PHILADELPHIA | American Commerce Center | 1,510' Pinnacle / 1,210' Roof | 63 FLOORS

[MiamiSpartan]

Undersized? I don't think so. Take a look at other cities with the same population or close to the same and I think Philly beats all of them out.

Philly has the 6th largest population in the country. While it is a very nice looking skyline, they've never really gone after height the way some smaller cities have...until Comcast and this proposal at least...
no negative meaning meant by this comment...

[Ltrain]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Yes! Build it! :D

[KillerIman]

i agree with miamispartan. its been a low-rise city, so the skyline has always looked compact. well, compared to newer cities.

its about time! :D :cheers:

[SJPhillyBoy]

Many people are comparing this to the first iterations of the Freedom Tower (I do agree there are similarities). Is it posible that we get some renderings of FT posted here to do a side by side comparison.

[williamphilapa]

:previous:


http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4203/nocomparewb8.png (http://imageshack.us)

[TechTalkGuy]

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4203/nocomparewb8.png (http://imageshack.us)

Oh gawsh, I remember that awful design.

I hope they redesign AAC so bad because the spire looks like the building is giving the Liberty Place the finger.

"Hah, I'm taller than you!!"

[Don098]

:previous:


http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4203/nocomparewb8.png (http://imageshack.us)

Awful? Why did everyone hate that design so much? It looks incredible! Look at the torque in that design! It looks like it's on the edge, ready to snap or something! It would have really made an announcement to the rest of the world, but NYC really screwed up by watering it down. The Freedom Tower looks totally uninspired now. Such a shame. At least the ACC has salvaged some of that foresight...

[APPRAISER]

:previous:


http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4203/nocomparewb8.png (http://imageshack.us)

I love this tower! I think, as an American, we need to start building more supertalls in our cities! We created the "Skyscraper", then the "Super tall", and know we are lagging behind...
I don't care what city in America, is building a "Super tall"! As long as we get the lead out of our asses, and start reaching more and more for the sky I will be happy.
After 9-11, the idea of more supertalls in the U.S. really came to a hault.

[Don098]

By the way!......The rendering on the left looks like the building twists a little.
It kinda reminds me of the old, "Freedom Tower design, with the new Waldorf Astoria design in Chicago?"

...wow, um...no comment :koko:

[williamphilapa]

I like the old FT design as well, not that I do not like the current design... I just like the old one better.

The only resemblence between the old FT design and the ACC is the spire on the edge instead of center.

[bluemartini]

I thought the old Freedom Tower design was cool and inspired. The new FT doesn't look all the special to me.

[winxs]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7862277@N05/2348112781/I like the spire. It looks like they took a slice out of the Northwest top corner of the building, inverted it, and stuck it on top of the Southeast. This chamfered slice looks a bit like a lightening bolt from the sides. Hey, I just thought of something.......Ben Franklin's kite experiment - lightning bolt.... in Philadelphia*..... I wonder if that was intentional?:rolleyes:


(* supposedly June 15, 1752 in Philly... probably never happened, though:shrug: )

[apetrella802]

the two triangular slices cut out on the corner, mirror or suggest the shape of the spire on top. So that shape appears three times, the first triangular cut points upward the second downward and the third, the spire itself points into the sky.

[williamphilapa]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7862277@N05/2348112781/I like the spire. It looks like they took a slice out of the Northwest top corner of the building, inverted it, and stuck it on top of the Southeast. This chamfered slice looks a bit like a lightening bolt from the sides. Hey, I just thought of something.......Ben Franklin's kite experiment - lightning bolt.... in Philadelphia*..... I wonder if that was intentional?:rolleyes:
(* supposedly June 15, 1752 in Philly... probably never happened, though:shrug: )

:previous:

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/1064/boltbz8.png (http://imageshack.us)

[skyscraper]

(* supposedly June 15, 1752 in Philly... probably never happened, though:shrug: )

don't know why you'd say that. it really did happen, it's just the location that is in question, but it certainly happened in the philadelphia area. some say it was in bensalem.
franklin's findings are well documented. there was however a group of french scientists (who else) who claimed that they discovered electricity before franklin, but that franklin probably would not have known of their experiments and do not claim that he ripped them off.
they probably independently discovered it roughly at the same time without knowledge of each other.

[apetrella802]

yes, the yellow highlighting that in your rendering suggests a bolt of lightning is a step in starting to make what might appear at first to be a little awkward and arbitrary design seem in fact to be a very conscious use of acute angles executed in glass to achieve dramatic effect. The combined effect of the lower and upper triangles , the hexagonal roof and the spire itself are all related to each other in that they help define and modulate the vertical extention of the tower unlike say the old WTC buildings which were tall rigidly retangular boxes that loomed blandly over their more interesting neighbors.

[winxs]

don't know why you'd say that. it really did happen, it's just the location that is in question, but it certainly happened in the philadelphia area. some say it was in bensalem.
franklin's findings are well documented. there was however a group of french scientists (who else) who claimed that they discovered electricity before franklin, but that franklin probably would not have known of their experiments and do not claim that he ripped them off.
they probably independently discovered it roughly at the same time without knowledge of each other.

I thought it was true too, but I did a quick little netsearching before I posted. I wanted to make sure it *did* happen in Philly and not up in Boston or somewhere else. I found about six different sites (including Wikipedia) that claim that the research was true but the actual events were a myth. That includes the Mythbusters (http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2006/03/franklins_kite_flatulence.html)on Discovery Channel who evidently did an episode (http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2006/03/franklins_kite_flatulence.html)on it. They reasoned that Ben's kite could fly during a thunderstorm, that an electrical charge could travel down the string and spark the key, but the charge would have been lethal to whomever touched the key.

And now back to the American Commerce Center....

[sono65]

Holy crap, Philly is booming!! I'm so jealous of such an amazing project. WOW!
You guys should be proud!. Stand tall Philly!! Stand Tall!!:worship:

[McBane]

i agree with miamispartan. its been a low-rise city, so the skyline has always looked compact. well, compared to newer cities.

its about time! :D :cheers:

Not necessarily. Ever see the skylines of San Jose, Phoenix, Vegas, Tampa, or Jacksonville? And is LA's skyline indicative of a city of 3+ million? What about Chicago? What does its skyline say about its size? Is it proportional or does it make Chi-town feel bigger than it really is? Does it matter that cities like Houston or Atlanta have large skylines but their CBD's are surrounded by freeways, parking lots, and single homes with backyards?

