General Updates and News

[counterfactual]

Yes, of lesser means.

Most of the overhauls are being done by people with money, many of them not from NS originally, but from Ontario. You have to have money to act like you don't have money.

It makes it harder for normal folks from here to purchase on the peninsula. This can have an effect to improve areas like Fairview, but it also pushes workers off the peninsula.

I'm not against gentrification per se, but they people screaming about it are largely in the demographic causing it. Real poor people have little to no voice.

I'm not sure about the Ontario thing. Certainly, Halifax is a national city, with its share of people from the across the country. But I would wager the vast majority of people living downtown, including the northend, are Nova Scotians. Sure there are some hipsters from Toronto, but they're not going to single handedly transform the housing market.

What will transform it is urban renewal. Gentrification is real and unfortunate but it's an inevitable part of downtown renewal. If downtown is made nicer, more livable, if neighborhoods are more walkable, and safe, then naturally, downtown housing is going to be more desirable. Greater demand means higher prices, higher property values. Not everyone will be able to afford it.

We should certainly take steps to mitigate the impact of gentrification through affordable housing and other means; but to stop it, means to neglect the downtown core for another generation.

Let the hipsters cry.

[Drybrain]

I'm not sure about the Ontario thing. Certainly, Halifax is a national city, with its share of people from the across the country. But I would wager the vast majority of people living downtown, including the northend, are Nova Scotians. Sure there are some hipsters from Toronto, but they're not going to single handedly transform the housing market.




Indeed. And I mean, so what if it IS a bunch of people from elsewhere? Aren't we having a big crisis with persistently negative interprovincial migration numbers? Fixing that isn't just about keeping people here, but encouraging others to come. If some people from Ontario or BC or wherever are buying houses in Halifax, well, so? I've literally never heard anyone in any other city complaining that out-of-provincers are pushing the locals out.*

*Caveat: I am a dirty Ontario hipster now residing in the North End, so may have felt slightly wounded by Worldly's post.

[Ziobrop]

I too am an ex-ontarian, and despite the general unshavenness, I lack the wardrobe and irony to be considered a hipster.

Halifax is probably one of the best cities in canada, and just small enough to be cozy.

[someone123]

I would guess that a very significant percentage of people living in the central parts of Halifax were not born in NS. I'm not sure what the numbers are like today, but Dalhousie was mostly out of province students at one point.

In my experience, the most "local" parts of town are working class suburban areas like Spryfield or Sackville. Incidentally, sometimes visitors who spend a couple of days in downtown Halifax come away thinking NS is a lot more similar to Ontario than it really is; I think this is because they spent 90% of their time literally surrounded by Ontarian "expats" and tourists.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Indeed. And I mean, so what if it IS a bunch of people from elsewhere? Aren't we having a big crisis with persistently negative interprovincial migration numbers? Fixing that isn't just about keeping people here, but encouraging others to come. If some people from Ontario or BC or wherever are buying houses in Halifax, well, so? I've literally never heard anyone in any other city complaining that out-of-provincers are pushing the locals out.*

*Caveat: I am a dirty Ontario hipster now residing in the North End, so may have felt slightly wounded by Worldly's post.


I'm not against it! I'm just saying, its completely different than it was... for the good, except property values have been pushed up.

Its not bad per se, its just most people don't have much to little of money who are displaced and there hasn't been development to catch up.

[worldlyhaligonian]

For example, there is so much money in Ontario by comparison that people just buy houses for their kids out here!

[worldlyhaligonian]

I would guess that a very significant percentage of people living in the central parts of Halifax were not born in NS. I'm not sure what the numbers are like today, but Dalhousie was mostly out of province students at one point.

In my experience, the most "local" parts of town are working class suburban areas like Spryfield or Sackville. Incidentally, sometimes visitors who spend a couple of days in downtown Halifax come away thinking NS is a lot more similar to Ontario than it really is; I think this is because they spent 90% of their time literally surrounded by Ontarian "expats" and tourists.

Yes, local in the sense these people have been there for awhile and are blue collar, although a large percentage of people who moved from other areas in NS and the maritimes are in places like Sackville.

I would say the north end used to be quite "local" and now is the place for people to buy that come to Halifax with the financial capacity or means to do so.

[coolmillion]

Does anyone remember the discussion a few years ago about implementing pay parking along Ahern (and maybe other streets around there)? I thought it was approved by Council but still no action. It's pretty crazy that it has taken this long. I calculated the potential revenue (based on 7.50 a day) and it amounts to hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Instead it is basically a free parking lot for hospital workers who start early in the morning. If you walk along Ahern around 6:30 you will see people sitting in their cars. They arrive early to secure a spot and then hang out until they have to go into work. Considering how central this location is it is inexcusable to not have pay parking there. Without it it's basically for commuters lucky enough/clever enough to secure space and there is very little turnover for the Oval or Commons user who would pay for one or two hours. Even free parking with a one or two hour limit would be better.

[counterfactual]

Indeed. And I mean, so what if it IS a bunch of people from elsewhere? Aren't we having a big crisis with persistently negative interprovincial migration numbers? Fixing that isn't just about keeping people here, but encouraging others to come. If some people from Ontario or BC or wherever are buying houses in Halifax, well, so? I've literally never heard anyone in any other city complaining that out-of-provincers are pushing the locals out.*

*Caveat: I am a dirty Ontario hipster now residing in the North End, so may have felt slightly wounded by Worldly's post.


I hate with a passion the "come from away" line. Not sure why Nova Scotians seem to like throwing that one around. It's stupid, ignorant, and not consistent with the openness that Nova Scotians always love patting ourselves on the backs for being known for.

[Drybrain]

I hate with a passion the "come from away" line. Not sure why Nova Scotians seem to like throwing that one around. It's stupid, ignorant, and not consistent with the openness that Nova Scotians always love patting ourselves on the backs for being known for.

Yeah. To be fair, I haven't encountered any of that--lots of openness instead. But I imagine the CFA suspiciousness might be more pronounced in small towns, etc.

[JET]

This is the area I believe the new building will take up. If so, and based on Wilkins likely planning on something 5+ stories, this could be significant for the area.

Maybe one day the Irishtown development will come to fruitition too.

http://i.imgur.com/D3ibMws.png

I walked by yesterday at 5 pm, the building on the corner of Queen and Victoria is gone, and the brick apartment building on Queen was half gone, I think one of Keith's CATs was at work but I could not tell if it was a D6, 7, or 8. :cheers:

[ns_kid]

I hate with a passion the "come from away" line. Not sure why Nova Scotians seem to like throwing that one around. It's stupid, ignorant, and not consistent with the openness that Nova Scotians always love patting ourselves on the backs for being known for.

"Come from away" is more myth than fact, in my view. I grew up in Nova Scotia, returning after several years "away". I've lived and worked in small towns in the Valley, South Shore and northern NS, as well as in Halifax. I can say in honesty that I have never heard anyone use the term "come from away", except perhaps in irony.

That's not to say there's not parochialism: there's plenty of that and it's certainly not confined to this province. But as for Nova Scotians who like "throwing around" the CFA term, I've yet to meet any of them.

[OldDartmouthMark]

"Come from away" is more myth than fact, in my view. I grew up in Nova Scotia, returning after several years "away". I've lived and worked in small towns in the Valley, South Shore and northern NS, as well as in Halifax. I can say in honesty that I have never heard anyone use the term "come from away", except perhaps in irony.

That's not to say there's not parochialism: there's plenty of that and it's certainly not confined to this province. But as for Nova Scotians who like "throwing around" the CFA term, I've yet to meet any of them.

I agree with this. Have yet to witness the use of this term, and I've lived in NS all my life. :shrug:

[OldDartmouthMark]

"Hipsters"? Who are these evil "hipsters" to which you all are referring? Why must we pigeonhole people into dorky categories such as this? :rolleyes:

Regarding the concept of gentrification in the downtown/north end, what does this mean, really? A couple of generations ago, the Gottingen Street area was one of the main shopping districts of the city - the place to go downtown. As city growth/change happened back 40 - 50 years ago, it went into decline as it was neglected for various reasons (such as the growth of suburban malls, building of the Cogswell interchange, etc.). Now as we start to see Halifax evolve this area is seeing a rebirth.

Truthfully, from somebody who has lived in the Halifax area a long time, it's nice to see this neighborhood turn around and see some growth and new life. From my youth I remember this place as being a neighbourhood that you just didn't walk through - whether real or imaginary, that was it's reputation. These days, I don't hear any threats of tearing down Uniacke Square, so I don't see people of lower income being completely forced out of the neighborhood. Therefore, what can it hurt if there is some new healthy growth in the area?

It almost seems as though there is an expectation that once a neighbourhood hits a low point, it should remain that way until the end of time to avoid "gentrification". Cities change, neighborhoods change, people will live where they can afford to live. I think it's the natural ebb and flow of city neighborhoods.

With the idea developing now to provide the opportunities for people of all income ranges to live in the same neighborhood, I think there are a lot of positive effects that can come from this revitalization. Wielding terms like gentrification seems like trying to somehow put a negative slant to the situation - evil, rich "hipsters" swooping in and taking the land from poor downtrodden folk - rather than see it as it really is. The neighbourhood is evolving and will continue to do so just as it does in many cities all over the country. Overall, I don't see it as a bad thing.

[Drybrain]

I agree with this. Have yet to witness the use of this term, and I've lived in NS all my life. :shrug:


I've encountered it plenty, but ALWAYS in the context of Nova Scotians warning me about how small-minded and closed Nova Scotia society is, or reading editorials in the Chronicle Herald about how NS must get over its anti-CFA thinking.

But I've never actually encountered that kind of thinking. I sometimes feel like (some)Nova Scotians have a very distorted view of the province—that it is profoundly racist, or super hostile to outsiders, or struck with the direst poverty this side of Greece. I wonder where all this self-negativity comes from.

In any case, yeah, anti-CFA attitudes have not been even the slightest hindrance to my integration into the province/city.

[OldDartmouthMark]

I've encountered it plenty, but ALWAYS in the context of Nova Scotians warning me about how small-minded and closed Nova Scotia society is, or reading editorials in the Chronicle Herald about how NS must get over its anti-CFA thinking.

But I've never actually encountered that kind of thinking. I sometimes feel like (some)Nova Scotians have a very distorted view of the province—that it is profoundly racist, or super hostile to outsiders, or struck with the direst poverty this side of Greece. I wonder where all this self-negativity comes from.

In any case, yeah, anti-CFA attitudes have not been even the slightest hindrance to my integration into the province/city.

There does seem to be a contingent of self-effacing bluenosers for sure, but I don't really run into this on a daily basis. If you read the comments section on the Herald, a person would be led to believe that it comprises 99% of our population - but this, I believe is the vocal minority - the "lunatic fringe" if you will - and certainly not a fair representation of our population.

I am very happy that you've had a positive experience moving here from Toronto and I truly hope that your stay in Halifax will be all you want it to be.

