[Halifax] The Roy Halifax | 71 m | 22 fl | Completed

[-Harlington-]

Roy Building redevelopment disputed


METRO HALIFAX
Published: April 11, 2011 12:47 a.m.
Last modified: April 11, 2011 12:50 a.m.
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The municipality’s heritage advisory committee is pushing back against proposed changes to the Roy Building.

Regional council is set to decide tomorrow on the fate of the Roy Building, located at 1651 Barrington St., and the Discovery Centre building at 1595 Barrington St.

Both buildings have developers planning mixed-use commercial redevelopments.

While the heritage advisory committee approves of the Discovery Centre development, a report to council suggests plans for the Roy Building do not comply with the municipality’s policy on adjacent buildings.

“It is the opinion of the committee that the proposal does not satisfactorily address (the policy) with respect to the Barrington sub-area,” reads the report, submitted by committee chair Stephen Terauds.

On that ground, the report recommends refusing the development agreement with Starfish Properties.

A staff report on the issue, along with the opinion of the District 12 Planning Advisory Committee, recommends the development agreement be approved.

[fenwick16]

I think that Starfish Properties deserves an award for proposing to redevelop this property (Roy Building - below). With this Roy building, the Discovery Centre, Sam the Record Man buildings (across the street, also owned by Starfish) and the NFB redeveloped then Barrington Street will be a very appealing, vibrant street. If United Gulf, the Nova Centre, Salter Block and Alexander go ahead, which all contain residential units, then Barrington Street will likely be bustling with pedestrians.

(source - screen capture of Google Street View - Street View Image (http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=halifax,+ns&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Halifax,+Halifax+County,+Nova+Scotia&ll=44.646979,-63.573933&spn=0.018686,0.132093&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=44.646751,-63.573833&panoid=puKPUNGyh5Pepjz5fHAlGw&cbp=13,112.38,,0,-16.16)

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2808/royfacade.jpg

[someone123]

Unfortunately, as that photo demonstrates, the Roy Building looks awful in its current state. It was full of tenants until Starfish kicked them out. Across the street, the Sam the Record Man buildings have also sat vacant for years. Why? These vacancies have caused a great deal of damage to the street.

Starfish has done some great work downtown but I think this was a huge mistake.

Having the UG towers, Salter, and Nova Centre all go ahead is looking increasingly far-fetched. I'm not sure what's going on with the Alexander but given the success of projects like the Trillium one would think that project could also be successful.

[halifaxboyns]

I'd have to agree with Someone123 - while I think it's great they are going ahead with the developments; they are a young company and have made some really rookie mistakes, the biggest of which kicking out the tentants from both the buildings. I have to agree with SO; that's really had a disasterous effect on Barrington Street.

That being said - like I said; they are a young company and every young company makes mistakes. Hopefully they will not make the same mistake again or be seriously penalized for it. Despite the disasterous effects the mistake has made; there is no sense dwelling on it - lets get the developments approved and get the construction started.

But I will tell you; if they are one of these companies that pushes ahead to get approvals and then just sits there on it - they'd loose what little forgiveness I have.

[fenwick16]

I think that it very easy to understand, especially with the Sam the Record Man and adjacent buildings. They have plans to add two storeys and renovate the buildings (according to a recent story, they are finalizing the plans). I don't see how Starfish could proceed if they rented out the space, and how many tenants would want to rent commercial space for an indefinite time period?

With the Roy Building, it looks like it is outdated and it could very well be a fire hazard. It has portable air conditioners in several windows (this is an embarrassment for downtown Halifax). I don't know if it has fire sprinklers, but if not then it could literally be a death trap and a liability to Starfish Properties, the owner.

I think that the reason that many buildings sit vacant for years in downtown Halifax is because project approvals take years and the timing is unpredictable. This Roy Building and the Discovery Centre were supposed to have been grandfathered in (at least for a hearing) but instead a clerical error delayed it for what, 2 years? This should have been an embarrassment for the municipality and province but instead of them quickly rectifying it, both levels of government dragged it out. The Discovery Centre is a different situation since it won't be vacant until 2013.

As far as the term kicking out tenants goes - did they really evict tenants or did they just not renew rental and commercial contracts. It makes sense that they would want the buildings empty so that they could proceed with renovations/additions.

Developers aren't given much help in the HRM. The ones that stick around should be admired not criticized.

[halifaxboyns]

I would agree with you that HRM doesn't help. But they didn't help the downtown either. Tenancy within the building I'm sure could have been setup with appropriate clauses to require the end of a rental when time came for construction. I honestly miss the pool hall that was on Barrington Street in the Roy - had many good times there.

[someone123]

But I will tell you; if they are one of these companies that pushes ahead to get approvals and then just sits there on it - they'd loose what little forgiveness I have.

My big worry is that we'll end up with a giant parking lot on Barrington where the Roy Building used to be.

I guess we'll see, but I'd feel better about it if it weren't surrounded by a bunch of other derelict sites that were supposed to have similar projects.

[Waye Mason]

My understanding on the Roy is they have been very good to their commercial office tenants, but that they did not want to demise or divide the street level shops, and then get some young person in there with a great idea (Freak Lunchbox Two) and then have to kick them out a year or two later.

I think if you look at Barrington, those three blocks, you have an unfortunate circumstance of three major trends colliding.

One is urban renewal. The Discovery Centre, Roy, Sams, and NFB to CD Plus buildings are all being developed, or proposed to be developed, in the next couple years. I think when all these are done that Barrington will rebound, but only if the landlords make sure the street level shops are able to be 25-30 foot frontages. If they are hoping to get Shoppers back I don't think that will happen, or any other huge retailer. Too bad they are all in the pipe at once.

