Pedestrian killed today on Main at James

[coalminecanary]

don't know the details but if it's true, this is sad, pointless, avoidable, sickening...etc
http://hammerboard.ca/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=325

[thistleclub]

From the Spec.com:

Fatal crash closes downtown streets (http://www.thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/453609)

Hamilton police have closed portions of downtown after a fatal accident.

Witnesses say a young woman stepped out onto James Street near Main Street shortly after 12:30 p.m. and was hit by a truck.

Main Street remains closed between Bay and Hughson. James Street is closed between King and Jackson.

The coroner has been called to the scene. The Collision Reconstruction Unit is also investigating.

[Jon Dalton]

Someone got hit at the exact same place two weekends ago

[markk]

I walked by the scene on my way to the bank this afternoon (TCU on James St). It was a very sad sight, and perhaps a very somber reminder that freeways just don't belong in urban environments.

[markbarbera]

Sad to see. The accident looks to have occurred on James Street just north of Main, so I don't think the freeway extrapolation is really fair in this case.

[Millstone]

Does anybody have any details on this accident? Roads don't just kill people by themselves.

[ryan_mcgreal]

At a vehicle speed of 32 km/h, the fatality rate for pedestrians hit is five percent.

At 48 km/h, the fatality rate is 50 percent.

At 64 km/h, the fatality rate is over 90 percent.

Just saying.

[go_leafs_go02]

I'll wait to give my statement on this, because we don't know how it happened.

If she stepped out trying to run and catch something like a bus, we shouldn't be blaming the city. If it is the woman's fault, then yeah, don't blame high speed limits.

However, if a truck ran a red light and stuck her, that's a completely different ballgame. Just this could happen anywhere, at any place, at any time really. Speed obviously is a factor, but if it happened on James St. that's a different argument compared to Main.

My condolences rest with the family however.

[Millstone]

There's kind of a bump at James that needs to be smoothed out. The synchronized lights do promote racing to the next light also.

So what is the course of action here? Desync all the lights, driver education, higher enforcement, more "LED eyes" like SW King & Dundurn?

[adam]

When a motorist comes off the highway in many cities, there are visual cues that set off bells in their head saying "you are no longer on a highway"

Unfortunately, Main and King are just as wide (or wider) than the 403 and this transition never happens.

[raisethehammer]

I'll wait to give my statement on this, because we don't know how it happened.

If she stepped out trying to run and catch something like a bus, we shouldn't be blaming the city. If it is the woman's fault, then yeah, don't blame high speed limits.

However, if a truck ran a red light and stuck her, that's a completely different ballgame. Just this could happen anywhere, at any place, at any time really. Speed obviously is a factor, but if it happened on James St. that's a different argument compared to Main.

My condolences rest with the family however.

I won't wait:
FREEWAYS DON'T BELONG IN DOWNTOWN NEIGHBOURHOODS.
I don't care what colour the light was or who stepped out or ran which light.
She was killed INSTANTLY and it was a gross scene according to police. That's what happens when someone tries to run across the QEW.
This is the heart of the city, James and Main. One block from the Gore. Pedestrians shouldn't have to navigate downtown sidewalks as though they are walking along the side of the 401.
As Ryan McGreal states above, the rate of death lowers drastically as the speed is decreased.
I'd like to know what speed is necessary to cause instant death and a bloody, gross scene that needs to be covered up instantly in order to not traumatize passersby.

[Millstone]

I don't care what colour the light was or who stepped out or ran which light.


Then nobody in their right mind should care about your opinion. To hell with the "facts", raisethehammer's here to jump on the cars-are-bad bandwagon! :sly:

[raisethehammer]

no, I'm here to jump on the 'speeding cars aided by synchronized lights through the heart of downtown are bad' bandwagon.
Read the post before wasting our time.

[hmagazine]

Then nobody in their right mind should care about your opinion. To hell with the "facts", raisethehammer's here to jump on the cars-are-bad bandwagon! :sly:

:koko:

[FairHamilton]

gross scene that needs to be covered up instantly in order to not traumatize passersby.

They are usually covered no matter the circumstance and condition of the victim out of respect to the departed.

[raisethehammer]

They are usually covered no matter the circumstance and condition of the victim out of respect to the departed.

very true, but when do you recall the police using such strong language to depict a worse-than-usual scene? They don't throw around words like that everyday.
IMO that SHOULD NOT be able to happen downtown because nobody should be going fast enough to cause such horrific damage.
You'll recall over in your neighbourhood someone was sliced in half by a car on King St. These are urban, downtown, neighbourhood (supposedly, shopping) streets. And people are being sliced in half????
Sounds like an autobahn.

[crhayes]

very true, but when do you recall the police using such strong language to depict a worse-than-usual scene? They don't throw around words like that everyday.
IMO that SHOULD NOT be able to happen downtown because nobody should be going fast enough to cause such horrific damage.
You'll recall over in your neighbourhood someone was sliced in half by a car on King St. These are urban, downtown, neighbourhood (supposedly, shopping) streets. And people are being sliced in half????
Sounds like an autobahn.

Well I have to agree that people shouldn't be driving that fast (and how it's caused by 5 lanes one-way and synchronized lights). Driving through downtown Toronto is not like here - it's at a snails pace.

[adam]

There's kind of a bump at James that needs to be smoothed out. The synchronized lights do promote racing to the next light also.

So what is the course of action here? Desync all the lights, driver education, higher enforcement, more "LED eyes" like SW King & Dundurn?

1. definite demarcations coming off the highway onto King, Main, Aberdeen
2. no more than 3 lanes on a 1 way street
3. narrower lanes while maintaining minimum allowable width
4. police pulling cars over that speed through the downtown (I don't think i've EVER seen a car pulled over for speeding in the downtown)
5. encourage carpooling
6. Light Rail

[raisethehammer]

Haha! Fat chance of seeing #4 happen. Cops are the worst. They just blow down Main St like they own the place.
No chance that #5 will happen either. Why would people carpool when they are currently encouraged by city hall to put the pedal to the metal in their single occupancy vehicle?

[adam]

I see you're playing the devil's advocate...

They probably won't allow a cycling lane but what about lobbying for a carpool/cycling lane? it would be just as good as a private cycling lane given the majority of single-occupancy vehicles.

[BCTed]

Sad to see. The accident looks to have occurred on James Street just north of Main, so I don't think the freeway extrapolation is really fair in this case.

I don't think so either. Your post seems to have been largely ignored.

Sad news about the accident. Immediately exploiting it (very likely incorrectly) as a trigger for airing "expressway" views is wrong.

[raisethehammer]

I was at the scene today.
The body was lying in the 2nd lane on Main. The truck was on the sidewalk on the north curb of Main halfway between James and Hughson.
This info has been stated on here several times already. It wasn't on James between Main and King. It was ON Main.

[BCTed]

I was at the scene today.
The body was lying in the 2nd lane on Main. The truck was on the sidewalk on the north curb of Main halfway between James and Hughson.
This info has been stated on here several times already. It wasn't on James between Main and King. It was ON Main.

I sit corrected, although I do not see where the info has been stated multiple times. My sentiment remains the same.

