Subway system in Phoenix?

[DowntownDweller]

OK, so I was poking around trying to get some pics of the transit tunnel between the traffic lanes in the Deck Park Tunnel, and I came across this:

http://www.nwlink.com/~pingmon/Phx.htm

http://www.nwlink.com/~pingmon/images/07_PhxUnderground87.jpg
http://www.nwlink.com/~pingmon/images/10_PhxUnderground87.jpg

The tunnel pictured is 21' in diameter, and was constructed under existing structures. As you can see here:

http://www.azdot.gov/ADOT_and/Storm_Water/PDF/System_Maps/9phxmaps/phx14.pdf

it is the "West Tunnel" on the map. I runs all the way from north of the I-10 all the way down to the Salt River. If this was done under existing buildings, why not a similar system of tunnels for subways? The ground isn't particularly difficult to bore through unless you happen to run into some granite near a mountain.

Beats the hell out of light rail wasting traffic lanes of surface street.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Seems to me that despite being underground, keeping a subway system air conditioned in the summertime would be a huge mess.

[DowntownDweller]

Seems to me that despite being underground, keeping a subway system air conditioned in the summertime would be a huge mess.

Geothermal cooling?

6 feet down in the ground the temperature is the same—between 50˚F and 60˚F- the whole year round.

From a room underneath the sidewalk in New York City, stark, white pipes plunge more than 1200 feet into the depths of the earth. There they whisk water to the surface where it regulates the temperature inside a futuristic brick-and-glass building occupied by the Center for Architecture in lower Manhattan.

“Our heating energy is not from Con Edison. It’s coming from beneath the earth’s surface,” says Rick Bell, executive director of the 15,000-square-foot center, which is the home of the New York chapter of the American Institute of Architects.

Bell opens the door to a room underneath LaGuardia place in Manhattan’s Greenwich village to reveal a system of pipes, made from recycled plastic, that emerge from underground and meander about 50 feet through the building. “It supplies us with constant air of about 55 degrees, even on the coldest winter nights and the most sweltering summer afternoons,” he explains. The temperature is well suited for a space regularly visited by large groups of people.

The popularity of geothermal heating and cooling has increased rapidly—even President George W. Bush has a geothermal system at his ranch in Crawford, Texas. In addition, experts are looking towards the technology as a way to provide clean electricity. Although geothermal energy makes up just half of one percent of the total energy consumption in the United States, demand jumped 13 percent from 2001 to 2005, according to the federal Department of Energy. In January, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology released the most extensive report on the geothermal power generation in thirty years.

New York is no exception to the trend. The New York State Energy Research and Development Authority (NYSERDA), which gives money and technical help to builders who use alternative energy sources, reports that 63 geothermal projects have been completed since its aid program began in 1999. Forty-six more projects are in the works.

“The number of applications and installments continues to go up,” said Gregory Lampman, a project manager with the state authority.

But some experts fear high installation costs might scare off potential buyers. Homeowners who use geothermal heat pumps can save 30 to 70 percent on heating and 20 to 50 percent on cooling, according to federal estimates, but installation in a typical home costs about $7,500. The amount of time to recoup the cost is about six to twelve years according to Lampman. Prices for business, schools, and government buildings can be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, depending on ease of drilling and number of wells needed.

That’s why residential geothermal systems need incentives, according to Jeff Tester at MIT and the lead author of the comprehensive study of the systems sponsored by the Department of Energy. In April, 2007 he testified on about the feasibility and cost of geothermal power to the House Committee on Natural Resources.

In New York, NYSERDA paid the $100,000 cost for the wells at the Center for Architecture’s as well as an additional $600,000 for wells at the Brooklyn Children’s Museum. “Going green is expensive, but it is supposed to be better for the environment and less expensive overall,” said Linda Adams, a project manager at Brooklyn’s Children Museum.

In a typical open loop geothermal system, water from a source deep in the ground—such as a well, pond or lake—returns to where it came from after circulating through the building’s temperature-control system. In a closed loop system, like most in New York, a loop of pipe with water or antifreeze simply dips down into the ground and absorbs heat. Such systems are “like water in a spaceship,” said Bell, where the same fluid continually re-circulates.

