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mr.x
Dec 11, 2008, 10:43 PM
Stern regrets Vancouver expansion
Thursday, December 11, 2008

THE CANADIAN PRESS

Given another chance, NBA commissioner David Stern would have handled the league's foray into Vancouver differently.

In a podcast interview with ESPN.com, Stern was asked what decisions he would take a mulligan on over the course of his 24 years on the job.

"I wish we hadn't had the Vancouver experience," Stern replied. "Great city, and we disappointed them, and we disappointed ourselves."

The league expanded into Toronto and Vancouver in 1995. The Vancouver Grizzlies amassed a 101-359 record in six seasons before moving to Memphis in 2001.

Stern said he thought the league might have mishandled the expansion.

"Maybe we shouldn't have done it there, maybe we should have only expanded into Toronto ... but that was a great disappointment to me," he said.

Stern added that he didn't think the league could return to Vancouver.

"I don't think we can go back," Stern said. "I think that was a great city, and I think we just didn't take advantage of the opportunity."

flight_from_kamakura
Dec 11, 2008, 10:58 PM
uh yeah, vancouver was a terrible idea. noone here likes basketball (though i hear it's played somewhat in some of the suburbs). in canadian terms, one might understand this as:

- nashville predators
- florida panthers
- tampa bay lightning
- carolina hurricanes
- phoenix coyotes
- atlanta thrashers

and to a lesser extent:

- los angeles kings
- anaheim ducks
- dallas stars
- san jose sharks

basically, a bad idea, destined for low attendance and eventual failure. mccaw would probably have had more luck if he'd scored vancouver an australian football league team.

djmk
Dec 11, 2008, 11:24 PM
i loved those grizzlies. i was so excited when they won their first two games with that benoit benjimin. i could not get enough. and when jordan came into the city and decimated the grizzlies singlehandedly was totally awesome.

the team failed because of stu jackson. worst GM ever.

Metro-One
Dec 11, 2008, 11:37 PM
There is a lot of support for basketball in vancouver, but the problem with Vancouver is that in any sport they only support winning teams, and the Grizzlies had a horrible track record.

Smooth
Dec 12, 2008, 12:33 AM
I'm surprised that the Grizzlies were here 6 years. It felt like they were here for only half that time.

I think there is still a lot of bitterness towards the NBA over how that whole experience went. The NBA could have easily been successful here. If it was marketed more to the asian community they could have had a huge season ticket base I think.

I doubt we'll see an NBA team here any time soon. I think Seattle deserves to get a team back before we do.

DKaz
Dec 12, 2008, 12:55 AM
Seattle lost the Sonics?! When did that happen?

Smooth
Dec 12, 2008, 1:33 AM
I believe they moved to Oklahoma this year and are now called the Oklahoma City Thunder.

EastVanMark
Dec 12, 2008, 4:37 AM
uh yeah, vancouver was a terrible idea. noone here likes basketball (though i hear it's played somewhat in some of the suburbs). in canadian terms, one might understand this as:

- nashville predators
- florida panthers
- tampa bay lightning
- carolina hurricanes
- phoenix coyotes
- atlanta thrashers

and to a lesser extent:

- los angeles kings
- anaheim ducks
- dallas stars
- san jose sharks

basically, a bad idea, destined for low attendance and eventual failure. mccaw would probably have had more luck if he'd scored vancouver an australian football league team.

John McCaw wasn't the original owner of the Grizzlies. He was the one who decided to sell the team which began their exit out of town. Also, 3 of those franchises you listed are actually quite solid ground, with 2 of them being worth more than the hometown Canucks.

Distill3d
Dec 12, 2008, 5:10 AM
basically, a bad idea, destined for low attendance and eventual failure. mccaw would probably have had more luck if he'd scored vancouver an australian football league team.

Vancover Cougars (http://www.vancouvercougars.com/)

98fb
Dec 12, 2008, 5:23 AM
uh yeah, vancouver was a terrible idea. noone here likes basketball (though i hear it's played somewhat in some of the suburbs). in canadian terms, one might understand this as:

- nashville predators
- florida panthers
- tampa bay lightning
- carolina hurricanes
- phoenix coyotes
- atlanta thrashers

and to a lesser extent:

- los angeles kings
- anaheim ducks
- dallas stars
- san jose sharks

basically, a bad idea, destined for low attendance and eventual failure. mccaw would probably have had more luck if he'd scored vancouver an australian football league team.


are you insane?

NetMapel
Dec 12, 2008, 5:37 AM
Wouldn't they want to give us a team sooner in a proper manner to make up Grizzlies' shitty existence here in Vancouver ? :rolleyes:

flight_from_kamakura
Dec 12, 2008, 3:32 PM
Vancover Cougars (http://www.vancouvercougars.com/)

excellent!! :haha:

Distill3d
Dec 12, 2008, 5:27 PM
excellent!! :haha:

you laugh, but they're actually a pretty good team! :yes:

oddly, Burnaby has a team too...the Eagles or something like that

vanman
Dec 12, 2008, 6:18 PM
I think there is still a lot of bitterness towards the NBA over how that whole experience went. The NBA could have easily been successful here. If it was marketed more to the asian community they could have had a huge season ticket base I think.

That is exactly what I think. Can you imagine if the Grizzlies were ever able to acquire Yao Ming?

djmk
Dec 12, 2008, 7:04 PM
That is exactly what I think. Can you imagine if the Grizzlies were ever able to acquire Yao Ming?

yao ming went first in the draft in 2002. Houston got them. and the grizz were in memphis.

1996 was a big draft for us. vancouver picked Shareef (3rd) and gave up on Kobe (13th), and Nash (15th). It was an awesome year of talent and Stu picked shareef.

in 1997, they offerred big country with a 62 million dollar contract!!!

1998 draft we got bibby when vancouver could of got Vince Carter,Dirk Nowitzki or Paul Pierce

and the worst was in 1999 when vancouver got steve francis after he swore he would never play for vancouver.

mistake after horrible mistake. stu jackson was the worst GM ever.

Rusty Gull
Dec 12, 2008, 7:15 PM
SOUTH CHINA MORNING POST
July 15, 2001

Net loss -- the grisly mistakes that sidelined Vancouver's Asian fans

Few tears as Memphis-bound NBA franchise bids farewell to Western Canada after six fruitless seasons


The National Basketball Association has made it official: The Vancouver Grizzlies, a basketball franchise plagued by management miscues and player meltdowns since its inception in 1994, is now Memphis-bound. On Tuesday, NBA owners gave unanimous approval to the move, allowing the team to reap the benefits of a well-schooled basketball market and local corporate support from the likes of FedEx.

Chicago-based owner Michael Heisley, who assured Vancouver fans last spring that their team was staying put despite what the rumor-mill had to stay, quickly changed his tune earlier this year. Beset with financial losses pegged by management at about US$46 million during the 2000-2001 campaign, the franchise announced its relocation ambitions, and after shopping around for an ideal hometown south of the border, eventually settled on Graceland.

Some Vancouver fans, not surprisingly, were shocked and outraged by the move. Others felt betrayed. But for the most part, most simply shrugged their shoulders and said "good riddance."

For all of its good intentions, the franchise never clicked with the city, or for that matter, Western Canada. The dismal performance of the team on the court didn't help matters, but in the opinion of some basketball fans, it was the franchise's ho-hum attitude towards the local community that effectively sealed its fate.

Many fans believe the team could have captured the city's imagination if it had catered to one of Vancouver's most significant demographic groups: the Asian community. "It was foolish for the Grizzlies not to do more to tap into the Asian community," says Dan Russell, a Vancouver sports radio personality.

Buoyed by immigration from Hong Kong, Mainland China, Taiwan, India, Korea, Vietnam, and the Philippines, particularly during the last decade, the city's Asian population base is among the largest in North America.

Indeed, the Asian connection played a pivotal role in the city landing the franchise back in 1994. At the time, NBA commissioner David Stern wasn't shy in expressing his hopes for Vancouver -- that it would become the NBA's eventual gateway to Asia.

The team's home stadium, GM Place, was located adjacent to the city's bustling Chinatown. And the team's birth coincided with the rising financial and political clout of the city's Asian population.

But the team never took off with Asian fans from either side of the Pacific Ocean.

"It seemed to me that there were great opportunities the Grizzlies could have taken advantage of," says John Bell, who took an acute interest in the Grizzlies connection to Asian fans during his 1997 tenure as ambassador for Canada's Year of Asia Pacific. Bell cites the surging popularity of the sport in the Asia Pacific hub, as well as within the Vancouver Asian demographic, as reasons why the franchise needed to reach out to that market. "A larger effort with the Asian community would have given some identification. There were a number of things they could have done to make the team more Asian."

The team actually bought into his viewpoint, to a degree, during the past season. A Chinese New Year's promotion tied in with a home game against the Chicago Bulls generated an attendance tally of 16,845 fans, one of the largest turnouts of the year. But by then, Heisley was already looking for greener pastures. Other Asian-geared promotions put more fans in the seats, but never created the groundswell of support that would have saved the team.

