[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[someone123]

The only problem is we'd be left with another Phil Pacey '6 stories works' building that didn't work and didn't contribute as much tax revenue. Just day dreaming I guess...but I suspect the feds will contribute the money. I don't really think they take the Taxpayers Federation seriously.

A mixed-use development is much better for the downtown.

The Taxpayers' Federation is not to be taken at face value because their mandate is pretty much purely to get the government to spend less money. All they do is say "no, no, no" -- they don't take a step back and look at the merits of government spending in any meaningful way.

[-Harlington-]

I always thought that once the new WTCC is made that they should expande and renovate the existing metro centre but then when i looked at the layout of the ice surface i realized it wouldn't really work to well or cost way to much

[bluenoser]

oops this was a post in the wrong thread...

[CorbeauNoir]

A mixed-use development is much better for the downtown.

I just wish residential use was more thoroughly integrated in it. The last thing downtown needs right now is more office space.

[halifaxboyns]

I just wish residential use was more thoroughly integrated in it. The last thing downtown needs right now is more office space.

Maybe not right now - but at some point it will. Either the economy will come back and with the right investment, inspire growth or there will be a change in policy that pushes office development back to the core. I expect the latter will take way more time than economic conditions to change.

[CorbeauNoir]

Maybe not right now - but at some point it will. Either the economy will come back and with the right investment, inspire growth or there will be a change in policy that pushes office development back to the core. I expect the latter will take way more time than economic conditions to change.

And what if neither happen with regard to the downtown core?

The best incentive to bring businesses downtown is to bring people downtown.

[halifaxboyns]

And what if neither happen with regard to the downtown core?

The best incentive to bring businesses downtown is to bring people downtown.

Yes I agree and I guess I forgot that point in my post - well spotted.

[someone123]

A photo of the Nova Centre site from BlaiseM on flickr:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5248/5340785125_eb0c55fa06_b.jpg
Source (http://www.flickr.com/photos/blaisem/5340785125/sizes/l/)

Looking forward to news about federal funding. If this proceeds it will be huge for the city. The upper lot has been vacant for as long as I can remember.

[halifaxboyns]

I have finally gotten a chance to upload my photo tour of Halifax; I got a shot of this site as it was becoming night - can't wait to see this move forward.

Just to continue my thought (which I thank CorbeauNoir for pointing out the one thing I forgot) - I would agree with him. If office demand in the downtown core is low, then residential development should be the priority but I would be more focused and say that mixed use would be the goal (commercial on the ground floor with resdiential above).

Once the budget issues and economy get on track and HRM has the money; i'd like to see them reduce some of the property taxes in the core for a period of 3 years as a test. I suspect that if it did that as a long term strategy (combined with the suggestion I made earlier of restricting parking in suburban areas for commercial offices); you would see office development return to the core. Granted, with that will have to be better transit.

The other thing you might see is some big box retail start to be attracted either back to the core or to what I call the core 'periphery'. Someone earlier mentioned that they were felt something like a home sense or a winners would do well in downtown once there was more population in the core. I would have to agree with that and I suspect that in the next 5 years once many of the residential projects go forward - we might see it. It will all depend on what affect Nova Centre has on downtown (whether it creates a lot of confidence to build or just a little).

[worldlyhaligonian]

I have finally gotten a chance to upload my photo tour of Halifax; I got a shot of this site as it was becoming night - can't wait to see this move forward.

Just to continue my thought (which I thank CorbeauNoir for pointing out the one thing I forgot) - I would agree with him. If office demand in the downtown core is low, then residential development should be the priority but I would be more focused and say that mixed use would be the goal (commercial on the ground floor with resdiential above).

Once the budget issues and economy get on track and HRM has the money; i'd like to see them reduce some of the property taxes in the core for a period of 3 years as a test. I suspect that if it did that as a long term strategy (combined with the suggestion I made earlier of restricting parking in suburban areas for commercial offices); you would see office development return to the core. Granted, with that will have to be better transit.

The other thing you might see is some big box retail start to be attracted either back to the core or to what I call the core 'periphery'. Someone earlier mentioned that they were felt something like a home sense or a winners would do well in downtown once there was more population in the core. I would have to agree with that and I suspect that in the next 5 years once many of the residential projects go forward - we might see it. It will all depend on what affect Nova Centre has on downtown (whether it creates a lot of confidence to build or just a little).

The Bay should establish a small location downtown with all of their more exclusive lines. Its great that Roots is downtown.

We need a Lacoste store.

[halifaxboyns]

The Bay should establish a small location downtown with all of their more exclusive lines. Its great that Roots is downtown.

We need a Lacoste store.

The Bay, Lacoste - heck I'd even go for a winners at this point. If the average income in Halifax rises, I'd be in favour of a Holt store, but I don't think it will rise to that level for another 20 years.

[hollistreet]

The Bay, Lacoste - heck I'd even go for a winners at this point. If the average income in Halifax rises, I'd be in favour of a Holt store, but I don't think it will rise to that level for another 20 years.

Holt's attempted to come to Halifax back in the mid to late 1990's. They wanted to open on SGR but I heard from another high end SGR merchant that the owners (then) of Mills managed to keep them away. I had an opportunity to have a one on one chat with Harry Rosen about 9 or 10 years ago and asked him if he had ever considered coming to Halifax and he said that they would need the city to have a population in excess of 700,000 to consider it.

[halifaxboyns]

Holt's attempted to come to Halifax back in the mid to late 1990's. They wanted to open on SGR but I heard from another high end SGR merchant that the owners (then) of Mills managed to keep them away. I had an opportunity to have a one on one chat with Harry Rosen about 9 or 10 years ago and asked him if he had ever considered coming to Halifax and he said that they would need the city to have a population in excess of 700,000 to consider it.

That number for Harry Rosen surprises me. I would've thought it be about 600,000; but I guess it's not really an issue (it's only 100K). I suspect Holt may take a run at Halifax again if the economics support it, but whether they would end up on Spring Garden Road is another matter.

Personally, I'd actually like to see them end up somewhere on Barrington Street, I'm just not sure where. If the Province were to let them move into the old Eaton's space (Prince and Barrington) that would be amazing - it would totally change that corner. Plus that way Mills could chill out. :)

[hollistreet]

That number for Harry Rosen surprises me. I would've thought it be about 600,000; but I guess it's not really an issue (it's only 100K). I suspect Holt may take a run at Halifax again if the economics support it, but whether they would end up on Spring Garden Road is another matter.

Personally, I'd actually like to see them end up somewhere on Barrington Street, I'm just not sure where. If the Province were to let them move into the old Eaton's space (Prince and Barrington) that would be amazing - it would totally change that corner. Plus that way Mills could chill out. :)

I can only tell you what Harry himself told me. That was 10 years or so ago and now his son is running the show so maybe the numbers are different.

[Haliguy]

That number for Harry Rosen surprises me. I would've thought it be about 600,000; but I guess it's not really an issue (it's only 100K). I suspect Holt may take a run at Halifax again if the economics support it, but whether they would end up on Spring Garden Road is another matter.

Personally, I'd actually like to see them end up somewhere on Barrington Street, I'm just not sure where. If the Province were to let them move into the old Eaton's space (Prince and Barrington) that would be amazing - it would totally change that corner. Plus that way Mills could chill out. :)


It wouldn't be able to be in the Old Eatons space it's all government offices now.

[halifaxboyns]

It wouldn't be able to be in the Old Eatons space it's all government offices now.

Yup; I know - but you'd be surprised what you can do with the right demand and a lot of money.

They'd only be able to move in if the province moved out; but I'm sure they could convert the space back. But I doubt they'd go there if they saw the street now (I know I wouldn't).

Another spot which might work (depending on how it grows in the next five years) would be Quinpool or potentially Agricola if the interest in redevelopment on that street is as high as I suspect it is.

[Keith P.]

It wouldn't be able to be in the Old Eatons space it's all government offices now.

Govt needs all the revenue it can get so I'm sure 2 floors of TIR bureaucrats could find another home in exchange for some Holt gold. Besides, govt should downsize so they should not need this space.

[sdm]

Convention centre deadline extended

By DAVID JACKSON Provincial Reporter
Wed, Jan 12 - 8:28 PM

The Dexter government says there’s a 90-day extension to the Saturday deadline for a Halifax convention centre deal.

The province and city are waiting for Ottawa’s response to a request for $47 million toward the facility’s $159-million construction and financing cost. That formal request was made just a month ago, after Halifax regional council approved a deal with the province.
Developer Rank Inc. had locked in the price until Saturday, the deadline for signing the contract for the project. Premier Darrell Dexter said Wednesday that the price and other terms are now good for another three months.

“It is to be expected that these deadlines are capable of moving a little bit,” the premier said after an event in Cole Harbour.

“It’s actually a sign that you have parties that want to work together when they are able to say, ‘OK, we’re making considerable progress here, we need more time.’ ”

Rank spokesman Joe Ramia said the deadline has moved but wouldn’t confirm the 90 days.

“I know we’re being flexible with them in trying to finalize this deal. That’s all I can tell you,” Ramia said.

“Right now, we’re holding the price for them.”

The convention centre would be part of a bigger development for the former Halifax Herald property in downtown Halifax that would cost in the range of $500 million in total. It would include a hotel, retail space and office tower.

Ramia said he didn’t know what impact the extension may have on the anticipated dates for the start and completion of construction. The province has said the centre would open in January 2015.

“We haven’t assessed that yet,” Ramia said. “We’re just working with our contractors now, as we speak.”

Dexter said he thinks the province has made a good case to the federal government to make the money available through two infrastructure programs.

“I don’t take anything for granted, but I assume that having the province put forward that program to the federal government, that they will agree to fund it,” he said.

“If there’s anything to be said about this, it’s that negotiations are going very well, that we’re satisfied with the progress that is being made, and we’ve agreed to extend the deadline for completion of the actual contractual arrangements.”

Defence Minister Peter MacKay, the province’s federal political minister, wasn’t available for comment Wednesday, but spokeswoman Andrea MacDonald referred to an opinion piece MacKay submitted to The Chronicle Herald.

“Our government will ensure due diligence is applied to evaluate the business case for the centre, and a final decision will be made in due course,” MacKay wrote.

Halifax Mayor Peter Kelly said he’s not particularly worried about the three-month delay affecting the convention centre decision.

The mayor acknowledged he had heard the developer was going to be flexible with the signing deadline.

Kelly said city hall officials “have had time to analyze the information and move forward with an informed decision, and the province certainly has had time. It’s only fair to allow the federal government to have the same courtesy.”

[beyeas]

The Bay, Lacoste - heck I'd even go for a winners at this point. If the average income in Halifax rises, I'd be in favour of a Holt store, but I don't think it will rise to that level for another 20 years.