[FairHamilton]

To be fair information from local media reported it was on James Street, not Main. From the 11pm news (3rd or 4th story) it appears to be on Main Street and the truck was a 24' Straight Truck.

My condolences to all those impacted by this tragic accident.

[Millstone]

no, I'm here to jump on the 'speeding cars aided by synchronized lights through the heart of downtown are bad' bandwagon.
Read the post before wasting our time.

You don't even know how things unfolded and you're using it as a vehicle to promote your "cars are bad" mantra. What post am I reading exactly? You seem to know the speed of the driver. I can't find that information as of 2:36am EDT 23/10/08, please cite your source.

[geoff's two cents]

Millstone, the precise speed of the driver is not as important as the fact that the five-lane/one-way street/synchronized lights system discourages drivers from taking the due care they would if they were in a city that did not build such costly and highly visible monuments to the private automobile. Main street at James does not feel like a major intersection in Ontario's 3rd largest independent city; it feels like a thoroughfare, and in many respects like a freeway.

Cars are not necessarily bad, but Hamilton (citizens as well as leadership)'s level of dependence on them is troubling. It's mind-boggling to think that these giant one-way streets that make the downtown a less desirable place to live, pollute the air, and that are extremely dangerous, are subsidized at the enormous expense of taxpayers.

This is not the time to be wholeheartedly defending the car-centred lifestyle and mode of city planning. Rather, the most humane thing to do when somebody is hit and killed by a car would be to at least question this way of life and subject it to rigorous debate. I don't think you necessarily need to be on some sort of "bandwagon" or promoting some sort of political agenda to adhere to that line of reasoning.

[raisethehammer]

everyone who disagrees with Millstone's unsustainable, inhumane preferences for urban design has a 'political agenda'
I don't know the speed of the truck, but I'd happily start the wagering at 25 bucks that it wasn't 25km an hour. When you see how far past the body the truck stopped it's quite clear that either he was not paying any attention at all, or was going so fast that he couldn't stop any sooner than where he did.
It's a tragic loss for the family and friends of this woman who did what so many of us do everyday - tried to cross a street downtown. Perhaps she was at fault. Even so, I've seen pedestrians hit 'at fault' in Kensington Market and in Hess Village. In both cases they bounced back up because the vehicles were driving at a humane speed suitable for urban environments.
The online Spec has no info today...did the print issue?

[Millstone]

everyone who disagrees with Millstone's unsustainable, inhumane preferences for urban design has a 'political agenda'
I don't know the speed of the truck, but I'd happily start the wagering at 25 bucks that it wasn't 25km an hour. When you see how far past the body the truck stopped it's quite clear that either he was not paying any attention at all, or was going so fast that he couldn't stop any sooner than where he did.
It's a tragic loss for the family and friends of this woman who did what so many of us do everyday - tried to cross a street downtown. Perhaps she was at fault. Even so, I've seen pedestrians hit 'at fault' in Kensington Market and in Hess Village. In both cases they bounced back up because the vehicles were driving at a humane speed suitable for urban environments.
The online Spec has no info today...did the print issue?

There isn't any vehicle travelling on Main St at 25 km/h. That's pretty unrealistic. Again: why was this person in the intersection?

[raisethehammer]

There isn't any vehicle travelling on Main St at 25 km/h.

exactly my point. They should be. No reason for cars to be doing 50-75km in the heart of a downtown core. It's inhumane, unsustainable, business-unfriendly, pedestrian-unfriendly, EcDev-unfriendly. It's pretty much bad on all counts unless you're a trucker looking to blaze through the city from Detroit to Buffalo. Yippee.

[SteelTown]

I'm pretty sure buses don't even go 25 km/h. LRT will probably go faster than 25 km/h as well.

[Millstone]

exactly my point. They should be. No reason for cars to be doing 50-75km in the heart of a downtown core. It's inhumane, unsustainable, business-unfriendly, pedestrian-unfriendly, EcDev-unfriendly. It's pretty much bad on all counts unless you're a trucker looking to blaze through the city from Detroit to Buffalo. Yippee.

Wow. That's terrible. Please stop flinging around shrapnel from Stephane Dion's lost campaign like "unsustainable" and "EcDev-unfriendly" and "inhumane" and explain how a 25 km/h limit on Main St would encourage businesses to relocate to that strip of Hamilton. Deliveries would take forever and traffic would suck, increasing pollution. People would be late to work all over the shop.

[raisethehammer]

Wow. That's terrible. Please stop flinging around shrapnel from Stephane Dion's lost campaign like "unsustainable" and "EcDev-unfriendly" and "inhumane" and explain how a 25 km/h limit on Main St would encourage businesses to relocate to that strip of Hamilton. Deliveries would take forever and traffic would suck, increasing pollution. People would be late to work all over the shop.


I never said anything about a speed limit. I'm talking about the realities of driving in other downtowns. Trying doing 55-60km on Yonge St in TO.
Any city I'm in, it seems like 35-40km is a normal downtown maximum speed. I'm often doing 25-35 in downtowns.
How would slower traffic help encourage new business??? Please. We've gone over this at length on this website. Human beings on the street spend money. Not speeding cars.

[Millstone]

I never said anything about a speed limit. I'm talking about the realities of driving in other downtowns. Trying doing 55-60km on Yonge St in TO.
Any city I'm in, it seems like 35-40km is a normal downtown maximum speed. I'm often doing 25-35 in downtowns.
How would slower traffic help encourage new business??? Please. We've gone over this at length on this website. Human beings on the street spend money. Not speeding cars.

Okay, you want people to drive 25 km/h on Main St as it is. Explain how you would accomplish that.

And I've done 55-60 km/h on Yonge St; what's your point?

I didn't say slower traffic, I said 25 km/h traffic. Please stop flinging around shrapnel from Stephane Dion's lost campaign like "unsustainable" and "EcDev-unfriendly" and "inhumane" and explain how a 25 km/h limit on Main St would encourage businesses to relocate to that strip of Hamilton. Deliveries would take forever and traffic would suck, increasing pollution. People would be late to work all over the shop.

[raisethehammer]

Human beings on the street spend money. Not speeding cars.
:dead:

[coalminecanary]

You don't even know how things unfolded and you're using it as a vehicle to promote your "cars are bad" mantra.

How insensitive can you be? We are not using someone's death to further some sort of underhanded agenda, unless you consider saving lives and making our streets livable for ALL CITIZENS EQUALLY (not just those who choose to blast through in vehicles) a political agenda.

We are talking about senseless loss of life, and no matter who the hell is "at fault" it doesn't change the fact that someone died. We need to design roads so that so that nobody's mistakes (drivers nor pedestrians) can cause this type of damage to a human body. We ned to fix the way cars and people interact in this city because the way it is set up now is not working. People are dying and there is absolutely no need!!!!!

We are crying out for sanity. Stop twisting our words to further YOUR agenda.

