View Full Version : Gage Park
DC83
Feb 4, 2008, 12:08 PM
Public to get a look at redesign plan of Gage Park's north side
Dana Brown
The Hamilton Spectator
(Feb 4, 2008)
The city will present its plan to redesign to the north side of Gage Park to the public this week.
An open meeting on Wednesday will also include information about the Lower East End Storm Drainage Study, which is examining how to deal with storm water in that end of the city.
The park area slated for development runs from Gage Avenue South, along Main Street East, to near the Hamilton Children's Museum. The section is not a block area and only a tail of land along Main Street comes down near the museum.
Four options were developed after a workshop with stakeholders. They were presented to the public in June 2006.
The Main Street component was consistent among all the options, said Steve Barnhart, a supervisor with the city's the open space development and park planning department.
The city is hoping to establish a main central hub for the park, revamp the pergola at the end of the formal garden and build a brick gateway at the corner of Gage and Main, among other things.
"That style of the brick gateway will set the tone for what we do at the south end of the park off Lawrence," Barnhart said.
"So we'll repeat that theme at the other end, which is also a main entry into the park."
The plan is not to affect the perennial gardens or the fountain.
Barnhart said he hopes the tender for the project will be done in the summer and that the entire development will be done by the time the 2009 winter season hits.
The rest of the plan for the park won't be finalized until a study regarding the central works yard in the park is completed, likely in April. The drainage study will also impact the overall plan.
Similar to the proposed park redevelopment, the drainage study also had the common theme of some sort of wet meadow in all of its options.
The idea is to provide long grass with cut paths that can act as water collector during major storms.
The meeting will be held Wednesday at Adelaide Hoodless Elementary School, 71 Maplewood Ave., from 6:30 to 8:30 p.m.
DC83
Feb 4, 2008, 12:13 PM
This is the section of Gage Park the article is referring to:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/DC_83/gage_park.jpg
BrianE
Feb 5, 2008, 3:39 PM
Yay! Finally some new from this project. I've been eagerly waiting for a decision for this park. I'm there walking my dog almost every night and I think its a fantastic public place.
I missed the first public meetings back in 06, ( I had just moved to the area in May 06) so I will definitley be going to this meeting.
Does anybody know if the idea of a Dog park was pitched at the june '06 meeting? I think it would be an amazing place for another Dog park like up at the SPCA.
SteelTown
Apr 12, 2008, 1:13 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/gageparkk.jpg
RePinion
Apr 12, 2008, 1:51 AM
I love Gage Park as a park but I tend to avoid it nowadays. It has a seedy reputation for good reason.
My sister was aggressively accosted there a few years ago by a couple of older men to such an extent that we had to get police involved.
I was also attacked two summers ago by a group of South Asian youth who tried to knock me off my bike in the south west end of the park (presumably with the intention of stealing my beautiful Lemond ... like I was going to let that happen!).
I only go there now with my mom and grandmother for the Mum show in the fall.
rousseau
Apr 12, 2008, 3:32 AM
I...(presumably with the intention of stealing my beautiful Lemond ... like I was going to let that happen!).
Off-topic: Whoa...Lemond? As in, a road bike? If so, how about starting a new topic somewhere about rides in and around Hamilton?
How much do you ride? What kind of componentry do you have on your Lemond?
the dude
Apr 12, 2008, 4:01 AM
I was also attacked two summers ago by a group of South Asian youth who tried to knock me off my bike in the south west end of the park (presumably with the intention of stealing my beautiful Lemond ... like I was going to let that happen!).
was it really necessary to mention their ethnicity? i guess it makes the incident seem more harrowing.
glad the city has decided to invest a little $ in the park. last time i was there it really needed a good scrubbing.
fastcarsfreedom
Apr 12, 2008, 5:43 AM
It was once, and should be, one of the city's jewels. My most recent impressions of it were that it had been neglected, disrespected by some of the people who use it, and sadly, a potential haven for criminal activity. Investing some money and care into the park would work wonders for the area--it's a beautiful park and a great set of lungs for the neighborhood.
RePinion
Apr 12, 2008, 6:10 AM
was it really necessary to mention their ethnicity? i guess it makes the incident seem more harrowing.
glad the city has decided to invest a little $ in the park. last time i was there it really needed a good scrubbing.
I just like to be descriptive, a slight literary streak I guess. I don't consider myself to be xenophobic or ethnically averse. My partner of 6 years is Jamaican of Sri Lankan and African descent. The people whom I'm used to seeing in my day-to-day life are certainly not all white ... if that was meant to be the implication (?).
DC83
Apr 12, 2008, 1:40 PM
I don't think I have ever seen South Asians in Gage Park ever!? Maybe for a picnic, but that's about it.
I worked in the Delta for (almost) 4 years and spent almost every lunch hour in the park (whether it be the afternoon lunch or nightime lunch... depending on my schedule). I have never once been accosted, approached or harassed here.
I also have a female friend who lives right down the street from it, and her and I walk thru the park on nice evenings. Never had any problems.
I'm sick of people thinking this park is dangerous or ghetto b/c they heard someone was jumped once a couple years ago, or b/c of it's neighbourhood. Spend as much time in the park as possible... then you'll be comfortable enough to manoever it's wonderful trails without worrying about that group of teens at the tree who are probably just smoking pot anyway.
This isn't East LA, this is Hamilton. Crime here is surprisingly low. So don't listen to CHCH/The Spec's neo-con propoganda! Don't fear Gage Park... it's not a scary place AT ALL: Night or Day!!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/gageparkk.jpg
Lookin' good!!! I wish the entry-way was a little more eye-catching tho! Maybe a Washington Square'esq type of monument:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/138/372294608_d675b36aae.jpg?v=0
from wallyg @ Flickr, http://flickr.com/photos/wallyg/372294608/
realcity
Apr 12, 2008, 1:43 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/gageparkk.jpg
This sucks.
What's there now is better. I like the brick/gazebo thing. Does the city want to tear it down and build this cruddy little brick wall fence so they don't have to repair a few of the beams???
raisethehammer
Apr 12, 2008, 1:47 PM
yea, this is pretty lame. I hate those digital screens too. back to the drawing board with this.
DC83
Apr 12, 2008, 2:06 PM
This sucks.
What's there now is better. I like the brick/gazebo thing. Does the city want to tear it down and build this cruddy little brick wall fence so they don't have to repair a few of the beams???
No, they're planning on restoring the wooden/brick gazebo structure. This is just for tne entry way. Currently there are a couple huge, cement planters and occasionally an event's sign. So imo, this design is better than what's currently there (mud & cement planters). But ya, the design is lame and needs a LOT more work!
realcity
Apr 12, 2008, 2:09 PM
Seriously guys when's the last time you spent any amount of time in Gage Park?
I visit there all the time with my children. We ride around the park, visit the two playgrounds, climb on the bandshell, feed the squirells. I never see any vagrants. I see weddings, picnics and people walking dogs. Gage Park is a gem. It should be surrounded with a wall of high rises like Central Park. The flower beds a kept well. The fountain is in rough shape tho, and the washrooms are actually open (sometimes). The entrance gazebo thing has a couple broken benches and broken beer bottles but overall it's in good shape. The rose garden came back last year. I can't believe the negative comments about the park. It's the same incorrect perceived reality that plagues Hamilton.
realcity
Apr 12, 2008, 2:17 PM
the city better put some 'bumps' on the paved circle area... god forbid a skateboarder might use it.
I'm glad to hear the City is keeping the gazebo. but this is so forgetable and unnoticable. It lacks any kind of imagination.
SteelTown
Apr 12, 2008, 2:20 PM
The entrance at Gage and Main isn't too bad, the old wooden street post kinda ruins it for me.
DC83
Apr 12, 2008, 2:37 PM
The Park could also benefit from improved lighting, especially at the Main/Gage entrance!
It's no wonder ppl think the park is dangerous... the lighting is so poor except around the fountain. I believe this is all part of the revamp plan tho:
- new/better lighting
- reno'd gazebo
- replazing rot iron fencing
- Main/Gage entryway
- possibility of a dog park on the N/E part of the park
SteelTown
Apr 12, 2008, 2:48 PM
LED lights for the fountain would be kick ass, especially with a mixture of colour.
fastcarsfreedom
Apr 12, 2008, 3:27 PM
First off, I don't think I said Gage Park was dangerous--and I certainly never said I was there frequently. What I said was that the last time I was there it looked neglected--the condition of the fountain--for starters--is an absolute disgrace. I don't have some agenda to push as far as crime goes--it's a black and white issue--tagging, vandalism, pot smoking--those are crimes.
Quote
without worrying about that group of teens at the tree who are probably just smoking pot anyway
That's great--if this is somehow acceptable, I'm pretty sure we've hit squarely on exactly what's wrong with our society.
