River District (East Fraserlands) | u/c

[deasine]

Jlousa brought this first to our attention on Feb 5, 2008 on the General Updates thread with a 3D rendering. I just thought it's about time to put this up as it's own seperate thread now. I live actually really close to the area and I can easily provide updates once construction begins.

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p155/jlousa/EFLand.jpg
Rendering of East Fraserlands ~ Source: jlousa



East Fraserlands - Introduction
http://www.vancouver.ca/commsvcs/currentplanning/current%5Fprojects/east%5Ffraserlands/east.jpg
Since 2003, the City of Vancouver has been engaged in a planning process to develop a new sustainable, complete community at East Fraserlands – 130 acres of industrial land south of Marine Way and east of Kerr Street to Boundary Road. The site was previously home to the Canadian White Pine Mill and remains zoned for industrial use.


The current plan approved for the site is for a predominantly residential community of approximately 12,800 people in a variety of housing types with a commercial centre in the form of a 'High Street'. The new community would also include parks, a community centre, schools, childcare facilities, a riverfront walk, and other public amenities. The new community would be built out over a period of about 25 years. To view the map of the area, click here (http://www.vancouver.ca/commsvcs/currentplanning/current%5Fprojects/east%5Ffraserlands/east_fraserlands_keymap.gif).Source: City of Vancouver




East Fraserlands - Phase One Rezoning
The City received a rezoning application for phase one of East Fraserlands from the developer ParkLane Homes in February 2007. Proposed in the first phase of development are a variety of housing types, a neighbourhood retail district, a community centre, parks, cycling and pedestrian ways, two day care facilities, a 30,000 square foot community centre, enhancements to the Fraser River foreshore, public art and transit service improvements. The boundaries of the proposed phase one area are shown on the map below.

http://www.vancouver.ca/commsvcs/currentplanning/current%5Fprojects/east%5Ffraserlands/Phase%201%20AD%20map_final.jpg

Source: City of Vancouver

Overview/Update

After an extensive planning and consultation period, the East Fraserlands project is moving forward through the City of Vancouver's planning and approval process. Below is an overview of this process with updates on the progress of this exciting new waterfront community. Please check back regularly for future updates.
Note: For further information on the City of Vancouver's development and approval processes, please visit www.vancouver.ca (http://www.vancouver.ca/).

Step 1: Policy Statement - PROCESS COMPLETED
A policy statement describes the general planning principles that will guide the future development of a site. This document addresses questions of land use, transportation, building form, community facilities and provides broad direction for how those questions will be answered in subsequent planning stages. By representing both public and private interests, a policy statement provides the general framework for further planning and decision-making.
Update: December 2004
The East Fraserlands Policy Statement was unanimously adopted by the Vancouver City Council in December of 2004 following a series of City of Vancouver staff workshops, public open houses and a community workshop.
Step 2: Official Development Plan - PROCESS COMPLETED
An Official Development Plan (ODP) provides a more detailed level of planning by expanding on the ideas established by the Policy Statement. The ODP will present the necessary framework for designing zoning, housing, amenity, servicing, shoreline policies, etc.
Update: February 2006
To initiate the ODP process, ParkLane, WesGroup and the City of Vancouver organized a comprehensive eight day Design Charette in April of 2005 to create a world class plan for the East Fraserlands community. Click here (http://www.parklane.com/eastfraserlands/designcharette.asp) to get more information on this innovative public process, one of the first of its kind in Canada. From the work completed at this charette and subsequent meetings with city staff and the community, ParkLane/WesGroup completed their ODP document and submitted the first draft in January of 2006.
Update: November 2006
On November 14th, 2006, the East Fraserlands (EFL) ODP received unanimous approval by Vancouver City Council. Speaker after speaker from the local community came forward to give their full support of the ODP document and the work completed to date on this new development. The ODP will present the necessary framework for designing, zoning, housing, amenity, servicing, shoreline policies, etc.

Step 3: Rezoning - IN PROGRESS
Zoning guidelines are established by the City of Vancouver and are intended to encourage proper land use and building compatibility. Each area of land in the city has been designated/zoned for a particular use such as industrial, commercial, residential etc. When a landowner wishes to change the zoning of his/her land, he/she must apply to the City of Vancouver for rezoning. Once submitted, this application will be processed through the Director of Planning, the City's Urban Design Panel and City Council. The time required to process a rezoning can vary depending on the complexity of the project.
Update: February 2007
ParkLane/Wesgroup submitted the rezoning application for the first phase of East Fraserlands on February 28th 2007. Proposed in the first phase of development are a variety of housing types, a neighbourhood retail district, parks, cycling and pedestrian ways, daycare facilities, a 30,000 sq. ft. community centre, enhancements to the Fraser River foreshore, public art and transit service improvements.
Click Here (http://www.parklane.com/eastfraserlands/_pdf/Phase_1_master.pdf) for the 1st phase rezoning map

Update: April 2007
On April 24th, 2007 East Fraserlands Master Plan wins Canadian Institute of Planners Award for Excellence. Click here (http://www.parklane.com/eastfraserlands/newspress.asp) to read our Press Release for more information.
On Wednesday, April the 25th 2007 the Vancouver Urban Design Panel (UDP) reviewed the EFL’s first phase rezoning submission at a marathon session. The rezoning received unanimous approval from the UDP, another remarkable accomplishment for East Fraserlands.

Update: May 2007
The City of Vancouver hosted Open Houses on May 27th and May 30th, 2007 for the community to view and comment on the rezoning application for phase one of the development.

Update: June 2007
East Fraserlands has won the BC Smart Growth Award for best development proposal on June the 1st 2007 presented by the Smart Growth BC Foundation.
Click here (http://www.parklane.com/eastfraserlands/newsitem.asp?id=189&y=2007) to view the press release on this award.

Step 4: Development Permit
A development permit builds upon a rezoning by-law by providing greater detail for a particular building site. The applicant to use or develop property in accordance with the City's zoning regulations

Step 5: Building Permit
A building permit allows the applicant to construct the development proposal.
Source: Park Lane Homes


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Display Boards compressed to size ~ Source: City of Vancouver


It's Current Condition:
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Pictures by Me

This development can be compared to the Olympic Village. Sure it's not in the prime area of Vancouver nor are the buildings as tall, but this development is huge. I can tell you from living in Fraserview that the area is amazing and I didn't realize how large this thing is. Great to see there is some mix retail and office space. The South Marine Drive area is a little too quiet right now, but this would help make things better.

On the transportation side, TransLink has said they would lengthen a few routes to serve this area. Marine Drive is underserved by transit and this development would definetly help link the community with the rest of the region.

- #29 Eliott/29 Ave STN [my route!!!] will go down Eliott then on Marine Way, then to the transit focal point at "the village"
- #26 Joyce/29 Ave STN will change, go down to Kerr then on Marine Way, then to the transit focal point at "the village"
- #116 Edmonds STN/Metrotown STN would reach to the transit focal point at "the village"
- According to the City of Vancouver, piers and dock structures could be used for "future ferry services"

I think the #20 route should reach here too, but I guess TransLink has said no to that. Please note this deata is from 2006 so it might change.

[Jared]

I hope they leave enough space to have two sets of tracks for any future LRT/Streetcar/DMU/Interurban that will eventually go along those tracks....

[mr.x]

^ they have, look closely for the median that runs through the development.

[deasine]

Images/Information Updated

[twoNeurons]

I wonder if it would be good location to be an early buyer.

[vanlaw]

It will be a great project,and will finally add some services to the phase that was done in the 90's, but without dedicated rapid tranist, you are basically car bound in the middle of nowhere.

[twoNeurons]

It will be a great project,and will finally add some services to the phase that was done in the 90's, but without dedicated rapid tranist, you are basically car bound in the middle of nowhere.

That's true. I thought of that as well. It would be nice if there was a commitment to a DMU Service. It has great potential, excellent road access, waterfront access, etc.

Unfortunately, it's sorely lacking in transit.

[officedweller]

The first rendering just screams out - transit oriented development - uhh, but no transit....

[jlousa]

Expect to see a streetcar like line from 22nd station (maybe New West) till at least the Marine drive station (hopefully all the way back up Arbutus connecting also to the M-Line extension), before this project is complete. Remember though this project has a ~10yr buildout. Those tracks have been envisioned to be part of the development since the start. The problem is you can't justify building the line until the people are already there.
I think that line will even be profitable, it'll connect in theory the Expo/Millenium and Canada Line, serve quite a few dense residential areas as well a huge shopping zone (Marine+Byrne+Kerrisdale) and large employment centres will all the industry in that area.

[twoNeurons]

That would be nice, jlousa. You looking at investing in this area?

[LeftCoaster]

I've heard about this street car line, and Jlousa you seem to have some more info on it than I have seen. Is it going to be at grade but seperated from traffic on the existing RR tracks for portions... like a streetcar/LRT hybrid?

[jlousa]

The sketches I've seen are only from 22nd station to Cambie and they are at grade, there isn't an abudance of traffic that would cross over the line in that area, so it should be fine not to mention cheap to implement, according to the sketches traffic is controlled with regular train crossing arms, some of the road crossings would be shut down completely.
I reckon we will see alot more info as EFL progresses, phase one is set for 2009 so it won't be much longer.

Not looking to invest anymore in the area. ;)

[twoNeurons]

I'd love to see some information on it, if it was out there. It'd certainly be tricky to get it to cross Marine Way near 22nd station. I'd assume that it would cross at Trapp and continue along 7th.

Seems it would be simple to run it West, however.

Running to New West Station seems to make more sense... as then you'd get the catchment on the Waterfront, which is separated by railway.

edit: thanks jlousa. It will be interesting to see this one develop.

[deasine]

I wonder if it would be good location to be an early buyer.

It's a perfect place for an early buyer/first buyer, albeit not the most convenient for transit. In the long run, like jlousa said, there would probably be some train service to Marine Drive Station/New Westminster. Having said that, there are many buses that serve the area. It's an approx. 15 min ride to 29th Avenue Station using the #26 and #29, which run every 15 min. during the day. So you can see a bus from the "village" every 7 min to 29th Avenue Station. There's also the #26 to Joyce too, but it takes slightly longer than #29/#26 to 29th Avenue Station. 116 to Metrotown/Edmonds station currently runs every half an hour, but I can see that upgraded to 15 as more people live in the area. The Marine Drive Crossing, full of big box stores such as Canadian Tire, Price Smart Foods, London Drugs, Staples, Walmart, etc. is a 10 min. drive/15 min bus ride on the #116. Up Kerr street is Champlain plaza with Extra Foods, Kins Farm, BMO, Starbucks, etc., 7 min. bus ride, 20 min. walk.

I'm pretty sure there will be at least a small community market in the area. Nesters? Capers? Perhaps...

If I can afford the area, I'll definetly buy a location there. Stay tuned for prices of condos/townhomes/apartments at http://www.parklane.com/eastfraserlands/

[SFUVancouver]

Thanks for starting this thread. I'm very interesting in this project and I'm happy that it is progressing.

[bils]

It's a perfect place for an early buyer/first buyer.....

.... If I can afford the area, I'll definetly buy a location there. Stay tuned for prices of condos/townhomes/apartments at http://www.parklane.com/eastfraserlands/

i agree this is a great location. the only drawback i would consider is bad air quality. ever driven on the knight street bridge and seen where all the exhaust from mitchell island goes? straight towards this area.

[deasine]

i agree this is a great location. the only drawback i would consider is bad air quality. ever driven on the knight street bridge and seen where all the exhaust from mitchell island goes? straight towards this area.

Actually it isn't bad. The only thing I notice is the "sea smell" from Fraser River. Then again, I don't live at South Marine Drive so I really don't know exactly.

[jlousa]

Deasine I have lots of work for you. :)
Lots of new info released today. So have at it.

http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20080722/documents/p6.pdf
http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20080722/documents/p7.pdf
http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20080722/documents/p7appa.pdf
http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20080722/documents/p7appb.pdf
http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20080722/documents/p7appc.pdf
http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20080722/documents/p7appd.pdf
http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20080722/documents/p7appe.pdf
http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20080722/documents/p7appf.pdf
http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20080722/documents/p7appg.pdf
http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20080722/documents/p7apph.pdf
http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20080722/documents/p7appi.pdf
http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20080722/documents/p7appj.pdf
http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20080722/documents/p7appk.pdf

Major warning though one of those files if over 300mb and will take a while to d/l if you aren't on a good network. The rest are all under 5mb.

[deasine]

yeah it's taking a little while... my safari usually isn't this slow -_-"

Thanks for the updates... =)

[jlousa]

As it currently stands the project calls for over 5Million sqft of development, everything will be build LEED Gold/Built Green, the tallest towers are now 25 storyies, 2 new bikeways included. Also the creation of a new view cone towards Mt Baker. ( I know that one will get some love on here).

I can burn a copy of the files onto a CD if someone wants them as I now most people don't want to d/l over 400mb of data just to look.
There's lots of great info in the files.

[city-dweller]

For the most part this project looks awesome. I last looked in on it when the charettes where taking place. Excellent planning of building form, mix-use zoning, LEED standards, etc... What concerns me as others have mentioned is the transit component. I see plenty of transit potential and yes, they are extending some of the existing (bus) routes and provisions for future 'rapid' transit. My issue is the amount of infrastructure for cars. I am just looking over the numbers so I will get back to you on parking spaces at grade and below. I am (maybe the only one) thinking this would be an opportunity to build minimal (free?) car dependent development. Don't want to sound too down on the project, but take the number of units for the entire development and apply a (eg 10%) transit ridership rate. The difference is a lot of more cars on the Vancouver streets. I believe with the housing market and gas prices so high there would be a market for a transit/bicycle/walk oriented neighborhood.

(forgive me for not having more project specific points/examples this time)

[deasine]

No that's perfectly understandable... this development is pretty isolated in vancouver and it's sort of in the middle of no-where... at least at the moment.

[city-dweller]

Okay, I have read through the entire ODP (much better than tv:) ) and updates posted on this thread to update my own post.
The EFL ODP has a lot of supportive language for lower car component:


2.2.14
A clear hierarchy of movement is to emphasize walking, cycling, transit, and goods movement, and to provide for reasonable vehicle access but is to discourage through traffic from shortcutting through neighbourhoods.

4.6
The access and movement network is to accommodate all modes of transportation, and to give priority to walking, cycling, transit, and goods movement, while providing reasonable vehicle access, with the aim of maximizing non-automobile trips as stated in the City of Vancouver Transportation Plan, adopted by Council in May 1997.

4.5.9
To avoid the need for large surface parking lots, parking is to be on the street, underground, or in small parking courts to the rear of street wall buildings.

5.1.7
Each re-zoning is to include the:
(a)
further design of the movement network to reflect the city’s transportation priorities which, in descending order of importance, are pedestrians, bicycles, transit, goods movement, and automobiles; and
(b)
developing and implementing a comprehensive transportation demand managementstrategy aimed at minimizing automobile trips from the development, and maximizing use of sustainable modes of transport such as walking, cycling, and use of transit through measures such as a travel plan, car sharing, community transit passes, way-finding signage, comfortable and safe bus stop design, and innovative parking solutions.


In summary, the ODP outlines a lower priority for resources, space, and access for cars. This would fit my idea of ‘building a minimal car dependent development’. The language sounds good. I then read jlousa’s updates. I found issue of how they will reconcile the ODP goals (above) with Section 7 of http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/ctyc...nts/p7appa.pdf parking spot requirements. 13,000+ new residents (all phases complete) and limited surface space for parking indicates expensive underground. If someone else who has read that section could indicate if this is less/same/more than usual city requirements.

[city-dweller]

Link doesn't appear to work. Use original posted link.

[SpongeG]

when is it going to start?

drove through marine way last night

[city-dweller]

Rezoning is currently underway. After that the development permit is needed and then the building permit.

[jlousa]

Construction of Phase one is set for 2009. So pretty soon, the zoning is taken care of as far as I know, they just changed the scope of it, phase 1 will be much larger and phase 2 smaller, the total hasn't changed. Could be interesting timing if we get the expected slowdown.

[city-dweller]

I have been interested to how the EFL development will affect traffic on Marine way. The number of access points for cars to turn off(on) Marine way could back up traffic. So, back to the ODP.
The good news:
EFL ODP 3.5.2 h: "such uses, and their parking lots, fronting on or accessed directly from Marine Way, are not permissible"

This refers to most commercial ventures. This good because everyone hates to get stuck behind someone who forgets to their signal on until the last minute.

The other news:
EFL ODP 3.5.2 i: "access to office and other non-retail stores from marine way is permissable"

Wouldn't this just mean more people turning off and on Marine Way during rush hour?

[twoNeurons]

Construction of Phase one is set for 2009. So pretty soon, the zoning is taken care of as far as I know, they just changed the scope of it, phase 1 will be much larger and phase 2 smaller, the total hasn't changed. Could be interesting timing if we get the expected slowdown.

I was thinking the same thing. I wonder if this would affect how quickly the neighborhood gets built out. Pretty hard to sell pre-sales in a declining market.

[deasine]

That could be a problem... but things are only a little slow now... who knows after a few months things could change dramatically (although I doubt it). But this is one of the few developments in the COV where it's much more affordable than compared to other developments. It's such a nice peaceful area too =)

[SpongeG]

I guess that what seems in the middle of nowhere shopping centre will make more sense now

[flight_from_kamakura]

re: the market slowdown. i'm not sure where these are going to start, but i had lunch with a realtor friend of mine today, and he seemed quite bullish on some of the cheaper suburban-style stuff like this and collingwood. apparently, there's still a lot of demand for the right places in the 300s.

that said, with all the uncertainty, i bet the developers sit on this for a couple years to work on some surer projects, and possibly to bring more people on board to spread the risk around a bit more if things don't appear set to improve/not decline in the medium term.

[jlousa]

I wouldn't count on the much more affordable aspect. ;)

[SpongeG]

i am sure a lot of people will jump at the chance to move out of abbotsford or langley if they can get something cheaper in vancouver - finally

[northwest2k]

I took a drive past this place this morning. They were building houses in the bottom right section next to Boundary Road. Don't know if they'll be using them as show rooms/realty office or if they'll even be staying on site.

[AgentWill]

I've been watching this project for some time with a serious personal interest in it. Now, with the slow down, will it go forward? Sure it will. The big question is how much will the places list for and what will the added quantity of homes do to values in the immediate region. As a buyer I'm hoping to see something attractive and in the 1000 sq.ft. three bedroom range and costing no more than the mid 3s. If not then it's a deal breaker to move my family out there. I bet a lot of people will be thinking the same thing.

[jlousa]

3br 1000sqft in Vancouver (even that location) you are looking at 500K and up. Sorry to break it to you. I'd be surprised if they offer a 2bd for mid 300's I'd wager that the 2bds will start at a very high 300K as is probably 399K for the ones on the 2nd floor facing the marine drive.

Take a look at the developments a couple of blocks west to get a ballpark figure and then add some $$$ on top for a newer product in a better development.

[deasine]

That's about right. Even the apartments north of the Fraserlands development: Brittany @ Champlain Square which has a much better location and is about a year old now is going for $499 000 right now.

[northwest2k]

2 bedroom cookie cutter condos in South Surrey are going for $399, 000. So yeah. Sorry bud you're out of luck

[WarrenC12]

You guys might be living in 2007, times have changed, developers are starting to unload inventory at huge discounts. The great real estate crash is upon us!

AW, I'd like something in the 1000sf range in the mid 400s downtown. My deal might be a bigger stretch than yours but I think both are coming. :cheers:

[LeftCoaster]

I dont think things will go quite that low Warren... but as a renter, here's to hoping!

Also 1000sf 3 bedroom? those are some damn tiny bedrooms!

[twoNeurons]

Oh Man... this is starting to sound like RealEstateTalks.

I started thinking... with Translink buying that patch of land in Newton, I wonder if they're planning DMU service in that area... or LRT.

It would be interesting if Translink buys up some of this land in East Fraserlands... perhaps an LRT stretching from Marpole to Coquitlam? Or to New West across the bridge and then to Surrey?

[AgentWill]

Not to make it sound like a RET thread (I know JLousa escaped there a very long time ago) fact is that prices are coming down and I don't think a 3bed for under 400k is so out of the question. You can get some townhomes (older) in Port Moody for that price now (difference in distance from downtown a negligible margin) when you could not a few months ago. You can get almost 900 Sq.ft. 2Bed+Dens in Cambie for under 400k now, as well. What's to say that in a year's time we won't have new fraserland 3 beds for somewhere under 400k?

My bet is that affordability will be a very big factor in the sales of these places and the building of this new community. No, we do not need granite and stainless steel. Just quality built, energy efficient homes in well planned urban settings with amenities close at hand... isn't that what they've been talking about in the various public meetings?

1000sf small for 3 beds? Nah. Not if it's efficiently laid out. Only need 1.5 baths. Bedrooms are for sleeping. How much space do you need? 3 10'x10' bedrooms (not including closets), Livingroom/Diningroom/kitchen all open at 30x15', 1.5 baths, closets, laundry, walls - 1000sf.

[deasine]

I'm positive it won't be under 400k.... and where on Cambie are u getting under 400k... even the Camplain development which is just north of the marine drive development is going for $499 000... and that's the price right now. The prices of the townhomes there haven't been falling very quickly.

[twoNeurons]

I'm positive it won't be under 400k.... and where on Cambie are u getting under 400k... even the Camplain development which is just north of the marine drive development is going for $499 000... and that's the price right now. The prices of the townhomes there haven't been falling very quickly.
they don't start to fall as quickly as they started to rise, typically... especially if predictions that we're on the top of the bell curve are true.

[AgentWill]

Doesn't have to be a townhouse.

[deasine]

they don't start to fall as quickly as they started to rise, typically... especially if predictions that we're on the top of the bell curve are true.

True.

Doesn't have to be a townhouse.

It's a townhouse development with apartments into it. The example I used was an apartment, which is 1107 sqft. Btw, I was wrong earlier, the apartments are actually 2 years old.

[phesto]

Parklane will be handling the residential portion of the project. They’re a very experienced developer, and acutely aware of current residential market trends.

If they plan to target a more price-sensitive market by reconfiguring units, that’s one thing, but they’re not going to suddenly discount their prices on pre-sales because the market is softening and they mispriced them. If that was their expectation, they will just put things on hold.

We could argue all day long about what market prices are, or what 'affordable' means, but at the end of the day, this is still new construction, in the City of Vancouver, in what should be a very attractive new community. This isn't lost on the developer, and with such a large project, expect appropriately priced units and patience to market them.

Also, 3 Bed 1.5 bath? Really? Are there any new projects out there where this layout has been a success?

[deasine]

A few pictures from Parklane Homes of the current community:
http://www.parklane.com/eastfraserlands/_images/large_photo_1.jpg

http://www.parklane.com/eastfraserlands/_images/large_photo_2.jpg

http://www.parklane.com/eastfraserlands/_images/large_photo_3.jpg

http://www.parklane.com/eastfraserlands/_images/large_photo_4.jpg

http://www.parklane.com/eastfraserlands/_images/large_photo_5.jpg

http://www.parklane.com/eastfraserlands/_images/large_photo_6.jpg

http://www.parklane.com/eastfraserlands/_images/large_photo_7.jpg

http://www.parklane.com/eastfraserlands/_images/large_photo_8.jpg

[raggedy13]

^Wow, that looks like a surprisingly scenic area. Thanks for the pics.

[AgentWill]

Regarding 1.5 baths and whether it's popular or not. Let me ask you: Why do you need two baths? You need a 4 or 5 piece bathroom with the toilet ideally separated from the bath by a door but that is extremely rare in Vancouver from what I've seen, and you need a powder room with a toilet and sink. How often do you have both showers/baths running at the same time? For some reason we, in much of North America, feel entitled to 2+ full baths and not only does this waste space it also wastes money. Getting rid of a seldom used bath would gain you back close to 20sq.ft. of living space and save several hundred dollars in materials and labour.

[TwoFace]

Regarding 1.5 baths and whether it's popular or not. Let me ask you: Why do you need two baths?

Your Guests or Family members shouldn’t have to use your personal ensuite to take a shower.
There are certain expectations when paying $400K plus, you think?.

[flight_from_kamakura]

hmm... i think the 3 bed, 1.5 bath comment was made more to illustrate that at 1000-1100 sqf, that's too many rooms.

thanks for posting those pics deasine, looks nice out there.

[Jacques]

Your Guests or Family members shouldn’t have to use your personal ensuite to take a shower.
There are certain expectations when paying $400K plus, you think?.
Wow how prude we have become, I guess you never shared one bathroom with 7 brothers and one sister, a dog and the entire farm animals or have ever used a outHouse?:haha: :haha: :D ( just a little humour thrown in the mix)

[AgentWill]

I can't believe I'm taking a little flack for suggesting a 1000sq.ft. 3 bed 1.5 bath. Here's a mockup I did of what one could look like. Sorry I can't post a PDF on this forum but here's a link to my idea fleshed out and with the floor plan below: http://agentwill.com/life/designing-my-own-space/

Sorry to have taken this off topic... It just seems to me that if they are going to build up the Fraserlands into this new "community" that they could do it better than a lot of what I see out there in Vancouver. I'd like to see them dump the expensive finishings as standard (though there's certainly a bigger profit margin from them) and get more people to be able to buy a home they will want to stay in and not just reside in for a few years till they can afford something more suitable.

[jlousa]

I don't have an issue with 3bds in 1000 sqft or with 1.5 bathrooms. The problem is people like me are in the minority. Selling something like that really limits your target group, as people are expecting more. Same reason why granite and stainless are selling even though no one needs it, people are just expecting it. Try to make a development with Ikea kitchens and carpet even though they could be 20-30K cheaper then an upscale unit you'd have a much harder time selling it.
Maybe the slowdown will change things a little, we'll have to wait and see. I don't think this development is where you'll see it though, I would wager you'll see the downgrading being in the suburbs first.

[Yume-sama]

I don't know, my condo is 1095 square feet (probably only about 1050 usable living space, though) and has 2 bedrooms, office, and 1.5 bathrooms. The office could EASILY be made in to a bedroom if it had to be. Link to the floorplan is below, but the best way would probably be to knock out the wall between the Den / "Flex" room, make a closet and voila! Honestly my parents house in Calgary was a 3 bedroom bungalow (only one large bathroom, though) and just a bit over 1000 square feet, we lived fine (didn't know any better...). People in the 50's were smart with their designs and use of space.

http://www.lhvancouver.com/pdf/lhermitage_handout_planD1.pdf

Anyways, I don't find myself short on space with 3 rooms, 1.5 bathrooms at under 1100 square feet.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3060/2777670392_de654d90ec_b.jpg
More here > http://www.flickr.com/photos/syume/

[twoNeurons]

Yeah... ensuites are a relatively new idea. We built a new house in the 90s and I don't remember it having an ensuite. Shared one bathroom for a large family later.

I AM a HUGE fan of Japanese two-part bathrooms, though. Separate the Bathroom from the toilet room. It makes far too much sense to be used here, though.

[WarrenC12]

Regarding 1.5 baths and whether it's popular or not. Let me ask you: Why do you need two baths? You need a 4 or 5 piece bathroom with the toilet ideally separated from the bath by a door but that is extremely rare in Vancouver from what I've seen, and you need a powder room with a toilet and sink. How often do you have both showers/baths running at the same time? For some reason we, in much of North America, feel entitled to 2+ full baths and not only does this waste space it also wastes money. Getting rid of a seldom used bath would gain you back close to 20sq.ft. of living space and save several hundred dollars in materials and labour.

I'm with you AW. I see so many 2BR/2Bathrm places downtown, where space is a premium. Even 1BR/1.5Bathrm.. ridiculous!

[WarrenC12]

I don't know, my condo is 1095 square feet (probably only about 1050 usable living space, though) and has 2 bedrooms, office, and 1.5 bathrooms. The office could EASILY be made in to a bedroom if it had to be. Link to the floorplan is below, but the best way would probably be to knock out the wall between the Den / "Flex" room, make a closet and voila! Honestly my parents house in Calgary was a 3 bedroom bungalow (only one large bathroom, though) and just a bit over 1000 square feet, we lived fine (didn't know any better...). People in the 50's were smart with their designs and use of space.
Anyways, I don't find myself short on space with 3 rooms, 1.5 bathrooms at under 1100 square feet.



I for one am pretty jealous of your setup Yume, that building looks like one of the best new ones downtown. Some day I hope to be down there. :notacrook:

Have you looked into knocking down that wall? It might be pretty tough in a strata environment, but maybe you could cut a doorway to make a walk-in closet.

[johnjimbc]

Hey Yume-sama,

You may recall I'm in your building as well, in the 06 tier (which at 2BR / 2BA plus a flex space and also a corner unit is perfect for us). It gives us a home office that can work a guest room with access to its own bath so that works.

But having considered the larger 08 tier way back when, we had thought about the layout. As such, I had considered an improvement similar to what you've described. You've probably considered this, but the other plus of making the flex space a closet from the den is that it would also allow you to remove and cover the current doorway to the flex space from the living room.

By doing that, you could then place your TV on - on attached it to - the resulting wall space.

That in my mind is a big plus so you wouldn't have to place the TV in front of a window or in a corner. And yet you'd still have all the closet space.

As you'd basically be cutting a doorway and covering another in your unit on interior, non load-bearing walls, I can't imagine any issue with the strata except to comply with the contractor rules in the by-laws.

Anyway, I'd love to see you or someone in that tier (or the 01 tier) do that. I do think it would be a great enhancement without too much cost.

[officedweller]

I can't believe I'm taking a little flack for suggesting a 1000sq.ft. 3 bed 1.5 bath. Here's a mockup I did of what one could look like. Sorry I can't post a PDF on this forum but here's a link to my idea fleshed out and with the floor plan below: http://agentwill.com/life/designing-my-own-space/

Looks like a Yaletown warehouse conversion with a deep floorplan - and where the bedrooms don't have exterior windows. Doubt the City would allow that in a new building, due to lack of daylight to the back of the suite.


... You've probably considered this, but the other plus of making the flex space a closet from the den is that it would also allow you to remove and cover the current doorway to the flex space from the living room.

...

As you'd basically be cutting a doorway and covering another in your unit on interior, non load-bearing walls, I can't imagine any issue with the strata except to comply with the contractor rules in the by-laws.


You'd run into zoning bylaw problems with that suggestion. The den, if it is an "enclosed balcony", which I think it probably is, may be considered "outdoor space" (equivalent to an exterior balcony) and as such, you probably cannot have the storage space opening onto it. Mind you, the strata council wouldn't know about those requirements so you may be able to get it approved but it would be non-conforming.

[johnjimbc]

Thanks for the information, Office Dweller.

I know this is off topic from this thread, but would you mind explaining these "enclosed balcony" concept a bit - why it exists, what it means?

For example, why is the square footage included in the interior sq footage if it is considered "outdoor space"?

And how functionally does that work that it is considered outdoor space yet in most cases I've seen around town the enclosed balconies are fully enclosed and have heating and/or a/c just like the rest of the unit?

It just seems like a designation created to allow developers to stay below some kind of ratio of interior / outdoor space. Yet for the owner, it doesn't seem to matter?

And does non-conforming use just apply to how the room is accessed? What if you wanted to add hardwood flooring or add lighting? That doesn't change anything structurally, yet they would still be physical changes.

I've always just been curious about that because Washington, DC, where I used to live doesn't have that type of designation. Area is either interior or exterior. There isn't a "gray" area definition like here in Vancouver.


Appreciate any insight you can provide. Thanks!

[SpongeG]

For example, why is the square footage included in the interior sq footage if it is considered "outdoor space"?


i believe this part has to do with your mortage - the bank needs the info when reviewing you for your mortage

[officedweller]

The enclosed balcony zoning bylaw provisions have evolved over the years - originally in the early 90s there were few restrictions on size, etc. but they were truly "enclosed balconies".

In some of the building along Pacific Blvd you will see a raised sill to enter the enclosed balcony and you will see a drain in the middle of the tiled floor. In my condo, built in the early 90s, there is fibreglass insulation in the wall separating my enclosed balcony from the living room (i.e. treated as outdoor space) and the sliding glass door is an indoor/outddor door. Generally, there is no heating in an enclosed balcony (at least in older units - don't know if the absence of heating is a requirement).

For zoning purposes, enclosed balconies are excluded from FSR provided that they meet certain requirements set out in the zoning bylaw (not sure of all of the requirements, so you would have to check with the City on those requirements). But despite that developers and real estate agents tout them as dens, studies and additional bedrooms. The City became upset about the enclosed balconies being touted as bedrooms so over the years and have reduced the maximum size of the enclosed balconies to the extent that many are only about 5 ft wide by maybe 8 or 10 ft long (i.e. unusable as a bedroom). The current zoning bylaw also requires a split between outdoor and indoor balcony space in a building (a certain ratio averaged over the whole building I think).

The requirements for an enclosed balcony include an "impermeable" floor. That means tile - not hardwood. One developer in Coal Harbour - for the Palladio - made the mistake of installing hardwood throughout their enclosed balconies and the City discovered that post-possession and since it did not meet the exemption requirement, the City forced the developer to purchase extra density from the heritage density bank to bring those enclosed balconies into FSR.

Nowadays, condo owners and the renovation industry is becoming more attuned to the issue and you see applications to the Development Permit Board to purchase additional density to remove an enclosed balcony wall and bring it into FSR.

If you do not get the proper permits, you may be opening yourself up to a lawsuit in future. Of course, properties are usually sold "as is"- but it is a possibility. One example was in the Iliad Building on Homer when the developer (as a resale) sold a unit from which the enclosed balcony was removed. The purchaser applied to the City for a building permit to renovate the space and was refused unless they reinstalled the enclosed balcony - that scuttled the purchaser's plans to renovate (or at least required them to purchase additional density). A lawsuit ensued.