See my point?

[APPRAISER]

...wow, um...no comment :koko:

Don098, don't be an insulting fool on this forum!! As you can tell I edited my statements shorly after because I did notice the picture on the left was the World Trade Center!
What are 10 years old!?

[SJPhillyBoy]

:previous:


http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4203/nocomparewb8.png (http://imageshack.us)

Thank you very much for fufilling my request. You are doing a fantastic job with the renderings.
I think that version of the Freedom Tower is beautiful. I am fine that ACC looks like that rendering of the FT. I thought people were referring to the crumpled over looking version. They are similar, but ACC is a different building with different ques, plus the addition of the hotel cube attached to the base. ACC will be refined, I am sure, as we get closer to construction.

[sciguy0504]

I was trying to come up with some prospective large tenents: Vanguard? A major phamaceutical (all NJ-based)? What about Verizon (very ugly HQ building in NYC) or Wachovia? Sovereign Bank (currently based in Reading of all places)? Someone else mentioned on a previous page that since NASDAQ is buying the Philly exchange it might be interested in a major presence here? US Airways?

Any other possibilities?

[skyscraper]

I was trying to come up with some prospective large tenents: Vanguard? A major phamaceutical (all NJ-based)? What about Verizon (very ugly HQ building in NYC) or Wachovia? Sovereign Bank (currently based in Reading of all places)? Someone else mentioned on a previous page that since NASDAQ is buying the Philly exchange it might be interested in a major presence here? US Airways?

Any other possibilities?

is it nasdaq or the american stock exchange that is trying to buy the philly exchange? if it is the amex, might that be an explanation of the building's name?
and I think the building is probably big enough to hold at least 2 of the companies/company types you mentioned. it would not be out of the realm of possibility for it to house a major bank and pharmaceutical company, plus the stock exchange, with room to spare. 2.2 million sf is a lot of real estate.

[Don098]

Don098, don't be an insulting fool on this forum!! As you can tell I edited my statements shorly after because I did notice the picture on the left was the World Trade Center!
What are 10 years old!?

I'm sorry that it offended you. I'm sure it was an honest mistake on your part, but you have to be able to laugh at yourself, too! I wrote that post two minutes after yours posted because I was already online admiring the old proposal of the Freedom Tower. Peace? Sorry again.

[theWatusi]

It would be nice if Merck would move over from their HQ in NJ. They would be a lot closer to their West Point facility. (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=lansdale+pa&ie=UTF8&ll=40.215079,-75.299413&spn=0.007472,0.021501&t=h&z=16&iwloc=addr)

It would also bring me a lot of business with all of their employees relocating :banana:

[scalziand]

is it nasdaq or the american stock exchange that is trying to buy the philly exchange? if it is the amex, might that be an explanation of the building's name?
and I think the building is probably big enough to hold at least 2 of the companies/company types you mentioned. it would not be out of the realm of possibility for it to house a major bank and pharmaceutical company, plus the stock exchange, with room to spare. 2.2 million sf is a lot of real estate.

Keep in mind that only about 1.3 million sf of the tower is office- the rest will be the hotel and other uses.

[donybrx]

is it nasdaq or the american stock exchange that is trying to buy the philly exchange? if it is the amex, might that be an explanation of the building's name?
and I think the building is probably big enough to hold at least 2 of the companies/company types you mentioned. it would not be out of the realm of possibility for it to house a major bank and pharmaceutical company, plus the stock exchange, with room to spare. 2.2 million sf is a lot of real estate.

I'd say that the proposed name (ACC) is largely marketing technique, just as "World Trade Center" was in NYC at it's origination (before the State ultimately had to lease much of it owing to bad timing in a then-poor real estate market). That's not to say that a major tenant or two might not be in the wings.

These monikkers are meant to capture the imagination, and the tenants.....I think that "American Commerce Center" has a pretty good ring to it....

[DetroitSky]

I can't believe I'm just seeing this now for the first time. Great news for Philly.

[APPRAISER]

I'm sorry that it offended you. I'm sure it was an honest mistake on your part, but you have to be able to laugh at yourself, too! I wrote that post two minutes after yours posted because I was already online admiring the old proposal of the Freedom Tower. Peace? Sorry again.

No problem, I appreciate it!:tup:

Cheers!!:cheers:

[skyscraper]

I'd say that the proposed name (ACC) is largely marketing technique, just as "World Trade Center" was in NYC at it's origination (before the State ultimately had to lease much of it owing to bad timing in a then-poor real estate market). That's not to say that a major tenant or two might not be in the wings.

These monikkers are meant to capture the imagination, and the tenants.....I think that "American Commerce Center" has a pretty good ring to it....

the world trade center was originally conceived as a massive complex for importers and exporters. at the beginning it was largely that, with the state also leasing a great deal of space, but of course it didn't stay that way. so it wasn't just a marketing gimmick, it really was descriptive.
that said, you might be right about ACC, I was just throwing it out there as a possibility.

[CoolCzech]

It looks like the Freedom Tower...

http://cll.bizjournals.com/story_image/112914-400-0.jpg?rev=2

[We Got Five]

Vanguard is not a possibility - they have a fortress in Malvern, they're not moving. Verizon? Sure, why not, it's logical. Would Verizon sell the land to a developer knowing they plan to move their empire here? Or is Comcast involved somehow...they do need ALOT more space.

The stock exchange is an interesting possibility. USAirways? I'm not so sure. They're headquartered in Tempe, but it's clear they view Philadelphia as their international gateway. I could see them move some operations to Philadelphia, but not the whole corporation.

If I'm WSC, I'm targeting banking/financial services. If only Lincoln would have held out a few more months...

I will say this - we (meaning the city) have a wonderful opportunity in front of us. If the right players are involved in the ACC, we'll have a positive domino effect that will last for decades. :tup:

[kraggman]

Would the developers change the name of the building if a big-time tenant signed on to occupy a huge chunk of space??