I see so much potential for this place moving into the future, it's just going to keep getting better. :tup:

[Drybrain]

There does seem to be a contingent of self-effacing bluenosers for sure, but I don't really run into this on a daily basis. If you read the comments section on the Herald, a person would be led to believe that it comprises 99% of our population - but this, I believe is the vocal minority - the "lunatic fringe" if you will - and certainly not a fair representation of our population.


Oh yeah, that's a nutso crew.

I did encounter some of the woe-is-us, we're-so-backwards attitude among some NS expats in Ontario and Alberta, though. Most of them seemed to want to move back home eventually anyway though, so I guess it couldn't have been that bad for them!

[counterfactual]

"Come from away" is more myth than fact, in my view. I grew up in Nova Scotia, returning after several years "away". I've lived and worked in small towns in the Valley, South Shore and northern NS, as well as in Halifax. I can say in honesty that I have never heard anyone use the term "come from away", except perhaps in irony.

That's not to say there's not parochialism: there's plenty of that and it's certainly not confined to this province. But as for Nova Scotians who like "throwing around" the CFA term, I've yet to meet any of them.

Never heard the term? I'm not sure where you guys have been been. I grew up in NS and then also lived away for years. And I've heard it being used by Nova Scotians plenty first hand and heard plenty second hand stories as well.

Hell, here's a damn story using the term in its headline at the Cape Breton Post:

http://www.capebretonpost.com/News/Local/2012-11-28/article-3129970/Come-from-aways-Cameron-and-Morgan-invested-into-Order-of-Nova-Scotia/1

Here's Jordi Morgan showing some obvious suspicion of a "Come From Away", Laurel Broten:

http://www.thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/1217199-please-don-t-import-ontario-style-liberalism

It's used all over the Maritimes. Here's a bit of the background:

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=bb7dcc05-9117-4203-885f-7af42fc35be4

It's not hard to find its use. Just go read the comments to a story like this in the CH; the very FIRST comment speaks about "loathing" certain CFAs (the Toronto variety, it seems). There are other people in the comments who admit to using the term, or viewing others in this way, and others who relate stories and experiences being so labeled.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/1173961-bluenose-hospitality-masks-coolness-toward-come-from-aways

I've also heard it being used by people not from Nova Scotia, but living here now, to make sense of how they do feel, at times, treated differently because they are not from here.

Let's be honest. There's a reason why the Ivany Report and politicians and other community leaders say that Nova Scotians need to be a lot better at welcoming migrants and new Canadians. It's because poll after poll demonstrates attitudes among Nova Scotians that they're simply not open and welcoming to immigrants, migrants, and new comers and think attracting more new Canadians is a bad idea; even though we're bleeding thousands of people to the West every year, in a way that's not sustainable.

The term is real. It's used. It has a history here. It is part of the "vernacular", as the History professor says in the CH story. So, let's not pretend.

[counterfactual]

I agree with this. Have yet to witness the use of this term, and I've lived in NS all my life. :shrug:

I don't agree with this. See my post above.

[counterfactual]

I've encountered it plenty, but ALWAYS in the context of Nova Scotians warning me about how small-minded and closed Nova Scotia society is, or reading editorials in the Chronicle Herald about how NS must get over its anti-CFA thinking.

But I've never actually encountered that kind of thinking. I sometimes feel like (some)Nova Scotians have a very distorted view of the province—that it is profoundly racist, or super hostile to outsiders, or struck with the direst poverty this side of Greece. I wonder where all this self-negativity comes from.

In any case, yeah, anti-CFA attitudes have not been even the slightest hindrance to my integration into the province/city.

I'm happy you've not experienced this Drybrain, but I have immigrant friends-- people not from ROC, but far off countries-- who *have* struggled with local racism, hostility, everything.

And I think pointing out this reality, doesn't make me a "self-effacing bluenose". In fact, this sounds like it's a convenient way to attack the messenger rather than address the message.

There are similar problems elsewhere; Nova Scotia is not wholly special in this sense. But with our demographic challenges and de-population, it's one that had to be acknowledged and addressed, not wished away.

[counterfactual]

"Hipsters"? Who are these evil "hipsters" to which you all are referring? Why must we pigeonhole people into dorky categories such as this? :rolleyes:

Regarding the concept of gentrification in the downtown/north end, what does this mean, really? A couple of generations ago, the Gottingen Street area was one of the main shopping districts of the city - the place to go downtown. As city growth/change happened back 40 - 50 years ago, it went into decline as it was neglected for various reasons (such as the growth of suburban malls, building of the Cogswell interchange, etc.). Now as we start to see Halifax evolve this area is seeing a rebirth.

Truthfully, from somebody who has lived in the Halifax area a long time, it's nice to see this neighborhood turn around and see some growth and new life. From my youth I remember this place as being a neighbourhood that you just didn't walk through - whether real or imaginary, that was it's reputation. These days, I don't hear any threats of tearing down Uniacke Square, so I don't see people of lower income being completely forced out of the neighborhood. Therefore, what can it hurt if there is some new healthy growth in the area?

It almost seems as though there is an expectation that once a neighbourhood hits a low point, it should remain that way until the end of time to avoid "gentrification". Cities change, neighborhoods change, people will live where they can afford to live. I think it's the natural ebb and flow of city neighborhoods.

With the idea developing now to provide the opportunities for people of all income ranges to live in the same neighborhood, I think there are a lot of positive effects that can come from this revitalization. Wielding terms like gentrification seems like trying to somehow put a negative slant to the situation - evil, rich "hipsters" swooping in and taking the land from poor downtrodden folk - rather than see it as it really is. The neighbourhood is evolving and will continue to do so just as it does in many cities all over the country. Overall, I don't see it as a bad thing.

But I wholly agree with this. :D

[Drybrain]

I'm happy you've not experienced this Drybrain, but I have immigrant friends-- people not from ROC, but far off countries-- who *have* struggled with local racism, hostility, everything.

And I think pointing out this reality, doesn't make me a "self-effacing bluenose". In fact, this sounds like it's a convenient way to attack the messenger rather than address the message.

There are similar problems elsewhere; Nova Scotia is not wholly special in this sense. But with our demographic challenges and de-population, it's one that had to be acknowledged and addressed, not wished away.

Oh, I'm sure it's a real thing--there's even a name for it and everything!

But I do feel, and this is just a hunch, of course (being Canadian-born, I can't compare the immigrant experience between any of the provinces I've lived in) that we spend a lot of unproductive time lamenting it, perhaps beyond the degree the problem merits.

I know that in my office of about 25 people, more than half are CFA. From Ontario, Manitoba, B.C., Saskatchewan, Lebanon, England, China and Brazil, and the U.S. I can't speak for anyone, but we all seem to get along pretty swimmingly.

We have a city in which the development community--literally our city builders--are largely Middle Eastern and Lebanese. We have a provincial economy in which immigrants integrate more quickly and work in their chosen field more frequently than in most of the country. So we seem to overlook our immigration successes and strengths, as well.

I'm sure there are a lot of cultural quirks I don't yet fully understand here, and no doubt there is a more deep-rooted suspicion of non-locals in a place that has traditionally received relatively few immigrants, and which has an especially strong sense of place and local culture. But my initial impression is that the CFA thing is maybe more talked about than reflected in day-to-day-life. And to seem degree, of course, suspicion of non-Canadians is everywhere. We see it in the temporary foreign worker controversy, in the panic over Asian real-estate investment in large cities, in the difficulty of recognizing non-Canadian academic and business credentials, etc.

It's definitely true, of course, that Nova Scotia's additional demographic problems make it imperative that we work extra hard to combat anti-newcomer attitudes here.

[someone123]

It's kind of hard to talk about because, on the one hand, there's always room for improvement, and it's weird to pat yourself on the back for being open and progressive, but I don't think Halifax is bad compared to other parts of North America.

I could probably write an essay on this but the "CFA" thing is one of the many areas where I feel like the self-image of people in Halifax is pretty heavily detached from reality.

I am not sure why this happened. I suspect that one factor is the portrayal of the region and city in the media; the national media have a habit, for example, of presenting the city as ipso facto racist because of what happened 50 years ago in Africville. They don't place those events in their historical context. Most parts of Canada back then didn't have black people, period, so implying that they were more enlightened back then is bizarre.

Atlantic Canada sometimes seems to serve as a source of schadenfreude for Central Canada in particular. The symptoms of this are narratives about backwardness, racism, poor fishermen on pogey, brutal winter storms, and on and on. The impression of the region you'd get from the news is way out in left field compared to reality. I wonder if people in NS have internalized this to some extent.

An interesting corollary to this is the question of how many negative trends in the region are caused by the negativity. Would the region be significantly better off if the portrayals were slanted in a positive direction?

[ns_kid]

Sometime this fall, the city will have a new arena. Well newly-named, in any case, with some long-overdue renovations.

Metro Centre will be rebranded as Scotiabank Centre, as per this piece from Metro Halifax:

Scotiabank Centre it is as Halifax Metro Centre gets its new name

And the new name is … Scotiabank Centre.

At a much-anticipated presser on Wednesday during the lunch hour, Trade Centre Limited and the city of Halifax announced that Scotiabank Centre will become to the new name for the Halifax Metro Centre.

The announcement was officially made inside the Metro Centre, with Scotiabank paying $650,000 per year over 10 years for naming rights.

Halifax regional councillors voted Tuesday to award the naming rights for the 35-year-old facility to the “highest scoring proponent.”

Moments after that vote, Trade Centre Limited issued a news release inviting media to meet the new Metro Centre partner for the event on Wednesday.

A staff report suggests the Metro Centre needs $5 million in refurbishments including improved seating and washroom facilities, which would require a “significant capital investment” by HRM, which owns the facility.

Bids for the naming rights were evaluated primarily on “net present value of financial contribution,” along with exclusivity, financial stability, and company fit.

The renovations are badly needed though I remain skeptical that there can be a significant improvement within the current footprint. The concourse is far too narrow during sold-out events and the pitch of the seats does not allow for great sightlines. And don't get me started on the effect of those skyboxes on the experience of those seated in the higher levels of the upper bowl.

But any improvement to the terrible washrooms will be welcome. As will be more comfortable seats, though I have a great fear that there will be an attempt to increase capacity by reducing the seat size.

I should say, I'm not a big fan of selling off naming rights to public buildings. But if economics dictates the need, I don't suppose you could ask for a more appropriate sponsor than the BNS, considering it began just two blocks away, on the corner of Duke and Granville, in 1832.

[eastcoastal]

"Come from away" is more myth than fact, in my view. I grew up in Nova Scotia, returning after several years "away". I've lived and worked in small towns in the Valley, South Shore and northern NS, as well as in Halifax. I can say in honesty that I have never heard anyone use the term "come from away", except perhaps in irony.

That's not to say there's not parochialism: there's plenty of that and it's certainly not confined to this province. But as for Nova Scotians who like "throwing around" the CFA term, I've yet to meet any of them.

I've been called come from away - I'm not.

My father, who was in municipal politics in NS for years has been told in public meetings that he can't have an opinion because he's a "come from away" (this, after living in the province for 30+ years, raising four children here, working in his local community, volunteering etc.) from his COLLEAGUES.