[ryan_mcgreal]

http://www.raisethehammer.org/blog/1130


Yet Another Pedestrian is Killed
By: Ryan McGreal
Published: 2008/10/23

Just after lunchtime yesterday, a pedestrian was struck and killed instantly at the corner of Main St and James St. The victim, a woman in her 30s, was crossing Main St. on James St. at 12:42 PM yesterday when a cube van hit her.

This was the 14th pedestrian fatality in Hamilton this year. The Ontario average is 1.0 fatalities per 100,000 people, which puts Hamilton's pedestrian fatality rate at around 2.5 times higher than the provincial average.

Against the predictable cries that the pedestrian should have looked where she was going, I humbly offer the following analysis:

* At a vehicle speed of 32 km/h, the fatality rate for pedestrians hit is five percent.
* At 48 km/h, the fatality rate is 50 percent.
* At 64 km/h, the speed of the so-called "green wave" of synchronized lights on Main St., the fatality rate is over 90 percent.

Even if it was entirely the pedestrian's fault - and in the absence of a police report on what happened, that seems plausible - the simple fact is that there is a very clear exponential ratio between vehicle speed and pedestrian mortality.

The kinetic energy of a moving vehicle is calculated by its mass multiplied by a square of its speed. That means a vehicle moving twice as fast has four times as much energy - with a commensurate increase in its destructive potential.

It also means a vehicle moving twice as fast takes four times the distance to stop, which reduces commensurately the driver's ability to avoid collisions.

The simple fact is that if cars are moving slowly enough, it doesn't matter how carelessly pedestrians step out into traffic: they're less likely to be hit, and they're far less likely to be killed.

Below around 30 km/h, the fatality rate effectively drops to zero.

I suppose there's a case to be made that pedestrians who step carelessly onto the street 'deserve' whatever they get, but it seems to me that any public safety policy worth its salt must concern itself not with righteous moralizing but rather with achieving positive results.

Will anyone in Hamilton's municipal government muster up the guts to say "no more" to our deadly urban expressways?

[the dude]

for proponents of the auto-centric lifestyle, fatalities are simply the price of doing business. blame the driver or more often than not, the pedestrian but leave the car out of it. no, we need to start blaming cars and getting them off our streets.

so, what's more harmful to the health of downtown hamilton: the 'sketchy' folk in gore park, or the cars and trucks that blast along main street?

[highwater]

Then nobody in their right mind should care about your opinion. To hell with the "facts", raisethehammer's here to jump on the cars-are-bad bandwagon! :sly:

Jaywalkers do not deserve to die gruesome deaths. Even if she was crossing against the light, it was the unacceptable level of speed that we tolerate (and sometimes celebrate) in our downtown that killed her.

[highwater]

Please stop flinging around shrapnel from Stephane Dion's lost campaign like "unsustainable" and "EcDev-unfriendly" and "inhumane"

Yeah. Dion is such a loser for promoting sustainable, humane policies. Get over it. Harper won. Start your engines!

[BrianE]

Here is a great report from Safe Kids Canada on Pedestrian Safety. They focus a bit on child safety, but there is still some great stuff for other age groups.

http://www.sickkids.ca/SKCForPartners/custom/PEDestrianGuide05.pdf

The report identifies a number of different factors in pedestrian deaths. I knew that Hamilton's roads were bad... but frankly I'm shocked by how many factors in pedestrian deaths apply to Hamilton Streets.

For Example:

There is no definitive research to indicate whether driver
behaviour or child behaviour is most often the cause of a
crash. In most cases, a combination of factors is involved.
Risk factors for pedestrian crashes include:
• high traffic volume
• road speed limit of greater than 40 km/h
• high average vehicle speed
• child located on the road
• darkness
• rainy weather


The report has a lot of great ideas for prevention as well.

[emge]

And I've done 55-60 km/h on Yonge St; what's your point?


Sure, 25 km/h as a posted limit is a stretch, and turning this thread immediately to the evils of one-way streets before there was substantive proof the accident actually occcured on King was premature.

However, I can say that living at Yonge/Steeles, Yonge/Sheppard, and Yonge/Eglinton and taking the subway downtown for work during my years in Toronto, I'm quite certain no one has done 55-60 km/h on Yonge Street during the work week in the daytime or early evening, or most Saturdays.

Coming back from downtown after 8.. maybe. Many deliveries, especially with large trucks, take place outside the normal business hours because of this.

With the subway, Yonge buses, and many other north-south routes in the city like Mt Pleasant that get you downtown far quicker there isn't any need for high-speed car traffic most of the day on Yonge

... and I would dare say not on Main or King Street in Hamilton either, especially with our other one-way routes. Going to 25 is silly as a posted limit.. being more around 35 even if 40 or 50 is posted because of other measures and possibly two-way.. I can see that, and now that we know where the accident occurred I think the discussion around it is appropriate.

[coalminecanary]

Even if the accident happened on James, this discussion would still apply. Main and Cannon (and to a SLIGHTLY lesser extent, King, Wilson, York, Queen, Wellington, Wentworth) are designed to reduce the necessity for vehicles to slow down thereby encouraging speeding - and by being one-way, they give the feeling of expressway driving, even though theoretically they are not expressways.

The problem is, it is easy as a driver to fall into the "highway mentality" - and even if you turn off of one of these streets on to a more sane street such as James, it takes time for people to adjust away from the highway mentality.

All of the streets downtown, including residential streets, suffer from drivers who race like they are merging onto a 400 series highway. Not all drivers are guilty of this, but the design of the major streets encourage this behaviour - and reward it with green lights - and that behaviour spills out to other streets.

I live on a street that intersects Main, but I am about 5 blocks away form main. Our block is very short - about 12 houses long - with a stop sign on each end. People race from one stop sign only to slam on their brakes at the other. I am convinced that this behaviour is partially due to the drivers using our street to get from one "highway mentality" street to another - and the mentality stays with them through the entire journey - i.e. if they do not race the entire way, they might get stuck at a light.

Millstone, what area of the city do you live in, just out of curiosity? I feel like much of the "one-ways are fine" supporter camp does not live near downtown. I battle with insane vehicular speeds every day, while on foot, while on a bike and while driving in my neighbourhood - and it's clear to me as a resident that it is simply a dangerous setup.

THe worst part is that even those drivers who are mindful of the problem can be lulled into this mentality. I have caught myself going too fast on main more than once, and I consciously try to avoid doing so. THe effect is even worse for those who don't give a second thought to it.

It needs to change.

[raisethehammer]

People race from one stop sign only to slam on their brakes at the other. I am convinced that this behaviour is partially due to the drivers using our street to get from one "highway mentality" street to another - and the mentality stays with them through the entire journey - i.e. if they do not race the entire way, they might get stuck at a light.

this is SO true....my wife and were talking about this the other day. These idiots at EVERY light and EVERY stopsign who gun it like the start of an Indy race, only to stop at the next stop-sign....many times, halfway out into the crosswalk.
It's almost humourous to watch people from the burbs do this downtown and get yelled at by parents and stares from people trying to cross the road as they speed like idiots down a 12-house block from one stop sign to the next.
I drive easy, steady and safely and always seem to catch up to them. Lol.
Funny, but it actually is quite dangerous. I like the fact when I go to Toronto that I exit the Gardiner and I KNOW that I'm not on the highway anymore. The driving pattern changes instantly. That's what we need here. I'm tired of the deadbeats and squelchers always having their way - no business investment, pedestrian deaths, unsafe streets, nervous parents etc.... just because they are addicted to their cars and don't give a rip about anyone else but themselves.