I could see J Crew fitting in on SGR... and Kohl's has an urban format store format aimed at downtown condo dweller's that might work well downtown.

[Grav]

Some higher end stores would be great downtown. It would be "big box" but without the "box" part or that tacky "lifestyle" architecture. I still think they should give the Bell Aliant call center in Scotia Square the boot and turn that back into retail space. There is alot more room there than any of the smaller older buildings on Barrington could offer. Maybe convert the old WTCC into retail space too. I think the old WTCC with all of its brick and brass would make a great high end 1970's looking shopping mall. :tup:

[sdm]

Some higher end stores would be great downtown. It would be "big box" but without the "box" part or that tacky "lifestyle" architecture. I still think they should give the Bell Aliant call center in Scotia Square the boot and turn that back into retail space. There is alot more room there than any of the smaller older buildings on Barrington could offer. Maybe convert the old WTCC into retail space too. I think the old WTCC with all of its brick and brass would make a great high end 1970's looking shopping mall. :tup:

Barrington Street has always, in my opinion, been a location that could be done like St Catherines Street in Downtown Montreal.

[worldlyhaligonian]

My question is... where are all the luxury retailers? Halifax can definitely support more of them.

If people are willing to pay the rediculous mark-up on stuff at Mills, they would definitely pay the retail price directly from a Hugo Boss or a Lacoste store downtown.

Relating back to the Nova Centre... it will definitely help retail on Barrington. The death of Barrington and downtown has been primarily due to people (even those who live downtown) going to Bayers Lake and more recently DC.

The opponents of the Nova Centre think that it will ruin the charm and character of Argyle... when I bet it will add alot more revenue volume for these unique restaurants, bars, and clothing stores across all of downtown. People at a convention or trade show will not be willing to go to BL or DC given the time constraints of their visit.

[someone123]

Ste-Catherine in Montreal has a bunch of advantages. It's served by a subway system, there's way more intense development nearby (residential and office), and there's less to cut it off from the rest of the city.

Right now it's hard to attract people to Barrington from other areas and the local population isn't high enough. That is only going to change with United Gulf-style projects with hundreds of new residential units.

[halifaxboyns]

My question is... where are all the luxury retailers? Halifax can definitely support more of them.

If people are willing to pay the rediculous mark-up on stuff at Mills, they would definitely pay the retail price directly from a Hugo Boss or a Lacoste store downtown.

Relating back to the Nova Centre... it will definitely help retail on Barrington. The death of Barrington and downtown has been primarily due to people (even those who live downtown) going to Bayers Lake and more recently DC.

The opponents of the Nova Centre think that it will ruin the charm and character of Argyle... when I bet it will add alot more revenue volume for these unique restaurants, bars, and clothing stores across all of downtown. People at a convention or trade show will not be willing to go to BL or DC given the time constraints of their visit.

Personally, I had thought that if Nova Centre went ahead I'd like to see a high end retailer (or two) setup in the retail space. Having worked in the Aliant call centre for a couple years; of the few people I know still working there I would have to agree, they should be forced out - essentially it went from people stacked on top of each other, to empty. I remember when I walked on this special team that they just threw up into a mezzanine space off the upper Duke entrance. It was crazy - the problem is that for as long as BellAliant is going to pay the rent, they will stay. Plus I doubt that they would make any where near as much money, but that's just a guess.

As I have mentioned before, I would love to see the Eaton's space revert back to a shopping space for something like Holt and I think once a few projects go forward like Roy/Discover and Nova I could really see the desire to locate on Barrington Street. That or if a new commercial corridor were to spring up (like say improvements to Quinpool or Agricola) - I could see them locating there.

[someone123]

As I have mentioned before, I would love to see the Eaton's space revert back to a shopping space for something like Holt and I think once a few projects go forward like Roy/Discover and Nova I could really see the desire to locate on Barrington Street. That or if a new commercial corridor were to spring up (like say improvements to Quinpool or Agricola) - I could see them locating there.

It's a great retail site (Discovery Centre could be as well) and it would be easy to imagine a world where this would be an extremely desirable area. Realistically however my guess is that it will remain an underused provincial building for a long time.

Unfortunately government ownership has been a pretty negative force in downtown Halifax. Many vacant lots are owned by some level of government and efforts to develop are extremely slow and poorly-managed (mentioned in this report (http://www.turnerdrake.com/newsresearch/vanishing-halifax.pdf) by Turner Drake for example).

[halifaxboyns]

It's a great retail site (Discovery Centre could be as well) and it would be easy to imagine a world where this would be an extremely desirable area. Realistically however my guess is that it will remain an underused provincial building for a long time.

Unfortunately government ownership has been a pretty negative force in downtown Halifax. Many vacant lots are owned by some level of government and efforts to develop are extremely slow and poorly-managed (mentioned in this report (http://www.turnerdrake.com/newsresearch/vanishing-halifax.pdf) by Turner Drake for example).

Wow, I was expecting the report to have a lot more in it.
But essentially they are correct - there would've been a lot more development if the City and Province had been more on the ball. At least if the sites were sold; they could've made some money and then taxed any new development.

I get the impression that government is very hesitant to give up ownership; unless they are absolutely sure of getting a return. But to me; we should adopt the more western philosophy - sell it and you will get a return.

[beyeas]

that report is interesting... but the over the top flowery language just makes me laugh. Sounds like it was written by someone who is trying to find an outlet for the MA in 19th century English lit that they did back in the 80s and then never used again until now.

The thing that I don't like about the report is that it doesn't address the question of "what if the by-laws and property tax regime were changed such that it made it less financially viable to build in the suburbs?". The report just assumes that the present rules are all that is possible and accepts as inevitable the fact that the downtown will hollow out to the suburbs. That is true in the current environment, but it misses the fact that what should happen is that the laws should be changed to dis-encourage office development sprawl.

[sdm]

Road money could build convention centre
Last Updated: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 | 7:10 PM AT Comments5Recommend7.
CBC News
An artist's rendering of what the new convenction centre in Halifax would look like. (CBC)
The Nova Scotia government has asked Ottawa to use money from a federal fund normally used to repair roads and bridges around the province to pay for its share of a new convention centre in downtown Halifax.

Federal Transport Minister Chuck Strahl has been asked to re-direct the portion of the Build Canada fund dedicated to Nova Scotia as the federal contribution to the proposed $159-million convention centre.

The deal depends on Ottawa contributing $47 million. That money has not been committed yet.

Transportation and Infrastructure Minister Bill Estabrooks said Wednesday that he sees no reason why the infrastructure funding couldn't be used to help pay for the new convention centre.

"A lot of it has ended up in my department through highways and bridges and various other things. In this case, it would be appropriate from my perspective as minister responsible for the convention centre. This would be a good use of public funds," he said .

"We haven't taken from Peter to rob Paul; that's not the approach here. But these are dollars that we believe the convention centre project could benefit from, and that's our advice."

The city and province have already agreed to put in $56 million each toward the convention centre, which would be built on the former Halifax Herald Ltd. site. The centre would be ready in January 2015.

Estabrooks said the province is still committed to its five-year plan for highway construction, although projects may not happen as quickly if some of the money is used to build the convention centre.

"Perhaps we won't see as quickly as possible when it comes to the five year plan but there are dollars to take care of our highway needs," he said.

There has been no response from the federal government to the proposal.


Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2011/01/19/ns-convention-centre-money.html#ixzz1BWrqAXkx

[DigitalNinja]

Why is CBC using old renders of the center?

[fenwick16]

This is another lopsided, deceitful story by the CBC. The following is a quote directly from the federal government's website describing one purpose of the Building Canada Fund:

(source: http://www.buildingcanada-chantierscanada.gc.ca/plandocs/bg-di/bg-di-info5-eng.html )
Tourism

Building Canada funding in this category will be directed towards the construction or improvement of convention centres or exhibition hall-type facilities that:

* Increase the number of visitors to the community, and the length and quality of stay of those visitors;

* Promote Canada or the region as a leading destination for Canadian and international visitors.

Funding criteria will require that proponents of convention centre or exhibition-hall type projects demonstrate that their projects will have a significant economic and/or regional impact.

If CBC is truly a news organization then they should be providing accurate truthful reports.

PS: I posted this comment on the CBC story comments section so time ago but it seems as though they only post negative comments. What kind of organization is the CBC becoming? It reminds me of the Fox network in the US and how they lopsidedly support the Republicans.

[sdm]

Province Doesn't Speak for Feds on Convention Centre: MacKay
by: alexboutilier January 19, 2011 3:53 PM Metro News

I asked Defence Minister Peter MacKay this afternoon whether or not the province was premature in characterizing the convention centre deal as a "not if, but when" situation.

His response, after he finished laughing and realized I was serious:


“The provincial government does not speak for the federal government when it comes to this file. I’ll put it that way.”

Maybe it's just me, but that does not sound like a yes. But it is also not technically a no. Politics!


Now, because I write predominantly on dead trees, I cannot elaborate too much more on the details of our conversation, or who Minister MacKay met with in Ottawa two weeks ago to discuss the more "granular" details of WTCC2's business case (it was Scott Ferguson, obvs).

But I can say that MacKay was overall optimistic about the project, while shying well away from sounding too optimistic.

He did say, however, that:

“We’re making progress and I should be able to make a decision on this well within the time-line.”

Which strikes me as a touch odd, since the money is not exactly coming from DND, and so one would assume it wouldn't be his decision to make.

Anyway, just doing my part to re-fan the flames of speculation. Check tomorrow's Metro Halifax for the full story tomorrow morning, and Politics as Usual tomorrow afternoon for our full interview.

http://www.metronews.ca/halifax/blog/post/748273--province-doesn-t-speak-for-feds-on-convention-centre-mackay

[halifaxboyns]

I have to say I'm really disappointed in the CBC today. Their reporting has been beyond horrible - I mean first their story on spirit place and now this. Can they not even use the most recent rendering of the proposal? Plus the slant they put on the argument, as Fenwick points out - they seem to have skipped the fact that the fund said - you can use it! I will say this; the actual news broadcast did use the more recent drawing - perhaps someone has been listening?

[Jstaleness]

From cbc.ca/ns

The Nova Scotia government has asked Ottawa to use money from a federal fund normally used to repair roads and bridges around the province to pay for its share of a new convention centre in downtown Halifax.

Federal Transport Minister Chuck Strahl has been asked to re-direct the portion of the Build Canada fund dedicated to Nova Scotia as the federal contribution to the proposed $159-million convention centre.

The deal depends on Ottawa contributing $47 million. That money has not been committed yet.

Transportation and Infrastructure Minister Bill Estabrooks said Wednesday that he sees no reason why the infrastructure funding couldn't be used to help pay for the new convention centre.