I've read posters in this forum explain that Tim Bousquet (sp) should have nothing to say about municipal affairs because he's not from here. The CFA term wasn't used, but the cultural baggage was.

This thread is currently treading on the cusp of blaming gentrification in Halifax on Ontario money driving out "real" Nova Scotians. No one has called them Come From Aways yet, but we might as well be.

All that said.

I don't think this is unique here - plenty of people are suspicious of those who are "other," and it's a convenient tool to pull out when we want to disassociate from a problem ("gentrification," for example) and imply that the problem is not caused by us, or those with whom we share an identity ("real Nova Scotian," "not-a-hipster"). By extension, it helps absolve us of responsibility for fixing someone else's problem.

I don't think the CFA term is the problem, and it's not an issue that's confined to Nova Scotia.

[Colin May]

Oh, I'm sure it's a real thing--there's even a name for it and everything!


We have a city in which the development community--literally our city builders--are largely Middle Eastern and Lebanese. We have a provincial economy in which immigrants integrate more quickly and work in their chosen field more frequently than in most of the country. So we seem to overlook our immigration successes and strengths, as well.

But my initial impression is that the CFA thing is maybe more talked about than reflected in day-to-day-life. And to seem degree, of course, suspicion of non-Canadians is everywhere. We see it in the temporary foreign worker controversy, in the panic over Asian real-estate investment in large cities, in the difficulty of recognizing non-Canadian academic and business credentials, etc.

It's definitely true, of course, that Nova Scotia's additional demographic problems make it imperative that we work extra hard to combat anti-newcomer attitudes here.
People from all over built this city. They built communities,generously gave their time to all kind of institutions and initiatives. They built a society without a thought of money profit.
The TFW programme is a farce as is the nanny programme.
I agree with the need for more immigrants but what immigrants can we afford ? We need immogrants who can speak one of our official languages, have a written job offer and don't need all manner of services. When I use the word 'immigrants' I am not including refugees. The retention of immigrants is terrible, and well documented.

[OldDartmouthMark]

I don't agree with this. See my post above.

Well, there certainly seems to be evidence to prove the contrary to my experience, but I stand my ground on my statement. Maybe I don't travel in the circles of those for whom this is a significant part of their outlook... I'm not sure.
:2cents:

[counterfactual]

I've been called come from away - I'm not.

My father, who was in municipal politics in NS for years has been told in public meetings that he can't have an opinion because he's a "come from away" (this, after living in the province for 30+ years, raising four children here, working in his local community, volunteering etc.) from his COLLEAGUES.

I've read posters in this forum explain that Tim Bousquet (sp) should have nothing to say about municipal affairs because he's not from here. The CFA term wasn't used, but the cultural baggage was.

This thread is currently treading on the cusp of blaming gentrification in Halifax on Ontario money driving out "real" Nova Scotians. No one has called them Come From Aways yet, but we might as well be.

All that said.

I don't think this is unique here - plenty of people are suspicious of those who are "other," and it's a convenient tool to pull out when we want to disassociate from a problem ("gentrification," for example) and imply that the problem is not caused by us, or those with whom we share an identity ("real Nova Scotian," "not-a-hipster"). By extension, it helps absolve us of responsibility for fixing someone else's problem.

I don't think the CFA term is the problem, and it's not an issue that's confined to Nova Scotia.

Great points. All agreed. Thanks.

Just as an aside, here's a website Bousquet tweeted to today, concerning a single amendment to the Regional Plan. It has nothing to do with CFA, but if you read the link-- which looks to be a Co-op website for Eastern Shore, you see the distinction is made:

People presented personal stories about why they had chosen to live in Musquodoboit Harbour, whether they had been born there, or come from away.

http://www.easternshorecooperator.ca/breaking-news.php

Again, it's not overtly negative, but, perhaps even unconsciously, the writer feels the need to make the distinction, and uses the CFA label.

FWIW, I did find that "CFA" use is less prevalent in Halifax than in rural or outlying areas of Nova Scotia, where its use is most common. That might explain some of the folks on this thread never encountering it. I'm not sure.

[counterfactual]

People from all over built this city. They built communities,generously gave their time to all kind of institutions and initiatives. They built a society without a thought of money profit.
The TFW programme is a farce as is the nanny programme.
I agree with the need for more immigrants but what immigrants can we afford ? We meed immogrants who can speak one of our official languages, have a written job offer and don't need all manner of services. When i use the word 'immigrants' I am not including refugees. The retention of immigrants is terrible, and well documented.

Totally agree that people from all over built this city. But on immigrants... we need more new Canadians and not only can we *afford* them, but can't afford *not* to welcome them here.

It's a mistake to assume that only immigrants with "job offers" can be "afforded".

Studies have shown, time and time again, that immigrants are much more entrepreneurial, much more likely to start a small business, than Canadians born here.

In fact, just a day ago, the Conference Board of Canada released a study showing immigrant businesses are also much more likely to export to the U.S. and beyond, than other Canadian businesses:

http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/1378139/businesses-owned-by-recent-immigrants-more-likely-to-export-to-the-us-and-beyond

People think immigrants will take their job. They don't want your job. And they don't want to work for you, either.

[OldDartmouthMark]

FWIW, I did find that "CFA" use is less prevalent in Halifax than in rural or outlying areas of Nova Scotia, where its use is most common. That might explain some of the folks on this thread never encountering it. I'm not sure.

It does sound more like a rural thing, and I've always lived in the city, which means that I'd probably be considered CFA if I moved there... (joking ;)).

[Colin May]

Totally agree that people from all over built this city. But on immigrants... we need more new Canadians and not only can we *afford* them, but can't afford *not* to welcome them here.

It's a mistake to assume that only immigrants with "job offers" can be "afforded".

Studies have shown, time and time again, that immigrants are much more entrepreneurial, much more likely to start a small business, than Canadians born here.

In fact, just a day ago, the Conference Board of Canada released a study showing immigrant businesses are also much more likely to export to the U.S. and beyond, than other Canadian businesses:

http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/1378139/businesses-owned-by-recent-immigrants-more-likely-to-export-to-the-us-and-beyond

People think immigrants will take their job. They don't want your job. And they don't want to work for you, either.
A lot of 'skilled' immigrants come here without a job offer and then end up in menial jobs. I had internationally recognised qualifications and I knew there were positions available and accepted an offer from a well known company and after a few years moved to metro to work for a multinational company. I could have worked in Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver.
We all read about people with professional qualifications unable to find work when they emigrate to Canada. I cannot understand why Canada takes in immigrants and their families who are not proficient in French or English and have no job offer. Refugees are different as we are fulfilling our international obligations.
Some immigrants start businesses which grow to large corporations, Frank Stronach is probably the best known example.
Alberta can afford to take people in and provide services.
It seems to me that this cry for more immigrants ignores the past record of people arriving in Nova Scotia and then rapidly leaving. I think the province sees warm bodies as increased transfer payments.
As a small province with little industry it is obviously difficult to attract and retain immigrants.
I have seen a lot of immigrants and refugees arrive in Halifax and some moved on within a day or two and some took longer before leaving and others stayed and made a go of it. I remember two Bosnian families asking about opportunities in Halifax and if it was better in Toronto or Calgary.
When we came to Canada we decided to throw ourselves into Canadian life and not seek out people from where we had left. The past is the past and the future is a new journey - old baggage is best left behind. The point of leaving a homeland is to give your children a better future free of the old culture.

[Drybrain]

People from all over built this city. They built communities,generously gave their time to all kind of institutions and initiatives. They built a society without a thought of money profit.
The TFW programme is a farce as is the nanny programme.
I agree with the need for more immigrants but what immigrants can we afford ? We need immogrants who can speak one of our official languages, have a written job offer and don't need all manner of services. When I use the word 'immigrants' I am not including refugees. The retention of immigrants is terrible, and well documented.

Where are you from, if you don't mind me asking?

Anyway, it's hard to persuade people with stats, but for what it's worth, Halifax has better employment outcomes for immigrants than any of Canada's big three cities--Halifax gets very few refugees; most of our newcomers are skilled in some way or educated, and on a per capita basis are bigger job creators than the Canadian-born population. Plus our retention stats have gone way up. They still have room to improve, of course, but I find these discussions often in involve discussion of recent but outdated stats from 96 or 2001--retention more than doubled since then.

As far as the lure of Alberta for immigrants. Well, no doubt it'll likely be easier to find work there. That goes for all Canadians. I worked for United Way Toronto last year and they were starting to see new immigrants contemplating moving west. It sucks, but that's Canada right now. As I mentioned, stats indicate newcomers are doing better here than in much of Ontario. As Someone123 said, I think part (certainly not all) of Nova Scotia's problem is persistent negativity--maybe part of our out-migration is due to people assuming things will be easier elsewhere, or young people fresh out of school blaming Nova Scotia for a job market that's tough to crack, and not having then perspective to know that, shit, that's all over the place. I know a few gainfully employed people who have moved to Ontario for 'opportunities' and I keep thinking 'what opportunities?' Ontario is basically in the same boat. Getting your first post-grad job or getting in your feet as a new immigrant is certainly no easier--I saw a lot of hardship when I worked at United away, and the stats reflect that.

Anyway, long winded way of saying we are attracting immigrants with entrepreneurial spirit.. I think part of our problem attracting immigrants is simply a bad reputation, partially due to out own self-image, and partially due to lack of visibility.

[Colin May]

Where are you from, if you don't mind me asking?

Anyway, it's hard to persuade people with stats, but for what it's worth, Halifax has better employment outcomes for immigrants than any of Canada's big three cities--Halifax gets very few refugees; most of our newcomers are skilled in some way or educated, and on a per capita basis are bigger job creators than the Canadian-born population. Plus our retention stats have gone way up. They still have room to improve, of course, but I find these discussions often in involve discussion of recent but outdated stats from 96 or 2001--retention more than doubled since then.

As far as the lure of Alberta for immigrants. Well, no doubt it'll likely be easier to find work there. That goes for all Canadians. I worked for United Way Toronto last year and they were starting to see new immigrants contemplating moving west. It sucks, but that's Canada right now. As I mentioned, stats indicate newcomers are doing better here than in much of Ontario. As Someone123 said, I think part (certainly not all) of Nova Scotia's problem is persistent negativity--maybe part of our out-migration is due to people assuming things will be easier elsewhere, or young people fresh out of school blaming Nova Scotia for a job market that's tough to crack, and not having then perspective to know that, shit, that's all over the place. I know a few gainfully employed people who have moved to Ontario for 'opportunities' and I keep thinking 'what opportunities?' Ontario is basically in the same boat. Getting your first post-grad job or getting in your feet as a new immigrant is certainly no easier--I saw a lot of hardship when I worked at United away, and the stats reflect that.

Anyway, long winded way of saying we are attracting immigrants with entrepreneurial spirit.. I think part of our problem attracting immigrants is simply a bad reputation, partially due to out own self-image, and partially due to lack of visibility.

I don't think the stats reflect the true state of immigration to Nova Scotia.