[Steely Dan]

Would the developers change the name of the building if a big-time tenant signed on to occupy a huge chunk of space??

hell yeah they would. most developers would change the name of their first born child if it meant landing an anchor tenant for their project.

[McBane]

the architects have also designed supertalls in hong kong and shanghai. the one in hong kong is the international commerce center and shanghai has the shanghai financial center. american commerce center seems to be playing on that brand for its supertalls. keep in mind that arc wheeler of 10 ritt uses the "10" brand to denote its flagship residential buildings (also has 10 inner harbor).

is it a coincidence since architects don't normally name buildings? i'm pretty sure the developers aren't connected.

[winxs]

USAirways? I'm not so sure. They're headquartered in Tempe, but it's clear they view Philadelphia as their international gateway. I could see them move some operations to Philadelphia, but not the whole corporation.


Actually, USAirways announced (http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/business&id=5988376) they are creating a Regional Headquarters in Philly, but only moving about 10 people here from Tempe. They will probably all be based down at the airport.

[skyscraper]

It looks like the Freedom Tower...


does anyone *else*want to say it?

[Don098]

does anyone *else*want to say it?

Amen, skyscraper. I wanted to say something but I bit my tongue for once! ;)

[donybrx]

the world trade center was originally conceived as a massive complex for importers and exporters. at the beginning it was largely that, with the state also leasing a great deal of space, but of course it didn't stay that way. so it wasn't just a marketing gimmick, it really was descriptive.
that said, you might be right about ACC, I was just throwing it out there as a possibility.

The State became more involved than had ever been imagined.... or desired....NYC in the mid-70s was all but bankrupt, narrowly averted under Felix Rohatyn's stewardship. It was a mess, manufacturing jobs were bleeding to the southern states, commercial real estate was in the pits, including the WTC (expensive among very high office vacancy rates (so the state moved many employess there in order to occupy, utilize, and get the ball rolling; eventually, of course, the private market/ international users/ financial outfits did change the fortunes of the twin towers........

ACC, if built, should enjoy a better run.........hopefully.

[srr]

I wouldn't worry too much about the current renderings of ACC's tower. If you'll remember, the Comcast Center went through a multitude of designs before the final product, which IMO is by far the best of them all.

I totally agree. The design only got better on the Comcast Center. Also, I love the flat roof. I think as the design goes forward, the best possible thing would be to either shorten the spire and add more floors or to just add floors and bring the spire higher!

[theWatusi]

Breaking News!!! Front Page of today's Inq---New tower for Philly!!! :rolleyes:

http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20080322_1_500-foot_tower_plan_in_Philadelphia_heralds_new_era_of_super-tall_skyscrapers.html

1,500-foot tower plan in Philadelphia heralds new era of super-tall skyscrapers
By Inga Saffron

Inquirer Architecture Critic

The most notable fact about a new proposal to build a record-breaking 1,500-foot skyscraper at 18th and Arch Streets isn't the building's stunning height. It's that its height isn't an issue for Philadelphians.
Two decades after this city underwent a wrenching public soul-searching over the prospect that the 945-foot-tall Liberty Place would overshadow the City Hall tower, the first question many are asking about the proposed American Commerce Center is: "What are the odds of its getting built?"

Slim but better than zero, city real estate handicappers say. Yet even if this statuesque tower never takes its place alongside the skyline's current pinnacle, the 975-foot Comcast Tower, it's a good bet Center City will see skyscrapers of the same immense scale piercing the clouds in the not-distant future.

One Liberty Place held the title of Philadelphia's tallest building for 20 years, until it was overtaken last year. Its successor is unlikely to wear the mantle for long, predicted John Gattuso, the Liberty Property Trust executive who built Comcast's glass obelisk.

"There's a high probability we'll see super-tall towers in the next round of building," he said. "When will we get to the height of the one that's proposed? Who knows? But it's wonderful that Philadelphians are thinking in those terms."

In general, it seems that tall buildings are getting taller. During the recent condo boom, 400-foot towers became commonplace in many cities, including Philadelphia. Now, super-tall towers, as their champions call them, are going through the stratosphere.

New York is building the 1,776-foot Freedom Tower at Ground Zero to replace the lost World Trade Center (1,368 feet). It soon will be bested by Santiago Calatrava's swirling 2,000-foot Chicago Spire. Both buildings, however, will have to look up to Burj Dubai, which will soar a half-mile above the earth at 2,300 feet after its completion in the United Arab Emirates next year.

Heavyweights of the super-tall club are mainly rising in go-go financial centers such as Dubai, Shanghai and Hong Kong, eager to present a visible statement of their ambitions. But the architect A. Eugene Kohn, who has designed two of the world's highest buildings and is overseeing the American Commerce Center plans, contends that any city that expects to remain competitive in the energy-conscious 21st century will have to embrace super-tall buildings.

"When these towers are well planned and served by transit, they're incredibly energy-efficient," said Carol Willis, director of New York's Skyscraper Museum. They make cities more livable by providing the critical mass to justify amenities, she believes.

Walnut Street Capital, the investment group behind the American Commerce Center, clearly thought the lot at 18th Street met the criteria for a super-tall building when it paid $30 million for the half-block property last year. Though the site does not connect to the Suburban Station Concourse, architects are looking at ways to extend that underground passage, which now terminates under the Comcast building. The site is accessible to SEPTA, Amtrak and the airport.

Like most super-tall towers, American Commerce would offer more than one use. The complex would include a hollowed trapezoid on the 18th Street side that would rise 477 feet and include a 33-story hotel, three levels of shops, movie theaters, and a conference center, as well as landscaped plazas served by cafes and restaurants. Another retail level is designated for a big-box store such as Crate & Barrel, and there is room in the underground level for a supermarket.

Yet despite the center's boast of soaring 1,500 feet, its office tower would top out at just 1,200 feet. A 300-foot spire would poke out from its asymmetrically sliced crown - like a toothpick in a martini glass. That crown, incidentally, is a virtual clone of the original design that Daniel Libeskind submitted for Freedom Tower in 2003.