"A lot of it has ended up in my department through highways and bridges and various other things. In this case, it would be appropriate from my perspective as minister responsible for the convention centre. This would be a good use of public funds," he said .

"We haven't taken from Peter to rob Paul; that's not the approach here. But these are dollars that we believe the convention centre project could benefit from, and that's our advice."

The city and province have already agreed to put in $56 million each toward the convention centre, which would be built on the former Halifax Herald Ltd. site. The centre would be ready in January 2015.

Estabrooks said the province is still committed to its five-year plan for highway construction, although projects may not happen as quickly if some of the money is used to build the convention centre.

"Perhaps we won't see as quickly as possible when it comes to the five year plan but there are dollars to take care of our highway needs," he said.

There has been no response from the federal government to the proposal.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2011/01/19/ns-convention-centre-money.html#ixzz1BZi96AKc

[fenwick16]

:previous: It isn't really just road money. This was a false, malicious story by the CBC author. The Building Canada Fund may also be used to build convention centres - http://www.buildingcanada-chantierscanada.gc.ca/plandocs/bg-di/bg-di-info5-eng.html . The following is taken from that link:


(sources - http://www.buildingcanada-chantierscanada.gc.ca/plandocs/bg-di/bg-di-info5-eng.html )
Tourism

Building Canada funding in this category will be directed towards the construction or improvement of convention centres or exhibition hall-type facilities that:

* Increase the number of visitors to the community, and the length and quality of stay of those visitors;

* Promote Canada or the region as a leading destination for Canadian and international visitors.

Funding criteria will require that proponents of convention centre or exhibition-hall type projects demonstrate that their projects will have a significant economic and/or regional impact.

Personally, I feel disgusted by that story and all the people who posted comments supporting the story. The author and the people behind the numerous comments should be ashamed. I am sure that many were just fooled by the story, but I am sure that many of the comments were posted simply to stir up opposition.

[fenwick16]

I seriously believe that the HRM, province of Nova Scotia and Rank Inc. should consider suing both the author of the above story and the CBC for any resulting damages. If it helps sink the Nova Centre project then the losses could be in the millions of dollars.

[sdm]

Road cash could be diverted to convention centre

By DAVENE JEFFREY Staff Reporter
Thu, Jan 20 - 4:54 AM
Bill Estabrooks wants Ottawa to commit $47 million from the Build Canada Fund to pay its portion of Halifax’s new convention centre.

"There’s some remaining funds in the Build Canada Fund," Estabrooks, the transportation and infrastructure renewal minister, said in an interview Wednesday evening.

He wrote a letter last week to Chuck Strahl, the federal infrastructure minister, suggesting that Nova Scotia’s share of the fund could be used to help build the $159-million convention centre in the downtown.

"I suggested to him that this is one of the ways (he) could help us finance that convention centre," said Estabrooks. He said the fund has contributed to the twinning of Highway 104.

Although paying for the national highway system is a tenet of the Build Canada Fund, Estabrooks said none of the road and bridge work outlined in the government’s five-year plan would be threatened or delayed by using money from the fund for the convention centre.

The province and Halifax regional council have both committed to funding the project and last month formally asked Ottawa to kick in $47 million.

Estabrooks said he didn’t know how much money is sitting in the fund for Nova Scotia but believes there’s enough to cover all or most of Ottawa’s share of the centre.

"I believe the convention centre would be a good use for the funds," Estabrooks said.

So far, Estabrooks has not heard back from Strahl.

"It’s time for Ottawa to step up," said Liberal Leader Stephen McNeil. "(The project) is good for the entire province."

Last week, developer Rank Inc. agreed to lock in its price for building the convention centre for a bit longer. The province has said that Rank agreed to a 90-day extension. Rank spokesman Joe Ramia has confirmed an extension but has not specified how long he will hold the price.

The centre, which would be built on the old site of the Halifax Herald, is to be part of a $500-million complex that would include a hotel, retail space and office tower.

( djeffrey@herald.ca)

[sdm]

Convention centre still at ‘if’ stage
MacKay met with TCL president Scott Ferguson this month Ferguson also took part in MacKay’s ‘economic consultation roundtable’ in Halifax yesterday

“We’re not the ones who are holding it up ... If the ask had come sooner, they probably could have had an answer sooner, if I can put it that way.”
– Defence Minister Peter MacKay ALEX BOUTILIER
METRO HALIFAX
Published: January 20, 2011 12:13 a.m.
Last modified: January 20, 2011 12:24 a.m.

The province may have been premature to characterize the convention centre deal as a “not if, but when” scenario.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay said yesterday a deal has not yet been struck and refused to speculate as to when or even if one will come.

“The provincial government does not speak for the federal government when it comes to this file,” MacKay said.

On Jan. 12, Infrastructure Renewal Minister Bill Estabrooks told Metro “there’s no more if to it — we’re going to have this announcement.”

The federal government has been asked to contribute $46 million up front to the proposed $159-million centre. The original deadline for an agreement between all three levels of government was Jan. 15, but developer Joe Ramia agreed to hold the price for an additional 90 days.

MacKay, the lone Nova Scotian in Stephen Harper’s cabinet, met with Trade Centre Limited president Scott Ferguson in Ottawa two weeks ago. According to MacKay, Ferguson delivered some of the more “granular” details of the business case for the proposed centre.

MacKay did not elaborate on what new information Ferguson presented, but said he passed the information along to Transportation Minister Chuck Strahl on Tuesday. Strahl is responsible for the Build Canada Fund — presumably where the federal government’s contribution will come from should it come on board.

“We’re making progress and I should be able to make a decision on this well within the timelines,” MacKay said.

More about Halifax Convention Centre

[fenwick16]

Road cash could be diverted to convention centre
By DAVENE JEFFREY Staff Reporter
Thu, Jan 20 - 4:54 AM
Bill Estabrooks wants Ottawa to commit $47 million from the Build Canada Fund to pay its portion of Halifax’s new convention centre.

"There’s some remaining funds in the Build Canada Fund," Estabrooks, the transportation and infrastructure renewal minister, said in an interview Wednesday evening.

He wrote a letter last week to Chuck Strahl, the federal infrastructure minister, suggesting that Nova Scotia’s share of the fund could be used to help build the $159-million convention centre in the downtown.

"I suggested to him that this is one of the ways (he) could help us finance that convention centre," said Estabrooks. He said the fund has contributed to the twinning of Highway 104.

Although paying for the national highway system is a tenet of the Build Canada Fund, Estabrooks said none of the road and bridge work outlined in the government’s five-year plan would be threatened or delayed by using money from the fund for the convention centre.
.
.
.
( djeffrey@herald.ca)

First the CBC and now the Herald. Can't any of these organizations take the time to do a bit of research. Building roads is only one purpose of the Building Canada Fund. The following is taken from the federal website:

(source: http://www.buildingcanada-chantierscanada.gc.ca/plandocs/booklet-livret/booklet-livret06-eng.html#highways )
Tourism

Tourism and business travel are important parts of Canada's economy. They create jobs and provide foreign exchange and revenues. Tourism contributed more than $26 billion to the Canadian economy in 2005.15

The private sector plays a major role in tourism and meeting infrastructure as well as attractions across Canada. However, public sector investments can also play a role and Building Canada will focus on one such area: investments in convention centres and exhibition spaces. These facilities help strengthen the reputation of Canadian cities as world-class convention destinations, while contributing to Canada's brand and profile in the international community.

Building Canada encourages investments in infrastructure that can achieve significant economic and/or regional impacts through the construction or improvement of convention centres or exhibition hall-type facilities.

[JustinMacD]

I hate Tom Murphy on CBC. Just the way he talks about the Convention Centre...

Everything is in a negative tone: "Lots of people are very upset about using this money for the convention centre" etc.

Just STFU and report the news.

[JustinMacD]

Now they bring some guy on from the NS Road Builders Association for their main interview during the news.

Surprise, surprise the guy is against the plan and Tom Murphy keeps giving him softball questions to bash the government.

Now he's bitching about job loss from loss of road work (and naturally doesn't talk about the job increase with the CC).

[Keith P.]

I hate Tom Murphy on CBC. Just the way he talks about the Convention Centre...

Everything is in a negative tone: "Lots of people are very upset about using this money for the convention centre" etc.

Just STFU and report the news.


CBC News these days is not about reporting the news, it is about creating stories.

I mean, really, if they were still a legit news operation, do you think they would give Colleen Jones airtime just about every single night for her ridiculous stories?

CBC News under its present management has taken lessons from the US news tabloids and presents everything in a negative, contentious tone, even if it isn't. They do the same thing with their excessively alarmist weather reports. Everything is high drama in order to try and get ratings.

The old days of CBC news being actual journalists are long gone. Knowlton Nash and his contemporaries are spinning in their graves.

[fenwick16]

I don't get to see the Halifax area news but at least Peter Mansbridge on the National News seems trustworthy. I think Knowlton Nash might still be alive (but I am not sure).

Is the Central Library being funded through the Building Canada fund also? PS: I just found the answer - the new Central Library will be funded under the same program - Building Canada Fund. Here is the announcement - http://www.buildingcanada-chantierscanada.gc.ca/media/news-nouvelles/2009/20091019halifax-eng.html .

(Source: http://www.buildingcanada-chantierscanada.gc.ca/media/news-nouvelles/2009/20091019halifax-eng.html )
Federal funding for this project would come from the Major Infrastructure Component of the Building Canada Fund. Funding is conditional on the project meeting all of the requirements under the Building Canada Fund and the signing of a contribution agreement with the province.

The same announcement listed roadway improvements and wastewater treatment facilities under the same Building Canada Fund.

In addition to the Halifax Central Library project, Canada and Nova Scotia have identified as priorities for funding a package of wastewater and road upgrading initiatives.

This whole debate about the convention centre funding coming from roadway funds (actually Building Canada Fund) seems very hypocritical. The same funding will be used for the Central Library and was announced on October 19 2009 without a word being mentioned in the CBC or Herald news. I am in favour of the Central library but against the hypocrisy of convention centre opponents who nevertheless seem to support the Central Library regardless of where the money is coming from.

[fenwick16]

It is uplifting to read an honest report written by Brian Flinn in the allnovascotia.com - "New Spin Aims at Ending Road-Convention Debate". It just reported the facts without all the misinformation coming from CBC.

[halifaxboyns]

I've always had the feeling that the CBC had some bias on the issue; I just didn't realize it until the recent articles. It's sad.
Alas, I don't have an access to allnovascotia - don't you have to pay for it? If not; i'll have to set myself up on it one of these days.

