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mr.x
Feb 18, 2008, 2:50 AM
Anti-Olympic protesters stage rally in downtown Vancouver
Sunday, February 17 - 05:20:43 PM Katharine Kitts

VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) - The Anti-Poverty Committee staged a short, but intense rally at the Vancouver Art Gallery today.

The Olympic clock has once again become the target of the APC.

As families played near the fountain in front of the Art Gallery, a couple dozen protestors quickly arrived and went straight for the clock.

Bright yellow paint was smeared down the front of the clock and a poster was plastered over the number of days left until the Games.

One protester says the Olympics are destroying environment and wreaking havoc on the neighbourhood.

He says they can't stop the Games but they can disrupt them, and possibly deter other cities from taking them on.

Many say their loud and in-your-face approach is the best way of getting their message across.

Police kept an eye on the area, but the protestors didn't stick around long after.

towerguy3
Feb 18, 2008, 2:57 AM
I really think these protests are getting out of control. It's time for the police to step in and put an end to this nonsense. These protestors are ruining the city's image and frankly are affecting my enjoyment of this whole 2010 buildup. I find today's incident most upsetting.

I'll be down at the clock tommorow and will post some photos of the damage to the Clock along with some cool Shangri-La angles (bright sunshine tommorow)

canucks23
Feb 18, 2008, 3:00 AM
The should all be 1. Arrested 2. Fined 3. Charged.

And when the Olympics come around ( I know this is a long shot but...) Anyone with a record due to anti-Olympics, should be thrown in jail for the 2 weeks!:)
Problem solved:tup:

Lead
Feb 18, 2008, 3:02 AM
I thought there was a security guard on site at all times?

deasine
Feb 18, 2008, 3:03 AM
I thought there was a security guard on site at all times?

That's what I thought... but the last time I went to the clock, there was no one there.

mr.x
Feb 18, 2008, 3:05 AM
Where was that security guard? And shouldn't it be about time that he's armed with an automatic?

Yume-sama
Feb 18, 2008, 3:09 AM
They are so lucky they live in Canada. They'd have been in the secret work camps outside of Beijing if this was China :P

Time for Canada, and Vancouver, to man up and do something about these people. They will embarrass this city, the province, and the Country.

It goes beyond a "free speech" issue.

mr.x
Feb 18, 2008, 3:18 AM
^ i couldn't agree more.

Is it also true that they broke the glass?

squeezied
Feb 18, 2008, 3:21 AM
in light of all this, better is it for them to do it now and subsequently raising awareness to security issues than for them to do it right before the olympics

towerguy3
Feb 18, 2008, 3:22 AM
I walk by every day and there hasn't been a security guard there in I don't know how long, months (?)

the City of Vancouver can't afford to pay someone $ 12 / hour to watch the Clock.

Sam where are you? Hiding again? The man shows no leadership.

Where's Sam Sullivan in all of this? Hiding again?

I'm sick and tired of his wheelchair; get a real man in there to serve as Mayor.

Sullivan, you're supposedly the Chief of Police? Do something.

towerguy3
Feb 18, 2008, 3:26 AM
Is there anyone downtown that can have a look if the glass is broken? I phoned CKNW which is right across the street and they said apparently yes.

Just wait till the U.S. TV media like NBC and CNN pick this up in the morning. Even King 5 TV in Seattle may pick this up.

Sunrise in 11 hours.

What a black eye for our city

Jarrod
Feb 18, 2008, 3:30 AM
Don't they realize that they're the ones that paid for these things? Like, it's being paid out of taxes, so in truth, they are making it harder for other people to live as then the taxes will have to be risen for idiotic things like vandilization.

God, people need to grow up.

mr.x
Feb 18, 2008, 3:35 AM
I walk by every day and there hasn't been a security guard there in I don't know how long, months (?)

the City of Vancouver can't afford to pay someone $ 12 / hour to watch the Clock.

Sam where are you? Hiding again? The man shows no leadership.

Where's Sam Sullivan in all of this? Hiding again?

I'm sick and tired of his wheelchair; get a real man in there to serve as Mayor.

Sullivan, you're supposedly the Chief of Police? Do something.

It has been 370 days since the clock was unveiled. Multiply that by 24 hours and it's 8,880 hours. Multiply that again by the $12.00 wage, and you've got a $107,000 bill.

It's probably marginally cheaper to fix the clock. Not to mention, how effective is one unarmed security guard against a mob of lunatics? But of course, damage to the image of the Games and of how the public feels about them cannot be fixed with money.


I have lost faith in our mayor as well. I hate saying this, but he mentions his disability in almost every interview. He also lacks strength and a certain stamina required for a good leader. And his wheelchair/disability can be blamed.

According to the CTV story, police surrounded the clock to prevent any damage...the footage of the damage wasn't much. They showed a yellow paintball, but there was no shattered glass. The mob leader was also that nerd-looking guy with glasses that "evicted" the Premier's office last year.

Yume-sama
Feb 18, 2008, 3:41 AM
Don't they realize that they're the ones that paid for these things? Like, it's being paid out of taxes, so in truth, they are making it harder for other people to live as then the taxes will have to be risen for idiotic things like vandilization.

God, people need to grow up.

Right, because they pay taxes and don't just live off of welfare that we give them? :haha:

They're not paying for this clock. The working stiffs who pay for them to live, will pay for this clock.

mr.x
Feb 18, 2008, 3:44 AM
^ actually, taxpayers didn't even pay for this clock. It was a gift from Omega, which is one of the IOC's The Olympic Program top sponsors. Every Olympic city gets an Olympic clock as a gift from Omega.

Ours is the only one that gets vandalized, and the only one where taxpayers need to foot money into it because of damages and security.

I'm sure they'll arrest whoever did it, don't forget there's a CCTV camera there (or at least it was there, installed after the previous incident last year).

towerguy3
Feb 18, 2008, 3:46 AM
What exactly is the situation with the Election coming up? What are the chances Sullivan could be ousted? I hear Ladner is becoming prominent.

Look at the Garbage Strike issue and the Civic Workers strike. Three months that made our City suffer. Look at all the construction schedules that went haywire cause Permits couldn't be acquired cause of no City staff available.

And look at all the City services that were affected and people and seniors inconvenienced.

Not to mention the Whitecaps Stadium. The strike put that process back months.

Re BC Place; about a year ago Sullivan stated that BC Place is owned by the Province and the City can't do anything to stop a decision to demolish it. Then recently he tells the media how important the Stadium is and that they should keep it. He talks then he hides.

I'm sick and tired of the wheelchair. The wheelchair wheelies and spinoramas were fine in Torino but we need some leadership going into 2010.

mr.x
Feb 18, 2008, 3:47 AM
Is there anyone downtown that can have a look if the glass is broken? I phoned CKNW which is right across the street and they said apparently yes.

Just wait till the U.S. TV media like NBC and CNN pick this up in the morning. Even King 5 TV in Seattle may pick this up.

Sunrise in 11 hours.

What a black eye for our city

There's a small possibility it could be part of the national news, but you won't see it as international news. It's hardly a story with two years to go. If this happened right before/during the Games, it would make it to international.

Expect the local newspapers and media to be covering this in the morning. I hope little attention is given, afterall this is what these people want.

mr.x
Feb 18, 2008, 3:52 AM
Many say their loud and in-your-face approach is the best way of getting their message across.

They'd have to be morons to think that...oh wait....