Two is the collapse of analog media and associated retail. CD Plus, Sams, Random Play, A&A Records, Carsand Mosher.... old tech. A lot of the vacancies and churn are driven by collapsing business models that have nothing to do with Barrington.

Three is government ownership. Moving Mary Black Gallery out of the Supply and Services building on Prince and Barrington was bad for the street. That should have street level shops or services. HRM or the Province (don't know if they swapped it yet) owning the parking lot at George and Barrington. The HRM neglecting the Khyber. This is the downtown urban version of what happened in Bayers Lake when the private property owner refused to landscape until HRM did the same at their salt dome. Both levels of government should lead by example and build and renovate those buildings/lots to a spec that meets the expectations of the street plan.

I think between the new developments about to happen and all the historic district money going into refurbing current buildings that Barrington has good potential, just the next few years are going to be painful. If everything was approved today, that is still 2-3 years of hoardings, construction, dust, noise before it gets back to functional. It's going to be tough.

[someone123]

It is an unfortunate series of events but mostly it is a result of poor planning and incompetence (e.g. clerical error).

The Roy retail has been vacant for what, 2 years? And the redevelopment almost certainly will be appealed. It may or may not even be approved.

Another issue is that the HRM has talked about streetscape improvements but they've dithered for so long on those that they either won't happen or will be yet another year-long inconvenience. Really HRM's neglect and mismanagement of this street cannot be overstated. The heritage rules could have been implemented in 1998.

I'm also skeptical about the NFB project and Sam starting this summer, though I don't know what's going on behind the scenes. Has the restoration of the Green Lantern Building happened?

[fenwick16]

Does anyone know what transpired last night at city hall regarding the Roy Building and Discovery Centre?

PS: Thanks hoser111. I was off by one day. I read a story in the allnovascotia.com last night (Monday) that said that it would be decided "tonight" - I realize now that they meant tonight (Tuesday). Their Tuesday edition comes out around 11PM Monday evening (Atlantic time).

[hoser111]

fenwick....it's actually tonight. Probably going on at this very moment....

[sdm]

approved to proceed to public hearing.

[resetcbu1]

approved to proceed to public hearing.

Great news, hope all these on this block will be done eventualy.... :tup:

[Empire]

The danger with both the Roy and Discovery developments is that they could both sit in a state of suspended demolition for years. Potentially the Roy could become a hole in the ground and sit that way for 10-20 years and the Discovery Centre could be gutted and look like Waterside for 10-20 years.

[sdm]

The danger with both the Roy and Discovery developments is that they could both sit in a state of suspended demolition for years. Potentially the Roy could become a hole in the ground and sit that way for 10-20 years and the Discovery Centre could be gutted and look like Waterside for 10-20 years.

If they go residential (rental) they have a greater chance of being built as there would be no required preleasing or pre selling. Once they finalize their plans they can qualify for a CMHC secured mortgage and be built.

If either project intends to pursue commercial office they will sit a very long time as they will require preleasing in a market that is beyond soft right now.

[Jonovision]

Sorry for the short notice, but I just found out there is a public information meeting this evening at 6pm on this project in Suite 201 in 1668 Barrington Street. Right above the Telus store.

And the Public Hearing has been set for May 10th.

[eastcoastal]

I find the opinions of the municipality's advisory committees pretty odd on this and the discovery centre proposal.

I heard that the Heritage Advisory Committee did not recommend the Roy proposal, but the Dist. 12 Planning Advisory Committee did.

Over at the Discovery Centre site, the opinions were reversed.

[Jonovision]

The more and more I look at this development and the more I learn about the more I like it. It has the potential to have a great mix of uses. The current building is in a state where it can no longer be saved and the new design does a good job of taking some of the important elements of the old building and integrating them with some newer ideas.

[fenwick16]

The more and more I look at this development and the more I learn about the more I like it. It has the potential to have a great mix of uses. The current building is in a state where it can no longer be saved and the new design does a good job of taking some of the important elements of the old building and integrating them with some newer ideas.

Are they planning to have any residential and retail in the Roy Building?

[sdm]

Are they planning to have any residential and retail in the Roy Building?

If they want to built it with no requirements for preleasing/ preselling and do what is best for the street the only choice is residential rental.

I still believe the building as it sits today, obviously with significant upgrades, would make a dynamic downtown loft style apartments.

[Jonovision]

Are they planning to have any residential and retail in the Roy Building?

The meeting I went to yesterday explained that it will have lots of residential space on both Barrington and Granville streets. As well as some possible venue space. Space that could be used for exhibits or small shows. And with the market being the way it is right now they are leaning towards residential. The development agreement will allow for either residential or commercial or a mixture. Meaning we could see balconies built into the design.

[fenwick16]

Great news! Thanks for the information Jonovision.

[halifaxboyns]

The development agreement hearing for the Roy Building is on the agenda for this coming Tuesday's City Council meeting (http://www.halifax.ca/council/agendasc/110510r-c-Agenda.html).

[Keith P.]

The Save The View/HT wingnuts are out in force for the hearing tonight. All the usual suspects: Peter McCurdy, Allan Robertson, and of course, everyone's favorite, Bev Miller. All of whom are predicting The End Of The World As We Know It should this be approved. Quite ridiculous. Robertson even resurrected another of those Godzilla-like gray blob schematic photos to show how these massive buildings (!) would totally overwhelm the street. Must have got a good deal on them when they got them to oppose the CC.

[kph06]

Mccurdy quickly dismissed every one at council because he feels he is older and has lived here longer, therefore he thinks is wiser than all others. What an idiot. I'm happy to see that most that oppose the work put on disjointed rants whereas the proponents speak with clarity and generally work towards a point.

[halifaxboyns]

McCurdy made me laugh.
The speaker now from Sackville totally called him out on it - appropriately so.

