[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[fenwick16]

The cynical ones on this forum, including myself, have to admit that Howard Epstein's numbers were accurate. The numbers are higher than I expected. However, a large portion of the cost will be covered by annual revenue which I strongly believe will grow as predicted. I have mixed feelings - I had hoped that the costs would be lower. The interim financing increases the cost by $19 million. If the province and municipality were to pay the construction cost up front as scheduled payments then this cost wouldn't exist, however they would still be paying more interest cost on their earlier payments; but then the federal 1/3 payment of about $47 million for construction costs would come in earlier(?), thus slightly reducing interest costs to the municipality and province.

As a comparison to the Ottawa Convention Centre, their cost is $170 million versus $140 million for the Nova Centre ($119 + $21 million). I think the Nova Centre should be considered based on the actual construction and designs costs of $119 million plus $21 milllion for design = $140 million dollars since the interim financing cost wouldn't exist if the municipality and province were paying up-front based on predetermined scheduled lump sum payments.

I don't know what additional operational costs exist but the Ottawa Convention Centre will have: (source: http://ottawaconventioncentre.com/en/venue-services/facility-overview ).

* 192,000 sq. ft. / 17,837 sq. m. of usable space
* 28 meeting rooms in maximum configuration
* 56,000 sq. ft. / 5,203 sq. m. multipurpose hall with capacity 6,260 theatre-style, 4,600 banquet style
* 21,300 sq. ft. / 1,979 sq. m. ballroom with view of the Rideau Canal and Parliament Hill

Based on the Chronicle Herald story by D. Jackson the Nova Centre would have:

* 115,000 square feet of rentable convention space
* 35,500 square foot column-free ballroom
* 52,000 square feet of multi-purpose space
* 28,000 square feet of meeting room space.

PS: The allnovascotia.com states that the total space in the convention centre is 309,000 square feet - this is a good size. It sounds as though the Nova Centre is similar to the Ottawa Centre in terms of size but at a lower total cost (by subtracting the interim financing)
NOTE: The Nova Centre lists rentable space whereas the Ottawa Centre lists usable space - these might not be the same.

I think that the Niagara Convention Centre would beat both, at $93 million dollars they are getting: (source: http://www.fallsconventions.com/ )

* an 80,000 square foot free-span Exhibition Hall
* a distinctive 17,000 square foot Ballroom
* 26,500 square feet of flexible Meeting & Breakout Space
* an intimate 1,000 seat Theatre with live performances

[David1gray]

i found this article in "the news" new glasgow today, its from the opinions section.

Opinions wide on proposed centre

Anyone wanting to enter the debate over a proposed convention centre for downtown Halifax – pick a place to start.
There are all sorts of yea- and naysayers, citing plenty of issues regarding the much-debated centre. Much of that is about money, and that’s a good place to start.
The estimate announced this week is that it would cost provincial and Halifax Region taxpayers $327 million – spread over 25 years – for the building proposed by developer Rank Inc. Provincial officials also say the project would require $46.7-million from the federal government.
The NDP government is still deliberating on what is shaping up as a tough decision. Considering the province’s debt now stands in the $13 billion range, any costly project, no matter what the perceived benefits, is going to be a gamble.
Add to all this concerns from some that the design – with two towers and three times the size of the World Trade and Convention Centre – is being eyed for the wrong spot. Phil Pacey, chair of the Heritage Trust group in Halifax, said that as well as being too pricey, the centre would block views of the harbour from Citadel Hill.
On the other hand, the province says it estimates the centre would create about 12,000 jobs downtown and generate more than $40 million in provincial tax revenues during the first decade of operation. Another argument from the pro side is it takes large centres to host world-class events.
But one huge factor to consider at this point is that the rest of Nova Scotia is direly in need of development. With money directed into such a project from the province’s tax coffers, it is bound to turn into an ‘us versus Halifax’ proposition.
Also, it goes without saying that this is not the best time to toss crumbs to widespread areas. There may well be good points to the centre and general benefits to the province, but the provincial government should realize the cold shoulder it risks in the hinterlands if it does give it the OK

http://www.ngnews.ca/Opinion/Editorials/2010-10-06/article-1827130/Opinions-wide-on-proposed-centre/1

[worldlyhaligonian]

Hmm... I never really considered the rest of the province being p-o'd about this this. Any rural companies should be doing their trade via Halifax in terms of their advisory, facilitation. I see some private sector international trade jobs being created. This is the regional hub concept that has proven itself quite well in the prairie provinces. Every rural business should see development in Halifax as actually a positive, particularly manufacturers.

Anyway, I'm obviously in favour of this development. I don't think anybody would disagree that its not a complicated discussion though.

[eastcoastal]

It's not a great design but it won't be as damaging as Scotia Square. Everything above Argyle is already dead, for one thing, and there seems to be some thought given to Argyle itself. I don't know what they plan on putting in the atrium running over Grafton Street but it should be okay since the blocks on either side are relatively successful.

I don't think the "it's dead already" argument is a good one for being able to propose something awkward and heavy-handed for such an urban site. In a city with healthy retail, commercial, and residential, perhaps a convention centre would work in a location like this, but I can't shake the feeling this site would be best served with something else on it (not a gaping hole either).

I support a new convention centre... and I think tall buildings could fit on this site appropriately... but, I fail to be convinced that this is the best place for a convention centre. For some reason, it makes sense to me that the city sould want to capitalize on its harbour and locate a convention centre somewhere on the waterfront. I also feel that the cogswell lands would have been a better location - close to downtown, but not IN downtown.

Has anything ever been said of what the fate of the current WTCC will be?

[fenwick16]

I think that it will suit Halifax well. I hope that the province can get the numbers down a bit though.

[Keith P.]

Arguing the numbers is a a mug's game -- what is a cost anyway? Is it the number in the Herald that includes the cost of the soap in the bathroom dispensers in 2029? Is it the construction cost? That plus the fit-up? All that plus the staffing? Does that include benefits and pension legacy costs? What about the offset from the presumed reuse or disposal of the existing WTCC site? You can see where this goes -- round and round and nobody can say where it ends.

The one odd thing in the numbers is the use of a 6.98 interest rate in the estimates. The province pays nowhere near that much for money, so I don't understand why they used that in the estimate.

[fenwick16]

There is a story in The Coast by Tim Bousquet. He believes that the Nova Centre will proceed unless Rank cannot get financing (he seems to be hoping this will occur so that Rank Inc. will not proceed). Here is a link to the story - http://www.thecoast.ca/RealityBites/archives/2010/10/06/province-rolls-out-convention-centre-details

[fenwick16]

double post

[fenwick16]

The allnovascotia.com gave some more information on the Nova Centre project. They state that the total space in the Nova Centre is 309,000 square feet (which would include all hallways, stairways, etc.). The construction cost of $140 million sounds much better to me based on that stated square footage, especially since it includes all furnishings. So it seems like the $140 million dollar Nova Centre is probably a better deal than the $170 million Ottawa Centre - it just doesn't look as modern and elaborate (isn't this a result of the Nova Centre having to blend into the Halifax streetscape?). If the Nova Centre is functionally equivalent to the Ottawa Convention Centre then I think that it should compete well with the Ottawa Centre (the Nova Centre is in scenic Nova Scotia after all).

The parking garage takes up 190,000 square feet of the 1,200,00 square feet in the Nova Centre complex, plus 309,000 square feet is the convention centre which gives 499,000 square feet. So the hotel, retail and office tower are the remainder = 701,000 square feet. It looks like there is more space in the hotel than the office tower, so the office tower might be in the vicinity of 300,000 square feet (maybe even less) - this doesn't sound excessive enough to flood the downtown office market.

[fenwick16]

The one odd thing in the numbers is the use of a 6.98 interest rate in the estimates. The province pays nowhere near that much for money, so I don't understand why they used that in the estimate.

This does sound high. I remember reading that Rank Inc. has to arrange the financing. This could be the best rate that a private company can get for a long term loan. However, why wouldn't the province arrange the financing directly in order to get a better rate? Hopefully these items can be negotiated over the coming few months in order to get the interest payments lower.

[David1gray]

N.S. ponders sale of aging convention centre

The Nova Scotia government is looking at selling an aging convention centre in Halifax to offset the cost of building a new one proposed in the city's downtown.

Premier Darrell Dexter said Thursday he has been talking to the mayor of Halifax about selling the World Trade and Convention Centre to the city.

Dexter said his cabinet hasn't yet decided whether it will move ahead with the controversial plan to build the new centre.

He said the city has land the province might be interested in as part of the deal.

Mayor Peter Kelly said the city is reviewing the proposal, but he wants to make sure the costs make sense to taxpayers.

The NDP government announced Wednesday that the new centre would cost taxpayers about $327 million over 25 years — a figure that has been criticized by some as being too costly.


http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2010/10/07/ns-convention-centre-wtcc.html

[Buckey]

This does sound high. I remember reading that Rank Inc. has to arrange the financing. This could be the best rate that a private company can get for a long term loan. However, why wouldn't the province arrange the financing directly in order to get a better rate? Hopefully these items can be negotiated over the coming few months in order to get the interest payments lower.

