Metrolinx Open House Needs High Turnout

[ryan_mcgreal]

This Thursday, October 30, 2008, Metrolinx will host an Open House from 5:00 PM to 7:00 PM at the Hamilton Convention Centre - Websters Room, 1 Summers Lane (at Main St. W.) in Hamilton.

It is vitally important that as many Hamilton residents attend as possible so that Metrolinx can see firsthand the strong public support for light rail rapid transit.

The Metrolinx mandate is to fund regional transportation projects that are transformational, not just incremental. We need to argue that BRT is only an incremental improvement on the rapid transit B-Line we already have, and will have only a minimal impact on ridership and economic development.

Light rail, by contrast, is truly transformational in the manner that Metrolinx envisions. It dramatically increases ridership, entices developers to invest in the transit corridor, and allows the HSR to redeploy its buses to improve transit across the entire city.

Metrolinx needs to see that public support for light rail remains strong - that last summer's enthusiasm was not just a flash in the pan, and that the community is united in its support. If they hold this meeting and the turnout is high, that in itself will lower the political risk for them to commit to big spending here in the near term.

Please help spread the word and try to attend if possible.

http://raisethehammer.org/blog/1136

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

This Thursday, October 30, 2008, Metrolinx will host an Open House from 5:00 PM to 7:00 PM at the Hamilton Convention Centre - Websters Room, 1 Summers Lane (at Main St. W.) in Hamilton.

It is vitally important that as many Hamilton residents attend as possible so that Metrolinx can see firsthand the strong public support for light rail rapid transit.

The Metrolinx mandate is to fund regional transportation projects that are transformational, not just incremental. We need to argue that BRT is only an incremental improvement on the rapid transit B-Line we already have, and will have only a minimal impact on ridership and economic development.

Light rail, by contrast, is truly transformational in the manner that Metrolinx envisions. It dramatically increases ridership, entices developers to invest in the transit corridor, and allows the HSR to redeploy its buses to improve transit across the entire city.

Metrolinx needs to see that public support for light rail remains strong - that last summer's enthusiasm was not just a flash in the pan, and that the community is united in its support. If they hold this meeting and the turnout is high, that in itself will lower the political risk for them to commit to big spending here in the near term.

Please help spread the word and try to attend if possible.

http://raisethehammer.org/blog/1136

Great job Ryan. I will be there and will bring some people with me. :notacrook:

[crhayes]

This Thursday, October 30, 2008, Metrolinx will host an Open House from 5:00 PM to 7:00 PM at the Hamilton Convention Centre - Websters Room, 1 Summers Lane (at Main St. W.) in Hamilton.

It is vitally important that as many Hamilton residents attend as possible so that Metrolinx can see firsthand the strong public support for light rail rapid transit.

The Metrolinx mandate is to fund regional transportation projects that are transformational, not just incremental. We need to argue that BRT is only an incremental improvement on the rapid transit B-Line we already have, and will have only a minimal impact on ridership and economic development.

Light rail, by contrast, is truly transformational in the manner that Metrolinx envisions. It dramatically increases ridership, entices developers to invest in the transit corridor, and allows the HSR to redeploy its buses to improve transit across the entire city.

Metrolinx needs to see that public support for light rail remains strong - that last summer's enthusiasm was not just a flash in the pan, and that the community is united in its support. If they hold this meeting and the turnout is high, that in itself will lower the political risk for them to commit to big spending here in the near term.

Please help spread the word and try to attend if possible.

http://raisethehammer.org/blog/1136

I will be there too! I will try and bring some friends.

[emge]

I'll be there with a few more people, hopefully.

[go_leafs_go02]

I'm on the fence on attending. We shall see.

What's stopping me? haha. "the office"

[crhayes]

I think I got a couple friends coming.

I think if you ask people and they seem like they are on the fence (as in, they 'don't really care') show them a picture of LRT and say "would you rather have this stopping at Gore Park or a bus?" (it worked for me).

PS -I know people are striving to have transit moved out of Gore Park...I just said it cause it's easier for people to relate to :P

[crhayes]

I'm on the fence on attending. We shall see.

What's stopping me? haha. "the office"

Lol as in the show? That is no excuse to miss this!! haha

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

.............Let's bring the --->"R"<--- back to the HSR!

[ryan_mcgreal]

What's stopping me? haha. "the office"

Just PVR it and watch it after you get home.