The complex probably would be faced in glass, but the architects are a long way from completing the details. While northwest corners would be angled, the Center City side appears dully squared off.

One odd thing about the 1,200-foot tower, which would be on the 19th Street side of the site, is that it would contain just 62 office floors above the eight-story base of amenities. That would give American Commerce about 1.3 million square feet of office space, roughly the same as the Comcast building, which has 57 floors and a similar footprint. American Commerce's total would be 2.2 million square feet.

Most of today's super-tall towers, Willis noted, are residential buildings. They need fewer elevators than offices do, and they don't have to waste precious floor space on bulky service cores.

For many Philadelphians, it's hard to imagine a big project of either type getting off the ground with a recession looming. Yet this market doesn't follow a typical pattern.

Other than the Comcast building and the petite Cira Centre, there has been virtually no office construction here since the 1991 real estate crash. The city's office buildings are as technologically out of date as a five-year-old laptop and have trouble satisfying companies that want fast Internet and high energy efficiency.

So, although the real estate market has stalled, American Commerce's investors believe there is a pent-up demand here for new high-tech offices. The strategy, said attorney Peter Kelsen, is to take advantage of low office rents to lure out-of-town companies that are eager to cut costs. Philadelphia's rents are half of New York's.

If American Commerce can find a starter tenant to take 30 percent of its floor space, the project could get a green light. Because it is backed by a pension fund, Walnut Street Capital won't need to scramble for bank financing.

But it will be competing with Liberty Property Trust and Brandywine Realty, which also plan new office buildings. Unlike Walnut Capital, those companies have proved they can build a tower.

[SJPhillyBoy]

The images that accompany the article in the Philadelphia Inquirer.

http://media.philly.com/images/20080322_inq_isntall22-a.JPG
ERIC MENCHER / Inquirer Staff Photographer
Sunlight illuminates the lot where the skyscraper would rise.

http://media.philly.com/images/20080322_inq_isntall22z-b.JPG
JOHN COSTELLO / Inquirer Staff Photographer
A skyscraper on this lot at 18th and Arch would rise 525 feet above the 975-foot Comcast Center (right).

http://media.philly.com/images/20080322_inq_isntall21-d.JPG
This is the architect's vision for the American Commerce Center, in a view from Arch.

[kraggman]

^^^ YEAH !!! Here we go !!! :D

But I don't agree with this quote,"Slim but better than zero, city real estate handicappers say." To the question if it will be built or not.
This project is already financed, correct?? All they need is one major tenant to proceed ??

[Stu]

Would be awesome if this is built. It might sound crazy but I really like skyscrapers. ;)

[TheOldMan]

^^^ YEAH !!! Here we go !!! :D

But I don't agree with this quote,"Slim but better than zero, city real estate handicappers say." To the question if it will be built or not.
This project is already financed, correct?? All they need is one major tenant to proceed ??

yeah, i didnt agree with that either, although , like Comcast Center, there are signifigant hurdles to surmount prior to start of construction. The two that stick out in my mind are the obvious need of an anchor tenant and the rezoning needed. Height is not a problem but i believe there is some other issue that has to be dealt with.

At this point, i would say there is a 25% chance of it being built, about the same as Comcast Center upon initial proposal. In fact, Comcast Center wanted KOZ and didnt get it and only a last minute bit of tap-dancing by Gov. Ed Randell allowed LBT to put shovels into the ground.

Given the favorable rent situation, Phila's overall location, rising reputation, the type of financing, and the equity they have in the property, the developers should be able to lure an anchor tenant from NYC or some other high rent district.

In this case, Inga's article is not too bad. she doesnt seem to be slamming the design like she does with alot of other proposals, including Comcast Center, which turned out to be incredible.

[SJPhillyBoy]

I like this paragraph from Inga's article...

"If American Commerce can find a starter tenant to take 30 percent of its floor space, the project could get a green light. Because it is backed by a pension fund, Walnut Street Capital won't need to scramble for bank financing."


This is VERY DOABLE and VERY REALISTIC and probably WILL happen. So they do not need to fill all of the space in the building to start construction, only 30%. This will happen. Super Tall here we come.

[Don098]

"Slim but better than zero, city real estate handicappers say." That's the kind of thing people say when they're in irrational denial and likely ignorant of the details. If this project lacked funding, needed height rezoning, and was being proposed with say a 15% office vacancy rate in the city, THEN you would say something like that.

[skyscraper]

yeah, i didnt agree with that either, although , like Comcast Center, there are signifigant hurdles to surmount prior to start of construction. The two that stick out in my mind are the obvious need of an anchor tenant and the rezoning needed. Height is not a problem but i believe there is some other issue that has to be dealt with.
the issue is FAR, or floor area ratio. the allowable height of the building is unlimited, but the overall square footage can only be a certain multiple of the site area. I don't know what the allowable FAR is for that site, so I won't speculate on what it might be. but for some sites, you can only have 7.5 times the total site area, for example. if the site is 100,000sf, then the building can be 750,000sf of floor area. that is just an example, again I don't know what it is for the acc site, but it is going to need a variance to get 2.2 million sf.

At this point, i would say there is a 25% chance of it being built, about the same as Comcast Center upon initial proposal. In fact, Comcast Center wanted KOZ and didnt get it and only a last minute bit of tap-dancing by Gov. Ed Randell allowed LBT to put shovels into the ground.
25% based on what? that means that there are 4 possible scenarios, only one of which allows for it to be built. I think the chances are much better than that.

Given the favorable rent situation, Phila's overall location, rising reputation, the type of financing, and the equity they have in the property, the developers should be able to lure an anchor tenant from NYC or some other high rent district.
I hope you're right. as I said before, this would be much more likely to happen if city council would pretty please do something about the business privelige tax.

[bryson662001]

In all fairness there are better places to put a building of this size and bulk. Once they shoe horn it onto that lot it's going to sit there like a 5,000 pound elephant.

It's the sort of scenereo that zoning was invented to prevent.

[skyscraper]

In all fairness there are better places to put a building of this size and bulk.

such as...?

[TheOldMan]

POSTED BY SKYSCRAPER: 25% based on what? that means that there are 4 possible scenarios, only one of which allows for it to be built. I think the chances are much better than that.