[ryan_mcgreal]

Here is a great report from Safe Kids Canada on Pedestrian Safety.

A 2000 study conducted on Hamilton streets (http://raisethehammer.org/blog/1082) and published in the Canadian Journal of Public Health concluded:


One-way streets have higher rates of child pedestrian injuries than two-way streets in this community.

[Jon Dalton]

This discussion reminds me of General Motors' PR campaigns in the 1950's. They argued against the need to build safer cars by stating the real problems were with the drivers as well as road design, bad signage, bicycles on roads, etc. It's the same principle. We cannot continue to blame the individual for an ongoing societal problem.

[Millstone]

How insensitive can you be? We are not using someone's death to further some sort of underhanded agenda, unless you consider saving lives and making our streets livable for ALL CITIZENS EQUALLY (not just those who choose to blast through in vehicles) a political agenda.

We are talking about senseless loss of life, and no matter who the hell is "at fault" it doesn't change the fact that someone died. We need to design roads so that so that nobody's mistakes (drivers nor pedestrians) can cause this type of damage to a human body. We ned to fix the way cars and people interact in this city because the way it is set up now is not working. People are dying and there is absolutely no need!!!!!

We are crying out for sanity. Stop twisting our words to further YOUR agenda.

This is no "we vs. you" debate. You used "we" three times and "our" but I've only been talking to like one person and it's not you. Someone died and that is tragic, but I'm apparently the only one who can think without emotion clouding my judgement and that's fine.

Now what do you mean design a road so that there are no mistakes? Those are called freeways and we all know how this forum in general feels about those. I think the way people drive in this city is a problem, just like how pedestrians ignoring signals is a problem. I'd like to solve all of it but there's no silver bullet. I'd really like to try ramped up enforcement, because the city could make a huge profit if they knew where to look.

Also, it does matter who is at fault and I've yet to see a piece of copy saying whose it was yet.

To answer your other question, Rebecca & James. I've crossed King and Main lots without issues; it works great if you cross when you're supposed to. What now? :)

[LikeHamilton]

Quote from CHML

The Hamilton Police Collision Reconstruction Unit is handling the investigation and still trying to determine the "traffic light situation" at the time of the tragedy.

Sergaent Mike Webber confirms that the woman was in the crosswalk at the time that she was hit. He adds that the driver of the commercial vehicle which struck her is assisting with the investigation.

Also police have said that alcohol and speed where not a factor.

[markbarbera]

Now that we have a bit more information to work with, let's pause a moment from the rhetoric and examine the facts as they are now available. The pedestrian was in the intersection when the accident occurred. Right of way has not yet been determined. The body came to rest within the intersection where the accident occurred.

While I am not a traffic reconstruction expert, the fact that the body did not travel far from the impact would indicate that speed was not a factor in the accident. Judging from the description of the body there was obvious head trauma in this accident. Head trauma in pedestrian accidents often results in a fatality regardless of the speed of impact, particularly if the automobile involved is a cube van. If memory serves, just this week in Toronto a 2-year-old was killed by head injurieds sustained when hit by an auto backing out of a residential driveway.

Can we please wait at least for the results of the accident reconstruction analysis before we lay blame for the cause of the accident?

[markbarbera]

I like the fact when I go to Toronto that I exit the Gardiner and I KNOW that I'm not on the highway anymore. The driving pattern changes instantly. That's what we need here. I'm tired of the deadbeats and squelchers always having their way - no business investment, pedestrian deaths, unsafe streets, nervous parents etc.... just because they are addicted to their cars and don't give a rip about anyone else but themselves.

From personal experience I can say that driving habits in Toronto are no more different than on Hamilton streets. Hamilton does not have a monopoly on poorly designed streets, and two way streets can be more poorly designed than one-way streets. If you don't beleive me try driving along Jarvis Street in Toronto sometime, or Kingston Road, for that matter.

No one is arguing that the 403 exit onto Main is poorly designed. Having said that, this is not because Main is a one-way street, rather it is because Main is a poorly designed one-way street.

[Millstone]

From personal experience I can say that driving habits in Toronto are no more different than on Hamilton streets. Hamilton does not have a monopoly on poorly designed streets, and two way streets can be more poorly designed than one-way streets. If you don't beleive me try driving along Jarvis Street in Toronto sometime, or Kingston Road, for that matter.

No one is arguing that the 403 exit onto Main is poorly designed. Having said that, this is not because Main is a one-way street, rather it is because Main is a poorly designed one-way street.

It's well-designed for maximum "go" power, but alas most people driving it seem to abuse that privilege.

[flar]

Hamilton's road system was probably considered a masterpiece when it was designed.

[FairHamilton]

While I am not a traffic reconstruction expert, the fact that the body did not travel far from the impact would indicate that speed was not a factor in the accident. Judging from the description of the body there was obvious head trauma in this accident. Head trauma in pedestrian accidents often results in a fatality regardless of the speed of impact, particularly if the automobile involved is a cube van. If memory serves, just this week in Toronto a 2-year-old was killed by head injurieds sustained when hit by an auto backing out of a residential driveway.

It wasn't a cube van, it was a 24' Straight Truck. Also sometimes incorrectly referred to as a 5 Ton Truck. Incorrectly, because they can be rated at a higher GVW than 5 tons.

For comparison;
24' Straight Truck: http://www.texastruckcenter.com/details3.php?stock_no=6159

Cube Van: http://www.hebdo.net/usedcarcanadasearch/details/31736707/heavytruckstrailer/surrey/britishcolumbia/2006_FORD_E-35014FTCUBEVAN_31736707.html

Sorry, but I think they type of truck is an important distinction.

[ryan_mcgreal]

police have said that speed [was] not a factor.

This is dangerous nonsense (http://www.raisethehammer.org/article/506/). The laws of motion are more binding than those of the Ministry of Transportation.

[go_leafs_go02]

This is dangerous nonsense (http://www.raisethehammer.org/article/506/). The laws of motion are more binding than those of the Ministry of Transportation.
let the police do the investigating.

They know what they're doing.

That's why we only post on a message board.

[coalminecanary]

This is no "we vs. you" debate. You used "we" three times and "our" but I've only been talking to like one person and it's not you.
Sorry - I didn't mean to get in the middle of a personal conversation, but it is a public discussion...;)

Now what do you mean design a road so that there are no mistakes? Those are called freeways and we all know how this forum in general feels about those. I think the way people drive in this city is a problem, just like how pedestrians ignoring signals is a problem. I'd like to solve all of it but there's no silver bullet. I'd really like to try ramped up enforcement, because the city could make a huge profit if they knew where to look.

