[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[sdm]

It was explained to me again this week that commercial is renting for 18-21 psf in the existing buildings, which is low, and running at a 10% vacancy, which is ok for churn.

But, new commercial needs to be up around 26 psf to pay for the build. So, we have a gap. You need 40% leased at $26psf (or more) to be able to secure financing.

More I talk to real estate and developer guys about downtown, the more it becomes clear, the issue is demand. More supply can't be built unless there is more higher value demand.

The economy went in the crapper in 2008, the promise of insurance from Bermuda and banks and stuff went away, and the economy is just starting to heat up, maybe.

.

I thought i'd take the time to give you some statistics.

The average rate for downtown Class A properties is $18.43 per square foot NET. This does not include operating costs or taxes, which for A class avearge mid $14.00 per foot. (total rent $33.00)

New construction will require NET rents in the $22-$25 range.

For financing the project will require 70% preleasing to qualify, of which the 70% needs to be longer term leases (10 years). There are other ways to build without this requirement, but those are usually extremely risky and only done in a stronger rental market then we are currently experiencing.

[Empire]

I don't think that people are thinking about converting existing commercial space, such as Founders Square, to residential. On the other hand, the Nova Centre is just in the preliminary planning stage and residential has already been proposed as part of the mix along with commercial space by Joe Ramia.

The problem with having mainly commercial (office) space downtown is that office workers go home after work and in many cities the downtown core is dead at night. Toronto has been successful in attracting condo towers in the downtown core and I feel that it helps to make Toronto a more vibrant city, even at night. Having mixed-use towers is an option that is becoming popular in cities across North America. It is a possibility that might make such developments as the International Place viable, otherwise, such developments might never go ahead.

I like the idea of reducing the commercial tax rate downtown and shifting some of the burden to the suburbs.

I like the idea of mixed use. The problem with Halifax losing commercial space downtown is that we may not get it back for a very long time, if at all. Cities like Toronto and Calgary have many/all the corporate head offices so a company can build/lease an entire building. (encana -Bow) The Radisson hotel completely absorbed a commercial building on Hollis St. and that space hasn't come back. There are a few floors in Founders that may be available soon and Dominion Insurance is vacating 4 floors in Purdy's to go to Burnside. Downtown Halifax does well when the office crowd goes home if they go home and don't stay for dinner etc.

[Waye Mason]

I did read that what was formerly dead down town Toronto between Bay and Young, south of Bloor now has 150,000 people living there. It is a trend to be admired, that is for sure.

[Dmajackson]

^I wonder if that area of T-dot is the same size as similar-size Moncton :P

(rhetorical question btw Moncton is pretty damn large)

[Waye Mason]

^I wonder if that area of T-dot is the same size as similar-size Moncton :P

(rhetorical question btw Moncton is pretty damn large)


Toronto - 3,972.4 people per square km
Moncton - 454.3 per km squared

[sdm]

Centre support below 50%: Poll
An outdoor sports stadium is a bigger need for the region, a survey of HRM residents finds A different poll by Corporate Research Associates in March had convention centre support at 58 per cent


The CityThink survey polled 600 people in HRM from April 13 to 23. It carries a margin of error of four per cent, 19 times out of 20.
Total percentage of people who either disagree or or completely disagree that Halifax needs a new convention centre is 52%

ALY THOMPSON
METRO HALIFAX
Published: May 09, 2011 1:04 a.m.
Last modified: May 09, 2011 7:49 a.m.
Share

A majority of Haligonians say we need a new outdoor sports stadium, a poll reveals.

The same can’t be said for the convention centre.

The CityThink survey, conducted by Marketquest-Omnifacts Research for Metro Halifax and the Greater Halifax Partnership, shows more residents oppose the proposed development of a new downtown convention centre than support it.

Thirty-six per cent of people said they disagree when asked if HRM needs a new, larger, upgraded convention centre, with another 16 per cent completely disagreeing. That compares with 33 per cent who agree and nine per cent who completely agree.

“I’m speculating here, but maybe people see it as more of a business thing. People believe it’s not something that the general public is going to use, like a stadium,” said Craig Wight, senior vice-president of Marketquest-Omnifacts Research.

Fred Morley, executive vice-president of the Greater Halifax Partnership, said support for the proposed centre is reflective of residents’ misunderstanding of the project.

“I don’t think the convention centre and the need for the rejuvenation of the downtown core have connected in people’s head yet,” he said. “The downtown of any city is the showroom of that city. What you see is creating first and lasting impressions.

“This is an opportunity to do that.”

Sixty per cent of residents either agree or completely agree with HRM’s need for an outdoor stadium. Morley said this idea has caught people’s attention because “they can see themselves using it.”

Scott Ferguson, Trade Centre Ltd.’s president and CEO, said Halifax needs the convention centre.

“The convention centre project has been ongoing for a number of years and in my view, there has been a tremendous amount of analysis and research. I’m very optimistic that positive decisions have been made,” he said.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Hogwash...

[CorbeauNoir]

Hogwash...

Anecdotally it sounds about right; most people I know are far more eager for a stadium than a CC, and I work in about as pro-urban development an environment as you can get.

Given the long and exhausting ordeal this thing has gone through I'm thinking it might be time to just move on to Plan B or C. It's unfortunate but I'd rather see SOMEthing on that site that stands a reasonable chance of actually being built rather than an all-or-nothing scenario where the only alternative appears to be a pit in the ground.

[beyeas]

I would love to know exactly what the series of questions was that they used in that poll. If they asked a series of questions about funding either a stadium or the CC, of course it would come out that way! They may as well have asked "Would you rather tax money go to something you will use, or something people from outside NS will use", because that is exactly how most people would see it if you link it. Hell, if asked the question "You can only have one or the other, which do you want" I would probably say the stadium too!

[someone123]

Yep, useless poll.

It's also wrong to think that a majority of the public against means that something shouldn't be built. Not every worthwhile piece of infrastructure is going to benefit every last person, and even if it does the beneficiaries are often oblivious.

[worldlyhaligonian]

I would love to know exactly what the series of questions was that they used in that poll. If they asked a series of questions about funding either a stadium or the CC, of course it would come out that way! They may as well have asked "Would you rather tax money go to something you will use, or something people from outside NS will use", because that is exactly how most people would see it if you link it. Hell, if asked the question "You can only have one or the other, which do you want" I would probably say the stadium too!

Exactly... this isn't a trade off between the stadium and CC, in fact, there is actually funding for CCs and not for professional sports stadiums.

Obviously people are going to want a stadium, but this poll is flawed because it paints the picture that somehow the CC will take something away from a stadium proposal which isn't the case at all.

It would be like pitting the library vs. the stadium, the money is coming from different funds.

[fenwick16]

I would love to know exactly what the series of questions was that they used in that poll. If they asked a series of questions about funding either a stadium or the CC, of course it would come out that way! They may as well have asked "Would you rather tax money go to something you will use, or something people from outside NS will use", because that is exactly how most people would see it if you link it. Hell, if asked the question "You can only have one or the other, which do you want" I would probably say the stadium too!

The question can be seen at this link (http://www.metronews.ca/halifax/local/article/854618--citythink-issue-results)

The question asked was:

Do you completely agree, agree, disagree or completely disagree with the following statements:

HRM needs a new, larger, upgraded Convention Centre?

The results were:

Completely disagree – 16%
Disagree – 36%
Agree – 33%
Completely agree – 9%
Neither agree nor disagree – 3%
Don’t know – 2%

Halifax needs a larger convention centre since the status quo will result in more convention business lost each year and increasing fewer convention visitors.

It shouldn't be a choice of a stadium versus a convention centre. I think of a stadium as a entertainment/leisure project and a convention centre as a business related project (both business and pleasure are important).