DC83
Apr 12, 2008, 3:28 PM
LED lights for the fountain would be kick ass, especially with a mixture of colour.
Ya! Coming out of the Turtles' mouths!! hahaha
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2291/1856060673_8283606be0.jpg?v=0
Big Daddy 72 on Flickr.com, http://flickr.com/photos/14413615@N00/1856060673/
EDIT: Fastcars, I wasn't taking a shot at you... just pointing out the general perception of the park. It's the same general perception that people have of Downtown and Hamilton as a city. If more people actually spent time at these places, got to know these places then they'd become comfortable with these places. Once comfortable enough, they'll realize "Hey, maybe it's NOT so bad... why didn't I come here before!?"
How many times have we heard THAT come out of the mouths of our out-of-town visitors when we show them the REAL Hamilton!?
fastcarsfreedom
Apr 12, 2008, 4:39 PM
Nice shot of the turtle--I have loved that fountain since I was a kid--and I remember it's last "restoration" which I'm ballparking as having been in the 1980s--it could and should be an absolute showpiece in that park. The last time I was in those parts it appeared as though the fountain had been treated as a community pool/latrine. It's neglect/abuse is shameful.
You're right about perceptions--absolutely--the thing is, positive changes can occur in a short period of time relative to changing perceptions--so investment in the park is a must--ideas will catch up in time--remember that Festival season brings a lot of people into Gage who don't otherwise visit on a regular basis. With the concert shell, fountain, rose garden, greenhouses--Gage has the ability to be a showpiece as urban parks go--all with that great view of the escarpment.
RePinion
Apr 12, 2008, 11:46 PM
I don't think I have ever seen South Asians in Gage Park ever!? Maybe for a picnic, but that's about it.
I worked in the Delta for (almost) 4 years and spent almost every lunch hour in the park (whether it be the afternoon lunch or nightime lunch... depending on my schedule). I have never once been accosted, approached or harassed here.
I also have a female friend who lives right down the street from it, and her and I walk thru the park on nice evenings. Never had any problems
I'm sick of people thinking this park is dangerous or ghetto b/c they heard someone was jumped once a couple years ago, or b/c of it's neighbourhood. Spend as much time in the park as possible... then you'll be comfortable enough to manoever it's wonderful trails without worrying about that group of teens at the tree who are probably just smoking pot anyway.
This isn't East LA, this is Hamilton. Crime here is surprisingly low. So don't listen to CHCH/The Spec's neo-con propoganda! Don't fear Gage Park... it's not a scary place AT ALL: Night or Day!!
Lookin' good!!! I wish the entry-way was a little more eye-catching tho! Maybe a Washington Square'esq type of monument:
Hmmm ... I wonder where you've been hiding. East Hamilton has a sizeable and growing South Asian population, and (to generalize) they do tend to spend a lot of time in public parks, particularly Montgomery and to a slightly lesser extent Gage. Not that this is a relevant consideration at all - the only reason I can think that you would have mentioned your observation at all was to undermine the credibility of my post ... in which case I will say: Good day to you, sir.
No Hamilton is not overly crime-ridden, but it certainly is not crime free either. Gage isn't like Central Park in the 1970s, and I wasn't trying to give that impression at all. Nor was I trying to give cautionary tales of "roving bands of dangerous youth" or anything like that. I had a negative experience in the park. It wasn't anything epic or traumatizing. My sister had an unpleasant experience which was borderline traumatizing. It happens and could have happened anywhere. However, I do believe it was more likely to happen in Gage Park than, say, the park around my parents' house in Dundas.
Without meaning to give offence, I presume part of the fact that you are never accosted or approached in Hamilton has something to do with your age and/or appearance. I am hassled on an almost daily basis by people around my work downtown and so are my colleagues (to such an extent that we now know some of these people who harrass respectable-looking types almost by name). That being said, I am one of the depressingly small number of people in this city who actually has to wear a suit to work on most days, and that clearly is part of the problem. It certainly is more of a problem here in Hamilton, where the proportion of respectable-looking people to hobos (yes, I did just call them hobos) is much more out of whack than in a city like Toronto. Again, location is indeed a relevant consideration.
I like Hamilton because in general there isn't a lot of violent crime. There is quite a lot of theft, vandalism and petty stuff, however, which can be very annoying. Over the years I and members of my immediate family have been victims of a number of small crimes. Aside from the two acts which I mentioned above, I would catalogue them as follows:
- I was violently pushed off my bike in Parkdale Park when I was 11 years old by a bum (yes I did just call him a bum) who then proceeded to pull my hair. This WAS harrowing, particularly since it was completely unprovoked and I didn't see it coming.
- A different bike was stolen outside of the library entrance to Jackson Square, where it had been locked up.
- My father had two cars stolen out of our driveway in Dundas in the same year.
- My father had a lawn mower and some tools stolen out of our garage.
- My mother's car was broken into (windows smashed) in the parking lot of Chedoke Golf Course.
- My parents' front garden was trampled.
- My grandfather's car was broken into on a semi-regular basis parked outside of his house in the Durand.
- My grandfather's house was also broken into once that I know of (a laptop, some cash and jewellery were stolen).
That's all that I can think of that's happened in my lifetime. Not too bad, but not too great either. Hamilton does have crime, but it isn't really in-your-face like crime in Detroit or Baltimore (is reputed to be). Generally speaking, I would say that I felt safer walking alone at night on an empty street in Toronto when I lived there than in I do in Hamilton now, but that when I lived in London I felt more threatened (for whatever that's worth).
Again, part of the problem with Gage park is the proportional demographics. There are tonnes of scruffy people who hang out in London's Hyde Park or New York's Central, but even more respectable-looking people with their kids, jogging, cycling, (and in Hyde Park even riding horses) or just hanging out on benches or the lawn. It makes the place feel safer and more inviting to other respectable-looking people. For a long time Gage Park got a fair amount of bad press in the Hamilton media and I suppose it's never recovered in the eyes of the middle classes. The neighbourhood around it has gone downhill economically and there is little incentive for people to travel from other parts of town to use it.
Hmmm ... what else? Oh yes, the new gates look like shit.
markbarbera
Apr 13, 2008, 2:25 AM
Well, if the trampling of flowers is now to be adopted as an indicator of increasing criminal activity, then yes I guess Gage park could be described as a seedy, crime-ridden den.
Seriously, Gage Park a danger zone? Gimme a break. I have spent many great times here. Not once have I witnessed any type of criminal activity. Of course my visits are generally during daylight hours. At any rate the park does not see anything like the criminal activity seen at all hours in other major urban parks such as Allen Gardens in Toronto.
I have moved back here after living in Toronto for a decade, and I feel significantly safer here than in the big smoke. It is all down to your presonal perspective and prejudices, I suppose. I recall being highy intimidated by a bunch of white guys on Vespas that circled me in Toronto's Cedarvale Park one day... but that could be a case of repressed false-memory syndrome.
RePinion
Apr 13, 2008, 2:37 AM
Well, if the trampling of flowers is now to be adopted as an indicator of increasing criminal activity, then yes I guess Gage park could be described as a seedy, crime-ridden den.
Hmmmm ... that was kind of my whole point, that crime in Hamilton, while it certainly still occurs, tends to be on the rather trivial side - at least the type of crime that "normal" people are exposed to, at any rate. As a factor in Hamilton's overall liveablity, I would say it figures as a nuisance more than a threat.
hamiltonguy
Apr 13, 2008, 3:51 AM
Well, if the trampling of flowers is now to be adopted as an indicator of increasing criminal activity, then yes I guess Gage park could be described as a seedy, crime-ridden den.
Seriously, Gage Park a danger zone? Gimme a break. I have spent many great times here. Not once have I witnessed any type of criminal activity. Of course my visits are generally during daylight hours. At any rate the park does not see anything like the criminal activity seen at all hours in other major urban parks such as Allen Gardens in Toronto.
I have moved back here after living in Toronto for a decade, and I feel significantly safer here than in the big smoke. It is all down to your presonal perspective and prejudices, I suppose. I recall being highy intimidated by a bunch of white guys on Vespas that circled me in Toronto's Cedarvale Park one day... but that could be a case of repressed false-memory syndrome.
I'd stay away from the treed groves.
A couple of years ago I was participating in a clean up of Gage Park and every grove had many used condoms and needles.
Not that I think its unsafe, but there needs to be a officer or two who'd do some walk arounds at night.
SteelTown
Apr 13, 2008, 4:22 AM
Have you guys seen Mcqueston Park? Across from Limeridge Mall over the Linc? The city did a nice job with that park.
realcity
Apr 13, 2008, 3:55 PM
^ yes I was there, it sucks. They didn't plant enough trees. The city is against dense treed areas because they think 'skateborders' will hang out and smoke cigarettes stolen from their mom's purse in the cover of the trees. Best to keep the bored suburban teens in their 'great rooms' with the X-Box and msn.