At the Center for Architecture the water in the closed loop system goes over a heat plate connected to a heat pump transfers the energy into heating or cooling. The change in temperature diffuses throughout the building via ducts.

These somewhat small installations make economic sense in places like New York, but elsewhere in the United States, experts want to harness geothermal energy for power generation. A key finding of the MIT study is that geographic differences play a huge role in determining whether geothermal power is economically feasible.

For example, it’s cheaper to build geothermal power plants in the Western United States than in the Northeast, because in states like California and Nevada, which already have geothermal power plants, it’s relatively easy to find rocks as warm as 400 degrees without having to dig more than 1,000 feet down.

Reaching such necessary temperatures in the Northeast is “technically and economically not feasible.” according to Brian Anderson, an assistant professor of chemical engineering at West Virginia University and a co-author of the MIT study. He estimates it would cost $20 million to dig deep enough in the Northeast to find rock temperatures of 400 degrees, compared to the National Geothermal Collaborative cost estimate of just $1 to $5 million in some parts of the West.

In Manhattan, the Center for Architecture had to dig down 1,260 feet – the length of the empire state building without its antenna – to find rock warm enough to serve as a source of geothermal heating. It took 40 hours over three weeks in August 2003 to dig the two wells. Even though the geology of Greenwich Village is different from other parts of Manhattan, workers were surprised to find bedrock. “The village is mushy and swampy…we were shocked to find bedrock 45 feet down,” says the center’s director Bell

In addition to geology, New York City presents other challenges to installing geothermal systems. “The city is difficult with traffic and permits,” said Leonard Rexrode, president of Aquifer Drilling and Testing, a company that installs geothermal heating systems. “Also, one needs a lot of ground, which is not readily available in New York City,” Buildings tend to take up all the land they sit on, and the logistics of finding suitable space are difficult. Rexrode’s next project is installing geothermal heating in a glass building, not yet constructed, in the middle of Times Square.

Critics of geothermal heating don’t question its effectiveness in reducing energy bills, but they do worry about the unintended consequences of the technology.

“Geothermal heating is accepted as a source of energy, but it is not completely free of impacts on the environment,” said Alper Baba, a professor of geological engineering at Canakkale Onsekiz Mart University in Turkey.

Baba has written extensively about problems with geothermal heating, including contamination of groundwater, ground temperature changes, depletion of groundwater, effects on living organisms, and even earthquakes.

If open loop systems reinject water back into the ground too close to the surface, the temperature difference can change the properties of the groundwater, according to Baba. “Open loop systems can affect the salinity of the groundwater,” agreed Louis Derry, a geologist at Cornell University, adding that “closed loop systems are better.”

But even closed loop systems can cause contamination, according to Baba. The metals in the water may corrode the pipe, causing leaks into the ground. “There are trace elements like iron, manganese, boron, and arsenic in geothermal systems,” he said.

With geothermal power plants, which draw very large volumes of water, there is even some evidence that drilling can trigger earthquakes. An earthquake in Basel, Switzerland on December 8, 2006 was reported to be a result of a change in ground pressure due to a geothermal construction site. The quake measured 3.4 on the Richter scale, a minor earthquake, and was followed by 60 less severe aftershocks.

“Every geothermal system in the world has seismic activity,” said MIT’s Tester, adding they are generally tiny events caused by stress releases in the rock.

“There is some risk of earthquakes from rocks breaking underground and water flowing,” said Anderson, the West Virginia researcher who contributed to the MIT study, but agreed that most quakes are so small that people aren’t able to feel them.

Advocates of the technology generally dismiss these concerns. “There is no indication that individual geothermal systems cause seismic activity,” says John Kelly, the Executive Director of Geoxchange, an organization that promotes geothermal heating. Although the website does encourage people considering open loop systems to consult Environmental officials, Kelly said groundwater contamination is a “light concern” and adds there is “minimal risk” of environmental pollution.

Public awareness, and confidence, will be crucial for geothermal energy to catch on as a major source of energy. At the Center for Architecture, Bell aims to incorporate the subterranean geothermal heating unit as part of a regular exhibit that people can see even from up above ground.