Shouldn't they realize that the more of this crap they pull off, the more they hurt their cause? They also hurt the image of everyone that is living in the DTES. They're just pissing off the public and politicians more and more....nobody cooperates with terrorists.

canucks23
Feb 18, 2008, 3:52 AM
[QUOTE=mr.x2;3361458

I'm sure they'll arrest whoever did it[/QUOTE]

Yay! These people need to feel threatened if they are going to go out and vandalize.

deasine
Feb 18, 2008, 3:56 AM
We need to honestly organize our own rally against the APC and have local media coverage around us.

This is getting REALLY out of hand and really sickening. Where is the APC office? I don't mind storming into theres pouring yellow paint on to people. Oh wait do they even have one?

Yume-sama
Feb 18, 2008, 4:20 AM
ANTI-APC won't get any attention. It's not... newsworthy to be anti-insane.

It is newsworthy when they come out of hiding :P

mr.x
Feb 18, 2008, 4:32 AM
We need to honestly organize our own rally against the APC and have local media coverage around us.

This is getting REALLY out of hand and really sickening. Where is the APC office? I don't mind storming into theres pouring yellow paint on to people. Oh wait do they even have one?

wouldn't it be wonderful if last week's explosion was the APC office?

SpongeG
Feb 18, 2008, 5:46 AM
Anti-Olympic protesters demand 'homes for everybody'

By Ian Austin
The Province


Sunday, February 17, 2008



Protesters vowed further civic disruption yesterday as they defaced the Olympic Countdown Clock in downtown Vancouver.

"This isn't the end of resistance," said Thomas Malenfant, as he glued two posters to the clock located in front of the Vancouver Art Gallery. "This is only the beginning."

A female protester lobbed two yellow paintballs at the clock, obscuring some of the numbers which continuously count down the time remaining until the 2010 Winter Olympics.

The afternoon anti-Olympic rally on the eve of today's provincial budget began peacefully at Victory Square, where speakers accused the B.C. Liberals of squandering a budget surplus on tax cuts for the rich and the giant Olympic budget.

"Last year the surplus was $2 billion," said Jill Chettiar of the Anti-Poverty Committee, which organized the protest. "This year we're looking at [a possible] $3 billion.

"People on the Downtown Eastside are paying for the surplus with their lives, and what are they getting - tax cuts for the rich.

"They're spending money on tax cuts for people who already have homes, who already have cars."

About 40 protesters marched through city streets, chanting "No Homes, No Peace," and "Homes, Not Olympics," before joining another 30 people gathered near the clock.

They were tailed by four bicycle cops and a patrol car, but no police greeted the group as it neared the clock.

The group struck quickly, lobbing the paintballs and slapping up the posters, as about a dozen officers moved in closely, but made no move to intervene.

"We want 2,000 units of social housing built every year," said Malenfant after he'd pasted the posters to the clock. "We want free tuition. We will not tolerate this any longer."

Malenfant, 23, lives in the Downtown Eastside, and works for the Downtown Eastside Residents Association. - hes part of the poverty industry!!

He dismissed the government's recent purchases of hotels to convert to social housing.

"That's not new housing," he said. "That's just a change of slumlord.

"We want 2,000 units of new housing - that's $200 million a year, plus $10 million a year to maintain.

"That's not much compared to a $2 billion surplus. We want homes for everybody in B.C. - that's all."

When asked if police would move in to arrest protesters, an officer replied: "When the time comes, the time comes - until then it's just a protest."

No arrests were made at the scene, but police remained at the scene long after the protesters left, interviewing witnesses to try to determine who threw the paintballs.

Vancouver Mayor Sam Sullivan dismissed the protest as a small, vocal minority.

"When you have thousands of citizens offering to volunteer for the games, and corporations around the world spending money on the games, when you see a small group constantly working against all of our efforts, it's very frustrating," said Sullivan.

"There are people who take advantage of our society, and our desire to offer people freedom of speech."

The province and the city have made a number of recent housing announcements - the latest the purchase of six Vancouver hotels last week.

Sullivan said 115 rooms in those hotels were vacant, and new residents will be carefully screened.

"There will be two people working there full-time, and there will be renovations," said Sullivan.

Sullivan added that "3,050 units of social housing are in the planning, development or construction phase."

iaustin@png.canwest.com

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=904184be-ff21-499c-8e2d-e300f5ab3281&k=1311

mr.x
Feb 18, 2008, 6:00 AM
These people are lunatics.

Yume-sama
Feb 18, 2008, 6:14 AM
If they'd all get real jobs maybe there would be $200 million extra to spend on "social housing" rather than their welfare checks.

mr.x
Feb 18, 2008, 6:15 AM
Or even better: maybe if they all got real jobs, they would have nice homes, money for food, and money for tuition.

Yume-sama
Feb 18, 2008, 6:16 AM
I wonder if they get all their talking material by watching American TV. What tax cuts for the "rich" (people who work and have a house, car) have we seen?

http://apc.resist.ca/graphics/iskra%20poster.jpg
Ahh, Cheap Beer. Well, that explains a lot about them. Don't spend your *own* money on the poor, go get hammered!

SpongeG
Feb 18, 2008, 6:34 AM
who funds DERA?

does the city or any level of government give them money?

if so maybe they should screen who they hire and question their organization

maybe someone in here can write a letter to the city to inquire and demand something be done about money that supports anti-social groups...

mr.x
Feb 18, 2008, 6:36 AM
^ DERA, which David Cunningham famously works for two-days a week, is taxpayer funded.

Not to mention that Cunningham, after his threats to evict 2010 officials from their homes, has a restraining order from all Olympic related events, government and VANOC officials.

mr.x
Feb 18, 2008, 6:41 AM
I just realized something about Thomas Malenfant.

In French, Mal enfant means "bad baby".

vid
Feb 18, 2008, 6:44 AM
Do they realize that this kind of shit is hurting their cause?

deasine
Feb 18, 2008, 6:46 AM
I just realized something about Thomas Malenfant.

In French, Mal enfant means "bad baby".

LOL wow analyzing names now =P

"we want 2000 homes now! we want free tuition! we won't tolerate anylonger"

Wow honestly, it's like as if we have to help them. Honestly, we should have a government that's just going to say NO and tell the to get their big fat ass off the sofa and type a resume and cover letter and send it to McDonalds. Get a damn job! I really want to organize some ANTI ANTI POVERTY COMMITEE (like a real one) NOW where we all join and like make public speeches and win support from the public *dreaming*

twoNeurons
Feb 18, 2008, 6:47 AM
It's just a stupid clock. Some people take the Olympics too seriously.

If people want to protest it, let them. Black Eye? Since when is identifying a problem that needs to be addressed a black eye? You'd be hard-pressed to actually find must altruistic goodness in the Olympics.

Let's face it, people, the Olympics are all about money. Plain and simple. And they make a lot of it.

Suggesting that a security guard patrol with an automatic to guard a stupid lock is one step short of a police state.

Yume-sama
Feb 18, 2008, 6:51 AM
It's pretty clear it's not even about the Olympics for these people. It's just the highest profile event they can protest to get their message out. They'd protest the National HotDog Eating Championship (FEED THE HOMELESS, NOT WASTE VALUABLE PORK-LIKE PRODUCTS ON YOURSELF) as a Schneiders Corporate conspiracy if that was the biggest event this city was going to get. These kinds of people just want to raise trouble, get some attention, and in the end not really accomplish anything but being "different" and "against something" though they never really know what. The Olympics will come and go, but these people will stay and complain about something else.

deasine
Feb 18, 2008, 6:58 AM
If we dont' have the games - they wouldn't be getting their "NEEDS" met either way. One of their posters:

http://apc.resist.ca/graphics/matta%20tent%20city%20web.jpg
Development of the East Side has NOTHING To do with the olympics

Sometimes I just want to see a bomb drop on there -_-"

mr.x
Feb 18, 2008, 7:02 AM
^ all we need is a meteorite the size of a basketball....it would completely obliterate the DTES.