[kph06]

Yeah, the guy from sackville was brilliant.... And now the pacey sideshow begins

[halifaxboyns]

Yeah, the guy from sackville was brilliant.... And now the pacey sideshow begins

It's not a slideshow - it's a saga.
One of the things I love about how they have been cutting people off as soon as the 5 minutes hit.
We don't have that ability out here in Calgary; we think we should install that.

[halifaxboyns]

Oh jesus christ here comes Peggy Cameron...she's saying a recent study is saying high rise buildings are energy inefficient...i'd love to know which study that is.

[CorbeauNoir]

lol, 'ye of little faith'

[halifaxboyns]

lol, 'ye of little faith'

I think he's right. The building is falling apart and it's not a registered heritage building. If it's not registered, he should be able to demolish it, period.

I don't think the applicant is helping himself by dragging on the answer to the Mayor's questions. He should've had a firm timeline established.

[CorbeauNoir]

I think he's right. The building is falling apart and it's not a registered heritage building. If it's not registered, he should be able to demolish it, period.

I don't think the applicant is helping himself by dragging on the answer to the Mayor's questions. He should've had a firm timeline established.

He made a good point when he said the building itself isn't necessarily as important as its site.

I also liked the little jab where he recommended people try observing the skyline from a point other than the citadel. :haha:

[fenwick16]

Is Peggy Cameron the one who stated that low rise buildings are more energy efficient than high-rise buildings? How is that possible - the best way to minimize heat loss is to minimize the exterior area (walls and roofs) per interior living space. So a row house development will have lower heating cost per square foot than an equivalent detached house. An apartment building unit will have even lower heating per square foot than a row house development (usually there is only one exterior wall for an apartment).

It is amazing that people can speak with such authority and be completely wrong.

[halifaxboyns]

He made a good point when he said the building itself isn't necessarily as important as its site.

I also liked the little jab where he recommended people try observing the skyline from a point other than the citadel. :haha:

Yeah I liked that - but I think he's shooting himself in the foot by rambling on and his comment about affordable housing just cost him (I think) some votes.

[CorbeauNoir]

Yeah I liked that - but I think he's shooting himself in the foot by rambling on and his comment about affordable housing just cost him (I think) some votes.

He seems rather unprepared for a lot of these questions... which is probably unfair for me to criticize since I absolutely loathe public speaking, but still.

[spaustin]

It's too bad. He's done such great things for Barrington, but he's not a politician and he's clearly not equipped and probably wasn't expecting the cross exam from council. Makes me feel sorry for him!

Edit: It sounds like a yay from Sloane!

[CorbeauNoir]

Ech, I'm torn between watching this to the end or swapping to the Wings game...

Looks like some positive arguments from the councellors so far...

[halifaxboyns]

It's been my experience - you hire a planning consultant if you aren't great at public speaking. That's what they do in Calgary. There are some consultants there in Halifax...I'd have done that. But that's me.

I think Councillor Sloane's speach was very good. I also think Uteck is making some good points and taking some good swipes at the heritage groups. I think she's right about the tax reform...totally correct.

[halifaxboyns]

Well - that was supported. I wasn't sure, but good work.

[Dmajackson]

Well I managed to tune in just in time to see Uteck talking.

It's PASSED though which is nice. Time to switch threads :P

[someone123]

I'm still very worried about this one. The city has already issued a demolition permit and there will almost certainly be an appeal.

Hopefully we won't see another giant hole that sits abandoned for years or decades. It would be a disaster for Barrington.

[fenwick16]

Hopefully this will be the one that will alter the pattern of demolished and vacated lots. The same developer has made good on its Espace development so I think there is reason for optimism.

[Jonovision]

Council approves highrise plans
Fans say developments will revitalize Barrington Street, opponents say buildings’ height out of scale for district
By MICHAEL LIGHTSTONE City Hall Reporter
Wed, May 11 - 7:26 AM
Public hearings on two major developments proposed for downtown Halifax attracted a sizable gathering inside the council chamber at city hall Tuesday night.

Supporters and opponents of the planned mixed-use projects, not far from each other on Barrington Street, were at the hearings to let regional council know they are concerned about the future of the central business district.

But they hold opposite views on what the neighbourhood should look like. In the end, council approved both proposed highrise developments.

Fans of the proposals said the projects would help revitalize the downtown. Detractors said the buildings would be out of scale for the district, which includes a fledgling heritage conservation area that has registered heritage structures.

Towers proposed for sites that house the Roy Building and the Discovery Centre were grandfathered under a municipal planning strategy. So both development proposals were considered through an application process that predates provisions in HRM by Design.

Each project is taller than the 21 metres allowed under the new rules for development. Halifax Regional Municipality’s heritage advisory committee gave the Discovery Centre plan its blessing, but it wasn’t fond of the Roy Building’s design.

An advisory committee report to council said plans for the Roy structure don’t comply with city hall’s policy on adjacent buildings. A staff report on the building, though, recommended the development proceed.

As in previous disputes over the planning of towers downtown, the height of the proposed projects and corresponding wind and shadow matters were issues raised during Tuesday’s hearings.

One councillor noted that not only were the arguments familiar, so were the people putting them forward.

Business operators almost always support any new projects, while heritage advocates and others usually condemn major developments downtown and often criticize council and city staff for considering them in the first place.

With respect to the Roy Building, developer Louis Resnick’s sales pitch said his $40-million project would be "spectacular in function and form." The current low-rise building will be demolished soon, he told council.

Other supporters, including Coun. Dawn Sloane (Halifax Downtown), said the proposed development would give the downtown core a much-needed shot in the arm. Opponents, however, chastised council for putting its faith in projects that proponents religiously claim is the next big thing to propel the area forward.