I didn't say to design it so that there are no mistakes. I said to design it so that when mistakes are made, the chance of lives being lost is greatly reduced. Freeway design works fine for long distances but it does NOT work for cities. What would work to make the city streets safer would be to take measures to reduce the average speed which cars travel, as well as decreasing the likelihood of accidental interaction between automobiles and human beings. If the police don't know where to look, I don't know what's wrong with them. How about starting with, I don't know, any one-way stretch of main (and while we are at it, cannon)?

To answer your other question, Rebecca & James. I've crossed King and Main lots without issues; it works great if you cross when you're supposed to. What now? :)
I was just curious because I can't believe that someone who lives close to Main cannot see that it is a problem. But I must have mis-interpreted your earlier messages since you do see that the driving is a problem (As well as disobedient pedestrians).

Things work fine if you cross when you are supposed to, but things happen - bad judgement calls, or who knows, honest mistakes, laziness, etc. My main point is that we cannot eliminate these incidents but by calming the traffic through the core, we can minimize the injuries associated with them.

Everywhere else, we see a value in calming traffic where pedestrian activity is higher - school zones, residential streets, even parking lots. Why can't we extend this logic to the main through streets in our core?

[crhayes]

Sorry - I didn't mean to get in the middle of a personal conversation, but it is a public discussion...;)

I didn't say to design it so that there are no mistakes. I said to design it so that when mistakes are made, the chance of lives being lost is greatly reduced. Freeway design works fine for long distances but it does NOT work for cities. What would work to make the city streets safer would be to take measures to reduce the average speed which cars travel, as well as decreasing the likelihood of accidental interaction between automobiles and human beings. If the police don't know where to look, I don't know what's wrong with them. How about starting with, I don't know, any one-way stretch of main (and while we are at it, cannon)?

I was just curious because I can't believe that someone who lives close to Main cannot see that it is a problem. But I must have mis-interpreted your earlier messages since you do see that the driving is a problem (As well as disobedient pedestrians).

Things work fine if you cross when you are supposed to, but things happen - bad judgement calls, or who knows, honest mistakes, laziness, etc. My main point is that we cannot eliminate these incidents but by calming the traffic through the core, we can minimize the injuries associated with them.

Everywhere else, we see a value in calming traffic where pedestrian activity is higher - school zones, residential streets, even parking lots. Why can't we extend this logic to the main through streets in our core?

I know this is a little off topic, but depending on the answer it may have relevance: does anyone know if the train tracks just north of Barton st. are used heavily?

[go_leafs_go02]

I know this is a little off topic, but depending on the answer it may have relevance: does anyone know if the train tracks just north of Barton st. are used heavily?

yes, they are CN railway trackage.

VIA rail from Toronto to Niagara Falls runs through here, along with any Toronto to NYS bound freight train traffic.

[raisethehammer]

This is dangerous nonsense (http://www.raisethehammer.org/article/506/). The laws of motion are more binding than those of the Ministry of Transportation.

right on. Im sick and tired of the 'powers that be' in this city always looking to cover their backsides when someone is killed.
I've been calling on the cops and city hall to advocate for safer streets downtown for years. Nobody will do it. Perhaps the 'spirit' of Bernie Morelli has also crept into the police force - sit on your fat backside, pretend it's 1950 and do nothing.

[adam]

A few things deeply trouble me about how we live:

- pedestrians feel they have to run across the road even if a car yields to them - people should have a right to cross the road in a dignified manner.

- today's cars are designed to go much faster than the legal speed limit

- it's very difficult to go below 20km/h in a minivan - the gas pedal just isn't sensitive enough (I've driven a handful of makes/models)

- major arteries in Hamilton are wider than the 403

- any new development - including parkland - is built for every occupant to park a single-occupancy vehicle

- according to a friend in a car dealership, as soon as gas prices started to go down again, minivan and SUV sales skyrocketed

[BCTed]

From personal experience I can say that driving habits in Toronto are no more different than on Hamilton streets. Hamilton does not have a monopoly on poorly designed streets, and two way streets can be more poorly designed than one-way streets. If you don't beleive me try driving along Jarvis Street in Toronto sometime, or Kingston Road, for that matter.

No one is arguing that the 403 exit onto Main is poorly designed. Having said that, this is not because Main is a one-way street, rather it is because Main is a poorly designed one-way street.

I find this crazy to believe given some of our clashes over Harry Stinson, but I am finding more and more often that you are the voice of reason in many of these threads.

[ryan_mcgreal]

let the police do the investigating. They know what they're doing.

The police are not going to come back from an investigation and say, "the street is at fault." They're absolutely not trained to be urban planners or traffic engineers; only to establish who hit whom, what speed they were going, whether alcohol was involved, and whether either or both parties were violating traffic rules.

My point is that it's actually a distraction, from a policy perspective, to focus exclusively on who is nominally "at fault" in a given collision. The road system itself is a major contributing factor to pedestrian fatalities when it encourages vehicles to travel at a speed that has a 95 percent fatality rate for vehicle/pedestrian collisions.

However, it is not in the jurisdiction of the investigating officer to consider the problem at this level. As I said, they're not urban planners or traffic engineers.

To wait for the police report and then assume that it somehow settles the matter is dangerous, since the report doesn't even consider larger questions about the role of the traffic system.

[SteelTown]

Charges forthcoming in downtown fatal

Jay McQueen
10/24/2008

Police now say they expect to lay charges in connection with the city's most recent traffic fatality.

A 50-year-old woman was killed on Wednesday afternoon after being struck while crossing Main at James Street downtown.

Police say the driver was heading south and making a turn from James onto Main at the time.

No word yet on the nature of charges but speed and alcohol were not factors.

[SteelTown]

^ It’s unlikely speed was a factor if the driver was turning from James to Main.

[markbarbera]

The road system itself is a major contributing factor to pedestrian fatalities when it encourages vehicles to travel at a speed that has a 95 percent fatality rate for vehicle/pedestrian collisions.


I don't think this is factually accurate for the intersection in question. The speed limit on Main Street is 50 km/h, and the lights along Main West are synchronized to maintain this speed. According to the statistics you quoted earlier, the fatality rate at this speed is more like 50%.

The fatality in this case has more to do with the type of vehicle involved and the driver's operation of the vehicle rather than the speed at which it was travelling. Most recent accounts indicate the truck was making a right turn from the northbound lane of James onto Main Street when it struck the pedestrian. So this definitely was not a case of a runaway truck speeding along Main at breakneck speeds. It does look like a possible illegal right hand turn may have been a contributing factor.

I find it disturbing how quickly some participants rushed to use this poor woman's tragic death (who has now been identified as 50-year-old Debbie Devins) as some sort of morbid example promoting the cause to convert Main to two-way traffic. Perhaps we can give pause and show some respect for the deceased before jumping to incorrect conclusions. That would also allow for all the facts in the case to be established before determining a proper conclusion.

[ryan_mcgreal]

I don't think this is factually accurate for the intersection in question.

As more information about the incident comes out, I'm inclined to agree with you. It now looks as though the driver was turning right from James (northbound) onto Main (eastbound).

The speed limit on Main Street is 50 km/h, and the lights along Main West are synchronized to maintain this speed.

If you go through an intersection before it turns red, you can easily drive at 65 or 70 km/h for several blocks right through the downtown core before you start to approach the front of the "green wave".