AKA-007
Feb 18, 2008, 7:25 AM
They are asking for 2000 new homes. In the DTES, that can take up either a large area or a large highrise. Either way, new buildings are the most expensive option. I like the converted hotel option. It utilises existing space that has already been previosly been used. But ultimately, the only solution is for these people to get off their asses and get a job and make a living and be able to live in their own place and buy their own groceries and if they can't afford a car, get a one zone pass and commute publicly.

Also, count me in on the AAPC.

mr.x
Feb 18, 2008, 7:33 AM
"They make you pay for a spot to live on the planet you were born onto!!"



Maybe they would be happier if the Soviet Union had won the Cold War?:shrug:


New Canada, satellite state of the Great Soviet Union
http://www.usflags.com/images/products/ussr.gif

deasine
Feb 18, 2008, 7:51 AM
Well there wouldn't be the issue of rich and poor now, since in communism (if there were proper leaders), we would all be the same. Not many countries have achieved that though. The only one that comes to mind is Cuba.

I love Socials 11. =)

Nutterbug
Feb 18, 2008, 2:36 PM
"They make you pay for a spot to live on the planet you were born onto!!"



Maybe they would be happier if the Soviet Union had won the Cold War?

...until they find out how much less tolerance the Soviets would have for their dissent.

Nutterbug
Feb 18, 2008, 2:39 PM
It's just a stupid clock. Some people take the Olympics too seriously.

If people want to protest it, let them. Black Eye? Since when is identifying a problem that needs to be addressed a black eye? You'd be hard-pressed to actually find must altruistic goodness in the Olympics.

LEGAL PEACEFUL NONDISRUPTIVE NONDESTRUCTIVE protest?

204
Feb 18, 2008, 2:54 PM
When the Olympics are over, these folks are gonna be bored.

towerguy3
Feb 18, 2008, 4:27 PM
No security patrol at the Clock this morning and yellow paint is all cleaned up.

re Security camera: the only one in the area is on the wall near the right side of the main steps of the Art Gallery (Georgia side) and currently the camera is pointed downwards (?)

ReginaGuy
Feb 18, 2008, 5:07 PM
Well there wouldn't be the issue of rich and poor now, since in communism (if there were proper leaders), we would all be the same. Not many countries have achieved that though. The only one that comes to mind is Cuba.

I love Socials 11. =)

Communism looks good on paper. But there has never been a good communist leader. Everyone in the government would be rich and everyone else would be poor. That's how communism tends to work.

jlousa
Feb 18, 2008, 5:43 PM
If they want to act like kids, then treat them like kids, take away their allowance (funding) when they act bad, if they do something that is above and beyond (acutally help the area) reward them (more funding). That way they still feel in control and will learn about benefits and consequences.

twoNeurons
Feb 18, 2008, 5:54 PM
^ Replace government with corporation and you have capitalism, to some extent.

Seriously, folks... We haven't found a form of government that works.

It's easy to say, "These people should get out and work for a living!!!"

In practice, however, they don't fit well into the current system. There's essentially no room for them. Not all of them... but what happens when unbridled capitalism gets its way? You get a country where there is huge potential, and little safety net. It becomes every man for himself with little room for error.

If you actually talk to people who lived before and after the soviet block fell, you'll hear a different story than you might have expected.

Even the system in Japan, which worked very well in distributing wealth in part because of the Japanese Society being very collective has been changing recently.

As an example... in Japan, there isn't a huge divide between CEOs and Assembly line workers.

As I understand it generally, your pay rate goes up as you get older, have kids, get married, get promoted, etc.

If a worker makes 20,000/year, hi manager would make 25,000, his manager make 30,000 up to the CEO, who might make 80,000.

This is a far cry from the way corporations work here, where the company's wealth is not spread out evenly at all.

Didn't Henry Ford originally say that his workers should be able to afford the cars that they're building?

Not to go on too much of a tirade, but saying things like "Let's bomb the east-side" are disgusting thoughts. Those kind of thoughts are what fuel genocide and wars... feeling that "we" are somehow better than they are because we fit the social norms better.

If the other side had the capability and made a statement to "bomb point grey" it would probably be investigated by some anti-terror campaign.

quobobo
Feb 18, 2008, 6:50 PM
^ Replace government with corporation and you have capitalism, to some extent.

Seriously, folks... We haven't found a form of government that works.

It's easy to say, "These people should get out and work for a living!!!"

In practice, however, they don't fit well into the current system. There's essentially no room for them. Not all of them... but what happens when unbridled capitalism gets its way? You get a country where there is huge potential, and little safety net. It becomes every man for himself with little room for error.

If you actually talk to people who lived before and after the soviet block fell, you'll hear a different story than you might have expected.

Even the system in Japan, which worked very well in distributing wealth in part because of the Japanese Society being very collective has been changing recently.

As an example... in Japan, there isn't a huge divide between CEOs and Assembly line workers.

As I understand it generally, your pay rate goes up as you get older, have kids, get married, get promoted, etc.

If a worker makes 20,000/year, hi manager would make 25,000, his manager make 30,000 up to the CEO, who might make 80,000.

This is a far cry from the way corporations work here, where the company's wealth is not spread out evenly at all.

Didn't Henry Ford originally say that his workers should be able to afford the cars that they're building?

Not to go on too much of a tirade, but saying things like "Let's bomb the east-side" are disgusting thoughts. Those kind of thoughts are what fuel genocide and wars... feeling that "we" are somehow better than they are because we fit the social norms better.

If the other side had the capability and made a statement to "bomb point grey" it would probably be investigated by some anti-terror campaign.

Japan also underwent phenomenal growth after WW2 that allowed them to do this. Now that things have slowed down, they're becoming much more like us, and kakusa-shakai (essentially social inequality) has been a buzzword for the last few years.

Also, the Japanese system of loyalty to one company only doesn't really work here.

Finally, take a look at Japan's insane amount of public debt. If it was their government programs that enabled a high level of equality (which I doubt), they're certainly not financially sustainable in the long run.

Yume-sama
Feb 18, 2008, 7:36 PM
There's a lot of rich Japanese people :P. When an apartment that would cost $1 million in Vancouver costs $10 million in Tokyo... that's a good sign.

mr.x
Feb 18, 2008, 8:58 PM
There's our Malenfant right there, our city's own bad baby:
http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/12465/1d/media.canada.com/idl/vapr/20080218/139500-44009.jpg

Yume-sama
Feb 18, 2008, 9:36 PM
There's our Malenfant right there, our city's own bad baby:
http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/12465/1d/media.canada.com/idl/vapr/20080218/139500-44009.jpg

Wow, I've never seen a picture before. Looks almost exactly as I would have expected. :haha:

Stingray2004
Feb 18, 2008, 9:38 PM
^ DERA, which David Cunningham famously works for two-days a week, is taxpayer funded.

In the years prior to Expo '86, Jim Green (yes Vision's mayoral candidate last time around), headed up DERA and led the media protests against the turfing out of eastside residents from those old SRO's, which were slated for rehabilitation. The Patricia Hotel comes to mind.

And we had some militants throwing eggs at Expo Chairman Jimmy Pattison at Carnegie Centre, etc, etc.

Fast forward and the same antics are being played out now. As with Expo, their numbers dwindle as time goes on and they received no more media attention once the world's fair began.

At least Jim Green, prior to Expo 86, had some reason to complain and communicated with Pattison. These APC guys are nothing more than militants and anarchists that piss people off.

