Rapid Transit

[SteelTown]

The Rapid Transit Feasibility Study was released this morning. Contains a lot of details.

The report......

http://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/5A27FE21-49F5-4AEE-AE7D-CD3F7B88B8BE/0/Apr14PW08043.pdf

[SteelTown]

Providing BRT services along the two identified routes is estimated to have a capital cost of $480 million, including for construction and maintenance, and servicing and storage facility (improvements), and 25 additional articulated hybrid buses (estimated cost of $900,000 each). Operating costs are estimated to be $80/revenue hour/vehicle. Based on MoveOntario 2020, Provincial and Federal funding for capital for rapid transit along these two corridors could be expected, but the amount to be expected is still to be determined.

The construction costs for BRT are based on an estimate of $6.5 million/km for one-way streets, and $9 million/km for two-way streets.

Providing LRT services along the two identified routes has an estimated capital cost of $1.1 billion, including construction, bridge improvements, Escarpment crossing tunnels and a new garage or storage facility. The cost for Light Rail Vehicles is estimated to be $4 million each. Operating costs are estimated at $175/revenue hour/vehicle. Funding from the MoveOntario 2020 initiative is also expected, at the levels indicated above for BRT.

The construction costs for LRT are based on estimates of $15 million/km for one-way streets and $25 million/km for two-way streets. It should be noted that Hamilton can request additional funding from Metrolinx, or other Provincial or Federal programs as appropriate.

[SteelTown]

I can understand the need for the tunnel as being a West Mount resident there's only Beckett (Queen St) and James Mountain access for the West End, which both is a single narrow lane. Come around 7-9 in the morning and check Garth St from Mohawk to Beckett Drive all solid congestion traffic, since there's two lanes narrowing down to a single lane down the Mountain.

One of the reason there was protest for high density housing development for the Chedoke land was because it'll mean more people and more people cramming up Beckett and James Mountain access.

Now closing James Mountain for BRT or LRT instead of no tunnel you'll face a revolt from some West Mount residents, Whitehead will be flipping lol.

[HAMRetrofit]

The West Mount residents will need to ride the LRT to avoid congestion. ;)

[SteelTown]

Hamilton’s on the road to a transit revolution

April 10, 2008
By Nicole MacIntyre

Transit users rejoice and car junkies brace yourselves — Hamilton is preparing for a transportation revolution.

The city is working on a new rapid transit system that it hopes will pull upwards of 20 per cent of cars off the road over the next few decades.

This spring, the public will have an opportunity to comment on two options: a rapid bus system or a light rail transit line.

Regardless of which option prevails, rapid transit will transform Hamiltonians’ daily commute, said Gerry Davis, director of capital planning and implementation. “We want to get people out of their cars.”

A bus rapid system would mean dedicated transit lanes and advanced lights for buses. James Mountain Road would also be closed, except for transit. A light rail system, like those in Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, Scarborough and Ottawa — would also take up space currently devoted to cars.

“A lot of car drivers aren’t going to like it,” said Councillor Brian McHattie. “It will be controversial.”

But, he argues, if the city wants to change the status quo, it must embrace a transit plan that is bold.

The city is hoping to capitalize on provincial funding after the government declared rapid transit a priority. More than $30 million has already been committed to the city’s rapid transit system.

Rapid transit would be dedicated to three main corridors: King and Main streets from McMaster to Eastgate Square; James and Upper James streets; and an east-west Mountain route.

McHattie favours a light rail system from downtown to McMaster as a start.

A group of transit users has been building support for a light rail option for months, lobbying city staff and creating a website.

While light rail costs more, it has the potential to generate economic development and increase ridership, said advocate Nicholas Kevlahan. “If Hamilton holds back once again, we’ll see another community surge ahead.”


WHICH ROUTE WOULD YOU TAKE?

Imagine sitting at a red light in 10 years and watching a packed bus or train whiz by, beating you to the same destination. Would it be enough to make you toss away your car keys?

The city is planning for a new rapid transit system that officials hope will encourage thousands of Hamiltonians to leave their cars at home.

Councillors will have their first look at a rapid transit feasibility study next week before it heads out for public input this spring.

Officials say it’s important that the city consider the two rapid transit options — light rail transit or rapid buses — from a financial, environmental and social perspective.

Combining the two systems is also possible. There’s hope the province would pick up the capital cost of building either system.

LIGHT RAIL TRANSIT
Capital costs:
$15 million per km for one-way streets
$25 million per km for two-way streets
$4 million per light rail vehicle
Operating cost:
$175 per hour running per vehicle, but holds more passengers than a bus.

Highlights:
- Runs at street level, propelled by overhead electrical wires
- Carries at least twice as many passengers as rapid buses
- More permanent than bus route, known to inspire economic development along a line
- More attractive to riders
- Would require an underground tunnel to make it up the Mountain.

BUS RAPID TRANSIT
Capital costs:
$6.5 million per km for one-way streets
$9 million per km for two-way streets
$900,000 per new articulated hybrid bus
$80 per hour running per bus

Highlights:
- Greater flexibility than rail system
- Fewer operating constraints, such as overhead bridges
- Can handle escarpment grade on James Mountain Road
- Less “sexy” to new riders

[RePinion]

Excellent. So happy to see a continuation of the timidly positive line on LRT which the Spec seems to have endorsed. However, a truly responsible paper would have undertaken a more critical analysis of the report. In the long term, the per hour operating costs of BRT will almost assuredly surpass those of LRT.

[SteelTown]

I encourage everyone here at SSP:Local Hamilton attend this open house in the spring.

Perhaps make it a forum meet and meet at the same time.

[DHLawrence]

The figures given in that article make it sound like they're promoting BRT by saying it costs less--that's all that less discerning readers will notice.

[go_leafs_go02]

but the descriptions sound alot more like they support LRT, include saying that it is more sexy to attract new riders, that it is more expensive, but yet holds alot more players.