“We want to put a glass cover plate up here” he points to the ceiling above the white pipes, which leads up to the sidewalk. As people walk by they will be able to look down and see the white pipes vanishing deep inside the earth. He also plans to replace the door to the room with glass so the public can view the unit from the inside the center as well.

Already, just outside the door of the geothermal system is a “geothermal gallery” with diagrams and information about the alternative heating and cooling. Bell hopes to educate real estate developers, engineers, architects, financiers and the public about geothermal systems.

“We are trying to prove by operating this space that geothermal can be done efficiently and economically,” said Bell.


edit: Having been an avid rock crawler in my past, I have had numerous occasions to explore abandoned mines way out in the boonies, only accessable by highly modified fourwheel drives. A mere 30' into the mines, and it is COOL.

[PHX31]

Wow, that is a giant storm drain.

Being underground, wouldn't it be cooler automatically?

The boring could turn out pretty difficult, though, there are caliche deposits that are as hard as concrete, and, there are layers of large river cobble from historic/prehistoric Salt River. The river has changed course and size so many times, there are deposits of the old river bed/smooth stones all over. When working on the light rail in Tempe, everytime they dug about 12'-15' deep, they ran into this river cobble layer, which was 5' deep itself.

[DowntownDweller]

Wow, that is a giant storm drain.
There is an even larger 'East' drain too. LOTS of miles of drains of varying diameters, but the East and West are the two big ones.

Being underground, wouldn't it be cooler automatically?
Depends on a lot of things, but for the discussion of this, an emphatic Yes.


The boring could turn out pretty difficult, though, there are caliche deposits that are as hard as concrete, and, there are layers of large river cobble from historic/prehistoric Salt River. The river has changed course and size so many times, there are deposits of the old river bed/smooth stones all over. When working on the light rail in Tempe, everytime they dug about 12'-15' deep, they ran into this river cobble layer, which was 5' deep itself.
Loose soil is more of an issue than running into caliche. The cobble layer, not relevant as the subway runs would be well below that.

[Sekkle]

There's a huge tunnel alongside the 101 in Tempe as well.

I think the soil complexities are the least of the obstacles to building a subway in Phoenix... $$$$$$$$$$$$

[DowntownDweller]

There's a huge tunnel alongside the 101 in Tempe as well.

I think the soil complexities are the least of the obstacles to building a subway in Phoenix... $$$$$$$$$$$$

I'd be curious to know if they even considered it. Of course, they couldn't have run it down central, because that is where the drainage tunnels run. I wouldn't mind seeing a breakdown of $ spent on mile of light rail vs. mile of sticking it underground, bypassing all the time, labor, energy, and engineering required to work around all the surface obstructions and considerations.

[Sekkle]

I've read that subway is about 4x the construction cost of light rail, elevated rail is about 2x (though I just did a quick search and couldn't find anything to back that up). I believe they did consider elevated rail or monorail, but ruled it out because of the cost (and of course the ValTrans proposal for an elevated rail system in the late 80s failed miserably when it came time to vote on an increased sales tax).

I don't think that tunnelling would save a lot of time, labor, energy or engineering and would probably take more of each. I'm all for subways, I just don't think it's realistic to hope for one in this day & age, especially in a relatively spread-out city like Phoenix.

[HX_Guy]

I'm all for subways, I just don't think it's realistic to hope for one in this day & age, especially in a relatively spread-out city like Phoenix.

Didn't they do a brand new subway system in L.A. just in the last few years?

As for the cost, I remember seeing something along the lines of 10X the cost of light rail and elevated 4X as much.
It definitely must be the cost, not the soil. I know we're supposed to have hard soil here which is the reason everyone says basements are not very popular...but apparently it isn't a problem when building a pool? :sly: Also, they had to tunnel through solid granite in places like NYC...I'm not an expect, but I imagine solid granite has to be a bit harder then what he has going on in Phoenix.