28,000 direct jobs within ten years and 12,000 immediately??????? I am all about development. BUt this deal needs to be looked over very carefully. Dont lump me in with the save the view house huggers. The breakouts of whop pays for what and who owns what is very confusing at this point. The armoyans and others are making millions off the P3 deals. this looks like even a sweeter deal

[q12]

From News 95.7

Premier pitches mayor on buying old convention centre
Jennifer Casey Oct 07, 2010 14:55:34 PM
There's still no decision on the proposed downtown convention centre, but Premier Darrell Dexter says he's shopped the old convention centre building to HRM.

Signs as of late seem to indicate that the government has indeed already made a decision. When asked what Justice Minister Ross Landry's rural Pictou constituents think about the project:

"I think the decision is a sound decision, I think that the information that we're basing it on and where we're going as a province. It will have economic benefit throughout the province," said Landry.

And although Landry does make it sound as though a decision has been made, Landry followed up with, "We'll wait and see what the decision is."

Meanwhile Dexter says he met with Mayor Peter Kelly to officially hand over the convention centre documents.

"I have suggested to him that the city of Halifax may wish to purchase that building," says Dexter.

Dexter says they'd be looking for fair market value on the building and negotiations may involve a land swap.

Meanwhile, Mayor Peter Kelly says because the building is attached to the city-owned Metro Centre and it's close to City Hall, it is something they'll explore.

"We have to make sure we don't lose any opportunities to correct operational issues with the Metro Centre," says Kelly.

Kelly says the aging Metro Centre requires more washrooms, concessions areas and perhaps even more seating.

This seems like a one of the smartest ideas that has come out of city hall. Buy or land swap for the Convention centre and finally fix the metro centre issues. Seating capacity increases along with moving the sky boxes into a less obstructing view. If I remember correctly the Metro Centre's roof was designed to be expandable, it would be nice to see the metro centre expand capacity to 14,000 to 15,000 without costing a ton of money and still look at building a new outdoor stadium.


From the herald

Dexter talks WTC sale with Kelly: Is new centre a done deal?

By JEFFREY SIMPSON Provincial Reporter
Thu, Oct 7 - 6:05 PM
Premier Darrell Dexter has already discussed with Halifax Mayor Peter Kelly the possibility of selling the existing convention centre to the city, all but confirming officially that the province intends to support the project.

“I indicated to him one of the concerns we have is the disposition of the current facility,” Dexter said Thursday.
“And I have suggested to him the city of Halifax may wish to purchase that building.”

Dexter described Kelly as being interested in acquiring the building, located directly across Argyle Street from city hall, for municipal offices when the two met on Wednesday. The city already owns the adjacent Metro Centre.

“We need to know with some certainty there’s not going to be an empty building in downtown Halifax,” Dexter said.

He said he wants to get fair-market value for the site, but suggested swapping the World Trade Convention Centre for some land the municipality now owns as part of a deal; he didn’t specify the parcels that would interest the province.

His government still hasn’t officially announced a decision on funding the project, part of a 1.2-million square foot development proposed for the former Halifax Herald Ltd. site in downtown Halifax.

It would cost provincial and municipal taxpayers more than $325 million to lease and maintain over 25 years. There’s no upfront cost to the province or municipality.

“Our level of comfort with it continues to grow,” Dexter said. “It’s an exciting opportunity for the city and the province.

“I am persuaded by what I have seen with respect to both the benefits and the obvious lack of the current facility to be able to meet the needs of the region.”

But before committing the province to any project Dexter said he wants to make sure it’s a good one.

“We live daily with the results of the decisions that have been made by past governments,” he said, pointing to an unfavourable and costly leasing deal with another downtown office building and P3 schools as examples.

“ And we are experiencing through our budget lines what those decisions mean, so I think we have the right to be careful, we have the right to be considerate of taxpayers money.”

Ottawa won’t consider it for funding as a P3 project, but the province is hoping it will cover $47 million — one-third of the construction and design costs.

Dexter said he wants to ensure Halifax is a vibrant provincial and regional capital, but there’s not currently enough office space to attract new business.

“Our government is not about clinging to the vestiges of the past — our government is about the future of this province,” he said.

“We haven’t built really a class A office building in this province I think since I was in law school — and that wasn’t yesterday.”

Justice Minister Ross Landry appeared to inadvertently let slip earlier in the morning which way the government was leaning when it came to funding the centre.

“The decision is a sound decision,” he said.

“The information that we’re basing it on and where we’re going as a province, it’ll have an economic benefit throughout the province.”

Kelly said there are several things that must be considered before the municipality cuts a deal to buy the centre, such as upgrading the aging restroom and canteen facilities at the adjoining Metro Centre.

“We don’t know where that will go,” Kelly said.

“We didn’t say we’re buying or selling or doing anything.”

But he’d be interested in acquiring such an asset if it benefits taxpayers, he said. The municipality now leases office space scattered throughout the municipality, so this may allow it to put some of the offices together.

Project naysayers dismiss the convention centre as not being worthwhile.

“This is a very bad project,” Phil Pacey, of Save the View Coalition, said.

“The government doesn’t seem yet to have understood that the cost of this project is very much greater than than any potential benefits than they might gain.”

His group is worried the convention centre will block the view of Halifax Harbour from the top of Citadel Hill.

“Some visitors to the province told us, just volunteered the fact, that if this project goes forward they will not return to Nova Scotia again,” Pacey said.

“That is something that really has to concern people.”
Bruce DeVenne, who operates the website www.governmentripoff.com, said he doesn’t understand how Halifax could compete with other cities such as Las Vegas or Toronto for conventions.

“It’s all hype,” he said.
“The public has no business getting involved in this.”

The entire cost of Rank Inc.’s proposed project is about $500 million, although taxpayers would only be involved with the convention centre part of it. It would also include a hotel, office tower, retail space and parkade.



The new convention centre is going to happen if both the premier and mayor are for it.

[hfxtradesman]

Premier Darrell Dexter was on CTV with Steve Murphy tonight basically letting the cat out of the bag saying that this is a very good deal for the province and really the only thing was the old WTCC, that he is trying to sell to the city. Once this gets settled the project will be announced.

Plus the premier said that there will be some other big developments going ahead also in the near future in the downtown area, after Steve Murphy asked him if the city was anti-development.

[Empire]

The existing convention centre would make a great city hall annex. Burrow under Argyle street with a connecting tunnel to the existing City Hall and you would have a great complex.

Why don't people like Bruce DeVenne complain about wasting taxpayers money on advertising for tourism. The premise is that if you invest money in tourism advertising then perhaps someone will come to the province and spend money.

Taxpayers money spent on a convention centre is a better bet in terms of people coming to the province and spending money. Convention goers not only spend on average $1600 per visit but could return with their families for a vacation. In addition, conventions allow business alliances to be formed and the potential exists for businesses to expand or relocate here. The financial services industry is worthy of support. Bruce D where do you want "your" tax $$$ invested?

[someone123]

Plus the premier said that there will be some other big developments going ahead also in the near future in the downtown area, after Steve Murphy asked him if the city was anti-development.

I wonder if the province is still interested in building new offices at Barrington and George, filling in the north end of the block and retaining the Dennis Building facade?

[PoscStudent]

The new convention centre is going to happen if both the premier and mayor are for it.

What about the Prime Minister?

[halifaxboyns]

I don't agree with your comment Q12 about more seating and moving the sky boxes if HRM buys up the old convention centre. If they buy it up; they'll need it for offices so it will probably stay in place to a certain extent - although who knows at this point?

I think Empire is going down the right road from the perspective of bringing tourists to Halifax. As I've said in this thread and posting on CBC, part of the difficulty with a convention centre is quantifying the spin offs. Each city that has a conference has the ability to attract a lot of attention to itself and bring in people primarily for the conference, but entice them back with the scenery. Vancouver and Calgary are good examples of that (with their proximity to the mountains and Vancouver to the ocean).

I'd go one step further and say that if this is built, between the natural draw of just coming here to attend a conference and the money put into tourism spending for advertisements - the return should be pretty good.

[planarchy]

Who hates downtown?
The Chronicle-Herald and Chamber of Commerce abandoned downtown; now they lecture us on how to save it.
by Tim Bousquet

Who hates downtown Halifax? Certainly not the thousands of people who head to Argyle Street for post-work drinks. Most definitely not the shoppers mobbing the Spring Garden Road shopping district. And unquestioningly, without a doubt, not the crowds that flock to the boardwalk every chance they get.

By all indications, regular Haligonians love downtown. And why shouldn't they? It's a lovely place, with wonderful views of the harbour, interesting architecture and shops and a fun mix of different slices of our community---office grunts rubbing elbows with university students, artists, blue-collar workers and the odd newspaper reporter.

But there is one group that hates downtown Halifax: the political and business establishment that runs this town.

The political and business leadership first set out to destroy downtown in the 1960s, when it decided to forever cut downtown off from the waterfront by building a six-lane expressway called Harbour Drive atop what is now the boardwalk. Only after the horrific Cogswell Interchange was built did a group of historic preservationists stop those plans; no one now thinks Harbour Drive was a good idea, but while the historic preservations are vilified as the enemy of an undefined, but vaunted, "progress," the establishment suffered no consequences whatsoever from their very bad idea.