[fenwick16]

There is a short story is in the Halifax Metro today that mentions the new convention centre. Here is the story link (http://www.metronews.ca/halifax/local/article/864955--dexter-hopeful-for-trade-centre-shipbuilding-bid) and an excerpt below. Although there isn't much meat to the story, it shows that Premier Dexter is pursuing funding for the convention centre (and ship-building contract).

Dexter hopeful for trade centre, shipbuilding bid
Irving contract could mean 4,000 new jobs over next 30 years Premier likens successful ship-building bid to hosting Olympics

JENNIFER TAPLIN
METRO HALIFAX
Published: May 19, 2011 12:32 a.m.
Last modified: May 19, 2011 12:36 a.m.

There’s hope for the two major business deals pending for Halifax, Premier Darrell Dexter told the Chamber of Commerce yesterday.

Both the convention centre and Irving Shipyards’ bid for a federal shipbuilding contract could be major economic drivers for the city.

Dexter said he’s written to Prime Minister Stephen Harper since the federal election two weeks ago, urging him to write a $47-million cheque for the convention centre.
....

[q12]

Nova Scotia premier looks for federal support

http://www.metronews.ca/halifax/canada/article/871805--nova-scotia-premier-looks-for-federal-support

Published: May 26, 2011 11:48 a.m.
Last modified: May 26, 2011 12:02 p.m.

HALIFAX - Nova Scotia Premier Darrell Dexter is leading a delegation to Ottawa on Monday to try to push several huge projects forward, including Labrador power, a new convention centre for Halifax and the national shipbuilding strategy.

Dexter will be joined by several local business leaders in meetings with newly minted federal ministers.

The premier says now that the federal election is over they want to know how Ottawa will respond to the province's needs and concerns.

Nova Scotia is adamant about being included in a $35 billion ship procurement policy, a move the premier estimates could create thousands of jobs.

Dexter says he is also taking the prime minister at his word that Ottawa will help bring Labrador hydroelectric power online, either through a loan guarantee or some other fiscal plan.

He intends to raise the convention centre issue with Defence Minister Peter MacKay, Nova Scotia's cabinet representative, but he says he'll leave detailed talks to the ministers responsible for infrastructure.

[fenwick16]

Nova Scotia premier looks for federal support

http://www.metronews.ca/halifax/canada/article/871805--nova-scotia-premier-looks-for-federal-support

Published: May 26, 2011 11:48 a.m.
Last modified: May 26, 2011 12:02 p.m.

HALIFAX - Nova Scotia Premier Darrell Dexter is leading a delegation to Ottawa on Monday to try to push several huge projects forward, including Labrador power, a new convention centre for Halifax and the national shipbuilding strategy.

Dexter will be joined by several local business leaders in meetings with newly minted federal ministers.

The premier says now that the federal election is over they want to know how Ottawa will respond to the province's needs and concerns.

Nova Scotia is adamant about being included in a $35 billion ship procurement policy, a move the premier estimates could create thousands of jobs.

Dexter says he is also taking the prime minister at his word that Ottawa will help bring Labrador hydroelectric power online, either through a loan guarantee or some other fiscal plan.

He intends to raise the convention centre issue with Defence Minister Peter MacKay, Nova Scotia's cabinet representative, but he says he'll leave detailed talks to the ministers responsible for infrastructure.

It is good to see that Premier Dexter is trying to push the convention centre forward. Now if he could just get the HST back down to 13% ...

[Haliguy]

No call yet on convention centre cash
Ottawa still thinking about request for funds
By STEPHEN MAHER Ottawa Bureau
Tue, Jun 14 - 4:54 AM


OTTAWA — When Prime Minister Stephen Harper opened his speech Friday to Conservatives from across Canada at a party convention, he pointed to the facility — the recently completed $180-million Ottawa Convention Centre.

"Welcome, everybody, to Ottawa’s beautiful new convention centre," he said. "You know, I have to say this wonderful facility is a great example of what we can accomplish when we’re able to focus on creating jobs, building infrastructure and leaving a legacy for generations to come."

That focus has not been as successful with Halifax’s convention centre. As of Monday, it has been six months since Halifax Regional Municipality and the province announced an agreement to provide funding for a new convention centre in Halifax and asked the federal government to contribute $47 million.

Since then, the federal government has been studying the proposal. It continues to do so, Jay Paxton, a spokesman for Defence Minister Peter MacKay, said Monday.

"Officials at Infrastructure Canada are conducting their due diligence in reviewing this funding request," he said. "It’s important that federal officials take the time to make a proper assessment of the proposed convention centre."

Paxton said the government should have a decision "shortly."

New Democrat MP Robert Chisholm (Dartmouth-Cole Harbour) said Monday that the federal government’s different responses to Ottawa and Halifax are an example of "unequal treatment."

Chisholm said he and the two other Nova Scotia New Democrat MPs — Megan Leslie (Halifax) and Peter Stoffer (Sackville-Eastern Shore) — wrote to Harper last week to express their support for the project.

"We made it clear, just in case there was any confusion on the government’s part, that we support it," Chisholm said. "We support the decision of the two levels of government to put this project forward."

Previously, Leslie had expressed mixed feelings. In December, she wrote to Harper expressing concern about the convention centre and calling for public consultations. A spokesman for Premier Darrell Dexter said a new convention centre in Halifax, like the one in Ottawa, would have a positive impact.

"We agree with the prime minister about the economic contribution of a new convention centre, and have only heard positive comments from federal staff and ministers about the proposed Halifax centre," Shawn Fuller said. "Federal folks are the ones who can explain where it is in their decision-making schedule. They know that time is an issue."

When the city and province asked Ottawa to fund the convention centre, Halifax developer Joe Ramia of Rank Inc. gave government until Jan. 15 to decide. He later extended the deadline to April 15. Provincial Infrastructure Minister Bill Estabrooks said last month that Ramia was considering his options.

"At this stage, he’s asked that we step back for a few weeks," Estabrooks said. "I want to be respectful of Joe Ramia as the developer, and at this time I’m going to allow him a few more weeks of thinking over his alternatives."

( smaher@herald.ca)

[worldlyhaligonian]

Whaaa? Leslie is now randomly in support of this... didn't she write Harper a letter decrying this development???

[Haliguy]

Whaaa? Leslie is now randomly in support of this... didn't she write Harper a letter decrying this development???


I know eh!...I think Chisholm and Stoffer and the fact the provincial NDP are supporters of this project may have brought her around on it.

[MonctonRad]

I know eh!...I think Chisholm and Stoffer and the fact the provincial NDP are supporters of this project may have brought her around on it.

Gee, with all this NDP support for the convention centre, this should put the kiss of death on the whole project! :haha:

[halifaxboyns]

I know eh!...I think Chisholm and Stoffer and the fact the provincial NDP are supporters of this project may have brought her around on it.

I don't recall hearing that hell froze over?
Wow, impressive. Perhaps this might help - or like monctonrad said, kill it all together! =)

[Haliguy]

Gee, with all this NDP support for the convention centre, this should put the kiss of death on the whole project! :haha:


haha yeah yeah..sigh

[beyeas]

Provincial Infrastructure Minister Bill Estabrooks said last month that Ramia was considering his options.
"At this stage, he’s asked that we step back for a few weeks," Estabrooks said. "I want to be respectful of Joe Ramia as the developer, and at this time I’m going to allow him a few more weeks of thinking over his alternatives."

Interesting comment there if one is into reading tea leaves.

[someone123]

Interesting comment there if one is into reading tea leaves.

It will sad if he ends up building whatever he otherwise would have before the government approached him a couple of years ago. The government would effectively be responsible for nothing more than holding back development of those two blocks.