Skyscraper,

Thank you for clarifying the zoning issue.

Yes, the Business Privelege Tax needs to be eliminated. The tax code in Philadelphia in general needs to be overhauled. That is another discussion in which we can discuss ad nausem.

My above estimate was simply based on watching umerous past large scale projects both in Philly and other cities from initial proposal to conclusion. Three scenarios that could halt the project or alter it signifigantly are as follows:

1.Progressively worsening economy/inflation and precipitous rise in const. costs thus making the project financially unattractive
2. Failure to lure/sign anchor tenant or tenants
3. Failure to obtain necessary rezoning for site as req. by the development team.

Im sure there are more hurdles but the above three stick out the most for me.

the first scenario is impossible to predict for sure but given the rising costs of fuel and other commodities, it is not out of the question. However declining commercial vacency rates in the city as well as a pent-up demand for Class A office space can mitigate this to some extent.

the 2nd possibility (failure to sign an anchor tenant), is less likely; it appears the developers are commited and have put together an excellent initial proposal that would seem to be attractive to any large company looking to make a move. Since only 30% of the usable office space needs to be rented, the odds favor success in this regard. Though, the tax code could pose a challenge for the developers. Like you stated, it needs to be changed.

I cannot speak to the third scenario. I dont have any practical knowledge of the rezoning process and to what extent one has to go in order to obtain a desired re-zoning approved for a given project in Philadelphia. Perhaps someone with a greater knowledge base can give informed speculation.

Overall , do i think the project will happen: Yes, i belive it will, at least in some form not too much different that what we see here. As I said before, Walnut Street Capital seems to have done their homework, appears committed to working with the community to make the building blend harmoniously with the city and appears fiscially capable of completing the project.

If I had appeared pessimistic, I can assure you that was not my intention. I BADLY want to see this happen. My post simply reflected my opinion as to the likelyhood of success based on my own previous observations of other signifigant projects.

As with any large development, only time will tell if the project will succeed and tower will come to grace our skyline and city with its presence.

[skyscraper]

Overall , do i think the project will happen: Yes, i belive it will, at least in some form not too much different that what we see here. As I said before, Walnut Street Capital seems to have done their homework, appears committed to working with the community to make the building blend harmoniously with the city and appears fiscially capable of completing the project.


if you only give it a 25% chance of happening, then the answer is no you don't believe it will happen. that would require something over 50%.
it's just when people throw out these arbitrary numbers that I call them into question.
I think most of us on this board want it to happen, in some form if not the proposed one.

[TheOldMan]

if you only give it a 25% chance of happening, then the answer is no you don't believe it will happen. that would require something over 50%.
it's just when people throw out these arbitrary numbers that I call them into question.
I think most of us on this board want it to happen, in some form if not the proposed one.

The number I threw out is not entirely arbitrary. Just think about all of the signifigant project proposals in Philadelphia since 1991, the end of the last commerical building boom. Approximatly 25-30 percent went on to be built. City Center Tower, World Trade Square, Bridgemans View Tower, CoreStates Center (twin towers), World Trade Center (twin towers), Comcast Center, Blue Cross Tower #2, Cira Center,Cira II, RATR, 1441 Chestnut Street, Mandeville Place, 17th and Vine, St. James Place. Of those 14 proposed projects, four went on to construction. The jury is still out on 4 (BVT, Mandeville, 1441 Chestnut, Cira II). But even if 1 of the 4 uncertains gets built, you are still looking at 5/14,which is roughly 30-35%. My justification for picking 1/4-BVT, 1441 and Mandeville are for the most part residental and/or have a sizable residental component. Add back in American Commerce Center and the percentage improves but is still less than 50%.

Each was/is a signifigant proposal in terms of cost and scale. Of all listed, only appx 25-30% were built and/or under construction. That holds true for the most part in every major city. Do i think at this point it will happen ? Well, i guess I give it a 25% chance. When you are talking about this stage of a given large-scale project, I believe that is optimistic. If the project needed say, 60% of the building to be leased, height variances and traditional bank financing, I would put the project at 5-10% chance, given the variables involved. Can that number change as events develop? Sure, and it will. The longer time passes, the clearer the picture will be come. Will it be a successful picture or will it remain another inspiring yet unrealized vision ? Either the odds will improve or they will be reduded to 0%. Only time will tell. These are my thoughts based on my own observations and knowledge of Philadelphia's past proposed skyscraper projects.

I believe all of us hope that picture we see in the newspapers and on the American Commerce Center's website leaps off the page and becomes apart of Philadelphia's skyline.

[fastdupree]

Would be awesome if this is built. It might sound crazy but I really like skyscrapers. ;)


Why would that statement sound crazy? Most people love skyscrapers more than they think plus cities would be very boring without them. I think the taller they get, the more interesting they become to humans. And when I say taller; I mean taller but with class like "Comcast Center" in Philly or "SWFC" in Shanghi. American Commerce seem to be a classy contender also from what the designs indicate so far but what really get me going when I see this proposal or look up at a skyscraper on the street is the design and the actual building height without the spire. A spire is OK though and the American Commerce spire design seem pretty nice. Also, we need to spread out some of these tall buildings and stop bunching them together. If we get this skyscraper plus stretch our skyline a bit with all the other future projects on hand for philly, People will seriously consider Philadelphia as one of the top 3 or 4 skylines in the world. For real!

[Jayfar]

"Slim but better than zero, city real estate handicappers say." That's the kind of thing people say when they're in irrational denial and likely ignorant of the details.
No, that's the kind of thing people say about a proposed project that they would be in competition against.

[PhillyRising]

In all fairness there are better places to put a building of this size and bulk. Once they shoe horn it onto that lot it's going to sit there like a 5,000 pound elephant.

It's the sort of scenereo that zoning was invented to prevent.

They need to tear down the Soviet style housing along JFK. That would free up the space and make that stretch of Center City livelier instead of the dead zone it currently is.......