[DowntownDweller]

Didn't they do a brand new subway system in L.A. just in the last few years?
I think you are refering to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Gold_Line_%28LACMTA%29

As for the cost, I remember seeing something along the lines of 10X the cost of light rail and elevated 4X as much.
It definitely must be the cost, not the soil.
I'd suspect as much then as well. It still seems like they are spending a boatload moving existing infrastructure out of the way though.

I know we're supposed to have hard soil here which is the reason everyone says basements are not very popular...but apparently it isn't a problem when building a pool? :sly: Also, they had to tunnel through solid granite in places like NYC...I'm not an expect, but I imagine solid granite has to be a bit harder then what he has going on in Phoenix.

Soil conditions and lack of basements are a myth. The reason they don't do basements here is two-fold. Firstly, availability of land makes it unecessary to maximize sqft per house footprint. Secondly, they HAVE to dig down in northern climates due to the requirement of getting below the frost line to prevent frost heave. Not a requirement here.

They just put in some new basement homes one street S. of Thomas Rd., right around 42nd st.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=85016&ie=UTF8&ll=33.478941,-111.990624&spn=0.001195,0.0025&t=h&z=19

The empty lot is now filled with several basement homes.

That being said, I've been planning an addition here for a few years, and I plan on doing a basement under the footprint of the addition like they did on this project over in FQ Story.
http://www.1525westwilletta.com/

[Sekkle]

Didn't they do a brand new subway system in L.A. just in the last few years?


According to Wikipedia, the last subway station opened in LA (on the red line) was in 2000. The original portions were opened in the early 90s. There are plans to extend the subway west along Wilshire Blvd (at a cost of $350M per mile, just to give some point of reference), but as far as I know, nothing definite has been settled.

[HX_Guy]

The basements seem to be getting more popular then, because there is also a new subdivision going up near 75th Ave and Deer Valley Rd where a basement is an option on all the homes.

[DowntownDweller]

The basements seem to be getting more popular then, because there is also a new subdivision going up near 75th Ave and Deer Valley Rd where a basement is an option on all the homes.

My mortgage broker's neighborhood has basements. Somewhere out in Goodyear IIRC. Some contractors I have put bids out to have completely balked at basements stating "You can't do that". I've toured three projects out here which have had basements. One was a new construction and two were additions with the basement portion being under the addition footprint (or part thereof). Various styles of walls (ICFs, cast in place concrete, and block), etc. The one up in Medlock Historic district was by far the most elaborate. 12' ceilings. It was HUGE feeling down there. That project was rediculously priced though with basement, huge addition to garage, and 2nd story on additon to house, plus a complete gut of existing structures.

Here are the building permit specs on it:

RETENTION REQUIRED. NO BUILT 1940
ZONING:.........R1-10HP
HILLSIDE:.......NO
REVIEWER:.......RPE
***UPGRADE EXISTING WATER METER TO 1" METER FOR 48 FIXTURES***

DESCRIPTION OF WORK: 1075 SF ADDITION OF FIRST FLOOR LIVABLE, 571 SF SECOND STORY ADDITION, ADDITION OF 813 SF BASEMENT, 422 SF ADDITION OF GUEST SUITE, 766 SF PATIO, AND RELOCATE EXISTING 227 SF GARAGE STRUCTURE TO EXISTING SINGLE FAMILY RESIDENCE PER APPROVED PLANS.

311 W Georgia. In historic districts, the basement should be heavily encouraged IMHO.

[Vicelord John]

edit: Having been an avid rock crawler in my past, I have had numerous occasions to explore abandoned mines way out in the boonies, only accessable by highly modified fourwheel drives. A mere 30' into the mines, and it is COOL.

Sweet! you ever make your way out to the Sunflower Mine Loop? Some great open shafts there with excellent intact mine mechanisms.

my TJ is on 33's locked f/r and that trail becomes pretty simple.

[DowntownDweller]

Sweet! you ever make your way out to the Sunflower Mine Loop? Some great open shafts there with excellent intact mine mechanisms.

my TJ is on 33's locked f/r and that trail becomes pretty simple.