[FairHamilton]

If you go through an intersection before it turns red, you can easily drive at 65 or 70 km/h for several blocks right through the downtown core before you start to approach the front of the "green wave".

And if you start on a green at Dundurn you can make it pretty much all the way through downtown at 47 - 52 km/h. Interesting difference isn't it.

[Millstone]

Charges forthcoming in downtown fatal

Jay McQueen
10/24/2008

Police now say they expect to lay charges in connection with the city's most recent traffic fatality.

A 50-year-old woman was killed on Wednesday afternoon after being struck while crossing Main at James Street downtown.

Police say the driver was heading south and making a turn from James onto Main at the time.

No word yet on the nature of charges but speed and alcohol were not factors.

Probably means the pedestrian was facing a 'walk' signal and the guy didn't check his right side. That's absolutely vital in urban centres, there are people walking everywhere.

edit: or check his left side, whatever the case is

[raisethehammer]

if the Spec is right, the driver was turning left, not right.
But as usual, I don't think the spec is right. I saw the scene and it seems an odd place for the truck to end up if it was heading south. Seems more likely that it was heading north and tried to turn right.

[adam]

I was cut off by a minivan on my bike today going down Queen St. His van door almost shaved my handlebar as he raced towards the red light.
He had to stop at the stop light ahead, and I caught up to his idling vehicle a few seconds later. We both waited at the light for 30 seconds..

Mr. Minivan, if you are out there, I'd like to know what your blatant rage accomplished except endangering my life. You didn't get to your destination any faster. The only thing I can think of is you believe that bikes should not be on the road. Why is that?

[BCTed]

if the Spec is right, the driver was turning left, not right.
But as usual, I don't think the spec is right. I saw the scene and it seems an odd place for the truck to end up if it was heading south. Seems more likely that it was heading north and tried to turn right.

Either case blows a hole in your exploitative suggestion that the "highway" was at fault in this instance.

[BCTed]

I was cut off by a minivan on my bike today going down Queen St. His van door almost shaved my handlebar as he raced towards the red light.
He had to stop at the stop light ahead, and I caught up to his idling vehicle a few seconds later. We both waited at the light for 30 seconds..

Mr. Minivan, if you are out there, I'd like to know what your blatant rage accomplished except endangering my life. You didn't get to your destination any faster. The only thing I can think of is you believe that bikes should not be on the road. Why is that?

This thread's topic deals with a woman who lost her life in accident. Why are you using it to air your petty rant about some random person's driving habits?

[BCTed]

I find it disturbing how quickly some participants rushed to use this poor woman's tragic death (who has now been identified as 50-year-old Debbie Devins) as some sort of morbid example promoting the cause to convert Main to two-way traffic. Perhaps we can give pause and show some respect for the deceased before jumping to incorrect conclusions. That would also allow for all the facts in the case to be established before determining a proper conclusion.


I agree. Even if the accident had been caused by someone barrelling down Main Street at 150 km/hr, this type of opportunitistic agenda promotion would still have been extremely misplaced and inappropriate.

[highwater]

This thread's topic deals with a woman who lost her life in accident. Why are you using it to air your petty rant about some random person's driving habits?

Why are you using it to defend the status quo?

[adam]

This thread's topic deals with a woman who lost her life in accident. Why are you using it to air your petty rant about some random person's driving habits?

"Some random person's driving habits" is the underlying issue. As the minivan was cutting me off, this fatality was all I could think about.

The reason why I ride a bike (while my brand new car is parked) and try to walk places is to help encourage a shift from driving cars that cause many fatalities every year, belch toxic fumes into our air, and have a monopoly on our public space (think about that one carefully) to walking, cycling and taking public transportation.

You contradict yourself in your response when you call a person's driving habits a petty rant. This is cold and callous given the recent fatality.

[coalminecanary]

I find it disturbing how quickly some participants rushed to use this poor woman's tragic death (who has now been identified as 50-year-old Debbie Devins) as some sort of morbid example promoting the cause to convert Main to two-way traffic. Perhaps we can give pause and show some respect for the deceased before jumping to incorrect conclusions. That would also allow for all the facts in the case to be established before determining a proper conclusion.

I agree. Even if the accident had been caused by someone barrelling down Main Street at 150 km/hr, this type of opportunitistic agenda promotion would still have been extremely misplaced and inappropriate.

Are you guys joking? What "agenda"? Safer streets? You consider safety for all road users some sort of underhanded agenda? To further our own gain? The only personal gain I'll get from fighting for speed reduction will be not dying when I try to use the road. And not having to suffer the loss of a loved one on our streets. And not having to read about a stranger dying every 6 weeks or so. This isn't some dark ploy. Man, I can't believe posts like this. This is exactly the time to be discussing how we can reduce fatalities on our streets. Actually, the time was years ago. So when would you like to address the issue? Shall we wait another week? A month? A year? How many more pedestrians need to die before it's "safe" to talk about reducing deaths? Or is it that you think that the current level of safety is statistically acceptable?

Also, I'd like to point out that I, personally, am not talking about two-ways alone - this isn't tunnel vision. I'd like to see de-timed lights as a first step, and exploration of other measures - street parking, wider sidewalks, better enforecment (even photo radar), and yes, two way conversions.

This isn't about two way conversions - it's about questioning the safety of the major through streets of our core - wondering if they are needlessly dangerous - and exploring possible solutions if so. It's about making our downtown a comfortable and safe place for everyone, not just through traffic.

[Millstone]

"Some random person's driving habits" is the underlying issue. As the minivan was cutting me off, this fatality was all I could think about.

The reason why I ride a bike (while my brand new car is parked) and try to walk places is to help encourage a shift from driving cars that cause many fatalities every year, belch toxic fumes into our air, and have a monopoly on our public space (think about that one carefully) to walking, cycling and taking public transportation.

You contradict yourself in your response when you call a person's driving habits a petty rant. This is cold and callous given the recent fatality.

Besides the fact that buying a depreciating asset that you're not even going to use is a bad idea, new vehicles do not release as much badness into the air as in years past. You rarely see a smoking vehicle on the road anymore. Cars don't have a monopoly on public space, as evidenced by our ability to walk, cycle and take public transportation.

[rousseau]

I agree, coalminecanary. There is a fundamental mindset about the perceived superiority and preeminence of motorized vehicular traffic that predominates here (and, let's face it, everywhere in the world outside of Amsterdam) that really needs to change. Grassroots activists are working to raise awareness towards making streets more pedestrian and bicycle friendly, but ultimately what needs to happen is a combination of legislation and public education, similary to what has happened with smoking over the past twenty or so years.

Problem is, not everyone was hooked on tobacco back in the day, and the analogy grinds to a halt when you consider the utilitarian nature of motorized traffic. It's one thing to make smoking as prohibitive as possible, as even the die-hard smokers in their 60s and 70s will admit that it's a filthy, disgusting and unhealthy habit, but it's quite another to convince the "soccer mom" that she doesn't need a Ford Explorer.