Dorian G.
Feb 18, 2008, 9:54 PM
It's easy to say, "These people should get out and work for a living!!!" In practice, however, they don't fit well into the current system.
[ . . . ]
Not to go on too much of a tirade, but saying things like "Let's bomb the east-side" are disgusting thoughts. Those kind of thoughts are what fuel genocide and wars... feeling that "we" are somehow better than they are because we fit the social norms better. If the other side had the capability and made a statement to "bomb point grey" it would probably be investigated by some anti-terror campaign.Awesome post. It'd take some fearsome naiveté to believe that anyone really wants to live on the street. And it's equally ignorant to claim that the APC's violent protests are destroying their cause; think of the other marginalized groups forced to extremes, (The WSPU, especially). The thing that's really causing problems (besides the ridiculous anti-capitalist, pork-barrel spending on the olympics®) is the overwhelming slant of the media:
Katharine Kitts / VANCOUVER (NEWS1130): Anti-Olympic protesters stage rally in downtown Vancouver
As families played [sentimental and unverifiable] near the fountain in front of the Art Gallery, a couple [reductive] dozen protestors quickly arrived and went straight for the clock. Bright yellow paint was smeared [negative connotations] down the front of the clock and a poster was plastered [ditto] over the number of days left until the Games [games capitalized? She thinks she's Blake]. One protester says [she means said, since this one person doesn't speak for everyone] the Olympics are destroying environment and wreaking havoc on the neighbourhood. He says they can't stop the Games but they can disrupt them, and possibly deter other cities from taking them on. Many say their loud and in-your-face approach is the best way of getting their message across. Police kept an eye on the area, but the protestors didn't stick around long after.
How can anyone even read that without being intensely aware of its glaring ideological bias? The protesters are clearly portrayed in opposition to "family" (a word approaching meaninglessness anyway), and are described arriving and leaving quickly (despite that the police presence didn't react strongly); the rally is mentioned only in the title. Just astonishingly propagandic.I'm sick and tired of his wheelchair; get a real man in there to serve as Mayor.Having two legs doesn't make anyone "more of a man" than anyone else. And does the mayor have to be a man? sighhh . . .

Stingray2004
Feb 18, 2008, 10:12 PM
Hey Dorian... what's up with the nogames2010 moniker? :D

mr.x
Feb 18, 2008, 10:16 PM
she's a witch!!! burn her!!!

quobobo
Feb 18, 2008, 10:51 PM
...the ridiculous anti-capitalist, pork-barrel spending on the olympics®...

Hey, something we can agree on.

However, the APC certainly isn't opposed to the olympics because they think it's wasteful spending - they're opposed to it because it's not their wasteful spending.

Here's a couple quotes from their website: "the capitalist/colonial legal system has failed the people", "The poor face constant attack under the capitalist system", "in the long run the Liberals have succeeded in trumping the NDP in ruthlessness".

This is an organization that thinks the NDP doesn't spend enough money on social projects. Enough said.

You're right that a lot of people in this thread go too far, but that doesn't stop the APC from being giant douches.

Yume-sama
Feb 18, 2008, 11:08 PM
I don't see how the Olympics are wasteful at all. The money will all be made back in a variety of ways, and in the end maybe provide additional funding through tax dollars made for social programs. The money will never be seen again if we give these people free money, free homes, and free everything else, like they want. Like I said before, it is CLEARLY not about the Olympics at all, and whatever event comes up after the Olympics will also be a target of theirs, because that's where the attention will be at the time. The APC is just a group of attention getters, a very SMALL group, in comparison to everyone else. But the loudest always drown out everyone else.

subdude
Feb 18, 2008, 11:23 PM
The thing that's really causing problems (besides the ridiculous anti-capitalist, pork-barrel spending on the olympics®) is the overwhelming slant of the media:
How can anyone even read that without being intensely aware of its glaring ideological bias? The protesters are clearly portrayed in opposition to "family" (a word approaching meaninglessness anyway), and are described arriving and leaving quickly (despite that the police presence didn't react strongly); the rally is mentioned only in the title. Just astonishingly propagandic.

Nice try ... Noam Chomsky you ain't. To even write this much about the losers from the APC is too much in my opinion. If we all ignore them they will go away... unfortunately they make for good TV and will always get the attention they crave...

dreambrother808
Feb 19, 2008, 12:33 AM
Awesome post. It'd take some fearsome naiveté to believe that anyone really wants to live on the street. And it's equally ignorant to claim that the APC's violent protests are destroying their cause; think of the other marginalized groups forced to extremes, (The WSPU, especially).

People may not want to live on the street, but they also may not want to take the steps necessary to get THEMSELVES off of it. No, I am not talking about all street people. I am not talking about the mentally ill, etc. But yes, people have chosen certain behaviours that have led themselves down certain roads, period. Nothing anyone else says or does can change that reality. Getting help and dealing with addiction does not involve denying that reality.

The APC is destroying their cause. Their acts may fuel their own sense of self-importance and achievement, but we live in a city in which the majority of residents voted for and want the Olympics to be here. Thumbing your noses at this majority is not in your best interests if you truly care about the DES and want to change things. Self-righteously spitting in the faces of those whose support you need is a poorly thought out route to go down. The APC may have their opinions of the Olympics but most people believe in them, enjoy them on television and greatly look forward to enjoying them while they are here. Try to ruin that and you turn majority opinion quite strongly against your cause... not very smart.

Dorian G.
Feb 19, 2008, 12:53 AM
The olympics are an investment in the same way a lottery ticket or an electric guitar is an investment: it's possible, but not a good idea, especially if you're buying it with someone else's money. If the Olympics are such a good investment for Greater Vancouver, that's who should pay for them, not the whole country and province. If you really like Intrawest enough to buy them a new highway, go ahead—don't make everyone. And what is the residual value of a new bobsled track to most taxpayers? It's not surprising this kind of large-scale waste empowers the APC. I guess we'll have to agree that the APC is as bad as the IOC, (except not as expensive so far). Much as I hate to become the advocate for the APC, Some people on this forum make Ezra Pound look like Jack Layton; it's getting SSC-esque.
Nice try ... Noam Chomsky you ain't. To even write this much about the losers from the APC is too much in my opinion. If we all ignore them they will go away... unfortunately they make for good TV and will always get the attention they crave...Let's refrain from unnecessary negativity; I was actually thinking more about Frederick Jameson and Edward Said anyway. Do you really disagree that the news1130 article is biased? Why do you figure it begins "as families played"? Is the article's value as news enhanced by that kind of sentimental epithet? Think about what you read.

Yume-sama
Feb 19, 2008, 1:16 AM
I don't think you understand the irony in your statement. Sure, housing for the lazy is good (note how I don't say for the mentally or physically handicapped, who can't work or afford housing)... but not with other peoples money, from around the province or Country. The Olympics will actually do something and give back to the community, one only has to look at every past Olympic city to see what it has done for them, Calgary being a perfect example. It sure as hell is a better investment than the "2000 units a year" the APC wants, if all we're concerned about is wasting taxpayer dollars. These people don't have to live in the most expensive city in Canada, but they choose to try to because we give them far more than any other city, or province would be willing to. All without asking anything in return.

mr.x
Feb 19, 2008, 1:25 AM
The olympics are an investment in the same way a lottery ticket or an electric guitar is an investment: it's possible, but not a good idea, especially if you're buying it with someone else's money.

As far as I know, the Olympic Games are a national event and the host city represents the entire nation. Why shouldn't the federal government be involved?

Why shouldn't the entire province be involved? Why would Greater Vancouver's tax dollars go towards funding healthcare in the interior? Why would we even pay taxes if we're so self-centered with our interests?