Council heard that the development agreement for the Roy Building project says construction must start within three years.

Project foes suggested the municipal process governing the proposal might be illegal, but city hall’s top lawyer said that was not the case.

Most councillors voted in support of Resnick’s planned Roy Building development. Council voted in favour of developer Frank Medjuck’s Discovery Centre proposal, too.

During the public hearings, there were references to what kind of legacy Halifax council will leave behind. Veteran councillor Bob Harvey (Lower Sackville), who backed both developments, told his colleagues it was "an important night" for this council and the municipality.

"There’s no point having a downtown with heritage buildings that are empty from the ground up," he said.

Coun. Jackie Barkhouse (Woodside-Eastern Passage) wasn’t buying the supporters’ view that highrise projects help make for a more vibrant downtown. She opposed both developments.

"What constitutes vibrancy?" she asked.

( mlightstone@herald.ca)

[someone123]

According to the article posted in the general thread, the plan is to begin construction on this immediately after the Sam redevelopment across the street is finished sometime in the fall.

[wackypacky]

Council approves highrise plans
Fans say developments will revitalize Barrington Street, opponents say buildings’ height out of scale for district
By MICHAEL LIGHTSTONE City Hall Reporter
Wed, May 11 - 7:26 AM
Public hearings on two major developments proposed for downtown Halifax attracted a sizable gathering inside the council chamber at city hall Tuesday night.

Supporters and opponents of the planned mixed-use projects, not far from each other on Barrington Street, were at the hearings to let regional council know they are concerned about the future of the central business district.

But they hold opposite views on what the neighbourhood should look like. In the end, council approved both proposed highrise developments.

Fans of the proposals said the projects would help revitalize the downtown. Detractors said the buildings would be out of scale for the district, which includes a fledgling heritage conservation area that has registered heritage structures.

Towers proposed for sites that house the Roy Building and the Discovery Centre were grandfathered under a municipal planning strategy. So both development proposals were considered through an application process that predates provisions in HRM by Design.

Each project is taller than the 21 metres allowed under the new rules for development. Halifax Regional Municipality’s heritage advisory committee gave the Discovery Centre plan its blessing, but it wasn’t fond of the Roy Building’s design.

An advisory committee report to council said plans for the Roy structure don’t comply with city hall’s policy on adjacent buildings. A staff report on the building, though, recommended the development proceed.

As in previous disputes over the planning of towers downtown, the height of the proposed projects and corresponding wind and shadow matters were issues raised during Tuesday’s hearings.

One councillor noted that not only were the arguments familiar, so were the people putting them forward.

Business operators almost always support any new projects, while heritage advocates and others usually condemn major developments downtown and often criticize council and city staff for considering them in the first place.

With respect to the Roy Building, developer Louis Resnick’s sales pitch said his $40-million project would be "spectacular in function and form." The current low-rise building will be demolished soon, he told council.

Other supporters, including Coun. Dawn Sloane (Halifax Downtown), said the proposed development would give the downtown core a much-needed shot in the arm. Opponents, however, chastised council for putting its faith in projects that proponents religiously claim is the next big thing to propel the area forward.

Council heard that the development agreement for the Roy Building project says construction must start within three years.

Project foes suggested the municipal process governing the proposal might be illegal, but city hall’s top lawyer said that was not the case.

Most councillors voted in support of Resnick’s planned Roy Building development. Council voted in favour of developer Frank Medjuck’s Discovery Centre proposal, too.

During the public hearings, there were references to what kind of legacy Halifax council will leave behind. Veteran councillor Bob Harvey (Lower Sackville), who backed both developments, told his colleagues it was "an important night" for this council and the municipality.

"There’s no point having a downtown with heritage buildings that are empty from the ground up," he said.

Coun. Jackie Barkhouse (Woodside-Eastern Passage) wasn’t buying the supporters’ view that highrise projects help make for a more vibrant downtown. She opposed both developments.

"What constitutes vibrancy?" she asked.

( mlightstone@herald.ca)

As for what constitues vibrancy.....id have to say people help.

[Wishblade]

As for what constitues vibrancy.....id have to say people help.

lol yeah no kidding. Does she even realize that people live and work in highrises and that they arent just giant empty spires of concrete and glass? sheesh...

[worldlyhaligonian]

lol yeah no kidding. Does she even realize that people live and work in highrises and that they arent just giant empty spires of concrete and glass? sheesh...

And think of the children! (It never gets old.)

[halifaxboyns]

I just couldn't resist...
The children... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh2sWSVRrmo)

[worldlyhaligonian]

Exactly! :cheers:

[Jonovision]

http://inlinethumb51.webshots.com/47858/2557762520096709958S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2557762520096709958RbkBYe)

http://inlinethumb49.webshots.com/45872/2813303180096709958S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2813303180096709958YxpAJP)

[SekishikiMeikaiHa]

Not an update. Just a shot taken from the building:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5240/7045501247_1a0a1e5e7a_b.jpg

[RyeJay]

:haha: My heart just sank! I thought it was a development update. I'm very restless about the Roy Building starting because it means Barrington Street gets another tower!

Thanks for the pic :tup:

[someone123]

I don't think they plan to start on the Roy Building until after Barrington Espace is complete.

Not sure what the Roy Building's approval status is. It's been flying under the radar since the council votes about grandfathering pre-HbD proposals.

[kph06]

I don't think they plan to start on the Roy Building until after Barrington Espace is complete.

Not sure what the Roy Building's approval status is. It's been flying under the radar since the council votes about grandfathering pre-HbD proposals.

I think it has full approval, same with the Discovery Centre site. That made the Discovery Centre building an easy sale because it already went through the development hoops.