Further to that are the obvious infrastructure issues. Ms. Soccer Mom probably does indeed need to drive her mammoth gas-guzzler everywhere because the closest grocery store is 10 kms away in the Meadowlands.

Still, we need to start with the obvious, like making streets and roads more pedestrian friendly, and slowing traffic down. Main Street in Hamilton is ridiculous. Synchronized lights affording you a 10-minute trip from the 403 to Gage Park are a travesty (hell, I'd sooner have seen James South and John South stay one way and have streetside parking on the length of both sides of both streets, but that's another issue).

I don't think it is disrespectful in the slightest to hold up this terrible accident as yet another example of how wrong-headed we are when it comes to traffic safety. If real legislation and changes to infrastructure resulted from this, or were inspired by or gained momentum due to what happened, then I would think it would result in a very small sense of consolation for those who are grieving.

Granted, obviously many traffic accidents are purely the fault of the drivers or are simply accidents, but it seems to me that in this case there is cause to point the finger partly at our general mindset, in that we indulge motor vehicles at the expense of flesh-and-blood pedestrians and cyclists far too much.


Further to biking: I'm in Stratford, so 5 minutes in any direction gets me to quiet country roads for my rides. Still, those 5 minutes are as urban as can be. The other evening I was actually hit by a minivan. I was right on the broken line separating the vehicular lane from the parking lane (where I'm supposed to be, though some people argue for "taking the lane"), and while going along a stretch where there were about four spaces with no vehicles parked in them I got a jolt on my elbow and felt a solid object moving along my leg and shoulder. A minivan buzzed me! It wasn't going much faster than me, and didn't knock me over or injure me at all. Still, I was furious. I caught up to the van, knocked on the window, and berated this middle-aged couple for hitting me. You know what they said? They said that I had so much room, so what was I doing in their lane?! I swore at them liberally and told them they had to give me room when passing. They shook they heads and took off, so I scampered over to the cop shop and reported them. The cops were sympathetic, and actually filed an accident report. They later called me and said they would have the driver call me to apologize. I was still angry when they called, so I let my answering machine take it. The driver said that they were motorcyclists (!), so were aware of the dangers of traffic, but they weren't sure of what had actually happened back there, and since I was still on my bike when she checked the mirror she figured that nothing had actually happened. Then, when I caught up to them, she said they would have been willing to talk about it, but my attitude was so aggressive that no further discussion was possible. Yeah, I tend to think people can get a little aggressive when they get hit by complacent people in cars! I like to think that my reaction and the fact that the police contacted them gave them pause for thought, and perhaps next time they won't be so quick to buzz by a cyclist in his or her rightful place in the lane. I hope so, anyway.

[raisethehammer]

I agree, coalminecanary. There is a fundamental mindset about the perceived superiority and preeminence of motorized vehicular traffic that predominates here (and, let's face it, everywhere in the world outside of Amsterdam) that really needs to change. Grassroots activists are working to raise awareness towards making streets more pedestrian and bicycle friendly, but ultimately what needs to happen is a combination of legislation and public education, similary to what has happened with smoking over the past twenty or so years.

Problem is, not everyone was hooked on tobacco back in the day, and the analogy grinds to a halt when you consider the utilitarian nature of motorized traffic. It's one thing to make smoking as prohibitive as possible, as even the die-hard smokers in their 60s and 70s will admit that it's a filthy, disgusting and unhealthy habit, but it's quite another to convince the "soccer mom" that she doesn't need a Ford Explorer.

Further to that are the obvious infrastructure issues. Ms. Soccer Mom probably does indeed need to drive her mammoth gas-guzzler everywhere because the closest grocery store is 10 kms away in the Meadowlands.

Still, we need to start with the obvious, like making streets and roads more pedestrian friendly, and slowing traffic down. Main Street in Hamilton is ridiculous. Synchronized lights affording you a 10-minute trip from the 403 to Gage Park are a travesty (hell, I'd sooner have seen James South and John South stay one way and have streetside parking on the length of both sides of both streets, but that's another issue).

I don't think it is disrespectful in the slightest to hold up this terrible accident as yet another example of how wrong-headed we are when it comes to traffic safety. If real legislation and changes to infrastructure resulted from this, or were inspired by or gained momentum due to what happened, then I would think it would result in a very small sense of consolation for those who are grieving.

Granted, obviously many traffic accidents are purely the fault of the drivers or are simply accidents, but it seems to me that in this case there is cause to point the finger partly at our general mindset, in that we indulge motor vehicles at the expense of flesh-and-blood pedestrians and cyclists far too much.


Further to biking: I'm in Stratford, so 5 minutes in any direction gets me to quiet country roads for my rides. Still, those 5 minutes are as urban as can be. The other evening I was actually hit by a minivan. I was right on the broken line separating the vehicular lane from the parking lane (where I'm supposed to be, though some people argue for "taking the lane"), and while going along a stretch where there were about four spaces with no vehicles parked in them I got a jolt on my elbow and felt a solid object moving along my leg and shoulder. A minivan buzzed me! It wasn't going much faster than me, and didn't knock me over or injure me at all. Still, I was furious. I caught up to the van, knocked on the window, and berated this middle-aged couple for hitting me. You know what they said? They said that I had so much room, so what was I doing in their lane?! I swore at them liberally and told them they had to give me room when passing. They shook they heads and took off, so I scampered over to the cop shop and reported them. The cops were sympathetic, and actually filed an accident report. They later called me and said they would have the driver call me to apologize. I was still angry when they called, so I let my answering machine take it. The driver said that they were motorcyclists (!), so were aware of the dangers of traffic, but they weren't sure of what had actually happened back there, and since I was still on my bike when she checked the mirror she figured that nothing had actually happened. Then, when I caught up to them, she said they would have been willing to talk about it, but my attitude was so aggressive that no further discussion was possible. Yeah, I tend to think people can get a little aggressive when they get hit by complacent people in cars! I like to think that my reaction and the fact that the police contacted them gave them pause for thought, and perhaps next time they won't be so quick to buzz by a cyclist in his or her rightful place in the lane. I hope so, anyway.




man, I hope you're ok. Good for you in filing a report and having the cops contact them. Hopefully you right, and this will get them to slow down and think next time.

[rousseau]

man, I hope you're ok. Good for you in filing a report and having the cops contact them. Hopefully you right, and this will get them to slow down and think next time.
I'm fine. Even my elbow. They were going barely faster than me, so it was as if they were trying to "nudge" me over. Teach me a lesson, like.

Hopefully the lesson went the other way.

[FairHamilton]

To all,

We are getting further and further from the thread's purpose. There is a bike thread, http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=151584&page=4

[BCTed]

Are you guys joking? What "agenda"? Safer streets? You consider safety for all road users some sort of underhanded agenda? To further our own gain? The only personal gain I'll get from fighting for speed reduction will be not dying when I try to use the road. And not having to suffer the loss of a loved one on our streets. And not having to read about a stranger dying every 6 weeks or so. This isn't some dark ploy. Man, I can't believe posts like this. This is exactly the time to be discussing how we can reduce fatalities on our streets. Actually, the time was years ago. So when would you like to address the issue? Shall we wait another week? A month? A year? How many more pedestrians need to die before it's "safe" to talk about reducing deaths? Or is it that you think that the current level of safety is statistically acceptable?