You need to note that many of the venues are much needed investments to aging community centres or the construction of new ones:

- Hillcrest Curling Centre: the adjacent Riley Park Community Centre and pool is aging quickly and a replacement has always been prioritized by the park board. The Games have been a catalyst for a new community centre, with the Olympic venue being converted into an ice rink, curling ice sheets, and other recreational space. The City has also chipped in more money to build a new aquatic centre, gym, and a new public library branch for the area.

- Practice Facilities: new ice rinks are being built and existing ones, which are aging facilities, are being renovated.

- Pacific Coliseum: $25-million has gone into that facility so that it can be around for at least a few more decades.

- Richmond Oval: again, much needed recreational space for the city

- UBC Winter Sports Centre: aging facility renovated




If you really like Intrawest enough to buy them a new highway, go ahead—don't make everyone.

The highway would've had improvements with or without 2010...these upgrades were only fast tracked a couple of years.



It's not surprising this kind of large-scale waste empowers the APC.

The APC? The group that is led by a man who works for two days a week, and asks for welfare and social housing because he doesn't want to work more than two days?




I guess we'll have to agree that the APC is as bad as the IOC

The IOC has allowed VANOC to cut $25-million from its budget by allowing NHL size rinks. They've also given the organizing committee nearly $250-million extra from IOC international sponsorships and tv rights.

Not to mention that $1.3 billion of VANOC's $2 billion budget is from corporate sponsorship, not taxpayer funded money.

Believe it or not, Vancouver 2010 will be the most modest spending Winter Olympics in recent memory. Individuals have said that the province is recklessly spending money....why haven't they taken a peek at the plans of previous/future cities?




...over the number of days left until the Games [games capitalized? She thinks she's Blake].

It's capitalized because it's a name, short for Olympic Games. What's so wrong about that? In fact, it's proper to capitalize it. Winter Games, 2010 Games, etc. Nothing wrong with it.




I see 2010 as a way to propel ourselves onto the world stage, and as a result it will benefit tourism and our economy substantially. More importantly, beyond the dollar figures, it gives us a sense of renewed civic, provincial, and national pride....something that we lack and haven't seen for quite some time. I see it as a huge confidence booster for us.

mr.x
Feb 19, 2008, 1:29 AM
I don't think you understand the irony in your statement. Sure, housing for the lazy is good (note how I don't say for the mentally or physically handicapped, who can't work or afford housing)... but not with other peoples money, from around the province or Country. The Olympics will actually do something and give back to the community, one only has to look at every past Olympic city to see what it has done for them, Calgary being a perfect example. It sure as hell is a better investment than the "2000 units a year" the APC wants, if all we're concerned about is wasting taxpayer dollars. These people don't have to live in the most expensive city in Canada, but they choose to try to because we give them far more than any other city, or province would be willing to. All without asking anything in return.

Not to mention, how much money have we been spending on social housing over the past few years? It's never enough for these people.

The list below does not include recent social housing announcements within the past year (purchase of dozens of hotels):
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/7697/shousingkg7.jpg

SpongeG
Feb 19, 2008, 3:06 AM
plus the GST collected by it all goes to the federals

mr.x
Feb 19, 2008, 3:10 AM
plus the GST collected by it all goes to the federals

About $2-billion in provincial and federal incremental tax revenues will be generated by the Games.

towerguy3
Feb 19, 2008, 3:36 AM
Well here is the Countdown Clock from today. The yellow paint is gone and it seems to be normal once again. No security person anywhere.

Pay attention to the last image I took today. It is the security camera. It is mounted on the right side of the stairs up against the wall and it is pointing downwards not at the Clock but rather at the ground. Why?

Why Sam Sullivan is the supposed security camera pointed downwards not at the Clock but rather at the ground? Let's take this a step further and suggest the camera is actually dormant and is not even connected!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2249/2276392160_a3fd102836.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2095/2275598431_1f7f87599c.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2081/2275602047_c2d3852439.jpg

deasine
Feb 19, 2008, 3:42 AM
great pics there =)

mr.x
Feb 19, 2008, 3:44 AM
^ because that's not the clock security camera. it's mounted on the roof, and it's inside one of those black sphere things. The picture of the camera you took is probably for the museum's old entrance, in case anyone tries to get in through there and steal an Emily Carr.

great pics btw, good to see the clock is not damaged. but i heard someone poured soap into the fountain, so it was really bubbly this morning.

towerguy3
Feb 19, 2008, 4:00 AM
mr. x2 bang on you're right! As I took the photos I noticed there was foam and soap bubbles all over the ground and on my shoes and all over the fountain! It was hysterical! The foam was splashing out of the fountain and all over the ground much to the amusement of some more protestors that had set up a tent and tv in front!

Soap bubbles and foam everywhere! That's one good thing the protestors left behind! Time for a bath! Rub rub duckie!

Yume-sama
Feb 19, 2008, 4:00 AM
The security cameras probably aren't even real... :P

Stingray2004
Feb 19, 2008, 4:07 AM
It's not surprising this kind of large-scale waste empowers the APC. I guess we'll have to agree that the APC is as bad as the IOC

Ummmmmm.... "empowers" the APC...? Sorry but that's dubious lexicon for antiquated Neanderthal "working class warfare".

In any event, the APC is also a breeding ground for quasi-Squamish-Five types... who are waaaaaaaaay (and I mean WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY) outside the mainstream of society. Remember them? A nice little terrorist organization.

Heck, even former Mayor Mike Harcourt finally came around to admitting that Expo 86 was beneficial for the city as well as for BC as a whole after the fact.

Here's a Calgary thread reminiscing upon the 20th anniversary of the Olympics attesting to the pride the the games brought to that city. Ya might just be of the same mindset during and after the fact.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=145739

SpongeG
Feb 19, 2008, 5:03 AM
i saw that smug little sh*t in the paper andi would glady give him a pounding against the clock yellow paint meh - red blood

towerguy3
Feb 19, 2008, 5:23 AM
I took the second pic (the side counting down to the Olympics) at 5:12 and the first one (the side counting down to the Paralympics) at 5:13, and judging from the fact the hours are saying "00" and the minutes are saying "48" (meaning 00 hours : 48 minutes till the start), the Opening Ceremonies will start at 6 pm sharp for both games.

ckkelley
Feb 19, 2008, 5:47 AM
I'm changing my mindset on these assclowns now. I'm just not going to let it bother me.

I fully expect them to pull some idiotic stunt during the Olympics perhaps more than one. I think that in the world's eyes, they're just gonna look as stupid and moronic to them as they do to us. There was a reported 30 or so odd "protestors" - big fricken whup. They're idiots plain and simple. Idiots that are lucky to live in this country.

I think the world will recognize them as they truly are: a small, insignificant group of crackpots.

The cost to us is the cost of living in a free society.

SpongeG
Feb 19, 2008, 5:56 AM
yeah they have no support from anyone just a bunch of people who need to grow up

selfish too - why do they think only they should have good things in life - what about atheletes and spectators who want to enjoy an event

cornholio
Feb 19, 2008, 7:01 AM
"They make you pay for a spot to live on the planet you were born onto!!"



Maybe they would be happier if the Soviet Union had won the Cold War?:shrug:


New Canada, satellite state of the Great Soviet Union
http://www.usflags.com/images/products/ussr.gif

Well I can tell you that under communism you will not find a single homeless person on the street or a beggar(atleast not in the ex communist country i grew up in). And no its not because they locked them up, its just because there were no poor, everyone had a home. Another thing that probably helped was the 2 years of mandatory military service(i was too young for that). From what I hear the 2 years really straightened young people out. Also the mentally ill were taken care of, and not in a bad way in the country i lved in(my mom was a nurse in a psychiatric ward). So although your right that communism would straighten them up, you should also remember that they wouldent be in these positions in the first place.

mr.x
Feb 19, 2008, 7:03 AM
What about collectivization during Stalin? A lot that opposed, mainly the farmers, were killed or sent to Siberia.

or the lack of consumer goods and food during the 70s and 80s?

zivan56
Feb 19, 2008, 7:11 AM
What about collectivization during Stalin? A lot that opposed, mainly the farmers, were killed or sent to Siberia.

or the lack of consumer goods and food during the 70s and 80s?