[Stu]

Why would that statement sound crazy? Most people love skyscrapers more than they think plus cities would be very boring without them. I think the taller they get, the more interesting they become to humans. And when I say taller; I mean taller but with class like "Comcast Center" in Philly or "SWFC" in Shanghi. American Commerce seem to be a classy contender also from what the designs indicate so far but what really get me going when I see this proposal or look up at a skyscraper on the street is the design and the actual building height without the spire. A spire is OK though and the American Commerce spire design seem pretty nice. Also, we need to spread out some of these tall buildings and stop bunching them together. If we get this skyscraper plus stretch our skyline a bit with all the other future projects on hand for philly, People will seriously consider Philadelphia as one of the top 3 or 4 skylines in the world. For real!

Was being sarcastic. Obviously people on this site
like skyscrapers. :D

[Don098]

No, that's the kind of thing people say about a proposed project that they would be in competition against.

So they're still threatened by it then. It doesn't matter what the motivation is that closes their mind. The point is, it's closed. And that's part of what stifles growth. Closed minds.

[kpexpress]

Someone was bound and determined to see the original Freedom Tower design go up so they decided to put it in Philly

[SJPhillyBoy]

A person named Kamuix created a diagram of ACC in the diagram section of SSP.

[Swinefeld]

:tup:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e388/Swinefeld/New%20Constructon/diagram_sm.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e388/Swinefeld/New%20Constructon/diagram_sm2.jpg

[BuildItUp]

I was trying to come up with some prospective large tenents: Vanguard? A major phamaceutical (all NJ-based)? What about Verizon (very ugly HQ building in NYC) or Wachovia? Sovereign Bank (currently based in Reading of all places)? Someone else mentioned on a previous page that since NASDAQ is buying the Philly exchange it might be interested in a major presence here? US Airways?

Any other possibilities?

Vanguard closed its center city office back in 1999 and I don't believe they will ever move to Philly due to its low cost structure. US Airways or the airline industry is still on life support. Prospective tenants: Financial - Citizens Bank, SEI Investments, Wachovia, NASDAQ (via PhilEx), Health - GlaxoSmithkline, Merck, Aetna, J&J, Pfizer, and yes, Philly would definitely welcome Verizon back to town. All those tenants are pipe dreams, but given that right package, anything is possible.

[Philly-Drew]

TheOldMan: Nice post. Thanks. I really do appreciate the more insightful posts backed up with good reasons.

Originally posted by PhillyRising:

They need to tear down the Soviet style housing along JFK. That would free up the space and make that stretch of Center City livelier instead of the dead zone it currently is.......

I couldn’t agree more about the “Soviet Style” housing along JFK. It is an eyesore but at least it puts some much needed residential housing there. I don’t think I have any pictures of them.

[bucks native]

Two more issues: It's not just PHILA taxes, PA has one of, if not the highest, business taxes in the country.

Another consideration is the new TD Banknorth-Commerce Bank. TD is headquartered in Toronto but its US headquarters in in Maine. Commerce stretches from Maine to Florida. A logical new US HQ would be right in the middle of the US coast and that's here. Commerce has been in Cherry Hill. Can Cherry Hill accomodate a major international bank HQ?

[theWatusi]

Re: diagram

awesome :awesome:

[kraggman]

Vanguard closed its center city office back in 1999 and I don't believe they will ever move to Philly due to its low cost structure. US Airways or the airline industry is still on life support. Prospective tenants: Financial - Citizens Bank, SEI Investments, Wachovia, NASDAQ (via PhilEx), Health - GlaxoSmithkline, Merck, Aetna, J&J, Pfizer, and yes, Philly would definitely welcome Verizon back to town. All those tenants are pipe dreams, but given that right package, anything is possible.

Wasn't Wachovia rumoured to be building a 1300' tower 3 years ago?? Maybe this is the opportunity they've been looking for. Cheaper than building it themselves.

[highdensity32]

Two more issues: It's not just PHILA taxes, PA has one of, if not the highest, business taxes in the country.

Another consideration is the new TD Banknorth-Commerce Bank. TD is headquartered in Toronto but its US headquarters in in Maine. Commerce stretches from Maine to Florida. A logical new US HQ would be right in the middle of the US coast and that's here. Commerce has been in Cherry Hill. Can Cherry Hill accomodate a major international bank HQ?

Commerce has a huge amount of infrastructure in Cherry Hill, including the Atrium building on RT 70 and multiple office buildings nearby. Who knows what will happen post merger?

Wasn't Wachovia rumoured to be building a 1300' tower 3 years ago?? Maybe this is the opportunity they've been looking for. Cheaper than building it themselves.

Wachovia previously looked for continguous space because they are in multiple office buildings across the city. You could see this happen in the future, depending on what their current lease obligations are. And Wachovia wouldn't develop their own building. Like Comcast, their tower would be developed by a third party real estate entity.

[Live from Philly]

I was trying to come up with some prospective large tenents: Vanguard? A major phamaceutical (all NJ-based)? What about Verizon (very ugly HQ building in NYC) or Wachovia?

Just an FYI... Verizon no longer has it's corporate headquarters in NYC... they moved to Basking Ridge NJ about 2 years ago. And since then they've spent millions there, building a huge corporate complex, so there is zero shot of them moving their HQ to Philly, no matter what the building. They've actually moved offices out of the Verizon Tower (still erroneously referred to as the Bell Atlantic Tower) in Philly and sent them to NJ...

I like the idea of Vanguard or a pharmaceutical (like Merc), but these companies already have sprawling suburban corporate campuses. The only way they would move into an urban skyscraper is if they were blown away on the financial end. They won't move from a perfectly good HQ site just to get a nicer view from their offices.

And like has been mentioned, all the employees that currently live and work outside of Philly would then be working in the city, and thus paying the painful city wage tax. That's like a major pay-cut, especially for the higher level management. So there's a lot to overcome for a large suburban based company to agree to this move...

[TheOldMan]

TheOldMan: Nice post. Thanks. I really do appreciate the more insightful posts backed up with good reasons.





Thank you for the support Philly-Drew. some spirited debate every now and then is a good thing.....

Live From Philly-Good post. The city wage tax is definately a stumbling block. Any corporations looking to relocate will definately keep that in mind. The hope is that a NYC firm, that pays almost double per square foot for their space, will see the city as a bargin and also a chance to boost their image and bottom line by occupying what would be the tallest green building in the country. Only time will tell...