The only thing I can thank god for is that the people don't have a say in this decision (per sae) and once the funding decision is made - it's just a matter of design. I just feel bad for the poor planning staff who are going to have to go out there and take the heat because they'll get it from people who just don't want the project period. That happened to me in regards to digital signs, I'm still nursing the wounds so to speak (a good bottle of jack helps!).
=)

If any of the HRM planners watch this board (I know they do); my hats off to you for the 'next phase'. I hope your higher ups put a lot of stuff on the website that says the limits of the debate or not about whether the project should occur and how the project is funded - it's purely about the design. That might save some time.

[beyeas]

CBC News these days is not about reporting the news, it is about creating stories.

I mean, really, if they were still a legit news operation, do you think they would give Colleen Jones airtime just about every single night for her ridiculous stories?

CBC News under its present management has taken lessons from the US news tabloids and presents everything in a negative, contentious tone, even if it isn't. They do the same thing with their excessively alarmist weather reports. Everything is high drama in order to try and get ratings.

The old days of CBC news being actual journalists are long gone. Knowlton Nash and his contemporaries are spinning in their graves.

Agreed (except for the part about Nash's grave, as he is still very much alive!)... back in the 80s I would have always watched The National... now not so much!

There really is no news agency that just reports facts any more, because it is only about selling the news. I can read the exact same "facts" in the National Post, G&M and Toronto Star and get 3 completely different spins. It is as if it isn't the same story at all. When I read news I just want the facts, when I opinion I will read their Op-Ed pages.

The worst in my memory that I saw for that was when I was living in the US during the last Iraq War. Their was no such thing as investigative journalism, just spin and a desperation to not be shut out of a story (so they would report whatever they were told to do).

No such thing as simply reporting the truth any more.

Funny part is that the federal government recently proposed changes to the law the restricts news agencies from reporting false facts. The government wants to loosen the rules that prevent people from reporting false stories. W. T. F.???

[JustinMacD]

The National is still an EXCELLENT news cast. Mansbridge is top notch and they have some excellent reporters.

The local Halifax news cast just annoys me.

Agreed completely with Keith about Colleen Jones. Her stories are just awful.

[JustinMacD]

Here comes more bashing toward the Convention Centre on CBC.

All the goons living in the boondocks incoherently bashing Halifax and talking about some little roads down in the valley should be paved.

I hate living in Nova Scotia. God. Moving to Toronto in two years and cannot wait.

[beyeas]

Here comes more bashing toward the Convention Centre on CBC.

All the goons living in the boondocks incoherently bashing Halifax and talking about some little roads down in the valley should be paved.

I hate living in Nova Scotia. God. Moving to Toronto in two years and cannot wait.

and I am sure they treated it the same when the same fund was used to build the Central Nova Civic Centre... Cheticamp Water Utility... etc

I guess it would be ok then if I wanted my street paved instead of that civic centre?!?! :hell: ARG. Of course not... people are only complaining because the money is going to the Hated Halifax.

[Wishblade]

Don't worry guys, I don't think their going to get their way. I just have a feeling the feds will come through.
I have to say I had kind of a grudge against rural areas of this province before now, but I feel even more strongly about that after all the comments I've read/heard from people on this.

[Canadian_Bacon]

I don't mind if they take money from a fund that is for road building or civic center construction etc. But if it's strictly a road building fund, then I don't think any money from that fund should be diverted to build a convention center. They can't fix the roads with the money they have now, if they divert some of it to something else, then next season our roads might as well be dirt roads.

What's the good of a convention center "that's good for the whole province" if the rest of the province has a mess of it's road system. If I have to drive on pot hole ridden roads, just so hali can get a shiny new center, that's not good for the whole province.

Again, if they want money from a fund that is for road and civic building construction, then sure. But if it's strictly a road construction fund, then I don't think so.

[beyeas]

But that's the whole thing here that the press has confused people on... it ISN'T a road building fund. It is capital infrastructure fund, and log before this request the feds have used this fund to build things other than roads, such as civic centres and water plants. It is not a road fund that they are pulling from.

[Keith P.]

But that's the whole thing here that the press has confused people on... it ISN'T a road building fund. It is capital infrastructure fund, and log before this request the feds have used this fund to build things other than roads, such as civic centres and water plants. It is not a road fund that they are pulling from.


Shhhh, don't say that, the CBC might hear you and be forced to report the truth for a change.

[halifaxboyns]

Shhhh, don't say that, the CBC might hear you and be forced to report the truth for a change.

Fat chance of that. You could stand on the hill with a megaphone and all the people in the CBC would say is what is that strange noise? At least global reported it correctly and included the minister saying what the fund was for.

[Jonovision]

Trade centre in MacKay’s hands

Halifax project a hot potato because of mixed opinions


Nova Scotia Transportation Min­­ister Bill Estabrooks went off­script last week on whether the federal government will agree to spend $47 million on the pro­posed Halifax convention centre. “I’m not going to speculate on the dates when we’re going to have the announcement," he said. “But there’s no more ‘if’ to it — we’re going to have this announcement."

Here’s what Estabrooks was supposed to say: “I can’t speak for the federal government, but this is a great project and I am hopeful that our partners at the federal level will participate.

We’ve been working very hard with our partners. I know that federal officials are reviewing the details very carefully, and I am optimistic, because a new con­vention centre will be a great boost for the economic devel­opment of Halifax Regional Mu­nicipality and indeed all of Nova Scotia, Atlantic Canada, Canada and the world."

That’s not what Estabrooks said. He said: “The deal is going to get done."

In response, Peter MacKay, Nova Scotia’s Minister of Decid­ing Which Projects Get Federal Money, gave Estabrooks a feder­al- provincial dressing-down.

“The provincial government does not speak for the federal government when it comes to this file," MacKay said. “We’re making progress and I should be able to make a decision on this well within the timelines."
Now the funny thing here is that MacKay kind of went off-script, too. He is not the minister who gets to decide what infrastructure projects the federal government funds. That honour goes to the affable Chuck Strahl, the federal transport minister.

But you can bet that Strahl, the MP for Chilliwack­Fraser Canyon in far-off British Columbia, doesn’t care much wheth­er Ottawa funds the convention centre, any more than MacKay cares that Ottawa recently provid­ed $175,280 to improve the rail crossing on Upper Prairie Road in Chilliwack.

So MacKay will likely make the decision.

He doesn’t seem that enthusi­astic about it, and I can see why.

Public opinion in Nova Scotia is mixed, and there is no guarantee that MacKay will look good spending the money. Mayor Peter Kelly and all three provincial party leaders in Nova Scotia support the project, but Halifax MP Megan Leslie is on the fence and South Shore-St. Margarets MP Gerald Keddy, whose riding includes part of suburban Hali­fax, is against it.

In rural Nova Scotia, there is a widespread feeling that Halifax gets enough good things already.

In the city, a small but effective group of heritage activists has managed to mobilize public opinion against the centre. And many taxpayers are grousing that the developer will end up owning the centre while governments foot the bill.

Here in Ottawa, in contrast, workers are finishing a similar project, the $159-million Ottawa Congress Centre expansion, which is being completed with the help of $50 million from the federal Building Canada Fund.

Nobody in Ottawa is grousing about this. People say it looks great, and restaurateurs are look­ing forward to greater numbers of convention visitors when it opens in the spring.

Nobody, either, seems to be complaining in Charlottetown or Fredericton, where the federal government has announced it is funding new convention cen­tres.

But in Nova Scotia, for some reason, this kind of thing is problematic. And MacKay, having been burned politically when the province and municipality decided to walk away from the Commonwealth Games bid, is likely eyeing the convention centre nervously, anticipating that it might not turn into a win for him.

Nonetheless, it would be very surprising if he rejected the pro­ject. The decision is coming soon, I’m told, which means it will be made before the federal government’s spring budget, when the government is sup­posed to tighten up spending. I can’t think of a similar project — a legitimate economic devel­opment project — that the federal government has turned down in recent years.

So Estabrooks, although he went off-script, likely was speak­ing the truth. Ottawa likely is going to drop $47 million, fairly soon, and Halifax developer Rank Inc. will spend half a bil­lion dollars on a hotel, mall, office tower and 300,000-square-foot convention centre, breathing new life into the bleeding downtown core.

And everybody will have some­thing to complain about.

(smaher@herald.ca)

MacKay will likely make the decision.

He doesn’t seem that enthusiastic about it, and I can see why.

[fenwick16]

I think that the Chronicle Herald Story referenced by Jonovision was a fair, concise representation of the convention centre status and possible outcome

It is both interesting and frustrating to see how much public opposition that a minority of people has generated (primarily Save The View and the Heritage Trust). In my opinion, this is no longer just about a convention centre but has become a debate on the future of downtown Halifax. If the Save the View and Heritage Trust win this battle then there will be many more battles in the future to get any major developments built downtown. Will downtown Halifax stagnate or prosper? Heritage is important but only when balanced properly. The existing heritage buildings were built by forward thinking developers 100 - 200 years ago. So why should Halifax now be held back by backward thinking people?

[someone123]

It's a bit misleading to say that everything in Ottawa and other cities was positive. We often hear the positive news from afar but don't hear the smaller-scale complaining and we rarely hear about projects that never get off the ground. I didn't follow the Ottawa story but there was lots of negativity about the Nanaimo convention centre which has not been very successful. That being said, in Halifax there is far more general negativity than in other places. Simply announce a project and people will complain whether or not it is a good idea. As mentioned, rural NS simply doesn't like money to be spent on the city at all -- but they are happy for the city to pay most of the taxes.

As for the CBC, I find it particularly sad to see a public media outlet lower its standards in favour of sensationalism. The worse they get, the less I see the point of spending public money on them. We already get bad, biased news from the private news agencies.

[halifaxboyns]

It's a bit misleading to say that everything in Ottawa and other cities was positive. We often hear the positive news from afar but don't hear the smaller-scale complaining and we rarely hear about projects that never get off the ground. I didn't follow the Ottawa story but there was lots of negativity about the Nanaimo convention centre which has not been very successful. That being said, in Halifax there is far more general negativity than in other places. Simply announce a project and people will complain whether or not it is a good idea. As mentioned, rural NS simply doesn't like money to be spent on the city at all -- but they are happy for the city to pay most of the taxes.

As for the CBC, I find it particularly sad to see a public media outlet lower its standards in favour of sensationalism. The worse they get, the less I see the point of spending public money on them. We already get bad, biased news from the private news agencies.