Well it depends on the country. Yugoslavia, for example, didn't have any of the issues. In fact, once "democracy" came, everybody was dirt poor and couldn't afford anything.
Although most of the new countries there are still dirt poor after the 90's, there is virtually no homelessness there (I didn't see a single homeless person, just a gypsy or two who refuses to live in a house).

mr.x
Feb 19, 2008, 7:15 AM
Yugoslavia, for example, didn't have any of the issues. In fact, once "democracy" came, everybody was dirt poor and couldn't afford anything.

But they did have a bloody civil war/genocide....you also can't expect a planned economy and society to make a transition to democracy/capitalism overnight.

Yume-sama
Feb 19, 2008, 7:16 AM
Both China and Cuba have serious homeless problems, they also happen to not exactly be the most Democratic of societies, so I don't buy that. Although China has certainly improved its ranking, as only 10% of people in China are estimated to live in poverty (that's still 110 million people), while way back in the 70's it was an estimated 60 percent of the population (over 600 million people). There will be homelessness everywhere, no matter what Country, no matter what policies, it'll just be something that for whatever reason, exists. In Cuba, it is true the % of homeless is smaller than in most Countries. But... the poor just end up living in places like this:

http://www.dn.se/content/1/c6/32/14/08/kubac298.jpg
As documented by the Swedish Daily News in 2004.
http://therealcuba.com/Page10.htm
^ A good website showing just how well off they are in glorious Cuba.

Communism doesn't guarantee everybody will be equally well off, it just means everybody can be equally poor, and have the same low quality of life.

AKA-007
Feb 19, 2008, 7:28 AM
One thing that I found very pleasing was the fact that neither the noon news or the evening news had put this protest near the front of their broadcast, if they put it there at all (I couldn't watch the entire program today). I don't want the media to call attention to the protesters. If I don't know they did something, then I won't give a thought to their cause.

I saw The Province with it on the front page tho, arg.

Yume-sama
Feb 19, 2008, 7:30 AM
They shouldn't be on the news. Your children don't get on the news for coloring your walls with crayons...

zivan56
Feb 19, 2008, 7:43 AM
But they did have a bloody civil war/genocide....you also can't expect a planned economy and society to make a transition to democracy/capitalism overnight.

...which makes it ever more incredible that there is practically no homelessness there. The war had nothing to do with the political system, and would have been prevented had there not been a switch to democracy. The Yugoslav constitution had a provision which had extreme punishment (i.e death or life in prison) for inciting ethnic hatred, but democracy erased all that...

worldwide
Feb 19, 2008, 8:54 AM
i was thinking about this earlier whilestaring at the front page of 24 hours today.

the system we have now doesnt work

the system they propose wont work (building more social housing in the DTES)

the free market wont fix anything

so where do we go from there??? we need to take action. everything will not be OK if we just stand by and watch. but protesting the olympics wont do anything. we need action

Nutterbug
Feb 19, 2008, 3:43 PM
They shouldn't be on the news. Your children don't get on the news for coloring your walls with crayons...

The police aren't going to arrest them for it either.

jlousa
Feb 19, 2008, 5:47 PM
I don't think the issue with the APC is as much their cause, it's their actions. No one here complains about Chris Shaw and his no games website or his letters to the the media, I don't agree with him but there's no issue with what he's doing.
If there was some group pushing for more public transit, or density that resorted to these tatics I'd be the first to bad mouth them even if I agreed with their cause. There are better ways.

twoNeurons
Feb 19, 2008, 6:17 PM
Very interesting posts. I knew a little bit about Yugoslavia, but that's very interesting. I've heard similar things from others too.

About how, democracy brought crushing poverty... or at the very least, widened the gap between the rich and the poor.

Let's face it, Capitalism revolves around money.

EastVanMark
Feb 19, 2008, 6:52 PM
Well it depends on the country. Yugoslavia, for example, didn't have any of the issues. In fact, once "democracy" came, everybody was dirt poor and couldn't afford anything.
Although most of the new countries there are still dirt poor after the 90's, there is virtually no homelessness there (I didn't see a single homeless person, just a gypsy or two who refuses to live in a house).

No shit they were dirt poor. They just came out of a long, bloody war that cost a ton to fight, that in some areas destroyed a ton of infrastructure.

So for many of these new republics that came about after the war, they literally had to start from zero. It takes a great deal of time for the economic engines to get going. Some of these republics had to borrow massive amounts of money just to get decent roads, railways, and other essential infrastructure built. Not to mention the fact that after so many years (generations actually), the people had gotten so used to having the government control just about every aspect of their lives, that they found it hard to cope with newer free market forces. The exact same thing happened in Russia except on a much grander scale. Its kind of like here in Vancouver. For a few decades now, the people in power of the city have gradually just given up on head office jobs and to this day have nifty (aka:weak) explanations as to why this had/is happening. After hearing that for a while, people just accept it as absolute truth and therefore, nobody does anything about it.

EastVanMark
Feb 19, 2008, 7:39 PM
...which makes it ever more incredible that there is practically no homelessness there. The war had nothing to do with the political system, and would have been prevented had there not been a switch to democracy. The Yugoslav constitution had a provision which had extreme punishment (i.e death or life in prison) for inciting ethnic hatred, but democracy erased all that...

The war had EVERYTHING to do with the political system; in that the republics who declared their independence wanted nothing more to do with a system whereby one group had dominance over the rest even though they were all supposed to have an equal say on how the country (Yugoslavia) was governed not to mention rights for self determination of the republics AND secession should they (the republics) choose to. (Also found in the constitution).

zivan56
Feb 19, 2008, 7:55 PM
The war had EVERYTHING to do with the political system; in that the republics who declared their independence wanted nothing more to do with a system whereby one group had dominance over the rest even though they were all supposed to have an equal say on how the country (Yugoslavia) was governed not to mention rights for self determination of the republics AND secession should they (the republics) choose to. (Also found in the constitution).

The war nothing to do with the political system, it could have been democratic and still have happened. In fact, if the previous system was in place when the war started, it would have avoided the war. Not to mention the likes of Milosevic would have never shown up. There was a clause for succession in the constitution, but it would have never been used had Milosevic not come to power.

zivan56
Feb 19, 2008, 7:59 PM
No shit they were dirt poor. They just came out of a long, bloody war that cost a ton to fight, that in some areas destroyed a ton of infrastructure.

So for many of these new republics that came about after the war, they literally had to start from zero. It takes a great deal of time for the economic engines to get going. Some of these republics had to borrow massive amounts of money just to get decent roads, railways, and other essential infrastructure built. Not to mention the fact that after so many years (generations actually), the people had gotten so used to having the government control just about every aspect of their lives, that they found it hard to cope with newer free market forces. The exact same thing happened in Russia except on a much grander scale. Its kind of like here in Vancouver. For a few decades now, the people in power of the city have gradually just given up on head office jobs and to this day have nifty (aka:weak) explanations as to why this had/is happening. After hearing that for a while, people just accept it as absolute truth and therefore, nobody does anything about it.