Frustrated at their first attempt, business and political groups moved on to a second plan: they'd kill downtown by subsidizing suburban development. Sure enough, Eaton's, a Barrington Street anchor of downtown, moved out to the West End Mall. By the 1990s, the leaders of the former cities of Dartmouth and Halifax were outdoing each other in constructing the suburban business parks of Burnside and Bayers Lake, selling off below-market priced land. The big box districts sprung up, sucking the retail heart out of downtown. The same with office space: earlier this year, city council approved expansion of both BLIP and Burnside for new office buildings, which will rent for a fraction of the price of downtown offices.

Not satisfied with knocking it to the ground, the business elite decided to kick downtown while it was down: The Chamber of Commerce moved its headquarters out to Burnside, and the Chronicle-Herald, whose workers made the Argyle Street bar district possible, moved out to the rotary. Both moves deprived downtown shops of another set of customers, and also sent businesses a clear signal about which business districts matter and which don't.

But now, business propagandists tell us, they love, love, love downtown, and they're going to save it by having us pay for a shiny new convention centre. Blithely unaware of their hypocrisy while sitting in their new rotary office, Chronicle-Herald columnists Marilla Stephenson and Roger Taylor continue to rail against those who oppose the convention centre; Stephenson and Taylor would better serve their own reputations if they'd put out more trite columns about privatizing the sewage system and how to save point three of a cent on heating oil, and leave off about downtown altogether, at least until their employer apologizes and moves back downtown.

If it had any self-respect, the Chamber too would slink away and hide rather than offer up an opinion about downtown, yet here's Chamber president Valerie Payn, drooling over the prospect of construction tenders for her members, issuing a press release saying we taxpayers need to pony up for the convention centre because "Investing in our urban core is long overdue." But if the goddamned Chamber of Commerce won't invest in the urban core, why should anyone else?

The establishment's pro-convention centre argument basically comes down to "Downtown sucks!"---the empty lots and papered-over storefronts that the establishment itself caused to exist are held up as proof that, the huge numbers who actually like and use downtown notwithstanding, downtown sucks, so we better cough up $160 million.

"Downtown sucks!" probably isn't the best marketing slogan, because it's not make-believe convention-going business people from Toronto and Vancouver who will determine the future success of downtown, but rather everyday people in Cole Harbour, Bedford and Clayton Park: if they come downtown it will thrive; if not, it won't.

And those suburbanites won't be coming downtown to visit a convention centre, but they might come for the same reasons that those who already love downtown come: because it's a pretty neat place.

[fenwick16]

Another off-the-wall column by Tim Bousquet. It shows his anti-establishment leanings. I guess that he is still licking his wounds because the convention centre appears to be moving forwards.

[Keith P.]

Another off-the-wall column by Tim Bousquet. It shows his anti-establishment leanings. I guess that he is still licking his wounds because the convention centre appears to be moving forwards.

Yes, he seems to have given up on some of the fallacious arguments he had previously been making against it, and now is opining that he doesn't think lenders will provide financing to Rank. Grasping at straws...

[spaustin]

I wonder if the province is still interested in building new offices at Barrington and George, filling in the north end of the block and retaining the Dennis Building facade?

Interesting point. The land swap with the municipality is done now and they did just announce this week that they're going to sell the Joe Howe Building when they own it outright in, I think, 2013. I would be surprised if they weren't considering their options.

[beyeas]

Interesting point. The land swap with the municipality is done now and they did just announce this week that they're going to sell the Joe Howe Building when they own it outright in, I think, 2013. I would be surprised if they weren't considering their options.

Wonder if there is any chance of them planning on getting space in the Nova Centre as part of the deal?

AllNS said that there might be talked between the province and Ben McRae... interesting that the total floor space in Waterside and the total floor space needed by the province is an exact match. Basically the Waterside could become basically nothing but NS Gov offices.

[Wishblade]

Sounding like good news out of council:

Centre has its supporters
Most councillors support project, but some reserving judgment
By MICHAEL LIGHTSTONE City Hall Reporter
Sat, Oct 9 - 1:00 PM


There’s strong support on regional council for a new convention centre in downtown Halifax, but not all councillors have made up their minds about the proposed project.

The Chronicle Herald canvassed council’s 23 members plus the mayor Thursday night. Not every councillor replied by mid-afternoon Friday.

Those who did were either in favour of the project or said they’re reserving judgment pending more information about it.

Coun. Steve Adams (Spryfield-Herring Cove) said Friday he’s already decided.

"I’m in," he said in an interview.

"If we’re going to lose money on it, then no," Adams added. "But the business case for the tax (revenue) alone shows that it’s a good deal."

With the information he has now, Coun. Bill Karsten (Portland-East Woodlawn) is another supporter.

"There is a strong business case for a new convention centre," he said in an email.

"I believe that it can be the catalyst to jump start the $6.5 billion in approved development for the downtown and evolve it into being a vibrant, modern and exciting economic capital district."

Coun. Mary Wile (Clayton Park West) also backs the proposed complex.

"The cost is quite high but what isn’t today," she said in an email. "The current Trade Centre has a limited capacity to hold various functions."

Coun. Lorelei Nicoll (Cole Harbour) said she needs details before making a decision.

"The only information I have seen is what has been printed in the media. Therefore, it would be difficult to say where I stand on the issue," she said.

Coun. Peter Lund (Hammonds Plains-St. Margarets) said he’s all for it, "if indeed there is a sound business case."

In an email, he said, "We need incentives in the downtown, and without input of public monies in combination with tax incentives, there will be no growth."

Coun. Steve Streatch (Eastern Shore-Musquodoboit Valley) is firmly behind the proposed development.

"But, as a councillor, it will also come down to the provincial ‘ask’ of our taxpayers here in HRM. After all, it is the government of Nova Scotia’s decision and the lion’s share of the costs must be borne by the province," he said in an email.

Coun. Linda Mosher (Purcells Cove-Armdale) said the planned development will be good for the city, province and Atlantic region.

"From what I’ve seen so far," she said, "this is a no-brainer."

Coun. Darren Fisher (East Dartmouth-The Lakes) is, at this point, a supporter too.

"I would say I’m in favour of the project getting the green light. If and when this does come to council I will base my decision on the information provided."

A mixed-use development is planned for the fenced site of the demolished Halifax Herald Ltd. building on Argyle Street in the downtown core. Provincial officials released some information about the proposal on Wednesday.

The whole project is to cost up to $500 million but taxpayers would only be involved with the convention centre component.

A senior bureaucrat with Nova Scotia’s Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal Department said the cost of building the convention centre is $159 million, which includes $119 million for construction, $21 million for engineering and design and $19 million for interim financing.

The developer would be responsible for any cost overruns.

Provincial government staff have said about $86 million in direct and spinoff benefits for the province are projected over a 10-year period. Benefits include an estimated $40 million in provincial tax revenue in the first decade of operation.

Also, thousands of jobs are to be created during construction and while the planned complex is operating.

The province wants to share the cost of the project with Halifax Regional Municipality and the federal government. The split is still up for negotiation, but city hall would contribute a significant portion if regional council agreed.

Though he’s been a vocal supporter of the proposed complex, Mayor Peter Kelly said Thursday that regional council "needs specific details" before it can give the plan a thumbs up or down.

Municipal staff "will complete their analysis of the data and prepare a presentation and discussion points for council" to review during a regular session at city hall on Oct 19, Kelly said.

The mayor backs the concept of a new convention centre for downtown Halifax.

Supporters of the project say such a project will act as an economic engine for a downtown district in the doldrums. They say the World Trade and Convention Centre is losing large groups of delegates to other cities because the facility is too small to accommodate them.

Opponents question the business case for a new centre and say two towers that are part of its design will block the view from historic Citadel Hill.

"The historic nature of downtown Halifax is a primary economic asset," the Coalition to Save the View says on its website.

"The proposed convention centre towers fly in the face of current best practices in the world’s great historic cities."

[worldlyhaligonian]

That's total bullcrap that it flies in the face of best practices... most cities are integrated with old and new, have a real trade centre.

[kph06]

Sounding like good news out of council:

Notably not mentioned: Watts and Sloane. I can't imagine either of them getting behind this, even though Sloane said she was on the fence last I heard.

[fenwick16]

One item that the opposition continually overlook is that the convention centre will generate direct revenue - even the outdated WTCC is generating $6 million yearly. I feel that even a conservative estimate of revenue would be $10 million annually for the new centre (based on the huge increase in bookings that the Ottawa convention centre is seeing). This will basically pay the annual mortgage and operational costs for the HRM and province. On top of that direct revenue, the HRM will get increased property tax and the province/federal governments will get increased HST and personal income tax.

[Keith P.]

Notably not mentioned: Watts and Sloane. I can't imagine either of them getting behind this, even though Sloane said she was on the fence last I heard.

Both are anti-development in general, and Sloane of course is a member of the Save The View Facebook group, so don't expect anything good out of her. Watts has opposed pretty much everything and is a protege of Howard Epstein, so her vote is already decided.

[kph06]

One item that the opposition continually overlook is that the convention centre will generate direct revenue - even the outdated WTCC is generating $6 million yearly. I feel that even a conservative estimate of revenue would be $10 million annually for the new centre (based on the huge increase in bookings that the Ottawa convention centre is seeing). This will basically pay the annual mortgage and operational costs for the HRM and province. On top of that direct revenue, the HRM will get increased property tax and the province/federal governments will get increased HST and personal income tax.

