Did we error in not building a highway through the watershed?

[towerguy3]

I see there's another big accident on the Sea To Sky Highway tonight and traffic is closed off in both directions.

Which brings us back to the argument that an alternate bypass road should've been built through the Watershed in time for 2010 so that if the Sea To Sky should be closed off due to an accident (such as tonight's situation) during the Olympics, we'd still be able to get people back and forth on the Watershed highway and avoid embarrassing ourselves with having events cancelled.

I realize there were a lot of arguments for and against and a lot of concern about environmental impact on the Watershed...

but I ask you, what will we do now if there's a major mudslide or catastrophic incident on that Sea to Sky during 2010 and the highway is closed for a few days?

[mr.x]

The watershed option would've required an 8-km tunnel through Grouse Mountain (or was it Seymour)? Not to mention, the cost would've been around $6-billion. Do we really need another highway to Whistler for a 17-day event?

Upgrading the Sea-to-Sky was the right decision. And right now, Sea-to-Sky improvements are still ongoing and won't be finished until Fall 2009. Sightlines are being improved, lanes are being widened, more lanes are being built are certain sections, rock wall retainers are being built, etc.

We're basically doing all we can do to prevent crashes, with regards to the technical challenges of the road. The problem is now with the drivers. They're speeding:



Speed and unsafe driving are the cause of Sea to Sky crash this morning
Feb, 14 2008 - 2:10 PM

SQUAMISH/CKNW(AM980) - Speed and unsafe passing are the cause of this morning's crash on highway 99, which closed the “Sea to Sky” highway.

A 19 year old woman from Squamish was driving over 100 kilometres an hour, and had passed vehicles in areas where there is a double solid yellow line.

She lost control of the car and it flipped onto its roof.

She was lucky that she just had minor injuries, but she can expect to be charged.

[deasine]

The $6 Billion would've been better spent on a high-speed railway linking Whistler and Vancouver.

[mr.x]

The $6 Billion would've been better spent on a high-speed railway linking Whistler and Vancouver.

...which is also not needed.

Aren't there future Translink plans to run a commuter train from Squamish to North Vancouver/Lonsdale?

[Architype]

It would be nice to have another highway, not just for the Olympics event, but for the future. But $6 billion is an unbelievable amount. And there is already a rail link.

[deasine]

...which is also not needed.

Aren't there future Translink plans to run a commuter train from Squamish to North Vancouver/Lonsdale?

Nope it isn't needed. But if we were to choose a highway or the rail, I would choose the rail. We might not need highspeed, but something better than what we have now: the Whistler Mountaineer.

There were plans but I think they were mere concepts. Remember Gordon Campbell announced a bus connection to Whistler by 2020 (might be the WCE-style bus)

[jlousa]

Actually there are plans for a WCE style train to Squamish. I'll try to find the details.

For 6 Billion dollars I'd rather have 2 more alrt lines and a bridge to Vancouver Island instead. Towerguy, once you start working and start paying taxes you'll find you won't support as many fancy unnecessary things paid for by the government.

[towerguy3]

Tunnel? As it is now is there not a Watershed access road from the North Shore up to Whistler used for Watershed maintenance? There is some sort of route that's not through a mountain. I can see it on GoogleEarth.

[mr.x]

For 6 Billion dollars I'd rather have 2 more alrt lines and a bridge to Vancouver Island instead.

A bridge to the island is more around the $30-45 billion range.

I'd prefer to see $6 billion go towards transit instead, particularly the eastern suburbs in the region and an LRT in Victoria.

[mr.x]

Tunnel? As it is now is there not a Watershed access road from the North Shore up to Whistler used for Watershed maintenance? There is some sort of route that's not through a mountain. I can see it on GoogleEarth.

The options released for the Olympic link to Whistler in 2002 prior to the international 2010 bid were:

- $5-billion high speed railway
- $6-billion new highway through North Shore mountains with massive 8-km mountain tunnel through Grouse (i think)
- $4-billion upgrade of access highway near Coquitlam to Whistler
- ~$2-billion to upgrade Sea-to-Sky to freeway standards
- $600 million modest upgrade to the Sea-to-Sky highway

There was quite a bit of opposition to all of these (it was the headlines), so much that the last option was the most favourable.