[raisethehammer]

Lol as in the show? That is no excuse to miss this!! haha

hmmm, so I crack an almost identical joke last night about 'the office' and our anal mods deleted it.
I even included the usual 'LOL'.

I'm going to go start a new poll asking who thinks we should get rid of the mods and go back to the good old days when we were allowed to chat like human beings, including the odd joke. This isn't frickin China.

[crhayes]

hmmm, so I crack an almost identical joke last night about 'the office' and our anal mods deleted it.
I even included the usual 'LOL'.

I'm going to go start a new poll asking who thinks we should get rid of the mods and go back to the good old days when we were allowed to chat like human beings, including the odd joke. This isn't frickin China.

Good thing man or someone might snipe you....it looks like you have some enemies :| lol

[highwater]

I was waffling because I have a busy night tomorrow, but after the Spec's lame attempt at 'balance' http://thespec.com/article/457281 this morning, I'll move heaven and earth to get there.

Why they felt the need to waste so much space and ink (big colour photo on the opinons page, no less) on Cal di Falco's surprisingly substance-free contribution to the LRT discussion, this week of all weeks, I'll never know.

[adam]

Lets all send Cam DiFalco an email and let him know there are many educated residents who see that he didn't do much research before writing the article.

[highwater]

Ya know, now that I think about it, perhaps there's method in their madness. Just like their half-hearted 'endorsement' of DiIanni helped throw the election to Fred, perhaps they are praising LRT with faint damning - if you get my drift. Maybe they included the sexy shot of happy people getting off an LRT to undermine Cal's half-hearted 'argument'. Or maybe I'm just rationalizing my subscription.

[highwater]

Lets all send Cam DiFalco an email and let him know there are many educated residents who see that he didn't do much research before writing the article.

Be polite. Cal's a good guy who only wants what's best for Hamilton. But he sure didn't think that article through.

[adam]

His article has no proof of the sweeping statements he makes. This discredits the article. I don't think it should be considered impolite to point this out. Unfortunately most people will believe anything in print, that's why I sent him an email voicing my concerns.

[raisethehammer]

sad stuff if Cal actually does work for the province. Yikes.

[Jon Dalton]

I'm going. Regarding the spec letter the biggest mistake there is arguing the lack of destinations point. The B-line is at capacity already so we can justify it on ridership alone, in fact that's one of the key points being made to metrolinx. Also, jobs in the CBD are the determining factor for light rail viability in studies elsewhere, and I expect we have enough of them. Does anyone have numbers for this?

[hamtransithistory]

I'll be there, I've even registered.

(Hell, I have to. My website is about transit history, and better to make history than to be history.)

[astroblaster]

i plan on coming as well

[adam]

The article on the front page of the spec written by Mr. DiFalco was perhaps taken out of context. Consider an article he wrote in 2007 about Hamilton revitilization here (http://www.thespec.com/article/193248). Many recommendations are made, many of which fell upon deaf ears..

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

Lets all send Cam DiFalco an email and let him know there are many educated residents who see that he didn't do much research before writing the article.

Cal is a great guy. I had the pleasure of sitting down and meeting with him recently and he's one of the smartest persons I've ever come across. Don't under-estimate him.

Cal has one thing in common with all of us and that is he lives in Hamilton and is proud to call Hamilton home and wants nothing but the best for Hamilton. So, if there's some sort of common ground that we can all establish here with all of this it is that.

Obviously, where some of us have a difference of opinion is how we go about changing and making things better for our city. Cal has a "game plan" already planned out that he would like to see take place.

As for me personally, I like LRT for Hamilton. I don't think it's the whole solution for our city's woes but I think having the LRT here in town would be a HUGE step in that direction...economic prosperity.

If you're going to be sending e-mail to Cal great just keep it clean. Cussing and cursing is no way for you to swing his opinion on the matter. That method never works.

[adam]

I've already received a response back as you can tell from my last post. He directed me to the article i linked. Apparently the spec took the article out of context.

[SteelTown]

All aboard
Metrolinx in Hamilton this evening to hear input on transit proposals

October 30, 2008
Rob Faulkner
The Hamilton Spectator

Can't win if you don't show up.

It's like a motto for recent light rail transit boosters as they rally the troops to show Metrolinx that Hamilton wants an LRT system.