Overlook or Ignore? I find the worst aspect of this fiasco is there is barely any articles that clearly outline the bid and break it down. The general public just get confused by all the different numbers thrown out there and then focus on the boldest headlines, which unfortunately are usually released by the opposition - usually based on conjecture, worst case scenarios, or plain BS.

[Empire]

Overlook or Ignore? I find the worst aspect of this fiasco is there is barely any articles that clearly outline the bid and break it down. The general public just get confused by all the different numbers thrown out there and then focus on the boldest headlines, which unfortunately are usually released by the opposition - usually based on conjecture, worst case scenarios, or plain BS.

I agree, the opponents peg the taxpayer cost for the project at 357 million with lease payments and the fed portion.

Can't someone in the know (Developer) do a cost breakdown.......?

Expenses:

- yearly lease payments HRM/province
- feds 46 million upfront cash infusion
- all other expenses for HRM/province .....financing/debt servicing etc.

Revenue:

-12 million HRM property tax
- fees...permits etc.
- GST infusion

Projected Revenue:

- $1600 per single convention attendee = old trade centre 2009 amount of attendees x 3
- Provinciial/federal income tax for direct and indrect employees
- hotel revenue
- % uplift in tourism
- % increase in development
- % increase in new business connections

[worldlyhaligonian]

Overlook or Ignore? I find the worst aspect of this fiasco is there is barely any articles that clearly outline the bid and break it down. The general public just get confused by all the different numbers thrown out there and then focus on the boldest headlines, which unfortunately are usually released by the opposition - usually based on conjecture, worst case scenarios, or plain BS.

Meh, it doesn't really matter. Do you think any of these opponents or the average person would even understand a pro-forma income (exepenses vs. revenues) statement?

None of the people against this know anything about business and will say anything to scare the average tax payer.

The reality here is that revenues will be generated and its not entirely dependent on the convention space alone. The deal is really good for Nova Scotians and Haligonians because of the federal funds.

Its actually pretty basic, its just the proponets aren't able to provide all of this information before things have been finalized. The opponents are the ones that are being heavy handed here, using misinformation fear tactics to scare the public.

The money is being spent on a revenue generating project. There is clearly an anti-height bias underlying everything the opponents say.

The people who are against this are the same ones that were against UG and everything else taller than "5 or 6 stories". They think they have already killed that development, but I don't think they are going to stall this one into the ground.

[Buckey]

OH I can read I/S and B/S. I do it daily and at one time was paid nicely to do it. The misinformation of the job numbers alone are enough of a red flag at this point. I would love to have the numbers. I am completely against this at this point. If the NS AG looks it over and approves it IM ok with it. A lot of wierd numbers.

I would argue that most of the people bl;indly supporting this would know f all about what you speak.

Meh, it doesn't really matter. Do you think any of these opponents or the average person would even understand a pro-forma income (exepenses vs. revenues) statement?

None of the people against this know anything about business and will say anything to scare the average tax payer.

[worldlyhaligonian]

OH I can read I/S and B/S. I do it daily and at one time was paid nicely to do it. The misinformation of the job numbers alone are enough of a red flag at this point. I would love to have the numbers. I am completely against this at this point. If the NS AG looks it over and approves it IM ok with it. A lot of wierd numbers.

I would argue that most of the people bl;indly supporting this would know f all about what you speak.

Meh, it doesn't really matter. Do you think any of these opponents or the average person would even understand a pro-forma income (exepenses vs. revenues) statement?

None of the people against this know anything about business and will say anything to scare the average tax payer.

Every way I calculate it, its a good deal. When compared to the cost of a 40 million 4 pad arena, its a better business case. The structure of the deal is highly beneficial to Halifax and its about time we get a big provincial expenditure where it will really make a difference.

Even if we don't have the exact numbers, the ratios of funding sources all clearly reflect a positive business case. This doesn't even take into account spinoffs of different varieties. The amortization is fairly attractive due to the small amount paid annually. The interest rate will likely be favourable.

It sounds like you are buying into misinformation and are against infrastructure due to unfounded fear of its cost.

I don't know how you can say the jobs that are created by this aren't significant. Also, I don't think we have accurate totals yet, but if its anything close to what has been revealed (i.e. 160 million) we can definitely afford it. We're talking downtown tax rates on this property and density!

[fenwick16]

I think that a good comparison is the Ottawa convention centre and the big increase in bookings that they have seen. The Halifax area and Nova Scotia do well in the tourism sector, so the HRM and province are expanding a business that they can succeed at.

Buckey - I don't know where these numbers are coming from that you quoted - could you provide a source? I read that it was 1200 construction jobs.

28,000 direct jobs within ten years and 12,000 immediately???????

[Keith P.]

The Auditor-General does not offer prospective opinions. Or at least they shouldn't if they want to have a shred of credibility and objectivity left down the road when they might be asked to review something in relation to said project.

For a smart guy, it's funny you don't know such things.

[Jonovision]

Quite a nice article from todays paper. I know people on here have bashed Dan Legere for publishing misleading information, but this article seems to sum up the argument quite well in my opinion.


Convention centre angst: clashing views and indecision


Sometimes it seems like this place survives in spite of itself, or perhaps in spite of its leaders.

Case in point: the flap over the new convention centre.

No matter whether you’re for it or against, the pussy-footing by our political leadership has not been helpful. It would be very refreshing if someone would simply take a stand, yea or nay.

A reading of tea leaves sug gests that the provincial govern ment will agree to help finance the project and that the city will tag along, to the tune of $57 million each. It’s expected, but not guaranteed, that Ottawa will chip in another $47 million.

But we don’t know any of that. The NDP government has been remarkably opaque about its position. Infrastructure Minister Bill Estabrooks promises a deci sion in “a few more days, weeks or months."

By late last week, Premier Darrell Dexter was making warm, fuzzy noises about the project, suggesting that his gov ernment’s “level of comfort" with the proposal “continues to grow." That sounds like a yes, too.

Halifax Mayor Peter Kelly has been nowhere to be seen. He relayed a copy of a provincial news release about it on his Twitter feed, but fell far short of taking an actual position. That’s disappointing, because if anyone should have something clear to say about a development that will have a massive impact on downtown Halifax, it’s the may or. But Kelly’s not much for clear stands on public issues.

It’s true that this issue isn’t simple or straightforward. Even proponents of the $500 million private-public development must see there are legitimate questions about whether the investment will turn out to be money well spent. Taxpayers are being asked for $159 million, money that proponents promise will be reco vered over the long term in taxes, wages and economic spinoffs.

The opponents counter that the economic impact studies are too optimistic, that the conven tion centre might not attract new business and taxpayers will be left on the hook.

The problem is, you can’t prove either argument. The pro ponents can’t really prove that “if you build it, they will come," because predicting anything in this economy is all but impos sible. You can make an educated guess. You can develop models that are accurate most of the time in most cities. But you can’t guarantee it.

Equally, the opponents can’t prove that it won’t work. Just because public-private part nerships have not worked well in the past doesn’t mean it won’t work this time. Uncertainty rules.

So the question boils down to attitude. On one side, the opti mistic view of Halifax as a place where people will want to visit, spend money, work and live.

That’s the business view and business people tend to be opti mists. After all, why even be in business if you don’t think you’ll do well and make a profit?

It feels like the opponents have a much more pessimistic view.

They’re saying that business can’t be trusted, Halifax can’t grow coherently and that we should simply cling to what we have now. “If you build it, it will fail" summarizes that argument.

Perhaps it’s not surprising that younger people appear to believe that Halifax can grow into a more dynamic city, where the modern lives in harmony with the tradi tional. That happens in great cities around the world. Fusion Halifax, an organization of young professionals, is a strong proponent of the project.

Maybe it’s a characteristic of advancing years that people conclude the city has grown enough and that new construc tion downtown should be limited to low-rise buildings resembling those already standing in the city’s historic heart. Maybe older citizens just know from experi ence that not every great plan works out.

Generational clash or not, the debate’s been obscured by cant and propaganda. There hasn’t been a single believable survey on the topic and we don’t know the public’s will.

That’s probably what’s hold ing up the decision. The Dexter government probably wants to go ahead, but doesn’t have a clear green light in public opin ion. But it can’t delay forever and if it wants to lead, it has to show leadership.

Dan Leger is director of news con tent for The Chronicle Herald. The views expressed here are his own.

(dleger@herald.ca)

[halifaxboyns]

Just now finished going through all the posts over the weekend - I decided since my Friday off was last week; I'd enjoy a total disconnect from here if at all possible. What happens when I call my relatives? They all want my perspective on the convention centre - typical family. I think Dan's article seems to be pretty balanced. He's taking a down the middle approach. I totally agree with him about the political leadership though - I find it annoying that they won't actually come out and say they are in support or not. Pick one and have the backbone to stand up to the onslaught of critism. I was very annoyed by some of the nasty stuff posted in the CBC forums when these stories came up - but I realized that many of them are against the proposal or lack an understanding of it. So i'm not going to loose sleep over it.

Tim's article last week made me laugh. He reminds me of a reporter out here for the Calgary Sun - Rick Bell. As I like to think of him (and now Tim) - they both like to see their words on a page for all to see. Whether they contribute to the discussion is a whole different story. With both, no matter what happens - it's never right. I think that's part of the reason why Canadians complain so much (that's a joke). :) Tim does make an interesting point though - it's sad that the downtown business commission isn't even in downtown anymore. But on the opposite side, if I'm not mistaken the Coast offices aren't in downtown either. Tim's article to me, really gave off the impression that the opponents of this project are grasping at straws now. They know the argument about the view is week (the pictures from Rank and on CBC showed nicely how George's island wasn't impeeded and the oil refinery actually got covered up - an improvement in my view). So now; it's a desperate search to find anything. It's like putting gauze in front of a semi truck and saying 'you can't come through' - not going to work.

Dan's article really hits the nail for me in terms of the economic impact. I don't understand the economic part of this - but when they said 12,000 jobs even I went...REALLY? That seems like a really big number and I didn't really think it was possible. But unlike the people on CBC who didn't believe that most people spend about $1,600 at a typical convention, I decided to test the theory. I chose 3 different hotels, for the same 3 nights in November (arriving November 14, leaving the 17th) - a typical 3 night conference. The hotel rates I got back varried from a low of $140/night, to a high of $210/night. With 3 nights and taxes, you could range from around 550 to as much as 750. With airfare from Calgary (assuming it was me that went) I came out to between 1450 to as high as 1700. So that number works...

But what I can't get is the job numbers - so perhaps someone can help me out here. I know the number has been bounced around of between 1,000 and 1,200 construction jobs to put the building up. Are the rest of the jobs those associated with the centre and spin off jobs? It's funny that we find the economic spin offs so far fetched, yet whenever the Airport Authority publishes what it's spin off jobs and economic impact are - no one bats an eye. Odd that eh?

The thing I found interesting - was the herald's poling of council and where they stand. It's good to see that so many are firmly in the yes side. But what struck me about that article was Bill Karsten's quote from his email:
"I believe that it can be the catalyst to jump start the $6.5 billion in approved development for the downtown and evolve it into being a vibrant, modern and exciting economic capital district." I was floored when I read that - is that accurate? I know twisted sisters was going to be pricey, but did HRM really approve that much? If so, I have to say that I am very impressed.

Finally - I'll leave my last comment to be about the wonderful save the everything people. Their two lines at the end were priceless. Flies in the face of best practice eh? Some people obviously haven't been to Europe or even to New York and other old cities. London has tremendous heritage - yet there are tall buildings there and the world didn't explode! Oh well - these are minds that are so narrow in their thinking, they will never change.

[someone123]

Nova Centre is $500M and the UG towers were originally $150M (back in 2004 or so) - I'm sure they'd be much more today. There are other big long-term projects like King's Wharf (got to be hundreds of millions) and the 3 office towers on George Street plus International Place, Salter, and many others. Still, $6.5B seems like a lot, although these buildings are not going up overnight and some will not be built ever.

I suspect the job number is so high because it counts one year of employment as a "job". In other words, if you have 250 people working on a construction site for 4 years it counts as 1000 jobs created. This is a reasonable way to look at it but shouldn't be confused with permanent full-time positions. They may also consider a single contractor employee coming in to do work a job. I don't believe they mean that 1000 people will be paid for full time work for the duration of the construction.

$1,600 is very easy for me to imagine even over a 3 day period. Keep in mind that these people are also paying for the conventions themselves (some goes to the venue), they're going out to dinner, paying for taxis ($120 return from the airport :(), and then they have their flight and hotel.

Tim Bousquet and many others are very very defeatist. He has an article up in The Coast about how Nova Scotia is naturally poor and how people should just give up on trying to attract business. The reality is that the province has pretty much average advantages and can be just as successful as other places. Nova Scotia's biggest disadvantage is that it has too many whiners, not the it has a lack of natural resources (why is Boston so wealthy? Secret gold mines?) or "rugged climate" (Hello? Alberta?) or the other BS in that article.

[Buckey]

The Auditor-General does not offer prospective opinions. Or at least they shouldn't if they want to have a shred of credibility and objectivity left down the road when they might be asked to review something in relation to said project.

For a smart guy, it's funny you don't know such things.

Id rather dissect the patient now rather that look back many years down the road to find out we didnt have all the information. Jumping in blindly on Hype with our tax dollars is unwise.

[Buckey]

I think that a good comparison is the Ottawa convention centre and the big increase in bookings that they have seen. The Halifax area and Nova Scotia do well in the tourism sector, so the HRM and province are expanding a business that they can succeed at.

Buckey - I don't know where these numbers are coming from that you quoted - could you provide a source? I read that it was 1200 construction jobs.

IM quoting the presentation on the WTCC site and the original articles on the feasibility also at the WTCC site. However the media and peopl all over the place were quoting 28,000 jobs and not bothering top mention that was man years.

[Buckey]

Even those who are very wise to development projects here on this site and on this thread who have done a good job of analysing the economic impact numbers still seems confused by the jobs number.

SO Like HalifaxBoys who dissected the $1,600 a stay number and I think that is on the high end I found the jobs number absolutely ridiculous but so many everywhere took that number as stated. So in looking at the feasibility studies and the presentation just released This is the Number. Construction over 2-3 years will create 1,000 -1,200 jobs. After that about 1,200 NEW Jobs will be created. The 28,000 number is man years over 10 years and that number is 12,000 INCREMENTAL man years over the ten years. One would assume that is on some sort of increasing scale.

I am not by any means diminishing the impact of 1,200 jobs. The devil is in the details. My concern is about the details on what we are paying for now and in the future and what we are paying for along the way in terms of a dually owned facility of some sort.

Are we paying $160 million for a ground floor or two of convention space ? I am not ready to endorse a project YET. YOu see I may flip flop completely when I see the details.

I was completely reversed on the CWG. Initially and inituatively it was a no brainer - Infrastructure improvements to rec facilities and a great opportunity. The CWG committe went quiet and pissed away $12 Million and the costs ballooned. I then was completely against the CWG

[fenwick16]

Nobody can say that this will be a "sure thing" but there are probably fewer risks than with many other ventures. I believe that the new convention centre will be able to generate $10 - $12 million per year in direct revenue (the current centre is generating $6 million). The yearly expenses including amortization that I heard were about $13.2 million per year for the 2 levels of government - HRM and Nova Scotia ( http://thechronicleherald.ca/Front/1205634.html ). So potentially there could be a couple of million dollars per year shortfall. But if it could even generate 500 new jobs per year (including construction jobs) then that loss would only be $2,000,000/500 jobs = $4,000 per job generated per year. However, additional money will be generated from the personal income tax on those jobs generated. Also money will be generated from the HST. At worst, the province and HRM won't gain any money on the deal but could possibly generate 500 jobs or more. In my opinion, that is an important function of the 3 levels of government. If they can do it and break even overall then they are doing a good job, in my opinion.

[worldlyhaligonian]

lol, the fact that the term "man years" has not been protested itself is amazing.

Aside from the comedy, from an economics perspective... the jobs number is more significant when examined in terms of spinoff. Sure, these are all positions (regardless of unit of measure) directly created. Yet, what is being ingored is what I believe to be the value for Argyle Street. I think it will become an even better street and it will be interesting to see weekend conferences go to the various venues across the street on Argyle.

Contrary to HT/STV propaganda, there is no evidence to show that increased foot traffic and density in an area is in any way neutral/negative to a business within close proximity to said area. I think the Carleton stands to gain a signficant amount of business from trade show side meetings and after meeting drinks.

I would say the average amount that somebody spends locally is about what it has been stated to be. If the conference or trade show is really big, there will be other hotels rented. I have seen this from industrial equipment shows.

Right now (and since the shitty Herald Building) Argyle is a wasteland and we are getting 2/3 of the money to do this project from sources other than HRM!

It has a legit open air atirum a street up! This is an amazing project/deal. The fact that it blends will with Purdy's and 1801 and fills out that part of the skyline from both views (because its not blocking anything except Iriving Oil) is just a bonus!

:awesome: :banana:

I've never used the awesome banana before.

[eastcoastal]

... Yet, what is being ingored is what I believe to be the value for Argyle Street. I think it will become an even better street and it will be interesting to see weekend conferences go to the various venues across the street on Argyle. ...

I feel as though in order to do some good for Argyle St., that is where the at-grade retail focus should be.

[Wishblade]

News is out in the chronicle herald that Darrell Dexter will make the announcement today on whether his government will support the convention centre.

link: http://thechronicleherald.ca/Front/9018222.html

[halifaxboyns]

Well it all comes down to today.
Odds on a thumbs up anyone?

[fenwick16]

Well it all comes down to today.
Odds on a thumbs up anyone?

:tup: :tup: By announcing the decision early people will have a chance to participate in public meetings and give ideas on how to improve the design. For example: in order to have a more visible building above ground would people want to sacrifice the Grafton Street pedway? Possibly the building height could even be reduced but with the same square footage - if this would appease some people. Maybe the design could even be simplified to save money. These are just random suggestions - I would be happy with it as it is.

[hoser111]

From the Chronicle Herald:


Premier Darrell Dexter gave the green light to a new downtown Halifax convention centre this afternoon, to the delight of many in the business community, but the chagrin of heritage advocates and other opponents.

The $159-million centre is part of a bigger project by developer Rank Inc. that includes an office tower and hotel. The total price tag is close to $500 million.

Taxpayers would be on the hook for the convention centre portion.

Ottawa will be asked to pay about $47 million in a lump sum when the project would be mostly finished, now scheduled for 2014.

Officials said at a briefing last week that the province and Halifax Regional Municipality would cover the rest of the cost in a 25-year capital lease.

The annual lease payment would be $10.2 million, plus another $2.9 million in annual maintenance and upgrade costs.

The project will be built on the former Halifax Herald Ltd. property.

Supporters say the convention centre will give downtown Halifax a much-needed economic shot in the arm. Opponents question whether there's enough convention business around to warrant the expense, and are concerned the towers with the project will affect protected viewplanes from Citadel Hill to Halifax Harbour.

[beyeas]

and now we do the dance of joy!

[MonctonRad]

Congratulations!

Hopefully this will be first of several major announcements for downtown Halifax. :tup: :notacrook:

[cormiermax]

FINALLY!!! :banana: :banana: :banana:

[fenwick16]

Great news!! This is a step in the right direction. Here is a link to the Chronicle Herald story - http://thechronicleherald.ca/Front/9018222.html#comment-9446 . I see that Bruce DeVenne and other opposition voices (including all their pseudo-names) are out in full force letting it be known that they are opposed.

PS: There is also a poll at the end of the story. Right now it is about 2 to 1 in favour.

[DigitalNinja]

YEAH!! That's awesome!

So we can see it start in March then! Anyone know if they will start both buildings at the same time or one followed by the other?

[fenwick16]

YEAH!! That's awesome!

So we can see it start in March then! Anyone know if they will start both buildings at the same time or one followed by the other?

As part of the agreement Rank is required to build the hotel with the convention centre but not the office tower. However, Rank Inc. is on record a few days ago stating that they will proceed with the office tower at the same time.

[beyeas]

YEAH!! That's awesome!

So we can see it start in March then! Anyone know if they will start both buildings at the same time or one followed by the other?

According to an AllNS article last week they are only contractually obligated to building the hotel and convention centre. This was explained by the province that this is because it is only the CC that is publicly funded and the hotel is physically integral to it, but it does make on worry if they are leaving themselves the loophole to get out of the other tower.

I somehow doubt it though, because I actually would bet on at least one of the banks moving from their current location (RBC for example) and moving into the new office building.

[fenwick16]

Tim Bousquet at The Coast seems to have a whole series of long-winded articles planned: Part I - Why the convention centre sucks, part 1 - http://www.thecoast.ca/RealityBites/archives/2010/10/12/why-the-convention-centre-sucks-part-1

He has all of his cronies on-board. (excuse the sarcasm - is it too early for all in favour of the convention centre to gloat?):notacrook:

[beyeas]

Fearless prediction: they do not support it.

Thank god KeithP was wrong. Again. :whip:

Sorry Keith... couldn't resist :haha:

[beyeas]

(excuse the sarcasm - is it too early for all in favour of the convention centre to gloat?):notacrook:

Not at all!
:cheers:

[Phalanx]

Thank god KeithP was wrong. Again. :whip:

Sorry Keith... couldn't resist :haha:

Well, if you didn't say it, I was going to... :P :D

[David1gray]

FINALLY:cheers: :cheers:

cant wait to see this start moving forward!!

[sdm]

Congratulations!

Hopefully this will be first of several major announcements for downtown Halifax. :tup: :notacrook:

Well funny, Queens Landing was approved today as well.

[beyeas]

Well funny, Queens Landing was approved today as well.

Approved?

I remember reading that Waterfront Development had given it their nod, but I would assume this is still subject to HRMbD and associate rigamarole?

[fenwick16]

Well funny, Queens Landing was approved today as well.

This is another major development that got overlooked with all the development news happening. Will this include an expanded Maritime Museum? (maybe there will be some federal funding available). :cheers: Here to a bigger, better Halifax municipality!!!

[sdm]

Approved?

I remember reading that Waterfront Development had given it their nod, but I would assume this is still subject to HRMbD and associate rigamarole?

Province approved it, and now only needs to be put through HRM by Design.

[sdm]

This is another major development that got overlooked with all the development news happening. Will this include an expanded Maritime Museum? (maybe there will be some federal funding available). :cheers: Here to a bigger, better Halifax municipality!!!

From what it reads the public section is still under review. There is reason to believe there is no public money for it. Pretty sad since it was originally brought out in 2005.

[Buckey]

I will try not to be too flippant but let make a comparison. I have a house to build - three stories. Im gonna get you to make the 1/3 downpayment and live in the basement and pay the mortage. yes you are you buds will get some spinoffs but you also gotta pay the bills to run the place. we goona do this gig for 25 years and then I won it. Bwahahah

Why is the entire world ignoring the fact we are building and paying for someone else's building. This could be worse than the entire p3 all put together

[beyeas]

From what it reads the public section is still under review. There is reason to believe there is no public money for it. Pretty sad since it was originally brought out in 2005.

yeah it was notable that the release I read only talked about the hotel etc, but not the public space. I would love to see something done with the Sackville, and have it brought inside and protected I remember back in 2005 they talked about having a structure built over it, and then having the walls such that they could be projected upon and people could get a feeling for what it was like for the convoys being attacked. Seemed like an interesting sort of exhibit!

[sdm]

I will try not to be too flippant but let make a comparison. I have a house to build - three stories. Im gonna get you to make the 1/3 downpayment and live in the basement and pay the mortage. yes you are you buds will get some spinoffs but you also gotta pay the bills to run the place. we goona do this gig for 25 years and then I won it. Bwahahah

Why is the entire world ignoring the fact we are building and paying for someone else's building. This could be worse than the entire p3 all put together

Still need federal and HRM support yet

[fenwick16]

I will try not to be too flippant but let make a comparison. I have a house to build - three stories. Im gonna get you to make the 1/3 downpayment and live in the basement and pay the mortage. yes you are you buds will get some spinoffs but you also gotta pay the bills to run the place. we goona do this gig for 25 years and then I won it. Bwahahah

Why is the entire world ignoring the fact we are building and paying for someone else's building. This could be worse than the entire p3 all put together

It is being termed as a capital lease. Based on my understanding, the province and HRM will own it after the end of 25 years. In this case, capital lease can mean that the lessee will own it at the end of 25 years. (However, you might want to contact the province and confirm this).

(source: http://www.investorwords.com/722/capital_lease.html )

capital lease

Definition
A lease that meets one or more of the following criteria, meaning it is classified as a purchase by the lessee: the lease term is greater than 75% of the property's estimated economic life; the lease contains an option to purchase the property for less than fair market value; ownership of the property is transferred to the lessee at the end of the lease term; or the present value of the lease payments exceeds 90% of the fair market value of the property.

[Phalanx]

yeah it was notable that the release I read only talked about the hotel etc, but not the public space. I would love to see something done with the Sackville, and have it brought inside and protected I remember back in 2005 they talked about having a structure built over it, and then having the walls such that they could be projected upon and people could get a feeling for what it was like for the convoys being attacked. Seemed like an interesting sort of exhibit!

Covering the Sackville and having it as a year-round exhibit would be nice, but expensive. ...It would have been nice if they had the money/room to save the Fraser as well. It was historically significant being the last of the first class designed and built in Canada... but that's a different topic entirely.

[Buckey]

I am trying desperately to determine who owns it at the end of the term. NO idea actually given the way they played with the numbers I would not be comfortable relying on their correct use of lease terminogy.

Just nervous about jumping into this just because devanne and the heritage group are against it. Like to see more info

[sdm]

I am trying desperately to determine who owns it at the end of the term. NO idea actually given the way they played with the numbers I would not be comfortable relying on their correct use of lease terminogy.

Just nervous about jumping into this just because devanne and the heritage group are against it. Like to see more info

Since there is so many parties involved i was told the developer owns it.

[beyeas]

I will try not to be too flippant but let make a comparison. I have a house to build - three stories. Im gonna get you to make the 1/3 downpayment and live in the basement and pay the mortage. yes you are you buds will get some spinoffs but you also gotta pay the bills to run the place. we goona do this gig for 25 years and then I won it. Bwahahah

Why is the entire world ignoring the fact we are building and paying for someone else's building. This could be worse than the entire p3 all put together

Because the difference is that you are not going to be generating increased consumption and property and business taxes to offset my costs such that I get a new home with revenue largely (if not entirely) offsetting the costs of my mortgage payment. On the other hand I could own it all on my own, and yes I would own the asset, but I would also be short most of the revenue streams.

Why is the entire world ignoring the fact that multiple sources and looked at the business plan for this, but seem to prefer to ignore the other half of the ledger?

I know you genuinely asking the question and not just being an HT wingnut... so sorry for my flippant response as well.
Not really directed at you or your question, just frustrated with some of the HT folks also trying to manipulate #s in their favour (as in Epstein's "mistake")

[Buckey]

I am not a development or convention expert so I cannot intelligently argue the numbers. I can question the final out come of thr building and would like to see a more detailed breakout of what Rank pays for and gets and what we pay for an get. I understand he may not have to commit to the tower or one of the towers or something.

Here is irony that the this site
http://conventioncentreinfo.com/
has the recent presentation and some past News releases with feasibility studies and such but the discussion forum is now closed. I would think that now its time for us the taxpayer to open our wallets might be a goiod time to chat this up a bit.

I am trying to educate myself on this more but Coast comparisons to Ottawa and wingnut BD's links to Vancouver articles - well they make you go HUMMMMMMM is this CC really the right play in its current ownership structure now?

[Dmajackson]

:banana::awesome::dancing: :multibow: :dancing::awesome::banana:

I just wanted to through in my agreement with the Dexter government on this one.

[DigitalNinja]

I am not a development or convention expert so I cannot intelligently argue the numbers. I can question the final out come of thr building and would like to see a more detailed breakout of what Rank pays for and gets and what we pay for an get. I understand he may not have to commit to the tower or one of the towers or something.

Here is irony that the this site
http://conventioncentreinfo.com/
has the recent presentation and some past News releases with feasibility studies and such but the discussion forum is now closed. I would think that now its time for us the taxpayer to open our wallets might be a goiod time to chat this up a bit.

I am trying to educate myself on this more but Coast comparisons to Ottawa and wingnut BD's links to Vancouver articles - well they make you go HUMMMMMMM is this CC really the right play in its current ownership structure now?

Your first mistake is reading the Coast.

[beyeas]

Thanks for having my back on the CH site Halifaxboyns ;-) LOL

[Buckey]

I have been to the coast website maybe ten times in my life. With all of the conflicting and confusing info I went there to see if they had diseected it any better CTV just reported the $6 million per year outlay for each province and City and we DO NOT own it at the end. he also confirms the 47 million fed money on day one its finished. The one thing still overlooked is the annual operatinf deficit so lets add 2 -3 -4 -5 Million a year to that.

[sdm]

I have been to the coast website maybe ten times in my life. With all of the conflicting and confusing info I went there to see if they had diseected it any better CTV just reported the $6 million per year outlay for each province and City and we DO NOT own it at the end. he also confirms the 47 million fed money on day one its finished. The one thing still overlooked is the annual operatinf deficit so lets add 2 -3 -4 -5 Million a year to that.

add to this the old centre, which we still do not know what will happen to it. If the city takes it, which i believe from the news is in the works then the city is going to be carrying that operating costs as well.

This deal is getting more and more interesting by the minute.

[Canadian_Bacon]

They were talking about this on CBC tonight. Along with Queens landing going ahead with a March, April start date (At least a demolition start.) As well, they talked about the MacDonald Bridge refurbishment with that expected to go ahead in 2015. They also had a guy from AllNS.com talking about the convention center. He made some good points. I can't remember what his name was. I think it was Kevin Cox, but I can't remember.

I'd give more detail, but I have to go to work in like 5 minutes.

[Keith P.]

Thank god KeithP was wrong. Again. :whip:

Sorry Keith... couldn't resist :haha:

Don't mind being wrong on this one. But you can see why I was faked out by the Birkenstock brigade that makes up the NDP core, since they are all fiercely opposed to this. Another MLA has spoken out against it (too bad the party whips won't force them to toe the party line or get out), and the left-wingers are flipping out at the Coast and elsewhere because they are spending money on something designed to grow the economy instead of pouring it down the welfare/health care sinkhole.

We'll see if the govt's resolve lasts thru the endless rounds of public hearings, media flagellation, etc.

[halifaxboyns]

Thanks for having my back on the CH site Halifaxboyns ;-) LOL

Anytime.

I absolutely cannot STAND this whole can't do attitude in Halifax. Like someone said on the CH site, we can't do concerts, can't do a convention centre, can't do bridges, can't do transit.

My god, shut up and stop complaining people. UGH!
(Can you tell i'm having a bad day?) Why can't people put forward an idea then? Is that so hard? Yes we have a defecit and yes we have debt - who doesn't. It's not good and it has to be dealt with - I agree with that. But you can't deal with debt unless you have good levels of income and with the population trend in NS being that more people will be in retirement versus working - that's going to be a problem. Interest rates are not going to be this low forever but while they are - we should take advantage of them to some extent.

Besides, no one for certain can say that this project is going to fail (just as no one can say it will succeed). Some on the CH posted that without the Metro Centre we would never host the events and concerts we do there because the forum was too small and no one complains about that anymore - that is very true. If this puts Halifax on the same market level competition as Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver even a couple of convention that go to these larger markets come to Halifax - the spin off could be big (need for more hotel rooms, increased tourism as a spin off to attending the conference, increased airline capacity and new flights, etc.).

[halifaxboyns]

Don't mind being wrong on this one. But you can see why I was faked out by the Birkenstock brigade that makes up the NDP core, since they are all fiercely opposed to this. Another MLA has spoken out against it (too bad the party whips won't force them to toe the party line or get out), and the left-wingers are flipping out at the Coast and elsewhere because they are spending money on something designed to grow the economy instead of pouring it down the welfare/health care sinkhole.

We'll see if the govt's resolve lasts thru the endless rounds of public hearings, media flagellation, etc.

Total agree with the party whip comment. Frankly; the NS NDP has failed for me on this. When I lived in Halifax, I was a stonch orange. I helped the NDP wherever I could. Not anymore. If they aren't prepared to use the party whip and put all the ministers in line - then I have no faith in them. This isn't time for people like Epstein and others to speak their minds - the leader has made up his mind. Shut up and fall in line or get out.

Oh how I long for the days of the firing squad...oh to dream lol.

[fenwick16]

I have been to the coast website maybe ten times in my life. With all of the conflicting and confusing info I went there to see if they had diseected it any better CTV just reported the $6 million per year outlay for each province and City and we DO NOT own it at the end. he also confirms the 47 million fed money on day one its finished. The one thing still overlooked is the annual operatinf deficit so lets add 2 -3 -4 -5 Million a year to that.

Here is a link to the article http://news.sympatico.ctv.ca/canada/nova_scotia_offers_1635_million_to_help_fund_halifax_convention_centre/0c7fd91d . It is difficult to confirm if Rank Inc. really will take ownership at the end of 25 years - this might just be added by the author of the article. Since various terms can exist with a lease it is difficult to say what the terms are. At the end of 25 years the province might only be required to pay a small amount to purchase it. In any event, the convention centre isn't going anywhere - at the end of 25 years the province might prefer to have Rank Inc. or some other private company run it. The province would still get the benefit of the jobs and HST.

Many people decide to lease new cars, apartments and offices since it is cheaper than buying them outright. I have to assume that the province will decide whether leasing or buying it outright is the best option. If the province wanted the option to buy and Rank Inc. didn't offer that option then the province could have just walked away from the deal. I don't think anyone is forcing the province into a deal that they don't want. In fact the NDP has set the terms of the deal so that there are no payments until after the next election.

The $2 million - $3 million additional operating cost that you mentioned is all included in the annual cost (including the capital lease). Since convention centres generate direct revenue, most of the revenue will come from conventions booked at the convention center. But even if there is a shortfall, the province can still recover money from HST on convention goers who would not be in the province otherwise.

[JustinMacD]

Can everyone please email CBC with their support for this project. It'll be the topic of tomorrow's piece on the news where they read emails and phone calls for the certain topic.

I think their address is cbcns@cbc.ca.

The topic was "Do you support the decision to build the convention centre?". Knowing CBC, they'll probably only play the anti-development emails/phone calls.

[sdm]

Here is a link to the article http://news.sympatico.ctv.ca/canada/nova_scotia_offers_1635_million_to_help_fund_halifax_convention_centre/0c7fd91d . It is difficult to confirm if Rank Inc. really will take ownership at the end of 25 years - this might just be added by the author of the article. Since various terms can exist with a lease it is difficult to say what the terms are. At the end of 25 years the province might only be required to pay a small amount to purchase it. In any event, the convention centre isn't going anywhere - at the end of 25 years the province might prefer to have Rank Inc. or some other private company run it. The province would still get the benefit of the jobs and HST.

Many people decide to lease new cars, apartments and offices since it is cheaper than buying them outright. I have to assume that the province will decide whether leasing or buying it outright is the best option. If the province wanted the option to buy and Rank Inc. didn't offer that option then the province could have just walked away from the deal. I don't think anyone is forcing the province into a deal that they don't want. In fact the NDP has set the terms of the deal so that there are no payments until after the next election.

The $2 million - $3 million additional operating cost that you mentioned is all included in the annual cost (including the capital lease). Since convention centres generate direct revenue, most of the revenue will come from conventions booked at the convention center. But even if there is a shortfall, the province can still recover money from HST on convention goers who would not be in the province otherwise.

Rank owns it after 25 years.

Overheard a councilor on CBC stating that the next hurdle is the deal dexter has made requires the city to take the old centre. Since the city renewed there leases just this year for an additional 10 years, and subsequently own there offices in alderney landing i'd say this is going to be interesting detail as the future use is still unknown. It would be a terrible deal to have the city take the old centre and have no use.

[beyeas]

Don't mind being wrong on this one. But you can see why I was faked out by the Birkenstock brigade that makes up the NDP core, since they are all fiercely opposed to this. Another MLA has spoken out against it (too bad the party whips won't force them to toe the party line or get out), and the left-wingers are flipping out at the Coast and elsewhere because they are spending money on something designed to grow the economy instead of pouring it down the welfare/health care sinkhole.

We'll see if the govt's resolve lasts thru the endless rounds of public hearings, media flagellation, etc.

You know what? I actually agree with you.

It is time for the government to man up and push through things to improve the development situation in Halifax, rather than kow-tow to the HT wingnuts.