It's really painful reading this from Vancouver. Since I've moved here they've built a subway line, added a temporary stadium, they're putting a roof on the other one, there's a new convention centre, etc. It's all kind of analogous to Halifax except things actually get done. At the end of the day Vancouver doesn't have a lot of advantages like oil money or whatever else (obviously it is larger but all of these projects are scaled appropriately -- the subway line was over $1B and the convention centre came it at over $800M). I think the biggest difference is that it's just more competently run.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Does anybody think Leslie may now be supporting this... knowing that now her support may hurt the project? Or at least that she can't be called out as a non-supporter if it doesn't happen?

[Empire]

Does anybody think Leslie may now be supporting this... knowing that now her support may hurt the project? Or at least that she can't be called out as a non-supporter if it doesn't happen?

It takes special talent to have a negative impact by being supportive.

[worldlyhaligonian]

It takes special talent to have a negative impact by being supportive.

Yes, a very unique talent... The person has to have such outlandish POVs that the only logical thing is to support the opposite of whatever their opinion is.

For example, if someone stated every development downtown should be 3 stories tall, I'm certainly going to question if they suddenly support a 30 story development. :cool:

If I was Harper, I would be wondering why I'm getting a 2 different letters from the same person... with dramatically different POVs...

[worldlyhaligonian]

Oh yeah, and think of the children!

[beyeas]

Part of me thinks that it is purely that, with a larger caucus and with Chisolm now thrown into the local mix, she has been "outvoted" and told that the local NDP MPs are going to support their provincial counterparts.

However, there is another part of me that wonders if she now thinks it is low risk to support this given the hints that Ramia may be dropping this and heading in another direction anyway. Maybe she knows more about that (via the NS NDP caucus) than we do.

Regardless, the apparent 180 doesn't exactly make her look decisive. I wonder how Bousqet will respond to that letter, given that he has previously been kissing her ass in his articles for years.

[worldlyhaligonian]

I just want a yay or nay at this point!

(Credit: trimbleous on Flickr)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3328/5850007314_09b1e20282_b.jpg

(Credit: mamicmedia on Flickr)

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5199/5849625504_5330504a45_b.jpg

[halifaxboyns]

The first picture just proves my point that the graphic that STV came up with is wrong and doesn't factor in the change of grade.

[fenwick16]

This story was in the metronews:

(source: http://www.metronews.ca/halifax/local/article/894574--dexter-to-meet-with-harper)
Dexter to meet with Harper

ALEX BOUTILIER
METRO
Published: June 20, 2011 1:00 a.m.
Last modified: June 20, 2011 1:03 a.m.

Nova Scotia Premier Darrell Dexter will meet with Prime Minister Stephen Harper today.

Dexter will stop in Ottawa on the way back from speaking at the federal NDP convention in Vancouver on Saturday.

He’ll be meeting with Harper on a range of topics, including the Lower Churchill Falls hydroelectric project, immigration and the new regional venture-capital fund with New Brunswick. Dexter’s director of communications, Shawn Fuller, also said the premier intends to thank Harper for his commitment to a merit-based, arms-length shipbuilding-procurement process.
.
.
.
Of course, other projects like the proposed convention centre and the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy contracts are also in intergovernmental limbo.

The June 15 deadline for an agreement on the convention centre project — the third of such deadlines — passed without word from the federal government.
.
.
.

[Empire]

This story was in the metronews:

(source: http://www.metronews.ca/halifax/local/article/894574--dexter-to-meet-with-harper)

It will be a small miracle if we get funding for the Convention Centre. If we do, it will be noted that the Harper Feds gave the NDP one thorough and prolonged public spanking over it!:whip:

[Haliguy]

Convention centre focus of chat with PM
Dexter expects decision on proposed convention centre in ‘near future’ Premier says Harper ‘very relaxed’ in first post-election meeting together
Email
more
Ryan Taplin/Metro, Sean Kilpatrick/THE CANADIAN PRESS

* “We now are able to map out how we’re going to proceed with each one of these projects.” – Premier Darrell Dexter

ALEX BOUTILIER
METRO HALIFAX
Published: June 21, 2011 12:46 a.m.
Last modified: June 21, 2011 6:30 a.m.

Premier Darrel Dexter said he had a constructive meeting with Prime Minister Stephen Harper yesterday — a meeting devoted to reiterating the importance of a number of big-ticket items the province is waiting on for a federal commitment.

Dexter said the conversation ranged from the proposed downtown convention centre, to the National Shipbuilding Pro­cure­ment Strategy, to the Lower Churchill Falls hydroelectric project.

“This was really a forward-looking meeting. We were looking to a number of issues that affect both the province and the federal government,” Dexter told Metro last night.

The proposed convention centre, now five months overdue for an agreement between the three levels of government, figured prominently in their discussions.

“I had the opportunity to reiterate that we have a very patient developer who has been holding on to that property now for some time,” Dexter said, “and that it was really incumbent upon us to be in a position to give him a final answer on this project in the very near future.”

Dexter said he came away with the impression that the project will have a decision in the “fairly near future.”

“We cannot expect the developer to continue to absorb the cost of holding that property for very much longer,” said Dexter.

“The prime minister certainly understood that, and as I said, I can’t speak to directly to what the prime minister said to me … but I certainly got the impression that he very much understood what the position of the province and the developer was.”

More about Nova Scotia Politics

[halifaxboyns]

Some days I wish Halifax could be like this...

Saint John Convention Centre to get facelift
CBC News Posted: Jun 30, 2011 2:07 PM AT Last Updated: Jun 30, 2011 2:07 PM

The Saint John Trade and Convention Centre is getting a $10 million facelift in order to compete against the Fredericton Convention Centre and Casino New Brunswick in Moncton.

Local politicians and people in the tourism industry say the city-owned meeting place is stuck in the 1980s, and it doesn't compete with more technologically advanced buildings.

Rick Schmidt, of Conventional Wisdom Corp. in Florida, helped re-design the building over the last six years.

"When this was built 30 years ago, there were fairly simple needs and since that time, technology has shifted and the educational requirements for meetings have changed," Schmidt said Thursday.

"Technology has become more personal to where we have more horsepower in our Smartphones than launched the space shuttle and everyone needs their connectivity."

Schmidt said the building represents the city, and there will also be aesthetic changes made to make it more attractive.

"This is all about hospitality. You're inviting someone into your living room and putting on a good party for them and that has to reflect the values of the community as well as be a commercially viable entity," he said.

The convention and trade business brings $10 million to the community each year, Schmidt said.

The new design is ready to go to tender, he said, and once it is awarded, construction could start within 90 days and be complete in four months.

[halifaxboyns]

A very interesting letter in the opinion section of the CH. I posted it here because she makes a great point about the convention centre.

Sunday shopping wrangling was a lesson in how to impede progress

By VALERIE PAYN
Sun, Jul 3 - 4:54 AM
It has been nearly five years since Sunday shopping became a reality in Nova Scotia and I am happy to report that the world has not come to an end.

The removal of the regulations that prevented most, but not all retailers, from serving their customers on specified days of the year, and most famously on Sunday, was a long-fought battle for the chamber of commerce and a number of other organizations. The chamber is often credited with the victory of Sunday shopping, and while we are happy to accept the credit, we were simply the last man standing at the end of a long battle.

The long debate that led up to the October 2006 repeal of The Retail Business Uniform Closing Day Act was punctuated by predictions of societal collapse, family breakdown, and general lawlessness. When would we rest? How could we spend time with our families? What about the employees who would be forced to work seven days a week?

Now, years later, it seems the only fallout from having the ability to shop on Sunday is recent reports from grocery stores that Sunday has become their busiest day. Given that per capita expenditure (adjusted for inflation) has not increased, it appears also that the opportunity to shop an extra day has not driven people to purchase what they don’t need any more than they did before. They can just do it at a time that is more convenient for them.

This only further proves that the real issue may never have really been about Sunday shopping, but rather about the irrational fear of change and an unhealthy habit of deferring to those who object to change. We often hear that not listening to the concerns of all groups who wish to express them is "undemocratic." I would submit that allowing the opinions of a small minority to trump the wishes of the majority is the real crisis in our democracy.

Downtown development, a new convention centre, and a smaller municipal council are all issues that have been supported by the majority, but that have been held up by the fear-mongering delay tactics of a minority special-interest group whose primary weapon is the politeness of the rest of us and, in its most extreme, an apathy brought on by sheer exhaustion with the debate.

Let Sunday shopping be a lesson: first, that change is not to be feared, and if done right, will be a good thing. Second, that minority opposition groups, while allowed their say, should not be allowed to use our preference for fairness to get their way over the wishes of the majority.

Valerie Payn is president and CEO, Halifax Chamber of Commerce.

[Jstaleness]

I agree with that.

[someone123]

People in the Maritimes are way more opposed to change than people in other parts of Canada. I think it's a real problem that has held the region back.

Part of the issue is that the people who do want growth and change simply leave, so the region is left with a disproportionate number of naysayers happily nestled in whatever rut they carved out for themselves 30 years ago.

When it comes to the convention centre specifically I'm not terribly optimistic.

[resetcbu1]

I tought we were supposed to hear an answear soon about this???? kinda givin' up on this one , just seems like another lost opertunity for halifax....:(

[fenwick16]

This story was posted on March 23, 2011. If such a strong case for the convention centre was presented then why has there been no movement on it (that we know of)?

I think the Tories should be asked to explain their position and why they are delaying funding. There entire convention centre process has been an extremely political affair from both a provincial and federal perspective.

Federal election to freeze Atlantic projects: MacKay
Election would delay financing of Lower Churchill project
The Canadian Press Posted: Mar 23, 2011 10:18 AM AT Last Updated: Mar 23, 2011 10:18 AM AT Back to accessibility links
Supporting Story ContentStory Sharing ToolsShare with Add This Print this story E-mail this story End of Supporting Story ContentBack to accessibility links Beginning of Story ContentDefence Minister Peter MacKay is warning a federal election will put key decisions on Atlantic Canadian megaprojects "on pause."

MacKay told a business audience in Halifax Wednesday morning that in particular a request for federal funding to assist with construction of a $159-million convention centre in Halifax won't take place if the government falls this week.

MacKay said a very strong case has been made to Ottawa to assist with $47 million for the convention centre.

Last week, the province said it was hoping for a decision prior to an election, and Nova Scotia's minister of transportation predicted a federal decision was imminent.

MacKay says the convention centre and other projects that are key to the region's economy are going to be affected by the timing of a federal election.

He says any commitment to assist with the financing of a subsea cable to carry electricity from Labrador's Lower Churchill Falls hydroelectricity project to Nova Scotia would also be further delayed.

[hfxtradesman]

In the next couple of days we will have an answer on this project.

[fenwick16]

In the next couple of days we will have an answer on this project.

From the federal government or from Rank Inc.?

Thanks for the information.

[hoser111]

Peter McKay w/Steve Murphy on CTV - saying a decision from the federal government would be forthcoming in days, rather than weeks or months.

[q12]

Peter McKay w/Steve Murphy on CTV - saying a decision from the federal government would be forthcoming in days, rather than weeks or months.

Hallelujah, a decision! I'm hoping that the fact they are telling us this now is that it is going to be a positive decision, and we are gonna see construction start immediately.

http://atlantic.ctv.ca/?video=504014
CTV ATLANTIC
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3511/ug2y.jpg

[fenwick16]

Does anyone else see a resemblance between Steve Murphy and Keith Olbermann? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Olbermann ). They sound quite similar also.

[halifaxboyns]

That was also repeated by Peter McKay on CTV.

[fenwick16]

That was also repeated by Peter McKay on CTV.

That is the video clip that we were referring to - the CTV video clip between Steve Murphy and Peter MacKay.

[sdm]

Proposed convention centre cost to rise: Source

It’s unknown how much three levels of government are now being asked to give N.S., HRM previously agreed to kick in $56M each With the original price of $159 million, the feds were asked to contribute $47 million.

ALEX BOUTILIER
METRO HALIFAX
Published: July 21, 2011 1:43 a.m.
Last modified: July 21, 2011 7:54 a.m.

The cost of the proposed downtown convention centre is going up.

Metro Halifax has learned the province has received updated costs for the project, previously estimated at $159 million.

How far north the price tag has crept isn’t known, but it could be in the millions.

The governing NDP is neither confirming nor denying it has the new numbers.

“I’ve got nothing to report,” Shawn Fuller, Premier Darrell Dexter’s director of communications, said yesterday.

“We don’t have public discussions on ongoing negotiations.”

Developer Joe Ramia guaranteed the $159-million cost until Jan. 15. It was hoped the federal, provincial and municipal governments could arrive at a cost-sharing agreement for the controversial project by then.

When that deadline came and went, Ramia agreed to extend the guarantee until April 15.

Ramia told Metro on April 19 that he was re-costing the project.

“We’ve got contractors and stuff like that, that are working on it,” he said then. “They have to come back and say, ‘Look, here’s the price we gave you and ... here’s the price today.’”

He declined comment on the matter yesterday.

Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal spokeswoman Cathy MacIsaac also refused to comment.

MacIsaac couldn’t say if any new numbers had been forwarded to the federal and municipal governments.

If they have been, it’s news to Defence Minister Peter MacKay.

“I haven’t seen any new numbers from the developer,” he said yesterday.

“(But) I’ll put it this way: We’re down to the short strokes.”


http://www.metronews.ca/halifax/local/article/922654--proposed-convention-centre-cost-to-rise-source

[hfxtradesman]

Total overall price increase of about 4points on the CC. Your guess how much is good as mine.

[fenwick16]

There was an interesting article/blog posted by Rick Howe today regarding the convention centre. He makes a good point; a price increase would require another vote by HRM Council (and possibly by the provincial government). Hopefully this won't become a self destructing scenario - price increase, political delay, price increase, political delay ...


source: by Rick Howe in Halifax News Net, http://www.halifaxnewsnet.ca/Blog-Article/b/20353/Ricks-Rants-Friday-July-22nd2011
If there is indeed an increased cost for the convention centre, and I have no doubt Boutilier's sources are bang on, it would require another vote by city council on the deal. The city and the province are already in for $56 million apiece. But faced with a public already somewhat skeptical about investing taxpayers money in such a project, and with a municipal election just over a year away, there's no guarantee council would approve the extra cash. Estabrooks as well wasn't sure he'd be able to convince Finance Minister Graham Steele to increase the province's share if it became necessary because of Nova Scotia's sorry financial state. What will make this all the more interesting would be a favourable decision from Ottawa on its requested $46 million contribution. Defence Minister Peter MacKay says a decision's likely within days. Should the feds get on board, the province and the city would face a dilema if indeed the cost of the convention centre is more than first estimated. Never a dull moment. Stay tuned.

I can understand that a slight increase may be required (the delay is approaching one year now, and there has been some minor inflation). However, a large price increase would be difficult to justify. With the global economy still in the doldrums, inflation for materials hasn't been significant in the past year. The main contractor and subcontractors shouldn't expect significant increases for labour either (if they want the work). It would bother me if Rank Inc waits for the federal approval and then tries to impose a significant price increase for the Nova Centre - that would appear to be opportunistic.

[someone123]

If Rank didn't increase the price according to inflation the deal would effectively get better and better for the three levels of government. An increase at about inflation would cause costs to remain about the same in terms of ability to pay (actually, it is slightly better than that since the HRM and Canada have a growing population).

My guess is that this is lost on most people.

[fenwick16]

If Rank didn't increase the price according to inflation the deal would effectively get better and better for the three levels of government. An increase at about inflation would cause costs to remain about the same in terms of ability to pay (actually, it is slightly better than that since the HRM and Canada have a growing population).

My guess is that this is lost on most people.

However, it shouldn't be an automatic increase. Any increase should be directly related to inflationary pressure on the proposed Nova Centre. The federal government is running a large deficit, as is the provincial government (in spite of the recent numbers, there is forecast to be a provincial deficit in the coming year). The municipality is trying to reign in its costs. So I can't agree that there is an increased ability to pay from the 3 levels of government.

In any case, the cost should be based on the cost to build the Nova Centre and not on an increased ability for the 3 levels of government to pay. If that is Rank Inc's logic for increasing the price then that is just an opportunistic price increase.

[someone123]

AllNS published an article tonight entitled "Centre Go Ahead Likely", but it didn't contain any speculation about the likelihood of approval.

Based on all the other similar projects that have been funded I would imagine that it will be approved. I also think that Rank will manage to work things out to take advantage of the huge amount of government money on the table. The chances that they would walk away seem extremely small, and it is in their interest to make it look like this is a marginal project and that the government is getting a good deal.

I really hope that a couple of major projects start soon downtown and that the navel gazing dies down a little bit. Of course, this is Halifax we're talking about, so even if there were a huge building boom there'd be some kind of complaining.

[fenwick16]

Hopefully it will get the HRM and provincial re-approval quickly (if there is a price increase) and Rank Inc will have shovels in the ground within a couple of months; considering that they have to excavate from 50 - 70 feet (depending on the site location), they could be excavating while architectural/engineering plans are being worked on. (I believe the excavation could be conducted during the winter?)

From what I recall, I think that they had something like $20 million budgeted for the planning stage.

[beyeas]

An increase at about inflation would cause costs to remain about the same in terms of ability to pay (actually, it is slightly better than that since the HRM and Canada have a growing population).

My guess is that this is lost on most people.

That is an EXCELLENT point. It is a source of constant frustration that neither the press nor the public ever seem to look at both sides of a balance sheet. People only ever seem to see costs.

An even better example is downtown development, where people will see "incentives" as just handing taxpayers money to developers, without thinking through the mammoth increase in property taxes that will flow to the public coffers once some of these parking lots are finally built on!!

[HRM]

An increase at about inflation would cause costs to remain about the same in terms of ability to pay (actually, it is slightly better than that since the HRM and Canada have a growing population).

My guess is that this is lost on most people.

Please explain your rationale for an increase in costs/ability of governments to pay being > an increase in inflation.

[someone123]

Please explain your rationale for an increase in costs/ability of governments to pay being > an increase in inflation.

I didn't give one. :shrug:

[HRM]

I didn't give one. :shrug:

The most common thing people do when they don't want to or can't explain something said/written is to be sarcastic and insert juvenile smileys.

Your comment was not lost. Far from it. It is just incorrect. Very incorrect. Inflation is actually very bad for governments in that people/businesses spend less resulting in lower HST revenues for provincial and federal governments. When inputs become more expensive one of the very first things to go are jobs, resulting in lower income taxes for both provincial and federal governments. So this leaves both levels of governments with less to spend. populations can grow but if there are no jobs for the masses then no tax revenue.

Why do you think interest rates go up when inflation becomes a problem? So inflation does not lead to a recession which would result in lower spending and ultimately lower gov revenues.

Inflation is now starting to be a concern in Canada (NS actually has the highest inflation rate in the country). So why would you think inflation would provide a benefit to governments but also think it would not affect the cost of a $500M project.

Plus an increase in HRM's population in great part is due to migration from other areas of the province so there is no relationship between intraprovincial migration and provincial tax revenue. The city does win however with increased property tax revenue.

And FYI. It is not "the HRM" anymore than it is the Montreal, the New York or the Vancouver. it is simply HRM.

And please no more juvenile retorts and smiley faces. Make statements. Defend them if challenged. But please refrain from Smiley faces. If challenged would you draw a smiley face and hold it up to the committee you are defending a dissertation in front of?

[fenwick16]

I also write "the HRM" for "the Halifax Regional Municipality". It just sounds right.

[Empire]

Is it "GTA" or "the GTA"?

[q12]

And FYI. It is not "the HRM" anymore than it is the Montreal, the New York or the Vancouver. it is simply HRM.

And please no more juvenile retorts and smiley faces. Make statements. Defend them if challenged. But please refrain from Smiley faces. If challenged would you draw a smiley face and hold it up to the committee you are defending a dissertation in front of?
:previous::tantrum::rant:

Woah, take a chill pill. I hate "The HRM" or "HRM" it should be just Halifax anyways. And who cares what you think when you sound like an a$$.

[fenwick16]

Is it "GTA" or "the GTA"?

I believe that was a rhetorical question, but just in case it wasn't, I will answer - it is "the GTA" for "the Greater Toronto Area" :D

[haligonia]

:previous::tantrum::rant:

Woah, take a chill pill. I hate "The HRM" or "HRM" it should be just Halifax anyways. And who cares what you think when you sound like an a$$.

:tup: .

[resetcbu1]

The most common thing people do when they don't want to or can't explain something said/written is to be sarcastic and insert juvenile smileys.

Your comment was not lost. Far from it. It is just incorrect. Very incorrect. Inflation is actually very bad for governments in that people/businesses spend less resulting in lower HST revenues for provincial and federal governments. When inputs become more expensive one of the very first things to go are jobs, resulting in lower income taxes for both provincial and federal governments. So this leaves both levels of governments with less to spend. populations can grow but if there are no jobs for the masses then no tax revenue.

Why do you think interest rates go up when inflation becomes a problem? So inflation does not lead to a recession which would result in lower spending and ultimately lower gov revenues.

Inflation is now starting to be a concern in Canada (NS actually has the highest inflation rate in the country). So why would you think inflation would provide a benefit to governments but also think it would not affect the cost of a $500M project.

Plus an increase in HRM's population in great part is due to migration from other areas of the province so there is no relationship between intraprovincial migration and provincial tax revenue. The city does win however with increased property tax revenue.

And FYI. It is not "the HRM" anymore than it is the Montreal, the New York or the Vancouver. it is simply HRM.

And please no more juvenile retorts and smiley faces. Make statements. Defend them if challenged. But please refrain from Smiley faces. If challenged would you draw a smiley face and hold it up to the committee you are defending a dissertation in front of?

Hmmmm you would make a great politician by the sounds of it.....Or are you?:haha:

[Empire]

I believe that was a rhetorical question, but just in case it wasn't, I will answer - it is "the GTA" for "the Greater Toronto Area" :D

Thanks for clarifying the rhetoric...............:cool:

[someone123]

The most common thing people do when they don't want to or can't explain something said/written is to be sarcastic and insert juvenile smileys.

The reason for my terse response is that I didn't say what you claimed I said. My point is simply that there's a tendency for government revenues to grow with inflation, since for example revenue streams like property taxes increase automatically with assessments (in practice municipalities rarely seem to cut rates to compensate). I mentioned "inflation" as a shorthand for "inflation averaged across the entire economy".

On balance inflation can be good or bad for a particular government, but it is wrong to claim to know a priori that charging 102% of a price in 2011 is "more expensive" for a government than 100% in 2009. This is what the media are doing when they talk in terms of price hikes.

Inflation is actually very bad for governments in that people/businesses spend less resulting in lower HST revenues for provincial and federal governments.

Plenty of healthy, growing economies experience inflation, ideally moderate inflation in the 1-3% range. This is what central banks try to encourage with interest rates. Your comment is easy to prove false -- in NS there have very likely been periods of simultaneous inflation and HST growth.

And FYI. It is not "the HRM" anymore than it is the Montreal, the New York or the Vancouver. it is simply HRM.

K.

And please no more juvenile retorts and smiley faces. Make statements. Defend them if challenged. But please refrain from Smiley faces. If challenged would you draw a smiley face and hold it up to the committee you are defending a dissertation in front of?

What a bizarre question! This isn't a defense, it's a post on an internet forum.

:sly:

[beyeas]

The reason for my terse response is that I didn't say what you claimed I said. My point is simply that there's a tendency for government revenues to grow with inflation, since for example revenue streams like property taxes increase automatically with assessments (in practice municipalities rarely seem to cut rates to compensate). I mentioned "inflation" as a shorthand for "inflation averaged across the entire economy".

On balance inflation can be good or bad for a particular government, but it is wrong to claim to know a priori that charging 102% of a price in 2011 is "more expensive" for a government than 100% in 2009. This is what the media are doing when they talk in terms of price hikes.



:tup:

That is certainly how I interpreted your comment... hence why I had added that I wished that the press examined both sides of a ledger sheet (costs AND revenue). HRM clearly read into your statement something that they wanted to read into it.

[beyeas]

The most common thing people do when they don't want to or can't explain something said/written is to be sarcastic and insert juvenile smileys.

Your comment was not lost. Far from it. It is just incorrect. Very incorrect. Inflation is actually very bad for governments in that people/businesses spend less resulting in lower HST revenues for provincial and federal governments. When inputs become more expensive one of the very first things to go are jobs, resulting in lower income taxes for both provincial and federal governments. So this leaves both levels of governments with less to spend. populations can grow but if there are no jobs for the masses then no tax revenue.

Why do you think interest rates go up when inflation becomes a problem? So inflation does not lead to a recession which would result in lower spending and ultimately lower gov revenues.

Inflation is now starting to be a concern in Canada (NS actually has the highest inflation rate in the country). So why would you think inflation would provide a benefit to governments but also think it would not affect the cost of a $500M project.

Plus an increase in HRM's population in great part is due to migration from other areas of the province so there is no relationship between intraprovincial migration and provincial tax revenue. The city does win however with increased property tax revenue.

And FYI. It is not "the HRM" anymore than it is the Montreal, the New York or the Vancouver. it is simply HRM.

And please no more juvenile retorts and smiley faces. Make statements. Defend them if challenged. But please refrain from Smiley faces. If challenged would you draw a smiley face and hold it up to the committee you are defending a dissertation in front of?


PS: Making a snotty comment about "And FYI. It is not the HRM..." etc is equally as "juvenile" as you claim the smiley faces are, but with the addition of being a hell of a lot of catty.

[halifaxboyns]

Why can't we all just get along? Seriously folks...calm down.
Yes, the technical title for the City is HRM - that's what's on the logo, but who cares. Some of us call Toronto 'the City of Toronto'. We all speak and write differently.
Let's just stick to the discussion and ensure that when we post, we are clear on why we say what we do and be prepared to defend it in a polite discussion.

[someone123]

Why can't we all just get along? Seriously folks...calm down.
Yes, the technical title for the City is HRM - that's what's on the logo, but who cares. Some of us call Toronto 'the City of Toronto'. We all speak and write differently.
Let's just stick to the discussion and ensure that when we post, we are clear on why we say what we do and be prepared to defend it in a polite discussion.

Sorry, but HRM's rant was way out of line. This isn't a case of "why can't we all just get along". I am always happy to clarify what I post. Sometimes I'm wrong or just not specific enough, usually because I'm too busy to explain things in detail (everybody does this, and often what seems clear to one person isn't clear to somebody else or is misunderstood because we think in different terms). That's not a good justification for HRM using personal insults as he did when he called me juvenile.

In any case, looking forward to news about this. Hopefully we'll hear back in the next few days.

[q12]

Peter McKay w/Steve Murphy on CTV - saying a decision from the federal government would be forthcoming in days, rather than weeks or months.

This was a week ago....

[Wishblade]

This was a week ago....

I guess the key word is weeks and not week. :rolleyes:

I really expected to hear an answer on this by weeks end. It's a pretty big announcement so does anybody know if Harper or one of his delegates will come to Halifax to make the announcement, or will it be announced from Ottawa?

[Haliguy]

I guess the key word is weeks and not week. :rolleyes:

I really expected to hear an answer on this by weeks end. It's a pretty big announcement so does anybody know if Harper or one of his delegates will come to Halifax to make the announcement, or will it be announced from Ottawa?


My thinking is that they will not make a high profiled announcment on this.

[halifaxboyns]

I guess the key word is weeks and not week. :rolleyes:

I really expected to hear an answer on this by weeks end. It's a pretty big announcement so does anybody know if Harper or one of his delegates will come to Halifax to make the announcement, or will it be announced from Ottawa?

Someone noted in the Stadium thread that an announcement around August 2nd was coming for the stadium and may also include Nova Centre? Perhaps I mis-read that.

[RyeJay]

Someone noted in the Stadium thread that an announcement around August 2nd was coming for the stadium and may also include Nova Centre? Perhaps I mis-read that.

Aug 2nd, eh? So if the U.S. defaults...

[Wishblade]

Are there any rumblings on this at all yet? I thought we might have heard something yesterday. Im just getting pretty impatient with this one...

[JustinMacD]

Are there any rumblings on this at all yet? I thought we might have heard something yesterday. Im just getting pretty impatient with this one...

The massive hole in the ground is an embarrassment to the city.

[sdm]

The massive hole in the ground is an embarrassment to the city.

They can always move on to developing plan "b" and get on with it.

[someone123]

They can always move on to developing plan "b" and get on with it.

I don't think any developer would move on with plan "B" while there is still the prospect of millions of dollars of government funding.

This is actually a pretty good example of how the government can slow down development in the core by trying to help. If the development does not move forward than all of this intervention will have simply hurt. Of course, as far as I know, it's still possible that this development will move forward.

[Wishblade]

Feds non-committal on Halifax convention centre
CBC News Posted: Aug 4, 2011 12:38 PM AT

Proponents of a new convention centre in Halifax are not getting a commitment of support from Tony Clement, president of Canada's Treasury Board.

Clement wouldn't make any funding promises while on a visit to Halifax on Thursday.

He said the Harper government would wait to hear from municipal and provincial officials.

"I'm hoping that we can make a decision that is the right decision," he said. "When he have all the facts and we've considered all of the arguments then we'll make a decision."


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2011/08/04/ns-convention-centre-clement.html

[someone123]

Boilerplate non-announcement and non-story. They'll give an answer when they're ready, unless they're trying to intentionally stall to force the developer to kill the project.

[halifaxboyns]

Boilerplate non-announcement and non-story. They'll give an answer when they're ready, unless they're trying to intentionally stall to force the developer to kill the project.

Agreed - total non-story. I don't think it's the latter.

[beyeas]

What the heck??

He said the Harper government would wait to hear from municipal and provincial officials.

Waiting for WHAT from municipal and provincial officials? I thought this was all supposed to be in federal hands right now??!! I seriously hope this is a mis-quote.

[Waye Mason]

What the heck??



Waiting for WHAT from municipal and provincial officials? I thought this was all supposed to be in federal hands right now??!! I seriously hope this is a mis-quote.

The feds may have asked for clarification or even changes, and are waiting for it, and if the questions or changes are technical, it may take some time.

[fenwick16]

What the heck??



Waiting for WHAT from municipal and provincial officials? I thought this was all supposed to be in federal hands right now??!! I seriously hope this is a mis-quote.

I wonder if it has to do with a price increase for the convention centre? The federal government might be waiting to see if the provincial government and HRM are committed to a price increase, which has been rumoured. The other possibility is that Rank Inc. hasn't guaranteed a new price. I don't think that the federal government would want to commit prior to having a firm price guarantee and assurances that the HRM and Nova Scotia government will cover their percentage of the increase.

[beyeas]

I wonder if it has to do with a price increase for the convention centre? The federal government might be waiting to see if the provincial government and HRM are committed to a price increase, which has been rumoured. The other possibility is that Rank Inc. hasn't guaranteed a new price. I don't think that the federal government would want to commit prior to having a firm price guarantee and assurances that the HRM and Nova Scotia government will cover their percentage of the increase.

Bingo. I bet you are right.
Good catch.

[halifaxboyns]

Rae: Convention centre worthwhile
Interim Liberal leader says Ottawa should help finance Halifax project

The federal government should be willing to back a new Halifax convention centre, interim federal Liberal leader Bob Rae said Thursday.

"I do think a federal investment is worthwhile," Rae said after meeting with Liberals in Halifax.

"The revenue that you attract by having a competitive convention centre more than offsets the amount of capital investment that is provided over a period of time."

Rae said conventioneers provide an economic boost because of their spending and in the sales taxes they pay. He said the centres increase tourism, a critical part of the economy.

More of the story at here (http://www.thechronicleherald.ca/Metro/1256819.html).

[someone123]

A discussion over possible price increases involving all three levels of government seems like a positive sign. If the feds weren't interested they probably wouldn't be at the table discussing whether or not they should pay more. This is all very speculative though.

Hopefully they are actually making progress and not just shuffling things around. Intentional and unintentional "busy waiting" type cycles seem very common in government.

[Haliguy]

MacKay: 'We're ready to go' on trade centre
Ball in developer's court on downtown Halifax project, federal minister says
By DAVID JACKSON Provincial Reporter
Mon, Aug 8 - 4:24 PM

Federal cabinet minister Peter MacKay told reporters Monday in Halifax that they'll have to ask developer Joe Ramia about the delay in the decision on a new trade and convention centre for downtown. (CHRISTIAN LAFORCE / Staff)

If people want to know why there’s a delay in the decision on a new Halifax convention centre, ask the developer, Defence Minister Peter MacKay said this afternoon.

“We’re ready to go, and I think you need to get to the source,” MacKay said in Halifax.

MacKay had said July 20 that he expected an announcement within days on the proposed $159-million convention centre project by Rank Inc.

“That was my hope, and at that time, it was within days and what you’ll have to do now is talk to the developer,” said MacKay after speaking to a conference of eastern Canadian and U.S. legislators.

The province is asking Ottawa to contribute $47 million to the project, while the province and city would cover the rest.

The centre would be part of Rank’s $500-million Nova Centre, which would include an office tower, hotel and retail space.

The $159-million price tag was good until mid-April. There have been reports that the price has since gone up by an unspecified amount, but there’s been no public agreement on how any extra cost would be covered.

“Clearly, this is a private sector initiative in concert with the province and the federal government, so there are issues that need to be worked out,” said MacKay, the province’s lone federal cabinet minister.

The minister wouldn’t say that his government has approved funding, but is “ready to make our position known.”

A message for developer Joe Ramia has not yet been returned.

The convention centre proposal has been controversial, with opponents questioning the promised economic benefits and saying the convention business is in decline.

MacKay met with Premier Darrell Dexter on the weekend, and said the two spoke about the convention centre project, a federal loan guarantee for the Lower Churchill hydro project and the possibility of a stadium in the capital.

“Things are going well from my perspective. All of those initiatives will serve our province very well, will serve our region very well,” MacKay said.

“And so I’m encouraged at the status of these projects and these discussions and we should have some good announcements in the fall.”

Halifax regional council is scheduled to resume debate Tuesday on whether to go ahead with phase 2 of a stadium feasibility study. It would cost $275,000, while an initial report cost $100,000.

The study, released last month, says Halifax Regional Municipality could build a 10,000-seat stadium for sports and other events. The proposed facility would accommodate temporary seating doubling the capacity. Cost of the proposed stadium is unknown, though municipal staff have said it could be about $60 million. Phase 2 of the analysis would include cost, design and candidate sites.

MacKay has said publicly that he personally supports the idea of a stadium for the Halifax region, and that federal land at Shannon Park in Dartmouth would be a good site.

MacKay was asked whether he was surprised at council being unsure whether to proceed, despite his support.

“You know what? After the Commonwealth Games experience, nothing surprises me,” he said.

“Think of what $1 billion-plus would be doing for the City of Halifax right now while that construction would have been underway for the next there years.”

In 2007, the city scrapped a bid for the 2014 Commonwealth Games, which included a 20,000-seat stadium, after estimated costs climbed to between $1.5 billion and $2 billion, while Ottawa had committed $400 million.

[halifaxboyns]

MacKay was asked whether he was surprised at council being unsure whether to proceed, despite his support.

“You know what? After the Commonwealth Games experience, nothing surprises me,” he said.

“Think of what $1 billion-plus would be doing for the City of Halifax right now while that construction would have been underway for the next there years.”


What a great jab at the those involved in shutting down the Commonwealth games bid - I like it. The fact was if they had talked and communicated better, I'm sure we could've done it.

Oh well this is good news and interesting that now the ball is back in Joe's hands. Guess we'll see...

[Haliguy]

yeah I thought it was a pretty good jab as well

[fenwick16]

:previous: That is good news and bad news. It sounds like the federal government is planning to support it. But what is the holdup with Rank Inc.? Could Rank Inc. be having difficulties with arranging finances? They have to arrange for an interim loan since they won't receive the federal payment until it is complete and the provincial and HRM contributions are through a yearly lease arrangement. Or are they getting cold feet with the office component?

Just some wild speculation on my part.

[halifaxboyns]

:previous: That is good news and bad news. It sounds like the federal government is planning to support it. But what is the holdup with Rank Inc.? Could Rank Inc. be having difficulties with arranging finances? They have to arrange for an interim loan since they won't receive the federal payment until it is complete and the provincial and HRM contributions are through a yearly lease arrangement. Or are they getting cold feet with the office component?

Just some wild speculation on my part.

I don't think you are off base Fenwick - it could be a number of issues. With today's financial meltdown and the events that lead up to today, there could be issues that have built up in the background that have created problems for Rank.

If it is commercial; it could be getting financing or it could be that some of the people he had letters from committing to take the space - may now be in the situation of having to back out or delay going ahead.

But if I remember back to his presentation, one of the things that I recall was that he said the tower design and project was at a point that he could be flexible with the amount of office/hotel and change it to residential if need be. I would guess that if he did that, he may now have to be put in a situation that the profit margin he would get has reduced?

Time will tell I guess - the ball is squarely back in Rank's court. My only concern is that if this ends up being a profit margin issue and not a getting credit or market issue - that he may screw anyone in the future out of a potential relationship with both the Provincial and Federal Governments. Essentially another 'Commonwealth games' (for a lack of a better term).

[halifaxboyns]

I found this in the Vancouver convention centre thread. I thought I would post it here because it gives some home and comparison to a City that really supports it's convention centre.


Vancouver heading toward record year for convention business
Event next month could put almost $50 million into economy
By SCOTT SIMPSON, Vancouver Sun July 13, 2011

VANCOUVER -- Thanks to a new convention centre and some exceptionally large groups of visitors, Vancouver is heading toward a record year for convention business.

The provincial ministry of jobs, tourism and innovation reported on Wednesday that 413 events have been confirmed this year for the Vancouver Convention Centre, including conferences, trade shows, banquets and meetings. That compares to 350 events in 2010.

Among those events are some particularly massive gatherings. The city in May played host to 10,000 international delegates to the annual conference and exhibition of the Risk and Insurance Management Society.

And a five-day conference next month is expected to double that.

The convention centre and its partners, including Tourism Vancouver and Vancouver hotel operators, are expecting 20,000 delegates for the annual conference of SIGGRAPH, the U.S.-based Special Interest Group on Computer Graphics and Interactive Techniques — a group that includes video game developers.