Here's an example of a recent application to purchase FSR to remove walls of an enclosed balcony.

http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/dpboard/2008/PDF/1188%20Richards%20Street-505%20-%20DE411933.pdf

[jlousa]

Not sure if this is still exactly the case but in general bacolonies enclosed or otherwise may not excced 8% of sqftage. They are not counted in FSR calculations as well. As mentioned by officedweller if you read thru the COV variance board you'll see dozens and dozens of situtations involving problems and people buying density to resolve the issue, even then it's up to the city if they want to allow it.

[johnjimbc]

Wow! Thanks for the amazingly detailed answer. I understand it much better now. It still seems a bit convoluted, but also a great source of revenue for the city (of course). I'm surprised DC (and other cities) haven't figured out a way to do the same for just that reason ; ).

Thanks again for explaining so thoroughly.

[jlousa]

A little update on this project, looks like they will have ~480 affordable housing units in the new expanded Phase 1 project including some 3 and even 4 bedroom units. There will also be a beach, not sure how good it'll be but it sounds nice. They are also adding height to the ground in sections to remove parts from the flood plain. Any another interesting idea is that they are in talks with the city of Burnaby to take heat from their incinerator located 4,5KM away to heat the buildings for this project.:tup:

First units are expected to be occupied in 2011.

I have a stack of new pdfs on this project, the latest set is over 400mbs. If someone really wants them I can burn a cd. PM me.

[deasine]

A BEACH?! NO WAY... -__-" I don't know who the hell would want to swim in the Fraser River X___X" Mitchel Island is also across the other side...

[twoNeurons]

Beaches aren't only for swimming.

[jlousa]

Mitchell island quite a bit further west. The water sound be fine although cold, the beach on the Richmond side further west is always busy in the summer.

[vanman]

A BEACH?! NO WAY... -__-" I don't know who the hell would want to swim in the Fraser River X___X" Mitchel Island is also across the other side...

There is actually quite a nice beach along the Fraser underneath the skytrain bridge in Surrey. I would probably hang out there once in awhile if it wasn't for the fact that it is located in sketchy mcsketch town. It doesn't help that there is a seriously seedy bar close by.

[phesto]

I've spoken with enough environmental/engineering people to avoid swimming in the Fraser River...ever.

A beach is still a great idea though. There are quite a few little parks along the Fraser that have beaches that are really popular with dog owners.

[jlousa]

Council approved the new expanded phase 1 tonight, it was a long session tonight and it just ended at 10:40pm. Thank goodness for laptops and wireless internet. :cheers:

[SpongeG]

i don't think anyone would ever swim in the river anyway

but it would provide a nice place to hang out lie out

[phesto]

Any news on this? I've heard rumours it will be put on hold, but I was optimistic that they would forge ahead with phase 1 and maybe defer the marketing phase as long as possible.

[jlousa]

They are going ahead with some prelimanary work on the site, but it appears they will wait for the market to turn before proceeding.

[vanman]

Well phase I is massive is it not? It doesn't surprise me that it's now on hold.

[wrenegade]

The magic number is 700 residential units pre-sold (or most of that plus leases signed for some of the bigger grocery/drug anchors) before shovels go in the ground.

[city-dweller]

Head of the developer recently said if market was still too soft they may commence the re-zoning application for phase two. The rezoning apps can take up to a year so this is still good news.

[VicDuck]

Any recent news on this development?

[jlousa]

Phase 2 rezoning brought a few changes but nothing major. It now appears that more of the residential will be started before the retail, due to market conditions. Don't expect to see anything though till a bit after the games.

[VicDuck]

Thanks.

[deasine]

Good to see at least something is still happening.

[SpongeG]

Vancouver’s East Fraserlands heats up

By Carlito Pablo

Before the economy tanked last year, there wasn’t much disagreement about what to do with Vancouver’s East Fraserlands.

Once the site of the Canadian White Pine Mill, this former industrial area in the southeast corner of the city was envisioned by many as a “complete” community by the Fraser River. Here, residents would live, work, shop, and play locally.

Under the plan adopted by the city in 2006, development is to take place in phases. It starts with Area 1, a 21-hectare parcel of land that will underpin the sustainability of the entire East Fraserlands project. It’s supposed to be the heart of the new community and where most of the services and facilities, including a commercial centre, will be located. On September 16, 2008, city council approved the rezoning of this area.

Then the recession kicked in.

Faced with financing difficulties, ParkLane Homes, the developer of the land, is now saying it can’t proceed with the development of Area 1 as was originally planned.

Instead, it is seeking approval for the rezoning of Area 2, a 14-hectare parcel designated mostly for housing. The application covers 1.7 million square feet of residential space, 10,000 square feet of retail, two child-care facilities, an elementary school, parks, and underground parking.

It’s a move that enjoys support from city staff, but that has upset the East Fraserlands Committee. For many years, this citizens’ group has worked with the City of Vancouver and ParkLane Homes to ensure that sustainability was built into the development plan.

According to committee cochair Milt Bowling, the proposed change will likely result in a community similar to the West Fraserlands, what he calls an amenity-deprived neighbourhood located immediately west of Kerr Street.

“The whole idea of the East Fraserlands is environmental sustainability—a walkable, cyclable community,” Bowling told the Georgia Straight in a phone interview. “Right now, the way it looks is that East Fraserlands will be like West Fraserlands.”

This point was echoed by a letter the committee sent to Mayor Gregor Robertson, city staff, and ParkLane Homes.

Members noted that the new proposal is a major departure from the original plan, in which high-street retail, a community centre, transit, and other public facilities would be delivered in the first phase of the project.

“Since the vast majority of Phase 2 consists of housing at the western end of the site, the EFLC is concerned that building Phase 2 first will lead to a protracted period of time during which residents will be reliant on cars to move them out of the community to work, shop and play,” the group stated in the letter dated November 23, 2009.

City planner Matt Shillito said in a phone interview that ParkLane Homes is keen to break ground by the end of 2010 or early in 2011.

full article: http://www.straight.com/article-274221/vancouver/fraserlands-heats

[jlousa]

Parklane is attempting to get authorization to proceed with phase 2 ahead of phase 1. There is a bit of opposition from the locals as they would prefer to see phase 1 proceed first as w/o the high street and shopping options their will be many more car trips involved with people having to leave the area for necessities. Anyways tons of details in the following documents. Still surprised at the lack of attention this development gets as it will probably end up larger then sefc.

Area 2 and Kerr St properties rezoning
http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20091215/documents/p5.pdf

Appendices A to J
http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20091215/documents/p5AppendixA-J.pdf

Appendices K-S
http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20091215/documents/p5AppendixK-S.pdf

[officedweller]

It's standard operating procedure to get the residents in before the stores are built - otherwise the stores will just be empty boarded up/papered over spaces (i.e. a liability in respect of carrying costs).

[jlousa]

That's true, I think the concern is that the locals feel there would already be enough density to support the stores now, west fraser lands is built out already and has no retail. Not to mention that phase one would have included 3.5Million sqft of residential in itself, phase 2 on the other hand will only have 1.5M sqft of residential. Either way it doesn't matter as it appears phase 2 will now proceed before phase 1 if council goes ahead with the recommendation. Groundbreaking is set for late 2010, early 2011.

[osirisboy]

so how many social housing units are planned

[jlousa]

The affordable rental %'s vary from parcel to parcel, it's in the documents. I haven't added them all up but it looks to be around 15%.

[officedweller]

Oh yeah, good point about the western side having residents.

[hollywoodnorth]

Oh yeah, good point about the western side having residents.

plus Marine and Boundary are VERY busy roads. So the Commercial would benefit from that as well. Look at the success of Marine and Bryne Road.....the 2 Retail Projects there are doing amazingly well.

[LeftCoaster]

Still surprised at the lack of attention this development gets as it will probably end up larger then sefc.


Well it is still quite a ways away from groundbreaking and it isn't in the dt core... Not exactly a great combination for garnering attention around these parts. I'm sure attention will pick up once plans are more concrete and things are in motion.

[deasine]

Well it is still quite a ways away from groundbreaking and it isn't in the dt core... Not exactly a great combination for garnering attention around these parts. I'm sure attention will pick up once plans are more concrete and things are in motion.

The fact that it's in the other corner of Vancouver. As for going ahead with Phase 2, I rather see something there over nothing. Once there are more residents in the area, I think there will be increasing pressure for Parkhomes to develop Phase 1 with "the village" and commercial/retail "high street" area. Some sort of a streetcar might also be looked at more.

[wrenegade]

plus Marine and Boundary are VERY busy roads. So the Commercial would benefit from that as well. Look at the success of Marine and Bryne Road.....the 2 Retail Projects there are doing amazingly well.

uhhhh, not really. All of our clients sales there are well below average.

[officedweller]

from News1130:

Southeast Vancouver gets set for development
Open house will allow people to see what could be coming

Tamara Slobogean May 26, 2010 09:20:02 AM

http://media.greenradio.topscms.com/images/6e/2c/a4bf3deb4613bf2b07825426fc5b.jpeg

VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) - It stretches from the Fraser River, to Marine Way, between Boundary and Kerr. Tonight, at an open house, you can get a better sense of what the first neighbourhood park will look like in the coming East Fraserlands development.


When it's finished, the neighbourhood will be a 'complete community' -- that could one day even include access by light rapid transit.

Alan Duncan is an environmental planner with the Park Board. Tonight between 5:00pm and 8:00pm, the park board hosts the first open house on the proposed design for East Fraserlands Neighbourhood Park at the Killarney Community Centre.

This is the very first time they'll have gone to the public after re-zoning for part of the East Fraserlands was approved. This is a chance to show the people some of the latest ideas and they're looking for public feedback.

Eventually, it's expected the area will be home to about 13,000 people, complete with a school, a shops, parks and waterfront access.

Duncan says one of the basic things they want to ensure is good transit access from day one. They are working with TransLink to make sure that happens. He says the very long term plan is to have a rail corridor going through the centre of it which could someday be developed to connect with the Canada Line.

He feels this could change the dynamic dramatically from what it is today.

[osirisboy]

^^ Interesting, Im confused though. isn't this land currently all industrial land? I thought the city was trying to preserve its industrial areas. Wasnt the City really concerned about loosing the industrial land at Cambie and marine for the marine gateway project, yet they approve this development? maybe Im missing something.

[trofirhen]

A city has to grow, and this is an area well suited to take up some of the slack, it's true. However, don't forget please, that there are a lot of market gardeners along here who grow fresh produce; vegetables, herbs, and even raise chickens that are an important produce supply to many large Vancouver supermarkets, and not only little corner stores. This is just something to keep in mind when thinking about large-scale development in the area.

[jlousa]

This area was removed from industrial zoning ~ a decade ago. It's the one that started the fighting about Vancouver talking the talk but not walking the walk.

Let me be the first to predict that upon buildout this area will house more then 13K. ;)

[SpikePhanta]

I really like this development! One thing is certain needs better transit.
Heck the 116 doesnt even surve the market crossing properly and even though i like close by I don't go there often.


Also as torfirhen about the farms, i would agree.

I really like the farms in burnaby around Marine and hopefully it wont affect those farms in the next 20 years or so.