The transportation agency is in town tonight for an open house to hear input on its proposed transit plans for Hamilton and Toronto.

In its 25-year, $50-billion draft plan, Hamilton is slated to get four rapid-transit lines. An east-west B line is shortlisted as a priority in the first 15 years of the plan. Whether bus or rail is not decided.

Ryan McGreal of the group Hamilton Light Rail e-mailed several hundred people about tonight; signs went up at Gore Park, the GO station and McMaster University.

He wants to hear how Metrolinx will decide whether Hamilton gets rail or bus rapid transit, and how the city fits as a priority with Toronto in the mix.

"There is a tendency in Hamilton to go, 'Oh, it's not going to work,'" McGreal says.

"We have to go into this in an optimistic manner, not thinking, 'How are they going to put the screws to us this time?'"

Jill Stephen, the city's manager of strategic planning working on rapid transit, helped spread the word about tonight with a rapid transit newsletter to 1,900 subscribers.

"We have continually told Metrolinx that we have a lot of public support and a lot of interest," she says. "A good-sized crowd will demonstrate that."

The city says it can have shovels in the ground for LRT by 2011; Metrolinx chair Rob MacIsaac has hinted that Hamilton funding will surface in the latter years of the 2009-13 budget, which is to come this fall, and then ramp up.

November is a busy month for Metrolinx. On Nov. 3, board members (including Mayor Fred Eisenberger) have a private retreat to discuss recommendations and analysis going into the final regional transportation plan.

Public input on Metrolinx draft documents closes Nov. 14. On Nov. 21, the final plan goes to board members; on Nov. 25 or 26, the plan goes public online; on Nov. 28, the board votes on whether to approve the final transportation plan.

Durham regional chair Roger Anderson is concerned that a two-week gap -- from Nov. 14 to 28 -- gives Metrolinx little chance to respond to late-arriving ideas.

"What happens if somebody comes up with some great idea that hasn't been thought of yet that's not in the plan, or has to do with the financial implications of the plan?" he asked.

"If staff at Metrolinx aren't willing to amend it because they want the plan passed by the end of November, that's going to create a problem."

MacIsaac suggests that any comments should be made soon.

[ryan_mcgreal]

His article has no proof of the sweeping statements he makes.

He scarcely even makes any sweeping statements. The whole thing is a blandly obligatory contrarian polemic that doesn't actually go anywhere. He may as well have saved some ink and simply written, "People are excited about light rail. On the other hand, meh."

The closest he gets to taking a firm position is: "Hamilton remains a city with a failing downtown core". As a person who works right downtown, I simply disagree with this. Parts of downtown are doing badly, while other parts are doing very well and steadily improving. It's facile and unhelpful to dismiss the entire downtown core with a hazy generalization that hasn't actually been true for years.

He writes, "The underlying thought is that light rail will serve as a 'magic bullet' of sorts that will ignite our economy." In fact, the only people I've seen who have used the term "magic bullet" are detractors and squelchers attacking a straw man. Modern rapid transit is one part - albeit a critical one - of a broad urban "renaissance" to use Fred Eisenberger's term.

He writes: "We should think of a light-rail system as a staged implementation and, within that model, we should ensure that the first installations of light rail arrive in an environment that is equally able to seize the opportunity that light rail offers." I don't even know what this means. I'm not sure Di Falco knows either.

If he means that we should build that east-west B-Line first and rezone the transit corridor for dense, mixed use development, the city already plans to do exactly this.

[highwater]

He writes: "We should think of a light-rail system as a staged implementation and, within that model, we should ensure that the first installations of light rail arrive in an environment that is equally able to seize the opportunity that light rail offers." I don't even know what this means. I'm not sure Di Falco knows either.

If he means that we should build that east-west B-Line first and rezone the transit corridor for dense, mixed use development, the city already plans to do exactly this.

Exactly. He basically refutes his own argument with that line. Main and/or King already ARE environments that are able to seize the opportunity. If we converted to two-way tomorrow they'd be ready to seize THAT opportunity as well. I think Di Falco has a bit of an agenda here. He envisions some grand all-encompassing 'master plan' and doesn't want to see any projects happening outside of that context. But that's not how cities work. Cities are organic, and in any case, we HAVE a plan: Vision 2020. LRT is one of the few projects undertaken by the city that actually comply with it.

