. They chose Burlington and Halton region. Thats why we have places like Lasalle park and Woodland cemetary that are owned by the city of Hamilton located there.

Burlington should have become a part of the Hamilton region when regionalization came into effect since most people there at the time had close ties to Hamilton. But because of the objections of their MPP at the time they became a part of Halton. At that time you have to realize that the population of Burlington was only about 15 thousand and looked nothing like it does now. The land along the QEW where all those factories are located was all farmland. That farmland for the most part has been filled with factories and businesses that were once located in Hamilton. Burlington is a product of Hamilton and as such should be linked to Hamilton.

[dennis1]

First of all Burlington is part of the Hamilton CMA and always has been in the eyes of the federal government. So is Grimsby.

As for Aldershot, it once many years ago was essentially part of the city of Hamilton. It became part of Burlington when regionalization came into being in the early seventies. The people in Aldershot were given a choice. They chose Burlington and Halton region. Thats why we have places like Lasalle park and Woodland cemetary that are owned by the city of Hamilton located there.

Burlington should have become a part of the Hamilton region when regionalization came into effect since most people there at the time had close ties to Hamilton. But because of the objections of their MPP at the time they became a part of Halton. At that time you have to realize that the population of Burlington was only about 15 thousand and looked nothing like it does now. The land along the QEW where all those factories are located was all farmland. That farmland for the most part has been filled with factories and businesses that were once located in Hamilton. Burlington is a product of Hamilton and as such should be linked to Hamilton.

But they chose otherwise. Beside this is not about them, it about you guys what you prefer. Your own or Toronto?

[dennis1]

can someone add a poll?

[bigguy1231]

Quite simple, I would prefer that Hamilton stay on it's own. I want nothing to do with Toronto. It's better to be a big fish in a little pond than a little fish in a big pond. The city of Hamilton has been neglected by the province for 40 years, we don't need to be neglected by another level of government.

[adam]

Actually the city's own municipal government has ignored its downtown for 40 years. At least Toronto "gets" downtowns We are starting to come around however, but its so painfully slow. Case in point: when Toronto wanted to build a new modern city hall, they didn't tear down the old one. They kept it and it was used for another purpose. Its now a beautiful landmark building and adds a great deal to that part of the city. I'd like to add that BOTH the old and new city halls in Toronto are in good shape and are well looked after.

I'll take a government that takes care of its assets any day over what we currently have.

[highwater]

The city of Toronto wanted to tear down the old city hall. It was a very loud, concerted opposition from citizens that stopped it. Ditto Union Station. If there's a difference between Toronto and Hamilton, it's in the mentality of its citizens, not its government.

[c@taract_soulj@h]

Suburbs of Toronto don't have professional sports franchises or vie for new ones
They are no more than "quaint" bedroom communities being the poster child of urban sprawl that sucessfully inject money into the GTA.

Hamilton is it's own area and has defined itself as one for decades. Like other forumers have said, we want nothing to do with Toronto. We'd like to have the same amenities as T.O however, the big smoke is more like our in-law or half-brother to sorta speak whom we like to feud with every now and than. In the long run though Toronto can kiss our gritty ass and continue to spend 3 bucks on a double double =D

I could see Hamilton with it's own suburbs rather than us being one ourselves.

Case in Point :cool:

I could very well see Brantford, Caledonia as part of the GHA too...shit...thats a good extra 100,000 people nearly!

[urban_planner]

I think Hamilton should focus on its own area first before we get worrying about grabbing up other cities.