It was not the work of skilled landscape architects like H.B. Dunington-Grubb of Gage Park. Any weekend crash-course in Frederick Law Olmsted's work and the designers would've built it from the perspective of scale and socializing.
I took my children there to bike ride (a change from Gage Park) and it was barren, the pathway was decent but not 'friendly', too spread out and you'll get heatstroke before you finish it. At every turn I felt like I was just here, boring essentially, lacking detail (because the detail might be vandalized by the bored teenagers). It's a poor job in designing a public space. It's like a public space for a public that still cherishes privacy over interacting with fellow citizens. It's a moonscape.
The Bayfront Park was well designed but McQueston was a huge dissappointment for me. Isn't this the park they refused a skatepark?
The police and city planners wouldn't want loitering happening, we might start congegating and perhaps even begin to hatch a plan about starting a trade union or an alternative political party. o my... better keep the serfs from too much social contact. get them back indoors and in front of the tv where we have control over their thoughts.
It's good for about 30 minutes but then the space makes you feel like you need to get the hell out. Not like Gage Park, where an afternoon picnic and kite flying in a public space feels comfortable.
SteelTown
Apr 13, 2008, 3:58 PM
I was talking more about the front entrance for McQueston, it's better than the Gage Park rendering plan.
DC83
Apr 13, 2008, 4:02 PM
^^ hahaha so funny, realcity!
Ya, they scrapped the skate park for McQueston and put it up at Turner (Rymal/Upp Wellington) instead.
I always thought that park looked naked, as well. Way too little trees. When they 1st built it, I was confident the trees would eventually grow into a thick, dense park like Gage... what's it been like 15 years now? They're still skinny, short trees.
My favourite thing about McQueston is the light posts at the entrance... they are replicas of the light posts on the T.B. McQueston High Level Bridge (whoa... quite the name). The entry way is ALSO a problem as it obviously caters more to cars than to passers-by/pedestrians.
The park CAN be saved tho... but wont happen for years still.
realcity
Apr 13, 2008, 4:08 PM
Interestingly public congregation has been a maniacal fear in N.A. For some reason we actually had to fight for a RIGHT to Assemble. As if this wasn't a human right, but only a civil right -- one that could be taken away. In Europe this is part of civic life. In N.A. our public space has been designed to discourage any kind of loitering, socializing and congregating. Even passing laws on both public and private space against "Loitering". 30 minutes or more and you must be up to no good, planning a bank robbery or 'staking out the place'. It's at the point now that we see 4 or 5 people doing just that in Gage Park and automatically suspect "They're up to something" with fear. In Europe a group would see 4 or 5 people talking and then join them.
The fear dates back to labour movements and fear of communist uprising.
hamiltonguy
Apr 13, 2008, 4:55 PM
Interestingly public congregation has been a maniacal fear in N.A. For some reason we actually had to fight for a RIGHT to Assemble. As if this wasn't a human right, but only a civil right -- one that could be taken away. In Europe this is part of civic life. In N.A. our public space has been designed to discourage any kind of loitering, socializing and congregating. Even passing laws on both public and private space against "Loitering". 30 minutes or more and you must be up to no good, planning a bank robbery or 'staking out the place'. It's at the point now that we see 4 or 5 people doing just that in Gage Park and automatically suspect "They're up to something" with fear. In Europe a group would see 4 or 5 people talking and then join them.
The fear dates back to labour movements and fear of communist uprising.
I think it also dates back to street gangs.
But its interesting, they make huge open spaces so nothing is hidden, but then they don't want you to stand around too long.
While I think we should be allowed to "loiter" on public property, I think Private Landowners have every right to manage their property (including no loitering rules) as they see fit.
raisethehammer
Apr 13, 2008, 6:09 PM
McQueston Park is a travesty, especially considering who they named it after.
If he was alive today he would grab a bulldozer and "fix" that mess himself.
RePinion
Apr 13, 2008, 7:51 PM
Interestingly public congregation has been a maniacal fear in N.A. For some reason we actually had to fight for a RIGHT to Assemble. As if this wasn't a human right, but only a civil right -- one that could be taken away. In Europe this is part of civic life. In N.A. our public space has been designed to discourage any kind of loitering, socializing and congregating. Even passing laws on both public and private space against "Loitering". 30 minutes or more and you must be up to no good, planning a bank robbery or 'staking out the place'. It's at the point now that we see 4 or 5 people doing just that in Gage Park and automatically suspect "They're up to something" with fear. In Europe a group would see 4 or 5 people talking and then join them.
The fear dates back to labour movements and fear of communist uprising.
You're right - in North America it does go back to establishment concerns over labour uprisings in the 19th and early 20th centuries. However, virtually every government in continental Europe - whether in France, Germany, Italy, or Spain - has at some point in its history tried to limit the right of the people to organize. So to say that it has been recognized as a "human right" as opposed to a "civil right" in those countries is not quite accurate (moreover, the legal philosophy of these countries has always been firmly positivist so perforce skeptical of naturalist/universalist concepts like human rights). However, English law has consistently been profoundly circumspect when it comes to rights of free assembly, which explains why the right has traditionally been a rather impoverished one in both Canada and the US (since both countries largely adopt the traditions and conventions of the English common law).
I would agree in general that North American (but also British) societies have always been much more timorous when it comes to the possibility of social disorder than have continental European societies. Anglo societies have always been much, much less communitarian; consequently their focus has usually been upon stability of social order and preservation of individual rights.
fastcarsfreedom
Apr 13, 2008, 8:02 PM
Crime is a reality--what I find interesting is that amongst many here there is nearly fanatical backlash to the overstating of crime in the inner-city. It seems no one wants to mention it--let alone talk about it. If there are kids smoking pot, syringes, condoms and people being pushed off bikes--that's crime--pretending it's not there, is insignificant or resorting to highlighting crimes outside the city doesn't address the problem.
The point is well-made that the "majority" of civillians are exposed to relatively little crime--in reality crime is a far more pervasive, frequent and common than most citizens realize. Society as a whole is, in my opinion, becoming increasingly permissive and desensitized to crime--regardless of it's severity. The police cannot, and will not, be everywhere at all times. Increased patrols do have a positive effect--but not nearly as much impact as a motivated community. If that park was in my neighborhood I would be seriously concerned about pot-smoking youths, discarded syringes and used biohazardous condoms--I'd be lobbying to have some money sunk into the concert shell and if I had to, I'd be scrubbing those damn tags off the fountain. It seems to me that's a far bigger issue than the aesthetic of a brick entryway.
Indeed, I grew up in the suburbs (or exurbs for that matter)--but my family's roots are in the east end. On the day of my graduation from 8th Grade, we drove from Greensville down to Gage--I actually remember the evening vividly. We stopped at the Delta-area DQ and drove to the park. It was a quiet, warm, humid June evening--and for the only time in my life I got up on the stage of the band shell in the deserted park...my seminal memory of Gage Park.
markbarbera
Apr 13, 2008, 11:40 PM
Crime is a reality--what I find interesting is that amongst many here there is nearly fanatical backlash to the overstating of crime in the inner-city. It seems no one wants to mention it--let alone talk about it. If there are kids smoking pot, syringes, condoms and people being pushed off bikes--that's crime--pretending it's not there, is insignificant or resorting to highlighting crimes outside the city doesn't address the problem.
You nailed my main point without even realizing it. Crime in Hamilton's inner city is overstated. As someone who lives in the inner city, I am tired of it constantly being painted with broad brushstrokes by those looking at it from the outside. It's not that we do not want it discussed, we want it kept in proper perspective. If your neighbourhood's crime level was being constantly exagerrated and overstated, would you not raise a voice so a more truthful representation be heard? Are you suggesting I simply let these exaggerations go unchallenged and allow the perception to continue to be perverted? For years this has been the case, to the point that those who have not even set foot downtown have this perception far removed from reality. Downtown has suffered greatly from the consequences of this perception.
As far as addressing the 'problems' of downtown, perhaps the solution is to have the police crack down on all these suburbanites driving downtown to score some dope or pick up a prostitute. After all, it can't be us po' folk in the inner city doing these deals - we can't possibly afford those big shiny cars cruising the back alleys...
HAMRetrofit
Apr 13, 2008, 11:49 PM
As far as I am concerned there is relatively no crime downtown Hamilton. I have a hard time taking people seriously when they speak of it as some type of crime haven. My typical reaction is usually a laugh followed by an oh yeah :rolleyes:.
realcity
Apr 14, 2008, 1:10 AM
I've never seen a syringe or glue bottle in Gage Park.
As far as designing public spaces: At least Europe still has the culture and civic spaces that are acceptable to social assembly and congregation.
My point was the city still continues to say "our tax base is becoming overwhelmingly burdened by residential" but then re-zones industrial lands to resindential -- as they scratch their heads to this problem of increasing residential taxes. And on the other hand they say "our city needs places for people to exercise, socialize and take part of civic life" essentially to give a shit about their built environment -- to have pride in the city they live in. Then the city builds public spaces that people won't enjoy being in, and avoids building outdoor recreation and amenities because of potential vandalism or groups of youths might congregate and scare the soccer moms living near the parks. Why are we afraid of 5 people standing around talking? If they're over 60 sitting in Centre Mall or Mountain Plaza Mall and have a European accent we're okay with it. But if they are teens, we think they're dealing dope and planning a bank robbery.
Strangley the most popular place to "tag" in Hamilton is along the Linc.
If this City gave as much attention as it does for Graffiti and Parking to zoning proper neighbourhoods we wouldn't have these problems.
Park illegal somewhere and you're fined in 10 minutes. Have spray paint on your building and you better have it removed in 10 days. But happy motoring 30 km over the speed limit and feel free to put a drive thru anywhere, and put up a mobile sign for as long as you want, and idle your car as long as you want, and use pesticides however you please.
Millstone
Apr 14, 2008, 1:21 AM
As far as I am concerned there is relatively no crime downtown Hamilton. I have a hard time taking people seriously when they speak of it as some type of crime haven. My typical reaction is usually a laugh followed by an oh yeah :rolleyes:.
I'm pretty sure I could take a walk around the block and find some sketchiness right now. I refuse to use the north exit of this building (facing Wilson) because of all the stupidity that happens around there. I'm sure if the building next to us and the parking lot were "repurposed" this may change, but c'est la vie.
Did you hear about all the mugging that happened yesterday?
fastcarsfreedom
Apr 14, 2008, 3:18 AM
It's amazing--I can't even initiate a discussion here without being turned into an urban/suburban debate. Saying the solution is to crack down on "suburbanites" who drive into the city to buy drugs makes as much as sense as cracking down on "those people from the city" who are committing property crimes in the suburbs. While you're pleading for people to let go of their biases toward the city you might want to take a moment or two to think about your own.
markbarbera--just as there is exists a 'perception' that the inner-city is addled with crime (it isn't) there is also a 'perception' amongst some posters that it is grossly overstated--in fact, it is neither. The point I was making was that in light of that there is hysterical phobia amongst people trying to advance the cause of downtown of discussing crime. Any mention of it sets off howls about how the Spectator and CHCH and the HPS overstate crime, and how there is crime in the suburbs--crime exists in the city--since you are passionate about bringing the core back to life, you might want to deal with the crime that's there and let the suburbs deal with what they have to deal with (you don't care what happens to people 'out there' anyway...so let it go.)
The vast majority of crime--as it exists--both urban and suburban (and rural for that matter)--actually doesn't impact the majority of citizens on a day-to-day basis. However, this 'gross overstatement' of inner-city crime is a fallacy--very little crime actually goes reported in the media--and it's pervasive everywhere--downtown, uptown and out-of-town.
markbarbera
Apr 14, 2008, 3:07 PM
Saying the solution is to crack down on "suburbanites" who drive into the city to buy drugs makes as much as sense as cracking down on "those people from the city" who are committing property crimes in the suburbs. While you're pleading for people to let go of their biases toward the city you might want to take a moment or two to think about your own.
Despite my excessive use of sarcasm in my previous post, my exercise in irony was obviously lost on you. The statement was designed to demonstrate the kind of generalizations urban Hamiltonians have to put up with on a day-to-day basis, only applying it to suburbanites. I find it interesting to note the prompt backlash from the overstating of crime perpetrated by suburbanites from those trying to advance the cause of suburbia...
Goldfinger
Apr 14, 2008, 4:00 PM
Despite my excessive use of sarcasm in my previous post, my exercise in irony was obviously lost on you. The statement was designed to demonstrate the kind of generalizations urban Hamiltonians have to put up with on a day-to-day basis, only applying it to suburbanites. I find it interesting to note the prompt backlash from the overstating of crime perpetrated by suburbanites from those trying to advance the cause of suburbia...
That's the dumbest excuse I've read for posting nonsense like that.
raisethehammer
Apr 14, 2008, 4:13 PM
You nailed my main point without even realizing it. Crime in Hamilton's inner city is overstated. As someone who lives in the inner city, I am tired of it constantly being painted with broad brushstrokes by those looking at it from the outside. It's not that we do not want it discussed, we want it kept in proper perspective. If your neighbourhood's crime level was being constantly exagerrated and overstated, would you not raise a voice so a more truthful representation be heard? Are you suggesting I simply let these exaggerations go unchallenged and allow the perception to continue to be perverted? For years this has been the case, to the point that those who have not even set foot downtown have this perception far removed from reality. Downtown has suffered greatly from the consequences of this perception.
As far as addressing the 'problems' of downtown, perhaps the solution is to have the police crack down on all these suburbanites driving downtown to score some dope or pick up a prostitute. After all, it can't be us po' folk in the inner city doing these deals - we can't possibly afford those big shiny cars cruising the back alleys...
yep, I'm with ya. People who never venture downtown always try to act like the experts on downtown crime, lifestyle, traffic ideas etc.....
I wish they would just shut-up and stay at Walmart for the extra 30 minutes a day.
fastcarsfreedom
Apr 14, 2008, 5:26 PM
Interesting respsonses. I'm actually not here trying to "advance" the cause of suburbia at all. I think the benefits of both the city and suburbs stand on their own. Like yourselves, I enjoy my lifestyle and my community and don't feel it needs boosting. Frankly speaking, the responses I've read here regarding crime are nothing short of spin, and completely ignore the point I was trying to make.
Once again, everything goes back to the underlying theme here--which is that all people who do not live in the urban environ be damned. Considering how destructive provincial thinking has been over the past few decades, it alarms and surprises me that progressive thinkers such as yourselves would embrace it so readily.
raisethehammer
Apr 14, 2008, 6:16 PM
fastcars, do us all a favour and quit reading your own agenda into everything. All I've stated here is agreement that downtown crime is WAY overhyped by suburban folks. End of story.
RePinion
Apr 14, 2008, 9:38 PM
Interesting respsonses. I'm actually not here trying to "advance" the cause of suburbia at all. I think the benefits of both the city and suburbs stand on their own. Like yourselves, I enjoy my lifestyle and my community and don't feel it needs boosting. Frankly speaking, the responses I've read here regarding crime are nothing short of spin, and completely ignore the point I was trying to make.
Once again, everything goes back to the underlying theme here--which is that all people who do not live in the urban environ be damned. Considering how destructive provincial thinking has been over the past few decades, it alarms and surprises me that progressive thinkers such as yourselves would embrace it so readily.
This shouldn't be surprising.
Rare indeed is the truly "progressive thinker". In general, people's tribal, territorial, philosophical, and (nowadays) lifestyle allegiances prevail over all else. As popular ethical notions shift, those whose allegiances happen to be in line with the shift invariably take the opportunity to proclaim themselves "progressives", and to decry those whose allegiances run counter to it as "regressives" and "reactionaries". This is certainly the case with the urban/suburban divide as we see it play out in this forum.
markbarbera illustrates this point well when he writes: "As someone who lives in the inner city, I am tired of it constantly being painted with broad brushstrokes by those looking at it from the outside. It's not that we do not want it discussed, we want it kept in proper perspective. If your neighbourhood's crime level was being constantly exagerrated and overstated, would you not raise a voice so a more truthful representation be heard? Are you suggesting I simply let these exaggerations go unchallenged and allow the perception to continue to be perverted?"
The above is an expression of allegiance more than anything else. While markbarbera later attempts to legitimize this remark by noting that the negative perception (re crime in the inner city) is ultimately detrimental to the downtown, the us-them dichotomy is clearly what animates the response.
RTH falls prey to the same prejudice when he writes "yep, I'm with ya. People who never venture downtown always try to act like the experts on downtown crime, lifestyle, traffic ideas etc..... I wish they would just shut-up and stay at Walmart for the extra 30 minutes a day."
The implication here is that only those who live downtown are fit to comment on its crime, lifestyle, traffic, etc.. Although there is some merit to this remark on its face, the ultimate attempt here is to deny the validity of a point of view simply on the basis of the status of its maker (i.e. urbanite/suburanite). This is just elitism of another stripe. Moreover, there is an element of rank hypocrisy here. RTH chides suburbanites for perpetuating stereotypes relating to the inner city, while at the same time perpetuating one of his own relating to the suburbs (i.e. that all suburbanites habitually shop at big box stores). This, perhaps more than anything else, betrays the fact that his thinking is predicated more on the basis of allegiance to a particular lifestyle identity (and hostility towards different allegiances seen to be in competition with this lifestyle identity) than on any real notion of progressiveness (or what is ultimately best for this city).
There is nothing wrong with identity allegiance per se (as it is such an irresistible human predisposition), but progressive thinking almost by definition resists the sort of exclusivity and chauvinism which allegiance invariably entails. Progressive thinkers are the ones who transcend their allegiances to see a particular issue from the perspective of every interested party, while at the same time being cognizant of the best ultimate outcome. Thus Gandhi could see the India question from both the Indian/British perspective and, later, the Hindu/Muslim one, while Mandela could see Apartheid from both white and black points of view. As I say, such progressive thinking is very rare, and I don't expect we'll see much of it on this forum.
Goldfinger
Apr 14, 2008, 9:43 PM
^ Well said.
raisethehammer
Apr 14, 2008, 9:55 PM
This shouldn't be surprising.
Rare indeed is the truly "progressive thinker". In general, people's tribal, territorial, philosophical, and (nowadays) lifestyle allegiances prevail over all else. As popular ethical notions shift, those whose allegiances happen to be in line with the shift invariably take the opportunity to proclaim themselves "progressives", and to decry those whose allegiances run counter to it as "regressives" and "reactionaries". This is certainly the case with the urban/suburban divide as we see it play out in this forum.
markbarbera illustrates this point well when he writes: "As someone who lives in the inner city, I am tired of it constantly being painted with broad brushstrokes by those looking at it from the outside. It's not that we do not want it discussed, we want it kept in proper perspective. If your neighbourhood's crime level was being constantly exagerrated and overstated, would you not raise a voice so a more truthful representation be heard? Are you suggesting I simply let these exaggerations go unchallenged and allow the perception to continue to be perverted?"
The above is an expression of allegiance more than anything else. While markbarbera later attempts to legitimize this remark by noting that the negative perception (re crime in the inner city) is ultimately detrimental to the downtown, the us-them dichotomy is clearly what animates the response.
RTH falls prey to the same prejudice when he writes "yep, I'm with ya. People who never venture downtown always try to act like the experts on downtown crime, lifestyle, traffic ideas etc..... I wish they would just shut-up and stay at Walmart for the extra 30 minutes a day."
The implication here is that only those who live downtown are fit to comment on its crime, lifestyle, traffic, etc.. Although there is some merit to this remark on its face, the ultimate attempt here is to deny the validity of a point of view simply on the basis of the status of its maker (i.e. urbanite/suburanite). This is just elitism of another stripe. Moreover, there is an element of rank hypocrisy here. RTH chides suburbanites for perpetuating stereotypes relating to the inner city, while at the same time perpetuating one of his own relating to the suburbs (i.e. that all suburbanites habitually shop at big box stores). This, perhaps more than anything else, betrays the fact that his thinking is predicated more on the basis of allegiance to a particular lifestyle identity (and hostility towards different allegiances seen to be in competition with this lifestyle identity) than on any real notion of progressiveness (or what is ultimately best for this city).
There is nothing wrong with identity allegiance per se (as it is such an irresistible human predisposition), but progressive thinking almost by definition resists the sort of exclusivity and chauvinism which allegiance invariably entails. Progressive thinkers are the ones who transcend their allegiances to see a particular issue from the perspective of every interested party, while at the same time being cognizant of the best ultimate outcome. Thus Gandhi could see the India question from both the Indian/British perspective and, later, the Hindu/Muslim one, while Mandela could see Apartheid from both white and black points of view. As I say, such progressive thinking is very rare, and I don't expect we'll see much of it on this forum.
as fabulous as this speech is, you (like others here) are reading way too much into posts.
Let's ask CHML to host a call-in show about what traffic calming measures should be implemented on Lynbrook Dr on the west mountain.
I can promise you this - I won't call in and I won't care what decision the local residents there come up with. It's their street, their hood and it's fine by me.
Nothing 'elitist' about it. People who NEVER come to downtown Hamilton shouldn't be making comments or suggestions about everyday life downtown.
As I've said already, they should shut-up.
I know I will when Lynbrook Dr is up for discussion.
JT Jacobs
Apr 14, 2008, 10:00 PM
Excellent analysis, RePinion, and elegantly expressed, too.
One addition to the general problem with Internet forums is that they are inevitably occupied by a small group of insiders who tend to dominate discussions overtly or, more rarely, with subtlety, and who, generally speaking, espouse a conventional wisdom that tends to become unconsidered, codified law after a time. Those who offer a differing--even dissenting view--are typically ostracized.
The ultimate result? New contributors become discouraged by the insiderism, and usually don't last long, which, for such a forum as this, means that the new and fresh ideas tend to be recycled stale ones.
Perhaps a general respect should be offered to all contributions regardless how much we may disagree with them.
markbarbera
Apr 15, 2008, 1:58 AM
I must giive credit to RePinion for the amount of time and effort he put in his earlier post. His vocabulary and verbose prosaic style is enough to make even the venerable Conrad Black blush. It is unfortunate that so much energy went into arguing an inarguable point.
RePinion betrays his own personal bias throughout his flowery diatribe. By using the third person narrative, he attempts to place himself above the forum participants he is critiquing. He is careful when selecting forumer's comments as examples of what he calls a prejudice of 'us/them dichotomy' to single out those who speak in defence of the inner city. Yet he chooses to ignore compelling examples of those who argue with equally fanatical bias towards the suburban lifestyle. For example, labelling the criticism of the proposal to rezone industrial land for big-box development as "Walmart-bashing" is at least as powerful an example of "lifestyle identity allegiance". RePinion's pointed selectiveness in example citation hobbles his arguement and diminishes the credibility of his thesis. Indeed, it exposes his own bias and lack of objectivity on the subject.
I will quite easily admit my pride and support for my neighbourhood without any shame or guilt. Nor will I veil it in heavily worded prose. When my neighbourhood is being unfairly represented in this forum, I will not let that misrepresentation go unchallenged.
raisethehammer
Apr 15, 2008, 2:08 AM
yep, I'm with ya. :D
fastcarsfreedom
Apr 15, 2008, 6:09 AM
I have biases, just like everyone else--but I have never come here to push an agenda. End of story.
What amazes and confounds me is how posters here would choose to be dismissive of a poster like RePinion--who has brought an entirely new perspective to this site. He and I have disagreed completely in the past--yet never once has it become polarizing or uncivil. Nonetheless, no matter how much time or effort is put into a post--it's dismissed merely because it doesn't fit the very narrow definition of what's acceptable here and what is not.
Since the question I posed earlier in the thread have been ignored--let me try a different approach. From my perspective--downtown has a unique role to play in terms of shaping the city's identity--acting as a cultural and artistic hub, and well as the centre of commerce. Is it that--a single, defining area that is (potentially) shared by all, or, is it a neighborhood that is viewed with exclusivity by it's residents who don't feel municipal or regional input is even remotely important, let alone welcome? That's a serious question--and I look forward to the answer.
markbarbera
Apr 15, 2008, 9:56 AM
fastcarsfreedom, that is a very good question that is sure to draw plenty of discussion. Having said that, it really is beyond the scope of this thread, which is supposed to be about the restoration of Gage Park. I have heard from forumers pleading to keep these threads on topic, and it is really only fair that we all respect the scope of the individual thread and either take wider ranging discussions to more appropriate threads in SSP Hamilton, or start up a new thread in either the "Business Politics and the Economy" or "General Discussions" sections. When we do not, the topic is hijacked and any valuable discussion on that topic is lost in pages of diatribes and rebuttals. This does not add to the quality of this thread, rather it diminishes its value.
Unfortunately, discussions in these threads frequently get hijacked and sidetracked by those with various ulterior motives. Often it happens innocently, sometimes intentionally by those solely intent on disrupting discussion (lovingly referred to as trolls), and occassionally it is done simply to satisfy personal egos.
To those forumers who have been discouraged by these digressons (Steeltown, JT Jacobs), I apologize and will make a renewed effort not to fall into the honeypot of discussion diversion, and I hope others will follow suit.
raisethehammer
Apr 15, 2008, 1:13 PM
FYI...I think Repinion is great...a fab addition to the forum.
Mind you, I don't think he/she ever questioned that, but since fastcars felt the need to centre him/her out, I want to state my opinion.
realcity
Apr 15, 2008, 2:47 PM
i agree.... well said RePinion. I like your input into this forum. Like MarkB I think you're a great writer, I also think Mr. Black is a great writer. Doesn't a 'diatribe' have to be spoken? I could be wrong. I got into that with someone else regarding an email... I'm against writers opting for the most intense word to describe something that is only a moderate version. "Diatribe" is getting overused for things that are a moderate statement of opinion.
Eg. Big, Bigger, Biggest
If something is big or bigger then say so, don't claim it to be the biggest if it's not. A diatribe has to be most hateful, vengeful, 'balling-out" someone could possibly make. This is a current problem in the literary world today. sorry for off topic blurb.