[ryan_mcgreal]

He envisions some grand all-encompassing 'master plan' and doesn't want to see any projects happening outside of that context.

This is a strong case of the inevitable tension between the perfect and the good. Top-down planners aim for the perfect, but the people who actually get things done - think, for example of Gil Penalosa - start with a broad sense of what is needed, shoot from the hip to get things rolling and then iterate to hone in on successes. (Sorry for the mixed metaphors there.)

Obviously you can't built a light rail system by shooting from the hip, but the planning involved is neither uncertain nor controversial. It's complicated but not complex, and we have abundant examples of successful implementations to guide us (and we also have one or two examples of unsuccessful implementations as cautionary object lessons).

Likewise with updating the transit corridor zoning to leverage the LRT as an investment magnet, the way forward is simple, clear, and very well understood. We even have an excellent implementation of TOD zoning that's close enough to visit and study firsthand: the King-Spadina Plan that has been so remarkably successful in restoring investment, vitality and density to that part of Toronto.

Again, when you strip out the plannerese, the rules are surprisingly straightforward:

1. Build to the sidewalk
2. Open onto the street
3. No parking requirements
4. Parking must be inside or behind the building
5. Buildings should be broadly compatible in height with their neighbours (with the stated intention of increasing overall height and density).
6. Use the property the way you want as long as the use is not harmful to neighbours.

We absolutely don't need to wait for an all-encompassing plan to get started on these two initiatives (three if you include painting a yellow line down the middle of our one-way streets).

[adam]

Great posts - I wish that would have gone as an article on the front page of the spec instead.

[raisethehammer]

how was the meeting?? I really wanted to come, but was tied up until 9.

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

how was the meeting?? I really wanted to come, but was tied up until 9.

Meeting was a huge success, great turn-out Hamilton!

It was great to be there and share thoughts, concerns and ideas with members of Metrolinx.

[Jon Dalton]

I crashed my bike and spent the whole night at st. joe's. That's a fail.

I really hope the turnout was good and Hamilton spoke up. Someone fill me in?

whoops your message got there before mine (typing is hard). Glad to hear that Boomtown.

[ryan_mcgreal]

I crashed my bike and spent the whole night at st. joe's. That's a fail.

I'm really sorry to hear that! Are you okay?

I really hope the turnout was good and Hamilton spoke up. Someone fill me in?

According to organizers, 140 people showed up. The only meeting that has had a higher turnout was Toronto, which had 145-150 (with five times the total population).

I only stayed for the open house, but from talking to people who stayed for the workshop, it was apparently very slick and managed top-down, with no opportunity for direct Q&A from the attendees.

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

After the open house portion which lasted 2 hours we then had some round table discussions. Each table had a rep from Metrolinx guiding the dialogue in the group and taking notes from each of the participants.

LRT for Hamilton is great but when you look at their 25 year projection and how much, or how little, Hamilton will be getting in comparison to the GTA that to me was the biggest dissapointment. Toronto gets the cake and Hamilton gets the crumbs. Everything with Metrolinx seems to be too Toronto and Union station centralized in many people's opinions this evening. There's even talk of St.Catharines and Niagara region wanting in and being included in these discussions especially when looking 25 years down the line and into the future.

[flar]

Toronto gets the cake and Hamilton gets the crumbs.

That's the way it's been, and that's the way it will be. Toronto's the big smoke and will always treat Hamilton like its inbred half brother. I think Hamilton has to make its own way in the world. We have to think of ways to increase the tax base in order to increase our ability to make things happen without having to depend on Toronto-centric agencies.

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

That's the way it's been, and that's the way it will be. Toronto's the big smoke and will always treat Hamilton like its inbred half brother. I think Hamilton has to make its own way in the world. We have to think of ways to increase the tax base in order to increase our ability to make things happen without having to depend on Toronto-centric agencies.

I agree. This is why the other day on another thread I was suggesting that the city of Hamilton along with many of the cities around us in this part of the province need to form a new alliance separate from GTA and Metrolinx to better serve our transportation needs. In this new alliance I would include the technology triangle of Kitchener-Waterloo region, Cambridge and Guelph plus Burlington to the north, Brantford to the south and St. Catharines and Niagara Falls to the east. This doesn't mean that I don't think Hamilton should not be included and a part of Metrolinx, all I'm suggesting here is we seriously consider creating another organization similar to the Metrolinx to serve the folks better down in this part of the province.