And read this:

Highlights:
- Greater flexibility than rail system
- Fewer operating constraints, such as overhead bridges
- Can handle escarpment grade on James Mountain Road
- Less “sexy” to new riders

LESS doesn't sound like a highlight :P

[coalminecanary]

Something has got to be fundamentally wrong with their calculations. Everything else I have read puts LRT way below BRT in operational costs, and that's at current oil prices. How can this report clain that LRT costs twice as much to operate as BRT?

And another thing... why are they planning for a TUNNEL for the n/s route? Why not use claremont??

[SteelTown]

And another thing... why are they planning for a TUNNEL for the n/s route? Why not use claremont??

Cause A-Line goes along James to James Mountain Access. Unless you want A-Line to turn on Main from James and up along Wellington.

"The ability of LRT vehicles to handle grades, such as those found on Hamilton’s Escarpment crossings is more limited that that of BRT vehicles. James Mountain Road has grades up to 10.7%; BRT vehicles can handle these grades with some impacts to their operating speed, but the use of LRT vehicles on steep slopes like these is precluded. To allow LRT vehicles to cross the Escarpment in this location, twin 6.5m diameter tunnels at 5% grades would be required. These tunnels would extend from approximately St. Joseph’s Hospital to Mohawk College."

[SteelTown]

Another problem with LRT....

"Increased vertical clearance is required for LRT vehicles and their pantographs than for BRT vehicles. Two structures, the TH&B bridge over James Street South (3.9m vertical clearance) and the pedestrian bridge over King Street West at Summers Lane (4.2m) are too low to allow LRT vehicles to pass under them, as LRT vehicles require 4.8m vertical clearance."

Looks like the pedestrian bridge over King has to go. Get replaced and raised higher.

They should re-route A-Line to turn on Main and go up Wellington (use Claremont access instead) and link up with Upper James directly. A short detour to Fennell to link up Mohawk and then back to Upper James. Doing that you won't have to build a tunnel and redo the TH&B bridge over James. Probably save millions doing that.

[go_leafs_go02]

Those bridges on James and John need to be replaced and perhaps dug out deeper and widened in order to allow better bus service in case we move the HSR terminal to the GO centre. All in the process. I'm soo shocked no vehicles have been clipped underneath there, lower the intersections at Hunter on both James and John, and get rid of that central pillar. They'll eventually have to go, they're an eyesore in alot of ways, and replacement would help all modes of transportation (cars, buses, and LRT)

[SteelTown]

Or just leave it and go with BRT for A-Line, which I say is 70% chance of happening. I would be super shocked if council approved LRT for A-Line.

[go_leafs_go02]

Dream big, dream big.

No one does around here, this city has the MOST potential arguably amongst all cities in Ontario. But yet, look where it is. A LRT system going on two lines would be the best thing we need. Sure Artic buses are nice, but they aren't really that different than a conventional bus.

[Millstone]

Those bridges on James and John need to be replaced and perhaps dug out deeper and widened in order to allow better bus service in case we move the HSR terminal to the GO centre. All in the process. I'm soo shocked no vehicles have been clipped underneath there, lower the intersections at Hunter on both James and John, and get rid of that central pillar. They'll eventually have to go, they're an eyesore in alot of ways, and replacement would help all modes of transportation (cars, buses, and LRT)

The bridges have historic value, I kinda like them.

[SteelTown]

My predicition is that council will support two phases for the East-West corridor. First LRT line from McMaster to Downtown. Then Downtown to Eastgate. BRT for A-Line.

[matt602]

I'm gonna agree with that prediction as a best case scenario.

[raisethehammer]

let's hope the Spec does some actual research (for possibly the first time in decades) and finds out the hundreds of millions in economic development spinoff that LRT can generate. NOW is the time for them, the Chamber, the city, the poverty groups and everyone else in town to join forces for one huge cause - surging our economy. Forget the transit aspect of this...the EcDev aspect is really incredible. City hall says that's their main focus. So does the Chamber and anyone else involved in this city (as it should be). This is our chance to take a transit system and have it revolutionize our lower city and suburban Upper James strip.
I'm going to push hard for LRT on both with the hopes that we at least get LRT on the east/west corridor.

It's time for letters to the editor people. you know the car-addicts will be out in full force like they have been lately with the one-way stuff.
Keep pumping EcDev numbers and stats....nobody can argue that stuff. And it's exactly what the Hammer needs.

[HAMRetrofit]

Or just leave it and go with BRT for A-Line, which I say is 70% chance of happening. I would be super shocked if council approved LRT for A-Line.

The chances are good that it will be BRT for Upper James. But we all know how the city has big plans for the airport. Running LRT to the airport could potentially attract more business from the western GTA.

[FairHamilton]

The city is working on a new rapid transit system that it hopes will pull upwards of 20 per cent of cars off the road over the next few decades.

My guess is the cost of fuel will do that more than the development of any transit option. Once gas hit's 1.50/ltr - 1.75/ltr we'll see some adjustment to peoples driving patterns.

I think we'll see 1.30/ltr - 1.35/ltr before the end of 2008 (perhaps as soon as this summer), and that means we'll be getting closer.

[go_leafs_go02]

I'm worried about something kinda unrelated.

A recession. I have a feeling that it is going to be BIG, like big big big, almost comparable to the 1930s. If that happens, we'll be once again, focusing on paying out welfare cheques to even more unemployed people in Hamilton. That money will be gone, and I doubt transit will be a priority to Hamiltonians if alot of ppl don't even have a job.

[SteelTown]

If 1930s happened again, which I doubt it (especially not this year), transit funding will have a better chance of happening. Government projects create jobs.

There are countless of projects that happened in Hamilton during the 1930s.

[JT Jacobs]

My guess is the cost of fuel will do that more than the development of any transit option. Once gas hit's 1.50/ltr - 1.75/ltr we'll see some adjustment to peoples driving patterns.