Also, I'd like to point out that I, personally, am not talking about two-ways alone - this isn't tunnel vision. I'd like to see de-timed lights as a first step, and exploration of other measures - street parking, wider sidewalks, better enforecment (even photo radar), and yes, two way conversions.

This isn't about two way conversions - it's about questioning the safety of the major through streets of our core - wondering if they are needlessly dangerous - and exploring possible solutions if so. It's about making our downtown a comfortable and safe place for everyone, not just through traffic.

I am all for safe roads. If we could cut the accident rate down to zero, I would be fine with that.

The typical response on here has been to bring up the Main Street "highway" and talk about how especially dangerous Hamilton's roads are. Main Street was not at fault in this instance and I do not believe that Hamilton's roads are any more dangerous than those you would find in any other city. I can't imagine that the speeding was involved here either, given that the accident happened while the driver was turning.

What exactly is the issue that you would like to address here? Traffic fatalities on Main Street? Traffic fatalities in Hamilton? In Canada? In the world? An ideal fatality rate would be zero, but that will never happen. What would be acceptable? Where is the system failing us?

[BCTed]

"Some random person's driving habits" is the underlying issue. As the minivan was cutting me off, this fatality was all I could think about.

The reason why I ride a bike (while my brand new car is parked) and try to walk places is to help encourage a shift from driving cars that cause many fatalities every year, belch toxic fumes into our air, and have a monopoly on our public space (think about that one carefully) to walking, cycling and taking public transportation.

You contradict yourself in your response when you call a person's driving habits a petty rant. This is cold and callous given the recent fatality.

It is so difficult for me to follow what you are trying to say (linking this accident to some guy's driving habits to toxic fumes??) that I almost think you are Sarah Palin.

[rousseau]

To all,

We are getting further and further from the thread's purpose. There is a bike thread, http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=151584&page=4
Mods, best move my "rant" to that thread, then.

[Millstone]

The repaved section of Main is a bit easier on the nerves to drive on.

[adam]

Lets remember this fatality next time we get behind the wheel. Drive the speed limit (or lower - look up the definition of limit if you have to!), look out for pedestrians and cyclists, and leave your attitude at home.

[FairHamilton]

The repaved section of Main is a bit easier on the nerves to drive on.

I haven't drove it yet (possibly later this morning). Does smoother = faster?

[raisethehammer]

I haven't drove it yet (possibly later this morning). Does smoother = faster?

sadly, yes. It's been insane to stand at Main/Locke now...people are just screaming by.
I'm embarassed to be a Hamiltonian when I look all the way down that street and see virtually no sidewalks, not a soul on them and 5 freshly paved/painted lanes roaring through the neighbourhood.
We really suck in this city sometimes.

[coalminecanary]

What exactly is the issue that you would like to address here?

The fact that our downtown streets are designed to prioritize automotive through traffic to the point that we just shrug our shoulders at the pedestrian death rate and consider it an acceptable cost. You consider the number of pedestrian deaths this year to be statistically normal. I consider 8 (or is it 9) to be abnormally high. I'd be interested in the stats from other cities near us, both larger and smaller (maybe st. catharines, london, toronto).

But statistics in my mind are an aside - the speed and width of roads in our city have no place in the core. The downtown is for everybody, not just through traffic.

[adam]

Trolling in a thread about a lady's death is beyond reproach.

[MsMe]

Trolling in a thread about a lady's death is beyond reproach.

Well we do need to try and open people's eyes about making the streets more safe for pedestrians and vehicles.

[Millstone]

I haven't drove it yet (possibly later this morning). Does smoother = faster?

No.

[FairHamilton]

I haven't drove it yet (possibly later this morning). Does smoother = faster?

Didn't drive it today. Many would be please that at Hwy 6 and 403 we took 403 & QEW to Centennial parkway vs. city streets.

So 1 vote for faster, and 1 for not faster. I guess they cancel each other out and there has been no change in speed :haha:

If I had to guess I would say faster.

[Millstone]

I drive about 50-60 along that stretch, regardless of the riceburners zipping around me. It's just smoother.

[Jon Dalton]

Either case blows a hole in your exploitative suggestion that the "highway" was at fault in this instance.

Not necessarily. There is another danger inherent in one way streets: Since traffic only comes from one direction, we tend to look one direction as drivers before making a turn. To check the other direction for pedestrians does not come as naturally.

Even if none of these issues are directly related to the recent accident, Hamilton's road configuration for 50 years has made us accustomed to travelling quickly and easily through dense areas with alot of pedestrian activity. Where we have less space on the road, traffic moves slower and pedestrian crossings are more frequent, we are more aware of the activity around our cars and the possibility of hitting something or someone. Hamilton's road configuration produces the opposite effect.

[raisethehammer]

I drive about 50-60 along that stretch, regardless of the riceburners zipping around me. It's just smoother.

exactly right....50-60km you can be guaranteed that there are people zipping around you. 60-80 is COMMON in that stretch.

[adam]

Did bike lanes go in as promised by the mayor? He made a promise to put in bike lanes to every resurfaced road.

[Millstone]

none there, none on wilson, none on cannon/york in front of tim horton's.

[raisethehammer]

there has been a TON of road resurfacing since he won the mayoral election.
By my calculations, exactly zero of those streets have had bike lanes added.

[highwater]

Just received from McHattie's office:


Thursday, November 13, 2008
2:00 pm to 4:30 pm
DALEWOOD RECREATION CENTRE
1150 Main Street West

OR

6:30 pm to 9:00 pm
DUNDAS TOWN HALL
60 Main Street

There are over 3,300 traffic collisions reported to the police in Hamilton annually. That number has been on the rise since 2004. Traffic collisions cost Hamilton road users and taxpayers more than $450 million every year.
The City of Hamilton and the Hamilton Police Service, along with our partner agencies, are undertaking a focused program to reduce the deaths, injuries, trauma and property damage caused by traffic crashes. This new Strategic Road Safety Program will use traffic engineering, police enforcement, public health services, public education, and enhanced legislation to reduce the number of collisions.

The City of Hamilton’s Public Works Department and the Hamilton Police Service encourage you to come to either of the Public Information Sessions on November 13 to share your traffic safety concerns and expectations and to learn more about traffic safety trends in Hamilton.

With your input and support we can build a program that will successfully reduce traffic fatalities and injuries in Hamilton.

For more information:

Hart Solomon Manager,
Traffic Engineering and Operations
Public Works Department, City of Hamilton
Phone: 905 546-2424, ext. 4584
Fax: 905-540-5926
E-mail: hart.solomon@hamilton.ca

Michael E. Trickey,
P.Eng., P.E.
Vice President, TRANS Consulting Inc.
Phone: 905-882-4100, ext. 5313
Fax: 905-882-1557
E-mail: mtrickey@itransconsulting.com

[adam]

I can just imagine Lloyd Ferguson's response to this one "We can't afford to reduce the # of traffic related deaths because we are not a wealthy city"