As long as Hamilton continues to rely on Toronto and GTA to come through with our transportation needs all we'll get from these guys is the short-end of the stick and empty promises.

We need to start to take control of our own destiny and future here in Hamilton. We need to form a brand new transportation alliance that's Hamilton centralized.

[Jon Dalton]

Ryan - Thanks, I'm ok but mega pissed that it happened when it did. I can't believe we had as many people as Toronto.

Regarding the toronto situation, I would not hold that against them, in fact I'm floored that we are potentially getting two LRT routes as part of their scheme. And trains every 5 minutes - that's better than Paris has anywhere in their interurban network. Toronto IS the centre of the universe as far as their mandate extends.

What Hamilton will gain from this 25 year plan is the boost it needs to develop it's own resource pool to function as a sub-centre within the GTA. With a solid base of educated people and diverse business and industry, development as a transportation hub will follow. We can't be a transportation hub when a third of us have to commute out of town for work.

[SteelTown]

'Can't ignore city's plea for LRT'

October 31, 2008
Daniel Nolan
The Hamilton Spectator

The head of the Hamilton Chamber of Commerce's transport committee is confident the city will get its funding for rapid transit from Metrolinx sooner rather than later.

Hamilton is not as far along as other municipalities in the GTA and it has been hinted it will receive funding for transit in the latter years of a 2009-2013 budget.

Dan Rodrigues acknowledges it is a "struggle," but believes Metrolinx can't ignore the city's plea for light rail transit (LRT).

"I don't think they can ignore us," he said last night at an open house hosted by Metrolinx on its proposed plans for Hamilton and the Greater Toronto Area.

"Council has shown unanimous support for LRT and that speaks volumes to Metrolinx." There's one vision, he said.

Mindful that regions such as York are farther ahead than Hamilton in having rapid transit, Rodrigues said that should not matter because Metrolinx should not "be looking at local, but globally."

"We cannot restrict just looking at Hamilton, but how the GTA/ Hamilton are doing. We all need to survive and prosper."

More than 100 people attended the open house at the Hamilton Convention Centre. It was the last of seven such meetings across the GTA/Hamilton and officials said it was the third best attended after two meetings in Toronto.

In Metrolinx's 25-year, $50-billion plan, Hamilton is slated to get four rapid transit lines. An east-west B line is short-listed as a priority in the first 15 years of the plan. Whether it becomes bus or rail is not decided, but there is definite support for rail in the community.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger attended the meeting and received loud applause from the crowd when he reported city council voted Wednesday night to support a LRT system.

Rob MacIsaac, chair of Metrolinx, said he was "totally impressed" with the "level of engagement for LRT in Hamilton," but he and other Metrolinx officials said there are other considerations such as affordability.

While many see LRT running on Main Street, MacIsaac said officials would look at running it along the existing east-west TH&B line. He noted, however, that would miss out on stimulating development along a street.

[raisethehammer]

poor MacIsaac...I get the sense he's being run out here constantly as the whipping boy from Metrolinx. I get the feeling he's experiencing first-hand now what we've always known - these TO organization don't get us, don't care about us and are clueless.

Apparently we've done a good job at educating the hamilton public and council of the fact that LRT is EcDev first, then transit.
Metrolinx apparently needs to be educated now too.
To suggest the THB line is ridiculous. I don't see them telling York or TO where to run their subways/LRT's.
The lack of redevelopment along Main/King would make LRT a huge failure. Running it along the THB line would be just that.

[markbarbera]

poor MacIsaac...I get the sense he's being run out here constantly as the whipping boy from Metrolinx. I get the feeling he's experiencing first-hand now what we've always known - these TO organization don't get us, don't care about us and are clueless.

Apparently we've done a good job at educating the hamilton public and council of the fact that LRT is EcDev first, then transit.
Metrolinx apparently needs to be educated now too.
To suggest the THB line is ridiculous. I don't see them telling York or TO where to run their subways/LRT's.
The lack of redevelopment along Main/King would make LRT a huge failure. Running it along the THB line would be just that.

I don't think it''s very fair to generalize the Metrolinx organization in this manner. First off, I see no problem with considering routes other than along Main. An open mind on the possible routes must be kept. A seperated-grade route like the TH&B line does offer a dedicated rapid transit line more like a subway route, something that could not be achieved on Main. And, if LRT is not on Main that keeps alive the option to convert Main to two-way traffic, something that would not be likely to happen if LRT was to run along it. I'm not saying that it is a preferrable route, but lets not limit our options. Examine the pros and cons of at least three different routes, then make an informed decision based on a fair and objective analysis.