I think we'll see 1.30/ltr - 1.35/ltr before the end of 2008 (perhaps as soon as this summer), and that means we'll be getting closer.

It's $1.26 right now in Kelowna, so your projection of 1.30, to my mind, isn't all that far off.

[raisethehammer]

If 1930s happened again, which I doubt it (especially not this year), transit funding will have a better chance of happening. Government projects create jobs.

There are countless of projects that happened in Hamilton during the 1930s.

yup...some of Hamilton's best landmarks were built in that era - LIUNA Station, Pigott building and High Level Bridge.

We'll be making this decision in the next few months so I don't think a 1930 will happen that quickly.

[raisethehammer]

It's $1.26 right now in Kelowna, so your projection of 1.30, to my mind, isn't all that far off.

Bring on LRT and bring on $2.00 a litre baby!

[HAMRetrofit]

Lobby the steel and concrete manufacturers for support. With the construction economy this stands to generate, they will be the primary benefactors. The way to get most of Hamilton on board is to talk about the construction market the system will generate.

The St. Clair streetcar line in Toronto has already generated millions in new construction and it is only part finished.

[RePinion]

yup...some of Hamilton's best landmarks were built in that era - LIUNA Station, Pigott building and High Level Bridge.

We'll be making this decision in the next few months so I don't think a 1930 will happen that quickly.

Neither the Pigott nor the high level bridge were depression era make-work projects. Both were conceived and initiated during the 1920s, well before the reality of the stock market collapse hit home.

[hamiltonguy]

Neither the Pigott nor the high level bridge were depression era make-work projects. Both were conceived and initiated during the 1920s, well before the reality of the stock market collapse hit home.

But they missed the TH&B grade separation...

[beanmedic]

I'm worried about something kinda unrelated.

A recession. I have a feeling that it is going to be BIG, like big big big, almost comparable to the 1930s. If that happens, we'll be once again, focusing on paying out welfare cheques to even more unemployed people in Hamilton. That money will be gone, and I doubt transit will be a priority to Hamiltonians if alot of ppl don't even have a job.

It is sure to happen if people keep saying things like that.

[Jon Dalton]

I have some issues with the report. First, they claim "LRT vehicles can carry approximately double the amount of passengers that BRT vehicles can." This in conjunction with their operating cost estimates of $80 and $175 per vehicle hour, puts LRT costs per passenger mile slightly higher than BRT.

I trust that in further analysis they will also consider rising fuel prices vs. electricity prices and the longevity of electric rail vehicles vs. diesel buses. Also multi-vehicle LRT's carrying 3 or 4 times as many passengers as an articulated bus are quite common and realize greater efficiency due to mechanical coupling and still only requiring one operator.

The report also states that while the James Mountain Rd. acces is a 10.7% maximum grade, an LRT tunnel up the escarpment would need to be limited to 5%. There are LRT vehicles that handle well over 5% grade, for example the system in Sheffield, England has a maximum grade of 10%. During one severe winter storm, traffic was halted throughout the city but the LRT kept running up and down those hills.

[raisethehammer]

yes, you can tell that they added the 'research' on LRT at the last minute and didn't really do much research.
that's fine though...this is just opening up the conversation...now is where we come in to play and help educate them on proper numbers, other alternatives, EcDev spinoffs, operating costs etc.....

[FairHamilton]

It's $1.26 right now in Kelowna, so your projection of 1.30, to my mind, isn't all that far off.

Yeah, that's pretty close to my prediction price.

But, right now in Southern Ontario it's 1.11 - 1.12/ltr, so we still need a 16% - 21% increase to hit the $1.30 - 1.35/ltr range. I think that could be a reality in Southern Ontario in the next few months.

All it would take is one or two things to happen, i.e. Hurricane in the Gulf of Mexico, heightened Nigerian unrest, renewed Chavez rhetoric, etc.

[coalminecanary]

Cause A-Line goes along James to James Mountain Access. Unless you want A-Line to turn on Main from James and up along Wellington.

Well, the A line doesn't go anywhere right now. They have the power to plan it wherever it makes the most sense. So my answer is, yes, I'd like to see it take main over and access claremont. Actually, that might be cool because b line can be on king, a line on main (or b line on main and a-line uses king to get over to utilize calremont) -- then both major through streets benefit from LRT going through the core!

The bridges have historic value, I kinda like them.

Me too :-)

My predicition is that council will support two phases for the East-West corridor. First LRT line from McMaster to Downtown. Then Downtown to Eastgate. BRT for A-Line.

My main worry is that this report really paints LT as an economic loser which is entirely inaccurate. It may be too expensive for the A line, I'll concede to that. But by lumping them together under one budget amount as an "all or nothing", they are setting us up for status quo as usual!

They should have put in numbers for a third option... LRT for B, BRT for A and that oculd be the intro of lrt into hamilton. and once it blows main street ec dev through the roof, then the case for conversion of a-line is that much stronger.

i'm glad they are mentioning lrt, but in all i think this report is brt-centric and kind of lame.

It's time for letters to the editor people. you know the car-addicts will be out in full force like they have been lately with the one-way stuff.
Keep pumping EcDev numbers and stats....nobody can argue that stuff. And it's exactly what the Hammer needs.

Agreed! i'm going to be writing some doozies!

[SteelTown]

Well, the A line doesn't go anywhere right now. They have the power to plan it wherever it makes the most sense. So my answer is, yes, I'd like to see it take main over and access claremont. Actually, that might be cool because b line can be on king, a line on main (or b line on main and a-line uses king to get over to utilize calremont) -- then both major through streets benefit from LRT going through the core!

Yea it would be a lot cheaper if A-Line turned on Main from James and link up with B-Line rail lines along Main Street then exit out making a right turn to Wellington from Main.

Coming down Wellington, heading North, and turn left on King to again link up with B-Line rail line along King and turn right on James from King.