The Yugoslav economy was completely different from the Soviet economy. There was private businesses and most companies exported to both the East and West. The Soviet economy was isolationist and extremely controlled. You could perhaps compare it with France of that time, especially around the 80's. Consumer goods were abundant, and people imported whatever they wanted. So your argument works only for the Soviet bloc countries.

twoNeurons
Feb 19, 2008, 8:58 PM
I think that we can agree that all the governments we've tried so far pretty much suck in one way or another.

Maybe the problem's with people.

EastVanMark
Feb 20, 2008, 12:47 AM
The war nothing to do with the political system, it could have been democratic and still have happened. In fact, if the previous system was in place when the war started, it would have avoided the war. Not to mention the likes of Milosevic would have never shown up. There was a clause for succession in the constitution, but it would have never been used had Milosevic not come to power.

No, it was because of the system that the war took place. It wasn't democratic before, and only succeeded because the old regime went to great lengths to ensure there weren't any opposition. Of course if the old system was in place the war would have never happened....they would have crushed any disobedience instantaneously. Remember, those were the days of secret police and going to jail for even uttering a negative word about the government. Heck, some songs were officially banned for half a century. If you spoke out against the government, you got a royal beating and a prison sentence; and if you kept it up, you might not ever be seen again altogether. The very reason that the "old system" failed was that the republics deeply disliked it and wanted to have much more say as to how their region was run.
The war could only had been averted if more power was given to the individual republics. However the largest ethnic group which for all intensive purposes ran the country would never and as history proved didn't allow it.
That is why the war began

EastVanMark
Feb 20, 2008, 1:58 AM
The Yugoslav economy was completely different from the Soviet economy. There was private businesses and most companies exported to both the East and West. The Soviet economy was isolationist and extremely controlled. You could perhaps compare it with France of that time, especially around the 80's. Consumer goods were abundant, and people imported whatever they wanted. So your argument works only for the Soviet bloc countries.

Ya your right about there economy being much different than the Soviet Union which as you correctly pointed out was isolationist. However, although not AS controlled, it still was still controlled and nowhere near the economy of France. For example, the limit for the number of employees allowed for a private company was 6! Anything larger was government property or ran by organizations which were influenced by the government. There was also controls on what and the amount of goods that were allowed to enter the country, and by the time they got to market, they were priced extremely high. Trade barriers forced the government into massive debt and caused it to devalue its currency. And when a new aid package was agreed on with the US in the late 80's the US insisted that the country adopt more of a free market system. (which they did...cause they needed the money).

mr.x
Feb 20, 2008, 4:26 AM
No arrests yet for vandalism of Olympic Countdown Clock

Ian Austin, The Province
Published: Tuesday, February 19, 2008

Vancouver police have yet to make an arrest following the paintballing of the Olympic Countdown Clock in Vancouver.

Two paintballs hit the clock when about 75 protesters from the Anti-Poverty Committee gathered Sunday in front of the Vancouver Art Gallery. Two posters were also stuck on the clock.

Police questioned members of the media following the fracas, asking them to identify who hurled the yellow paint.

"We will be following it up," police spokesman Const. Tim Fanning said yesterday.

"As soon as we have more on it, we will let you know."

An Olympics spokeswoman said no plans are being made to step up security for the clock. A security guard was posted after an earlier attack.

iaustin@png.canwest.com

zivan56
Feb 20, 2008, 6:09 AM
No, it was because of the system that the war took place. It wasn't democratic before, and only succeeded because the old regime went to great lengths to ensure there weren't any opposition. Of course if the old system was in place the war would have never happened....they would have crushed any disobedience instantaneously. Remember, those were the days of secret police and going to jail for even uttering a negative word about the government. Heck, some songs were officially banned for half a century. If you spoke out against the government, you got a royal beating and a prison sentence; and if you kept it up, you might not ever be seen again altogether. The very reason that the "old system" failed was that the republics deeply disliked it and wanted to have much more say as to how their region was run.
The war could only had been averted if more power was given to the individual republics. However the largest ethnic group which for all intensive purposes ran the country would never and as history proved didn't allow it.
That is why the war began

Again, you seem to be referring to the Soviet system. You could criticize anything you wanted in Yugoslavia in the 80's, and in fact, many musicians did so even in the late 70's without any problems. The only censorship put on them was an extra charge on a LP for "explicit language." One movie I remember that was banned was about how Serbs were being harassed/driven out of Kosovo in the 70-80's due (which is quite true). This was due to mentioned constitutional laws.
Nobody was arrested or imprisoned after the 70's, and student protests in the 60's were actually listened to and their ideas considered by the government. This was right after Yugoslavia attempted to be "truly" communist in the 50's.

The old system was actually quite liked, it was Milosevic trying to take over every republic that was not. This was not like the Soviet Union system.
Also, under the "old system" all the republics had significant autonomy, and so did Kosovo actually, it was Milosevic that started the whole war. I bet if you did a poll today, you would find most people would have stayed within Yugoslavia had Milosevic come to power.

zivan56
Feb 20, 2008, 6:20 AM
Ya your right about there economy being much different than the Soviet Union which as you correctly pointed out was isolationist. However, although not AS controlled, it still was still controlled and nowhere near the economy of France. For example, the limit for the number of employees allowed for a private company was 6! Anything larger was government property or ran by organizations which were influenced by the government. There was also controls on what and the amount of goods that were allowed to enter the country, and by the time they got to market, they were priced extremely high. Trade barriers forced the government into massive debt and caused it to devalue its currency. And when a new aid package was agreed on with the US in the late 80's the US insisted that the country adopt more of a free market system. (which they did...cause they needed the money).

Well, it all depends on what you mean by "controlled." Although the government theoretically "owned" all companies, they were not run by the government. Instead, they were run like private businesses. In fact, during the time of "worker self management" they were run by the employees of the companies.
Of course there were trade barrier, since Yugoslavia was part of the non-aligned movement, they couldn't rely on any bloc for supplies, and had to maintain significant autonomy from the world market in order to hold onto their neutrality.
Trade barriers were probably the last thing that caused inflation, it was caused by huge loans given so readily under the Marshall plan and other US based banks and organizations. This money was given practically unconditionally, and now the US and World Bank started asking for all their money back at once with huge interest rates. In fact, Kennedy actually sent locomotives (made in Ontario) to Yugoslavia for practically nothing as a "goodwill gesture." The US was the bullet that killed the economy, as they forced Yugoslavia to unwillingly change their economic system in order to not face even higher interest rates and have a part of their debt written off. Had Yugoslavia refused, they would have been way better off
Export was what every major company in Yugoslavia did.
I believe Croatia just reached it's pre-war economic status in the last couple of years, while other countries are not 1/2 of what they were before. However, Croatia now has huge debts as well, and future economic growth is what they are gambling on to pay that off.

EastVanMark
Feb 20, 2008, 7:12 AM
Again, you seem to be referring to the Soviet system. You could criticize anything you wanted in Yugoslavia in the 80's, and in fact, many musicians did so even in the late 70's without any problems. The only censorship put on them was an extra charge on a LP for "explicit language." One movie I remember that was banned was about how Serbs were being harassed/driven out of Kosovo in the 70-80's due (which is quite true). This was due to mentioned constitutional laws.
Nobody was arrested or imprisoned after the 70's, and student protests in the 60's were actually listened to and their ideas considered by the government. This was right after Yugoslavia attempted to be "truly" communist in the 50's.

The old system was actually quite liked, it was Milosevic trying to take over every republic that was not. This was not like the Soviet Union system.
Also, under the "old system" all the republics had significant autonomy, and so did Kosovo actually, it was Milosevic that started the whole war. I bet if you did a poll today, you would find most people would have stayed within Yugoslavia had Milosevic come to power.