Example : Universities have often relied on immigrants, generally from Europe. The TFW documents show Dal as having a TFW.
Managers and skilled engineers for certain industries came from Europe - pulp and paper and Michelin and mining.
Ship building imported many skilled people from the UK. Hawker Siddeley used UK immigrants in the 1970's when building the most sophisticated drilling rigs and drillships in the world here in Halifax.
Irving did the same in Saint John for the 1980's frigate programme and in February were in Scotland looking for high end management talent form the naval programme and specifically targeted people who had managed UK warship building programmes. Their second trip to the UK.

I have met many immigrants and refugees and many of them remain in my mind many years after meeting them.
Here is one anecdote. A man arrived in Halifax from Toronto to go through 2 days of interviews and exams to be qualified as a doctor in Canada. He trained in Ceylon to the same stadard and using the same syllabus as students in the UK. He passed the same exam as UK students and then practiced in Ceylon until emigrating and entering into practice in the UK. He then improved his credentials and became a surgeon in the UK. Eventually he learned that Canada needed doctors and decided to emigrate to Canada in the expectation he would quickly open a practice after being registered.
Ontario refused to recognise his UK credentials, experience and fluency in English and ordered him to spend the time and money to travel to Halifax to be tested for English language proficiency and sit an exam. ( On the same weekend two middle-eastern women doctors were sitting the same exams and I am sure one failed as her english language skills were very poor. )

This study is quite good, see page 30 for retention data : http://community.smu.ca/atlantic/documents/Akbari209-1draftNSreportJuly11.pdf

[JET]

I remember the 1988 Dartmouth mayor election, Dartmouth roots vs come from away.
http://www.thecoast.ca/halifax/national-lampoon/Content?oid=958315

[counterfactual]

I remember the 1988 Dartmouth mayor election, Dartmouth roots vs come from away.
http://www.thecoast.ca/halifax/national-lampoon/Content?oid=958315

Not surprising-- but still ugly. Can see how it might be used as a "wedge" in local politics, but hopefully we wouldn't see something that obvious and ugly today.

For those in doubt about the use of CFA, or differential treatment of people from away, in Nova Scotia and the maritimes more broadly..

A few links/reads. First, an interesting piece from a Cape Breton blogger:

"Locals vs. Come-From-Aways"

http://dreambigcapebreton.com/2012/05/07/locals-vs-come-from-aways/

It’s a complicated issue. There’s this cultural myth that says Cape Bretoners – well, all folks from the Atlantic Provinces, really – are over-the-top hospitable people, that they’ll make you feel ‘right at home’. And our tourism industry depends on this myth to keep people coming here.

But at the same time, if our culture is all we really have (and on this island where pretty much all major industry is gone, that is the case), then we’re going to hold that culture close to our chests and dole out membership very carefully. Not just everyone who crosses the causeway and hangs out here for a while gets to be a Cape Bretoner.

Read the comments to that post. Not a single person doubts or disputes the existence either of the use or understanding in the community that people make the distinction. They all relate their explanations for the distinction, stories, etc.

And now a PEI blogger on point:

http://books.squidoo.com/anne-of-green-gables-only-on-prince-edward-island

Quote:
Part of Anne’s difference, aside from the red hair, was that she was from away. We still think of people not born on Prince Edward Island as CFAs – Come From Aways. I left home when I was 16 to go to university and I did not really return home to live until I was 56. I spent 40 years wandering in the desert as I like to say. And yet, when I went back home, it was as if I never left.

Meanwhile, a woman who has lived there and worked there for the same 40 years is still viewed as an outsider. It’s that kind of a community.


Here's a broadcast of Calgary Mayor, Naheed Nenshi talking about the "come from away" attitude in the maritimes and why it's holding us back:

http://www.cbc.ca/maritimenoon/2012/08/16/come-from-away-attitude-advice-on-poisons-significant-fossil-find/

Here's another post from a writer speaking from personal experience:

http://dailygumboot.ca/2010/05/maitland-nova-scotia/

There is a very strong sense of identity in rural Nova Scotia’s communities. To be “from” Maitland means that you were born there (and odds are your parents and grandparents, etc. were from there too). If you weren’t born there, then you were a “come from away.” I don’t remember ever explicitly hearing the term “come from away’” while growing up, but people were identified by where they were from. And as a result I will always be from Maitland, even though I will never move back and my mum (who is from Truro) will never be from Maitland even though she has lived there over 30 years and likely will never move away.

From a blogger on the South Shore:

http://bettinagrunwald.wordpress.com/

Recently I went to a “Newcomers” evening in Liverpool, Nova Scotia. Although living here now well over a decade, and being a first generation Canadian, I’m forever a Come From Away… but that’s OK, as I arrived on the South Shore by choice and not just birth luck! Check out this professional video of the original landowners before me


Another Nova Scotia writer:

http://www.jenniferchapin.net/blog/category/nova%20scotia

This province has not, in history, been welcoming to outsiders. The designation of being a "come from away" (in Massachusetts I believe the term is "wash ashore") is one that the province is only now starting to relinquish as it realizes that it needs the expertise, wisdom, insight and unique perspective that all of us from "away", whether it be from New York or Louisiana, Gambia, Iran or Pakistan contribute. This infusion moves us from being insular to global, and threatens no one.

I could go on and on... but agree with the last writers' sense of optimism.

Time to let go of the clan rule. Halifax seems to be better on this count than rural Nova Scotia, but it still has plenty more distance to come.

[Drybrain]

Here's a broadcast of Calgary Mayor, Naheed Nenshi talking about the "come from away" attitude in the maritimes and why it's holding us back:


Cool links.

Only quibble I have with anything said in there is that Nenshi is very much a typical Calgary mega-booster, and he's really invested in this idea of Alberta as a pure meritocracy, which is total nonsense. So I think he's a great mayor, but he's not the most objective/rational person to weigh in on this issue, I don't think. (He says Calgary is successful because "no one cares who your daddy was." The reason for Calgary's success, as I'm sure we all know, lies underground a few hundred kilometres north of the city.)

[counterfactual]

Cool links.

Only quibble I have with anything said in there is that Nenshi is very much a typical Calgary mega-booster, and he's really invested in this idea of Alberta as a pure meritocracy, which is total nonsense. So I think he's a great mayor, but he's not the most objective/rational person to weigh in on this issue, I don't think. (He says Calgary is successful because "no one cares who your daddy was." The reason for Calgary's success, as I'm sure we all know, lies underground a few hundred kilometres north of the city.)

Yeah, there's some BS there for sure. But I think Nenshi has done a great job as mayor and, in particular, has explicitly called out and battled urban sprawl and the sprawl lobby more than any other politician in the country (and the sprawl lobby has reacted strongly, doing their best behind the scenes to beat him in the next election).

[OldDartmouthMark]

Not surprising-- but still ugly. Can see how it might be used as a "wedge" in local politics, but hopefully we wouldn't see something that obvious and ugly today.

For those in doubt about the use of CFA, or differential treatment of people from away, in Nova Scotia and the maritimes more broadly..

A few links/reads. First, an interesting piece from a Cape Breton blogger:

"Locals vs. Come-From-Aways"

http://dreambigcapebreton.com/2012/05/07/locals-vs-come-from-aways/



Read the comments to that post. Not a single person doubts or disputes the existence either of the use or understanding in the community that people make the distinction. They all relate their explanations for the distinction, stories, etc.

And now a PEI blogger on point:

http://books.squidoo.com/anne-of-green-gables-only-on-prince-edward-island

Quote:


Here's a broadcast of Calgary Mayor, Naheed Nenshi talking about the "come from away" attitude in the maritimes and why it's holding us back:

http://www.cbc.ca/maritimenoon/2012/08/16/come-from-away-attitude-advice-on-poisons-significant-fossil-find/

Here's another post from a writer speaking from personal experience:

http://dailygumboot.ca/2010/05/maitland-nova-scotia/



From a blogger on the South Shore:

http://bettinagrunwald.wordpress.com/



Another Nova Scotia writer:

http://www.jenniferchapin.net/blog/category/nova%20scotia



I could go on and on... but agree with the last writers' sense of optimism.

Time to let go of the clan rule. Halifax seems to be better on this count than rural Nova Scotia, but it still has plenty more distance to come.

Holy Cripes! Talk about beating a topic to death! :haha:

Obviously I've been living under a rock, or just tend to block out ignorance, not sure. It does seem to be something that exists more in the media than on-the-street, IMHO.

That said, Mayor Savage defeated Keating in that election, so "come from away" didn't have much credence in that situation.

To me it seems to be something that gets pinned on us or that we pin on ourselves more than it actually exists in day to day life. Nor does it exist only in our little world - I've heard several instances of "westerners" looking down on "easterners" coming there for work, but have always chalked it up to the ignorance of individuals rather than something that all "westerners" own. I think that should hold true here as well - an idea owned by an individual perhaps rooted in ignorance rather than a recognized part of our "culture". Sorry but I refuse to own this.

Sigh... looking forward to reading something a little more positive here. You guys are getting depressing... :P :cheers:

[Colin May]

The CFA stuff is common across the world - they just use a different term.
Sometimes it is city folk taking the p*** out of country folk and vice versa.
Or in India and N Ireland and many other parts of the world it's religion.
We settled here very well, made friends with Canadians our age and just got on with life.
I had some people working under me complaining about me and others ' taking jobs from Canadians'. I would tell them to hit the books and sit the exams to get the same qualifications I had and then Canada wouldn't need me - a few of them were smart enough to take the advice.
Nenshi is a smooth talker with levity but what the hell does he know about the maritimes other than what a few whiners told him in Calgary. If he is so smart send him to Sydney to sort out the problems of Cape Breton, it's easy to look good when your city is top of the heap and full of head offices. Make him a party leader or premier in the maritimes and see how he does.
I have found maritimers to be very hard working. I had a US executive raving about Nova Scotia employees and looking for more when the offshore was booming and Sedco hired a lot of Nova Scotians for their Halifax built rigs and the people stayed with Sedco, progressed through the ranks and worked all over the world.

[worldlyhaligonian]

You guys have gone off the rails with this one.

I've been called out for saying "from away"... let me clarify... I don't mean another country usually, its mostly directed at people from Toronto who come to Halifax and try to stop progress because they came here and fear Halifax will become another Toronto. (And who's money trumps that of local people.)

It won't! It will never be shitty Toronto because its based in a beautiful natural setting. By the same token, high density development downtown and in the north end won't stop it being a 10 minute drive to be in the woods. Let's embrace the good things about cities.

My point about hipsters... sorry, but its a real thing! I grew up with real hippies and punks, not rich kids from Toronto who move to Halifax and act as if they are poor or hard done by or even a part of the community.

Case in point from that coast article, the person who wrote it Speaking out against affordable housing:

"moved to Nova Scotia from Toronto, like so many others, to attend university. Clare manages The Bus Stop Theatre—which is Halifax’s only black-box rental venue—has an active art practice and is a collaborator on several community development projects, including Street Stories, Earth Church, North End Pirate Radio and Fry Fuel."