"There was a real push in this last year to do a little more," admits Jay Triano, the former director of community relations for the team. "They tried to hit the Asian market knowing the popularity of basketball amongst most Asians."

Some pundits -- including Russell -- argue that recent promotions weren't enough to captivate the community, however. "It took far too long for the Grizzlies to wake up and realize it was critical for the future of the franchise to gear a large percentage of their marketing strategy in that area," he says. "They were guilty of assuming the Asian population would simply support them. I don't believe they became creative in this area until the final year, and by then it was too late."

What was needed, argues Russell, was a bonafide NBA Asian star to establish the franchise as "Asia's team." It didn't happen.

During the 1999 draft, the Grizzlies had a shot at picking Chinese center Wang Zhi-Zhi -- but passed up the opportunity. Instead, the 7-foot-1 Beijing-native went to the Dallas Mavericks. He made a much-ballyhooed debut with the squad earlier this year.

Ironically, the Mavericks have picked other international players deemed not as worthy by teams like the Grizzlies, including celebrated Canadian hoopster Steve Nash, Mexican Eduardo Najera and Nigerian Obinna Ekezie. German power-forward Dirk Nowitzki also plays for the team. By going global, the Mavericks franchise earned whopping exposure around the world, especially in Asia, where the "Wang Watch" took hold with Chinese media outlets. And while Wang's future in Dallas is uncertain, a city best known for football, cowboy culture and oil briefly laid claim to a basketball team with international, pan-Pacific cachet.

Even officials from the NBA admit that the Mavericks have established themselves as "Asia's team" -- not an easy feat, considering the ongoing popularity of legendary franchises like the Los Angeles Lakers in the region as well.

The Vancouver Grizzlies, on the other hand, weren't interested in acquiring players as marketing tools. As Triano explains, "the Grizzlies were in a situation where they couldn't pick players because of their popularity. They had to pick players who would help them win basketball games."

But the team turned in another dismal campaign during the 2000-2001 season, despite their stated focus on drafting for on-court performance, not marketing or community relations. After six seasons in Vancouver, the Grizzlies achieved a lifetime home record of 66-220, the worst percentage showing among the 65 franchises in league history.

"I don't know why they passed up on Zhi-Zhi," laments Russell. "I do know when I spoke with GM Billy Knight before Christmas about Yao Ming (the top-rated Chinese basketball prospect from the Shanghai Sharks), he did not seem overly receptive to the notion. Perhaps by then he already knew what the future was going to bring."

Other media types close to the Grizzlies' marketing efforts, such as Vancouver television producer Karning Hum, echo Russell's sentiments. "I think it goes without saying that drafting a player of Chinese descent would have put more fans in the stands," he says.

Bell, who witnessed Yao and Wang exchange baskets in a game between the Shanghai Sharks and the Beijing Army in China, has no doubts the two players could have a serious impact in the NBA. "Watching the two titans squaring off was the best basketball I've seen in my life," he says.

Bell made a push to bring a Chinese star to Vancouver, and talked to management about the possibility of Wang suiting up in a Grizzlies uniform. But trade scenarios with Dallas to acquire Wang this past year never materialized. Bell also tried, unsuccessfully, to bring North Korean center Michael Ri to the city. Ri spent eight months in Ottawa, Canada, training under the tutelage of Jack Donahue, the former Canadian national-team coach. He told the Montreal Gazette newspaper last year that the player was "NBA material".

Over time, however, the interest of the Grizzlies in Ri began to lessen, and the efforts of Bell and others to add the jump shot specialist to the team's roster fell through.

According to one individual involved in the effort to keep the Grizzlies in Vancouver, a successful sales pitch to Asians here could have improved the team's local fortunes to the tune of millions, but that still wouldn't have solved the big-picture woes. That's because factors outside of the local community's control, including currency exchange rates and the team's losing record, were primarily at play. "A full house could happen every night and you'd still have a $20 million (loss) problem."

Still, he says, the departure of the team represents a huge blow to the NBA's bigger plans.
"It's a real disappointment to (NBA Commissioner) David Stern," he said. "Part of the league's rationale was internationalizing the league. That's why you see them sending teams to Tokyo. The (Asian) market's important to them. But if it fails in Vancouver, what chance do they have making a move on Asia or Mexico?"

For their part, NBA officials in New York have so far downplayed any league expansion overseas. "That's just not in the plans at all," says Terry Lyons, the NBA's VP of International Public Relations. "We have no thoughts of establishing franchises in Asia." The league does, however, maintain a Hong Kong office overseeing the league's activities and marketing efforts on the continent. As well, satellite offices currently serve Japan and Taiwan, and there are plans to have an office within the year to focus on Mainland China.

As for the Grizzlies, Lyons is defensive of the team's ownership record, and its relationship with the Western Canadian market. "As much as any team in the league, the Grizzlies were focused on drawing from a diverse community," he says. "I think the team was successful in those terms."

But a Vancouver media frenzy surrounding potential buyers for the team from Heisley underscored how much interest existed in the team's Asian connection.

The Vancouver Province tabloid newspaper reported in February that Taiwanese-born Daniel Chiang, chairman of Chinese Internet portal Sina.com, was keen on buying the team outright and keeping it in Vancouver. Chiang, who expressed his interest in buying a West Coast team with a losing record, and emulating the turnaround efforts of Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban, touched off speculation from Vancouver's Chinatown to the NBA offices in New York. "I see Vancouver as having a great deal of potential," he said in February. "There is big room for improvement. Turning the team around would give me the sense of achievement."

The dot-com magnate, who maintained that raising the money for the team purchase wasn't a problem, also said he wanted to exploit his connections to Asia to market the NBA franchise overseas, especially in China.

It turned out that the takeover talk was fruitless, however, something attested to by local sources close to the situation, as well as David Stern himself. For reasons not divulged by either Stern or Chiang, the technology billionaire's interest in the team suddenly disappeared.

The Chiang soap opera gave way to another franchise takeover rumor, this one fueled again by the Province newspaper. A splashy front page photo and headline alluded to the Grizzlies ownership ambitions of Nina Wang, Hong Kong's richest woman. That story was unsubstantiated from the get-go, however, and was based on a third-party broker's attempts to sell her on the idea. Wang herself was apparently never involved in the Vancouver situation.

But the ownership guessing-game taking place in the media underscored a desperation in the air. Vancouverites were holding out for an Asian savior, but one never surfaced. Without a legitimate high-roller to step up to the plate, Heisley and his team were as good as gone.

"Nothing for this franchise went right after their first two games of the first season," says Russell. "A horrible on floor record, an NBA lockout, bad drafting, poor trading, disenchanted players, a lack of a leader in the dressing room, and bad ownership are all on the list."

Russell, like many others who watched the rise and fall of the franchise in Vancouver, laments the fact that the team wasn't able to parlay the city's unique position as a gateway to the Pacific into a global marketing opportunity. What could have been a showcase franchise for the league, one laying claim to athletes and fans from around the world, eventually deflated into its current state.

Basketball fans in Vancouver, Asian or not, will surely miss having a professional basketball team of the NBA caliber playing in their backyard. And Stern is said to have his regrets too, as the league will no longer enjoy a foothold in Vancouver's multicultural society, nor the convenient connection to Asia that he once envisioned.

Michael Heisley, meanwhile, is pleased his franchise has made the move to Memphis, a more traditional basketball market with greater access to corporate cash. But fans of the team will always wonder if he, and the owners who came before him, should have made a bigger push to Asian basketball fans in Vancouver and beyond.

"They were guilty of assuming the Asian population would simply support them," says Russell. "I don't believe they became creative in this area until the final year, and by then it was too late. To largely ignore the value of the Asian community to the future of the franchise was a mistake."

Vancity
Jan 13, 2009, 10:59 PM
Stern's time is coming to an end. The NBA is such an unstable league. There has been 3 franchises moved the last few years (Charlotte, Seattle, Vancouver). I see the NBA coming back to Vancouver, just not while Stern is the commissioner. You can't ignore such a huge asian population who love basketball and the NBA - IF the league had done things right first go around, things would obviously be very different.

Oh, and Stu Jackson is an idiot. He is never going to be GM again, not after the decisions he made with the Grizzlies.

Distill3d
Jan 13, 2009, 11:46 PM
^even with the void left by the Sonic's becoming Oklahoma City Thunder, GM Place may host some exhibition games featuring the Toronto Raptors or some international games. however i can't say i as i agree that the NBA is going to come back to Vancouver. especially with the expansion mistakes that have been made between all the pro sports leagues and the economic situation that we're in.

mr.x
Jan 13, 2009, 11:59 PM
Would the city even be able to handle three major sports leagues? The fan base? The sponsorships?

We've got the NHL, the CFL, and possibly very soon the MLS. It'll have to be either the MLS or NBA, i highly doubt there's a market for both.