[Live from Philly]

The hope is that a NYC firm, that pays almost double per square foot for their space, will see the city as a bargin and also a chance to boost their image and bottom line by occupying what would be the tallest green building in the country. Only time will tell...


Exactly. To me, the only way a company moves it's HQ into Philly is if it is relocating from NYC (or possibly another city): that would (or could) make fiscal sense. The suburbs-to-Philly does not. There's a reason those companies already chose those locations over others in Philadelphia, even though there was plenty of vacant office space in center city...

[frank_pentangeli]

I was trying to come up with some prospective large tenents: Vanguard? A major phamaceutical (all NJ-based)? What about Verizon (very ugly HQ building in NYC) or Wachovia? Sovereign Bank (currently based in Reading of all places)? Someone else mentioned on a previous page that since NASDAQ is buying the Philly exchange it might be interested in a major presence here? US Airways?

Any other possibilities?

The idea that you see no problem with potentially decimating a smaller city (Reading) by suggesting its largest tenant move 60 miles southeast is pretty despicable. They're tied to the city for many years to come, btw.

[SJPhillyBoy]

Not to be picky, but Bridgeman's View Tower is missing from Swinefeld's diagram. It would look nice in there. Proposed at 915 feet and approved up to 950 feet, that is nothing to sneeze at.

[McBane]

the developers should (and i believe they are) target nyc. is it really that difficult to imagine?

as inga's article stated the other day rents in acc would be mid 30's. in nyc rents are $100/sq ft. plus nyc, not philly has the highest tax burden in the nation.

with the economy softening, perhaps some of these nyc companies would like to cut costs. not only would they save money but they have the opportunity to be HQed in what will be one of nation's tallest buildings. so what if it's not nyc? the building will be an icon. and if the company is big enough, they will might have the opportunity to get naming rights. imagine that huh? move to philly, save money, and be HQed in an iconic building to be named after your company?

how many articles have we read about nyc resident moving to philly but keeping their jobs and commuting everyday to nyc? now imagine how many more would be willing to move here if their employer did as well? the options for the employees is stay in nyc and look for a new job or move to philly (surely a reputable company would help defray relocation costs - plus other incentives to keep employees), keep their job, and significantly lower their cost of living (while probably upgrading their living quarters).

should these companies worry about future hires b/c philly has such low 4-yr degree rates compared to other cities? well, we do have a few pretty good schools nearby, don't we? the question is having jobs available to make the students stay. i think it's safe to say wharton grads are qualified.

all that's missing here is a concerted campaign coordinated with WSC and certain city agencies to help lure companies to philly. everything else justs seems so logical.

[apetrella802]

remember when Pa Plaza was asking for KOZ status and other building owners ranted that if built Pa Plaza would result in a 20/25 % vacancy rate. But when Comcast moved out of Center Sq that space was leased very successfully. ALso Cigna(ACE) space in two liberty was also leased although some was converted to condos. In any event another way in which ACC could get off the ground would be for a major move within the city and have the vacated space leased by firms on the way up, that is, leaving class B space and go into class A. Often the class B space they vacate needs to be renevated to remain competitive and ends up with other uses such as apts/condo. So even a relatively slow rate of growth in demand for space couild result in getting ACC started.

[Live from Philly]

The idea that you see no problem with potentially decimating a smaller city (Reading) by suggesting its largest tenant move 60 miles southeast is pretty despicable.


:rolleyes: I don't know how you can say something like that. What do you think we're talking about here? We're skyscraper enthusiasts trying to think of potential tenants for a new supertall. And you call someone despicable for saying that such and such company might want to move to a big city? What do you think this is, "A Wonderful Life?"

If you want to say that you hope it doesn't happen b/c you're worried about Reading, then that's fine. That's understandable. But to call someone despicable for suggesting it... geez.

I guess you would have us say "any company based in a small town is off limits to relocate to a new skyscraper because, gosh darnit, it wouldn't be right to do that to the town."

give me a break...

[apetrella802]

reading

we all know that NY uses its advantages in a predetary manner, law of the jungle. You know that when Comcast was negotiating to buy AT&T Braodband, AT&T managment fought very hard to have the HQ in NY trying in vein to stop the sale unless that condition was meet. It wansn't of course but not because they didn't try.

I know how I felt when the Walmart Hillbillies sought to get The Gross Clinic. Only because that particular painting was Eakins greatest work and deeply inbedded in Philadelphia's 19th c. patrimony. We should be proad that many of his paintings are in other museums but not that one!

So I'm sure we can leave Reading alone and not hope to jeprodize its economic health but it is a dog eat dog world out there.

[TechTalkGuy]

:rolleyes: I don't know how you can say something like that. What do you think we're talking about here? We're skyscraper enthusiasts trying to think of potential tenants for a new supertall.

:iagree: There is no need to defend your town when you have no say in the decision the company's CEO's will make.

Now, keep in mind this is not about real-estate or even companies.

The issue is about leasing affordable office space to companies for opportunities of a lifetime.

It is not every day you have a signature tower, proposed taller than the Empire State Building to call your own.

To have the opportunity to select your options before the tower is fully leased, perhaps to have the tower named after your company is a major signature to your company's profile.

If Image and Prestige matter, then this opportunity is a very serious one.

This is where the hidden cost of city wage tax becomes a non-issue (the small price to pay for your company's image). :tup:

[theWatusi]

Wal*mart tower?

[The A Train]

Vanguard is firmly entrenched in Chesco, and is developing a second campus in the Lionville area. Let's just say I may have... "a friend"... on the inside.

[kraggman]

Wal*mart tower?

What an embarrassment that would be..............:haha:

[TechTalkGuy]

Wal*mart tower?

Well, since the iPod is very popular these days, perhaps an Apple might want to lease office space in the American Commerce Center, but it's highly doubtful they would wish to move their headquarters from the west coast.

Perhaps Google may wish to invest in a signature tower?

Hmmmm, the Google Tower.

[Ninjawho]

I'd be all for a hi-tech industry setting up shop in our area...that's something we don't have a lot of. That's the only problem to having a Google or Apple move here, tho,...we don't have a hi tech sector.