The "community" I know from this area are to busy working to have time to spend on things like this, in fact, many are the decedents of people from Africville. When they say community they mean the white people who are gentrifying. Its not all bad, but its hardly all good. I'm white, but I'm also from Halifax. Real talk.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Calgary is the worst large city in Canada, I don't care about what anybody in Calgary has to say. The economy is entirely based upon resource extraction, otherwise nobody would live there.

We should be copying smaller european cities.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Cool links.

Only quibble I have with anything said in there is that Nenshi is very much a typical Calgary mega-booster, and he's really invested in this idea of Alberta as a pure meritocracy, which is total nonsense. So I think he's a great mayor, but he's not the most objective/rational person to weigh in on this issue, I don't think. (He says Calgary is successful because "no one cares who your daddy was." The reason for Calgary's success, as I'm sure we all know, lies underground a few hundred kilometres north of the city.)

Totally. Just like when people out there call people in the east "lazy".

Sorry we aren't destroying the environment while being huge philistines. :yuck:

[Hali87]

What puts the CFA thing in perspective for me is going on the Canada threads and reading posts from people from Newfoundland (or even talking with Newfoundlanders in real life). They will casually mention how in many parts of NL, even St. John's, your last name is very important. It will completely shape people's first impressions of you, and will likely be the difference between getting a job or not getting one. Beyond that, it also matters whether someone is Anglican or Catholic. I'm not sure what happens if someone isn't Anglican or Catholic, but my guess is that being Muslim or Jewish isn't exactly an advantage. Rural vs. Urban roots also seem to matter a lot more than here, and I often wonder if people of non-British Isles or French heritage feel alienated there.

I've never really seen any of this in Nova Scotia, and in Halifax all of this seems 100% alien. I've never heard of anyone being judged by their last name (except, perhaps, Mike Savage) and most people I know here are prejudiced against "Christians" if anything.

[Hali87]

I actually went to an event at the Bus Stop Theatre a few months ago; it was people talking about their experiences on Gottingen Street and in the North End. I can't remember who was hosting it, but it may have been Clare - in any case, the host expressed her frustration, at the beginning, that most of the people who showed up were white university students. That comment in itself was probably more relevant than anything that preceded (although a part of that also irks me - I'm half Asian, but not "visibly" - so does or does that not give my opinion more credence somehow? If I announced that I was half Asian would that give my opinion more credence? Whatever.) . I watched about 10 people get up and sing the North End's praises and decry any naysayers who would dare imply that crime etc. happens there.

I felt awkward in that the only meaningful story I could have told involved being robbed at knifepoint and seeing my best friend nearly bleed to death as a result. I decided not to ruin everyone else's night by telling it.

I guess the point of that anecdote is there are a few different overlapping clusters of people in the North End - people who live in real poverty, people who struggle with addiction, mental health issues, homelessness etc., people who aren't directly a part of that world but are exposed to it and interact with it, and people who consider the poverty and crime "character" in the abstract sense and externalize any of the real consequences of it. For this last group the neighbourhood is a bunch of enlightened people who "get it" while nobody else does - being able to live in a poor neighbourhood is just further proof that they "get it". What they tend to forget is that the way it became known as a poor neighbourhood in the first place is because so many people living there had no real choice in where they lived.

[counterfactual]

What puts the CFA thing in perspective for me is going on the Canada threads and reading posts from people from Newfoundland (or even talking with Newfoundlanders in real life). They will casually mention how in many parts of NL, even St. John's, your last name is very important. It will completely shape people's first impressions of you, and will likely be the difference between getting a job or not getting one. Beyond that, it also matters whether someone is Anglican or Catholic. I'm not sure what happens if someone isn't Anglican or Catholic, but my guess is that being Muslim or Jewish isn't exactly an advantage. Rural vs. Urban roots also seem to matter a lot more than here, and I often wonder if people of non-British Isles or French heritage feel alienated there.

I've never really seen any of this in Nova Scotia, and in Halifax all of this seems 100% alien. I've never heard of anyone being judged by their last name (except, perhaps, Mike Savage) and most people I know here are prejudiced against "Christians" if anything.

Yeah, NFLD is very bad for this. I find St. John's folks very, very, different from people from rural NFLD (find the latter, genuinely friendly and much less self-consciously pretentious).

[counterfactual]

I actually went to an event at the Bus Stop Theatre a few months ago; it was people talking about their experiences on Gottingen Street and in the North End. I can't remember who was hosting it, but it may have been Clare - in any case, the host expressed her frustration, at the beginning, that most of the people who showed up were white university students. That comment in itself was probably more relevant than anything that preceded (although a part of that also irks me - I'm half Asian, but not "visibly" - so does or does that not give my opinion more credence somehow? If I announced that I was half Asian would that give my opinion more credence? Whatever.) . I watched about 10 people get up and sing the North End's praises and decry any naysayers who would dare imply that crime etc. happens there.

I felt awkward in that the only meaningful story I could have told involved being robbed at knifepoint and seeing my best friend nearly bleed to death as a result. I decided not to ruin everyone else's night by telling it.

I guess the point of that anecdote is there are a few different overlapping clusters of people in the North End - people who live in real poverty, people who struggle with addiction, mental health issues, homelessness etc., people who aren't directly a part of that world but are exposed to it and interact with it, and people who consider the poverty and crime "character" in the abstract sense and externalize any of the real consequences of it. For this last group the neighbourhood is a bunch of enlightened people who "get it" while nobody else does - being able to live in a poor neighbourhood is just further proof that they "get it". What they tend to forget is that the way it became known as a poor neighbourhood in the first place is because so many people living there had no real choice in where they lived.

Thoughtful post, Hali.

But you should have told the story. It would have either been a show stopper in a funny way.

Or... may have won you some kudos for witnessing a death in the North End, and yet.... and yet here you are praising north end at Bus Stop Theatre!

[IanWatson]

For this last group the neighbourhood is a bunch of enlightened people who "get it" while nobody else does - being able to live in a poor neighbourhood is just further proof that they "get it". What they tend to forget is that the way it became known as a poor neighbourhood in the first place is because so many people living there had no real choice in where they lived.

Spot on! There's a comment on The Coast story from a Joshua Collins that exemplifies this perfectly. Somehow Alterego's is honorable and creates community, while Humanity Cafe does not. Somehow it's not possible for a place to be "home" if it takes the form of an apartment building with bachelor units and not a shared single-unit dwelling with a fire pit in the back.

[xanaxanax]

Spot on! There's a comment on The Coast story from a Joshua Collins that exemplifies this perfectly. Somehow Alterego's is honorable and creates community, while Humanity Cafe does not. Somehow it's not possible for a place to be "home" if it takes the form of an apartment building with bachelor units and not a shared single-unit dwelling with a fire pit in the back.

Well to be fare Alterego's is more of a community place they host djs and dance parties/ a backpackers information centre, its a place for people to mix and socialize, Humanity Cafe doesn't offer any of that, it has nothing to do with who lives where or in what.

[Hali87]

Alterego's also has a policy of hiring from within the local neighbourhood, so that might be it.

[Hali87]

Thoughtful post, Hali.

But you should have told the story. It would have either been a show stopper in a funny way.

Or... may have won you some kudos for witnessing a death in the North End, and yet.... and yet here you are praising north end at Bus Stop Theatre!

I ended up just not saying anything - most of the people there were just watching anyway. It was an interesting event, but frustratingly one-sided and self-congratulatory. Thankfully I didn't actually see anyone die (my friend ended up being ok but was hospitalized for a while). Incidentally, another buddy of mine lived above the Bus Stop Theatre a couple years ago and witnessed the fight that resulted in the death of Raymond Taavel.

[mcmcclassic]

I didn't think I'd ever say this but here it goes - This empty lot looks better than what was there before (former crack houses). Looks like all six buildings are gone.

http://i.imgur.com/tgoJ0Fml.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/5M1bbhjl.jpg

Photos by me.

[counterfactual]

I ended up just not saying anything - most of the people there were just watching anyway. It was an interesting event, but frustratingly one-sided and self-congratulatory. Thankfully I didn't actually see anyone die (my friend ended up being ok but was hospitalized for a while). Incidentally, another buddy of mine lived above the Bus Stop Theatre a couple years ago and witnessed the fight that resulted in the death of Raymond Taavel.

I actually do think the concerns that the North End is "unsafe" are overblown by mainstream media-- usually CH and other dailies using local crime for click bait because crime coverage sells-- but I also find the self-congratulatory/pretentiousness of some people's "North End-er" attitude also difficult to bear.

Seems like you were served with a heaping helping of the latter.

[spaustin]

I didn't think I'd ever say this but here it goes - This empty lot looks better than what was there before (former crack houses). Looks like all six buildings are gone.


Yep. That corner has been a drag on the neighbourhood for over 30 years. Nice to see it go.

[fenwick16]

This is moving along nicely. One from today.

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5594/14220650990_6fdeef3f0a_b.jpg


I wonder if the blank concrete wall could be covered with ivy? The renovations will make MacKeen Tower look much better but the blank concrete wall will still be there (as seen in the rendering below):

(source: http://www.halifax.ca/boardscom/drc/documents/Case19058.pdf)
http://imageshack.com/a/img850/9181/y7seg.jpg


If the ivy would grow up the wall by 30 to 40 feet as in the image below then it would hide much of the blank concrete wall. Ivy doesn't seem to require much sunlight since I have it on my north-facing wall in a narrow 6 foot wide passageway between my house and the adjacent house. (It doesn't need much maintenance either since it keeps coming back even after ripping it down :)).

(source: http://www.urbantoronto.ca/news/2011/10/vancouverism-part-1-early-concord-buildings-1995-2003 )
http://www.urbantoronto.ca/sites/default/files/imagecache/display-slideshow/images/articles/2011/10/3115/urbantoronto-3115-8812.jpg

[connect2source]

Here in Vancouver, at a condo called Electric Avenue, they installed fake window-like frames along the blank painted concrete wall which I find quite successful in 'softening' the appearance and less invasive and potentially damaging than ivy. Something like this could work well for the MacKeen tower.

source : http://vancouver.livehigh.com/vancouver/downtown/condo/electric_avenue
http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag130/Dean_Ellison/Electric_Avenue_Condominiums_933_Hornby_Street_Downtown_Vancouver_Condos_Wall_Financial_Developments_BCS1433-1_zps4192354c.jpg

[fenwick16]

Here in Vancouver, at a condo called Electric Avenue, they installed fake window-like frames along the blank painted concrete wall which I find quite successful in 'softening' the appearance and less invasive and potentially damaging than ivy. Something like this could work well for the MacKeen tower.

source : http://vancouver.livehigh.com/vancouver/downtown/condo/electric_avenue
http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag130/Dean_Ellison/Electric_Avenue_Condominiums_933_Hornby_Street_Downtown_Vancouver_Condos_Wall_Financial_Developments_BCS1433-1_zps4192354c.jpg

Thanks for posting this information connect2source. There are some brutal blank concrete walls in Halifax that it would look good with that fake window system.

[ILoveHalifax]

How about some art work? A giant mural? A light show? Anything but fake windows.

[counterfactual]

Here in Vancouver, at a condo called Electric Avenue, they installed fake window-like frames along the blank painted concrete wall which I find quite successful in 'softening' the appearance and less invasive and potentially damaging than ivy. Something like this could work well for the MacKeen tower.

source : http://vancouver.livehigh.com/vancouver/downtown/condo/electric_avenue
http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag130/Dean_Ellison/Electric_Avenue_Condominiums_933_Hornby_Street_Downtown_Vancouver_Condos_Wall_Financial_Developments_BCS1433-1_zps4192354c.jpg

Not a bad idea..

[Keith P.]

In downtown Halifax, we could have faux-windows on a faux-Victorian!

[eastcoastal]

You guys have gone off the rails with this one.

I've been called out for saying "from away"... let me clarify... I don't mean another country ...

Come From Away, in my (white) experience, is not often directed at people from another country. It's usually used to indicate someone is not considered part of the community. Sometimes it's even used within provincial boundaries (mainland vs. Cape Breton).

Its purpose is to immediately cast the subject of the term as "other" or "them," with opinions that are not as valid as "ours" or "mine."

It's divisive and lazy.

[eastcoastal]

POST DELETED

Plenty of people are capable of irrational, emotional rambling.

[JET]

POST DELETED

there was a forum member banned for making homophobic remarks (so I've heard, I away at the time) another member makes misogynistic comments and no bats an eye. If there are not any women members on this forum, there is no wonder why. Any thoughts on this from a moderator?

[counterfactual]

there was a forum member banned for making homophobic remarks (so I've heard, I away at the time) another member makes misogynistic comments and no bats an eye. If there are not any women members on this forum, there is no wonder why. Any thoughts on this from a moderator?

Have to agree. Just seeing those comments now. Very out of line.

[Dmajackson]

there was a forum member banned for making homophobic remarks (so I've heard, I away at the time) another member makes misogynistic comments and no bats an eye. If there are not any women members on this forum, there is no wonder why. Any thoughts on this from a moderator?

Good catch. I saw the post but did not see the last sentence.

I can't speak about former members but yes homophobic/sexist/racist remarks are not allowed on the forum. People are allowed their opinions but it must be expressed in a way that is not degrading to others.

If myself or the other moderators do not catch problem posts please use the report option on the top-right of each post and one of the admins will respond promptly.

[JET]

should the quote also be deleted in post 5661?

[curnhalio]

I apologize for my comments, and to those who I have offended. My intention was not to offend anyone. I took my dislike of people who use emotion as their sole base for preventing development too far, and it was unnecessary.

[JET]

I apologize for my comments, and to those who I have offended. My intention was not to offend anyone. I took my dislike of people who use emotion as their sole base for preventing development too far, and it was unnecessary.

Thanks, we'll move on.

[counterfactual]

Anyone see this?


"Ad urges end to Nova Centre protest"

Over 300 take out full page in Herald to back convention centre, other developments

Over 300 businesses and individuals put their names to a full-page ad in The Chronicle Herald on Wednesday that criticizes continued obstruction of the new Halifax Convention Centre and other projects by groups like Heritage Trust of Nova Scotia.

The advertisement, with a headline It’s Time to be Bold, says Halifax is at a critical economic juncture and that timely investments in infrastructure are essential to economic prosperity and growth.

“Finding people to invest in our region is challenging and we cannot afford to discourage attempts to make this city great,” the ad said.

“Groups like Heritage Trust must focus on their own mandate and leave the business of economic development to those who step up to advance our city.”

Business colleagues Wadih Fares of WM Fares Group, Phil Otto of Revolve and Robert Zed of Triangle Strategies are behind the ad, which contains the names of a wide array of supporters such as developers, construction and property management companies, advertising agencies, lumber companies, restaurants, and clothing and insurance outlets.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/1220054-ad-urges-end-to-nova-centre-protest

[JET]

the mighty 300 taking on the Heritage Trust; that should shut them up eh? Nothing like a fair fight.

[Drybrain]

the mighty 300 taking on the Heritage Trust; that should shut them up eh? Nothing like a fair fight.

It is weird. Halifax is definitely odd in this regard—and while I agree with Wadih Fares in the first clip (i.e., "Why don't they put their resources to actually preserving our heritage properties?") I think it's a bit weird for a bunch of pretty well-to-do businesspeople, who are more or less getting their way, to start dumping all over a citizens group. (Even if I do have major problems with said group.)

[ILoveHalifax]

It has not been a fair fight for years.
The so called heritage trust has been obstructing development for decades, costing the developers millions of extra dollars.
The final result is that we the people of Halifax have to pay for those extra costs in our rents and mortgages. Additionally there is a lack of jobs both in construction, and on going jobs. We loose out on attracting investment into our local economy. Citizens of Halifax are forced to go elsewhere for work.
Hopefully the heritage trust will be forced to close down and disband, since they don't have a clear mandate.

[JET]

It has not been a fair fight for years.
The so called heritage trust has been obstructing development for decades, costing the developers millions of extra dollars.
The final result is that we the people of Halifax have to pay for those extra costs in our rents and mortgages. Additionally there is a lack of jobs both in construction, and on going jobs. We loose out on attracting investment into our local economy. Citizens of Halifax are forced to go elsewhere for work.
Hopefully the heritage trust will be forced to close down and disband, since they don't have a clear mandate.

the funny thing about 'we the people' (a phrase that the Tea Baggers in the US use where a minority of folks puport to speak for the majority of folks)
is that 'the people' don't have one voice, we all get a say. I have a sense that most folks support development and Heritage. What I know is that the 300 don't speak for me; as a taxpayer I'm glad that i can support Heritage Trust, while also supporting development that follows the rules and respects/preserves built heritage.

[Drybrain]

I have a sense that most folks support development and Heritage.

I agree with that entirely. Unfortunately, the public discussion, as facilitated by the media (who tend to find it easiest to report on things in a combative he-said/she-said story structure) is entirely slanted to give voice to the loudest and simplest opinions on both sides.

[JET]

I agree with that entirely. Unfortunately, the public discussion, as facilitated by the media (who tend to find it easiest to report on things in a combative he-said/she-said story structure) is entirely slanted to give voice to the loudest and simplest opinions on both sides.

I've been thinking that the last couple of days, the only stuff I read about HT in the news is when there is a conflict, I hardly ever see any of the good work that they do in the news.

[Keith P.]

I've been thinking that the last couple of days, the only stuff I read about HT in the news is when there is a conflict, I hardly ever see any of the good work that they do in the news.

We don't know if they do any good work. All we see/hear is obstructionism and "No!!!" from them just about every time anything is proposed downtown.

Frankly, they are a tiny, special-interest minority who have managed to derail development in downtown for over 20 years. Nobody voted for them, and it is highly questionable whether the policies adopted by HRM Council over the years have actual broad public support. Most people were not engaged in this debate and even now most voters are disconnected from the actual issues. The amount of misinformation they have put forward is astounding, yet it gets reported as fact by a lazy news media.

I hope they lose their collective shirts.

[OldDartmouthMark]

The final result is that we the people of Halifax have to pay for those extra costs in our rents and mortgages. Additionally there is a lack of jobs both in construction, and on going jobs. We loose out on attracting investment into our local economy. Citizens of Halifax are forced to go elsewhere for work.

Hmmm... just a little exaggeration, maybe? You really give them a lot of credit for their affect on the state of the city - didn't realize they wielded so much power.

Hopefully the heritage trust will be forced to close down and disband, since they don't have a clear mandate.

I would think a better solution for all would be for them to reorganize and develop a clear mandate focused on effectively protecting heritage buildings while working with developers to allow new development to coexist with heritage. Part of that work should include working with civic and provincial governments to develop laws which actually have the teeth to protect such properties and define reasonable compromises so as to not impede development unnecessarily.

[Colin May]

We don't know if they do any good work. All we see/hear is obstructionism and "No!!!" from them just about every time anything is proposed downtown.

Frankly, they are a tiny, special-interest minority who have managed to derail development in downtown for over 20 years. Nobody voted for them, and it is highly questionable whether the policies adopted by HRM Council over the years have actual broad public support. Most people were not engaged in this debate and even now most voters are disconnected from the actual issues. The amount of misinformation they have put forward is astounding, yet it gets reported as fact by a lazy news media.

I hope they lose their collective shirts.

They won't lose their collective shirts to a bunch of crybabies.

Fares et al didn't complain when Louis Lawen appealed a community council decision to the UARB and delayed the 27 storey Can Euro tower. And Fares et al were silent when David Harrison the planning consultant for Lawen ripped the planning staff to shreds in the appeal hearing.

And Fares et al didn't complain when Monaco Investments appealed a community council decision to kill a planning application before any public hearing.
And Fares et all didn't complain when Monaco went to the UARB and planners hired by residents ripped to shreds the professional abilities of certain HRM planning staff.
You appear to prefer not to face facts. Go back and read the Bousquet article where he laid out the appoved developments that were never built, especially the Sobeys 25 year old permit for the MT land at Cogwell.

Fares et all are complaining because real estate sales in Dartmouth and Halifax are in the dumpster, condos aren't selling, and not many people can afford the rents in buildings that were touted as condos but now are rental buildings.

Wadih Fares told CBC radio that bankers and financial institutions were becoming worried at what is taking place in Halifax. Fares is implying that HT and others are the cause of banker concerns. The bankers are concerned because they expected to get paid out when the condos were sold and now developers can't quickly pay back the money they borrowed.

[Drybrain]

.

Wadih Fares told CBC radio that bankers and financial institutions were becoming worried at what is taking place in Halifax. Fares is implying that HT and others are the cause of banker concerns. The bankers are concerned because they expected to get paid out when the condos were sold and now developers can't quickly pay back the money they borrowed.

That is patently nonsense. What bothers me more than the ad is that all these media outlets are doing "oh the poor developers" stories. Jesus. Could we have a more juvenile and simplistic civic dialogue around these issues? (No, probably we couldn't.)

[counterfactual]

They won't lose their collective shirts to a bunch of crybabies.

Fares et al didn't complain when Louis Lawen appealed a community council decision to the UARB and delayed the 27 storey Can Euro tower. And Fares et al were silent when David Harrison the planning consultant for Lawen ripped the planning staff to shreds in the appeal hearing.

And Fares et al didn't complain when Monaco Investments appealed a community council decision to kill a planning application before any public hearing.
And Fares et all didn't complain when Monaco went to the UARB and planners hired by residents ripped to shreds the professional abilities of certain HRM planning staff.
You appear to prefer not to face facts. Go back and read the Bousquet article where he laid out the appoved developments that were never built, especially the Sobeys 25 year old permit for the MT land at Cogwell.

Fares et all are complaining because real estate sales in Dartmouth and Halifax are in the dumpster, condos aren't selling, and not many people can afford the rents in buildings that were touted as condos but now are rental buildings.

Wadih Fares told CBC radio that bankers and financial institutions were becoming worried at what is taking place in Halifax. Fares is implying that HT and others are the cause of banker concerns. The bankers are concerned because they expected to get paid out when the condos were sold and now developers can't quickly pay back the money they borrowed.