[fenwick16]

Yes, both development agreements were approved on May 10, 2011 - http://www.halifax.ca/Council/documents/c110510.pdf

[fenwick16]

There was a story in allnovascotia.com tonight that stated that Starfish Properties has acquired the Vogue Optical building adjacent to the Roy Building at 1645 Barrington Street - http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=1645+barrington+street,+halifax,+ns&hl=en&ll=44.646338,-63.573611&spn=0.00658,0.016512&sll=44.646314,-63.573584&layer=c&cbp=13,36.25,,0,-12.44&cbll=44.646259,-63.573578&gl=ca&hnear=1645+Barrington+St,+Halifax,+Nova+Scotia+B3J+3K4&t=h&z=17&panoid=yHBjYLhpaNGvqg0dK5Em_g. Starfish has made no comment on their plans for the building.

Is the Vogue Optical a registered heritage building?

[someone123]

I don't believe so, but the street is a heritage district and it would be pretty severely compromised if both the Roy and Vogue buildings were replaced. On the other hand, a Barrington Espace-style addition could be quite positive. The Discovery Centre development may actually enhance the appearance of the bottom floors (the planning document called for new copper detailing and awnings).

[Drybrain]

The two little buildings that front Sackville are also to be knocked down for the project, and they're right behind Vogue. Hopefully Starfish aren't thinking they can just sneak one in more and no one will notice.

I'm really hoping against hope that somehow Starfish pulls something great out of this: an excellent tower with a Barrington facade that actually retains much of the Roy's materials. I think the odds of that are low, but it's not impossible.

Either way, I'd LOVE for them to finally reveal some details as to what they actually plan to do. One good element of the heritage-conservation district that will avert this uncertainty in future is that a property owner must provide a detailed plan as to what they want to do with the site before they can get a demolition permit. (I think it's crazy that that isn't required in any location--demolition on spec is what gave us and a lot of other cities a downtown full of parking lots in the first place. Oh well.)

[coolmillion]

Sometimes I feel as though Starfish Properties is holding Barrington Street hostage. Work is progressing so slowly on Espace and the ground floor of the Roy building has been empty for... many years... I've lost track!

[Drybrain]

Sometimes I feel as though Starfish Properties is holding Barrington Street hostage. Work is progressing so slowly on Espace and the ground floor of the Roy building has been empty for... many years... I've lost track!

Yeah. But even though I'm VERY much on record as being totally against the Roy demolition, Starfish has actually done some excellent work on the street as well—Espace, Brander Morris Building (Attica), Nova Scotia Furnishings Building, and the GM Smith building. I'd like to think Espace is progressing slowly 'cause they're taking time to do it right.

I'm torn on them—they could be a lot more transparent, and the Roy project gets my hackles up since it's such a massive loss to the street, but if any developer in town seems likely to do something great in its place (or actually refurbish heritage elements), it's them. So I'm pessimistic and optimistic all at the same time.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Yeah, we've become used to developments being so fast, but they had to managed the facad and interior. Its far to slow regardless of this though. I think Starfish will continue to fix up the street long term.

[someone123]

It is too bad that the transition along Barrington is so slow and painful, but I think it will be a much better street in a couple of years. Without the painful renos nothing would have fundamentally changed and the street would have continued to slowly decline.

We'll have to wait and see what happens when these buildings open. I think the increase in the amount of modern, usable space will make a huge difference in terms of supporting a viable retail area. You can't really have a pedestrian-oriented shopping district that is only 1/3 usable storefronts.

[Drybrain]

Related to the Roy site and Vogue optical building, this story (http://www.thechronicleherald.ca/business/654369-developer-mum-about-barrington-buy) in the Herald is typically uninformative. Like reading tea leaves.

But it sounds like the reporter tried to get Reznick to reveal details, and Reznick sounds testy and unforthcoming. It's kind of funny, actually.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Looking at the aerial view: http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=rf709b9q1zn4&lvl=19.25&dir=359.63&sty=b&form=LMLTCC it looks like the only logical answer is a big project that involves the entire space.

Quoting from the article: “The building is located within the heritage district. We are undertaking a large redevelopment surrounding the building and will make every effort to improve (both) the sites, the buildings, and to improve the design, while respecting all the heritage aspects and the site location.”

While vague, it does indicate that the heritage aspects are being kept in mind, but again it is vague, so who knows?

It looks to me like there is no question that the Roy Building will be demolished, unfortunately, but there is still a broad scope of where it could go from there.

Chuckling at another quote from the article (likely made while keeping the Morse's sign in mind): “Our first task was to remove the unsightly, large sign banner. Didn’t anybody notice?” :haha:

[scooby074]

Chuckling at another quote from the article (likely made while keeping the Morse's sign in mind): “Our first task was to remove the unsightly, large sign banner. Didn’t anybody notice?” :haha:

I saw that. Didnt find it that funny. Speaks volumes as to his attitude.

[OldDartmouthMark]

I saw that. Didnt find it that funny. Speaks volumes as to his attitude.

Not laughing with him, laughing at him...

[Drybrain]

Not laughing with him, laughing at him...

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Just imagining the terse telephone interaction between him and the reporter. (Who, incidentally, wrote in January that Danny Chedrawe's Drum condo was "reminiscent of Toronto's flatiron building." So perhaps some laughs should be directed at both.)

[someone123]

Keep in mind that Halifax is also the sort of city where an article like this can be a call-to-arms for the STV types to get out their pitchforks. The lack of open dialogue isn't only the fault of developers.

It will be interesting to see what happens because I don't think it would be possible to extend the approved Roy heights to the Vogue building under HbD.

[RyeJay]

Keep in mind that Halifax is also the sort of city where an article like this can be a call-to-arms for the STV types to get out their pitchforks. The lack of open dialogue isn't only the fault of developers.

It will be interesting to see what happens because I don't think it would be possible to extend the approved Roy heights to the Vogue building under HbD.

I would still like for the developer to try!

A smart move would be to re-use the facades. That would result in fewer pitchforks ;)

[Duff]

The AllNS is reporting that the last retail store in the Roy Building, Props Floral Design, is moving to the Hydrostone Market in April. They will take over the space that Henhouse is leaving.

[ILoveHalifax]

The AllNS is reporting that the last retail store in the Roy Building, Props Floral Design, is moving to the Hydrostone Market in April. They will take over the space that Henhouse is leaving.

GREAT - maybe we can get it knocked down now.

[Drybrain]

Here's a neat development in Edmonton that has some relevance to the Roy. A developer has rebuilt a 1903 hotel (http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2013/04/23/2o13-o4-19-the-rebirth-of-the-alberta-hotel-bar/), which was torn down in the 80s to make way for an office building.

For whatever reason, large parts of the old facade were warehoused after demolition, so the developer was able to rebuild it on a vacant sitea block away (http://www.dubarchitects.ca/project.php).

If these guys could do this with partially preserved materials that have been in storage for 30 years, Starfish should be able to do at least as well with materials they'll be taking apart and handling themselves. (Makes me wish the bricks and stone from the New Customs House were sitting around in a warehouse somewhere.)

[OldDartmouthMark]

Here's a neat development in Edmonton that has some relevance to the Roy. A developer has rebuilt a 1903 hotel (http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2013/04/23/2o13-o4-19-the-rebirth-of-the-alberta-hotel-bar/), which was torn down in the 80s to make way for an office building.

For whatever reason, large parts of the old facade were warehoused after demolition, so the developer was able to rebuild it on a vacant sitea block away (http://www.dubarchitects.ca/project.php).

If these guys could do this with partially preserved materials that have been in storage for 30 years, Starfish should be able to do at least as well with materials they'll be taking apart and handling themselves. (Makes me wish the bricks and stone from the New Customs House were sitting around in a warehouse somewhere.)

Now that is a cool project! I'd love to know the thought process behind storing the old pieces all these years, as I'm sure there was cost associated with it. It's great to see a project that combines old and new so effectively. Gives me hope that we could potentially see something similar around here... someday.

Thanks for posting this! :)

[Drybrain]

Now that is a cool project! I'd love to know the thought process behind storing the old pieces all these years, as I'm sure there was cost associated with it. It's great to see a project that combines old and new so effectively. Gives me hope that we could potentially see something similar around here... someday.

Thanks for posting this! :)

It's a weird thing—when I lived in Alberta, I remember hearing about a number of demolitions that involved disassembling and inventorying the facades for storage (like, numbering each brick) with no long-term plan. Maybe there are a lot of old facades all crated up in some warehouse in Red Deer or something.

[OldDartmouthMark]

It's a weird thing—when I lived in Alberta, I remember hearing about a number of demolitions that involved disassembling and inventorying the facades for storage (like, numbering each brick) with no long-term plan. Maybe there are a lot of old facades all crated up in some warehouse in Red Deer or something.

I just did a quick search for more info on this intriguing project and came upon some old photos on this page, about three quarters down:

http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=1478

This was part of the development agreement:
"The Alberta Hotel, was dmolished when Canada Place went up. The developers, Trizec Hahn, posted a multi-milion dollar bond to pay for the dismantling of the historic Alberta Hotel, and its subsequent reconstruction. The rebuilding of this hotel was a long stalled portion of the Development Agreement (leagl stuff) for Canada Place. Only now has a suitable partner been found for the project, which was always intended to go ahead."

Looks like the pieces were stored outside:
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i304/Coltrain78/P1150062.jpg

More info:
http://zkahlina.ca/eng/2011/11/18/alberta-hotel-reborn/

[someone123]

The Granville Mall lions from the custom house in Halifax were apparently at one point sitting in a back yard in Timberlea.

I think more effort should go into saving and "reshuffling" heritage buildings. If you think about it, the cost of these projects is not very large compared to the cost of new developments. It could easily be offset by density bonuses.

[someone123]

There was an article in AllNS tonight speculating that Starfish is preparing to demolish the Roy Building, and that maybe now the Vogue building on the corner will be included as well.

My feelings on this one are pretty mixed to say the least. It will be really terrible if Barrington Street ends up with an enormous hole for 4 or 5 years (or longer), and there's been little or no public reassurance about how things will proceed. Halifax also doesn't have all that many fully-preserved blocks of pre-war masonry structures like this. In a lot of other cities I have a feeling that the Roy Building and Vogue would be preserved.

If the Roy Building comes down, it will be part of an uninterrupted string of 4 blocks of parking lots.

[Empire]

The Granville Mall side of the Delta Barrington was dismantled and then reconstructed as part of the hotel. The Barrington side is a bit boring "modern at the time" but the reconstructed side is vintage Halifax and was worthy of saving. If the Granville Mall side looked like the Barrington side it would have been a great loss.

This side of the Delta was dismantled and then reconstructed:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ll=44.649338,-63.574496&spn=0.000008,0.003626&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=44.649376,-63.574324&panoid=4L3xUhHXIC6F37f6mfvwkA&cbp=12,296.05,,0,0

[Drybrain]

There was an article in AllNS tonight speculating that Starfish is preparing to demolish the Roy Building, and that maybe now the Vogue building on the corner will be included as well.

My feelings on this one are pretty mixed to say the least. It will be really terrible if Barrington Street ends up with an enormous hole for 4 or 5 years (or longer), and there's been little or no public reassurance about how things will proceed. Halifax also doesn't have all that many fully-preserved blocks of pre-war masonry structures like this. In a lot of other cities I have a feeling that the Roy Building and Vogue would be preserved.

If the Roy Building comes down, it will be part of an uninterrupted string of 4 blocks of parking lots.

It'll be an enormous scar on the street, that's for sure. I hope if they're ready to demolish they're also ready to rebuild, quickly. Navigating this, and the Discovery Centre, and the down-the-road Green Lantern reno (which is apparently to involve adding a couple of storeys) will be a very tricky time for Barrington. Depending how well the projects are executed, the street could come out the other much better--or worse.

I do find it a bit astonishing that Starfish has been granted a demolition permit with nothing but this one rendering and no real sense of what the facade reconstruction will involve, technically speaking. The contemporary tower portion feels a bit featureless as well. Or have I just missed some more detailed renderings?

Based on Starfish's other quality work on the street, I'm very cautiously optimistic. But a demolition of this scale is just...hard to get excited until I have a better sense what it will lend up like. (And how quickly we get there.)

EDIT: Also, if the Vogue building isn't part of the land parcel for which the agreement was issued, how can they take it down too?

[someone123]

EDIT: Also, if the Vogue building isn't part of the land parcel for which the agreement was issued, how can they take it down too?

The article simply stated that they're expected to ask for an amendment to include the Vogue property in the development. This introduces the possibility of added delays to the development, particularly if the amendment can be appealed to the NSUARB (I'm not sure how it works since this is a grandfathered DA that doesn't conform to HbD).

I'm cautiously optimistic too, but as far back as 2006 or 2007 many people believed that a bunch of these projects were imminent and that Barrington would "return to normal" after a couple of hard years of construction. Of course, a big part of the problem is that there was so little investment from about 1991-2005 that practically every building needed renos by that point. HRM has also made things much worse by promising and then delaying programs like the Barrington Street heritage district and streetscaping.

It's hard to overstate how much of the malaise along Barrington is a result of government meddling and mismanagement. There has been a tendency to explain Barrington Street as part of the narrative of the suburban flight of retail and so on but that has stopped in most North American cities. Along Barrington, scars like the George Street lot exist because the city purchased the lot in the early 90's, sat on it, then swapped it to the province. The city also paid to prop up the NFB facade, which in retrospect wasn't worth it considering the fact that it's been there for 20+ years. They should have either made something happen with that lot in the mid-90's or torn down the facade.

Anyway, this isn't Starfish's fault, and they do have a good overall track record downtown. I hope the Roy Building turns out well too.

[fenwick16]

There was an article in AllNS tonight speculating that Starfish is preparing to demolish the Roy Building, and that maybe now the Vogue building on the corner will be included as well.

My feelings on this one are pretty mixed to say the least. It will be really terrible if Barrington Street ends up with an enormous hole for 4 or 5 years (or longer), and there's been little or no public reassurance about how things will proceed. Halifax also doesn't have all that many fully-preserved blocks of pre-war masonry structures like this. In a lot of other cities I have a feeling that the Roy Building and Vogue would be preserved.

If the Roy Building comes down, it will be part of an uninterrupted string of 4 blocks of parking lots.

I feel that Starfish could preserve the facade of the first two floors of the Roy Building and first 3 floors of the Vogue building; these appear to be the original floors. This Google Streetview - http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=1645+barrington+street,+halifax&ll=44.646346,-63.573622&spn=0.006351,0.016512&sll=44.646314,-63.573584&layer=c&cbp=13,23.01,,0,-8.42&cbll=44.646259,-63.573578&gl=ca&hnear=1645+Barrington+St,+Halifax,+Nova+Scotia+B3J+3K4&t=m&z=17&panoid=yHBjYLhpaNGvqg0dK5Em_g - shows that the upper four added floors of the Roy Building are not a practical floor_to_ceiling height in a modern building and are not really worth preserving, in my opinion.

I don't think that seeking an amendment to the Vogue building heights is necessary in order for Starfish to obtain a big advantage by incorporating the Vogue building into the proposal. Owning the Vogue building eliminates an interior lot line, which will allow significantly larger floor plates without any additional height amendment. The proposal can be stepped back over a rebuilt Vogue building at current height limits for that site.

I also have some apprehension considering the speed at which the Espace was built. However, this is a much larger development and it will involve a much larger budget and number of tradesmen. It will be to Starfish's advantage to finish it quickly so that they have money to cover financing costs.

It would certainly be good for the downtown to have this project as residential units, as the allnovascotia.com story seemed to indicate it would be.

[ILoveHalifax]

Very interesting.
So does anybody know if they have to build similar to what they proposed in the beginning or can they start from scratch with an exciting new design. I so dislike the images with a partial restoration. It looks so patchy.

[Drybrain]

Very interesting.
So does anybody know if they have to build similar to what they proposed in the beginning or can they start from scratch with an exciting new design. I so dislike the images with a partial restoration. It looks so patchy.

I'm pretty sure this DA (https://www.halifax.ca/Council/agendasc/documents/110412ca1117iv.pdf) is still what's in play. Page 25 breaks down the street-level facade on Barrington, which is to use salvaged stone "whenever possible" and promises all other materials will be "similar." Pretty wide open for interpretation in terms of quality, but like I said above, Starfish has done some godo stuff, so hopefully they don't cheap out with some ersatz-looking knockoffs. (There are actually companies who kiln old-fashioned bricks for just this sort of reconstruction.) I hope they use salvaged stone to reconstruct the doorframe at least There's no way to approximate the appearance of that stuff.

[RyeJay]

It would certainly be good for the downtown to have this project as residential units, as the allnovascotia.com story seemed to indicate it would be.

Preferably rental.

[someone123]

I feel that Starfish could preserve the facade of the first two floors of the Roy Building and first 3 floors of the Vogue building; these appear to be the original floors.

I don't think that's in the cards but it would be a nice compromise. The bottom few floors are the most important in terms of detailing; a cheap ground floor is really noticeable, but it can be hard to tell well-done pre-cast from stone on upper floors.

If the older part of the downtown around Barrington does get a half dozen or so new apartment buildings and condos it will make a dramatic difference to the local population, demand for shops, street life, desirability of downtown offices, etc. I think the lack of a strong base of local residents around Barrington is one of the factors that has caused it to decline relative to Spring Garden Road. It's hard to build a vibrant commercial area on the 9-5 crowd, and attracting suburbanites to shop is a chicken-and-egg problem.

[eastcoastal]

I feel that Starfish could preserve the facade of the first two floors of the Roy Building and first 3 floors of the Vogue building; these appear to be the original floors. ...

I don't think they're planning on preserving facades.

[Drybrain]

I don't think they're planning on preserving facades.

No, they're not--they'll recreate with "similar" materials and hopefully some of the better salvaged material.

Thing is, the Roy is no great beauty. The Green Lantern is kinda similar, but it's far superior architecturally. The Roy's value comes not so much from the architecture as from the weird layering to the building. It's been added to twice, I think, and you can see, especially on the rear side, how the different additions have been done in a patchwork fashion. It's got an anthropological value. You can excavate its history just by looking at it.

Plus, it's just a huge building that accommodated a lot of small operators for a long time. What it lacks in grace it makes up for in massing.

Anyway, if they can incorporate salvaged materials from the doorframe into a the new structure, and tie that into a uniform row of matching storefronts, I'll be happy. Normally I wouldn't be like "let's make something faux-historic" but this is a special case, and if it's done to a very high standard (i.e, genuinely looks like a reconstructed older building) I'll be fine if the upper floors are just brick and concrete, so long as it's good, matching brick. That's all they are now anyway.

[ILoveHalifax]

I would like to see them start from scratch with something new, maybe something to compliment the Nova Center up the hill.
I think preservation should be to preserve what was good from our past and the Roy is not good.

[ILoveHalifax]

I just skimmed thru some Toronto projects. Really like the tower at St Lawrence Center, very colorful. Sure would add a new dimension to Barrington.

[Nifta]

Barrington's clearly the 'Heritage District'. Whilst there's little in the way of legislation to force developers to give things a Heritage feel, it'd be sad to lose it. I'd like Spring Garden to have an ultra-modern feel, but I'd like the contrast with Barrington to be there.

[fenwick16]

I just skimmed thru some Toronto projects. Really like the tower at St Lawrence Center, very colorful. Sure would add a new dimension to Barrington.

Which one are you thinking of? This one maybe? It is a decent design, especially if parts of the Roy Building facade and Vogue Optical building facade could be incorporated into it.

(source: http://www.dcnonl.com/article/id55196 )
http://www.dcnonl.com/images/archivesid/55196/130.jpg

[Drybrain]

Which one are you thinking of? This one maybe? It is a decent design, especially if parts of the Roy Building facade and Vogue Optical building facade could be incorporated into it.

(source: http://www.dcnonl.com/article/id55196 )
http://www.dcnonl.com/images/archivesid/55196/130.jpg

I don't actually like that tower too much. It looks worse in person, kinda busy and stubby. I think the brick base is so it'll blend in with the Flatiron across the street.

If anyone wants to get a sense of the good and bad in Toronto architecture, check out the Pug Awards (http://www.pugawards.com/pug/2013-nominees). Funnily, the last few years, the most striking and beautiful buildings tend to be the institutional and government structures (and, ahem, the heritage refurbishments) while the condos tend to be the insipid and bland ones. (i.e., one glass box after another.)

The Daniels Spectrum is on there, one of the standouts from the rebuild of Regent Park. I'd love to see something akin to that with the redesigned Gottingen Terrace (or, for that matter, a rebuilt Uniacke Square).

[ILoveHalifax]

Sorry guys can't seem to copy it here but on item 4 under Toronto 100-199 page 2 the multi color tower. Sure would be a nice contrast to all the heritage and a fun addition to the street.

[ILoveHalifax]

http://www.cicadadesign.ca/portfolio/lawrence.html

[ILoveHalifax]

this is very interesting

[fenwick16]

http://www.cicadadesign.ca/portfolio/lawrence.html

Hello ILoveHalifax. I quoted your post to check your format. I think that you intended this:


(source: http://www.cicadadesign.ca/portfolio/lawrence.html)

http://www.cicadadesign.ca/images/portfolio/lawrence_01.jpg

[ILoveHalifax]

Hello ILoveHalifax. I quoted your post to check your format. I think that you intended this:

Thank you Fenwick.
I'd love to see someting like this rather than the Roy. A nice contrast to too much heritage.

[someone123]

There was an article in ANS tonight about a planned meeting between the mayor and Lou Reznick. There weren't any details really but so far it does seem like Michael Savage is genuinely more focused on the downtown than Peter Kelly was. The old council and mayor tried to give all parts of the city equal time and this effectively put the core at a huge disadvantage since it is much busier and much more complicated than other districts.

I wonder what they'll discuss. Hopefully the Roy Building and 1592 Barrington projects are staged appropriately. Barrington Espace went on for a very long time and the Roy Building is a major eyesore.

[eastcoastal]

...so far it does seem like Michael Savage is genuinely more focused on the downtown than Peter Kelly was. The old council and mayor tried to give all parts of the city equal time and this effectively put the core at a huge disadvantage since it is much busier and much more complicated than other districts....

Peter Kelly was fond of the old "community of communities" descriptor for HRM.

[Empire]

I hope the Roy Building moves forward soon and that the tower is completely redesigned. If the design holds it will be a permanent eyesore.