[aluminum]

I'm pretty sure this design is going to evolve into an even better one. We just need to wait.

[theWatusi]

we don't have a hi tech sector.

aside from relocating from uber nerds from cali, how hard would it be to set up a high tech company?

[Ninjawho]

well thats the benefit of silicon valley and San Fran. all of America's hitech industry is based there...so the human capital is already in that area to begin with, just like nyc has the financial market cornered and Houston the energy industry. How hard can it be? I don't know. If Verizon could be lured back we'd be probably be the communication center? Maybe not...but if ACC can lure a MAJOR tenant it might be enough to bring other similar businesses to the area...

of course that could just be wishful thinking on our part. The market usually doesn't dictate that way.

[We Got Five]

I think many of us are overstating the signature tower/centralization effect that will court an array of companies to Philly. There are deals going on right now...they will fill this tower and BRT will fill Cira South. If you increase rail service and provide the right amenities, corporations will follow. We have an opportunity (situated between D.C. and NYC) to be a financial stronghold. It's important that we look in the mirror and see that. We also need to court the smaller players - see Shunra as an example.

The hotel and retail component will only help this tower get off the ground. Once these components line up, we'll hear about tenants.

[Don098]

I think many of us are overstating the signature tower/centralization effect that will court an array of companies to Philly. There are deals going on right now...they will fill this tower and BRT will fill Cira South. If you increase rail service and provide the right amenities, corporations will follow. We have an opportunity (situated between D.C. and NYC) to be a financial stronghold. It's important that we look in the mirror and see that. We also need to court the smaller players - see Shunra as an example.

The hotel and retail component will only help this tower get off the ground. Once these components line up, we'll hear about tenants.

Amen. There's too much discussion about tax laws whose turnover rates can greatly exceed the time it takes even to build a skyscraper. We need to keep things in perspective here and not spend too much energy trying to puzzle scenarios into an economic and tax structure that is likely to change on macro scales. We're in an election year, we have a brand-spanking new mayor, and things are about to shift seismically. Cities will always inherently have more clout than the suburbs for conducting commerce just based on geography for one, so changing things as relatively small as tax laws to encourage these types of tenants is not as black-and-white-impossible as many of you are suggesting.

[Nowhereman1280]

aside from relocating from uber nerds from cali, how hard would it be to set up a high tech company?

Well you would have to overcome massive agglomeration economies which would probably require massive incentives by the city. Even then, it would still be questionable since not many tech nerds would love to move away from the sweet nerdy action that exists in SV.

[Chriss]

changing things as relatively small as tax laws to encourage these types of tenants is not as black-and-white-impossible as many of you are suggesting.

You do realize that we're talking about the eternal Philadelphia City Wage tax, right??? I look forward to the day it goes away (it has been reduced lately), but I'm not holding my breath for it.

[Don098]

You do realize that we're talking about the eternal Philadelphia City Wage tax, right??? I look forward to the day it goes away (it has been reduced lately), but I'm not holding my breath for it.

The real impasse to change are jaded attitudes like these, not the laws themselves. There's a word for that in psychology, it's called a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[skyscraper]

You do realize that we're talking about the eternal Philadelphia City Wage tax, right??? I look forward to the day it goes away (it has been reduced lately), but I'm not holding my breath for it.

the city wage tax, while it sucks, is not the real issue, it's the business privelige tax. when companies are looking for places to do business, they look at their direct bottom line. the bpt affects their cost of doing business directly and is therefore more of a factor in determining where they will set up shop. the city wage tax is more of an indirect influence because it affects employees, not the employers directly. some people won't work in the city because of it, but most will not let it affect their decision of where to work.

[giamomj]

Please advise - I've missed it somehow...thanks.

Gia

:notacrook:

[UCityPhila]

:previous: Not 100 percent sure, but I believe BRT = Brandywine Realty Trust.

[Swinefeld]

:previous: Not 100 percent sure, but I believe BRT = Brandywine Realty Trust.

Correct-a-mundo. :tup:

[We Got Five]

Yes - BRT is Brandywine Reality Trust.

Skyscraper,

You are right on the money, well said. Most employees understand that the wage tax is part of "city" work life. The BPT is a major factor in determining "who" does business in the city.

[tua21506]

I don't know if anyone already posted a link to Ingas blog but she discuses ACC in more depth than her column... sort of a preliminary review i guess...http://changingskyline.blogspot.com/

[skyscraper]

I don't know if anyone already posted a link to Ingas blog but she discuses ACC in more depth than her column... sort of a preliminary review i guess...http://changingskyline.blogspot.com/

looks like my prophecy is beginning to come true. she is already starting to come out with negative stuff about the building, and she hints at her column this week to be about not skyscraping Philadelphia. she thinks we can't handle it, and I will bet you that somewhere in that column will be some comparison to new york: that we are not new york and that only her beloved new york can handle more than one tower in a small area.

[murdoc9]

not like I post much, but it seems when there isn't much news is when the thread gets off topic, anyone know when we are supposed to have this thing go through the approval process? (if this has already been answered I do apologize, I didn't see it in the last couple of pages.) Personally, I love the preliminary design, I love the open space in the hotel; it looks enormously large and open, which would be great to see, but I wonder about using that space more profitably.

[Quixote]

Wow, I can't believe I missed this one! Philly is definitely on the upswing! :cheers:

[bucks native]

not like I post much, but it seems when there isn't much news is when the thread gets off topic, anyone know when we are supposed to have this thing go through the approval process? (if this has already been answered I do apologize, I didn't see it in the last couple of pages.) Personally, I love the preliminary design, I love the open space in the hotel; it looks enormously large and open, which would be great to see, but I wonder about using that space more profitably.

There's profit in beauty. Bold design. Eye-popping wowzaa! And the ACC hotel design speaks to each of these. Would you rather stay at the mid-town Holiday Inn or ACC's hotel?

And the discussion above about no tech jobs in Phila - come on - Comcast uses high technology, so does Unisys, and Penn and Drexel, and SAP is close enough. I've had many friends turn down jobs in Silicon Valley because it's just too damn expensive to live decently there.