[deasine]

The options released for the Olympic link to Whistler in 2002 prior to the international 2010 bid were:

- $5-billion high speed railway
- $6-billion new highway through North Shore mountains with massive 8-km mountain tunnel through Grouse (i think)
- $4-billion upgrade of access highway near Coquitlam to Whistler
- ~$2-billion to upgrade Sea-to-Sky to freeway standards
- $600 million modest upgrade to the Sea-to-Sky highway

There was quite a bit of opposition to all of these (it was the headlines), so much that the last option was the most favourable.

It's also the most economical option. I can't imagine what the Auditor General's report if we gone with number 2. -_-

PS: I forgot, thank you Mr. X for making the 2010 Olympic & Paralympic Winter Games section =D

[mr.x]

...excluding inflation.

[deasine]

what is "freeway" standards... 3 lanes (per direction) all the way up?

[jlousa]

Couldn't find the document I was looking for but found this one which looks like will start by offering WCE rapid buses. The other one I saw specifically mentioned a rail line with 4 options and would get you from Waterfront St to Whistler in 90 minutes or less.



TransLink will launch a premium bus service for commuters heading to downtown Vancouver from outlying areas not already served by West Coast Express (WCE). The high-end service will be similar to what’s provided by WCE’s passenger rail service – only on buses. But while WCE serves northeast sector communities out as far as Mission, the new concept would go much farther – serving downtown-bound residents from as far as White Rock, Chilliwack and Whistler. Prices would be subject to refinement, but TransLink says applying WCE per-kilometre prices means long-haul trips from Chilliwack or Whistler might cost $20, and shorter commutes from Ladner, Tsawwassen or the Tri-Cities might run $6.75.

- White Rock/South Surrey to downtown Vancouver;
- Ladner and Tsawwassen to downtown;
- Pemberton, Whistler and Squamish to downtown;
- Chilliwack, Abbotsford and Mission to Surrey, Coquitlam or downtown Vancouver.

Much of the groundwork has already been laid by the WCE’s TrainBus service, which is a premium bus service that provides extra runs in addition to the five trains per day. The experience there suggests there’s a regional market for similar service outside the northeast sector. TransLink stats show WCE passengers are more likely than other transit users to be affluent, employed full time and commuting for work purposes.

West Coast Express needs to go from being a “localized premium brand” to an “enhanced regional premium brand.”
The features should “offer drivers comparable comfort and convenience to a single occupant vehicle so that they would switch to the premium regional WCE service for their commute.”
Key attributes will include:
- Ride quality, including smoothness, leg room and seat type.
- Amenities like plug-ins for audio and TV, trays for computers, head phones, washrooms, reclining seats, individual temperature and reading light controls; coffee and newspapers for sale.
- Ability to reserve a specific seat.
- Luggage and bike storage.
Stations should be heated with wireless internet access and real-time arrival/departure information.
They should have adequate parking and bike storage and may offer other services – from coffee/news stands to dry cleaning or other retail shops and services.
Reserved parking should also be available – at a premium price of up to $60 per month.
Vehicles could include “premium highway coaches, double decker highway coaches and other premium transportation alternatives.”
The documents emphasize that current quality of WCE must be maintained.
Spokesman Ken Hardie said the potential commuter service to Abbotsford and Chilliwack may be one way to extend offerings east, in line with provincial expectations that Abbotsford and Chilliwack may join TransLink.
“This may be one way of getting those urban connections established,” he said.

Possible prices to downtown
(based on 2008 West Coast Express rates)
Tri-Cities – $6.75 (32 km)
Ladner/Tsawwassen – $6.75 (25-32 km)
Maple Ridge – $8.25 (43 km)
White Rock – $8.25 (48 km)
Mission – $11.25 (65 km)
Squamish – $11.25 (66 km)
Abbotsford – $12 (70 km)
Chilliwack – $20 (102 km)
Whistler – $20 (124 km)

[Rusty Gull]

Tunnel? As it is now is there not a Watershed access road from the North Shore up to Whistler used for Watershed maintenance? There is some sort of route that's not through a mountain. I can see it on GoogleEarth.

Are you referring to the route from Indian Arm to Squamish? I think it's a BC Hydro route currently. It would probably make for a feasible highway route -- but there would be the mother of all protests on the North Shore, plus area environmentalists. I don't personally see it happening in our lifetimes. Just not enough population to warrant it.

I'd rather see some of these commuter rail options on the Sea-to-Sky route come to fruition.

[towerguy3]

Jlousa what made you think I don't work and pay taxes? How else would I be able to afford that steak you think I'm going to buy you?

[Rusty Gull]

It would be nice to have another highway, not just for the Olympics event, but for the future. But $6 billion is an unbelievable amount. And there is already a rail link.

There is a rail line that serves cargo and tourists perfectly well. But what about the rest of us? We need that line utilized for commuting, ala West Coast Express. The Rocky Mountain Railtour is a nice service, but at least the old BC Rail route was geared as much for the locals.

[towerguy3]

We still have not addressed what we're going to do if something catastrophic should happen to that highway during the games? A massive mudslide is not out of the question. It's happened before. What if we get the Pineapple Express, high winds and heavy rain and the mountainside gives way?

On some freeways such as I-5 in Seattle, tanker trucks and trucks carrying flammable materials are prohibited. Might similar restrictions against dangerous and flammable cargo trucks be instituted for 2010 for that highway?

I just don't want to think about the implications of a head on collision involving a fuel truck on that highway during the 17 days...

[jlousa]

There is also a hydro ROW/logging roads from Harrison Hot Springs up to Mt Currie, I've taken it a few times when I used to off-road, there are only a couple of creeks to cross and it would be relativly cheap to turn into a road any car could use.

[deasine]

We still have not addressed what we're going to do if something catastrophic should happen to that highway during the games? A massive mudslide is not out of the question. It's happened before. What if we get the Pineapple Express, high winds and heavy rain and the mountainside gives way?

On some freeways such as I-5 in Seattle, tanker trucks and trucks carrying flammable materials are prohibited. Might similar restrictions against dangerous and flammable cargo trucks be instituted for 2010 for that highway?

I just don't want to think about the implications of a head on collision involving a fuel truck on that highway during the 17 days...

Don't be so pushy - and the fact of the matter is that we dont' know. Funny thing Global hasn't addressed this problem throughout the Destination Whistler coverage. A little disappointed.

[mr.x]

Note that the Sea-to-Sky will be closed to general traffic from 5 am to 8 pm for the duration of the Games. The highway will be opened to only Olympic traffic, which consists of buses, VIP vehicles, VANOC vehicles, and commercial vehicles.

[towerguy3]

I found this route on GoogleEarth (coordinates shown at bottom) which starts at the north end of Harrison Lake and seems to follow the river a little ways. It appears to go by Lillooet Glacier further north.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2031/2267815255_c1096cdb4b.jpg

[jlousa]

Good thing you found it, that route was lost.

Don't worry though if the Sea to Sky highway gets closed during the Olympics no one will notice, the whole world will still be in shock about us using a 25yr old stadium w/o a retractable roof. :tup:

[towerguy3]

This appears to be the end of the route joining up with 99 around Mount Currie. Appears to be Hydro right of way. At any rate, it's too far out of Vancouver to be a practical route.

[towerguy3]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2329/2267829765_57c10626ac.jpg

[towerguy3]

JLousa what's the scoop?

[twoNeurons]

deasine, freeways standards mean at LEAST a divided highway.

[cornholio]

Tower guy the accident today was past Squamish so none of the options that were available would of helped.

Mr.X can you get some links to where you got the numbers from because from what I remember the most expensive option was just over 3 billion for a new 4 lane highway along indian arm and up to Squamish. This would of been a extension of Gaglardi way over the east side of Burnaby mountain with a new brdige to Belcara/Anmore. After that it would of followed Indian Arm and then the Valley north of there to Squamish. Personally I thought that was a much better option for to many reasons to mention right now, even considering the higher cost.

Jlousa the road along Harrison and Lilooet up to Mt Currie/Pemberton is planed to be paved and turned in to a semi highway, or at least that was always the plan. There has really been no new news about that in a few years though so who knows whats happening. Personally I would like it to stay the way it is to keep away the city folk from some world class chill spots but in reality it makes sense to pave it and fix it up. It wouldent be very expensive either and it would serve the indian reserve ghettos up there and cut several hours of of commute times for people from Coquitlam and east of there to get up to Whistler/Pemberton area.

[mr.x]

Mr.X can you get some links to where you got the numbers from because from what I remember the most expensive option was just over 3 billion for a new 4 lane highway along indian arm and up to Squamish. This would of been a extension of Gaglardi way over the east side of Burnaby mountain with a new brdige to Belcara/Anmore. After that it would of followed Indian Arm and then the Valley north of there to Squamish. Personally I thought that was a much better option for to many reasons to mention right now, even considering the higher cost.

I'm quite sure the most expensive option was much higher than $3-billion. Some numbers may be a little off since it has been quite a few years, but I was actually vehemently against to most of these proposals at that time (and because of this, I was also against the Games believe it or not :p)....I remember it distinctively.

[nname]

I'm quite sure the most expensive option was much higher than $3-billion. Some numbers may be a little off since it has been quite a few years, but I was actually vehemently against to most of these proposals at that time (and because of this, I was also against the Games believe it or not :p)....I remember it distinctively.
According to this (http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/publications/reports_and_studies/Sea-to-Sky_Reports/Highway99_Corridor_Improvements.pdf), this particular route costs 3.9 bil to Squamish and 370 mil more to Whisler (2000 dollars)

[mr.x]

ohhhh, thanks for the link. i guess i did remember it wrong.

memory inflation anyone?:haha:

[SpongeG]

isn't there a plan to ban drivers from the sea to shy during the olympics?

i thought i read once that they wanted only olympiv vehicles to use it and special buses to get spectators in and out

[mr.x]

^ the Sea-to-Sky will be closed to general traffic from 5 am to 8 pm for the duration of the Games. The highway will be opened to only Olympic traffic, which consists of buses, VIP vehicles, VANOC vehicles, and commercial vehicles.

[deasine]

From the Transportation in 2010 Thread:
http://members.shaw.ca/clauf/whistlervanoc.png

There should be a lot of bus service between Whistler and Vancouver - and frequent buses too.

[Nutterbug]

I see there's another big accident on the Sea To Sky Highway tonight and traffic is closed off in both directions.

Which brings us back to the argument that an alternate bypass road should've been built through the Watershed in time for 2010 so that if the Sea To Sky should be closed off due to an accident (such as tonight's situation) during the Olympics, we'd still be able to get people back and forth on the Watershed highway and avoid embarrassing ourselves with having events cancelled.

I realize there were a lot of arguments for and against and a lot of concern about environmental impact on the Watershed...

but I ask you, what will we do now if there's a major mudslide or catastrophic incident on that Sea to Sky during 2010 and the highway is closed for a few days?
In the event of a major catastrophic incident, we'll have more important things to worry about than whether or not the games are disrupted.

This appears to be the end of the route joining up with 99 around Mount Currie. Appears to be Hydro right of way. At any rate, it's too far out of Vancouver to be a practical route.
It's an emergency backup, for god's sake!!! You can't fuss about it too much, or invest too much into something that may never be needed.

[Nutterbug]

Jlousa the road along Harrison and Lilooet up to Mt Currie/Pemberton is planed to be paved and turned in to a semi highway, or at least that was always the plan. There has really been no new news about that in a few years though so who knows whats happening. Personally I would like it to stay the way it is to keep away the city folk from some world class chill spots but in reality it makes sense to pave it and fix it up. It wouldent be very expensive either and it would serve the indian reserve ghettos up there and cut several hours of of commute times for people from Coquitlam and east of there to get up to Whistler/Pemberton area.

Why not just pave it and make for a good shortcut for those who may want to hit the slopes and the hot springs on the same day? Help give Harrison and area's tourism and economy a shot in the arm, like they've been doing for Whistler with countless millions already.