Metrolinx is not treating Hamilton any different than Toronto as it examines transit potential in these cities. In fact, Metrolinx has put forward proposals that are not supported by TTC, such as Metrolink's sugestion to revive the idea of developing a subway along Eglington and Queen Streets in Toronto, something TTC does not really want to explore. Metrolinx is forcing the old-school transit providers to think differently when strategizing transit development, and this is really a good thing to see happening.

[raisethehammer]

I agree to a point, but we've already looked into the THB line here last year and it was deemed impossible due to the freight that still uses the line.
It sounds like an off-the cuff idea that was tossed out with no knowledge of studies that have already taken place.

As for their TO bias, I see no evidence to agree with your position that I'm 'unfairly generalizing' Metrolinx.
They've been singing a different tune (a worse tune) each time they send MacIsaac to visit.
It'll be just like the PanAm games fiasco. Soon we'll be begging for scraps while Toronto gets all sorts of goodies and treats.

[adam]

Remember that growth and development don't happen along a speeding car or a speed train for that matter. Growth will only happen along each stop or "hub" and spread out radially. Having the line on Main St will encourage street level growth and fill vacant buildings with businesses and people. What could possibly be better for the city?

[highwater]

I agree to a point, but we've already looked into the THB line here last year and it was deemed impossible due to the freight that still uses the line.
It sounds like an off-the cuff idea that was tossed out with no knowledge of studies that have already taken place.

I was chatting with one of the Metrolinx people last night and he specifically said that it can't be combined with freight, it does seem bizarre how that ever got on the table.

[omro]

Remember that growth and development don't happen along a speeding car or a speed train for that matter. Growth will only happen along each stop or "hub" and spread out radially. Having the line on Main St will encourage street level growth and fill vacant buildings with businesses and people. What could possibly be better for the city?

:previous: Totally agree, but having wandered around the city these past weeks, am more convinced both should be on Main. ;)

[SteelTown]

Perhaps Metrolinx envision removing GO Trains from the current GO Station to James St North and replacing the current GO Station with the main East-West LRT stop/station.

[highwater]

According to the gentleman I spoke to, the plan is to split GO service between Hunter and LIUNA because Hunter can't handle the capacity their envisioning.

[adam]

Agreed Omro, both LRT directions along Main would be great for the downtown!

[HAMRetrofit]

Soon we'll be begging for scraps while Toronto gets all sorts of goodies and treats.

Wrong its the 905 taking the big chunks of this. Toronto and Hamilton will be left with the scraps.

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

According to the gentleman I spoke to, the plan is to split GO service between Hunter and LIUNA because Hunter can't handle the capacity their envisioning.

According to one of the Metrolinx reps I was talking to he said that when they split the Go service between Hunter and LIUNA, LIUNA line would be the one used to get folks down to Niagara Falls...they envision extending Go Transit service down to the Falls area in the future.

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

Ryan - Thanks, I'm ok but mega pissed that it happened when it did. I can't believe we had as many people as Toronto.

Regarding the toronto situation, I would not hold that against them, in fact I'm floored that we are potentially getting two LRT routes as part of their scheme. And trains every 5 minutes - that's better than Paris has anywhere in their interurban network. Toronto IS the centre of the universe as far as their mandate extends.

What Hamilton will gain from this 25 year plan is the boost it needs to develop it's own resource pool to function as a sub-centre within the GTA. With a solid base of educated people and diverse business and industry, development as a transportation hub will follow. We can't be a transportation hub when a third of us have to commute out of town for work.

Actually, we can be a transportation hub if you consider that in the future its quite possible that cities like Kitchener-Waterloo, Cambridge, Guelph to our West as well as St.Catharines and Niagara Falls to our East may be a part of the Metrolinx. One of the Metrolinx reps was telling me last night that the folks down in St. Kitts and Niagara want in on these talks with Metrolinx but so far they've been excluded.

[matt602]

Wrong its the 905 taking the big chunks of this. Toronto and Hamilton will be left with the scraps.

Seconded, although reluctantly. Toronto is getting a pretty large chunk even still.