The convention centre estimates that a delegate spends an average of $485 per convention day on accommodations, meals, transportation and shopping, so SIGGRAPH could pump nearly $50 million into the B.C. economy in just five days.

The last time a Vancouver convention got close to that attendance number, it was an international conference on AIDS in 1997 that drew 15,000 delegates.

“This is the strongest city-wide convention year ever in Vancouver’s history because of the expanded convention centre and because of the awareness around the Olympics,” Dave Gazley, vice-president for meeting and convention sales for Tourism Vancouver, said in a phone interview.

“A lot of these events were booked prior to the economic conditions in the U.S. market. Looking back we’ve probably got more than our fair share of major, large-scale U.S. meetings. With the expansion of our centre we were on the radar for a lot of folks. We’ve been fortunate to get some really good ones.”

Events such as SIGGRAPH don’t happen overnight.

Gazley noted that Tourism Vancouver has been pursuing SIGGRAPH’s annual conference business for two decades, but it was only after the new convention centre opened in 2009, in the lead-up to the Vancouver Winter Olympics, that it became possible to stage an event of this scope in a local, world-class facility.

The new building, which shares a plaza with the original convention centre at the foot of Howe Street in downtown Vancouver, tripled the capacity of the two-piece facility to 43,340 square metres.

“We work very closely with the convention centre, obviously, as the convention and visitor bureau for the city,” Gazley said.

“They do a lot of events that will go directly to the convention centre that we may not be involved with. The ones that we’re very in tune with, and in fact most times take the lead on bringing to Vancouver ­— with the convention centre being a big part of that — are what we refer to as the citywide conventions.

“Those are the major ones, the big groups of folks coming to town, using the convention centre, with lots of people staying in the hotels — they are the ones with the big spend and the big impact for the destination.”

Tourism Vancouver worked through a full-time manager it maintains in Chicago, the home base for SIGGRAPH.

“Their normal rotation is Los Angeles, San Diego and San Francisco, and this is the first time they’ve ever brought this event outside the U.S., Gazley said.

“We work very closely with the hotels at the front end to secure the rooms needed at competitive hotel rates, and with the convention centre and their space.”

Gazley recalled pitching Vancouver to SIGGRAPH back in the 1990s.

“We were always on their radar, but we really jumped out with the expansion of the centre. We talked to them. We put a proposal together. We put a compelling offer on the table.”

The other partner in the pursuit of SIGGRAPH was local members of the organization — which is strongly represented in Metro Vancouver through employees at companies such as Electronic Arts.

It’s a common practice for those making the convention pitch to draw in local people to help support their business case.

“We refer to it as the ‘Be A Host’ program,” Gazley said. “We don’t spend a tonne of money on advertising it. We try to do some very targeted things, specific to industries that are strong in B.C.

“It could be your neighbour, who is a certain type of plumber, a certain type of doctor, or lawyer. All of those groups have annual general meetings, and we try to get them to think about bringing them to Vancouver.”

Claire Smith, vice-president of sales and marketing for Vancouver Convention Centre calls it “finding local champions.

“The exciting thing about SIGGRAPH is that a lot of the hard work and credit is due to a local group of professionals in that field that wanted to showcase Vancouver to their colleagues,” Smith said.

“Working hand in hand with the graphics community here, they played a very active role in helping convince their society they should choose Vancouver.”

As well, Smith said, the main players need to show prospective groups that they’re working in harmony.

“The hotel community, Tourism Vancouver and the convention-centre team have to really work as one so that the client that we are interfacing with sees us as very easy to organize a convention with.

ssimpson@vancouversun.com


Vancouver Convention Centre
Fiscal year: 2010
Economic activity: $215 million
Event revenues: $21 million
Total attendance: 225,000 delegates
Non-B.C. attendance: 128,000 delegate days
Events: 350

Source: Vancouver Convention Centre

© Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun

Read more: link (http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/V...#ixzz1S66MaGq1)

[someone123]

I think ANS also had an article stating that convention attendance or revenues are at record levels in Halifax.

I've been to SIGGRAPH in LA and it is quite the event. People love going despite the fact that they are all quite comfortable communicating electronically -- there's a lot you just can't get unless you visit in person. Vancouver's new convention centre also looks pretty great and will be a great asset to the city. For SIGGRAPH for example it's easy to show off local businesses and universities in a way that would not be possible if the conference were located in LA.

The story in Halifax could be similar. The whole region would benefit because there would be a tier of conferences in the Maritimes that would otherwise simply not be possible. People hate to admit it but in many cases these things either happen in Halifax or they don't happen at all (because of the local population, airport, universities, and so forth). It makes sense for the federal government to build regional facilities in Halifax.

I do not know what Rank is up to exactly but it seems very unlikely that the project would die due to private concerns over office space or hotels. There's too much public money on the table.

[fenwick16]

I do not know what Rank is up to exactly but it seems very unlikely that the project would die due to private concerns over office space or hotels. There's too much public money on the table.

I would tend to agree. They have a lease agreement for the 300,000 square feet (gross sq ft) in the convention centre and hopefully an agreement from the federal government for a $47 million lump sum payment when it is complete. I cannot think of any other project that would give them a better return on their money.

So what is the hold up? Maybe they are just reconsidering the design? Or dickering over the price?

[pblaauw]

A small tangent that just popped into my head. Would the Nova Centre include a link to the series of tunnels that go from the Prince George to the Casino? I haven't heard anything about this, but it seems kind of silly not to connect it, even though would mean extending the tunnel SE-ward.

[fenwick16]

A small tangent that just popped into my head. Would the Nova Centre include a link to the series of tunnels that go from the Prince George to the Casino? I haven't heard anything about this, but it seems kind of silly not to connect it, even though would mean extending the tunnel SE-ward.

It is shown in the feasibility study done in May 2007 - page 43/314 of this pdf document https://conventioncentreinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Feasibility-Study-Vol-1.pdf . This is a big file (about 38 mbytes) so it will take about a minute to download.

[halifaxboyns]

I suspect the hold up is financing in some form. Maybe not over offices specifically, but with the recent hick ups in world markets - they may be having to go through some extra steps to secure a loan?

I would also agree with Fenwick - I would think that Nova Centre would end up connected to the tunnel/pedway system via the Prince George. Although I suspect there might be some internal modification required in the PG to do that.

[halifaxboyns]

Btw - CBC 6 on news had news stories on both the convention centre and the Stadium. Not sure if anyone else did. www.cbc.ca/ns

[fenwick16]

I suspect the hold up is financing in some form. Maybe not over offices specifically, but with the recent hick ups in world markets - they may be having to go through some extra steps to secure a loan?


I am sure the global financial situation has a bearing on this project as you stated.

However, I remembered reading sometime ago that Joe Ramia decided to step back (take a break) from this project a while ago. I was able to find the story on the internet which surprised me since Chronicle Herald stories usually aren't accessible after one week without paying for the story.

The story gave the impression that Joe Ramia just needed a break (wouldn't most people after having to deal with the Save the View group and the 3 levels of government? :) )

NOTE: this is an old story - Here is the story from June 14, 2011 which is almost 2 months ago. (source: http://dev3.thechronicleherald.ca/Metro/1248464.html )
No call yet on convention centre cash
Ottawa still thinking about request for funds
By STEPHEN MAHER Ottawa Bureau
Tue, Jun 14 - 4:54 AM
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When the city and province asked Ottawa to fund the convention centre, Halifax developer Joe Ramia of Rank Inc. gave government until Jan. 15 to decide. He later extended the deadline to April 15. Provincial Infrastructure Minister Bill Estabrooks said last month that Ramia was considering his options.

"At this stage, he’s asked that we step back for a few weeks," Estabrooks said. "I want to be respectful of Joe Ramia as the developer, and at this time I’m going to allow him a few more weeks of thinking over his alternatives."