I wasn't aware that there was any problems with the Ottawa Centre - what was up with it? I knew about the Nanaimo one because I'm on the 'save the view' facebook group (mainly because I like to stir the pot hehe). The flogged the Nanaimo one to death and won't budge on the fact ours will be a bigger version of Nanaimo's (a bigger failure). I doubt it. That group only talks up articles which help their cause and always forget about the key thing: the facts. It's funny, I rarely check it out but I figured it had been a few months. :)

News is news; I find it hard to locate good quality non-biased news anymore. Case in point, I had flipped to CNN today and Wolf Blitzer was talking to Nancy Pelossi from the Democrates. I will say, she is a woman of class in that she wished the republicans well, wanted to get the arguments down to more civilized levels and here was Wolf trying to egg her onto say something stupid, which she didn't fall for. I long for some of the old veteran interviewers like Larry King and gold old Nolton. :)

With all the talk of election, I have a feeling that the PC's are going to look at this and support it just for the fact that the opposition parties are creating rumors of a potential election - so you have to buy votes somehow!

[someone123]

I wasn't aware that there was any problems with the Ottawa Centre - what was up with it?

Well here's one:

The shape of the glass exterior is designed to resemble a tulip petal in shape in honour of Ottawa's annual tulip festival. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Convention_Centre)

Way too exciting and avant-garde for Ottawa. Stephen Harper no doubt accidentally crushed that terrified little orange cat when he read about it.

[sdm]

I wasn't aware that there was any problems with the Ottawa Centre - what was up with it? I knew about the Nanaimo one because I'm on the 'save the view' facebook group (mainly because I like to stir the pot hehe). The flogged the Nanaimo one to death and won't budge on the fact ours will be a bigger version of Nanaimo's (a bigger failure). I doubt it. That group only talks up articles which help their cause and always forget about the key thing: the facts. It's funny, I rarely check it out but I figured it had been a few months. :)

News is news; I find it hard to locate good quality non-biased news anymore. Case in point, I had flipped to CNN today and Wolf Blitzer was talking to Nancy Pelossi from the Democrates. I will say, she is a woman of class in that she wished the republicans well, wanted to get the arguments down to more civilized levels and here was Wolf trying to egg her onto say something stupid, which she didn't fall for. I long for some of the old veteran interviewers like Larry King and gold old Nolton. :)

With all the talk of election, I have a feeling that the PC's are going to look at this and support it just for the fact that the opposition parties are creating rumors of a potential election - so you have to buy votes somehow!

If they are looking to buy votes in nova scotia then NOT supporting it will give them what they desire, in my opinion of course.

Halifax has long been NDP, therefore there won't be any change in those seats if the Federal support for the new centre is positive or negative.

Its the rural area where significant gains (or loss) for votes can be made. There is a very strong restistance in the rural area over this new centre, including the some of the Federal MLA's representing those areas.

Some of the recent moves by the provincial government has increased the rural urban divide, so therefore in a political strategy i believe there is better chances for Federal votes if they not support the centre as the rural voter would believe the Federal government is listening to their concerns.

[Keith P.]

Rural areas may offer potential for the NDP, but that is because they tend to go to the other parties in federal elections. Core NDP support is primarily in the urban areas around Halifax and any gains they get in the rural areas tend to be transitory.

The left has really been stirred up by this project since they seem to think the only thing govts should spend money on are health and welfare programs. Since the left does not understand business and the economy this seems like a giant waste of money to them. In reality the cost is fairly modest and insignificant in the overall scheme of govt spending. The drama stirred up by the left over this in the guise of "saving the view", thanks in large part to their friends at the CBC and other left-leaning media, is really quite silly.

[beyeas]

So I guess those of us in Halifax should have thrown up a big fuss in the press when central nova got a rec centre from the same fund. Apparently they should have paved my street with it instead.

Funny part is that if people in Halifax HAD complained when rural regions got money for things, rural areas would have told us to mind our own business and not try and bully another region. What is good for the goose is quite apparently not good for the gander.

[someone123]

Another aspect of reality often ignored is that most of the far-flung complaining counties are very small compared to the central part of the province. Probably most of them don't even know how small a place like Yarmouth really is compared to Halifax. More than half of people in NS live within an hour drive or so of the Nova Centre. Fair infrastructure spending would see most money spent around the HRM and adjacent counties.

Traditionally this hasn't happened and Halifax has been under-funded compared to other parts of NS (provincially) and other cities in Canada (federally). The NS government has historically been hell-bent on propping up rural areas that have declined despite huge subsidy, and the feds don't give money to Halifax because the city and province can't get it together to match funds and because they feel we're already covered with transfers to the province.

[halifaxboyns]

This is probably going to be a growing issue as time passes. With more and more Canadians choosing to live in major urban areas (large towns or cities) there is going to be a growing divide on issues of infrastructures. As small outports like Yarmouth (or Canso) decline or final reach zero population - rural areas will continue to fight to get some investment. The problem the government will have is trying to decide 'is it worth spending the money on someplace that is slowly dying'. I hate to say it; but personally if these places fail or disappear, then that says something about that place. I guess I'm a rational person with a slight bias because I grew up in the City.

On the other side though; there was a very interesting story on the CBC about Leamington - that it was turning into a city where people were moving to; in order to retire. I wonder if any of these places could turn themselves into a town or city like Leamington and become a retirement haven?

[spaustin]

The urban/rural divide is really magnified by our Westminister parliamentary system. Urban areas tend to be under represented compared to rural areas, which encourages politicians to cater to rural agendas at the expense of urban ones. It's pretty much the same across the country, from here all the way out to BC and Alberta. Federally the same situation is generally at play. What will be interesting for us in the decades ahead is how the dynamic changes as Nova Scotia slowly becomes a city-state. It'll be harder to ignore the needs and priorities of Halifax as the rural areas continue to depopulate and Halifax approaches or exceeds 50% of the provincial population.

[Dmajackson]

On the other side though; there was a very interesting story on the CBC about Leamington - that it was turning into a city where people were moving to; in order to retire. I wonder if any of these places could turn themselves into a town or city like Leamington and become a retirement haven?

I can see the Amherst region becoming this. The town and villages along the Northumberland Shore are gradually growing due to retirees moving into their cottages permnamently which will increase traffic through the community and ultimately make it a larger commercial draw.

BTW I looked it up and HRM, Hants, Truro (CA), Lunenburg, and Kings County (all within one hour of Urban Halifax) have a 2006 population of 566'000 or approximately 62% of the provincial population. In provincial ridings that area is in 28 of 52 seats or 53.84% of our representation in Province House. Since the province itself is not growing there should be a shift of 4 seats from rural areas to the Halifax region.

[halifaxboyns]

I can see the Amherst region becoming this. The town and villages along the Northumberland Shore are gradually growing due to retirees moving into their cottages permnamently which will increase traffic through the community and ultimately make it a larger commercial draw.

BTW I looked it up and HRM, Hants, Truro (CA), Lunenburg, and Kings County (all within one hour of Urban Halifax) have a 2006 population of 566'000 or approximately 62% of the provincial population. In provincial ridings that area is in 28 of 52 seats or 53.84% of our representation in Province House. Since the province itself is not growing there should be a shift of 4 seats from rural areas to the Halifax region.

That's a very interesting statistic. I've been wondering as we get closer and closer to what i've nicknamed 'the big retirement' (once we really see the boomers start retiring) if Nova Scotia's population would actually see a reversal and start growing but be because of an influx of people buying into retirement communities?

If that's the case; I am unsure if that's the kind of growth we'd really want to see considering that they would cause an increase burden on health care. But I've noticed that there is definately a directed marketing of cottage country property in Nova Scotia to people out here; I'm seeing way more ads about the cottage country development in the valley (and I suspect that will continue).

Either way; there was an interesting letter from someone in the herald this weekend. She couldn't understand all the big picture thinking (the convention centre and other things) yet why the government failed to fund the ferry from Yarmouth - which would help get people here.

I have to admit, I don't believe it was a bad decision - the fact that the state of Maine didn't want to get anywhere near it and help fund it (to me) was telling. From what I've been able to find (thus far); most ferry systems that run in Canada don't seem to make money - they are break even and rely on Government assistance. Marine Atlantic is a good example as is BC Ferries. While I appreciate the NDP's position (and the fact the Province doesn't have a lot of $) - I can't help but wonder if we haven't created a system where they can operate and make money? I don't know - but I'd hope it would be operating once Nova Centre opens. It makes getting to Nova Scotia just a little bit easier, I would think?

[Keith P.]

The urban/rural divide is only going to get larger. Retirement to one of these remote little burgs may sound nice at first, but the reality is very different. As you age you need to be close to hospitals and medical resources, you don't want to drive at night, you want people nearby who can assist you, you want to shop close to home... all those things work against retiring to the country. It might work for a few people, but for the majority it is not feasible.

I heard something infuriating on CBC News tonight. A woman from Sydney was going on at length over how the province should buy Holy Angels school in Sydney -- which, BTW, is the poster child for why the education budget needs to be cut. It is falling down, over 100 years old, and has a mere handful of students in attendance. It needs to close. Yet this woman threw out the comment: "What's more important for the government - funding a convention center in Halifax or the education of our children?" Cripes. The politics of division are alive and well in Cape Breton....

[DigitalNinja]

Benefits of the many should always out weight the benefits of the few. Unless you have money to go around.

[halifaxboyns]

Convention centre may bump road projects: Keddy
Last Updated: Monday, January 24, 2011 | 10:47 PM AT Comments0Recommend1.
CBC News
An artist's rendering of what the new Halifax convention centre will look like. (CBC)
A Nova Scotia Conservative MP is warning the provincial government's plan to use money from the Build Canada program for a new convention centre in Halifax will jeopardize other infrastructure projects across the province.

"You can't have your cake and eat it, too," South Shore-St. Margaret's Conservative MP Gerald Keddy said Monday.

"For the province to now ask the federal government to access those funds for a new project and, therefore, put the original projects at risk is irresponsible."

The province has asked federal Transport Minister Chuck Strahl to redirect a part of the Building Canada fund dedicated to Nova Scotia.

But Premier Darrell Dexter said nothing will be sacrificed if Ottawa uses $47 million of infrastructure money as the federal contribution to the proposed $159-million Halifax convention centre.

"We built more roads in the last two years than any government in history. We have set out a road plan and if he [Keddy] thinks it's going to affect roads, he's just wrong," Dexter said.

"We've already set out our plan and we intend to follow through on it."

Keddy said he's not the only Conservative MP in Nova Scotia who's nervous about Ottawa being asked to re-allocate existing funds from the Build Canada program.

"I think it's irresponsible to take existing projects and put them at risk. And I do believe the province should tell the people of Nova Scotia which provincial projects they are willing to put at risk," he said.

The Transportation and Infrastructure Department also released a response to Keddy, saying $57 million from the Build Canada fund is uncommitted and therefore no projects would be put at risk.

Keddy said he's not speaking for the Harper government on the issue.