Call me crazy, but I get the sense you have a problem with Wadih Fares.

I don't. Like him or not, he's been a massive positive factor in building this city, as has the broader Lebanese community.

[counterfactual]

the funny thing about 'we the people' (a phrase that the Tea Baggers in the US use where a minority of folks puport to speak for the majority of folks)
is that 'the people' don't have one voice, we all get a say. I have a sense that most folks support development and Heritage. What I know is that the 300 don't speak for me; as a taxpayer I'm glad that i can support Heritage Trust, while also supporting development that follows the rules and respects/preserves built heritage.

I think most folks support development and they support heritage in the abstract, but in specific contexts, don't know a lot about heritage attached to a given building or development, but what they do know, is that the Heritage Trust likes to sue people and kill development.

I have absolutely *no* problem with these 300 business, political, and community leaders taking out this ad. This is free speech, and they're battling the Heritage Trust by trying to persuade via public opinion.

It's not like the politicians are working behind the scenes to cut HT funding, or gut them, or audit them. No political or corporate powers are being abused. Instead, they're expressing their opinion that what HT is doing is wrong.

And it *is* wrong. This development is one that has been endorsed and supported by three levels of democratically elected governments, including a municipal election where the big majority winning Mayoral candidate-- Mike Savage-- included support for Nova Centre as part of his campaign. It is also now at the very latest stage of pre-development after a lengthy public consultation, in which the public feedback certainly wasn't "block this!"; it was "improve the design this way and that way").

Barring a specific referendum on this development, which would be costly and unnecessary, this is the closest thing to the will of The People we might hope to have.

Instead, HT are using lawyers to fight the democratic will of The People as expressed through consultation and elected governments.

They're a special interest lobby group who need to rely on lawyers to fight their battles because they've been so tin-eared, so useless in doing what they're supposed to do-- preserve heritage, which includes, not polarizing the public against heritage with their idiotic litigation campaigns.

Haligonians look at this and see a massive hole in the ground downtown and HT battling to stop a developer from building on it. They're baffled: where is the heritage interest here? What are these Heritage clowns preserving? A hole in the ground?

I actually think this is preferable to the Ramia law suit. But Ramia has a right to sue HT, and HT now have a right to sue to block, and they have.

Just because they have a right to do so, doesn't make it a responsible thing to do.

[counterfactual]

That is patently nonsense. What bothers me more than the ad is that all these media outlets are doing "oh the poor developers" stories. Jesus. Could we have a more juvenile and simplistic civic dialogue around these issues? (No, probably we couldn't.)

You don't think what Fare is saying here is true?

I absolutely think so. There's lately been some development certainty in the downtown core since HRMxD.

It's one of the reasons we're seeing so much development picking up so quickly since 2011. After a long cold winter for development-- where HT would sue anything and everything and block this and that, and you had many NIMBY councillors blocking, and approval was often 50/50 shot-- now, for the last few years, if you sought to build, and met the criteria, you'd likely get approval.

This no doubt led banks to be more willing to open the wallet and provide the necessary capital to move these projects forward. It's a *huge* factor in the life or death of the downtown. If the capital is not flowing from the banks to finance these projects, it all dies. Everything. Forget the Alexandra restoration. Forget a restoration of the Dennis.

Now, with HT out there suing again (22 Commerce Sq, Nova Centre, etc), *of course* banks are going to be wary of lending; and seek more collateral. They'd also likely put the screws on further lending by existing developments, etc.

I think his concerns are real and legitimate.

[Drybrain]

You don't think what Fare is saying here is true?

I absolutely think so. There's lately been some development certainty in the downtown core since HRMxD.


I don't really think it has to do with bank lending nervousness, but as you say, with that HRMxD certainty (and Halifax coming a bit late to the downtown revitalization thing).


I think the HT have put themselves in a position of relative powerlessness, so I doubt any bank is going to look at their efforts and get spooked. I could be wrong, but I strongly doubt there's much to back up that particular claim.

[xanaxanax]

I don't really think it has to do with bank lending nervousness, but as you say, with that HRMxD certainty (and Halifax coming a bit late to the downtown revitalization thing).


I think the HT have put themselves in a position of relative powerlessness, so I doubt any bank is going to look at their efforts and get spooked. I could be wrong, but I strongly doubt there's much to back up that particular claim.

Nothing to back up the claim? Theres dozens of records of facts and cases of building amendments and difficulties because of the HT

[Colin May]

Call me crazy, but I get the sense you have a problem with Wadih Fares.

I don't. Like him or not, he's been a massive positive factor in building this city, as has the broader Lebanese community.

I have no problem with Mr Fares as a person.

I have a problem with his nonsensical view ' that once a council has made a decision that should be the end of it '.
The laws of Canada have never been like that. Our democracy has never been like that. Individuals and organisations have challenged governments in court for centuries. We have a system of checks and balances and it works quite well; frustrating at times but democracy, due process and the rule of law ensures we all get along. The claim by Ramia that delays are costing him million seems a tad hyper inflated. If he put out specific numbers we could ascertain the veracity of his claim, but until then I'll just take it as a hissy fit.

A developer has a right to appeal a planning decision and such right has frequently been exercised. I referenced sevral recent cases in metro.
Is Wadih Fares saying that Metlej should just pack up and forget his appeal ? Is Wadih Fares saying that he and other developers who are refused a project should just go back to the office, have a moan and go find another project ?
It is a stupid proposition.


HRM had no legal basis to give $2,000,000 to Seaport Farmers Market so the staff worked out a deal to give the Port of Halifax $2,000,000 and then the Port of Halifax gave the money to the market. At the time I told friends the payment was not allowed by law because you can't do by the back door what you cannot do through the front door. I never wrote to Mayor Kelly or my councillor because all the hype about the wonderful new market and what a great project it was ensured that HRM would give them the money no matter what anyone said. I also said the market was a crap idea and would not work all week and would go bust within a year. I was wrong, it took more than a year to go bust. It doesn't work all week. We use it every week and i know several of the investors who lost their money and even urged me to buy shares.
Subsequently the HRM auditor general examined the $2,000,000 payment to the Port of Halifax and told council they had no legal power to make the expenditure. They listened to him but does anyone believe that if any ordinary citizen had written to Mayor Kelly, the council and the CAO that they would have paid any attention ? Course not. They get crap opinions from lawyers who answer to the CAO, not the council, and the most recent example occurred when the city solicitor admitted that he didn't have much knowledge of the provisions of the Condominium Act when council discussed the closure and sale of Grafton Street and the issue of public access to the covered space when Nova Centre is complete. Hendsbee knew more about the condo legislation and warned staff and council that the act would prevent the land being designated as public space. Perhaps the city and Ramia will ask the province to change the act to suit the quest for public space.

[Colin May]

You don't think what Fare is saying here is true?

I absolutely think so. There's lately been some development certainty in the downtown core since HRMxD.

It's one of the reasons we're seeing so much development picking up so quickly since 2011. After a long cold winter for development-- where HT would sue anything and everything and block this and that, and you had many NIMBY councillors blocking, and approval was often 50/50 shot-- now, for the last few years, if you sought to build, and met the criteria, you'd likely get approval.

This no doubt led banks to be more willing to open the wallet and provide the necessary capital to move these projects forward. It's a *huge* factor in the life or death of the downtown. If the capital is not flowing from the banks to finance these projects, it all dies. Everything. Forget the Alexandra restoration. Forget a restoration of the Dennis.

Now, with HT out there suing again (22 Commerce Sq, Nova Centre, etc), *of course* banks are going to be wary of lending; and seek more collateral. They'd also likely put the screws on further lending by existing developments, etc.

I think his concerns are real and legitimate.

The banks are worried about the dramatic slump in residential property sales in metro. The banks expected the construction loans for condos to be paid out shortly after completion.
In addition the changes in lending criteria and mortgage insurance brought in by the federal government have had a negative effect on property sales across the country.
Condo sales in metro are in the basement and developers are actively seeking rental clients in competition with larger businesses such as Killam.
Fares is diverting attention from the real issue and trying to shift it to HT. It may work in the very short term but once the press start looking at the data the story will change.

[Drybrain]

Nothing to back up the claim? Theres dozens of records of facts and cases of building amendments and difficulties because of the HT

I think that we in Halifax often feel like we excel in the NIMBY department and being a developer is way harder here than elsewhere. Developers may corroborate that because, hey, why not? It might convince us to loosen restrictions.

But really, I'm not convinced it's so bad here.

I'll reference the city I know best, Toronto. Every time a development, even a five or six-storey one, gets proposes, even along a major corridor, this happens (http://saveourvillage.ca/).

And very real delays result, with these cases dragging out for years and even ending up at the Ontario Municipal Board (a tribunal which can trump city council decisions). If anything

Or you have cases like the Mirvish-Gehry project, where city staff actually recommended scaling down the proposal with the adamant backing of the city's chief planner.

Or you have cases like this one (http://urbantoronto.ca/database/projects/231-237-college-condos), where something happened that I can't even imagine happening in Halifax: City council actually came in mid-way through the application process, in response to citizen outrage over the demolition of the old buildings on the site (the little cluster here (http://goo.gl/maps/hjN1x)) and declared them heritage, as council has the authority to do in that city.

City council waltzing in and telling developers NO and cases dragging on for years is surely the sort of thing that would scare investors, but it's just the cost of doing business. I don't think it's good that things take years to go through approvals, of course, but it's not unique to Halifax at all.

We might say, "Toronto can afford such obstruction" but that's like saying "were so poor, we can't afford proper planning and citizen inputs." And besides, this stuff long long predated the city's current boom.

There are countless more examples. They even inspired this parody Twitter account (https://twitter.com/NIMBYTO) and stories like this in the press (http://metronews.ca/news/toronto/924919/is-toronto-in-the-grips-of-a-nimby-uprising/).

The Heritage Trust is definitely more active than their equivalents elsewhere, and there's definitely a case to be made that they're exceeding their mandate and getting involved where they have no place. But ultimately, I don't feel we're especially NIMBY-afflicted, or especially more difficult a city to work in, at least post-HRMxD. Of course developers will leverage the perception that we are.

[Keith P.]

They won't lose their collective shirts to a bunch of crybabies.

Fares et al didn't complain when Louis Lawen appealed a community council decision to the UARB and delayed the 27 storey Can Euro tower. And Fares et al were silent when David Harrison the planning consultant for Lawen ripped the planning staff to shreds in the appeal hearing.

And Fares et al didn't complain when Monaco Investments appealed a community council decision to kill a planning application before any public hearing.
And Fares et all didn't complain when Monaco went to the UARB and planners hired by residents ripped to shreds the professional abilities of certain HRM planning staff.
You appear to prefer not to face facts.

You appear to have a real personal issue with developers Mr. May. I don't know why nor do I care. But your facts and reality seem to have only a casual relationship.

Go back and read the Bousquet article where he laid out the appoved developments that were never built, especially the Sobeys 25 year old permit for the MT land at Cogwell.

Is that where you get your "facts"? Bousquet? Well, that explains a lot. Jeezus! If you said you used a Ouija board I would give you more credit.