Plus... people go up a notch in my books when they admit they were wrong. :-P Maybe I should cut you a break on something sometime. LOL

[fenwick16]

Rank owns it after 25 years.

Overheard a councilor on CBC stating that the next hurdle is the deal dexter has made requires the city to take the old centre. Since the city renewed there leases just this year for an additional 10 years, and subsequently own there offices in alderney landing i'd say this is going to be interesting detail as the future use is still unknown. It would be a terrible deal to have the city take the old centre and have no use.

But is that bad? In 25 years the municipality might want a larger convention centre (or possibly smaller). Then they won't be stuck with a convention centre that they might not want. It is no different than the municipality and province leasing office space. I don't think that they own any of the buildings that they lease space in. That is an obvious statement on my part - but leasing or owning is a business decision and quite often the province decides to lease.

Regarding the current WTCC - it has served its purpose. If the province or municipality don't want it then they can tear it down and turn it into a park. Or hang onto it and build a bigger better Metro Centre in 10 years time with 15,000 seats. I read that all the province wanted in return for the old WTCC was a land swap. Isn't it basically all owned by the same people anyway (the HRM is part of the province of Nova Scotia).

PS: The municipality won't have to take it over for another 3 - 4 years once the new convention centre is complete - by that time they can find a use for it. In the meantime it will continue to generate revenue.

[sdm]

But is that bad? In 25 years the municipality might want a larger convention centre (or possibly smaller). Then they won't be stuck with a convention centre that they might not want. It is no different than the municipality and province leasing office space. I don't think that they own any of the buildings that they lease space in. That is an obvious statement on my part - but leasing or owning is a business decision and quite often the province decides to lease.
).

Well in most captial leases the leasee owns the property. So after 25 years, and not factoring in inflation (a dollar today is not worth as much as a dollar tomorrow) the province and city will foot a total of 325 million for something that would cost only 159?

Herein i bet becomes the problem for the Federal Government, in that they are putting 47 million into this in one lump sum with no ownership afterwards.

I am additionally concerned about the Federal government only required to give this lump sum payment in 2014 or after completion. There has many of times in the history of Nova Scotia where the federal government has not come through, and if that was to become the case what happens then? I rather see the lump sum now, at least then one can feel comfortable.

[fenwick16]

Rank owns it after 25 years.

Overheard a councilor on CBC stating that the next hurdle is the deal dexter has made requires the city to take the old centre. Since the city renewed there leases just this year for an additional 10 years, and subsequently own there offices in alderney landing i'd say this is going to be interesting detail as the future use is still unknown. It would be a terrible deal to have the city take the old centre and have no use.

Would the councilor on CBC be one of the ones who is against the new convention centre?

It is time for the HRM and province to take a chance and move forward. The convention centre would be a good step forward. The majority of people want to see progress.

[sdm]

PS: The municipality won't have to take it over for another 3 - 4 years once the new convention centre is complete - by that time they can find a use for it. In the meantime it will continue to generate revenue.

Fair enough, but the centre does not generate revenue. Look at the financial reports, it shows an annual revenue of 2-3 million. That is rent collected from the office tenants within the centre, which i will add are provincial agency tenants. In other words this an accounting "slight of hand" in that the province is paying itself.

[sdm]

Would the councilor on CBC be one of the ones who is against the new convention centre?

It is time for the HRM and province to take a chance and move forward. The convention centre would be a good step forward. The majority of people want to see progress.

Counicilor Outwit. It appeared he wasn't against it, but is concerned that the deal the city will be asked to accept will include taking the old building over, which in his opinion he was lead to believe the city would have no up front cost.

I bet Kelly tries to state the former trade centre will then become the new performing arts centre.

[Wishblade]

I just read a comment on CBC that was so outrageous and funny I just had to post it. I can't believe theres actually people out there like this :haha: :


Convention Centre another Government White (Pink) Elephant!!

I am just devastated as are countless others who have campaigned so hard against this bad idea (in all ways)!!. What is wrong with this friggin' NDP government? I thought they would be different. They've approved this project that will suck millions from taxpayers in the whole province who are sick of the cozying up of government with the developer hustlers. This is going to destroy the feeling of Halifax that tourists, students, artists, visitors, nature lovers and responsible citizens love( see the image of the this project superimposed on a picture of present downtown on "Save the View"; lose tons of money (People don't choose Halifax for big corporate conventions; they choose Vancouver, Toronto, or Banff!) and be a huge burden on taxpayers. Why is NS trying to emulate these bigger centres when people come here specifically to see the human scale walking; heritage buildings; the cool quirkiness of that downtown core with its art boutiques; view; old buildings; neat restaurants, etc. I thought the days of the white (pink) elephants coming out of political back room deals would be over with the NDP. People are sick of ugly Maritime Mall, Tower Residence (Wolfville), Fenwick Towers, Railtown (Wolfville) hustled uglifying all that we love in this province. In electing governments with these types of candidates, we, the people have created the monster that is destroying everything we cherish. For what? To increase the girth of these fat cats who can only see dollar signs before their eyes. They stand for nothing but greed and bad taste. Where are the architects to protest this? Where is the group of professional thinkers, urban planners, designers, architects who can lead us out of these bad ideas?

Posted by jonilight3 on the CH.

[sdm]

i found this article and comments interesting as well.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/atlantic/halifax-asked-to-gamble-on-taxpayer-funded-convention-centre/article1746537/comments/

[Buckey]

I see a lot of pro CC folks.

so I amused myself on the lease idea, Class a office space is what $20/sq ft/yr - combined wh/office in burnside $10 or $12.

Lets ignore the $47 million upfront by the feds

$13,000,000 per year 120,000 square feet. Over $100 per square foot lease -
I need to see a lot more details. WE have a lot of other space and another new waterfront hotel coming and guess what a lot of conventions go to the hotels.

This does not pass the sniff test. 1,200 jobs most of which are min wage. Just doesnt do it for me spinoffs or not

[fenwick16]

Well in most captial leases the leasee owns the property. So after 25 years, and not factoring in inflation (a dollar today is not worth as much as a dollar tomorrow) the province and city will foot a total of 325 million for something that would cost only 159?

Herein i bet becomes the problem for the Federal Government, in that they are putting 47 million into this in one lump sum with no ownership afterwards.

I am additionally concerned about the Federal government only required to give this lump sum payment in 2014 or after completion. There has many of times in the history of Nova Scotia where the federal government has not come through, and if that was to become the case what happens then? I rather see the lump sum now, at least then one can feel comfortable.

Agreed - why doesn't the municipality and province pay it over the 3- 4 year construction period. They would save $19 million in interim interest payments (so the cost would only be $140 million) and they would probably get a better interest rate than Rank Inc. This is something that residents can decide over the next couple of months when the NDP said that they would make the final decision (January 14 2011, I believe). A good analogy would be for a person to pay for a new home over a period of a couple of years prior to moving in or paying a mortgage for 25 years. Many people would choose the 25 year mortgage so that a $200,000 home will often end up being at least $400,000 over 25 years (however, if they don't pay it off over the 2 year construction period then they have more money in their pockets to spend - same as the province).

[Buckey]

yeah with a mortgage on a house you get to own it at the end. This developer won a sweet deal.

[someone123]

i found this article and comments interesting as well.

I hate when this story is presented in terms of "Saving the Downtown" or (the Globe and Mail managed to make it even worse) "Saving Halifax". The parts of the article about the city declining are wrong. It's also wrong to say there haven't been cranes downtown in 20 year or to suggest that there are large empty storefronts on Spring Garden Road.

The real convention story is about the costs and benefits. The real story of the downtown comes down to multiple separate factors. The office space issue is related to competition with the suburbs. The storefront retail issue is not very closely connected and mostly would be corrected by more residents - it also does not affect very much of the core (75% Barrington).

[Buckey]

Can everyone please email CBC with their support for this project. It'll be the topic of tomorrow's piece on the news where they read emails and phone calls for the certain topic.

I think their address is cbcns@cbc.ca.

The topic was "Do you support the decision to build the convention centre?". Knowing CBC, they'll probably only play the anti-development emails/phone calls.

Show me the rest of the business case with a compelling reason to pay $100 a square foot for a center that will stay empty most of the time and when in use will fill up the developers hotel.

This needs a fully independent review. A comment at the globe by a CA was very wise - he said get a CA firm with no ties and no vested interest to review this = get the AG to review it NOW not later. Lets get some independent eyes on this deal.

[planarchy]

Show me the rest of the business case with a compelling reason to pay $100 a square foot for a center that will stay empty most of the time and when in use will fill up the developers hotel.

This needs a fully independent review. A comment at the globe by a CA was very wise - he said get a CA firm with no ties and no vested interest to review this = get the AG to review it NOW not later. Lets get some independent eyes on this deal.

Worst project in-the-pipeline in Halifax. I agree - full independent review is required. This is the sketchiest deal in a city known for sketchy closed-door deals. This is a poor use of public funds for nothing more than another bad P3 scheme. On top of that, we get a bad design in a worse location. This is prime real estate in the city - these blocks can easily be developed for a healthy profit without public funds.

Using public money to shoehorn a convention centre in a terribly limited site, to replace an already limited site, only demonstrates a lack of foresight, lack of planning skills, and that a few well connected people call all the shots. Dexter, you look like a fool without a clue. :koko: