Old Phoenix Neighborhoods Compared to Today

[PHX31]

I was looking around on the assessor's web and came across this old plat map from 1892:

http://members.cox.net/mmblueaz/untitled.JPG

It is of the "Capitol Addition"... the neighborhood west of the state capitol, to about where I-17 is today. I found a few things interesting about this. First, look at the north/south roads. Originally, they are actually named, rather than just numbered avenues. Although it would be harder to navigate the city, I've always kind of wanted named north/south streets just like our east/west streets.

Second, now, here is the neighborhood today:
http://members.cox.net/mmblueaz/untitled2.JPG

Aside from going through some serious decay, and it being a travesty that it couldn't have been preserved in its original state through care and maintenance through out the years... what has the city done to itself?
I mean there are some almost multi-family "PJs" or "projects" out there, and the worst thing is the commercial/Industrial land uses on the north and south of the neighborhood. There are some rough/terrible looking businesses and steel companies, etc. It's like once the city allowed a change in zoning, a cancer spread over the neighborhood with the edges in horrendous shape (money outflow probably then coincided).

Is this another blame we can peg on Phoenix's sprawl? Did our easy money on the fringes suck the money out of our central neighborhoods faster than it normally would have, or are other cities out there in the same boat? It just seems like Phoenix's central city neighborhoods, more than any other city out there, have just completely fallen apart/decayed.

Is it the sprawl or the zoning changes? Either way, I want to punch the leaders of Phoenix-past in the mouth.

Anyway, I love the look of the grid of the original neighborhood.


EDIT: I just realized that this plat was dated, signed, published, and dedicated on my birthday (October 22).

[tempedude]

Three thoughts:

1. Rapid growth (post WWII)
2.Cheap land on the fringes and assembly line style housing
3.Car crazed society leads to sprawl

All lead to inner-city decay.

However, I agree and sure do wish the old historic neighborhoods were preserved better with good leadership, instead of allowing them to fall into decay.

Yes other cities are in the same boat....Sprawl cities like Columbus,OH and Indianapolis,IN suffer in similar fashion from my observations. I have seen it first hand. However, maybe not as many empty lots as here, but the decay is a real issue with those cities. This is absolutely not strictly a Phoenix problem.

[combusean]

If you think that's a trip, some earlier plat maps from Book 1 list McDowell as 16th Street--which I think is why McDowell is at the 1600 N block, but Roosevelt (1000 N) was 11th Street back then. 7th Avenue may have first been named Central Avenue.

Note the Salt River Valley Canal parallel to Van Buren Street...I wonder if it's still there under the asphalt?

Also note the declarations to the side, which you'll see a lot. Most of them surrender the alleys and public ROW to the city, except for the operations of the streetcar track on Washington St. The developers would run or contribute to the line and profit off it.

Phoenix has a lot of "streetcar suburbs" like this--Grand Avenue developed the same way even earlier. I would probably say the combination of the railroad industrialized the former agricultural homesteaders lots, and the closing of the streetcar line killed the residential appeal.

Blight logically followed.

[tempedude]

Ok I went back and studied the maps again closer this time after I had tonight's Suns game off my mind. Yes, I see now how the north/south streets are named, but yet if you look closely they are sub labeled avenues back in 1892 (and as they are named today). Very cool, I like looking at this type of stuff, I have been too busy lately with school and other things to slow down enough to look at this kind of history (maps/charts) closely. I used to do it all th time when I was a kid even in my home town (yep, I am a true nerd at heart). :yes:

But now the question is....by looking at the photo of the current state of the neighborhood...and it is a real disaster for sure(one of the worst areas in the city)...what do you do to improve the area to revitalize it? It looks so bad as if it is prudent just to raze it and start over, but I know that isn't the answer.

Ideas?

[combusean]

^ Run light rail down Washington Street--which is more or less guaranteed at this point.

[PHX31]

/\ Is it really? Washington St. in this area is more or less a neighborhood/residential street. Adams is the major westbound road in the vicinity. I couldn't imagine light rail down Washington, although a streetcar wouldn't be bad (not that that would ever happen).

Tempedude, I saw that the N/S roads were sublabeled their current numbered avenue names, but I would suspect they were written that way long after 1892. I think they were named "Murphy Ave" and "Reynolds Ave" for a while.

[JI5]

You can't just flatten a neighborhood - as bad as it looks, it is occupied.
The poor have to live somewhere. The question is - where do we want to put them?
These are complicated issues.

[DowntownDweller]

The poor have to live somewhere. The question is - where do we want to put them?.

Send them to Chandler.

[combusean]

/\ Is it really? Washington St. in this area is more or less a neighborhood/residential street. Adams is the major westbound road in the vicinity. I couldn't imagine light rail down Washington, although a streetcar wouldn't be bad (not that that would ever happen).

Tempedude, I saw that the N/S roads were sublabeled their current numbered avenue names, but I would suspect they were written that way long after 1892. I think they were named "Murphy Ave" and "Reynolds Ave" for a while.

Well, I don't know *that* much about the I-10 West alignment, tho Central City meets tonight and I can get an update.

I misread that this was the chunk of the central west city between 19th and 23rd--obviously the train should go through Washington to at least 19th Avenue, but perhaps the neighborhood could benefit from it going a bit further west before it finally hops on the I-10.

Then again, light rail down the center of I-10 barely makes sense if commuter rail is to come.

In researching the Central Avenue article, I couldn't find anything definitive on when the numbered streets were done. It was by the 1940's, but I couldn't find anything definitive like a council resolution.

[PHX31]

/\ Yeah, definitely get an update on the alignment (if they give one) and anything else that may be interesting.

Actually, after looking at some maps, Washington basically dead-ends (splits) at the Capitol, with traffic transferring to Adams... a line down Washington through the Capitol district, then over to Adams and eventually the I-10 seems optimal. I agree, though, that light rail down the center of I-10 doesn't make sense with the possibility of Commuter Rail.

[NIXPHX77]

based on what i have heard, if there is light rail to the west valley,
i think using I-10's unused median will be the choice. of course,
there are always reasons and variables, esp. when dealing w/ gov't money.
it's not an arbitrary choice.
check out the current airings on Phx ch 11 of the last city council meeting;
it may only air 1 or 2 more days.

[HooverDam]

based on what i have heard, if there is light rail to the west valley,
i think using I-10's unused median will be the choice. of course,
there are always reasons and variables, esp. when dealing w/ gov't money.
it's not an arbitrary choice.
check out the current airings on Phx ch 11 of the last city council meeting;
it may only air 1 or 2 more days.

I saw that on Ch 11 too, I think that'll be a huge failure. I'd much rather have bus that runs in a seperated lane going down the 10 and the 51. Mass Transit is a tough proposition in the valley and I think the only hope for light rail to ever work is for plenty of TOD to be built around stations, needless to say, if you run it down a highway, with minimal stops, that won't happen.

[NIXPHX77]

I agree, Hooverdam. i wrote in on my comment card that i thought
perhaps mcdowell or van buren or even thomas would be better for light rail
for the reasons you mentioned. keep I-10 for buses, carpool and BRT.
then use the UPRR near Buckeye road for commuter rail. that way it also spreads out the routes and rider options for convenience.

but, do you agree, it sounded like the I-10 median is the only option based on federal guidelines? (to clarify, that is from 27th ave and westward.)
i think they are looking to denver as a model. does anyone know if their line in the interstate median is successful for ridership and TOD?

eastward from 27th ave, things get more interesting. i am hoping that a light rail line runs down Jefferson (or Adams/Jefferson) and then perhaps juts down to Jackson st
to tie into Union Station and the JSED.

[HooverDam]

but, do you agree, it sounded like the I-10 median is the only option based on federal guidelines? (to clarify, that is from 27th ave and westward.)
i think they are looking to denver as a model. does anyone know if their line in the interstate median is successful for ridership and TOD?


Yes, that sounds like the situation. Apparently the Valley will be competing w/ lots of other cities for federal dollars, and unsurprisingly, the government has a stupid way of dolling out those dollars. They look at how fast the rail can move and things like that, so if its moving 55mph and making few stops, its more likely to get built.

I just don't get it though, so you'll have some rider ship during rush houre, and maybe for games, but never any other time. It seems like they're using light rail for a job commuter rail is more suited for.