This conversation is over.

[counterfactual]

The banks are worried about the dramatic slump in residential property sales in metro. The banks expected the construction loans for condos to be paid out shortly after completion.
In addition the changes in lending criteria and mortgage insurance brought in by the federal government have had a negative effect on property sales across the country.
Condo sales in metro are in the basement and developers are actively seeking rental clients in competition with larger businesses such as Killam.
Fares is diverting attention from the real issue and trying to shift it to HT. It may work in the very short term but once the press start looking at the data the story will change.

Even accepting everything you say is true, isn't another scenario is just as reasonable? That is, with the slump in sales downtown, then there is even more pressure on developers. This, in turn, has made HT's meddling litigation and useless non-heritage obstructionism *that* much more of a danger, that much more of a problem, such that action had to be taken.

Isn't that just as likely? I'd say. That's probably what's going on here.

[JET]

Counterpoint is the argument that HRM not following it's policies and procedures (as identified by a provincial judge), and developers using heritage obstructionism and bullying tactics are the real problems that are present.
Interesting that we have not heard from Waye on this topic, perhaps because so much is before the courts...

[Colin May]

Even accepting everything you say is true, isn't another scenario is just as reasonable? That is, with the slump in sales downtown, then there is even more pressure on developers. This, in turn, has made HT's meddling litigation and useless non-heritage obstructionism *that* much more of a danger, that much more of a problem, such that action had to be taken.

Isn't that just as likely? I'd say. That's probably what's going on here.

The slump I reference is in metro. I looked at sales in Halifax, Dartmouth and Bedford. The data is freely available. Too much product and not enough purchasers when combined with the changes by the federal government and the result is very slow sales. Al Demmings is the only real estate agent who talks to the media about the significant drop in sales.
Banks are more concerned about cash flow and HT opposition to a convention centre and a hotel is of no consequence to residential sales.

[counterfactual]

Counterpoint is the argument that HRM not following it's policies and procedures (as identified by a provincial judge), and developers using heritage obstructionism and bullying tactics are the real problems that are present.
Interesting that we have not heard from Waye on this topic, perhaps because so much is before the courts...

We actually have.

Waye wrote an op-ed about a month ago, basically telling all the nay-sayers on the Nova Centre to stick it, as it is too late to try to oppose this thing.

We're far beyond that stage.

[counterfactual]

So, remember these new commercial/retail expansion plans by the Halifax Airport?

http://thechronicleherald.ca/metro/1202632-airport-hopes-city-plan-will-fly

Quote:

Meanwhile, the so-called airport city could also include a commercial development close to the highway that would be geared toward airport-goers and the general public.

While Spurway said the development is still at the early conceptual stage, the airport’s 20-year master plan notes it could accommodate a variety of commercial services.

Roughly 46 hectares on the west side of the airport property, closest to Highway 102, are reserved for this commercial development, the master plan says.

But Spurway stressed that this larger-scale development is a long-term strategy.

Although critics have said the region already has enough large-scale commercial development parks, such as Bayers Lake, Bedford Commons and Dartmouth Crossing, Dalrymple said there is demand for commercial growth surrounding the airport.

He pointed to the rapid growth of the existing commercial parks as well as new growth in the East Hants are

Geez, Barry Dalrymple is a moron.

Anyways, pretty vague on the "airport city", right?

Well, in case you were wondering what Stanfield International Airport *really* had in store for its ridiculous plan to expand into another sprawl mall development, even worst than the other hell holes we have (ie Dartmouth Crossing), get a load of this:

Staples: Do we need a massive shopping complex way outside the city?

Aerotropolis’ plan highlights need for city to control development at EIA

EDMONTON - What the heck is going on at the Edmonton International Airport?

A number of Edmonton city councillors are starting to wonder about and question the so-called “aerotropolis” plan for commercial and industrial expansion in and around the airport.

The City of Leduc, population 26,000, and the County of Leduc, population 12,000, are in on the Edmonton Regional Airports Authority’s aerotropolis plan. The three are hoping to build a massive commercial development south of the airport and its runways, both on county and airport lands. The aerotropolis is to include outlet stores, hotels, restaurants, exhibition and conference centres, and manufacturing and distribution firms

[....]


Edmonton Regional Airports Authority spokesperson Traci Bednard says they are simply making best use of half of the airport’s 7,000 acres. There’s no need for 3,500 acres of the land for aviation purposes. If that land can be put to good commercial use, the revenues from lease and rent money from any new development can help pay for airport operations, Bednard says. “It’s one less dollar we have to charge to an air traveller or an airline to use the airport.”

The Edmonton region does not have a pure outlet mall yet, Bednard says, so The Landmark plan is filling that market niche.


http://www.edmontonjournal.com/Staples+need+massive+shopping+complex+outside+city/9998664/story.html?fb_action_ids=10154357623950711&fb_action_types=og.comments

[Drybrain]

Geez, Barry Dalrymple is a moron.



Pointing to East Hants' horrible business parks as an example to follow clinches that assessment.

[counterfactual]

Pointing to East Hants' horrible business parks as an example to follow clinches that assessment.

Truly, a champion of the people.

[mcmcclassic]

Pointing to East Hants' horrible business parks as an example to follow clinches that assessment.

Can you explain what's so bad about the parks in East Hants? They're industrial parks not really designed for commercial purposes. They just sort of ended up that way.

[Dmajackson]

Design for a new highrise at CFB Halifax. Not terribly exciting: https://twitter.com/RCN_MARLANT/status/453222458296791040/photo/1

Crane base is in for this project! :D The only vantage point is from the MacDonald Bridge bikeway so I'll try to remember to snap a photo during my commute next week.

[curnhalio]

I'll reference the city I know best, Toronto. Every time a development, even a five or six-storey one, gets proposes, even along a major corridor, this happens (http://saveourvillage.ca/).

And very real delays result, with these cases dragging out for years and even ending up at the Ontario Municipal Board (a tribunal which can trump city council decisions). If anything

Or you have cases like the Mirvish-Gehry project, where city staff actually recommended scaling down the proposal with the adamant backing of the city's chief planner.

Or you have cases like this one (http://urbantoronto.ca/database/projects/231-237-college-condos), where something happened that I can't even imagine happening in Halifax: City council actually came in mid-way through the application process, in response to citizen outrage over the demolition of the old buildings on the site (the little cluster here (http://goo.gl/maps/hjN1x)) and declared them heritage, as council has the authority to do in that city.

City council waltzing in and telling developers NO and cases dragging on for years is surely the sort of thing that would scare investors, but it's just the cost of doing business. I don't think it's good that things take years to go through approvals, of course, but it's not unique to Halifax at all.

We might say, "Toronto can afford such obstruction" but that's like saying "were so poor, we can't afford proper planning and citizen inputs." And besides, this stuff long long predated the city's current boom.

There are countless more examples. They even inspired this parody Twitter account (https://twitter.com/NIMBYTO) and stories like this in the press (http://metronews.ca/news/toronto/924919/is-toronto-in-the-grips-of-a-nimby-uprising/).

I had heard of a NIMBY faction in Toronto, but I didn't realize how widespread it was. Really, NIMBY's are everywhere. New York has plenty of them too, believe it or not, and it sure hasn't stopped them from having some of the world's tallest buildings. Of course, NYC can use eminent domain to tell naysayers to stick it and build what they want. Barclays Center in Brooklyn is a good example of that. It doesn't seem like Toronto or Halifax have this option.

Ignoring the obvious population and km2 differences, Toronto and Halifax are more alike than we care to think. Toronto knocked down waterfront buildings and built an overhead expressway, and built really tall buildings and told Halifax to do the same. Outside of the direct downtown areas, both have large portions of the urban area taken up by single family detached homes, occupied by people hellbent on keeping them that way. Directly off of Bloor, there are tons of streetscapes that wouldn't look out of place in peninsular Halifax. I don't know this for a fact, but just looking at how the GTA has sprawled out, it looks easier to build upwards outside the centre, much like Halifax. Now there are no viewplanes in Toronto, so I think you can build tall directly downtown no problem. The issues seem to crop up just on the periphery, where heights have largely remained at house level. Driving down Bloor West, I was amazed that everything on the street is two or three storeys until you hit downtown.

If the degree of difficulty in developing is the same in either city, and Halifax was to suddenly relax some rules and "let height rip" in some areas, would that entice Toronto developers to buy and build here? Is that something we should even aim for?

[Colin May]

[QUOTE=counterfactual;6641796]So, remember these new commercial/retail expansion plans by the Halifax Airport?

http://thechronicleherald.ca/metro/1202632-airport-hopes-city-plan-will-fly
Look at the Airport Board of Directors : http://hiaa.ca/airport-authority/board-of-directors/

and here is the compensation paid to the Directors :

Board of Directors Total compensation in 2013
Chair: P. McDonough $ 67,500
Vice Chair: W. Fares $ 30,875
Secretary: J. S. Cowan $ 31,950
DIRECTORS:
R. Batherson* $ 3,700
B. Buckles $ 18,400
S. Dempsey $ 18,400
J. Hunt $ 25,788
M. Mullally $ 27,438
C. Newcombe $ 20,000
R. Wilber $ 16,600
M. Wood-Tweel $ 15,750
Notes: Amounts represent payments made in 2013
* R. Batherson joined the Board effective July 26, 2013

Nice work if you can get it. All meetings are private and the minutes are private.

[Drybrain]

The issues seem to crop up just on the periphery, where heights have largely remained at house level. Driving down Bloor West, I was amazed that everything on the street is two or three storeys until you hit downtown.


Yeah, and it isn't even so much the periphery. Just go west of Bathurst or east of Jarvis (what many people would still consider downtown, and which is dedinitely the “old” city by any definition), and the city becomes very low-rise, with highrises heavily concentrated on arterial avenues and at major intersections. I know pepole who've are surprised, after first visting the city but having seen images of the huge downtown skyline, to find that the city's old neighbourhoods are mostly semi-attached and detached houses. There aren't even that many old, large apartment buildings. The skyscrapers are really a big cluster in the financial district, and then a thin line up along Yonge, as well as a bunch in inner suburban tower blocks. (Having said that, there are zillions of these, hence the large number of highrises in the city).

One key difference is, indeed, that there are no heigh restrictions downtown except those imposed by infrastructure limitations, which is part of why they kiboshed one of Gehry's mega-tall towers.

But most of the Victorian main streets are three, two, and in some stretches even one storeys. And the city protects those streetscapes, too. (In many place, the Victorian architecture is very rundown, and in others, they're not even old Victorians, but cruddy post-war storefronts. Most of Bloor and Dundas look like undistinguished bits of some second-rate town in New Jersey or something.)

But anyway, yeah—TO and HFX are obviously hugely different in many ways, but they're strikingly similar in some ways as well. The post-HRM urban-rural political schism here is very reminiscent of the downtown/inner suburb divide that's characterized politics there since the “megacity” amalgamation in 1998.

[Dmajackson]

May Street Townhouses (photo by me today);

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2929/14573597544_a046f4fd53_c.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/urban_halifax/)