Vancity
Jan 14, 2009, 12:13 AM
^even with the void left by the Sonic's becoming Oklahoma City Thunder, GM Place may host some exhibition games featuring the Toronto Raptors or some international games. however i can't say i as i agree that the NBA is going to come back to Vancouver. especially with the expansion mistakes that have been made between all the pro sports leagues and the economic situation that we're in.

There are a lot of basketball fans here in Vancouver. Of course, the city is primarily a hockey town, and rightfully so (we have a heritage of the Canucks), but I think the NBA can survive. If not for the absolute ridiculous blunders of the GM, Stu Jackson, the Grizzlies, in my opinion would still be here. Not worth arguing, however, because they're already gone.

Of course nobody currently would move, or even consider expansion at this point in time, because of the global economic crisis, but perhaps one day, the NBA will see the possibility that is Vancouver. Vancouver, in my opinion, can become a great sports city, as it is now, we're not even on the map. When I think of a great sports town, I look at places like Boston, New York. Vancouver has the potential of becoming a great sports town.

Vancity
Jan 14, 2009, 12:20 AM
Would the city even be able to handle three major sports leagues? The fan base? The sponsorships?

We've got the NHL, the CFL, and possibly very soon the MLS. It'll have to be either the MLS or NBA, i highly doubt there's a market for both.

I don't see why the city couldn't afford to handle 3 major league sports franchises. We all know that the Canucks have the #1 spot in the hearts of Vancourites (for the most part). The CFL I'm not too worried about. They are a Canadian major league, but in the eyes of Americans, and even perhaps globally, a minor league. Could Vancouver support 3 major sports leagues? You bet I think we can. Why not? Vancouver has a rich history of soccer (from the days of the Whitecaps), and hockey, and is also a hotbed for lacrosse as well (rumor mill has it that some local reps are trying to get the NLL back in Vancouver). These are sports that have strong ties to the city and the communities.

Those sports franchises, of course need to make solid, business decisions, and rapport with the community. They need to establish some sort of grass-roots for kids to play their respective sports, to garner interest from youths, young adults, kids - people from all generations.

If the city had to embrace one league or the other (NBA or MLS), it would definitely be the MLS. Two reasons. Soccer has deep roots here, and the experience from the NBA has not been lost on Vancouverites (as much as I love the NBA and would give them, personally, a second chance).

I can also see the NLL coming back to Vancouver in the next few years.

Distill3d
Jan 14, 2009, 12:26 AM
Would the city even be able to handle three major sports leagues? The fan base? The sponsorships?

We've got the NHL, the CFL, and possibly very soon the MLS. It'll have to be either the MLS or NBA, i highly doubt there's a market for both.

i absolutely agree with you. we're closer to an MLS franchise and expanding an established fan base for an already existing local team.

Vancouver, in my opinion, can become a great sports city, as it is now, we're not even on the map. When I think of a great sports town, I look at places like Boston, New York. Vancouver has the potential of becoming a great sports town.

the issue with Vancouver becoming a great sports town like Boston or New York is the lack of championship experience from our primary team (the Canucks). they're still at least 5 seasons away from winning a cup.

jlousa
Jan 14, 2009, 12:26 AM
No disrespect but the NLL is pretty bush league. We might as well go after a WNBA team they would have roughly the same attendance.

Distill3d
Jan 14, 2009, 12:31 AM
I can also see the NLL coming back to Vancouver in the next few years.

thats not likely. Vancouver was given a provisional franchise for the 2008 season, provided the could secure an arena lease and 2,500 season tickets. it was announced that the Ravens would be playing at GM Place, but less than a week later, it was announced they would not be playing in the 2008 season. then the league went on strike shortly after.

Vancity
Jan 14, 2009, 1:12 AM
thats not likely. Vancouver was given a provisional franchise for the 2008 season, provided the could secure an arena lease and 2,500 season tickets. it was announced that the Ravens would be playing at GM Place, but less than a week later, it was announced they would not be playing in the 2008 season. then the league went on strike shortly after.

Yeah, I read the news about that. Did you hear about this, though? An article, from last year, but I'm not sure if it was posted.

Former Olympic boxer bids on backing pro boxla
Greig Bethel, The Province
Published: Tuesday, August 26, 2008

Former Olympian Dale Walters has gone from boxing to box lacrosse.

The Burnaby native -- a bronze medal winner in the 54-kilogram bantamweight division at the Los Angeles Games in 1984 and member of the B.C. Sports Hall of Fame-- is pursuing a National Lacrosse League franchise in Vancouver for 2011.

"Originally, I was hoping for '09 and then I was looking toward 2010, but there are no venues available [GM Place or the Pacific Coliseum] because of the Olympics," Walters, who went 165-12 as an amateur boxer and 7-1 as a pro, said Monday from Calgary.

Walters first approached NLL commissioner Jim Jennings in April, then assembled a franchise bid by the league deadline in June.

"We're really leaning toward the Pacific Coliseum," said Walters, who has already had initial talks with the PNE. "I've heard that lacrosse fans are not wanting to go all the way downtown to GM Place."

Vancouver's previous NLL team, the Ravens, played in GM Place from 2002-04 before running into financial problems. In 2007, a bid by Ravens founder Tom Mayen-knecht to return the team for the 2008 season failed.

Walters, whose son Trevor is currently suiting up for Team B.C. at the midget nationals in Calgary, and partner Geoff Hughes are putting the final touches on their business plan.

The former boxer, owner of a gym in downtown Vancouver, is the bid's point man while Hughes, a sports-entertainment promoter who made millions in Vancouver real estate, is the money man.

"We realized the NLL is not a big money-maker, but it is a viable business," Walters said. "We're prepared to move ahead."

Walters hopes to have the bid approved by the NLL for the end of 2008.

"That gives us two full years to build the business, the team and get things going to enter the league in 2011," he said. "We still have work to do, but we're hoping to have news by the end of the year that pro lacrosse is coming back to Vancouver."

There is a possibility of an NLL preseason game in Vancouver before the 2009 season, likely featuring the Colorado Mammoth and Edmonton Rush. A game was originally slated for Victoria, but will likely be moved to Vancouver.

Victoria hosted an exhibition game between the Portland LumberJax and Minnesota Swarm in 2006. gbethel@theprovince.com

I know it's a while back, but thought that I'd post the article anyways.

Vancity
Jan 14, 2009, 1:13 AM
No disrespect but the NLL is pretty bush league. We might as well go after a WNBA team they would have roughly the same attendance.

Well, if we can't succeed with the NBA, might as well try with the WNBA. couldn't hurt :P

Distill3d
Jan 14, 2009, 2:26 AM
Yeah, I read the news about that. Did you hear about this, though? An article, from last year, but I'm not sure if it was posted.

Former Olympic boxer bids on backing pro boxla
Greig Bethel, The Province
Published: Tuesday, August 26, 2008

Former Olympian Dale Walters has gone from boxing to box lacrosse.

The Burnaby native -- a bronze medal winner in the 54-kilogram bantamweight division at the Los Angeles Games in 1984 and member of the B.C. Sports Hall of Fame-- is pursuing a National Lacrosse League franchise in Vancouver for 2011.

"Originally, I was hoping for '09 and then I was looking toward 2010, but there are no venues available [GM Place or the Pacific Coliseum] because of the Olympics," Walters, who went 165-12 as an amateur boxer and 7-1 as a pro, said Monday from Calgary.

Walters first approached NLL commissioner Jim Jennings in April, then assembled a franchise bid by the league deadline in June.

"We're really leaning toward the Pacific Coliseum," said Walters, who has already had initial talks with the PNE. "I've heard that lacrosse fans are not wanting to go all the way downtown to GM Place."

Vancouver's previous NLL team, the Ravens, played in GM Place from 2002-04 before running into financial problems. In 2007, a bid by Ravens founder Tom Mayen-knecht to return the team for the 2008 season failed.

Walters, whose son Trevor is currently suiting up for Team B.C. at the midget nationals in Calgary, and partner Geoff Hughes are putting the final touches on their business plan.

The former boxer, owner of a gym in downtown Vancouver, is the bid's point man while Hughes, a sports-entertainment promoter who made millions in Vancouver real estate, is the money man.

"We realized the NLL is not a big money-maker, but it is a viable business," Walters said. "We're prepared to move ahead."

Walters hopes to have the bid approved by the NLL for the end of 2008.

"That gives us two full years to build the business, the team and get things going to enter the league in 2011," he said. "We still have work to do, but we're hoping to have news by the end of the year that pro lacrosse is coming back to Vancouver."

There is a possibility of an NLL preseason game in Vancouver before the 2009 season, likely featuring the Colorado Mammoth and Edmonton Rush. A game was originally slated for Victoria, but will likely be moved to Vancouver.

Victoria hosted an exhibition game between the Portland LumberJax and Minnesota Swarm in 2006. gbethel@theprovince.com

I know it's a while back, but thought that I'd post the article anyways.

there was a bid put in back in August but not much has materialized since. also, the 2009 season has kicked off already and there wasn't a game in Victoria or Vancouver prior.

Lacrosse has a small following in most cities and is considered a small time operation. even the Calgary Roughnecks rank some where near the pro baseball team in recognition in, and they (the Roughnecks) won the 2004 NLL Championship.

BigWilly
Jan 14, 2009, 3:32 AM
to be honest i'm happy the NBA isnt coming back to Vancouver, don't get me wrong i love basketball but to watch guys like Steve Francis at the NBA draft look so disinterested being drafted by the Grizz you really have to wonder if NBA rookies really want to play in Canada or Vancouver especially when they get taxed more and when there are very little endorsement opportunities available to them here. Even Tracy McGrady bailed on Toronto and eventually wanted to play back in the states. Vince Carter admitted he often didnt try playing for the Raptors.

That being said i must admit, despite the numerous losses there are alway guys like Abdur Rahim who've battled hard every night and appeared very happy to be a Grizz.

Personally i would prefer MLS over NBA right now.

Vancity
Jan 14, 2009, 3:45 AM
to be honest i'm happy the NBA isnt coming back to Vancouver, don't get me wrong i love basketball but to watch guys like Steve Francis at the NBA draft look so disinterested being drafted by the Grizz you really have to wonder if NBA rookies really want to play in Canada or Vancouver especially when they get taxed more and when there are very little endorsement opportunities available to them here. Even Tracy McGrady bailed on Toronto and eventually wanted to play back in the states. Vince Carter admitted he often didnt try playing for the Raptors.

That being said i must admit, despite the numerous losses there are alway guys like Abdur Rahim who've battled hard every night and appeared very happy to be a Grizz.

Personally i would prefer MLS over NBA right now.



Speaking of the MLS franchise for the Whitecaps. Anyone have any news on that? The proposal to build near the waterfront is all but dead, from what I hear. Would the Whitecaps be able to build elsewhere, or must they build in downtown waterfront? Richmond ain't very far ;)

NetMapel
Jan 14, 2009, 5:56 AM
Speaking of the MLS franchise for the Whitecaps. Anyone have any news on that? The proposal to build near the waterfront is all but dead, from what I hear. Would the Whitecaps be able to build elsewhere, or must they build in downtown waterfront? Richmond ain't very far ;)

MLS' forums has some good more updated news about Vancouver's MLS bid. http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=1316

Vancity
Jan 14, 2009, 5:58 AM
MLS' forums has some good more updated news about Vancouver's MLS bid. http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=1316

Thanks for the link, NetMapel :)

worldwide
Jan 14, 2009, 6:55 AM
i think that vancouver already is a great sports city, just not in the conventional sense. were all out participating in our own sports and therefore we don't have the time to watch other people play theirs.

Vancity
Jan 14, 2009, 8:35 AM
i think that vancouver already is a great sports city, just not in the conventional sense. were all out participating in our own sports and therefore we don't have the time to watch other people play theirs.

I guess when I said Vancouver being a great sports town, I meant more of professional organized major league sports (i.e NHL, MLB, NFL, NBA, MLS, etc) For a town of about 2 mil, we really only have one major league sports franchise, and that's the Canucks. The CFL, while I believe is a great Canadian major league, in the north american market, it's still considered a minor league. I admire our city, though, unlike most americans, Canadians are quite healthy - yay!

EastVanMark
Jan 15, 2009, 4:45 AM
Vancouver's best chance at gaining a pro team would be with the MLS. Soccer has a very long (and very successful) history in this region and is played by more people than even powerhouse hockey. The current incarnation of the Whitecaps is one of it's league's flagship franchises. Not to mention it has a deep pocketed owner who seems quite content to keep pouring piles of money (which he will never see even a penny back from) into initiatives to model his organization after some of the heavy weights of soccer whose revenues can afford them to operate in such a fashion. (unlike anything in North America).

As for any other "pro" team starting up in Vancouver, the NBA and the NLL seem to be next on the list. However, in both cases, those proposed teams would have to be linked (i.e. owned in whole, or in part) by the cities #1 sporting brand, the Vancouver Canucks. Neither team would stand much of a chance to stand on their own and hopefully we won't see a return of the Ravens (if that's what they will be called) without some participation by Canucks Sports and Entertainment.

The story of the NBA's Grizzlies demise is as about poor timing as it was about bad management. The Grizzlies came about at a time when even the Canucks were a money losing proposition. Not to mention the Canadian dollar was in a huge slump, yet salaries still had to be paid out in much stronger US dollars. That coupled with the fact that this market didn't have really deep basketball roots or traditions, plus the obvious inept management meant the Grizzlies soon became an extinct species.

Today the situation is much better. The Canuck brand has become a major force and has transcended the boundaries of "sports team" to being a major economic engine for the city of Vancouver. A Canuck season ticket is now a major commodity and could/possibly should be used to help prop up less popular teams the way MLSE does in Toronto. (the practice of "forcing" high end ticket buyers of the Maple Leafs to also purchase tickets to the far less popular Raptors). Vancouver is now in a position to follow suit rather than just constantly raising ticket prices for just the hockey team which is really starting to push the limits of hockey fans in the city.

NetMapel
Jan 15, 2009, 5:08 AM
To be extremely honest, I think the NBA and even the MLB can tap into a huge market here that's untapped by both the NHL and CFL. That market being the large East Asian population that we have here. East Asians proportionally are less interested in hockey and football but they're crazy for baseball and basketball. Therefore, I really think, if the NBA or the MLB are smart, they will think about expanding into this large untapped market in Vancouver. Canucks don't have to worry about losing any market or whatever because they these other pro teams will be attracting a brand new segment of fans and audiences.

EastVanMark
Jan 15, 2009, 5:40 AM
To be extremely honest, I think the NBA and even the MLB can tap into a huge market here that's untapped by both the NHL and CFL. That market being the large East Asian population that we have here. East Asians proportionally are less interested in hockey and football but they're crazy for baseball and basketball. Therefore, I really think, if the NBA or the MLB are smart, they will think about expanding into this large untapped market in Vancouver. Canucks don't have to worry about losing any market or whatever because they these other pro teams will be attracting a brand new segment of fans and audiences.

You're absolutely right and that is just what the NBA thought when they granted the franchise to Vancouver. Unfortunately, the Grizzlies' management did absolutely NOTHING to market to that community until halfway through their final season in Vancouver which was much too little much too late.

Vancity
Jan 15, 2009, 8:21 AM
To be extremely honest, I think the NBA and even the MLB can tap into a huge market here that's untapped by both the NHL and CFL. That market being the large East Asian population that we have here. East Asians proportionally are less interested in hockey and football but they're crazy for baseball and basketball. Therefore, I really think, if the NBA or the MLB are smart, they will think about expanding into this large untapped market in Vancouver. Canucks don't have to worry about losing any market or whatever because they these other pro teams will be attracting a brand new segment of fans and audiences.

I also agree that the NBA could tap into a huge market here in Vancouver. Too bad the previous management didn't look at the Asian Community (how stupid was that, until before it was too late). Would Acquilini consider buying a franchise (MLB, NBA) and incorporate that franchise into Canucks Sports and Entertainment (CSE), just like MLSE is doing with the Raptors, Blue Jays, etc?

I agree that among all the major sports leagues, MLS is the best bet right now. MLB could one day come, but unless we have a new stadium for baseball only, I doubt MLB will come to BC Place and play there. NBA could come back, with a smarter, and wiser management, and it could flourish here in this city. Asians (just look at China, HK, the Philippines, etc), if the Grizzlies had tapped into these people, and marketed their product to them, the NBA franchise would have been in better shape (this not counting the numerous amounts of "ridiculous" trades, drafting, etc).

I'm always hopeful that our city can get new franchises for our city. Gives us more sporting entertainment within the city, and it also puts our city on the sports world (because to be honest, we're not there).

Could the city support other major league sports, besides the NHL, and CFL?

Distill3d
Jan 15, 2009, 9:34 AM
I agree that among all the major sports leagues, MLS is the best bet right now. MLB could one day come, but unless we have a new stadium for baseball only, I doubt MLB will come to BC Place and play there....

I'm always hopeful that our city can get new franchises for our city. Gives us more sporting entertainment within the city, and it also puts our city on the sports world (because to be honest, we're not there).

Could the city support other major league sports, besides the NHL, and CFL?

Although players like José Canseco, Rickey Henderson, Jason Giambi, and Sammy Sosa have donned the Canadians uniform, I doubt that Vancouver could sustain an MLB team with Seattle so close. I think we are very well off with the Canadians being the farm club for the Oakland A's.

As for whether the city could support other major league sports besides the NHL and CFL, the Whitecaps DO play in a major league. its not the MLS, but it is still a major league. if the Whitecaps had a bigger stadium, no doubt they would fill the seats. considering Swangard only seats around 5300, the 'Caps averaged 5000/game last season.

Vancity
Jan 15, 2009, 9:56 AM
Although players like José Canseco, Rickey Henderson, Jason Giambi, and Sammy Sosa have donned the Canadians uniform, I doubt that Vancouver could sustain an MLB team with Seattle so close. I think we are very well off with the Canadians being the farm club for the Oakland A's.

As for whether the city could support other major league sports besides the NHL and CFL, the Whitecaps DO play in a major league. its not the MLS, but it is still a major league. if the Whitecaps had a bigger stadium, no doubt they would fill the seats. considering Swangard only seats around 5300, the 'Caps averaged 5000/game last season.

Just curious, but how would you define major league sports? I didn't know the USL Div-1 was a major league? Would the CFL be considered a major sports league?

Distill3d
Jan 15, 2009, 10:21 AM
Just curious, but how would you define major league sports? I didn't know the USL Div-1 was a major league? Would the CFL be considered a major sports league?

from my understanding USL-1 is the second tier in the soccer pyramid, however i would constitute it as a major league as USL-1 champions do not automatically move into MLS and the worst teams in the MLS do not move into USL-1. for all intents and purposes it is a separate league.

Vancity
Jan 15, 2009, 10:36 AM
from my understanding USL-1 is the second tier in the soccer pyramid, however i would constitute it as a major league as USL-1 champions do not automatically move into MLS and the worst teams in the MLS do not move into USL-1. for all intents and purposes it is a separate league.

Isn't a second tier league, a minor league, then? In my understanding, the CFL is a second-tier league to the NFL (the major sports league in North America). So in that respects, isn't the USL Division 1, a second tier to the MLS (the major sports league for soccer in North America)?

jlousa
Jan 15, 2009, 6:46 PM
When some of the teams in the USL are better the a chunk of the teams in the MSL I'm pretty sure that rules out being labeled as a minor league.

The CFL as well isn't a minor league, sure it's not as glam as the NFL but it's a different product in a different market.

Not sure why people still think that the NBA would've survived here if it had been marketed towards Asians. The problem for the Grizzilies was never people in the stands, they had better attendace then quite a bit of the other teams in the league. The problems arose after the team was offloaded, they had to pay rent to use GM Place, the Cad dollar sucked, the team had a hard time attracting players and mangement to the city for whatever reasons, and the new owner bought the team for the purpose of moving it. Heck I beleive we had 12.5K season ticket holders even at the end, a few more wouldn't have stoped what happened from happening.

twoNeurons
Jan 15, 2009, 7:39 PM
But I think going forward, it will be hard to argue that MLS is the big player. It's being marketed that way.

We don't need division in Soccer right now. We need a league that can attract some talent. I like the idea of bumping teams between USL and MLS but I don't think we quite have the talent to do so yet. In the Premier League, it can be argued that ever lower leagues have teams that are as good as many of the Premier league teams which is why they hop up and down the tiers as they get better.

Premier league obviously is where the money is, but there is no lack of talent in lower tiers. It's a little different in North American leagues, where talent is more concentrated in the one Pro-leaugue in each sport. NHL (WHL, AHL), NBAA (NCAA?), NFL.

It will be interesting to see how USL and MLS work out.

Vancity
Jan 15, 2009, 7:41 PM
When some of the teams in the USL are better the a chunk of the teams in the MSL I'm pretty sure that rules out being labeled as a minor league.

The CFL as well isn't a minor league, sure it's not as glam as the NFL but it's a different product in a different market.

Not sure why people still think that the NBA would've survived here if it had been marketed towards Asians. The problem for the Grizzilies was never people in the stands, they had better attendace then quite a bit of the other teams in the league. The problems arose after the team was offloaded, they had to pay rent to use GM Place, the Cad dollar sucked, the team had a hard time attracting players and mangement to the city for whatever reasons, and the new owner bought the team for the purpose of moving it. Heck I beleive we had 12.5K season ticket holders even at the end, a few more wouldn't have stoped what happened from happening.

So, if season ticket holders were not the problem, then what was the problem in that the Grizzlies moved to Memphis? I personally think any new team (in the future) that comes on board, need to establish some kind of grass roots programs, to reach kids, and youths, because really, if the new product (i.e. NBA, NLL, whatever it may be) in town wants to establish a growing fan base, they need to start with the next generation. Would this take some time? Yes, and it may start slow, but in the long term, it would benefit the organization/franchise, and the people they are trying to reach. It would, eventually, become a part of the culture, because they've been active in the community, and reaching people.

If the MLS comes to Vancouver, they could continue to use their grassroots programs, but really, for them it's not necessary, because soccer already has deep roots here in this city. It's almost as old as hockey here in this city. the roots are long, and firm. whereas, for basketball, or even baseball, or lacrosse for that matter (because the lacrosse community is so small in Van), need to establish grassroots programs to establish their product within the community.

Asians, particularly chinese people, are very interested in basketball, and Yao Ming has made a pretty good impression, and has made a lot of chinese people proud. Basketball is becoming more of a global sport, than it has been (of course, soccer is the #1 global sport) in the past. Some moves, such as trading Bibby for Nash (a few years ago) would've have done miracles for this franchise - just having a local boy here. Trading for Yao Ming would've done wonders for the city, simply because there is a firm root of chinese community here, but also because there is a growing interest in basketball fans of the NBA.

But all that is moot, because none of it happened. What I don't understand is why the NBA allowed the owner (Michael Heisley) to purchase the Grizzlies, with the sole purpose of moving the club after the season? Because of that, I hope Stern retires soon. The league is really going down under, under his leadership - errr...lack thereof.

Vancity
Jan 15, 2009, 7:52 PM
But I think going forward, it will be hard to argue that MLS is the big player. It's being marketed that way.

We don't need division in Soccer right now. We need a league that can attract some talent. I like the idea of bumping teams between USL and MLS but I don't think we quite have the talent to do so yet. In the Premier League, it can be argued that ever lower leagues have teams that are as good as many of the Premier league teams which is why they hop up and down the tiers as they get better.

Premier league obviously is where the money is, but there is no lack of talent in lower tiers. It's a little different in North American leagues, where talent is more concentrated in the one Pro-leaugue in each sport. NHL (WHL, AHL), NBAA (NCAA?), NFL.

It will be interesting to see how USL and MLS work out.

I think the concept is different between the Premier League, and the leagues that we have here in North America. You are right when you say that most of the talent (if not all of the talent) is concentrated in the major leagues - or, in other terms, the big leagues. That's why each major sport (NHL, NFL, NBA, MLS, etc) have all the top talents (maybe with the exception of the MLS - for now), and the other leagues i.e. CFL, USL, WHL, AHL, etc are considered minor leagues (lesser talent). They are leagues that either do not have the best talent in the continent, or they are developing the talent for the big leagues (kind of like how the Vancouver Canadians baseball team's players are being developed and can be called up by the big club - the Oakland A's).

The CFL, for example, cannot compete with the NFL (for some pretty obvious reasons, $$). An example is that whenever a player in the CFL has an opportunity to make it to the NFL, they do (i.e. Cam Wake), and when they don't, then come back to the CFL to play football (where else are they going to go?). CFL is, in my opinion because the NFL exists, is seen by many as a minor league, with second tier players, not the best. In the eyes of Canadians, however, the CFL is our major league (it's the best professional canadian football league in Canada).

I think the MLS will eventually attract the top tier players, whether they are getting older in age (i.e. Beckham) when they come over - well, that's another issue (not being able to attract the top tier players in their prime, like players from the Premier League). The USL, unless they can come up with better stadiums for their clubs, a better marketing ploy, etc., they will eventually succumb to becoming "known" (whether they are or not is a different story) as a minor league system for the MLS.

Rusty Gull
Jan 15, 2009, 8:57 PM
I watched the Canada Day game between the Whitecaps and Toronto FC, in Toronto. It was definitely "major league" -- from a sporting perspective, from a television perspective, and from a fan perspective.

If we can bring that back to Vancouver, in the way of the MLS, we will be very, very well served.

Like some above posters, I don't see a future for the other major leagues. The NFL will never move here because of the CFL; baseball is a lost cause, and most Vancouverites don't follow it closely enough to make a franchise viable; and there's too much bad blood following the NBA's departure 8 years ago.

I would argue that a Vancouver with the NHL and MLS, plus the tier-two leagues like the CFL, and then the smaller franchises like the Giants and the Canadians would make for a pretty good sports culture.

Vancity
Jan 15, 2009, 9:02 PM
I watched the Canada Day game between the Whitecaps and Toronto FC, in Toronto. It was definitely "major league" -- from a sporting perspective, from a television perspective, and from a fan perspective.

If we can bring that back to Vancouver, in the way of the MLS, we will be very, very well served.

Like some above posters, I don't see a future for the other major leagues. The NFL will never move here because of the CFL; baseball is a lost cause, and most Vancouverites don't follow it closely enough to make a franchise viable; and there's too much bad blood following the NBA's departure 8 years ago.

I would argue that a Vancouver with the NHL and MLS, plus the tier-two leagues like the CFL, and then the smaller franchises like the Giants and the Canadians would make for a pretty good sports culture.

I could see Vancouver getting a MLB franchise way down the road (past my lifetime), but I could see MLB being interested in Vancouver. The gateway to Asia, who wouldn't want to invest in Vancouver, and make it work? It's weird, besides hockey, we really haven't had a chance of having too much of a variety and vibrant sports culture (like Toronto having a variety of major league sports there).

Brings me to another question, would the Vancouver Canadians ever play in BC Place? I remember seeing an article that the Canadians were considering it for the future. hm.

Distill3d
Jan 15, 2009, 9:25 PM
i think if we take a serious look back at anything that is marketed to Asians, it'll just be another flash in the pan. we should seriously consider what would happen when the NBA novelty wears off again after 5 years in Vancouver? i mean, its eventually going to go the way of Pokemon and Tamiguchi Pets. its not a wise idea to just market to one specific crowd because they feel left out of the picture. NBA would have to be marketed to everyone in Vancouver as a viable sports alternative. any sport in Canada is going to have first compete with the NHL, the CFL, and then which ever CHL league is represented for that area (WHL, OHL, QMJHL).

MLS is the smartest approach. it would be taking a team with a pre-existing fan base, moving it into another league, and expanding the fan base.

one may have to consider that even if we were awarded an NBA franchise for 2011, it would be moving to Seattle for the 2013 season. for now, if you want to see a live NBA game though, Portland is only 5 hours and 15 minutes from GM Place...

Vancity
Jan 15, 2009, 9:55 PM
i think if we take a serious look back at anything that is marketed to Asians, it'll just be another flash in the pan. we should seriously consider what would happen when the NBA novelty wears off again after 5 years in Vancouver? i mean, its eventually going to go the way of Pokemon and Tamiguchi Pets. its not a wise idea to just market to one specific crowd because they feel left out of the picture. NBA would have to be marketed to everyone in Vancouver as a viable sports alternative. any sport in Canada is going to have first compete with the NHL, the CFL, and then which ever CHL league is represented for that area (WHL, OHL, QMJHL).

MLS is the smartest approach. it would be taking a team with a pre-existing fan base, moving it into another league, and expanding the fan base.

one may have to consider that even if we were awarded an NBA franchise for 2011, it would be moving to Seattle for the 2013 season. for now, if you want to see a live NBA game though, Portland is only 5 hours and 15 minutes from GM Place...

I'm not saying that we should just market to a specific crowd, but for the most part, the chinese population was probably left out. there was an article recently (someone posted it), and it said that the Grizzlies didn't reach the asian population in Vancouver until their last year, and by that time, it was too little, too late. I think it would have helped. that's why, like I mentioned before, the Grizzlies needed to have started a grassroots program for youths, and to be even more involved and active in the community. i'm not saying Vancouver will get an NBA franchise again, but it's not uncommon for the NBA to go back to the cities they've left. Maybe the league does come back, through relocation, or even a franchise down the road - when that time is - I don't know, but Vancouver can support an NBA team, an NHL team, a WHL team, and an MLS team, and maybe even an NLL team (a reborn Ravens team?). it's too bad that the fans in this city are "band-wagon" fans :(

I agree that MLS is the best approach to landing another major league franchise. and hopefully the MLS does grant Vancouver a franchise and starts soon :) i'd definitely be on board in supporting a new team in the city. i'm always supportive of major league teams coming in, and giving this city more sporting entertainment alternatives.

I would not drive all the way down to Portland to watch an NBA game. Sorry, bu it's just too far. Seattle, for me, was an alternative, before the Sonics left, but the Blazers are just too far. just too much of my time wasted driving down to watch a game. i'd rather watch it on tv.

jlousa
Jan 15, 2009, 10:26 PM
Vancity, you might now be old enough to remember but the Grizziles did everything you think they should of. They were heavily involved in both the Asian community and with youth. Heck they built a pratice facility in Richmond that was dedicated to their youth programs when not in use by the Grizzilies. The Grizzilies left because the new owner wanted them to. We will not get another NBA team anytime soon, although who knows 20yrs out. As for MLB I don't think ever, the truth is very few people care enough for baseball here, heck even most american cities are building smaller stadiums and attendance during weekday games are at almost alltime lows.

Vancity
Jan 15, 2009, 10:42 PM
Vancity, you might now be old enough to remember but the Grizziles did everything you think they should of. They were heavily involved in both the Asian community and with youth. Heck they built a pratice facility in Richmond that was dedicated to their youth programs when not in use by the Grizzilies. The Grizzilies left because the new owner wanted them to. We will not get another NBA team anytime soon, although who knows 20yrs out. As for MLB I don't think ever, the truth is very few people care enough for baseball here, heck even most american cities are building smaller stadiums and attendance during weekday games are at almost alltime lows.

Hey Jlousa. Yep, I remember the practice facility in Richmond. I always wondered why they built it so far from GM Place. I know that Heisley wanted the team to leave, it's too bad the NBA did leave, and your probably right in that the NBA will not return to vancouver, as long as (I think) stern is in charge. when Stern is gone (and he will step down eventually), I think there might be a chance the city can get the NBA back. there is always hope :)

As for MLB. one can dream, can't they? ;) it's too bad that there is not a market for baseball here. i quite enjoy it, and i'm probably the minority in that regards. well, at least the city might be getting an MLS franchise, that's something to look forward to. now only if they can get a stadium for the whitecaps built. if not in vancouver, they really should look elsewhere to build. downtown vancouver ain't the only place (although, probably ideal).

Distill3d
Jan 15, 2009, 10:46 PM
Vancouver can support an NBA team, an NHL team, a WHL team, and an MLS team, and maybe even an NLL team (a reborn Ravens team?). it's too bad that the fans in this city are "band-wagon" fans

could Vancouver support that many teams? do we really have the population base for it?

as for being bandwagon fans, thats true of any sports city. populations want a winning team, and can you blame them? so do owners, its more profitable.

if the Canucks were in the bottom 5 teams in the league for 5 years in a row, do you honestly think they would be able to sell as many season tickets and/or mechandise? and after 10 years in the basement, if the owners sold the team to investors in say Milwaukee, i'm sure only the small amount of loyal fans would care if a losing Canucks team relocated.

Vancity
Jan 15, 2009, 11:04 PM
could Vancouver support that many teams? do we really have the population base for it?

as for being bandwagon fans, thats true of any sports city. populations want a winning team, and can you blame them? so do owners, its more profitable.

if the Canucks were in the bottom 5 teams in the league for 5 years in a row, do you honestly think they would be able to sell as many season tickets and/or mechandise? and after 10 years in the basement, if the owners sold the team to investors in say Milwaukee, i'm sure only the small amount of loyal fans would care if a losing Canucks team relocated.

Well, among the list of leagues, we're already supporting the NHL (Canucks), WHL (Giants), CFL (Lions), and maybe, maybe the NLL (we'll see...maybe this proposal is already dead). But like a poster said earlier, the NLL is considered a "bush league", so really, out of the five that I've listed originally, we're already currently supporting 3 of them. we can support an NBA franchise, whether we do in a few years or 20 years - I dunno (probably the latter, if ever). But I believe there is a market for the NBA here in Vancouver. It can work, with some smart management.

Well, there are some really bad teams out there. The LA Clippers of the NBA have been a horrible team for many, many years. The Blue Jays have been mediocre-bad, the Atlanta Thrashers have been very bad. I think every city, of course, wants their teams to do well. when a city lands a team, they're proud of them, and that team represents their city. i remember when the canucks (hard to imagine) weren't doing so well, and were threatening to relocate to another city. could you imagine the sporting void in this city if the canucks, a major sporting entertainment, left? wow. craziness.

no team ever wants to support a bad team. i remembered following the Grizzlies, even at their worst. i'm a loyal fan, and i follow and support my vancouver teams :) am i disappointed when my teams don't do so well? of course, but that doesn't mean i "jump off" the bandwagon, only to get "on it" again when they're doing well. i'm supportive of them through thick and thin ^^ you have fans like that in certain cities. Boston is one of those cities, that's why it's such a great sports city.

metro vancouver's population is only going to get larger. it's not going to shrink, so I don't think it's much of a concern.

EastVanMark
Jan 16, 2009, 2:44 AM
When some of the teams in the USL are better the a chunk of the teams in the MSL I'm pretty sure that rules out being labeled as a minor league.

The CFL as well isn't a minor league, sure it's not as glam as the NFL but it's a different product in a different market.

Not sure why people still think that the NBA would've survived here if it had been marketed towards Asians. The problem for the Grizzilies was never people in the stands, they had better attendace then quite a bit of the other teams in the league. The problems arose after the team was offloaded, they had to pay rent to use GM Place, the Cad dollar sucked, the team had a hard time attracting players and mangement to the city for whatever reasons, and the new owner bought the team for the purpose of moving it. Heck I beleive we had 12.5K season ticket holders even at the end, a few more wouldn't have stoped what happened from happening.

The Grizzlies had 12,000 season tickets sold for year one of the franchise which was the last requirement to officially being granted a franchise. By the last season, they were rumored to only have about 6000 season ticket holders, heck even the Canucks didn't even have 12,000 season ticket holders back then. Also, the Grizzlies ticket count was grossly papered and they in the bottom 20% in actual tickets sold. Their "real" attendance was rumored to be anywhere from 9,000 a game to no higher than 12,000.

EastVanMark
Jan 16, 2009, 2:52 AM
Vancity, you might now be old enough to remember but the Grizziles did everything you think they should of. They were heavily involved in both the Asian community and with youth. Heck they built a pratice facility in Richmond that was dedicated to their youth programs when not in use by the Grizzilies. The Grizzilies left because the new owner wanted them to. We will not get another NBA team anytime soon, although who knows 20yrs out. As for MLB I don't think ever, the truth is very few people care enough for baseball here, heck even most american cities are building smaller stadiums and attendance during weekday games are at almost alltime lows.

Although they did do plenty with the youth of the area, the Grizzlies did nothing with the Asian community in terms of marketing.

jlousa
Jan 16, 2009, 5:01 AM
According to the stats Vancouvers attendance while not great was quite respectable here are the figures.

Vancouver Grizzlies 1995-96 41 17,183
Vancouver Grizzlies 1996-97 41 16,571
Vancouver Grizzlies 1997-98 41 16,109
Vancouver Grizzlies 1998-99 25 16,719
Vancouver Grizzlies 1999-00 41 13,899
Vancouver Grizzlies 2000-01 41 13,737

Memphis Grizzlies 2001-02 41 14,415
Memphis Grizzlies 2002-03 41 14,910
Memphis Grizzlies 2003-04 41 15,188
Memphis Grizzlies 2004-05 41 16,862

Pretty good considering the product that was put out and the fact the last 2 years everyone knew the team was on the verge of leaving. Sorry the stats source I found ended in 04-05 now sure what Memphis's current numbers are.

Heres some of the targeting they did for the asian population

"With a large Asian population, the team markets heavily to this demographic base. The Grizzlies also have the distinction of being the first team to broadcast its play by play in 3 different languages - English, Spanish and Mandarin!"

Yume-sama
Jan 16, 2009, 5:34 AM
Why Spanish and not... I don't know... French?

Kodii
Jan 16, 2009, 6:04 AM
"With a large Asian population, the team markets heavily to this demographic base. The Grizzlies also have the distinction of being the first team to broadcast its play by play in 3 different languages - English, Spanish and Mandarin!"
Am I wrong to say they screwed up their statistics and were probably better off broadcasting in Cantonese rather than Mandarin? Perhaps being from Abbotsford doesn't exactly do justice to my knowledge of the Asian population in Vancouver, Richmond, Burnaby etc, but just about all the Chinese people I know from there have their origins in Hong Kong...

Vancity
Jan 16, 2009, 6:31 AM
Am I wrong to say they screwed up their statistics and were probably better off broadcasting in Cantonese rather than Mandarin? Perhaps being from Abbotsford doesn't exactly do justice to my knowledge of the Asian population in Vancouver, Richmond, Burnaby etc, but just about all the Chinese people I know from there have their origins in Hong Kong...

Right on the money. A lot of the chinese population (at least in Richmond) have Cantonese origins, and are, for the most part, Cantonese speaking. Even in Vancouver, most of the chinese there are cantonese speaking (just go to chinatown). There are some Mandarin, and more of them are coming from mainland China, and Taiwan - but the Grizzlies probably missed the Cantonese speaking population, if they were broadcasting their games in Mandarin.

Vancity
Jan 16, 2009, 6:31 AM
Although they did do plenty with the youth of the area, the Grizzlies did nothing with the Asian community in terms of marketing.

Do you know specifically how they didn't market to the Asian community?

nova9
Jan 16, 2009, 6:45 AM
When I despair over sports in this city, I attend a giants game and all is better.

Admittedly, I am a bandwagoner (though I hate that term) for the Canucks but it's because I care too much and can't help but throw a temper tantrum every time they lose 10 in a row. I jump off but almost always immediately jump back on. Fans should be allowed to be angry and rant about the team WITHOUT being labelled a bandwagoner.

In terms of pro-sports in this city, I'm hoping for a MLS Whitecaps FC. I don't much care for anything else - especially not a MLB team, sorry vancity. NFL would be awesome but that's never going to happen unless for the remote chance (like 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%) chance that NFL absorbs CFL and all our teams change rules to match american football (lol).

Another sports angle would be to look at UBC and their NCAA ambitions.

Hong Kongese
Jan 16, 2009, 7:05 AM
Someone told me that the then Vancouver Grizzlies had a chance to draft Yao Ming but they didn't. If Yao Ming played for Vancouver, I can guaranteed that there would have been a full house at each game at GM place; half of the fans would be Chinese of course.

nova9
Jan 16, 2009, 7:08 AM
was yao ming even available for draft when the grizzlies were around?

Hong Kongese
Jan 16, 2009, 7:19 AM
was yao ming even available for draft when the grizzlies were around?

Yao Ming was already a professional player back then in China. It was not like he was a 15 years old kid waiting to get drafted. So i do believe that the Grizzlies had a chance to sign him as a free agent or something like that.

krudmonk
Jan 16, 2009, 7:28 AM
No disrespect but the NLL is pretty bush league. We might as well go after a WNBA team they would have roughly the same attendance.
It's the top tier of a legitimate sport, and all you care about is attendance?

Hong Kongese
Jan 16, 2009, 7:34 AM
I enjoy watching box lacrosse, imo, it is almost as exciting as the ice hockey.

Vancity
Jan 16, 2009, 9:05 AM
When I despair over sports in this city, I attend a giants game and all is better.

Admittedly, I am a bandwagoner (though I hate that term) for the Canucks but it's because I care too much and can't help but throw a temper tantrum every time they lose 10 in a row. I jump off but almost always immediately jump back on. Fans should be allowed to be angry and rant about the team WITHOUT being labelled a bandwagoner.

In terms of pro-sports in this city, I'm hoping for a MLS Whitecaps FC. I don't much care for anything else - especially not a MLB team, sorry vancity. NFL would be awesome but that's never going to happen unless for the remote chance (like 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%) chance that NFL absorbs CFL and all our teams change rules to match american football (lol).

Another sports angle would be to look at UBC and their NCAA ambitions.

I know how you feel about the Canucks. I'm a Canuck fan myself, and when I see them lose games, I'm not a happy camper, but there's more to life than Canuck games :) Hey, I just look at it from the perspective that, if they don't turn this slide they are currently on around, then they are going to lose their jobs. I'm not going to lose mine. Am I disappointed that they've forgotten pretty much how to play a hockey game? Yes. Do I believe that the 'Nucks are going to make the playoffs? Mmm...if they play like they did tonight, they're going to miss the postseason guaranteed. I don't care how well Luongo plays, if the team plays the way it did against Phoenix tonight - they deserved to get booed right off the ice. They'll win again...just not sure if they'll win enough to make the postseason. I'm supportive of the team, even if they have lost 6 in a row at home :(

I admit, MLB, while it would be nice, is a long shot, and a pipe dream - but a man can dream, can't he? ;) MLS I am surprisingly excited about the possibility that we can land a franchise for the 2011 season (fingers crossed!). Someone update us when they hears ANY KIND of news on it :) I'm not much of a soccer fan, but I have grown to appreciate the sport more and more, and if the Whitecaps land an MLS franchise, my excitement, and intrigue in the sport will only grow.

Everyone's in a bad mood, cause the Canucks lost 4-1, to the Coyotes. Sigh. The Canucks will bounce back! Have faith, friends :)

Distill3d
Jan 16, 2009, 9:32 AM
Everyone's in a bad mood, cause the Canucks lost 4-1, to the Coyotes. Sigh. The Canucks will bounce back! Have faith, friends :)

speak for yourself, my team just handed San Jose its first home loss of the season!!

at any rather though, aside from MLS and the possible return of the NLL, Vancouver isn't and wont be on any major league sports radars for a while. we still have to get through and have a successful and profitable Olympics before other major leagues take notice.

djmk
Jan 16, 2009, 4:46 PM
In terms of pro-sports in this city, I'm hoping for a MLS Whitecaps FC. I don't much care for anything else - especially not a MLB team, sorry vancity. NFL would be awesome but that's never going to happen unless for the remote chance (like 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%) chance that NFL absorbs CFL and all our teams change rules to match american football (lol).


i actually like the CFL game better. Larger field, less downs, more passing.... really, the NFL just has more teams and a heck of a lot more hype and money.

djmk
Jan 16, 2009, 4:49 PM
Someone told me that the then Vancouver Grizzlies had a chance to draft Yao Ming but they didn't. If Yao Ming played for Vancouver, I can guaranteed that there would have been a full house at each game at GM place; half of the fans would be Chinese of course.

yao ming drafted in the 2002 draft. Grizzlies moved to Memphis in 2001

Vancity
Jan 16, 2009, 6:43 PM
speak for yourself, my team just handed San Jose its first home loss of the season!!

at any rather though, aside from MLS and the possible return of the NLL, Vancouver isn't and wont be on any major league sports radars for a while. we still have to get through and have a successful and profitable Olympics before other major leagues take notice.

Haha..the Flames are doing pretty well. I can see them winning the Division, and going quite far in the playoffs. They have really been turning it on lately. The Canucks meanwhile - well, they're just stumbling, but they'll win on Sunday ;)

As for major league sports - I would consider the MLS as being a major league sporting event, and the NLL to a certain degree as well, even though it's quite small. It is the top tier league for its sport (lacrosse). I have a feeling we'll get the MLS for sure, though, because of the deep soccer roots Vancouver has. MLS can't screw that up. They need the support, and Vancouver would be willing to give them that (both financially, and in attendance). I really can't see the Whitecaps struggling attendance wise. They would pretty much sell out. If the Whitecaps secure an MLS franchise, they would pretty much almost go head-to-head with the Canucks. I can see them doing quite well both financially, and attendance wise too.

Hope Kerfoot will build his Soccer Specific Stadium soon, even if it's not in the downtown core, at least somewhere else (i.e. Richmond, Burnaby) - just not Surrey, because that's just too far. Richmond, or Burnaby are much closer alternatives.

Distill3d
Jan 16, 2009, 8:35 PM
Haha..the Flames are doing pretty well. I can see them winning the Division, and going quite far in the playoffs. They have really been turning it on lately. The Canucks meanwhile - well, they're just stumbling, but they'll win on Sunday ;)

As for major league sports - I would consider the MLS as being a major league sporting event, and the NLL to a certain degree as well, even though it's quite small. It is the top tier league for its sport (lacrosse). I have a feeling we'll get the MLS for sure, though, because of the deep soccer roots Vancouver has. MLS can't screw that up. They need the support, and Vancouver would be willing to give them that (both financially, and in attendance). I really can't see the Whitecaps struggling attendance wise. They would pretty much sell out. If the Whitecaps secure an MLS franchise, they would pretty much almost go head-to-head with the Canucks. I can see them doing quite well both financially, and attendance wise too.

Hope Kerfoot will build his Soccer Specific Stadium soon, even if it's not in the downtown core, at least somewhere else (i.e. Richmond, Burnaby) - just not Surrey, because that's just too far. Richmond, or Burnaby are much closer alternatives.

lets not get too far ahead of ourselves with the playoff prediction. historically speaking Calgary needs to bet Vancouver in the playoffs to make it to the Cup.

i agree. however, i would like to reiterate that the Whitecaps DO pretty much sell out every home game at Swangard, hence the need for a new stadium. as i've stated on another thread that if they don't build downtown, they should build next door to the New Westminster Quay in an effort to revitalize that area. that way its a win for both New Westminster, and Kerfoot and the Whitecaps get the waterfront stadium (and probably for a lot cheaper too!)

jlousa
Jan 16, 2009, 9:31 PM
Kerfoot is the one that wants it D/T, he has been courted by other cities already and is not interested. If the waterfront stadium does not happen then I think we'll just see them stay at BC Place.

D/T has a huge advantage of being able to attract lots of walk up fans which is what they are trying to attract.

Vancity
Jan 17, 2009, 9:49 AM
Kerfoot is the one that wants it D/T, he has been courted by other cities already and is not interested. If the waterfront stadium does not happen then I think we'll just see them stay at BC Place.

D/T has a huge advantage of being able to attract lots of walk up fans which is what they are trying to attract.

But is BC Place a Soccer Specific Stadium? They are going to share that stadium with the Lions, right? Unless the Lions have a plan of building their own stadium that we know nothing about. Just go to Richmond and build the stadium there! :D haha

If I understand correctly, I thought BC Place was only going to be a temporary solution, until they could get the go ahead with the construction of the waterfront stadium? but since it looks like the whitecaps waterfront stadium is looking more and more dead, they should look at other alternatives for their stadium. i know the downtown location is prime location, but if they aren't allowed to build it there, why continue to push through? Vancouver's lost is someone else's gain. move the project somewhere else. i'm not sure moving it to new westminster would be a great idea. i would rather move it to a place where it's a bit more stable (in terms of surrounding, i.e Burnaby, Richmond, etc)

If Kerfoot is having problems building the waterfront stadium, would this jeopardize their pursuit of an MLS franchise?

Vancity
Jan 17, 2009, 9:53 AM
lets not get too far ahead of ourselves with the playoff prediction. historically speaking Calgary needs to bet Vancouver in the playoffs to make it to the Cup.

i agree. however, i would like to reiterate that the Whitecaps DO pretty much sell out every home game at Swangard, hence the need for a new stadium. as i've stated on another thread that if they don't build downtown, they should build next door to the New Westminster Quay in an effort to revitalize that area. that way its a win for both New Westminster, and Kerfoot and the Whitecaps get the waterfront stadium (and probably for a lot cheaper too!)

Swangard is a pretty small (5,000+) stadium. If the Whitecaps had a 15,000-20,000 stadium, they could easily fill that stadium night in and night out. The fans are there, the support is there. I'd vote for Richmond, to build the stadium in. New West is a bit of trek out there, Richmond is only minutes away from Vancouver. I dunno...Richmond has my vote :) hehe

EastVanMark
Jan 18, 2009, 10:14 AM
When I despair over sports in this city, I attend a giants game and all is better.

Admittedly, I am a bandwagoner (though I hate that term) for the Canucks but it's because I care too much and can't help but throw a temper tantrum every time they lose 10 in a row. I jump off but almost always immediately jump back on. Fans should be allowed to be angry and rant about the team WITHOUT being labelled a bandwagoner.

Being angry or ranting about your favorite team just shows that you are passionate about your team. A true fan.

However doing things like not attending games, not watching on TV, throwing out your team's jersey in the garbage, only to retrieve it when the team starts winning again and telling everyone you know that you've been a true fan since day one. Now THAT is a bandwaggon jumper.;)

EastVanMark
Jan 18, 2009, 11:03 AM
According to the stats Vancouvers attendance while not great was quite respectable here are the figures.

Vancouver Grizzlies 1995-96 41 17,183
Vancouver Grizzlies 1996-97 41 16,571
Vancouver Grizzlies 1997-98 41 16,109
Vancouver Grizzlies 1998-99 25 16,719
Vancouver Grizzlies 1999-00 41 13,899
Vancouver Grizzlies 2000-01 41 13,737

Memphis Grizzlies 2001-02 41 14,415
Memphis Grizzlies 2002-03 41 14,910
Memphis Grizzlies 2003-04 41 15,188
Memphis Grizzlies 2004-05 41 16,862

Pretty good considering the product that was put out and the fact the last 2 years everyone knew the team was on the verge of leaving. Sorry the stats source I found ended in 04-05 now sure what Memphis's current numbers are.

Heres some of the targeting they did for the asian population

"With a large Asian population, the team markets heavily to this demographic base. The Grizzlies also have the distinction of being the first team to broadcast its play by play in 3 different languages - English, Spanish and Mandarin!"

Again, those attendance figures were heavily papered. Those counts included free tickets that were given away. i.e. they weren't purchased and they had no way of knowing if they were even being used. Ironically, right around the time when the team greatly curtailed the amounts of free tickets that were given away, the "attendance" magically fell and then stayed pretty much the same the following season.

"With a large Asian population, the team markets heavily to this demographic base"- this was from a group who visited several sports venues who maybe spent 3 days in Vancouver. They hardly would know who the Grizzlies did or didn't market to. The broadcast thing was an idea brought to Orca Bay by international broadcasting students which continues to this day with Canuck telecasts.

EastVanMark
Jan 18, 2009, 11:28 AM
Do you know specifically how they didn't market to the Asian community?


Cause for starters, their are SEVERAL Asian basketball leagues that play in and around the lower mainland that were never supported in any shape or form by the Grizzlies management. That's HUNDREDS of basketball playing Asians. Not to mention the numerous Asian student organizations, or cultural societies which are throughout the region.

The Grizzlies DID do a promotion involving the Asian community in I believe their final season which produced one of if not THEE largest crowd of the season. Sadly this came much too late. If something along those lines had been attempted in season one rather than the last one, maybe the Grizzlies would have ridden out the bad times and cashed in when the Canucks became popular again much in the same way that the Raptors do in Toronto. But we'll never know...

isaidso
Mar 9, 2009, 3:47 PM
As far as basketball is concerned, Vancouver is no Nova Scotia. Toronto isn't either. Toronto can support basketball due to its huge population, but Nova Scotia is really the only place in Canada where basketball is part of the culture. Too bad Halifax wasn't 4 times bigger, for the NBA would surely be there already.