Only stuff I ever got into out off the Bee Line was some really simple stuff up by 4 peaks. Used to be locked in the front, spooled rear on my XJ. 33s, then 35s, then sold. That was Jeep #6 at the time. I'm on #8 or #9 now, but the ZJ and XJ are being kept stock-ish. I have a CJ5 on 33" boggers for a plaything right now, but it is open F&R.

[PhxSprawler]

Being underground, wouldn't it be cooler automatically?


Try riding the subway in Rome when it is only 75 outside! It is much warmer with all the people packed in a small tube, regardless of how far underground it goes.

Granted, we wear more deodorant than the Italians, but a Phoenix subway wouldn't be used properly if it wasn't cooled somehow.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Try riding the subway in Rome when it is only 75 outside! It is much warmer with all the people packed in a small tube, regardless of how far underground it goes.

Granted, we wear more deodorant than the Italians, but a Phoenix subway wouldn't be used properly if it wasn't cooled somehow.

That, and I'd think the heat would enter through all the entrances to a subway in the summer time, not to mention the ventilation ducts.

[PHX31]

Try riding the subway in Rome when it is only 75 outside! It is much warmer with all the people packed in a small tube, regardless of how far underground it goes.


Actually, I've done that! And you're right, it was pretty warm down there. I think the outside temp was closer to 90 when I was in Rome.

[PHX31]

That, and I'd think the heat would enter through all the entrances to a subway in the summer time, not to mention the ventilation ducts.

Heat rises. ;)

[Vicelord John]

Only stuff I ever got into out off the Bee Line was some really simple stuff up by 4 peaks. Used to be locked in the front, spooled rear on my XJ. 33s, then 35s, then sold. That was Jeep #6 at the time. I'm on #8 or #9 now, but the ZJ and XJ are being kept stock-ish. I have a CJ5 on 33" boggers for a plaything right now, but it is open F&R.

sweet, ever make your way to www.azvirtualjeepclub.com ?

[DowntownDweller]

sweet, ever make your way to www.azvirtualjeepclub.com ?

Long time ago in 2001 when I moved to the valley and it was hosted on Yahoo message boards. I was just getting into it then. A few destroyed vehicles later, I finally gave up the expensive hobby for the forseeable future. Fun, but I've got other priorities for my weekends and $ right now.

[Vicelord John]

cool, just thought it was interesting to see someone here of all places who shares that hobby of mine.

[DowntownDweller]

This was fun, until I had to climb my fat arse out.

http://www.wazny.com/images3/xjdamage/front.jpg

[Vicelord John]

that looks like table mesa... lower terminator?

I don't know since I've never seen it without 3' of water.

[DowntownDweller]

that looks like table mesa... lower terminator?

I don't know since I've never seen it without 3' of water.

Good eye. I've run it probably 100 times, in three different Jeeps. Was trying a stupid line there. I've run it when it was a roaring river, and when there was no water in site. The Aqua Fria was flowing at about 4' on that trip, and we sent a Jeep out on a winch line prior to trying to cross.

[Vicelord John]

The Aqua Fria was flowing at about 4' on that trip, and we sent a Jeep out on a winch line prior to trying to cross.

done that several times. Once it had been running for a week back in December, and it created a steep embankment that we had to figure out how to get down... we sent a winched LJ to knock some dirt down.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSCF0004-2.jpg?t=1207936655


and at Sunflower Mine

http://www.malone-az.com/jeep/2/100_0160.JPG

[PHX31]

oh god, the only thing worse than jeep people talking about the specs on their cars is computer nerds doing the same.

[Vicelord John]

oh god, the only thing worse than jeep people talking about the specs on their cars is computer nerds doing the same.

it's called a hobby. Do you have one you talk about? oh, yeah, specs on skyscrapers and developments. Same thing so why be a dick? :shrug:

[PHX31]

It's called PMs.

But, I was giving you both a hard time, ever heard of it? I thought your name was John Vandercook.

[Vicelord John]

So PM me if you have a problem, if you have such a good time with PMs.

you're a thorn.

[PHX31]

When did the great John Vandercook become so sensitive.

[Vicelord John]

since you started trying to police conversations a couple of weeks ago.

[PHX31]

I didn't try to police shit.

Edit, nm