Doing that you'll save a lot of money and share parts of the B-Line rail line.

[HAMRetrofit]

Another possible routing of the A-line North

The A-line would start at the Bayfront GO station. It would run south along Hughson St. where vehicle traffic can be reduced or eliminated. It would connect to the Downtown GO station. From there it would head east along Hunter with reduced or eliminated vehicle traffic. It would connect directly to the Claremount Access. The space necessary to accommodate LRT on the west side of the access would be converted for LRT use. The east side of Clairmount would be for vehicles with a barrier between. The LRT would continue up the escarpment using the Claremont Access Rd. to West 5th St. The LRT would travel south to Fennel with a terminal at Mohawk. It then would head east along Fennel and turn heading south onto Upper James.

EDITED.

[SteelTown]

I know your from Toronto but your North is different from our North, other side of the Lake. North for Hamilton is going towards the waterfront.

[markbarbera]

The cost of LRT would be greatly reduced if it was bidirectional on the same route. Construction of the B-line along one-way streets would have a total cost of about $420 million, while a two-way route would cost $350 million. I really think the east-west line should run two-way on Main.

As far as the A-line goes, I would love to see it LRT as well. Tunnelling is way too cost prohibitive. I'd prefer a route that I have suggested in other threads (and mentioned recently here) where it uses the Claremont to cross the escarpment. Ideally, I would like to see that line come down from the airport via Claremont then join the B-line track to run to the city centre and continue west along the B-line track to McMaster terminal.

I would also suggest another line (hey, let's dream big!) that could run along James heading north from Charlton to Barton, then continue east along Barton to Centennial, then north along Centennial to link up with the Eastgate Terminal. This would be a terrific boost for the whole Barton Street stretch, and could act as a quick connect between the GO train stations.

[raisethehammer]

perhaps the A-Line could come up James and go east on Charlton with a stop in front of St. Joes. Another stop at Ferguson and then have it curve onto the Claremont Access into an LRT-only lane. It could take that vastly empty rampway that leads to West 5th (perhaps that could be closed to transit and emerg vehicles only instead of James Mtn. Road) off the Claremont and then voila - right to the college, along Fennell to James and up to the airport. I would love it if we could get LRT on both lines...the tunnels and James Mtn Rd ideas seem to costly. This routing would be beneficial to the businesses/residents along James South, Corktown and Durand and would add one more stop in the heart of Corktown at Ferguson.
Hunter is too close to King/Main to run another rail line...Charlton would be great servicing the high density neighbourhoods along the base of the escarpment.

[the dude]

i've tweaked a map i posted a few months ago. i've got lrt routes on barton, main, james north, james south/charlton to MIP, mohawk, claremont/upper james and i've thrown in a route from the th&b to the east moutain using an old radial line. not necessary but it's fun to think about just the same. there are a million different ways to lay out our routes but at the very least i think it's a nice visual.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/the_dude1974/LRT-1.jpg

[DC83]

^^ Neat map! I see you added Bratina's Rail Trail link as well! I really like that idea, but I think it needs to be extended to Rymal to meet up w/ the (soon-to-be) Rymal route & maybe a commuter pkng lot for those in Glanbrook area.

[raisethehammer]

IMO we should push for the modern streetcars:

http://www.skoda.cz/darkblue/produkty.asp?Q853A=C0J2P1T1K61ID5586

Read about their advantages over LRT in terms of vehicle size (8 feet), cost of construction (shallow slab) along with still providing an LRT service in it's own lanes, lights etc....

http://world.nycsubway.org/us/portland/streetcar.html

We'd be building a 'rapid streetcar' line:

http://www.lightrailnow.org/features/f_lrt_2007-02a.htm

Portland uses the 3-section vehicle. I'd suggest we use the 5-section.

[the dude]

i guess i've been using the term LRT in a very general sense, including steetcars in that category. so, what's the difference? speed? cost? capacity?

[raisethehammer]

The mayor posted on the Hallmarks blog and wants LRT for the lower city.

[the dude]

^^ Neat map! I see you added Bratina's Rail Trail link as well! I really like that idea, but I think it needs to be extended to Rymal to meet up w/ the (soon-to-be) Rymal route & maybe a commuter pkng lot for those in Glanbrook area.

yes i did. when bob says jump i say, 'how high?' seriously though, it would be a good idea to extend it to rymal. i had it terminate at mohawk 'cause i didn't know what else to do with it. also, the same thing could be done on the west mountain using the old radial route to ancaster and beyond.

[chris k]

IMO we should push for the modern streetcars:

http://www.skoda.cz/darkblue/produkty.asp?Q853A=C0J2P1T1K61ID5586

Read about their advantages over LRT in terms of vehicle size (8 feet), cost of construction (shallow slab) along with still providing an LRT service in it's own lanes, lights etc....

http://world.nycsubway.org/us/portland/streetcar.html

We'd be building a 'rapid streetcar' line:

http://www.lightrailnow.org/features/f_lrt_2007-02a.htm

Portland uses the 3-section vehicle. I'd suggest we use the 5-section.

I think something of this size should be perfect for Hamilton (from Wikipedia):)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Zagreb_tram,_complete_view.jpg/800px-Zagreb_tram,_complete_view.jpg

[DC83]

^^ To be honest, that may be a little big. The cars wouldn't fill up.

I think they need a train 2 or 3 cars long every 10 mins, just like the B-Line w/ the Artic-Hybrid Buses. They seem to be the perfect size MOST of the time. Rush hour, however, could use 3 cars.

[go_leafs_go02]

^^ To be honest, that may be a little big. The cars wouldn't fill up.