Regarding downtown vs. suburbs
I don't live downtown, but I still claim the downtown as my own. I can be just as concerned about it as downtown residents. Why? Because it is the core of my city.
fastcarsfreedom
Apr 15, 2008, 2:55 PM
My posts actually have been about Gage Park--at least in part--but I got no feedback whatsoever on anything I said about the park or any efforts to restore it. Any off-topic "drift" was unintentional and organic in nature--I mentioned this in a reply a few days ago. Although I am a comformist in most areas of my life--I actually believe when we drift off-topic naturally that it's a positive thing--but anyway, that's a discussion for another time and place.
It is fair to question whether or not others (realcity added his name to this list) can be "just as concerned" about downtown as those whole live there. According to RTH, if you don't live downtown you should "shut up" about it. My feelings/comments/wishes about Gage Park are available in my previous posts.
I, Sinclair
Apr 15, 2008, 3:12 PM
You people are nuts.
From admittedly anecdotal evidence, I have been subjected to more nusiance behaviour and vandalism in my old neighbourhood just east of Gage Park than in the many years I lived in dodgy neigbourhoods in Toronto. The only comparison I can make is Cabbagetown, where minor property crime was a big problem.
Even in my new neighbourhood south of the HAAA, I experience what I consider to be a high level of nusiance crimes (broken car mirrors, cars broken into for change, broken bottles in the alley).
I have not lived everywhere, but in my experience nusiance crimes are higher in Hamilton than the other downtown districts I have lived in. I have no idea how to address it, but pretending I don't have this experience isn't going to make Hamilton any better.
As to the safety of Gage Park, when I lived beside it, I jogged every other night thru that park, most of the time after 10pm. I never had any problems, but I am 6'2 and north of 200lbs, so I probably am not a good example. I also saw at least one patrol car in the south lot every run.
But shit happens everywhere, and the poorer neighbourhoods in Hamilton have a lot more shit. To deny that people feel unsafe in Gage park, or to intimate that those that do are scared for no good reason, or worse, working a political agenda, is not particularly progressive, or helpful.
Oh, that entrance design is crap, in my opinion, but would be better than the mud and bushes that are there now.
Mack297
Apr 15, 2008, 3:14 PM
Well ... Hi! I'm a newbie ... I go by Mack, always have .. I've been a Hamiltonian all my 64 years .. give or take a few years here and there for youthful adventures.
I'm a cab driver ...can't 'not work', have to keep busy and I have had a cab licence since the 60's... work nights and spend most of my time in 'crack central' .. that area just to the east of 'downtown' .. I am also a retired 'civil servant'.
Amazing place, Hammerton, when the street lights come on.
Born and raised in the east end, still live here .. just north of Gage Park.
OK .. that out of the way, I want to say that I shall sit back for a while and see if I can catch a wave ... some good topics and lively discusssions in here, from what I have read thus far.
So ... if you check my 'avatar' and if some evening you see that face looking back at you in the rear view mirror ... "You are getting great taxi!".
So anyway, as I said, I shall sit back and wait for a good wave ... sounds better than 'sit back and lurk'.
Mack
beanmedic
Apr 15, 2008, 3:17 PM
It all comes down to the stakeholders.
I don't live downtown, nor have I ever lived there. As a potential future resident of downtown, and a frequent visitor, I believe my opinion counts. The outcome of any decision (e.g. traffic calming, LRT, BRT) will have an impact on me. I am a stakeholder. The same would be true of any individual who stands to gain or lose services or money based on the outcome of any decision that is made.
The 'us vs. them' is not downtown residents vs. non-residents. It is stakeholders vs. interested parties.
That's why these radio call-in shows are so frustrating. I don't want to hear the opinions of people who find it unacceptable to have an extra minute or two added to their trip through downtown in the unlikely event they decide to travel there at all.
I'm happy to debate all sorts of opinions and proposals with fellow stakeholders - but only stakeholders. Fortunately, it seems that most stakeholders are on the same page. Unfortunately, it seems that the Hamilton media continues to allow interested non-stakeholders to drown us out.
(blah, blah, blah.....gage park...blah, blah.)
realcity
Apr 15, 2008, 3:27 PM
Hi Mack welcome to the board.
Millstone
Apr 15, 2008, 3:55 PM
hi Mack, you have a lot of reading to do, there's a lot of discussion here!
realcity
Apr 15, 2008, 10:30 PM
i was grubbing out today in Gage Park. i noticed sand-blasting on the gazebo near Gage and Main. removing all the TWO tags, at least the City is showing interest in the structure. I like that structure... I think an entrance facing the stopped vehicles at Gage is good idea, but just think it could be better then the render. Something more grand and historical, ANNOUNCING Gage Park as a destination. I don't think many cities have urban parks this size. I hope some money goes into the fountain, at least it still operates...
also saw lots of City crews cleaning up the Park. It is well used, and cheap entertainment, we went into the Greenhouse FOR FREE. Burlington would charge admission to something like this, I'm glad we have it, It's part of the little things that make Hamilton great. Once again, I didn't see any 'undesirables', just picnics, families, children, cyclists, walkers, dogs. My favourite "you know you're in Hamilton when..... you see a ten-speed cyclist steering with one hand while holding a double-double in the other".
raisethehammer
Apr 15, 2008, 10:41 PM
You people are nuts.
From admittedly anecdotal evidence, I have been subjected to more nusiance behaviour and vandalism in my old neighbourhood just east of Gage Park than in the many years I lived in dodgy neigbourhoods in Toronto. The only comparison I can make is Cabbagetown, where minor property crime was a big problem.
Even in my new neighbourhood south of the HAAA, I experience what I consider to be a high level of nusiance crimes (broken car mirrors, cars broken into for change, broken bottles in the alley).
I have not lived everywhere, but in my experience nusiance crimes are higher in Hamilton than the other downtown districts I have lived in. I have no idea how to address it, but pretending I don't have this experience isn't going to make Hamilton any better.
As to the safety of Gage Park, when I lived beside it, I jogged every other night thru that park, most of the time after 10pm. I never had any problems, but I am 6'2 and north of 200lbs, so I probably am not a good example. I also saw at least one patrol car in the south lot every run.
But shit happens everywhere, and the poorer neighbourhoods in Hamilton have a lot more shit. To deny that people feel unsafe in Gage park, or to intimate that those that do are scared for no good reason, or worse, working a political agenda, is not particularly progressive, or helpful.
Oh, that entrance design is crap, in my opinion, but would be better than the mud and bushes that are there now.
this is interesting to hear of your experiences.
you live SOUTH of HAAA and still put up with those nuisance crimes eh?? I was under the impression that not much happened down there.
I've never seen or heard of anything of the sort in the 5+ years of living in Strathcona.
Although I did catch a young guy in my backyard once...nothing happened though. He was trying to steal something, but took off.
I, Sinclair
Apr 15, 2008, 11:03 PM
My wife's car has her passenger side mirror broken right now, some punks went the entire length of the street. My car, which I park in the alley, has been broken into so many times that I now carry the ownership and insurance in my wallet, because my glovebox would get rifled thru and all the paperwork thrown on the ground.
These are all nuisance crimes. I don't feel unsafe, I don't worry about the safety of my family, but it is definitely a quality of life issue.
Sadly, the probable root cause is the astounding level of poverty in the lower city. While refreshing park entrances and slowing down side streets undoubtedly are good for residents, I don't feel that residential development and urban improvements are enough to truly turn around some of these neighbourhoods.
Living just east of Gage was heartbreaking. There were children on my street that had almost nothing, and we would make any excuse to feed them a nutritious meal whenever they were playing with my kid.
At any rate, Gage park is absolutely a gem in the east end, and I hope the city finds more money to complete some of the other maintenance and improvement items that absolutely need to be done. That fountain could be spectacular if taken care of.
fastcarsfreedom
Apr 16, 2008, 12:12 AM
Agreed I, Sinclair on the point that it's a quality of life issue. Crime is a pervasive and worsening problem--all crimes--and society has become desensitized to an extent--regardless of neighborhood or environ. Property crimes are crimes--plain and simple. As you stated--and as has been discussed here at length--the rebirth of the core will, to an extent reverse the growth in the idigent population in that immediate area--but there are certain neighborhoods where the problem is only going to worsen. Keeping on point with this discussion--investment in Gage Park can and should spur an increase in property values and affluence in the streets which surround it--which are filled with beautiful, solidly built homes on streets lined with trees. The Greenhouse at Gage is a gem--and I've loved the tropical section since I was a kid--can still smell the humid air in there--and how great it would feel going in there on a dark November evening for the Mum Show (usually right after a 'brisk' visit down to Hutch's at the Beach). My dad's family is from the Rosedale area--not too far from Gage, and for many years my Grandparents lived just off Lawrence near Parkdale...great neighborhood.
Goldfinger
Apr 16, 2008, 12:47 AM
Does anyone know of any neighborhoods in Hamilton that have turned around? I have seen a few great ones go downhill, but never a turnaround. As long as there's cheap abundant housing and decent social services here, the poverty will continue flowing in from elsewhere.
flar
Apr 16, 2008, 1:14 AM
Stinson is turning around right now, I noticed a huge difference in the year and a half between phototours of the place. Lots of renos. Kirkendall and Locke has obviously seen a turnaround over the past decade. In the book "Up and Down Locke St" by Bill Manson there is a graph showing the decline in the number of businesses there from the 50's to 80's and then a sharp surge in the 90's. The James North area is also seeing some improvements, more and more houses getting cleaned up. Corktown is another area getting fixed up, check the residential on Augusta St for example. Also Ottawa St. was like the ghetto when I first saw it, now it has plenty of shoppers and shopping. I've only lived here since 2002, but I've explored nearly every street in the lower city and the improvements are quite impressive. A long way to go for some areas, but even the Keith neighbourhood is getting some renos.
RePinion
Apr 16, 2008, 2:17 AM
I must giive credit to RePinion for the amount of time and effort he put in his earlier post. His vocabulary and verbose prosaic style is enough to make even the venerable Conrad Black blush. It is unfortunate that so much energy went into arguing an inarguable point.
RePinion betrays his own personal bias throughout his flowery diatribe. By using the third person narrative, he attempts to place himself above the forum participants he is critiquing. He is careful when selecting forumer's comments as examples of what he calls a prejudice of 'us/them dichotomy' to single out those who speak in defence of the inner city. Yet he chooses to ignore compelling examples of those who argue with equally fanatical bias towards the suburban lifestyle. For example, labelling the criticism of the proposal to rezone industrial land for big-box development as "Walmart-bashing" is at least as powerful an example of "lifestyle identity allegiance". RePinion's pointed selectiveness in example citation hobbles his arguement and diminishes the credibility of his thesis. Indeed, it exposes his own bias and lack of objectivity on the subject.
I will quite easily admit my pride and support for my neighbourhood without any shame or guilt. Nor will I veil it in heavily worded prose. When my neighbourhood is being unfairly represented in this forum, I will not let that misrepresentation go unchallenged.
Wow. I'm honestly quite shocked to see the responses (both positive and negative) which my critique elicited. I can't say I'm disappointed though ...
My response was to fastcarsfreedom's complaint about the lack of progressive thinking on this board. I certainly did not target any users' posts out of personal spite or animus. I simply think the posts I chose best illustrated the point I was trying to make. I think both markbarbera and RTH make valuable contributions to the board. I was not trying to invalidate their presence here at all, merely trying to show the inherent bias which I detected in those particular posts.
That being said, I think markbarbera's response to me was clearly motivated out of personal animus. No worries. His analysis is extremely shallow and, all in all, really doesn't make a lot of sense, so I'm not much offended by it. I certainly have never promoted suburban interests over downtown ones and I have no interest in maintaining the suburban lifestyle, which I personally believe to be unsustainable and anti-social (no offence to those who love it). If someone had made grossly biased statements promoting suburbia in this thread, I might very well have called them out on that too. However, the statements which struck me as betraying an egregiously one-sided view on the matter were all from the other perspective - in fact, on this board, they are consistently from that perspective. Despite my own personal convictions, I dislike whenever any discussion is unduly dominated by one particular agenda, which seems to be the case here.
On a side note, I hope you don't all think I'm spending hours writing these posts. Although I try to be thoughtful as much as possible, I am just naturally verbose (both a gift and a curse). Often I wish my posts were better thought out than they actually are ...
Sorry I wasn't on earlier to take part in the obviously lively discussion.
fastcarsfreedom
Apr 16, 2008, 4:46 AM
Another excellent (and well-thought) response RePinion. I actually dislike re-reading my own posts because I'm overly critical of them--I write as I think--in a strictly linear fashion--so my posts sound like I'm sitting in a bar somewhere with a cheek full of Beech Nut. I couldn't agree more on the "agenda" point--and believe me taking any sort of "opposing" point is treacherous. Though I personally prefer the suburban lifestyle--I too dislike anything that's egregiously one-sided or dominated by group-think. I love the core--I just don't want to go to sleep there.
Either way, in response to neighborhoods "turning around"--that's an interesting question. I suppose it depends on the definition--the Bayfront Park/Pier IV area has certainly "changed"--that is it has slowly evolved from a strictly working class neighborhood--to one which is becoming increasingly filled with new builds and renos that are of an entirely different scale than what existed previously. As far as areas that have gone into a steep decline--I'm not sure I've seen any go 180 degrees to thriving. As commercial sectors go, Barton is still the big fall. The residential neighborhoods that have declined in the lower city are another issue--off the top of my head I can't think of many/any that have "recovered"...keeping in mind much of the residential in the extreme north end industrial areas has simply disappeared.
DC83
Sep 22, 2008, 9:07 PM
Gage Park Family Movie Nights
I saw an ad for this while I was on the bus, but unfortunately missed the details.
Does anyone know anymore info on this?
BrianE
Sep 22, 2008, 10:58 PM
Movie Night September 25th. Starts "when the sun goes down". Family friendly, the signs didn't mention what the movies would be but they will no doubt be safe for all ages.
raisethehammer
Sep 23, 2008, 1:10 AM
sounds great. hope the weather is good.
comadriver
Nov 13, 2008, 8:36 PM
Living just east of Gage was heartbreaking. There were children on my street that had almost nothing, and we would make any excuse to feed them a nutritious meal whenever they were playing with my kid.
I don't mean to dwell on this old thread, but WOW! When we were shopping for a house just east of Gage (Rothsay, Kensington, Rosslyn), we haven't seen this type of poverty at all. Am I missing something? The kids chasing the ice cream truck were well-dressed and appeared to be well-fed and in good health. There were decent cars parked in most driveways and the people we talked to were generally upbeat and articulate. We also spoke to some folks at the Rosedale tennis club, who all had good things to say about the immediate neighbourhood. Sinclair, your perspective got me very confused, given that we did go ahead and buy a house in the area...
raisethehammer
Nov 13, 2008, 8:51 PM
Sinclair was probably up closer to Barton area, east of Gage.
geoff's two cents
Nov 13, 2008, 9:47 PM
Indeed. We have good friends who live near Gage, and I was pleasantly surprised by the neighborhood. To be sure, it lacks many of the amenities we enjoyed in the Durand area (and it's a shame there isn't much going on directly adjacent to the park on Main), but it still had a lot of well-kept houses, trees lining the streets, etc. So I was told, however, there's an excellent second-hand bookstore in the area that I never did get a chance to check out. Hopefully I'll be back to the city and will have time kick around in that part of town.
LikeHamilton
Nov 13, 2008, 10:03 PM
I live in this area and there are company owners, VP's & presidents of companys, CFO's, teachers, ex ticats, union presidents, radio announcers etc living in this area.
astroblaster
Nov 14, 2008, 12:40 AM
i had a ton of friends in the area directly east of gage park and i always loved that area.
comadriver
Nov 14, 2008, 1:41 AM
phew!
flar
Nov 14, 2008, 2:47 AM
East of Gage Park is nice, but there is a change just east of Gage Ave around Cannon
This is Cannon just east of Gage:
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k28/segaert/oddstuff/00039-1.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k28/segaert/oddstuff/00035.jpg
astroblaster
Nov 14, 2008, 3:09 AM
i'd file pretty much anything north of main in that part of the city under "needs work"
it's not a lost cause or anything, but in my opinion, the area from wellington to red hill and north of main still needs a lot of TLC.
i also want to add to my previous statement, that i have a few friends who live west of gage park, and south of main, and that area is also really nice and "up and coming".. but the east of gage park area that i mentioned in my last post is among my favorite neighbourhoods in the city.
raisethehammer
Nov 14, 2008, 3:35 AM
keep in mind that Hamilton's 'main streets' are the roughest and 'ugliest' looking parts of the city. Decades of car-dependent sprawl has sucked the life out of street retail.
If you turn off of Cannon onto the residential side streets around Gage, they are wonderful. I have friends who live all around there...nice, friendly, quiet neighbourhoods.
Sadly, King/Main/Cannon/Barton look like shite thanks to city planning policies.
BrianE
Mar 24, 2009, 4:49 PM
I noticed some activity last night during my nightly stoll through the park. There looked to be a stage with some white fencing being set up just east of the foundtain. There was also a large truck with a giant mature evergreen tree covered in canvas on it. There was a tarp that said National Toys or something like that on it. Also a couple of excavators near the Main Street entrance immediatlly North of the Fountain.
Does anybody know what's going on?
SteelTown
Mar 24, 2009, 5:59 PM
^ Likely to do with this.....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/gageparkk.jpg
LikeHamilton
Mar 24, 2009, 10:35 PM
Info I recieved on the 11th.
On or about March 13, 2009 reconstruction of water service to the fountain and irrigation system will begin at Gage Park (1000 Main St. E.). Traffic will be affected on Main St. E. and at the height of the operation Main St. E. could have only one lane open. Traffic control devices will be utilized. Water supply for firefighting operations will not be affected with the exception of one 4 - 5 hour period where a final connection is to be made to the water main on Main St. E. In both instances (traffic lane closures and water supply) the city will be notifying HES-Fire. The lane closures on Main St. E. are to be finished by March 30, 2009 but the work in the park continues until May, 2009. After hours emergency contact information will be posted in several visible locations on site. The contractor performing the work is O. Ciccarelli and Son Contracting Ltd.
SteelTown
Mar 24, 2009, 11:05 PM
Starting on Friday there's the Spring Tide at Gage Park.
SteelTown
Sep 15, 2009, 2:11 AM
Revitalization work to begin at Gage Park
September 01, 2009
The City of Hamilton’s Public Works Department will begin construction in Gage Park in early September to complete Phase 1 of the Master Plan to revitalize the Park. Since 1922, Gage Park has provided citizens with a rich mixture of open space, play fields, gardens and tree-lined paths that cover over 30 hectares of green space at the foot of the Niagara Escarpment. Located east of the downtown core at Main Street West and Gage Avenue, Gage Park serves both its surrounding downtown community as well as plays host to citywide special events that draw people from beyond Hamilton’s borders.
The Phase 1 plan is part of a new Master Plan design under development in consultation with local stakeholders at numerous public meetings. The contractor will begin work in early September which involves the construction of decorative features at the Corner of Main Street and Gage Avenue and the Main Street fountain entrances, a new drainage system to alleviate the flooding in the north end of the park, the reconstruction of the existing pergola and a new fence along Main Street. The work is expected to be completed by late December 2009.
Every effort will be made to complete this work in an expeditious manner and to keep any inconvenience to a minimum. The Public Works Department thanks the community for their patience and cooperation as we work proactively to revitalize Gage Park for the community to enjoy.
BrianE
Sep 15, 2009, 1:53 PM
I was wondering when they were going to start work again. They completed what seemed like the longest fountain repair job ever just before July and then never turned the fountain on all summer. It's been a while since there have been any updates on which master plan they will be going with. They had open houses 2 years ago but it seems to have fallen off the radar lately.
Looks like work is well underway now. The entire stretch on Main St along Gage park has been fenced off. They have completed the foundation part of the main entrance gate/walls.
realcity
Nov 13, 2009, 2:51 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/gageparkk.jpg
this is the most hilarious thing I've seen. It's a fence and brick wall. I especially love the "GAGE................ PARK" sign
It really shows how low our standards have become.....
realcity
Nov 13, 2009, 2:55 PM
I also give that 1980s pixel board sign.... 6 months until it's not working and not fixed.... just like the fountain in the park. Why don't we use a neon mobile sign? We love those in Hamilton.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/theshawsphotos/sign2.jpg?t=1258125111
crhayes
Nov 13, 2009, 5:21 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/gageparkk.jpg
this is the most hilarious thing I've seen. It's a fence and brick wall. I especially love the "GAGE................ PARK" sign
It really shows how low our standards have become.....
You could spin this positively; this isn't really a huge park (say like, Stanley Park in Vancouver) so why have some unnecessarily extravagant entrance for it? It's a subtle and modest park and it has a subtle and modest, yet still clean and effective, entrance.
However I'm also thinking that we host a successful festival and several concerts here each year that draw people from other cities, so it would make sense to have a more high profile design.
highwater
Nov 13, 2009, 6:16 PM
You could spin this positively; this isn't really a huge park (say like, Stanley Park in Vancouver) so why have some unnecessarily extravagant entrance for it?
Who said it had to be extravagant? This is the most uninspired 'gateway' I've seen since the last time I drove by a Smartcentre. This looks like something you'd see in front of a high school. There's no reason it couldn't have been subtle and modest and cool.
adam
Nov 13, 2009, 10:42 PM
Nevertheless, Gage Park needed more visibility from the street. It was very hard for visitors to find the park. It would be nice to have some statues (James Gage on one side, George Hamilton on the other) sitting atop the pillars, but all in all I say this is an improvement to the city overall.
SteelTown
Mar 18, 2010, 10:44 PM
Future of Gage Park
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a382/hammer396/gagepark.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a382/hammer396/gagepark1.jpg
realcity
Mar 18, 2010, 10:52 PM
^ nice... another project with a brilliant rendering/concept that will never happen. I'll wait for the crane.
realcity
Mar 18, 2010, 10:56 PM
Looks like something London Ontario would build. Do you have more info? What will happen to the original Gage family mansion, currently the Childrens' Museum?
I really like this. Gage Park is a gem.
Based on that parking lot, it looks to be the south side of the park off Lawrence. And the current site of the greenhouse. I like it a lot. I hope it happens.
BrianE
Mar 19, 2010, 1:47 PM
Details can be found on the City's website here: (http://www.hamilton.ca/CityDepartments/PublicWorks/CapitalPlanning/OpenSpace/Gage+Park+Master+Plan.htm)
I like it too.
They've scalled back the hardsuface track/ winter skating rink so that it just circles the rose garden and not the large open area. A good descision IMO.
They decided to expand through the hedges and to the west into the open area next to the tropical greenhouse. I wasn't too thrilled with putting a building right there, it kind of blocks site lines of the escarpment when looking South from the fountain.
I believe the old Gage house will remain as the museum and this new building will be used to house additional Museum programs.
My main concern is that I'm planning to live in this area for a long time, 10+ years and given the pace so far, I'm sure this work will not be completed by then. After the 1st Phase at the front is completed I'm worried they'll lose momentum and it will take forever to get to the most exciting projects.
BrianE
Mar 19, 2010, 1:55 PM
Oh and the aviary will be moved to a new indoor/outdoor building next to the greenhouse. Really excited about that!
The main circular path and entrances will be paved!!!! Sooooooper excited about that after last weeks rain. Improving the cumberland entrance will be great too, right now its some crumbling asphault ramp.
If they lump the new washrooms and paving and improved entrance ways into a Phase 2 that gets done sooner rather than later, I'll be happy.
SteelTown
Mar 19, 2010, 2:25 PM
The tropical greenhouse will be very tall as well, about two storey. Therefore they can plant trees like palm trees.
A new Children Museum will be great, suppose to be 4 times as large as the current one. Probably two or three storey.
Oh and as for funding, they'll finalize the cost this year and request funding in 2011. Remeber this has been a five year process.
SteelTown
Mar 20, 2010, 1:33 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/gagepark11.jpg
SteelTown
Mar 22, 2010, 11:03 AM
Grand plans for Gage
Beautiful birds, green roofs, tropical plants and a revival of Sunday night concerts ... they're all part of plans to draw visitors regionwide to a bigger and better Gage Park.
March 22, 2010
Dana Brown
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/740499
City councillors today will debate an ambitious plan to dramatically transform Gage Park with a new Children's Museum, expanded tropical plant house, and an aviary.
The new facilities would be housed in a central hub complex near the current city works yard.
"I think it's got ... huge potential," said area Councillor Bernie Morelli. "It's obviously one of the crown jewels of our system."
The plan has been five years in the making as part of a new vision for the park. The cost for the entire project, which includes constructing a storm water management facility on the eastern edge of the park, is not yet clear.
Some work has already begun. There has been a new wrought iron fence installed along Main Street and a concerted effort has been made to tame overgrown greenery for safety reasons.
But there's still a long way to go.
Rob Norman, manager of landscape architectural services with the city, said the revamp will likely be done in a phased manner.
Costs for the central hub complex, as city staff call the group of buildings, and associated landscaping would go through the 2011 budget process.
"By having all the facilities together they can complement each other and work together," Norman said of the hub.
"Similarly, you can have shared parking and shared infrastructure. The new buildings are looking at the concept of LEED technology with green roofs potentially on some of them to make them very efficient and achieve efficiencies together."
The final plan is based on four preliminary versions that were presented to the public in 2006. Staff say the latest version will help strengthen the ornamental flower beds, historic water features and the overall park geometry.
There's also expected to be a financial benefit from expanding programming in the park. A major renovation will also allow the city to address barrier-free issues by converting walkways to hard surfaces.
Dave Beland, recording secretary for Friends of Gage Park, called the reno "long overdue."
"We've been pushing for it for a long time ... We're hoping that the plan will be developed around the fountain area next."
In addition to the revamp, Morelli says he's also working on generating new activities in the park. They include bringing back Sunday night concerts.
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