[Wishblade]

^And if you go to the page itself, once AGAIN, they use the old renderings. Absolutely shameful :no:

[JustinMacD]

I heard something infuriating on CBC News tonight. A woman from Sydney was going on at length over how the province should buy Holy Angels school in Sydney -- which, BTW, is the poster child for why the education budget needs to be cut. It is falling down, over 100 years old, and has a mere handful of students in attendance. It needs to close. Yet this woman threw out the comment: "What's more important for the government - funding a convention center in Halifax or the education of our children?" Cripes. The politics of division are alive and well in Cape Breton....

I saw that too. CBC producers must've loved that.

Most people in Sydney would probably agree with her too. Completely disregard that Holy Angels is a rats nest of an old building in a lousy neighborhood, METRO GETS EVERYTHING. SAVE HOLY ANGELS.

[kwajo]

I don't understand why roads are always looked at as some sort of holy grail of infrastructure spending. "Oh no! This might affect roads! Won't someone please think of the children!?" It's ridiculous. You could have a press conference announcing a billion in new spending on highways and it'd be reported in the press as an "investment", but if you spend a tenth of that on a convention centre or public transit or infrastructure improvements downtown, it's always chastised as a "subsidy".
I know a lot of it comes down to the overwrought influence road contractors have on governments in the Maritimes, but it's been getting ridiculous in the past few years and someone needs to call them out on it.

[JustinMacD]

I don't understand why roads are always looked at as some sort of holy grail of infrastructure spending. "Oh no! This might affect roads! Won't someone please think of the children!?" It's ridiculous. You could have a press conference announcing a billion in new spending on highways and it'd be reported in the press as an "investment", but if you spend a tenth of that on a convention centre or public transit or infrastructure improvements downtown, it's always chastised as a "subsidy".
I know a lot of it comes down to the overwrought influence road contractors have on governments in the Maritimes, but it's been getting ridiculous in the past few years and someone needs to call them out on it.

I saw yesterday on CBC that something like 3M of our tax money went to some hospital study to study brainwaves and it's link to autism or something.

You never see CBC asking "questions of the day" like "Do you approve of your tax money being spent on health studies?". It's always related to the convention center.

[DigitalNinja]

That's because it would be "politically incorrect" someone would take offense to it and pull out the discrimination card.

[beyeas]

I saw yesterday on CBC that something like 3M of our tax money went to some hospital study to study brainwaves and it's link to autism or something.

You never see CBC asking "questions of the day" like "Do you approve of your tax money being spent on health studies?". It's always related to the convention center.

Ummm FYI, I am directly involved in that project, and was in fact one of the two people to fly to Helsinki to convince that company to set up their Canadian research division in Halifax.

For the tax dollars spent, the IWK hospital gets a leading edge instrument that is not just for research but is used for clinical care at a fraction of list price. The only other cities in Canada where you can get this scan are Montreal, Toronto & Vancouver. Add in the fact that as part of getting this instrument at a fraction of the price, the company is setting up their Canadian research office here in Halifax, and their people will work here alongside the people in my lab specifically to do to commercializable research that will have economic benefits to the region. Furthermore, it is not just the research-based and economic benefits, but patients themselves are already benefitting (we commissioned the instrument a year ago) directly in terms of, for example, pre-surgical mapping of epileptic spikes. We can do in one hour (at a cost of $300/h) what it takes typically 1-2 day of in-patient time in a neurology ward at a mammoth cost to medicare.

It is not, as you said, $3M for "a study", it was $3M from a combination of federal funds, provincial funds, and investment from an international biotech company to purchase an instrument and build a facility that will benefit not only neuroscience research but clinical care for Atlantic Canadian kids, all while generating economic spin-offs from product development and jobs created through the hiring of highly skilled personnel.

Asking over-simplified questions like "Do you approve of your tax money being spent on health studies?" are fundamentally flawed regardless, in the exact same way that asking a similar question about the convention centre like "Do you approve of your tax money being spend on a convention centre rather than roads" is fundamentally flawed. They both look sneeringly only at the costs to tax payers while ignoring the other side of the equation.

You overall point is valid (i.e. the CBC/Q104 etc ask loaded questions with flawed methodology), but you happened to choose the decidely wrong example to make it with. :haha:

[someone123]

Yeah, these dilemmas are oversimplified and bear little resemblance to reality. Busing a few kids to a larger school (that probably has a wider variety of programs etc.) is not equivalent to failing to educate all children in NS.

[fenwick16]

Ummm FYI, I am directly involved in that project, and was in fact one of the two people to fly to Helsinki to convince that company to set up their Canadian research division in Halifax.

For the tax dollars spent, the IWK hospital gets a leading edge instrument that is not just for research but is used for clinical care at a fraction of list price. The only other cities in Canada where you can get this scan are Montreal, Toronto & Vancouver. Add in the fact that as part of getting this instrument at a fraction of the price, the company is setting up their Canadian research office here in Halifax, and their people will work here alongside the people in my lab specifically to do to commercializable research that will have economic benefits to the region. Furthermore, it is not just the research-based and economic benefits, but patients themselves are already benefitting (we commissioned the instrument a year ago) directly in terms of, for example, pre-surgical mapping of epileptic spikes. We can do in one hour (at a cost of $300/h) what it takes typically 1-2 day of in-patient time in a neurology ward at a mammoth cost to medicare.

I read about this in the allnovascotia.com. Halifax is certainly lucky to be getting this medical equipment and the research jobs.

[halifaxboyns]

I read about this in the allnovascotia.com. Halifax is certainly lucky to be getting this medical equipment and the research jobs.

I'm actually surprised there hasn't been more of them to be honest. Dal is one of the leading research universities in the country (from what i've read) and it would make sense that there be more investment like this.

As to roads - many a political fortune has been made thanks to paving a road in this province. Sad, but true.

Someone on the CBC posted something which has gotten me thinking. Someone said that it seemed suspicious that Keddy was making such negative comments which hinted that McKay had already made a decision to support the project and that this way it made it sound like they were covering all basis. Not everyone happy but still going ahead. I'm wondering what everyone else thinks on this?

[Keith P.]

Keddy is an extremely crass politician (most are, but he is in the upper echelon), so I think he is just pandering for votes from his constituency, which is largely made up of those who would not support the CC regardless and for whom the "they're taking money away from our ROADS" line has great appeal. I would not put much stock in his position, and his colleagues in the party generally ignore him.

[beyeas]

I read about this in the allnovascotia.com. Halifax is certainly lucky to be getting this medical equipment and the research jobs.

Thanks! :cheers:

[Jstaleness]

Sorry to stay off topic but this is great for us. One of my kids has a brain disorder and if this machine is ever required than I'll surely be glad not to have to go to Montreal for the testing. To add I do love the City of Montreal though!
Back to topic. I was downtown today. Guess what? There is still a big damn hole in the ground.

[fenwick16]

Back to topic. I was downtown today. Guess what? There is still a big damn hole in the ground.

ok, I am curious. Have they started excavating? Or is it still the same vacant lots?

[Jstaleness]

:previous: No Excavation. It's just the left over basements from the old buildings.

[Jonovision]

I'm glad the Herald took it upon itself to give the real facts and dispel all the misinformation circulating.



Keddy seems to soften position on convention centre funding

MP backs off on warning that cash may come from other projects


By STEPHEN MAHER

Ottawa Bureau

OTTAWA — Gerald Keddy ap­peared to acknowledge Tuesday that Ottawa would not have to take money from other infra­structure projects to fund a new Halifax convention centre, as he had said in media interviews on Monday and earlier Tuesday.

Keddy, the Conservative MP for South Shore-St. Margarets, gave interviews to CBC-TV on Monday and News 95.7 in Halifax on Tuesday saying the provincial NDP government was seeking to take federal money already allo­cated to other infrastructure pro­jects and funnel it into the con­vention centre.

Spokespeople for Defence Min­­ister Peter MacKay and Transport Minister Chuck Strahl both said Tuesday that no money will be reallocated.

Keddy later appeared to back away from his stance.

“My understanding of the issue is very clear," he said Tuesday afternoon. “If someone else has a different opinion, I’m OK with that opinion, so long as no exist­ing infrastructure dollars in Nova Scotia get reallocated."

Earlier, on The Rick Howe Show on News 95.7, he said the province’s position was threat­ening other projects. “Quite frankly, I’m concerned with every project that we have in Nova Scotia," Keddy said. “I think that you know it’s time for the premier and (Transportation) Minister (Bill) Estabrooks to come clean with Nova Scotians and clearly say to Nova Scotians what they’re willing to jeopar­dize."

But a spokeswoman for Strahl said reallocation has never been considered, as two federal sources of cash — the Building Canada Fund and provincial base funding — still have about $79 million available for Nova Scotia projects. “The money for any potential convention centre will not come from funding committed to any previously announced project," said communications director Nina Chiarelli.

Jay Paxton, a spokesman for MacKay, said the same thing.

“The funds being looked at as part of the request for a new con­vention centre are all uncommit­ted funds," he said.

“This government is doing its due diligence in evaluating the convention centre proposal."

Halifax MP Megan Leslie said Tuesday that Keddy has been confusing Nova Scotians for no good reason.

“It seems odd to me that he would go to the media with such an ill-informed public comment instead of checking it out first with his own government," the New Democrat said.

Leslie herself is on the fence about the convention centre, saying she wants to see more public input into the design.

The government is expected to announce soon whether it will contribute the requested $47 million to the $159-million con­vention centre project.

(smaher@herald.ca)



TRADE CENTRE FUNDING

Not robbing the roads
BEFORE anyone arraigns Bill Estabrooks for highway robbery, consider this: Exhibit A: Ottawa has a $33-billion infrastructure program, the Building Canada Fund, to help provinces and municipalities make “strategic investments" in economic development, a clean environment and com­munities. The fund has a tourism category directed exclusively to one type of investment: “construction or improvement of convention centres or exhibition hall-type facilities."

Qualifying projects are supposed to increase the number, length and quality of visits and promote national and international visitors.

Exhibit B: Nova Scotia and HRM have agreed to cost-share a $159-million convention centre to replace the obsolete one in downtown Hali­fax. This will spur a $500-million private in­vestment in a hotel, retail shops and offices.

Ottawa is being asked for a third of the conven­tion centre capital cost, $47 million.

The new facility will enable the city to host more national and international conventions.

The private component aims to create 2,000 new jobs in international financial services.

Now, considering the above, is it surprising Mr. Estabrooks, the province’s infrastructure minister, has asked Ottawa to cost-share the convention cen­tre through Building Canada?

Building Cana­da has money for convention cen­tres. Nova Scotia wants to build one with federal help. Mr. Es­tabrooks would be remarkably obtuse not to put this A and B together. He’d be negligent not to use funding that Ottawa, Fredericton and Charlottetown have tapped for their convention centres.

Yet, having gone this route, Mr. Estabrooks is suddenly under fire for allegedly robbing the province of funds for roads and bridges. Some of his critics have always damned the conven­tion centre as a blight on the Citadel Hill view and a declining business. But they also strange­ly include South Shore-St. Margaret’s MP Ger­ald Keddy, who has handed out plenty of feder­al cheques for projects that weren’t roads and bridges, including $10.35 million for a recre­ation and meeting centre in Bridgewater.

In fact, roads have been doing pretty well.

The province has committed $219 million of Building Canada funds to them and has a five­year plan to do more. Another $134 million has gone to recreation centres, libraries, broadband and municipal waste and water systems.

Colchester County and the Town of Truro have used $10 million of Building Canada funds, plus $10 million from the province, for the $48-million Central Nova Scotia Civic Cen­tre. It will host trade shows and conventions as well as recreation and sporting events. These communities clearly don’t see conventions as a dying business or facilities to attract them as a drain on rural Nova Scotia.

Neither does Scott Armstrong, the Cumber­land- Colchester-Musquodoboit MP who lob­bied for the Central Nova Scotia Civic Centre and who also represents a large piece of rural Halifax Regional Municipality.

Many of his constituents, in and outside HRM, depend on the Halifax economic driver, he told our editorial board recently, so he takes a keen interest in HRM growth.

He thinks the convention centre business plan “looks great," offers “huge potential" and is likely to trigger more private investment. If a federal review confirms the plan, he says, Otta­wa “should definitely consider supporting" the project. Yes (take note, Mr. Keddy) it should.

Building Canada was intended to fund con­vention centres. It is funding them. And it won’t be highway robbery if it funds Halifax’s.

(edits@herald.ca)

[halifaxboyns]

Coalition: Not enough demand for centre
Convention market not increasing as Trade Centre suggests, group says
By AARON BESWICK Staff Reporter
Wed, Feb 2 - 4:55 AM

Coalition member Allan Robertson: “It’s a house of cards — it’s really corporate welfare is what it is.” (Peter Parsons / Staff)

A coalition opposed to Halifax’s proposed new convention centre is accusing Trade Centre Ltd. of exaggerating demand for the facility.

The Coalition to Save the View argued at a news conference Tuesday that $159 million in public money earmarked for the centre is being poured into a facility that will compete in a global market glutted with too many conference centres and too few conferences.

"It’s a house of cards — it’s really corporate welfare is what it is," said coalition member Allan Robertson.

The president and chief executive officer of Trade Centre Ltd. disagrees.

"You need to understand the business before you go out and start talking about it, and frankly, I don’t believe that they do," Scott Ferguson said in a telephone interview of the coalition’s claim that the centre would be a drain on the municipal and provincial coffers for decades to come.

Tuesday’s broadsides are the latest salvos fired between Trade Centre Ltd., the Crown corporation that runs the existing World Trade and Convention Centre, and the coalition, originally formed to protect the view of Citadel Hill from the highrise towers that would be part of the $500-million convention centre complex.

Halifax developer Rank Inc.’s proposal includes a hotel and retail, condo and office space in addition to the convention centre. All but the convention centre would be built with private-sector funding.

The three levels of government would put up the $159-million cost of the convention centre. The provincial and municipal governments have agreed to contribute $56 million each while the federal government has been asked to pony up the other $47 million from the Building Canada Fund. Ottawa has not yet made a final decision on funding.

The facility, scheduled to open in 2015 on Argyle Street on the site of the old Halifax Herald building, doesn’t violate provincial regulations protecting the view of Citadel Hill.

Coalition member Phil Pacey disagreed Tuesday with figures used in a Trade Centre Ltd. internal staff report that said the centre would be a draw for large, multi-day conferences bringing delegates from all over the world. The report predicts a new centre would host seven international conferences in its first year, 11 in its second, 13 in its third, and up to 29 by its 10th year of operation.

Pacey said those numbers are based on wrongheaded interpretations of figures from the International Congress and Convention Association, based in the Netherlands, and that Trade Centre Ltd. is using the numbers to make it appear that the international conference market is growing.

Pacey argued that the association’s figures, along with those for national conferences, actually show a market in decline.

"All conclusions that flow from the TCL internal staff report cannot be accurate or be relied upon," he said. "However, the provincial government relied on this report to explain its decision to the public."

Ferguson responded that the existing convention centre already has seven international conferences booked for next year, making it not unreasonable to expect a new, expanded facility could attract as many in its first year and grow its market share.

"These are very realistic and achievable numbers," Ferguson said, adding that international conferences only amount to a small portion of the business plan, which calls for 630 other events in the facility’s first year.

"They’re looking at small pieces of a massive amount of work."

Cathy MacIsaac, a spokeswoman for the Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal Department, denied that the province relied upon incorrect statistics in making its decision to support the convention centre.

"The business case for the convention centre is well-documented and there have been a number of reports done looking at everything from the needs of the centre, to market potential and economic impact," she said.

"Taken together, those various reports and research really highlight the need for the centre and the related broader economic benefits it will bring to the province."

Neither Mayor Peter Kelly nor Rank Inc. spokesman Joe Ramia could be reached for comment Tuesday.

( abeswick@herald.ca)

[DigitalNinja]

Lol I like how they made Save the View look like idiots, saying that the height doesn't interfere with the view planes.

[someone123]

Save the View made themselves look like idiots when they scrambled to find other excuses once it was clear that the height complaints weren't going to cut it.

[sdm]

Baillie pokes fun at himself and gets a jab in at Dexter

By DAVID JACKSON Provincial Reporter | The Howe Room
Sun, Feb 6 - 4:54 AM
Party leader Jamie Baillie warmed up Friday night’s Tory convention crowd with a little self-deprecating humour about his career change, and a not-so-subtle jab at Premier Darrell Dexter.

He recounted a meeting with Tara Erskine, who introduced Baillie and was just named the party’s election chairwoman, when an "emergency call" came from the Institute of Chartered Accountants.

"At first I thought, ‘I’m sure I paid my professional fees.’ And I do pay my own. . ." he said, as the crowd enjoyed the reference to last year’s controversy over taxpayers picking up Dexter’s bar society fees.

(The premier has switched to the lower, non-practising fee and now pays out of his own pocket.)

Baillie went on to say the institute told him he was being named a fellow of the institute. He said he was a bit puzzled because he hadn’t worked in the field for a while, and was told the designation is also given to those who bring honour to the profession.

His reply: "You do know that I’m a politician now, don’t you?"


Someone sure likes Baillie’s material.

Lunch with the leader was one of the items in the party’s silent auction fundraiser and the bidding by late Saturday afternoon stood at $225.

That was well ahead of the chance for meals with other Tories, including party president Rob Batherson (lunch at the Halifax club), Inverness MLA Allan MacMaster, and Bluenose Tories working in Ottawa Drew Campbell and Adam Church.

Food, and a bit of drink, dominated the auction items. Lobster from Argyle, shrimp and crab legs from Cape Breton, Cumberland County maple products, Valentine’s baskets and offerings of wine were all up for bids.


With Defence Minister Peter MacKay, the province’s federal political minister, at the convention, there was bound to be a question about the proposed new convention centre for Halifax.

MacKay said there’s nothing new to report and the federal government continues its due diligence in examining the business case for the project. The province is asking Ottawa to contribute $47 million.

The minister said it’s possible a federal election could hold up the process. The developer has locked in the project’s price until mid-April and there’s speculation an election could be called before then.

"It would depend on the timing," said MacKay. "If there’s an election called within the next 90 days, or in that range, then I suspect that it could jeopardize the timing of an announcement, at least.

"A lot of projects will go, I don’t want to say by the wayside, but a lot of projects may be delayed depending on the timing of an election."

A former NDP candidate has joined the Dexter government’s political staff.

Clair Rankin, who ran in Richmond in 2003 and 2009, is Education Minister Ramona Jennex’s new executive assistant.

The former municipal councillor and real estate agent will make $63,000.

[fenwick16]

Luckily no election is planned for the next 90 days. It would only occur if there is no support for the coming budget from either the Bloc or NDP (the Conservatives don't need the support of the Liberals to stay in power). The Conservatives only need the support of either the Bloc or NDP to stay in power since they are only 11 seats short of a majority - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/41st_Canadian_federal_election .

It seems like most Canadians don't want another election; and what would be the point - it would likely result in similar results to the last minority election. As long as the Bloc keeps winning the majority of federal seats in Quebec, there likely won't be another majority federal government.

(source: http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Canadians+want+need+election/4200371/story.html )
Canadians don't want or need an election now

It's perhaps not surprising that even as election speculation is approaching a fever pitch in the nation's capital, the rest of the country is markedly cool to the notion of a vote sooner than later.

The Gazette February 1, 2011


Although, this may seem off-topic, it is in response to the post by sdm above regarding the Nova Centre.

[halifaxboyns]

What I don't understand about the liberals (in this situation) is that they approved the tax cuts they area freaking out about last year! It was two years of corporate tax cuts and they are going ahead with the 2nd round this year. If the time had been to defeat the budget; it was a year ago not now. Add to that; there are still a number of projects that need to get dealt with (including Nova Centre) through other programs.

I think they are all being childish - pass the budget and continue rebuilding the economy. Argue later.

[halifaxboyns]

So I was watching the broadcast of the City of Calgary's public hearing/combined agenda for today (it was so long, they ran into today from yesterday).

One of the last items was a notice of motion to extend the free fare zone to cover one of the stampede stations next to the roundup centre (on the Stampede ground) - which is one of the two main conference centres here in Calgary (the other of course being the Telus Convention centre).

There has been a huge discussion about how our convention centres (both) are not big enough (even when combined) to attract bigger events. I found that interesting, considering the Nova Centre discussion.

[halifaxboyns]

So I was going through the feasability study Vol 1 to look at the road layout they had in the maps. There was a section I found interesting, which I didn't realize affected the ability to attract conferences from the US:

9.3 Americans with Disabilities Act Implications
The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) is a United States Federal act legislating required accessible design standards in that country. It is direct relevance to the MCII is limited but as with the WTCC, would be applicable to American organizations using the MCII as a potential conference venue. If the MCII does not meet ADA, it is not eligible for that American business.
The project team has experience with ADA and Canadian accessibility standards, and as a general rule, the standards are comparable with minor variations on the similar theme of ensuring universally accessible design. With early consideration of accessibility requirements in further stages of design the cost implications of ADA will be minimal for what will be a new building.

[Empire]

"Yet, I’m hearing of grumbling even among other developers and hoteliers who will feel the competition of a publicly supported hotel and office tower in a situation in which both sectors are already overstored."

Is Ralph very misinformed or is he just being a sly old dog by implying that the hotel and office tower will get taxpayer money?

Convention centre: logic weak, politics weaker. Is it dead?

By RALPH SURETTE
Sat, Feb 19 - 7:28 AM



The federal Conservatives are in turmoil over, among other things, what public infrastructure to fund across the country — a problem closely linked to the next election. The Quebec City arena, which got too hot and scared them off, is the big example. But there are others. The Halifax convention centre is one of those, and well it should be.

The immediate problem is that the public is largely against it, correctly sniffing out that in times of high austerity, public funding for a private project with a rationale that is weak at best and deceptive at worst raises a huge red flag.

Defence Minister and Atlantic political godfather Peter MacKay admitted as much in Antigonish a few weeks ago. "There is no desire outside of Halifax for this project, or very little from what I have heard," he said. By all appearances, there’s minimal desire within Halifax as well. No big poll has dared ask the question, but a series of smaller ones from various sources, the incidence of letters to the editor to this newspaper and other taps of public opinion indicate city public opinion running from two-thirds to 85 per cent against it.

A key motive — perhaps the only motive — for the Tories to announce their $47-million share of the $160-million public part of the public-private project would be to advance the fortunes of Conservative candidates in metro. It may sink them instead, and do no good to the rural ones either, who have grumbled publicly, as funding for the convention centre implies less for other things elsewhere.

The bigger problem is the actual economics. They don’t add up, and the harder the proponents of the project try to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear, the more obvious it becomes. There’s a glut of money-losing convention centres, some brand new, throughout North America as business has been declining for 15 years, and is likely to keep doing so. In trying to torque this into the notion that business is booming (or, if not, that Halifax is immune from the general trend), the argument has slipped into misrepresentation.

At issue is the presentation Trade Centre Ltd. made to Halifax Regional Municipality on Nov. 9, which led HRM to buy into the project. TCL’s slides showed an impressive increase in convention business in Canada from 2005 to 2008.

The opposition Save the View group has been doing the math, and found that this information came from "private and proprietary" studies by Convention Centres of Canada of Vancouver, an industry promotion group. Figures from public sources, including the Conference Board of Canada, showed the reverse — a decline in convention business across the board in that period. Furthermore, charges the group, TCL had "more reliable information they didn’t divulge." Does this matter — or were councillors prepared to swallow anything anyway, as long as it got a crane up in downtown Halifax?

The argument for it is that no matter what the cost in taxpayer funds, it will all come back in economic spinoffs. The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives did an analysis and said that "prudent and conservative numbers from the centre itself" — that is, even the optimistic scenario — "indicate that it will lose in excess of $200 million over 25 years." Those of you who usually email me to say the CCPA is an "NDP front" can spare me this time. The main promoter of the convention centre is the NDP government.

What is disappointing here is the lack of vision shown by the developers, supported in that failure both by the provincial government and city hall. We have a clunker that hardly anybody wants — with the fabled convention centre in the basement yet, calculated to serve lucratively as the foundation for the private hotel and office tower. The developers have said take it or leave it, and the province and the city took it. The idea seems to be that anything that provides a short-term burst of jobs, and that fills that empty space at midtown Halifax, must be a good thing, regardless of the long-term cost, which will in fact be $374 million over 25 years to the public.

Yet, I’m hearing of grumbling even among other developers and hoteliers who will feel the competition of a publicly supported hotel and office tower in a situation in which both sectors are already overstored. Parks Canada has complained too: Although Rank Inc.’s 14- to 18-storey towers will be within the letter of the viewplanes laws, the spirit will be violated, diminishing the Citadel as a national tourist-drawing icon.

Any real small-c conservative out there must be gagging at this shoddy use of public funds. So, Peter MacKay, kill this awkward thing and send us back to the drawing board. This is at least one case where the public good and Conservative party interests actually coincide.

[worldlyhaligonian]

"Yet, I’m hearing of grumbling even among other developers and hoteliers who will feel the competition of a publicly supported hotel and office tower in a situation in which both sectors are already overstored."

Is Ralph very misinformed or is he just being a sly old dog by implying that the hotel and office tower will get taxpayer money?

Convention centre: logic weak, politics weaker. Is it dead?

By RALPH SURETTE
Sat, Feb 19 - 7:28 AM



The federal Conservatives are in turmoil over, among other things, what public infrastructure to fund across the country — a problem closely linked to the next election. The Quebec City arena, which got too hot and scared them off, is the big example. But there are others. The Halifax convention centre is one of those, and well it should be.

The immediate problem is that the public is largely against it, correctly sniffing out that in times of high austerity, public funding for a private project with a rationale that is weak at best and deceptive at worst raises a huge red flag.

Defence Minister and Atlantic political godfather Peter MacKay admitted as much in Antigonish a few weeks ago. "There is no desire outside of Halifax for this project, or very little from what I have heard," he said. By all appearances, there’s minimal desire within Halifax as well. No big poll has dared ask the question, but a series of smaller ones from various sources, the incidence of letters to the editor to this newspaper and other taps of public opinion indicate city public opinion running from two-thirds to 85 per cent against it.

A key motive — perhaps the only motive — for the Tories to announce their $47-million share of the $160-million public part of the public-private project would be to advance the fortunes of Conservative candidates in metro. It may sink them instead, and do no good to the rural ones either, who have grumbled publicly, as funding for the convention centre implies less for other things elsewhere.

The bigger problem is the actual economics. They don’t add up, and the harder the proponents of the project try to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear, the more obvious it becomes. There’s a glut of money-losing convention centres, some brand new, throughout North America as business has been declining for 15 years, and is likely to keep doing so. In trying to torque this into the notion that business is booming (or, if not, that Halifax is immune from the general trend), the argument has slipped into misrepresentation.

At issue is the presentation Trade Centre Ltd. made to Halifax Regional Municipality on Nov. 9, which led HRM to buy into the project. TCL’s slides showed an impressive increase in convention business in Canada from 2005 to 2008.

The opposition Save the View group has been doing the math, and found that this information came from "private and proprietary" studies by Convention Centres of Canada of Vancouver, an industry promotion group. Figures from public sources, including the Conference Board of Canada, showed the reverse — a decline in convention business across the board in that period. Furthermore, charges the group, TCL had "more reliable information they didn’t divulge." Does this matter — or were councillors prepared to swallow anything anyway, as long as it got a crane up in downtown Halifax?

The argument for it is that no matter what the cost in taxpayer funds, it will all come back in economic spinoffs. The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives did an analysis and said that "prudent and conservative numbers from the centre itself" — that is, even the optimistic scenario — "indicate that it will lose in excess of $200 million over 25 years." Those of you who usually email me to say the CCPA is an "NDP front" can spare me this time. The main promoter of the convention centre is the NDP government.

What is disappointing here is the lack of vision shown by the developers, supported in that failure both by the provincial government and city hall. We have a clunker that hardly anybody wants — with the fabled convention centre in the basement yet, calculated to serve lucratively as the foundation for the private hotel and office tower. The developers have said take it or leave it, and the province and the city took it. The idea seems to be that anything that provides a short-term burst of jobs, and that fills that empty space at midtown Halifax, must be a good thing, regardless of the long-term cost, which will in fact be $374 million over 25 years to the public.

Yet, I’m hearing of grumbling even among other developers and hoteliers who will feel the competition of a publicly supported hotel and office tower in a situation in which both sectors are already overstored. Parks Canada has complained too: Although Rank Inc.’s 14- to 18-storey towers will be within the letter of the viewplanes laws, the spirit will be violated, diminishing the Citadel as a national tourist-drawing icon.

Any real small-c conservative out there must be gagging at this shoddy use of public funds. So, Peter MacKay, kill this awkward thing and send us back to the drawing board. This is at least one case where the public good and Conservative party interests actually coincide.

There are alot of factual errors in here. I'm not even going to begin to address them.

[fenwick16]

"Yet, I’m hearing of grumbling even among other developers and hoteliers who will feel the competition of a publicly supported hotel and office tower in a situation in which both sectors are already overstored."

Is Ralph very misinformed or is he just being a sly old dog by implying that the hotel and office tower will get taxpayer money?

He certainly seems to be a sly old dog who will never give up. I posted a comment. I am afraid that people are starting to forget about the convention centre since it has taken so long to get funding.

[Keith P.]

Surette is a dyed-in-the-wool lefty from way back who is in bed with the anti-development obstructionists and the STV loonys. So it is not surprising he uses their same tactics of misinformation and distortion. The truly disappointing thing is that what used to be a decent newspaper, the Herald, has chosen to give space to the likes of Surette and Rachel Brighton under the inept leadership of Dan Leger. He may be the one person who destroys the Dennis family's legacy.

[fenwick16]

There was a story today in the Chronicle Herald about the Heritage Trust wanting funding for a stadium instead of a convention centre. I would like to see both built and will post a comment in the comments section of the story at this link - http://thechronicleherald.ca/Business/1230016.html


Stadium and convention centre, not an either-or proposition

By ROGER TAYLOR Business Columnist
Fri, Feb 25 - 7:11 AM


One wonders if the proposed convention centre was located somewhere other than in downtown Halifax whether there would be as much opposition to the project.

Because it will be located in the heart of the downtown, the convention centre has become a lightning rod for people opposed to all kinds of things.

Some don’t like the idea of a new highrise building within proximity of heritage structures, others are concerned about preserving the view of Halifax Harbour and Georges Island from Citadel Hill, and a few others are concerned for competitive reasons.

The people who feel that way are strong in their opposition but they realize their specific reason is in the minority. So they attack the necessity of a larger congress centre, arguing the convention business is going down the tubes. And as part of that, they are critical of the business case for the centre, which is designed to be a break-even operation.

Then there are critics of the design of the proposed centre, which will be about three times the size of the current facility. The plan is to build the centre on two levels covering two city blocks below ground.
.
.
.

[Jstaleness]

On the Morning Show this morning there will be a discussion on the convention centre vs the Stadium. Which one or both? Tune in or listen online.

[CorbeauNoir]

There was a story today in the Chronicle Herald about the Heritage Trust wanting funding for a stadium instead of a convention centre. I would like to see both built and will post a comment in the comments section of the story at this link - http://thechronicleherald.ca/Business/1230016.html

So they don't like the idea of a highrise blocking the view of the refinery from the Citadel but they have no problem with a giant ugly vacant pit in the middle of the city's entertainment district?

I really don't get this city sometimes :koko:

[DigitalNinja]

There was a guy on CBC radio this morning advocating new construction in cities and higher density to help draw new people to the city as older buildings tend to cost more than high density newer ones.