I think they need a train 2 or 3 cars long every 10 mins, just like the B-Line w/ the Artic-Hybrid Buses. They seem to be the perfect size MOST of the time. Rush hour, however, could use 3 cars.
dream big i guess. More space, less crushloading equals a better riding experience for those just 'testing' the system to see what it's like. I think an oversized tram or whatever would be appropriate. We're looking to take supposedly 20% of vehicles off the road. I think that would supply more than enough passengers to fill a vehicle like that at peak times.

[DC83]

dream big i guess. More space, less crushloading equals a better riding experience for those just 'testing' the system to see what it's like. I think an oversized tram or whatever would be appropriate. We're looking to take supposedly 20% of vehicles off the road. I think that would supply more than enough passengers to fill a vehicle like that at peak times.

Good point! I'm just worried about the bureaucrats being all "Well why would we need THAT many cars!? Our ridership isn't even that high... BRT IT IS!"

And the more I actually look at that pic, I guess it's a decent size. Pretty much the size of 1.5 Artic Buses.

[flar]

That thing would fill up at Mac no problem.

[chris k]

I am saying that would be perfect for B-line or even if they combined 1 King to use lrt as well.

[SteelTown]

Here's a picture I cut out from a Transportation Plan awhile ago. Gives an idea about the transit median for Upper James and Main St West, Longwood to McMaster University.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/UpperJames.jpg

[raisethehammer]

way more people will use this than BRT. we'll need much bigger vehicles for LRT.

[SteelTown]

Transit debate rages on
Ken Mann
4/14/2008

Hamilton politicians have had a tentative first look at options for the future of transit.

They've decided to gather public input into the concepts or light rail and rapid bus transit, before making any decisions about push forward with either idea.

Both options would result in lanes be closed off to motorists on some of the city's busiest streets, something that doesn't sit well with Ancaster's Lloyd Ferguson.

He predicts a "rebellion", on the part of those who pay the bulk of the taxes in our community.

The debate is happening now, in large part because of the availability of federal and provincial funding for transit projects. The goal would be to reduce private automobile use by 20% in future decades.

[SteelTown]

All right time to begin probably one of the greatest and most important debate of our time!

[SteelTown]

So lets say there's a vote for approval for the Rapid Transit Office to officially endorse LRT for the B-Line which councilors do you think would support it?

For sure definitely.....
Bob Bratina
Brian McHattie
Sam Merulla
Mayor Fred

Likely support LRT for B-Line
Chad Collins
Bernie Morelli
Tom Jackson
Brad Clark

Unsure
Scott Duvall
Terry Whitehead
Maria Pearson
Russ Powers
Robert Pasuta

Likely against LRT
Margaret McCarthy
David L. Mitchell
Lloyd Ferguson

Need 8 votes to pass a majority.

[raisethehammer]

please put a muzzle on Lloyd Ferguson during this debate. he's such an idiot.
Go biking with Mitchell you loser.

[coalminecanary]

I went to the meeting today and there were some depressing moments. Hard to gauge the overall feeling. A couple REALLY against ANY transit that takes car lanes away, and a couple REALLY getting behind LRT. Most still have lots of questions, which is understandable because the report was very generic and left a lot out.

Amazing, 2 councillors voted AGAINST gathering info from the public. I just don't understand that attitude. I can understand some people not seeing the advantages of LRT, but to be against RESEARCHING it!??

[SteelTown]

Please don't turn this into an urban vs. suburban bickering fest, we'll waste pages of back and forth nonsense. Lloyd has his opinion and hopefully he's a minority, which I think he is. All news sources have to cover the other side.

Anyways I emailed Whitehead so I'm waiting for his reply. Hopefully it's good.

[coalminecanary]

btw there is a light rail meeting at frwy cafe tuesday night (tomorrow apr 15)

I highly recommend checking it out. I have not been to one in quite some time, but now is a good time to get (back) into it.

We should all arm ourselves with as much info as possible and just start spreading it to anyone who will listen. We will have to start counteracting the stream of inaccuracies that are bound to flow from all the studies that come to light which will probably favour brt.

I still can't believe the initial report claims LRT costs the same per passenger mile to operate as BRT. Everything else I have read suggests LRT is cheaper in the long run to operate... and that's at gas rpices that are usually a couple years old. Even at current diesel prices, BRT must be significantly more operationally, and getting worse by the year... To me, this point alone is enough to favour LRT, especially if the province is going to lay down cash for the initial installation.

[coalminecanary]

Well Ferguson today said (almost a direct quote) 'I refuse to support any [transit initiative] that permanently eliminates car lanes on main or king'. His reasoning is that the majority of taxpayers in this city drive a car and have no choice but to drive a car every day, and taking lanes away is going to cause permanent end-of-the-world scaled traffic problems.

So if anyone is turning this into an urban vs suburban battle, it's definitely not us on this forum.

[hamiltonguy]

Well Ferguson today said (almost a direct quote) 'I refuse to support any [transit initiative] that permanently eliminates car lanes on main or king'. His reasoning is that the majority of taxpayers in this city drive a car and have no choice but to drive a car every day, and taking lanes away is going to cause permanent end-of-the-world scaled traffic problems.

So if anyone is turning this into an urban vs suburban battle, it's definitely not us on this forum.


Agreed. Ferguson (and his brother), Mitchell and McCarthy started this battle long ago.

What we need is a councilor or two who will fillibuster every meeting that Ferguson, Mitchell and McCarthy attend. They've blocked any meaningful progress in the city for years by refusing to discuss anything that they don't like, and its time we ended their careers.

[HAMRetrofit]

Well Ferguson today said (almost a direct quote) 'I refuse to support any [transit initiative] that permanently eliminates car lanes on main or king'. His reasoning is that the majority of taxpayers in this city drive a car and have no choice but to drive a car every day, and taking lanes away is going to cause permanent end-of-the-world scaled traffic problems.

So if anyone is turning this into an urban vs suburban battle, it's definitely not us on this forum.

This sounds like propaganda. How can an individual refuse at the minimum understanding something that will have such a positive affect on the city. Even if the mighty tax base is pro LRT, is he still going to oppose it? Last time I checked we were a democracy over here or is that not the case anymore?

[coalminecanary]

I'm telling you it was crazy. He and McCarthy were literally falling all over themselves to defend what they consider the silent majority -- car lovers. They were (with straight faces) saying that the majority of the city's taxpayers were "normal people" who drive to their jobs and pay their taxes. They said we never hear from these normal people who pay their taxes on time every year because they are so busy going to work every day that they don't have time to attend council meetings. They said that they needed to defend these people's rights to their lanes since they couldn't be there to defend themselves. I'm not even kidding. They are busy defending the people who DONT BOTHER TO LET THEIR COUCILLORS KNOW THEIR STANCE ON ANYTHING.

I got news for everyone who hasn't figured it out. "Those people" that they are defending are simply themselves. Clark came back with an awesome response that basically said "have you ever talked to your constituents? cause i have talked to mine, and a lot of them are stressed out because it costs them more in gas to commute to work than they make in a day -- they are looking for real alternatives to their cars". It was great. And then when ferguson went on about removing any mention about dedicated transit lanes form the report, clark was like "you know, if we dont have dedicated lanes, we might not actually GET any money form metrolinx"... well played.

It was an interesting morning, that's for sure.

[Jon Dalton]

There is no need to even comment on where the councillors come from who oppose any rapid transit initiative: Their arguments speak for themselves. Any urban/suburban tangent this goes on won't help the argument. If the debate is LRT vs. BRT, Ferguson and Mitchell have already lost. It's either grid-connected light rail vehicles in dedicated lanes or diesel / hybrid / natural gas buses in dedicated lanes. There is no 'do nothing' alternative.

[the dude]

sigh. it's so fatiguing to listen to such moronic banter, but i suppose it's par for the course at city hall.

here's another map. i figure all these routes could be had for a mere $10B. ;-)
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/the_dude1974/hsrmap.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/the_dude1974/modernstreetcar.jpghttp://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/the_dude1974/Streetcar.jpghttp://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/the_dude1974/streetcar3.jpghttp://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/the_dude1974/STREETCAR5.gif

[DC83]

Lloyd Ferguson - Ward 12 -

reducing lanes on Main Street for Rapid Transit "is rediculous"...

The story was IN the Spec, but not on TheSpec.com?

EDIT: sorry, internet was acting up

Council Contacts: http://www.myhamilton.ca/myhamilton/CityandGovernment/YourElectedOfficials/CityCouncillors/

Lloyd Ferguson: lferguson@hamilton.ca

We need to email them ALL to lobby for LRT... I have already started ;)

[raisethehammer]

man, I love seeing those modern streetcar photos. I hope we do this.
Yea, those two idiots from the burbs are clueless....
the 'silent majority'??? I had no clue that the 'majority' of Hamiltonians are tickled pink with our city's economy and overall state.
It just goes to show you that they actually WANT Hamilton to remain as it's been for decades. Pretty scary when people like that are in public office.
Thankfully, it's only 2 of them. And we all expected it anyhow, so no worries.

This won't be one of those suburban-urban type of issues that sees mountain councillors on the suburban side as happens quite often. They are part of the old Hamilton and will benefit directly from this. I'd expect about 2/3 of council to support this.

[raisethehammer]

sigh. it's so fatiguing to listen to such moronic banter, but i suppose it's par for the course at city hall.

here's another map. i figure all these routes could be had for a mere $10B. ;-)
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/the_dude1974/hsrmap.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/the_dude1974/modernstreetcar.jpghttp://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/the_dude1974/Streetcar.jpghttp://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/the_dude1974/streetcar3.jpghttp://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/the_dude1974/STREETCAR5.gif



FYI...these streetcars also come in the 5-section variety and are very cool:

http://www.skoda.cz/darkblue/produkty.asp?Q853A=C0J2P1T1K61ID5586

[Jon Dalton]

Great to see this on the Spec's front page again today. I wrote to Ferguson as surely many others have with all this coverage. Hopefully he's getting some response from his own ward as well as the lower city.

[SteelTown]

Could trains oust lanes on Main?
Transit plan would hijack car lanes on major arteries
April 15, 2008
Nicole MacIntyre

A suburban councillor is warning the city's plans to reduce lanes on its main arteries to make room for rapid transit will provoke a "rebellion" among car drivers.

"It's absolutely ridiculous," Councillor Lloyd Ferguson declared yesterday after reviewing the transit proposal.

Preliminary plans show parts of Main and King streets would be reduced from four traffic lanes to two wider lanes to create exclusive space for rapid buses or a light rail system. A fifth lane, now devoted to unloading and parking, would remain.

"Where are the vehicles supposed to go?" asked Ferguson, predicting mass congestion.

But Scott Stewart, general manager of public works, said the city must make significant changes if it is going to achieve its goal of reducing car trips by 20 per cent over the next few decades. "It's about having a vision. We're not talking about traffic now. We're talking about traffic in 15 to 20 years."

The city is in the early stages of planning a rapid transit system for the lower city and the Mountain. Staff plan to consult with the public this spring about the two transit options -- rapid buses in dedicated lanes or a light rail line.

The city would prefer to keep transit separate from other vehicles to ensure a clear path for buses or light rail, an advantage staff hope would make transit more attractive.

After council picks a preferred transit option later this year, it will take at least two years for an environmental assessment and planning to be completed.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger has already thrown his support behind a light rail system in the lower city.

"We should aspire high," he said, noting there's hope the province will pay to build the system.

[raisethehammer]

go check out the Hallmarks blog on the Spec site.
People are giving it to Lloyd. Nicole has had to edit a few comments so far. haha!
I hope he's reading it and thinks twice before listening to the babble from the 'establishment' in Hamilton suggesting he run for mayor.
He's an idiot and would be roundly turfed from the Hammer. Go back to Smart Centres, chump!!! Talk to the penguin!

[DHLawrence]

You almost hope that comments like his were made on purpose to rally people in support of rapid transit when they wouldn't have been otherwise. I don't know if politicians are that smart, though.

[raisethehammer]

You almost hope that comments like his were made on purpose to rally people in support of rapid transit when they wouldn't have been otherwise. I don't know if politicians are that smart, though.

some of them might be.
He's not.

[hamiltonguy]

You almost hope that comments like his were made on purpose to rally people in support of rapid transit when they wouldn't have been otherwise. I don't know if politicians are that smart, though.

Some are. For Example Stephane Dion was a Professor, and Stephen Harper was considered by his professor to be his brightest student in economics.

But I don't think we have too many at the local level, although a few are pretty intelligent such as Brad Clark, Bob Bratina, Brian McHattie, and Eisenberger ring a bell.

[realcity]

^ These are our best people on council right now. Eisenburger, Clark, Bratina and McHattie.

I've been really impressed with Clark lately. Forget Jackson (when I hear him speak it's so annoying, he's just a professional politician, never say or doing anything wrong, never do anything and you'll never do anything wrong also).... I think a good mayoral contest would be between Eisenburger and Clark... at least whoever would win out of that, Hamilton would win in either case.

I'm not sure Bratina and McHattie have mayoral ambitions.. if they did that would be great too. But Clark is ramping it up.

[SteelTown]

I'd love to see Marie Bountrogianni run for Mayor, she's got good leadership skills.

[realcity]

nice transit routes Dude

here's my wish
http://www.raisethehammer.org/index.asp?id=454
http://www.raisethehammer.org/images/trev_transit_clusters_lg.jpg

[FairHamilton]

I hope he's reading it and thinks twice before listening to the babble from the 'establishment' in Hamilton suggesting he run for mayor.

Wouldn't you want him to run for mayor?? That would be the way to vote him out of city politics. If he continues to run in his ward anyone outside his ward can't vote against him. Running for mayor gives everyone (i.e. Hamilton Centre) the opportunity to vote him away.......

[the dude]

^stranger things have happened - bush was 'elected' president...twice! the same thing could happen here. be afraid, be very afraid.

[SteelTown]

The public works department is holding a public information session on the A-Line May 6 at the Sackville Hill Seniors’ Centre on Upper Wentworth Street, and another on the B-Line May 8 at the Education Centre on Main Street West. Meeting times have not been announced.

Be there!

[SteelTown]

Will it be bus or rail?
Public asked to examine merits of each system

April 16, 2008
Eric McGuinness
The Hamilton Spectator

You learned your ABCs in school. Now it's time to learn about BRT and LRT.

You'll need to know those acronyms to take part in a big decision Hamiltonians are being asked to make by June.

After years of struggling to balance fares and service on the Hamilton Street Railway, the city is suddenly being offered lots of provincial money to build rapid transit systems from Eastgate Mall to McMaster University and from the harbour to the airport.

The cash will come from the McGuinty government's $17.5-billion Move Ontario 2020 plan announced last June that included immediate funds for more articulated, hybrid-engine buses to beef up existing crosstown service and provide regular service from downtown to the airport.

Now the public is being asked to decide by June whether, going ahead, we want buses running in reserved lanes -- bus rapid transit (BRT) -- or streetcar-like vehicles on steel rails -- light rail transit (LRT).

To add to the alphabet soup, the north-south route is being called the A-Line and the crosstown route the B-Line, not to be confused with the HSR's present east-west Bee Line semi-express bus service. The Move Ontario plan does not include a cross-Mountain route that Hamilton's Transportation Master Plan says is also needed.

The public works department is holding a public information session on the A-Line May 6 at the Sackville Hill Seniors' Centre on Upper Wentworth Street, and another on the B-Line May 8 at the Education Centre on Main Street West. Meeting times have not been announced.

Jill Stephen, manager of strategic planning, says information on the choices is not yet available on the city website, but will be posted in advance.

Current discussions are aimed only at choosing the type or types of rapid transit. Once that is decided, there will have to be a class environmental assessment that will look at alternative routes and designs.

Present plans for the east-west B-Line call for maintaining the present one-way pattern of westbound service on King Street and eastbound service on Main Street through the downtown area.

[DC83]

How rapid bus transit, light rail transit work in other cities

http://media.hamiltonspectator.com/images/cc/c3/41655a324c4499126f85800f4c0e.jpeg

Special to The Hamilton Spectator
(Apr 16, 2008)

Rapid transit is coming to Hamilton. There are two options for a new transportation system; rapid bus transit (RBT) and light rail transit (LRT).

Some North American cities have already been using these systems for years. Here's how it works for them.

Minneapolis

Population: 3.2 million

LRT since 2004

* 26.4 kilometres of track

* In 2007, 9.1 million people rode the LRT system compared to 7.9 million in 2005, according to a survey by Metro Transit.

* 27,000 people ride the train on a weekday.

* 80 per cent of people riding the train are car owners.

* 34 per cent of riders make approximately $70,000 a year.

* 49 per cent of weekday riders take the train five days a week.

* 45 per cent of the riders are between 35 and 54 years old.

According to Bob Gibbons, director of customer services at Metro Transit, the light rail system in Minneapolis cost $715.3 million to build.

Operating costs are projected at $24.3 million for 2008. $9.2 million comes from fares, $5.3 million from the state, $5.3 million from the county, $3.7 million from car sales tax and the remaining $800,000 from advertising.

Portland, Ore.

Population: 2 million

MAX LRS

The first light rail system opened in 1985. There is now almost 100 kilometres of track.

* 34 million people rode the light rail system in 2007.

* 104,200 people ride the light rail system on a weekday.

* A two-car light rail vehicle carries 266 people.

Since the 1980s when the rail was first built, there has been more than $6 billion in development within walking distance of the LRT stations.

"Developers like the permanence of a rail when investing millions into a building," said Peggy LaPoint, a transit public information officer.

Calgary

Population: 1.1 million

Rapid bus transit since 2003

Light rail transit since 1981

* 36 stations along 42.1 kilometres of track.

* 270,000 people take the Calgary LRT system on a weekday.

* Ridership on the LRT has doubled in the past 10 years.

According to Rob Collins, spokesperson for Calgary Transit, more than 90 million people used the Calgary public transit system last year.

The rapid bus system was a cheaper way to boost transit in the city, but Calgary is replacing the buses with light rail service as it receives the funding for it.

Ottawa

Population: 1.2 million

Transitway rapid bus transit

* 240,000 people ride the Transit bus system on a weekday.

* 175 buses run per hour.

* During peak hours, as many as 10,000 people will ride the bus.

* 95.6 million people used the public transit system in Ottawa last year.

Ottawa has eight kilometres of light rail track and plans to expand, said Vincent Patterson, manager of performance at OC Transpo, which runs the transit system.

http://thespec.com/article/355158

[SteelTown]

Ohh I'm so excited to check out the open house, I'll be going to both. Though I've never been to the School Board before so that will be tricky. I like how they are not wasting any time on this.

[DHLawrence]

It's happening a lot quicker than ours is in Waterloo Region--we're being environmentally assessed to death because it's connecting distinct urban areas, not running within one urban area.

[raisethehammer]

plus, keep in mind the new EA act in Ontario is being changed now to allow transit projects to fly through the process.
If Waterloo was starting today you'd be finished in no time.
Hamilton is one of the first, or perhaps the first, major transit project being developed under these new EA rules.

[DC83]

^^ That's the best thing that could happen. What does the leglislation say? 6 months MAX for Environmental Assesments, right? So if LRT/BRT decision date is June 25, does that mean the EA would begin right away?

[block43]

The fast track EA for transit isn't quite approved yet. It is still open for comment to May 12th. http://www.ebr.gov.on.ca/ERS-WEB-External/displaynoticecontent.do?noticeId=MTAyNzQw&statusId=MTUzNTQ4&language=en

[block43]

^^ That's the best thing that could happen. What does the leglislation say? 6 months MAX for Environmental Assesments, right? So if LRT/BRT decision date is June 25, does that mean the EA would begin right away?


The legislation proposes that you have to complete your EA within 6 months from the time the notice of commencement is filed. The City would have to initiate the EA before this time frame is to be followed. There is also a limited amount of time that the Ministry has to review the EA if an appeal is recieved. I think it is about a month.

[raisethehammer]

I've been told that this will all happen quite quickly since the provincial money is available and metrolinx is looking for high quality projects to promote before the next provincial budget.

[DC83]

The legislation proposes that you have to complete your EA within 6 months from the time the notice of commencement is filed. The City would have to initiate the EA before this time frame is to be followed. There is also a limited amount of time that the Ministry has to review the EA if an appeal is recieved. I think it is about a month.

Thanks for the clarification!

I don't anticipate any delays with an EA for this anyway... it's going through an already existing urban area. Can't Wait!

And ya, with the amount of money Dalton & his Liberals have been pumping into (this part) of the province, there's no doubt they'll be re-elected. Maybe Flaherty should save his rediculousness until he actually has a chance!

[go_leafs_go02]

so hypothetically, when could we see construction begin on either LRT or BRT, based on what the city decides.

I really feel LRT will happen (almost positive on the B-Line), I'm surprised at the amount of media publicity about it with the spec, and the blog and the responses in there. I'm not sure however, how many are like in this forum responding there, but seems like most people are in favour of it.

[raisethehammer]

I'm attending a private meeting re: LRT next week at 'city hall'. with some of the planners, project manager etc....
I'll give an update if possible after that.

[Jon Dalton]

Ferguson writes back: "I agree public transit is important to Hamilton and my support of many enhancements in HSR service demonstrates that. However it must co-exist with the motoring pubic. To shut Main street down to two lanes for motorist is not practical or sustainable."

[HAMRetrofit]

My prediction is the B-line construction of LRT will start in spring 2009.

I could really see the ball rolling fast on these transit projects in the next year, especially with gas prices expected to hit $1.50 by the end of summer.

:hell:post 666:hell:

[HAMRetrofit]

it must co-exist with the motoring pubic. To shut Main street down to two lanes for motorist is not practical or sustainable."

I think his motoring public is going to have great difficulty when gas prices hit a buck fifty by the end of summer. We are already at $1.20.

I think people in his ward are going to POed when there is not economical and efficient way for them to get to work in the morning.

[Gurnett71]

Ferguson writes back: "I agree public transit is important to Hamilton and my support of many enhancements in HSR service demonstrates that. However it must co-exist with the motoring pubic. To shut Main street down to two lanes for motorist is not practical or sustainable."

Tool. Not sustainable?? Ridiculous. How is catering to the motoring public sustainable? This project could make or break the Hammer for the next decade or longer. Choose wisely, or face the wrath of taxpayers.:hell:

[Jon Dalton]

"I agree that public transit is important to Hamilton, and as such its level of mediocrity must match that of other city initiatives"

[Jon Dalton]

I think his motoring public is going to have great difficulty when gas prices hit a buck fifty by the end of summer. We are already at $1.20.

I think people in his ward are going to POed when there is not economical and efficient way for them to get to work in the morning.

They will be PO'd, lets hope they will direct their anger more appropriately towards the lack of alternatives rather than continuing to curse the government, oil companies, gas station clerks and Lloyd Ferguson for not trying harder to fight rapid transit.

[go_leafs_go02]

Well. Hopefully this LRT project takes off. I'm leaving Hamilton for the summer, to return in September. Going back to London to work. I'm heading out tomorrow, going to Chicago this weekend, and hopefully some nice developments in the HSR are present in September when the next school year begins.