Student protests listened to? Hardly. The government put out a token newscast where they stated they would take the students ideas into consideration...then promptly went out and found out the organizers of the rally and sentenced them to 4 years in prison. (Yup, thats freedom alright).
Ya, everyone liked the old system soooooo much that they fled the country in droves. (Even in the 80's). Remember a neighbor of mine telling me how he couldn't have his wedding in a church (in 1986), for fear of losing his cushy government job! Yes, times did get better in the 80's, but it still was a long way from what we here consider freedom. I bet if you did a poll east of the Danube river, yes, you might find many would miss the days they siphoned wealth from the richer republics to the west.
But having been there 2 years ago, I will assure you NOBODY from the first 2 republics to declare their independence in the early 90's, misses a damm thing about Communism OR the former Yugoslavia and judging from the looks of the faces of those from the most recent republic to declare independence on the weekend, who I got stuck behind on Kingsway, they don't miss it one bit either.

EastVanMark
Feb 20, 2008, 7:50 AM
Well, it all depends on what you mean by "controlled." Although the government theoretically "owned" all companies, they were not run by the government. Instead, they were run like private businesses. In fact, during the time of "worker self management" they were run by the employees of the companies.
Of course there were trade barrier, since Yugoslavia was part of the non-aligned movement, they couldn't rely on any bloc for supplies, and had to maintain significant autonomy from the world market in order to hold onto their neutrality.
Trade barriers were probably the last thing that caused inflation, it was caused by huge loans given so readily under the Marshall plan and other US based banks and organizations. This money was given practically unconditionally, and now the US and World Bank started asking for all their money back at once with huge interest rates. In fact, Kennedy actually sent locomotives (made in Ontario) to Yugoslavia for practically nothing as a "goodwill gesture." The US was the bullet that killed the economy, as they forced Yugoslavia to unwillingly change their economic system in order to not face even higher interest rates and have a part of their debt written off. Had Yugoslavia refused, they would have been way better off
Export was what every major company in Yugoslavia did.
I believe Croatia just reached it's pre-war economic status in the last couple of years, while other countries are not 1/2 of what they were before. However, Croatia now has huge debts as well, and future economic growth is what they are gambling on to pay that off.

No, technically, the government didn't own the companies; however, look who was on the board of those companies. In almost every case, a communist party insider. ( a co-incidence I'm sure). The Marshal plan aid came just after WWII and therefore had little impact on the economy of the late 1980's. InI was talking about 1989, when Yugoslavia approached President Bush (senior) and Bush laid out the terms and The Yugoslavians agreed. One of the terms included the death of those "popular" worker owned/operated companies. So, actually, they had no choice but to accept or face dire financial consequences.

Of course Croatia has only recently attained the same levels they had before the war. That is expected. They had to start the economy from scratch. Every region involved in a war goes through this. And you are right in that it is a gamble, but a gamble THEY will undertake, rather than being at the mercy and the whim of somebody else who resides elsewhere to make the decisions for you.

zivan56
Feb 20, 2008, 7:54 AM
Student protests listened to? Hardly. The government put out a token newscast where they stated they would take the students ideas into consideration...then promptly went out and found out the organizers of the rally and sentenced them to 4 years in prison. (Yup, thats freedom alright).
Ya, everyone liked the old system soooooo much that they fled the country in droves. (Even in the 80's). Remember a neighbor of mine telling me how he couldn't have his wedding in a church (in 1986), for fear of losing his cushy government job! Yes, times did get better in the 80's, but it still was a long way from what we here consider freedom.

Well I typed out a pretty detailed answer, but my computer froze..so here is the jist of it:
Yes, they were listened to...it was quite obvious that the education system was changed shortly after, giving more standardized classes and more student rights as was protested. Nobody went to prison there, but there were violent protests where people were justly detained for inciting it.
Who exactly fled? Lets see...Nazi/Italian sympathizers, people who tried to overthrow the goverment, extremist groups? I would say this is pretty key to keeping the country secure. Most immigration was temporary, which was working in Germany and coming back a few years later. Entering/leaving the country wasn't restricted, and with a Yugoslav passport you could go to almost any country in the world without a visa...now, overnight, it is required for all the new republics.
You would only lose your job if you were a military employee and attended religious events...and the justification was clearly seen during the war with the religious fanatics coming from every side (gee, I wonder why it wasn't allowed?)
Freedom isn't defined the same everywhere. I can tell you every person from there I know talks about the good old times, even the young people. The only people who don't are the ones who current have nice cozy jobs in the government. In fact, workers rights are down in the shitter nowadays, with 10 hour work days being the norm...and not the lazy North American work, but the boss with a whip behind you (figuratively speaking).
Great, now people have freedom. But they work more, earn less, have almost no vacation, and just work/sleep. Pretty pathetic way to live IMO...I would give my freedom anytime for a 10-3 work day, very affordable housing, universal heathcare, and having plenty of time to enjoy life. Let the politicians shit sling at each other, I couldn't care less about my freedom.

EastVanMark
Feb 20, 2008, 8:27 AM
Well I typed out a pretty detailed answer, but my computer froze..so here is the jist of it:
Yes, they were listened to...it was quite obvious that the education system was changed shortly after, giving more standardized classes and more student rights as was protested. Nobody went to prison there, but there were violent protests where people were justly detained for inciting it.
Who exactly fled? Lets see...Nazi/Italian sympathizers, people who tried to overthrow the goverment, extremist groups? I would say this is pretty key to keeping the country secure. Most immigration was temporary, which was working in Germany and coming back a few years later. Entering/leaving the country wasn't restricted, and with a Yugoslav passport you could go to almost any country in the world without a visa...now, overnight, it is required for all the new republics.
You would only lose your job if you were a military employee and attended religious events...and the justification was clearly seen during the war with the religious fanatics coming from every side (gee, I wonder why it wasn't allowed?)
Freedom isn't defined the same everywhere. I can tell you every person from there I know talks about the good old times, even the young people. The only people who don't are the ones who current have nice cozy jobs in the government. In fact, workers rights are down in the shitter nowadays, with 10 hour work days being the norm...and not the lazy North American work, but the boss with a whip behind you (figuratively speaking).
Great, now people have freedom. But they work more, earn less, have almost no vacation, and just work/sleep. Pretty pathetic way to live IMO...I would give my freedom anytime for a 10-3 work day, very affordable housing, universal heathcare, and having plenty of time to enjoy life. Let the politicians shit sling at each other, I couldn't care less about my freedom.

Nazi sympathizers? People who tried to overthrow the government? Puh-lease!
Nobody went to prison? Not even close. This seems to be straight out of the George Bush's "lets invade Iraq to keep us safe" book of fear and paranoia. But then again fear mongering is a common trait of Communist regimes. Keep people scared and you've got control over them. Immigration temporary? Again, not even close! Look it up. Until the late 60's, leaving the country WAS restricted. Losing your job cause you attended a religious event? How fucking ridiculous is that? A person's religion is for most people THEE most important thing to them. Nobody has the right to take that away or repress it. But again, Communists knew that religion was a refuge for people and therefore wanted to eliminate it. Kinda reminds me of how cults don't allow any TV's, radios, or newspapers to be around...Its easier to brainwash people that way.

Ya, freedom isn't defined the same...here in Canada its::) ...over there back then:;) :hell: :whip:

Communism is a proven loser and wanting it is like wanting a ticket on the Titanic AFTER it hit the iceberg. I feel for you. Maybe you can move to Cuba or China to be with more of your "comrades". I heard one of them even has an Olympics going on soon (see, its just like Vancouver). Then again, if the NDP gets back into power, maybe you wouldn't have to move after all...:haha: