The Future of International Village: Revival?

[mr.x]

It can be said that the mall is a dismal failure, at least so far. It was completed at around the same time as GM Place, and it must've cost a fortune to build. It's terribly located on the outskirts of Canada's poorest neighbourhood, and unlike Pacific Centre it lacks office worker foot traffic for being its "foundation customers". Pacific Centre also benefits from shopper and tourist foot traffic and being right next to the Granville Street transit hub.

What went wrong? The location, for one thing - as explained above. Perhaps even the size of the mall....from what I remember, even though I haven't been there in three years, it's much much bigger than Aberdeen Centre.

But with the revitalization of the Downtown Eastside after the 2010 Olympics, will the mall see revival? Dozens of condo tower developments for the DTES are already being planned by developer giants like Concord Pacific, and of course there's Woodwards - which is the catalyst of all this condo development. Will these developments (including the completion of Yaletown and Concord Pacific) make a significant difference to the public's perception of the mall?

Personally, I think it will...but not significantly. What the Village needs is a major anchor store. Some of you have said it would be a great Ikea location. Maybe even a Walmart? (creates a lot of high paying jobs for those folks sleeping on the sidewalk across the street...Vancouver's version of Mexicans) Or scrap the whole mall revival idea, and turn it into a post-secondary school: maybe another satellite campus for SFU or UBC?

Right now, as I recall, the only "successful" businesses there are McDonalds, Starbucks, Quiznos, and Tinseltown movie theatre on the top floor. Every business has since vacated the mall. And the only way to bring them back is bringing in an anchor store. Get that there, and the people will come. With the new anchor there and foot traffic, you'll get shops to come back. It's a case of "if you build it, they will come"....but of course, it's the anchor store that needs to be the first to build.


What do you think? Because this really is a waste of money and resources as is:

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Chinese New Year - after the parade. This is perhaps the only time the mall is ever busy.
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Oh great, finally some foot traffic....and how exactly is International Village declaring war against the poor? It's quite easy to label things declaring war against the poor.

It's so easy: _______________ declaring war against the poor.
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So, International Village is declaring a war against the poor by kicking them out of their own private property? Almost like saying you can't kick us out of your house.

I can just see it....the world's largest homeless shelter. The homeless peeing in the elevators instead of the mall's toilets.

[Jacques]

MR.X2 I couldn't agree more with you, I recall a few years back I was with my art teacher who is of first nation and was being thrown out of this mall because he was judged undesirable without even knowing him .
since then it seemed to have gone completely in the other direction, drug dealers on Pender street entrance and empty space filled with homeless pissing in the hallways.
One of the shop owner told me he is relocating because the rules from the mall management are to stringent and that they couldn't give a hoot.
they rather let it sit empty until some other group or corporation buys them out.
they got a sweet deal due to the right of passage from CP rail that makes the corridor.
I do not understand why all the malls and shops in Yaletown and Downtown do well, and this one is not.
I wouldn't bet my last buck on any improvement there unless a restructuring management and overhaul was done to that place.
I am also truly bothered by the fact that the greenbelt was supposed to go north from Keefer Street and they ought to have been doing North Carrall but I see they are going south.
leaving the North greenbelt up to Waters street after 2009, the plans stated that the North side be done by 2009.
if you calculate that it took one year to do Keefer to Pender.
imagine how long it will take to get to Water Street.
The workers from the greenbelt are they city employees?
they tell me they couldn't care less as long as they get paid.
they take their time, now that's lame

[eduardo88]

Personally, I think it will...but not significantly. What the Village needs is a major anchor store. Some of you have said it would be a great Ikea location. Maybe even a Walmart? (creates a lot of high paying jobs for those folks sleeping on the sidewalk across the street...Vancouver's version of Mexicans)

OUCH! i'm mexican! but i know exactly what you mean. It'd be great if they had something like an Ikea, it would be the perfect location.

I think the problem with that place is their timing was just horrible. They opened a huge mall in an area with no foot traffic, and no outlook for foot traffic. really, who wants to walk around there? the only time i ever went there was after a canucks game about 5 or 6 years ago. hopefully now with the redevelopment east of the cambie bridge the area will be more lively. that place has great potential to be one of vancouver's busiest malls, just they really need an anchor tenant.

[djh]

Generally, Mr X2, what you have to say is well-informed and unbiased. But I think this post of yours, although it has many good points, raises a lot of exceptions and inaccuracies that need to be addressed:

It can be said that the mall is a dismal failure, at least so far. It was completed at around the same time as GM Place, and it must've cost a fortune to build. It's terribly located on the outskirts of Canada's poorest neighbourhood, and unlike Pacific Centre it lacks office worker foot traffic for being its "foundation customers". Pacific Centre also benefits from shopper and tourist foot traffic and being right next to the Granville Street transit hub.
True: office workers would have given this place the momentum it needed to sustain many businesses such as a food mall (compare to City Square Mall opposite City Hall; it's a rubbish mall but you ever go there at lunchtime and it's packed with City Hall staff; on the weekends it's pretty dead, apart from Safeways shoppers).
When the office tower at GM Place is completed, this could drastically help the mall, as it is just a short walk away.
Re. the location: I think Henderson, the developers, actually made a prescient master-stroke by building on undesireable land and helping to make it desireable. They built the mall and nearly all of the towers in that area, and if they hadn't done that, the area would still be a mess. They are just ahead of their time, and with development of neighbourhoods you have to look past the current conditions and take a risk that the area will improve in the long term. I think they will win out here.

What went wrong? The location, for one thing - as explained above. Perhaps even the size of the mall....from what I remember, even though I haven't been there in three years, it's much much bigger than Aberdeen Centre.

???How can you judge a place that you haven't been to in 3 years?! Can you imagine if somebody on this forum said "Vancouver sucks! I was there 3 years ago and Gastown was a mess!" - well, a lot changes in 3 years. The mall lost it's best tenants more than 3 years ago, so when you last went there it was probably nearly completely empty. Since then, many new small and medium-sized tenants have gone in. They may not be high-profile or drawing lots of foot traffic, but they are making money.
Re. location, I addressed that already: in the long term (even the middle-term) that location will become very hot.
The size is fine.
What really went wrong? Henderson are *terrible* property managers and screwed a lot of the original tenants with big promises and set their expectations very high. They suckered high-end retailers into a neighbourhood with promises that other high-profile anchor tenants were on the verge of signing. That never happened, so the critical mass of high-end shoppers didn't follow. That's it.

But with the revitalization of the Downtown Eastside after the 2010 Olympics, will the mall see revival? Dozens of condo tower developments for the DTES are already being planned by developer giants like Concord Pacific, and of course there's Woodwards - which is the catalyst of all this condo development. Will these developments (including the completion of Yaletown and Concord Pacific) make a significant difference to the public's perception of the mall?

Since you were last in the area 3 YEARS ago, there have been 4 towers completed in the area and 3 more due to go online in the next year (names escape me, but I know some are Firenze and ?Espana?) - that's a couple of thousand condos added to the area. I think the revival is already well and truly underway, nothing to do with Woodwards. Before these new towers, the original International Village towers in the area were an Asian stronghold, which was fine. The new towers have been marketed much more to a wider populous, so the mix of residents should change, and the type of businesses they attract and the areas they visit, will change (e.g., the T&T supermarket relied on the Asian residents; now there may be a demand for, say, a Safeways or Market IGA? The supermarket planned for Woodwards will benefit from these new residents).

Personally, I think it will...but not significantly. What the Village needs is a major anchor store. Some of you have said it would be a great Ikea location. Maybe even a Walmart? (creates a lot of high paying jobs for those folks sleeping on the sidewalk across the street...Vancouver's version of Mexicans) Or scrap the whole mall revival idea, and turn it into a post-secondary school: maybe another satellite campus for SFU or UBC?
It's configuration would make it very difficult for a single massive store to work. It's layout is quite good; on the ground floor, outward-facing stores with street access (as well as internal access from the mall), and a central open plan "meeting area"; on the next floor up it still has mostly boutique-sized stores on the perimeter, and a central area with more boutique stores that could theoretically be opened up into a bigger single store. So any big box store would not work there because they rely on one single entrance and one single exit, and being inward-facing.
And I really don't appreciate the comment about Mexicans. It's an assumption that all Mexicans are lower-class.
The post-secondary school idea is a really good one; in fact Langara was, once upon a time, looking at taking over the space.

Right now, as I recall, the only "successful" businesses there are McDonalds, Starbucks, Quiznos, and Tinseltown movie theatre on the top floor. Every business has since vacated the mall. And the only way to bring them back is bringing in an anchor store. Get that there, and the people will come. With the new anchor there and foot traffic, you'll get shops to come back. It's a case of "if you build it, they will come"....but of course, it's the anchor store that needs to be the first to build.

Yes, anchor stores do bring traffic. But it's not the only way. You could make the mall a specialist mall, a destination mall, a low-end mall, an entertainment mall (put in a bowling alley, arcade, etc), an arts centre (because of it`s high ceilings a private company or level of government could turn it into a massive museum or art gallery for large pieces (natural history museum? aeroplanes? boats? whatever) ), a science centre, a convention centre, a conference centre, a performance centre, and so on. There's tons of things that could draw people and tons of things the city actually needs. It doesn't just have to be homogenous consume-consume-consume shops.

And yes, there are loads of other businesses in there. It sounds as if you're defining "successful" as being "name-brand recognizable". The tenants are doing fine from what I see when I'm down there - the food mall is packed when the cinema is open. I was there last week and construction crews were putting new shops in. Bod & Christensen (high end leather jacket shop from Montreal on the food mall's floor) has been there since Day One. I know the manager and they make a ton of money, though you wouldn't know that on casual inspection. There's a knock-off furniture shop that takes up multiple locations - they've been there a couple of years now. There's a video rental shop and a mobile phone shop - all of which are doing well. And the 7-11 does great business. So although the mall is not a clone of Pacific Centre, or anything like the place it's developers has intended, its existing tenants are doing fine. The mall itself though, is far from fully-leased, and as I said before, that's due to Henderson being terrible landlords, terrible with defining a strategic direction for the mall and terrible with marketing the mall correctly to draw new tenants. I remember one year when they had just changed property managers and they marketed the mall to small Asian businesses - that Chinese New Year and the week after, the mall was jam-packed with small tenants and shoppers, hawking all kinds of weird stuff. That direction - a covered extension to Chinatown - could really work in the interim for the mall, until the neighbourhood has the critical mass to attract the kind of tenants I imagine they really want.

What do you think? Because this really is a waste of money and resources as is:


They aren't wasting any taxpayer money, in fact they are generating tax revenue for the city. Plus they are helping to give momentum to the rejuvenation of the neighbourhood, even though it's slower than planned. I'd rather have that mall there and take 10 years to be a success than have a big lake there for 10 years, as was in the adjacent lot that Henderson also owned (it's now a condo development).

[mr.x]

Since you were last in the area 3 YEARS ago, there have been 4 towers completed in the area and 3 more due to go online in the next year (names escape me, but I know some are Firenze and ?Espana?) - that's a couple of thousand condos added to the area. I think the revival is already well and truly underway, nothing to do with Woodwards. Before these new towers, the original International Village towers in the area were an Asian stronghold, which was fine. The new towers have been marketed much more to a wider populous, so the mix of residents should change, and the type of businesses they attract and the areas they visit, will change (e.g., the T&T supermarket relied on the Asian residents; now there may be a demand for, say, a Safeways or Market IGA? The supermarket planned for Woodwards will benefit from these new residents).

Well, I've been to the area tons of times in the last 3 years...it has certainly changed. But the last time I actually went into the mall was to watch a movie i think, and there was one time last year after that Chinatown festival that i went to Starbucks at the mall.

Like I said before, most of that development is Concord Pacific driven not the Downtown Eastside redevelopment.




It's configuration would make it very difficult for a single massive store to work. It's layout is quite good; on the ground floor, outward-facing stores with street access (as well as internal access from the mall), and a central open plan "meeting area"; on the next floor up it still has mostly boutique-sized stores on the perimeter, and a central area with more boutique stores that could theoretically be opened up into a bigger single store. So any big box store would not work there because they rely on one single entrance and one single exit, and being inward-facing.
And I really don't appreciate the comment about Mexicans. It's an assumption that all Mexicans are lower-class.
The post-secondary school idea is a really good one; in fact Langara was, once upon a time, looking at taking over the space.

Well, it's been more than 10 years since the mall has been built. Any kind of serious attempt to revitalize it would require some heavy capital investments, such as accommodating a big box/anchor store. I'm sure it can be done, and really that's probably the only solution to the mall.

With regards to the Mexican comment, it was an analogy....that many (certainly not all) lower-class Mexicans are a significant part of the Wal-Mart workforce in the southern states.

I'll respond to the rest of your post later!

[jjjb]

They aren't wasting any taxpayer money, in fact they are generating tax revenue for the city. Plus they are helping to give momentum to the rejuvenation of the neighbourhood, even though it's slower than planned. I'd rather have that mall there and take 10 years to be a success than have a big lake there for 10 years, as was in the adjacent lot that Henderson also owned (it's now a condo development).

Hallelujah for that and for pointing out some of the services that are there and are successful without being brand-names. The Starbucks and McD's seem to be the two brand-name stores actually doing well there - the Quiznos, for example is virtually deserted at all times.

The new clothing store on the ground level will do well regardless, because even though it's not a brand we recognize, it is quite popular in asia and they probably do a lot of mail-order from the location, seeing as it's their only North American location for now. Unfortunately, it seems that the video shop has gotten fed up with the management and is moving to a location as we speak. YokoYaya is just plain awesome and does VERY well, in spite of the insane shoplifting that I've seen occur there - probably due to the inane security staff at that mall.

I think that Mr. Olympics was saying that he hadn't been to Aberdeen in three years, not Tinseltown. Since then Aberdeen has been completely torn down and built anew, and it is HUGE and very, very successful, with many huge Asian brands and probably more to come.

As for those who are suggesting Ikea (I'm not even gonna mention the idea of a Wal-Mart) going in there, please get real. First of all, even though they have tested some smaller format stores in urban centres, Ikea bases its retail model on offering the lowest price in exchange for extreme inconvenience. That is why they are located WAY outside of the core in cheap boxes that are usually 340,000 sqft. In spite of that fact, when they do open a store the authorities have to be involved, because their influence on traffic patterns is such that entire interchanges had to be rebuilt to accomodate them.

[SpongeG]

malls need anchor stores

and good management neither of which that place has

i don't think anything can revive it now

[djh]

Well, I've been to the area tons of times in the last 3 years...it has certainly changed. But the last time I actually went into the mall was to watch a movie i think, and there was one time last year after that Chinatown festival that i went to Starbucks at the mall.

Like I said before, most of that development is Concord Pacific driven not the Downtown Eastside redevelopment.

Where do you get this idea that the Tinseltown area is connected to Concord Pacific? That's the second time you've said it, and it's completely untrue!
http://www.lestwarog.com/region-3.html
Check out the map. NONE of the buildings surrounding Tinseltown are designed, developed or owned by Concord Pacific.




Well, it's been more than 10 years since the mall has been built. Any kind of serious attempt to revitalize it would require some heavy capital investments, such as accommodating a big box/anchor store. I'm sure it can be done, and really that's probably the only solution to the mall.


The mall was completed in 2000.
I just made this point: to revitalise the mall does NOT have to mean a big box store! I listed many many alternatives to that. Yes it would need something to draw people, but you can either have ONE very big draw (i.e., your big box store) or LOTS of smaller draws (e.g., an entertainment complex with lots of different operators running their own businesses under one roof). It does not have to be shop-shop-shop.

[jlousa]

The mall can be revived and will . I far as I know there is a Rexall drugstore going in and there is going to a pub as well. The pub is an odd concept but who knows if it's along the lines of a sports bar it might do okay, I beleive it's going to be located on the 2nd floor in the NW corner (The new condo dwellers probably don't want to drink at the Grand Union). The food court needs some help but at least they were smart enough to put it on the 2nd floor, hence making people walk thru the mall to get to it. Henderson dropped the ball from the start but it looks like things are starting to improve. Henderson past experience was Henderson Mall in Coq, and anyone that's been there knows how great that one turned out, I beleive they are learning though. Just slowly.

What I would like to see is the food court coverted to an international food fair, like the one on Hornby by Pender, anyone that's ever been there knows how busy that place can get. If there was an international food fair opened longer hours and on weekends it should make a killing. I know the office lunch crowds aren't there but evening and weekend crowds could be.

[jjjb]

malls need anchor stores

and good management neither of which that place has

i don't think anything can revive it now

Okay so let's think of some likely anchor stores.

Yoko Yaya is on one corner, and it's doing gangbusters, and a Rexall is going in (presumably) on the other side. There's not gonna be anything fancier because people can't look at bums without getting depressed or whatever insecurity they have about themselves, and a number of other factors affecting this particular mall, not the least of which is that IT'S A MALL IN THE FIRST PLACE.

It's also a good idea to step out of our North American bias and think of another reason why it's not doing so well - it's set up as an asian mall. It has the look and feel of on and it was built by Hong Kong promoters during the late 90s Hong Kong-handover frenzy. Obviously the exodus that was expected didn't quite materialize, and those who did emigrate live in their own suburb where they have their own wicked malls that are essentially providing what Intl Village was supposed to be. So there's not gonna be an American Eagle or other such disposable mall thing you wanna see there because, likewise, it's all already represented in the WASP ghettoes just one SkyTrain stop away. The fact is also that Vancouver might look like it means business, but it's really a small metropolis of a little over 2 million. You can only open so many Gaps.

Besides the fact that malls don't work that well in this climate because it's not that necessary - just look at the Park Royal extension. You simply don't get that anywhere else in Canada because the winters are -40 celsius and the summers are the opposite - hot and disgusting. Our downtown mall (Pacific Centre) is exactly the same size as the Rideau Centre, and our population is double. That means that people would rather stroll down Robson (which has all the same stores as Rideau Centre plus nicer ones), even on a rainy day, than become the captive audiences of a mall.

The only part of Intl Village that needs to be repositioned is the second floor. Offices would actually make sense there because it would fill up the ground floor with services for those working above. The theatre doesn't pay rent so it's safe for a while. So just move the depressing food court downstairs and replace the escalators with elevators that go straight up to the second floor and disable second floor access from the theatre elevators. The second floor needs renos anyways because as nice as it is, it's got "Fashion! Fashion! Fashion!" actually embedded in the architectural details so you're kinda limiting the appeal for a store selling anything else, which no one would know about anyways because as I said, Vancouver has a very healthy street level retail environment.

[djh]

malls need anchor stores

and good management neither of which that place has

i don't think anything can revive it now

The Trocadero in London (http://www.londontrocadero.com/)(Picadilly Circus) is probably the most successful "mall" (income per square foot) in Britain, if not Europe. It doesn't have a single huge anchor store. It does work by having several different companies running cinemas, lots and lots of small impulse-buy stores (candy stores, novelty shops, etc), themed restaurants, small-footprint chainstores (Tie Rack, Accessorize, Claire's, Body Shop, etc.), a couple nightclubs, exhibition spaces, bars, and a couple of huge high-tech amusement arcades and a casino. This place is busy well into the night - I think it closes at about 4am. It's always packed. San Francisco's Metreon is a similar mix of entertainment, restaurants, music, exhibitions (although it is basically sponsored by Sony who run about 4 different spots in the mall - but not in one single location, and if they left there would be lots of other tenants to replace them)

So you don't need a single anchor store. You just make the location an attraction for a certain type of market. In this case, entertainment.

[jjjb]

The Trocadero in London (http://www.londontrocadero.com/)(Picadilly Circus) is probably the most successful "mall" (income per square foot) in Britain, if not Europe. It doesn't have a single huge anchor store. It does work by having several different companies running cinemas, lots and lots of small impulse-buy stores (candy stores, novelty shops, etc), themed restaurants, small-footprint chainstores (Tie Rack, Accessorize, Claire's, Body Shop, etc.), a couple nightclubs, bars, and a couple of huge high-tech amusement arcades and a casino. This place is busy well into the night - I think it closes at about 4am. It's always packed.


That's a totally amazing idea. Intl Village is just kind of out of the way for now, and as I said, unless the climate changes radically, we're lucky not to NEED malls. However that kind of idea could work super in the Storyeum and adjacent buildings. Tourists are there anyways, and if one of the booths fails you just keep replacing them with new ones.

[djh]

The only part of Intl Village that needs to be repositioned is the second floor. Offices would actually make sense there because it would fill up the ground floor with services for those working above.

Good idea. That's what the Eaton Centre has. It would probably speed up the rejuvenation of the ground floor tenants into shops that service those office workers too.
And the point you made about the West Coast not needing covered malls is spot-on too. Since there are so few dry sunny days here I'd rather walk outside and get the sun than be in a mall looking at the same shops.

[mathew]

The site-specific CD-1 zoning could encompass many kinds of retail and office programs. At 260,000 sf – there would be no problems accommodating an arcade style shopping plaza at grade and offices on the upper level. In fact, I'm sure Eco Fitness would be better suited for one of the larger spaces on level 2 than the Cordova St parkade space. The entire Intl Village site can include up to 1,400 housing units, including a minimum of 210 family market housing units and 140 non-market housing units. To date, nearly 370 units have been completed, 82 of which are family market housing units. In addition, 500 units are scheduled for completion in the near future. An additional 575 units can be built in International Village before capacity is reached. Although, not quite the density of Woodwards (8+ FSR), this is certainly enough density to require amenities and there would be no better place than Intl Village Mall – everyone seems a little stuck on retail/office – but certainly with CD-1 zoning we could stand to see an incredible mixed use program in this space. What confuses me is that the developer/owner hasn't sought out a feasibility study or made any visible effort to market the nominally unused space.

[jjjb]

Good idea. That's what the Eaton Centre has. It would probably speed up the rejuvenation of the ground floor tenants into shops that service those office workers too.
And the point you made about the West Coast not needing covered malls is spot-on too. Since there are so few dry sunny days here I'd rather walk outside and get the sun than be in a mall looking at the same shops.

Exactly. I find that people who haven't lived anywhere besides Vancouver are a little too development-and-revitalization centric and don't realize that simply living here is a trillion times better than Toronto, Ottawa, and, weather-wise, Montreal.

So you have to look at a depressing mall that COULD be generating profit and there's bums everywhere. Big deal. You get to walk around in shorts year-round, you can build whatever you want wherever you want without dealing with red tape and all sorts of dumb regulations, and even your basic office drone or MBA jock is a 200% more socially-conscious than his Bay Street counterpart, believe it or not.

Whenever there's a discussion of Gastown/Chinatown "revitalization", I must admit that the despotic attitude a lot of the posters have towards the homeless seems a little misplaced. Sure it might look overwhelming, but other places have similar populations and make the most of it (didn't Vancouver tourism bill the city as Vansterdam at some point). You have to remember that if you choose to live in Canada because of the generally more liberal politics (whether you realize it or not), you have to deal with the results: the homeless population of Vancouver can be seen as more or less the homeless population of Canada altogether, and that is due to the country's very specific Human Rights Charter combined with the city's climate (to put it in very simplistic terms). Of course, there's people who are just simply lazy (just read the APC members' blogs on homelessnation for a hoot), but if you're gonna blame the demise of the stupidest idea for a mall on the actual homeless, you're better off saving your energy and doing something constructive like profiteering off of them.

[mathew]

Exactly. I find that people who haven't lived anywhere besides Vancouver are a little too development-and-revitalization centric and don't realize that simply living here is a trillion times better than Toronto, Ottawa, and, weather-wise, Montreal.... the homeless population of Vancouver can be seen as more or less the homeless population of Canada altogether, and that is due to the country's very specific Human Rights Charter combined with the city's climate (to put it in very simplistic terms).

I think there is a tendency to sort of tacitly define DTES by way of a series of National Geographic-type imagery of needles, shopping carts and vacant buildings. What people often fail to note in their Cartesian way of thinking about geographical space is that borderlines and boundaries are physical but the psychology of space isn't tied directly to landmarks. DTES is, in essence, a culmination of Canada's homelessness – like you say. Ask anyone living in the alley behind my apartment on Cordova and they tell you they are from: Thunder Bay, Brandon, Kitchener, Brampton, Regina so on. And I think Vancouver often only takes ownership of DTES when it suits our need to have an area that distinguishes us simply by virtue of its extremity. On the other hand, you're right about Vancouverites being development-centric – with this sort of hyper-focus people seem to get really one-dimensional with program requirements: a mall is for retail, an office tower is for offices, the DTES is for homeless, etc... It's a strange conundrum – this kind of thinking in a city that is unique in its attitude towards density and mixed-use development. Mixed-use in it's purest sense is a win-win for the developer, community and CoV – generating density that results in meaningful sustainability, foot-traffic, vibrant streetscapes and real economic opportunity.

[jjjb]

Mixed-use in it's purest sense is a win-win for the developer, community and CoV – generating density that results in meaningful sustainability, foot-traffic, vibrant streetscapes and real economic opportunity.

Exactly what my profiteering comment is about - create higher density (and therefore more profits from your hyper-marked-up condos) by doing your homework and taking advantage of programs implemented by this city in order to get a handle on its specific situation.

That doesn't change the fact that some people will always want to sanitize everything because somehow they think "the world" will not be able to stand the sight of Vancouver's darker aspects when the olympics roll around.

I would go so far as to say that ultra-loaded promoters could stand to make a mint IN THE LONG TERM by working with the city on a "low-income district" slightly to the east of what is not being redeveloped. Build straight-up social housing that is nice and dignified next to a city/province run social service center. The thing is, Concord-type buildings are cheap to build, and over the next 5-10 years, what is bound to happen in this "planned ghetto", if the social services do their job properly, is a decrease in mental illness, addiction, crime etc. Those units will then be fit to be re-gentrified (as the old SROs currently are) and sold to a huge profit when that area becomes the next logical place for condos to be built anyway. Besides, it's not like Wwds marketing isn't trying to appeal to people's compassionate, socially-conscious side by calling it an Intellectual Property etc. You're just basically synthesizing the next up-and-coming neighbourhood.

Anyways, this has little to do with the mall at this point - Gastown/DTES thread, anyone?

[SFUVancouver]

I agree with most of the comments so far, and welcome guys, it is great to have this kind of dialogue.

I've fallen into the trap of thinking that all Int'l Village needs is an anchor store or two but over time I've come to realise that Henderson, the mall's owner, really seems to be the problem. Yes, Int'l Village is pretty close to the worst of the DTES but it sure doesn't feel that way once you are inside, nor has that deterred people from coming to the Tinseltown cinemas. So what exactly is the problem? As I see it, programming and leasing.

I've heard anecdotally that the lease rates are way out of step with the reality of Int'l Village as a failed mall. I also think that the success of the Chinese New Year celebrations on the main concourse show that people are more than willing to come out to the space if there is a reason. So hire a damn event programmer and start booking that space throughout the year. Get the city to start hosting public events and forums there like it does in the Library's main concourse. Have the Art Gallery start having photography installations and use it as a sculpture showcase space. Have Emily Carr, UBC, and SFU jointly get a sweetheart lease on a big empty second floor retail space and turn it into a multi-discipline whitebox gallery space for student work and book some damn art openings.

Just start getting people in the habit of going to the space and see what happens. It shouldn't cost Henderson very much at all and if it helps to postively shape perceptions of Int'l Village and brings stability to the existing leases then it is money well spent.

One last thing, the food fair needs a new ceiling treatment and those jet engine-like HVAC fans need to go. It never ceases to surprise me how loud and unpleasant they are. The combination of dark ceiling with all the guts showing, loud fans, and industrial-grade lighting is just too much to ask people to accept.

[Incidentally it just started lightly snowing in Vancouver as I write this]

[Skook]

The word from people who live in the Europa, which is the apartment tower actually connected to Int'l Village, and from merchants I've spoken to in the mall, is that Henderson are abysmal property managers who can't be trusted and are asking for rents that are way out of line.

However, I can confirm that Rexall Drugs are going in on the main floor, that a large restaurant is going in on the second floor (apparently some sort of Japanese Buffet), that a pub is going in on the West side of the building (across from T&T, near the7-11) and that a liquor store is apparently coming soon (on the other side of the 7-11).

The video store is moving across the street into Firenze (also a Henderson property).

Incidentally, these developers are so inept at marketing that you have to put in a major effort to find the Internation Village website (which looks like it was done as a class project in elementary school). I'll save you the trouble of looking for it - http://www.internationalvillagemall.ca/index.html

[deasine]

very interesting discussion here... I didn't know anything about International Village except for the movie theater, which I only been to twice.

The website is disgusting. Even I can do better.

The mall needs a better management period. I walk in there (two months ago for the movie Into Thin Air) and I see empty retail everywhere. Either something's wrong with the management or the prices of the stores are really high (or both).

But I think we need to see more residential in the Downtown Eastside. A community where the poor, the middle-class, and the rich live. Once we see more residential, we would see a stronger demand for commercial: restaurants, retail stores, and markets. International Village is in a pretty good location, SkyTrain and parks nearby. I can see the mall become a community gathering spot in the future.

[hollywoodnorth]

The mall can be revived and will . I far as I know there is a Rexall drugstore going in and there is going to a pub as well. The pub is an odd concept but who knows if it's along the lines of a sports bar it might do okay, I beleive it's going to be located on the 2nd floor in the NW corner

any idea where in the mall the Rexall is going? Size of store? Timeline for opening? :cheers:

[hollywoodnorth]

The site-specific CD-1 zoning could encompass many kinds of retail and office programs. At 260,000 sf – there would be no problems accommodating an arcade style shopping plaza at grade and offices on the upper level. In fact, I'm sure Eco Fitness would be better suited for one of the larger spaces on level 2 than the Cordova St parkade space. The entire Intl Village site can include up to 1,400 housing units, including a minimum of 210 family market housing units and 140 non-market housing units. To date, nearly 370 units have been completed, 82 of which are family market housing units. In addition, 500 units are scheduled for completion in the near future. An additional 575 units can be built in International Village before capacity is reached. Although, not quite the density of Woodwards (8+ FSR), this is certainly enough density to require amenities and there would be no better place than Intl Village Mall – everyone seems a little stuck on retail/office – but certainly with CD-1 zoning we could stand to see an incredible mixed use program in this space. What confuses me is that the developer/owner hasn't sought out a feasibility study or made any visible effort to market the nominally unused space.

seems like there is only 1 location left for Henderson to build on at the entire Intl Village site......and thats at Pender and Abbott...........575 units left seems like they wasted 500 or so units as that site can only take a midrise at 75 units max I reckon.......odd to me?

[jjjb]

any idea where in the mall the Rexall is going? Size of store? Timeline for opening? :cheers:

Across from Starbucks in the only large anchor (accessible from outside) spot left. There was a Rexall Coming Soon sign in there until the renovations really began.

[djh]

I've heard anecdotally that the lease rates are way out of step with the reality of Int'l Village as a failed mall. I also think that the success of the Chinese New Year celebrations on the main concourse show that people are more than willing to come out to the space if there is a reason. So hire a damn event programmer and start booking that space throughout the year. Get the city to start hosting public events and forums there like it does in the Library's main concourse. Have the Art Gallery start having photography installations and use it as a sculpture showcase space. Have Emily Carr, UBC, and SFU jointly get a sweetheart lease on a big empty second floor retail space and turn it into a multi-discipline whitebox gallery space for student work and book some damn art openings.


Precisely what I was saying in the beginning. Think outside of the (big) box (tenant) for solutions!

[SFUVancouver]

From the Int'l Village website:

"There are an estimated 50,000 people living in the area, with a projected 150,000 in the future revitalized neighbourhood."

"Our new tenants include an 8000 sq ft Japanese department store, another 8000 sq ft national brand drug store, an 8000 sq ft Japanese buffet restaurant, and a wine store together with a bar and pub. We are also inviting a 10,000 sq ft "Kid Fun Centre", as well as a Cantonese style restaurant to join our mall. "

I think they also take some liberties with their definition of "leased" for their list of stores. For the "regular store" page they list only four available units that range from 530 to 948 sq ft. For the "small store" page they list 10 available units ranging from 186(!) to 490 sq ft. Second floor retail has twenty available units ranging from 312 to 2048 sq ft. There are also 42 units "under negotiation".

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that they are doing some upgrades to the place. Hopefully the drug store and new restaurants will do okay. Rexall should be fine, especially if they carry more day to day stuff like London Drugs and Shoppers do.

[jjjb]

From the Int'l Village website:

"There are an estimated 50,000 people living in the area, with a projected 150,000 in the future revitalized neighbourhood."


Yeah, I mean Henderson aren't dumb, just greedy. An example may be drawn from those markets where it's still viable to build rental housing: if you have enough money in the bank to just sit on a partly-occupied building in an "up-and-coming" area for 1-5 years, you'll reap the benefits of charging crazy rent to keep the "standard" of tenants high. It's easier to manage a building full of rich, low-maintenance tenants than to have to kick everyone out when the neighbourhood changes (or be allowed to raise the rent by only 4%).

Henderson would definitely not be interested even at this point in renting out to SFU/UBC or anything public, unfortunately.

[jlousa]

Just to clarify commercial rents are not capped at 4%/yr or any percentage, once the lease is over you can up it to whatever you want, even if you keep the existing tenant. The lease could be written to include rent increases of say 10% a year for the length of the term.

It sounds like good things are starting to happen there, looking forward to seeing the mall completely leased.

[jjjb]

Just to clarify commercial rents are not capped at 4%/yr or any percentage, once the lease is over you can up it to whatever you want, even if you keep the existing tenant. The lease could be written to include rent increases of say 10% a year for the length of the term.


Yes of course that's why I was making a parallel with the residential side of things. In either case it's probably best for them to just keep it empty rather than have to deal with tenants that for some reason "bring down the place" by whatever standard they have. A former tenant of theirs was telling me that they were keeping the rents extremely high in order not to dilute their vision of a high-end mall.

I just can't wait til I can spend more money there either! :banana:

[Jacques]

It's also a good idea to step out of our North American bias and think of another reason why it's not doing so well - it's set up as an asian mall. It has the look and feel of on and it was built by Hong Kong promoters during the late 90s Hong Kong-handover frenzy. Obviously the exodus that was expected didn't quite materialize, and those who did emigrate live in their own suburb where they have their own wicked malls that are essentially providing what Intl Village was supposed to be.
there is no denying this is true, and Henderson is simply playing the waiting game for when space is scarce to validate its exuberance in high rent and lousy security.
I don't want to play the racist card but look who works there, find me how many Caucasian works there and at T&T, this is supposed to a diversified city , they separated themselves by defining Chintown as anything from Pender south side and above north is hell do not go there, shame shame.

[Rusty Gull]

Exactly. I find that people who haven't lived anywhere besides Vancouver are a little too development-and-revitalization centric and don't realize that simply living here is a trillion times better than Toronto, Ottawa, and, weather-wise, Montreal


I'm sorry, but I disagree. Should we really be moaning about the folks on this board who are excited about getting on with building out this city -- instead of somehow contenting themselves with supposedly wonderful weather and liberal politics?


Whenever there's a discussion of Gastown/Chinatown "revitalization", I must admit that the despotic attitude a lot of the posters have towards the homeless seems a little misplaced. Sure it might look overwhelming, but other places have similar populations and make the most of it (didn't Vancouver tourism bill the city as Vansterdam at some point).


I'm hesitant to burst your idealist vision of the DTES, but this isn't a cute culture of pot-smoking, bong-hits and green leaf cafes. It revolves around institutionalized poverty and addiction -- aggravated by the apologists for all of this who are usually profiting from the suffering of others.


You have to remember that if you choose to live in Canada because of the generally more liberal politics (whether you realize it or not), you have to deal with the results: the homeless population of Vancouver can be seen as more or less the homeless population of Canada altogether, and that is due to the country's very specific Human Rights Charter combined with the city's climate (to put it in very simplistic terms).

I don't get it. We're supposed to encourage homelessness because it's part of Canada's liberal tradition? Where in the Human Rights Charter is there a specific reference to being homeless?

I guess I take a tougher (and apparently unpopular) stance on this issue. Let's find help (health care/detox/hospitals) and show compassion for all of those suffering from mental illness and addictions -- but for those who choose to prey on the weak and break the law to perpetuate problems in the DTES neighbourhood, let's crack down via the police and the courts.

[mathew]

I'm sorry, but I disagree. Should we really be moaning about the folks on this board who are excited about getting on with building out this city -- instead of somehow contenting themselves with supposedly wonderful weather and liberal politics?

Sometimes just building a city isn't as easy as it seems. Between legal liabilities, legislated law and the social and historical context of an urban centre there are some who feel an ethical obligation. I'm in no way politicizing development; there are, however, a multitude of ways to develop. A good urban planner will take into consideration the voices of all the angry villagers, stakeholders, end-users and levels of government to produce something that is as culturally sustainable as it is revenue-generating. So, I disagree.

I'm hesitant to burst your idealist vision of the DTES, but this isn't a cute culture of pot-smoking, bong-hits and green leaf cafes. It revolves around institutionalized poverty and addiction -- aggravated by the apologists for all of this who are usually profiting from the suffering of others.

Again, I think you all but hastily read what jjjb was saying. There is no implication of a "pot-smoking, bong-hits culture" – if you paid attention you would realize your loose interpretation, as quoted, more accurately represents a one-block radius of Hastings by Victory Square and probably embodies all of Commercial Drive – not at all what any of the above conversation has been about. The poverty and addiction in the DTES is NOT institutionalized and there is no visible corporate or otherwise entity profiting from this heartbreak. The DTES is a complex economy with its own taxonomy of wheeling, dealing and on a basic level – survival. If you spent any time living in DTES (like jjjb has – should you read any of his/her earlier posts) you would realize the sheer necessity of approaching development in the DTES with an ounce of awareness and compassion. This is not the realm of college poli-sci – but a real-world appraisal of a very unique and painful phenomenon. Any comparison or reference to Vansterdam was probably referencing Vancouver's necessary lapse in regulation of the sex trade and drug trafficking in DTES. Please read others' comments carefully before you reply with criticism.



I don't get it. We're supposed to encourage homelessness because it's part of Canada's liberal tradition? Where in the Human Rights Charter is there a specific reference to being homeless? let's crack down via the police and the courts.

And again, did jjjb say anything about encouraging homelessness? No. However, unique to Canada's attitude towards Human Rights is a very tacit live-and-let-live attitude. Saying that a cultural condition, through cause and effect, results in a specific playing-out of a social context is "encouraging" is a misrepresentation. DTES did not create itself, so to speak. Saying "let's crack down via the police and courts", really shows a lack of understanding of the current condition. The Vancouver Police have an already very active role in DTES, and no one can dispute the necessity of their presence – but when we are talking about flesh-and-blood people in a specific, but ever-evolving, loosely-defined geographical area there is only so much (again within the reality of Human Rights law) that the police can do. There are so many demographics at play, so many statistics in action – rescidivism, funding, prevention, addiction management, affordable housing, the list goes on. It takes a village – not simply a police state.

[jjjb]

My comment about the unique quality of life in Vancouver referred to the idea that because you see (or read about) how pretty malls and condos work elsewhere doesn't mean it makes ANY sense to just implement the same concepts here "as-is" - Vancouver's situation is too complex and unique to just settle on building mirror images of something that works elsewhere. The great thing is that it's a very young city, so we get more leeway than in other cities with less mutable heritages. I'm not saying just walk around in shorts all year and smoke pot AND do nothing - that's Montreal's job (except for the shorts). I like the energy that this place has - just ask Ottawans how long it takes to get an LRT line. However, that gumption to "just build" kinda snowballs into this mania to have everything working at full force: full malls and more more more condos. The truth is, the economy is strong but not that strong. Sit back a little and enjoy what we do have before you pop a vein in your forehead (and lose a lot of money).

So what I'm saying is: build according to your context.

The city has devised a system whereby you can choose to build some disposable tower that doesn't really add anything to the city and just make a quick buck, OR put together a proposal that encompasses a wide variety of usages in exchange for a rezoning that will give you bonus (and valuable transferable) density, meaning that you're not only going to make even more money selling those shoeboxes to those suburbanites who want to live closer to the mountains and the parks and so on, you're actually helping to solve this city's "problems" bit by bit. We have a massive homeless population (which is dumped on us by the rest of Canada), and a severe dearth of office and public space. Other downtowns don't have that. They have tons of room to build very segregated buildings dedicated to office, entertainment, shopping or dwelling, which are connected by catwalks and tunnels. Are people more or less happy there? I don't care but they don't live here.

What does Tinseltown bring to the neighbourhood? I don't know if the point of moving to downtown VANCOUVER is to spend your Saturdays indoors shopping for leather jackets or sitting on a plastic table at an "international food court". You can do that at Metropolis or Brentwood Town Centre.

So what you end up with is people on this forum deploring the emptiness of a beautiful (???) space that was poorly-devised in the first place, and just dumping the blame for that on the neighbourhood's reputation. It's not like it's Harlem 20 years ago - when was the last you got shot down here? Deal with it for now or at least realize that being born in the gutter and neglected all your life doesn't exactly set you up for a very successful life. Ever been to a shrink? Did you find it hard? With some help the people who live in SROs and on the street can hope to get some semblance of self-esteem, but in the meantime that help is scarce. More displacement and mental abuse from people in SUVs probably don't help much.

It's also funny that you even bring up marijuana in this. When I was referring to Vansterdam, I was bringing up the idea that in some international markets, the city (marketed as such) was not-so-subtly likened to Amsterdam. Something along the lines of: "If you want a hooker and some pot, great! We (kinda but don't tell the United States) have that. If that's not your scene don't worry, it's part of the local flavour and it won't touch you". Of course if the city was truly adventurous and actually implemented more of the practices that you see elsewhere, there would be less survival prostitution, the dealers wouldn't come down from Surrey to prey on the junkies, and Vancouver could cash in on it by displaying to this kind of forward thinking mentality to the world and back it up with results.

I just think that some of the opportunities to work with that this city has to offer while relieving some of its problems are lost because we think that bricks and mortar are all that are needed to pave over a problem, which was caused in part by the way this country is set up.

[SpongeG]

they tried making it an entertainment draw that when it opened

it had that huge arcade with indoor go karts and a benetton sports store, BC BG some high end clothing stores and it was deader than dead

I felt sorry for Benetton they put so much money into opening that sports store and it probably never made any money

I don't think i ever saw anyone in that amusemtn/arcade place

now that paramount has opened the movie theatre is never as busy - used to see movies there often but now would rather go elsewhere - parking is a pain and if you get the wrong stamp they charge a fortune to get out - made the mistake once of getting stamped at 7-11 before the movie and when we went to leave it said we owed $17! :koko:

so we whined and he said ok next time...

I only did it that way because my friend had passes and i didn;t have to go to the theatre box office..

[jjjb]

I also want to clarify that I'm not responding to anyone directly, and that the use of the pronoun "you" is to be seen as designating "people at large".

[hollywoodnorth]

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that they are doing some upgrades to the place. Hopefully the drug store and new restaurants will do okay. Rexall should be fine, especially if they carry more day to day stuff like London Drugs and Shoppers do.

The Rexall on West Georgia @ Burrard does great and I often hit it up instead of LD....as the LD on Robson is so cramped/packed and poorly run.

And they do have a good mix of day to day stuff...Rexall has more of a Shoppers feel to it than an LD feel. No electronics, etc.

[hollywoodnorth]

also seeing as I'm in the Entertainment Industry.......I have heard rumours of a club space being created in The IV Mall......seems like a good location with lots of clubs in the area already and the availabilty of parking in the mall later at night. West Ed mall for example has a few clubs inside the mall....so it is workable.

This is not the pub as has been mentioned but a seperate project.

[Rusty Gull]

I just think that some of the opportunities to work with that this city has to offer while relieving some of its problems are lost because we think that bricks and mortar are all that are needed to pave over a problem, which was caused in part by the way this country is set up.

Well, you are right that throwing up buildings is not a cure-all for any neighbourhood's woes. Many areas in Metro Vancouver are learning that... a rash of condo high-rises doesn't translate into enhanced liveability.

In the case of International Village, doesn't Henderson being an offshore investor play a role? They can afford to sit on this real estate, whether it's successful or not... and be oblivious to whether it makes a meaningful contribution to the surrounding area.

[Skook]

I live near tinseltown and, while what is happening in the DTES is undeniably a tragedy, I don't believe the problem is poverty. The problem in the area is drug addiction and mental illness, often in combination. Poverty is the result of this problem, not the cause.

I'm not sure how it is that being careful about development in the DTEs actually helps any of these people get treatment. Build some facilities, give people the option of cleaning up, then bulldoze the farkin' place. What? But some of them will die? Dude, if they don't clean up, they're all going to die. There is nothing whatsover to be gained by continuing to house vulnerable addicts in Canada's biggest crack house.

The neighbourhood is an unmitigated disaster and everyday that well intentioned people spend fighting to slow down changes in the area - changes that we all know are absolutely inevitable - is another day that DTES residents are kept living in third world squalor. This is not helping vulnerable people, it is hurting them.

[SpongeG]

I live near tinseltown and, while what is happening in the DTES is undeniably a tragedy, I don't believe the problem is poverty. The problem in the area is drug addiction and mental illness, often in combination. Poverty is the result of this problem, not the cause.

I'm not sure how it is that being careful about development in the DTEs actually helps any of these people get treatment. Build some facilities, give people the option of cleaning up, then bulldoze the farkin' place. What? But some of them will die? Dude, if they don't clean up, they're all going to die. There is nothing whatsover to be gained by continuing to house vulnerable addicts in Canada's biggest crack house.

The neighbourhood is an unmitigated disaster and everyday that well intentioned people spend fighting to slow down changes in the area - changes that we all know are absolutely inevitable - is another day that DTES residents are kept living in third world squalor. This is not helping vulnerable people, it is hurting them.

there is a whole industry built around the poor and those interests need to have the poor to survive

its messed up

[Jacques]

SO so true,

[hollywoodnorth]

there is a whole industry built around the poor and those interests need to have the poor to survive

its messed up

great point....sad point....true point.

[mathew]

there is a whole industry built around the poor and those interests need to have the poor to survive

its messed up

I'm confused – because it sounds like you are saying that the helping professions are capitalizing on the condition of DTES. Simply put there is no "industry" built around poverty in the DTES – the black/grey economy that exists to circulate drugs is self-regulated within the DTES community of users and a latent and very well documented condition of a port city. If you are in any way referencing private or government funded helping professions, then I think you misinterpret how symbiotic the conditions are. People who work with drug users and mentally ill people in the DTES are by no means well paid, and I can't see any corporate or independent businesses in the area that are in any way capitalizing on the poverty and addiction. Again the DTES is a result of climate and cultural conditions converging in a very loosely defined geographic area.

[mathew]

The neighbourhood is an unmitigated disaster and everyday that well intentioned people spend fighting to slow down changes in the area - changes that we all know are absolutely inevitable - is another day that DTES residents are kept living in third world squalor. This is not helping vulnerable people, it is hurting them.


I think many of the "well intentioned people" you mention are not, in fact, fighting development in DTES or trying to slow it down – but demanding development that is sensitive to the context and condition of DTES. Just like how if you wanted to build a residential tower in the West End you would still have heritage, site context and history, streetscape and massing considerations on top of zoning and integrating with the existing program. Often this does not happen in DTES simply because it is a lot less regulated due to the tenor of its inhabitants.

[jjjb]

I'm confused – because it sounds like you are saying that the helping professions are capitalizing on the condition of DTES. Simply put there is no "industry" built around poverty in the DTES – the black/grey economy that exists to circulate drugs is self-regulated within the DTES community of users and a latent and very well documented condition of a port city. If you are in any way referencing private or government funded helping professions, then I think you misinterpret how symbiotic the conditions are. People who work with drug users and mentally ill people in the DTES are by no means well paid, and I can't see and corporate or independent businesses in the area that are in any way capitalizing on the poverty and addiction. Again the DTES is a result of climate and cultural conditions converging in a very loosely defined geographic area.

Exactly. Also skook, I don't think anyone here is saying "slow down development". When I preach that development has to follow a balanced approach, I'm saying that should apply to the whole city.

With regards to the DTES specifically, keep in mind that social housing, by the way, is not used to house crackheads - that would be SRO hotels for the most part. I don't mind those going away actually, since they worsen the problem for their inhabitants and neighbours. However I find that they often get converted to luxury housing, which is swinging too far the other way and only help to homogenize the neigbourhood. For example, it's great that SFU is opening up downtown, but will itd students be able to afford living any closer to it than Strathcona? How about people who make something in the range of 40,000 to 45,000 a year?

One good example of a sensitive development that takes into account the context of the DTES is the new St-Paul's campus. Although you can't institutionalize people against their will, it will be a great first point of contact for those seeking help. Also saying that there are people profiting from the poor is entirely inaccurate, as pointed out by Mathew, as it basically amounts to saying that somehow the helping professions will be rendered useless because 100% of mental illness and drug use will magically be eradicated at some point.

[mathew]

I also just tried repeating "so sad, so true" to myself over and over and it didn't make me feel any less guilty to be a white male with a good job, an iPod and pure-bred dogs who lives in a condo in Gastown.

[jjjb]

I also just tried repeating "so sad, so true" to myself over and over and it didn't make me feel any less guilty to be a white male with a good job, an iPod and pure-bred dogs who lives in a condo.

We must be telepathically linked.

[cornholio]

:sly: Great thread but I cant help but think that something odd is going on. Maybe a case of split personality:shrug:
Or just a series of weird coincidences...no way thats impossible.
"We must be telepathicly linked:haha:
good one:tup:
:cheers: :cheers:

[mathew]

:sly: Great thread but I cant help but think that something odd is going on. Maybe a case of split personality:shrug:
Or just a series of weird coincidences...no way thats impossible.
"We must be telepathicly linked:haha:
good one:tup:
:cheers: :cheers:

We're roommates for a reason!

[crazyjoeda]

Why do all the poor people live in downtown?? They must be stupid.

Hmm, I have little education and very little money... I guess I should move downtown where 500sqf condos cost $400,000. That just make sense, plus all the entry level jobs that can get me out of poverty are in the dtes too.
What??? People want to develop this lot?? But this is my home I must own it cause I squat here. I guess I will go sleep in the mall. WTF!!!! The mall owner won't let me sleep here? THIS IS WAR ON THE POOR!!!!

Many of these homeless people could have decent paying jobs and a roof over their head if they spent even half their time trying to improve their lives instead of complaining that other people don't do enough for them. I know some people have problems and need help, but for the rest of the bums I say stop abusing drugs, move out of downtown! and get a job! You can rent a place for $600; even if you only make $10 you can make it work.

Excuse my rant. But every time I see the homeless protesting it makes me a bit upset. I have compassion, but I think some of them can help them selves.

[mathew]

Why do all the poor people live in downtown?? They must be stupid.

Hmm, I have little education and very little money... I guess I should move downtown where 500sqf condos cost $400,000. That just make sense, plus all the entry level jobs that can get me out of poverty are in the dtes too.
What??? People want to develop this lot?? But this is my home I must own it cause I squat here. I guess I will go sleep in the mall. WTF!!!! The mall owner won't let me sleep here? THIS IS WAR ON THE POOR!!!!

Many of these homeless people could have decent paying jobs and a roof over their head if they spent even half their time trying to improve their lives instead of complaining that other people don't do enough for them. I know some people have problems and need help, but for the rest of the bums I say stop abusing drugs, move out of downtown! and get a job! You can rent a place for $600; even if you only make $10 you can make it work.

Excuse my rant. But every time I see the homeless protesting it makes me a bit upset. I have compassion, but I think some of them can help them selves.

I don't think it's even possible to dignify this tripe with a reply...

[jjjb]

Why do all the poor people live in downtown?? They must be stupid.

Excuse my rant. But every time I see the homeless protesting it makes me a bit upset. I have compassion, but I think some of them can help them selves.

I'm glad you got it out of your system that you simply find poor people gross.

Let's use point-form just to keep it easy to understand:

-Vancouver is a small, young city. "Poor people" have been living in the Eastside and Oppenheimer for decades. It's only really now that the definition of "downtown" applies to the area again. Now that it's no longer hip to live in the suburbs, that Kitsilano has been pillaged and that the West End is saturated, people with money to burn are moving in. The poor aren't "moving in": nobody's marketing anything for them to move in. However, buildings that have been falling into disrepair for decades because no one else wanted them have become cheap housing.

-Again, let's make sure we all understand the difference between a low income person and a drug "abuser" (because it's so easy to just use drugs). The two groups often congregate in the same geographical area because of ostracization and the availability of social services. The dealers often don't even live in the neighbourhood but don't hesitate to profit from the captive audience. Moving on.

-OK, the reason we're all in this argument is that Mr. X was decrying the emptiness of the stupidest mall anywhere. My position was that it's not necessary for the economy to appear to be firing on all cylinders because it simply isn't. Lots of malls have vacant spaces outside of Vancouver. Not as many vacant spaces, but there aren't always waiting lists.

-Vancouver's stronger economy (compared to the rest of the country) is in large part the results of speculation. Look at Calgary now. If you want there to be a store in each of the space in the mall maybe you should think about who is actually going to be patronizing all of them. Can everyone commit to visiting the IKEA that some think is a good idea to have at Tinseltown several times a month?

-The reason for Tinseltown's failure is that it's a piece of **** empty shell built on valuable land, and that is SOLELY due to the developer not even bothering to seek profit more intelligently using the incentives offered by the city's planning dept. I don't even see it picking up ever as commercial space (maybe besides the ground floor) to be honest: the city is not gonna be populated enough to accommodate that much retail when there's better retail a Skytrain station away.

[bugsy]

Why do all the poor people live in downtown?? They must be stupid.

Hmm, I have little education and very little money... I guess I should move downtown where 500sqf condos cost $400,000. That just make sense, plus all the entry level jobs that can get me out of poverty are in the dtes too.
What??? People want to develop this lot?? But this is my home I must own it cause I squat here. I guess I will go sleep in the mall. WTF!!!! The mall owner won't let me sleep here? THIS IS WAR ON THE POOR!!!!

Many of these homeless people could have decent paying jobs and a roof over their head if they spent even half their time trying to improve their lives instead of complaining that other people don't do enough for them. I know some people have problems and need help, but for the rest of the bums I say stop abusing drugs, move out of downtown! and get a job! You can rent a place for $600; even if you only make $10 you can make it work.

Excuse my rant. But every time I see the homeless protesting it makes me a bit upset. I have compassion, but I think some of them can help them selves.

Amen to that.
HAY GUYS LETS MOVE INTO EXPENSIVE REAL ESTATE AND DEMAND FREE RENT. IT'S THE TAXPAYER'S RESPONSIBILITY PAY MY WAY FOREVER AMIRITE? NO HOMES NO GAMES! BAWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/Bakenekojin8/bawww.png

[jjjb]

Amen to that.
HAY GUYS LETS MOVE INTO EXPENSIVE REAL ESTATE AND DEMAND FREE RENT. IT'S THE TAXPAYER'S RESPONSIBILITY PAY MY WAY FOREVER AMIRITE? NO HOMES NO GAMES! BAWWWWWWWWWWWWW!


OK that's a bit ignorant. There seem to be people who get their news only when something's shiny or loud enough to get their attention. The media in this city is overrun with flashy manipulative marketing for over inflated real estate on one hand, and, at the other end of the spectrum, the antics of opportunistic idiots like the APC who simply don't want to work and make a big stink about it because it's cooler than admitting that you're from a rich family. If you read anything besides 24 you'd have a better idea of what is actually happening.

There are few genuinely low-income people moving into the downtown core at this point. If anything they want to get out. That shouldn't be a problem because they are being displaced by assholes as we speak, and I suppose we have to be realistic and accept that.

There is activism by some of the area's hard-working-yet-less-fortunate residents to counter that displacement and good on them. There's room for everybody because like it or not, society does and should just work that way. Move to the states and see what you get in exchange for lower taxes.

Even though I was aware that there was quite a contingent of real estate yahoos on this forum in addition to urban planning insiders/enthusiasts, I must say I'm dismayed by how quickly things can resemble the Discover Vancouver Forum around here. Maybe I'll just go back to paying my taxes and accept that quality of life just goes to the highest bidder.

[SpongeG]

there was a really excellent show on the knowledge network once that looked into how the DTES came about - it was very interesting and a lot of it was related to the port - the area around the port has always been seedy and will probably always be and the same thing exists with other cities that have ports

it went through the history of vancouver - like the old opium dens, the hookers, the drug dealers, etc etc and how we are at where are today

[jjjb]

it went through the history of vancouver - like the old opium dens, the hookers, the drug dealers, etc etc and how we are at where are today

Yeah, and chances are unless solutions that are both realistic and sustainable are implemented, it will keep happening.

People who are only here to monetize on the Olympics will move on to the next boomtown, and even if those Texas Rangers were to get guns and line up the junkies, more of them would keep coming.

[jjjb]

I should also raise this question: do you think the "world" gives a shit if we have an "ugly" neighbourhood to show them during the Olympics? Probably not. They've had the Olympics closer to even bigger dumps (aren't the next ones happening in Beijing?) and I don't think anyone really made a big deal about bums. Unless you live in a fantasy world you've seen some before. Just look at where they built the stadium in Montreal - a working class neighbourhood that stretches for 30 blocks. I asked my dad, who was a journalist back then, and he said that everyone had a great time.

Then again, we could show everyone our innovative urban planning philosophies at work.

[dreambrother808]

I don't think it's even possible to dignify this tripe with a reply...

The fact is that many people feel the same way as the person you're condescending to, even many low to mid-income people who struggle to get by in Vancouver. They see themselves working hard to improve their lives and don't appreciate constantly being harassed by those who don't seem to be doing the same. Issues of personal responsibility ARE important and cannot be shut out of the equation. Yes, developers and moneyed interests screw the rest of us over but that doesn't change the fact that when you also screw yourself over you can't really blame everyone else for that. You can get ahead in this city. You can overcome poverty, etc. If you choose to work your way out of it. I know this because I am one of those people. I have even been homelessness. In the meantime, I haven't expected to be able to live in one of nicest areas of the city with some of its greatest potential. That's just a fact of life. It is not unfair. My life is decent now and will continue to prosper because of the decisions I make, because I learned to be independent and take care of myself, period.

[SFUVancouver]

One of the biggest factors in the decline of the neighbourhood was the curtailing of seasonal labour in the resource sector, period. Many of the people who have historically lived in the DTES worked summers in mines, logging camps, in factories, etc. In the summer the now-SRO hotels hosted tourists and recent immigrants to the city while in the winter off season they were inexpensive short-term housing to the seasonal workers who made their way back to the city after their jobs ended.

Also, over time the historic economic engine of the city, the port, gradually reduced the amount of unskilled labour it needed as break bulk gave way to containerization and mechanization shed jobs. The community of fundamentally poor labourers who lived in the DTES seasonally slowly came to live there permanently.

Another major, major factor was the termination of the streetcar lines and the westward migration of the CBD that began in earnest in the early 60s. This displaced a huge number of 'regular' people from the DTES. I read once that the cessation of streetcar service along Hastings in 1955, and later the interurban in 1958, led to a precipitous 10,000 person decrease in the daily number of pedestrians in the area. Things held on okay in the 60s and 70s but in the 80s heroin came screaming into town.

Then came crack.

With the local economic engine all but gone, deinstitutionalized mental health service, deteriorating welfare rates, and the pestilence of crack running rampant things dramatically fell apart in the late 1990s.

...which was about the time International Village opened up.

What's the mantra of real estate? Location, location, location. Don't forget timing.

[jjjb]

One of the biggest factors in the decline of the neighbourhood was the decline of seasonal labour in the resource sector, period. Many of the people who have historically lived in the DTES worked summers in mines, logging camps, in factories, etc. In the summer the now-SRO hotels hosted tourists and recent immigrants to the city while in the winter off season they were inexpensive short-term housing to the seasonal workers who made their way back to the city after their jobs ended.

Also, over time the historic economic engine of the city, the port, gradually reduced the amount of unskilled labour it needed as break bulk gave way to containerization and mechanization shed jobs. The community of fundamentally poor labourers who lived in the DTES seasonally slowly came to live their permanently.

Another major, major factor was the termination of the streetcar lines and the westward migration of the CBD that began in earnest in the early 60s. This displaced a huge number of 'regular' people from the DTES. I read once that the cessation of streetcar service along Hastings in 1955, and later the interurban in 1958, led to a precipitous 10,000 person decrease in the daily number of pedestrians in the area. Things held on okay in the 60s and 70s but in the 80s heroin came screaming into town.

Then came crack.

With the local economic engine all but gone, deinstitutionalized mental health service, deteriorating welfare rates, and the pestilence of crack running rampant things dramatically fell apart in the late 1990s.

...which was about the time International Village opened up.

What's the mantra of real estate? Location, location, location. Timing is an issue too.

Thank you for shining a light. I think I love you.

[mathew]

The fact is that many people feel the same way as the person you're condescending to, even many low to mid-income people who struggle to get by in Vancouver. They see themselves working hard to improve their lives and don't appreciate constantly being harassed by those who don't seem to be doing the same. Issues of personal responsibility ARE important and cannot be shut out of the equation. Yes, developers and moneyed interests screw the rest of us over but that doesn't change the fact that when you also screw yourself over you can't really blame everyone else for that. You can get ahead in this city. You can overcome poverty, etc. If you choose to work your way out of it. I know this because I am one of those people. I have even been homelessness. In the meantime, I haven't expected to be able to live in one of nicest areas of the city with some of its greatest potential. That's just a fact of life. It is not unfair. My life is decent now and will continue to prosper because of the decisions I make, because I learned to be independent and take care of myself, period.

Again, I think I'm being vastly misinterpreted. I am pro-responsible development, do not glamorize or politicize the DTES; I do, however, think that simplistic and reductionist approaches to developing an area have the propensity to harm. There are intelligent and functional ways to develop urban areas that are respectful of the context and moreover use the context to push for mixed-use and community based development programs. If you reread my last 5 posts, nowhere will you see anywhere an expression of value-based or political sentiment regarding the DTES, only a speculative dialog suggesting that a meaningful program of development that is inclusive and mixed-use will better make use of Vancouver's zoning and density policies and initiatives and ultimately prove more fruitful for both developer and community.

[leftside]

I also just tried repeating "so sad, so true" to myself over and over and it didn't make me feel any less guilty to be a white male with a good job, an iPod and pure-bred dogs who lives in a condo in Gastown.
If you went to school, worked hard and got yourself a decent job then you deserve the iPod and condo. If you dropped out of school because it was "cool" and started doing hard drugs because it was a "good laugh" and are now homeless and believe the world owes you "a favour" then you also deserve what you have. Perhaps you should feel a little guilty about keeping dogs in a condo, but that's another matter...

> deinstitutionalized mental health service
An absolute crime. In years to come we will look back on our governments and wonder how they allowed the most vulnerable members of society to live in an area where they are easily preyed upon. I don't have sympathy for the people who can get a job, but choose not to. Yes, I do have sympathy for the mentally insane.

> Issues of personal responsibility ARE important and
> cannot be shut out of the equation
Agreed. The state can only do so much. You also need to help yourself. The state CAN help by distributing the social services through-out the city though. It is too easy for an addict to get free food, cheap shelter and cheap drugs all in one block.

> However I find that they (SRO's) often get converted to luxury housing,
How many previously occupied SRO's have been converted to luxury housing?

Regarding Tinsletown... thanks for all the updates. In the last 4 years I have seen a lot more foot traffic (of "regular" people) around Tinsletown and have definitely seen that area improved with the new condo's. The crack addicts and other junkies are still there, but they are starting to be outnumbered. It will be interesting to see how long they hang around once the Woodwards is complete.

[dreambrother808]

If you went to school, worked hard and got yourself a decent job then you deserve the iPod and condo. If you dropped out of school because it was "cool" and started doing hard drugs because it was a "good laugh" and are now homeless and believe the world owes you "a favour" then you also deserve what you have.

I think this is a bit of a simplification. People don't just drop out of school and get into hard drugs because it is "cool" or "fun". There are many reasons and anytime spent amongst addicts telling their stories would quickly school you otherwise. Some people have it harder than others and/or are less capable of dealing with the difficulties of life. These people need to learn to care about themselves and make more responsible choices but they also need some compassion and understanding for how they got there in the first place. This does not mean a free ride. It means being aware of all the factors involved and creating a balanced approach from that awareness.

[bugsy]

there is a whole industry built around the poor and those interests need to have the poor to survive

its messed up

Indeed. Having seen first hand the funding models for these so-called "non-profit societies" at work (at the federal government level anyways), it's disturbing how many of them have a vested interest in seeing that nothing is changed or improved about the neighborhood in any way. The non-profits and special interest advocacy groups are part of the problem, and don't want anyone to solve it. Poverty pimp much?

[SFUVancouver]

You know I strongly disagree with the assertion that non-profits and special interest advocacy groups don't want anyone to solve the problems of the DTES/poverty/addiction/etc. To me that is as absurd as saying doctors love it when people get sick because it keeps them employed.

I believe that virtually without exception the people who work and volunteer with such groups are staggeringly competent, kind, and devoted to helping people. They are also abundantly aware of the magnitude of the problems that stalk the DTES and lobby for political attention, resources, and policy changes that will mitigate or solve the problems that affect their area of experience and outreach. I believe there is a misconception that this lobbying reflects a desire to maximize funding for the people who work at the non-profits and advocacy groups when instead I think it reflects an understanding of the good said funding can achieve and wouldn't we all like things to improve? I don't see this as being much different from the methodology of the police department when it annually requests funding from Council.

I do think that when so little has perceivably changed despite all of the services that are funded and offered in the DTES we need to evaluate whether more money to deliver services in the same way is the only avenue we should pursue. I don't think the total cost of the endemic poverty, addiction, and illness of the DTES can ever be fully calculated but my hunch is that it is staggering and is borne by all of us in many different ways.

When it comes to homelessness and addiction I think the best money is spent on progressive housing and treatment centres like the one Union Gospel Mission is building. The ground floor is a kitchen and nightly shelter. The second floor is an addiction treatment centre where they commit themselves for a period of weeks or months to clean up. The third floor is supervised independant living, basically housing for the hard-to-house, and the fourth floor is medium-term (1-2 yrs), small suite, affordable rental housing with priority given to those who have "moved up" the building as they clean themselves up. The top floor are offices for the building.

Change the ground floor to retail and this type of building could fit in anywhere, especially when it is built to a high architectural standard with good quality, durable materials.

My two cents.

[jjjb]

> However I find that they (SRO's) often get converted to luxury housing,
How many previously occupied SRO's have been converted to luxury housing?



Let's see what happens to the Dominion and Paris Block...

[leftside]

People don't just drop out of school and get into hard drugs because it is "cool" or "fun".
Plenty of people I know did. But, I do appreciate your point. There is a middle-ground where some people (who are not mentally insane) have had a very sad life and do require help to get their feet back on the ground again. There are also others who are lost causes and no matter what you do to help will still be sticking needles in their arms.


> You know I strongly disagree with the assertion that non-profits and
> special interest advocacy groups don't want anyone to solve the
> problems of the DTES/poverty/addiction/etc.
A lot of their "solutions" are to throw money at the poor, give them free housing and keep the DTES the way it is but with yet more facilities. They fail to realize that the only way to improve the DTES is to develop new housing for people with some money which will in turn attract new businesses. Would you want to open a business that is surrounded with meth clinics and homeless shelters? Some of the non-profits are well meaning, but their solutions are completely wrong. A bit like when the NDP closed most of Riverview and put the mentally insane onto the streets of the DTES. Well meaning, but complete disaster.

> so little has perceivably changed despite all of the
> services that are funded and offered in the DTES
It's been a disaster. If you are down on your luck and have a little drug problem where are you going to go? To be with like minded people and to where the social services are. Then a lot of them enter a downward spiral. The social services, rather than helping people, just atract them and drag them into a hole where cheap drugs are readily available. It would be interesting to see the stats of what happens to people once they arrive in the DTES.

> Let's see what happens to the Dominion and Paris Block...
Would that currently be zero SRO conversions? I don't think Paris Block was previously an SRO hotel. The only conversions I've seen are of old warehouses or derelict buildings. I see lots of new social housing being built in the DTES. Columbia/Main and the Pennsylvania Hotel at Carrall and Hastings spring to mind. Shame those buildings couldn't have at least been mixed use.

[mathew]

A lot of their "solutions" are to throw money at the poor, give them free housing and keep the DTES the way it is but with yet more facilities. They fail to realize that the only way to improve the DTES is to develop new housing for people with some money which will in turn attract new businesses. Would you want to open a business that is surrounded with meth clinics and homeless shelters?

I agree, in part, with the sentiment – but basic to the reality of displacement is the fact that no matter the intention or action of development – there is still a physical number of people that exist; it's analogous to this: when you step into a bath full of water, your volume is displaced in units of water and this is evidenced by the water spilling over to accommodate your mass – and despite the tenor or nature of development, short of eliminating the physical number of residents, there will only be geographical shift. Whether or not market housing for average income-earners is developed, whether new business is attracted is moot – there exists a significant population of people that aren't going anywhere; the DTES is, in fact, migrating east, and the only certain fact is that the indigent population will continue to shift up the Hastings Corridor. No one is "throwing money at the poor" and aid workers in the DTES are simply trying to remedy a pre-existing condition. The assertion that aid and social services are maintaining the problem is absurd, the problem is large enough in nature to dictate need for said services in order to simply prevent loss of life – which, again, is a direct result of Canadian Human Rights Law and not some presumed corporate capitalization on suffering (which by any informed account is a very first-year poli-sci take on a much more complex and varied condition.)

[mathew]

> Let's see what happens to the Dominion and Paris Block...
Would that currently be zero SRO conversions? I don't think Paris Block was previously an SRO hotel. The only conversions I've seen are of old warehouses or derelict buildings. I see lots of new social housing being built in the DTES. Columbia/Main and the Pennsylvania Hotel at Carrall and Hastings spring to mind. Shame those buildings couldn't have at least been mixed use.

That would "currently" be three SRO conversions: one for the Dominion and two (pending rezoning) for Paris block.

[jjjb]

Yeah, the Paris Block is being extended into new phases.

Terminal and Garage have been under some form of development since I moved here last year, so I actually don't know what they were before. And in my dealings with Georgia Laine, it was made obvious that their plans for all their new acquisitions were to convert "when the time is right".

Woodwards and the SFU building are in themselves mixed use enough to justify two other isolated social housing devs not being mixed use for now, although yes that would be ideal.

[Rusty Gull]

Again, I think I'm being vastly misinterpreted. I am pro-responsible development, do not glamorize or politicize the DTES; I do, however, think that simplistic and reductionist approaches to developing an area have the propensity to harm. There are intelligent and functional ways to develop urban areas that are respectful of the context and moreover use the context to push for mixed-use and community based development programs.

I think you're making a lot of good sense, but the reactionary response here is also understandable.

That's because for so many years we've seen worthwhile project after project derailed by the APC and like-minded groups. (and it's worth noting that these groups are often fronted by well-off activists and college students, not the downtrodden DTES folks they claim to represent).

Case in point: The Whitecaps soccer stadium. I mean, here you have a privately financed athletics and cultural facility that would add some much-needed life to a part of the waterfront that is currently dead, not to mention a huge injection of excitement into our professional and amateur sports scene... and the response from the usual suspects is... "This is an attack on the poor".

[jlousa]

I don't beleive that Paris block was an SRO (not postive), and it certainly wasn't sold as luxury condos, while not cheap they are just run of the mill lofts.

I think there is some truth on the DTES being an industry, while the likes of Union Gospel/Salvation army are not profitting from the poor and would rather there be no one to help, there are some that depend on the poor for their existance, Would Dera get as much money/publicity as they do not w/o the current sitution? I truely beleive as do others that while they aren't responsible for the situation, that they would prefer it to remain status quo or at least not go away completely. Dera was a great organization when it was founded, it's just changed it's focus and mandate in recent years.

Regardless change is evitable, and it's coming, they should be working to shape the changes instead of trying to stop them. Beleive it or not developers aren't looking at bulldozing the place and pushing everyone out as some would believe. They are willing to work with the people and create a better place, sure the profit needs to be there as well, but developers aren't as greedy as some beleive.

I also beleive we've tried the centralized approach (all services in one area) for long enougth to learn it hasn't worked, it has created the same ghetto feel that has been repeated countless times in other cities, it is time to try something different, hence the new approach of decentralized services spread across the region. Will it work? I don't know, but it's worth a shot.

[jjjb]

Regardless change is evitable, and it's coming, they should be working to shape the changes instead of trying to stop them. Beleive it or not developers aren't looking at bulldozing the place and pushing everyone out as some would believe. They are willing to work with the people and create a better place, sure the profit needs to be there as well, but developers aren't as greedy as some beleive.

I think that's what we've been saying all along.

You make a good point about decentralizing the services, but I think that is also happening, although not at pace that keeps up with the development. A good starting point is the new St-Paul campus at Main Street Station. There was also talk of a mental health facility on Hastings (by Hastings Sunrise), but I can't find any status updates on that.

[mathew]

\Beleive it or not developers aren't looking at bulldozing the place and pushing everyone out as some would believe. They are willing to work with the people and create a better place, sure the profit needs to be there as well, but developers aren't as greedy as some beleive.[sic]

It's not a matter of believing – developers like Westbank have proven time and again to be responsible and conscious. Saying that development needs to be context-specific and sensitive to ever-evolving cultural and contextual program needs in no way posits that developers are greedy. Developers can be bullheaded, and developers can also be respectful, innovative and aware. This has been, for the most part a conversation about the types of developers that seem to be eager to move in on the DTES.

[jlousa]

I'm going to play devil's advocate even and even go so far as to argue that Tinseltown has been successful. It has played a small part in improving that area. It is certainly better having the mall there then empty lots or SROs. That's not to say the mall couldn't have been better used but it certainly isn't terrible. It has helped to sell condos and bring people into the area that normally wouldn't visit.

[jjjb]

I'm going to play devil's advocate even and even go so far as to argue that Tinseltown has been successful. It has played a small part in improving that area. It is certainly better having the mall there then empty lots or SROs. That's not to say the mall couldn't have been better used but it certainly isn't terrible. It has helped to sell condos and bring people into the area that normally wouldn't visit.

Meaning of "playing the devil's advocate": to pretend to be against an idea or plan which a lot of people support in order to make people discuss it in more detail and think about it more carefully.

[SpongeG]

Yeah, and chances are unless solutions that are both realistic and sustainable are implemented, it will keep happening.

People who are only here to monetize on the Olympics will move on to the next boomtown, and even if those Texas Rangers were to get guns and line up the junkies, more of them would keep coming.

yah it was basically saying the DTES has always been like it is today from the early days of Vancouver or that element has always existed in some form/part of the city since the beginning so eliminating it will not be easy

[Jacques]

http://www.parisblock.com/floorplans.html

Paris Block on hasting is certainly no SRO, the Garage and Terminus are high end loft, top floor 970sq is over a million dollars, the city owns the the derelict building south of blood alley, which I am sure is up to trade with Salient group http://www.thesalientgroup.com/residential.html
has eyed the site for a while and will surely get their hands on it sooner than later, as for Bonita, it is shutting down when the lease is over, its bound to be turned onto high end loft, I have already received plans from city hall., the blood alley it too be converted into bistro on the first floor and cafes and resto boutique if all goes to their plans.
From word of mouth around here in Gastown is that the reason for many of the delays in construction is due in part to the lack of manpower for the projects and the lame attitude of city hall in approving high density development on Hasting corridor, but once the WW is completed the Concord Pacific intends to go full steam with their ventures, boot that Sullivan out of there and hope we can get DTES on track with better management of the city east side core, btw: the mental health building renovation at the old detention centre between Powell and Cordova is still a go, its just taking more time.

[jjjb]

There's a second phase to Paris block that isn't marketed yet and yes to all appearances that was SROs.

[djh]

as for Bonita, it is shutting down when the lease is over, its bound to be turned onto high end loft, I have already received plans from city hall.

WHA?! Boneta is shutting down?! It's not even been open a year yet, and it's considered a "success story"! Is that just a rumour you heard, or do you have that on authority? Wasn't it you or jjjb saying the other day that it is run by "the Mafia"?

I was planning on going there this week...are you sure on what you're saying?

[jjjb]

WHA?! Boneta is shutting down?! It's not even been open a year yet, and it's considered a "success story"! Is that just a rumour you heard, or do you have that on authority? Wasn't it you or jjjb saying the other day that it is run by "the Mafia"?

I was planning on going there this week...are you sure on what you're saying?

Well I'm not sure that it's run by the Mafia per se, but have you seen the owners?

http://guestofaguest.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/guido_collage_12408.jpg

Anyways, I read in the paper that it is their first restaurant so they are trying out their formula in a limited time capacity (plus I'm sure the space is virutally free). So expect them to come back bigger, more overpriced, and more tan than ever!

[Jacques]

WHA?! Boneta is shutting down?! It's not even been open a year yet, and it's considered a "success story"! Is that just a rumour you heard, or do you have that on authority? Wasn't it you or jjjb saying the other day that it is run by "the Mafia"?

I was planning on going there this week...are you sure on what you're saying?

City of Vancouver Merrick architecture
265 Carrall development application number DE410844
has been submitted for final review, request amendment to heights restriction and re-designed the back entrance of garage from the north side, plan under re-consideration, but most likely it will be accepted.
Bonita has stated that they had signed a one year lease on the site they now occupy, once the lease is over and by all account unless there is a delay in the final design of that building and the adjacent abandon complex, they will close, that being said they are still in operation, so the food is good the price is fine the atmosphere is awesome when its quiet, but very noisy late in the day, so don't get all in heels about its foreseeable future, just have a good time.
As for the Paris block how can you equate the second phase of its project as SRO, fro what I am told they are no SRO to be included in that project , I may be wrong, but no words out its no sro, just high end loft, btw did you know that the price is quite steep for my liking, I live in 670sq loft that cost 1/3 off what they would give me today for 500sq.
confused, help me here, maybe you know more about all the Hasting corridor project, give us the scoop, I read more here about the outcome of Cordova and Hasting then I would at city hall.
Cheer mate

[Jacques]

Well I'm not sure that it's run by the Mafia per se, but have you seen the owners?

http://guestofaguest.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/guido_collage_12408.jpg

Anyways, I read in the paper that it is their first restaurant so they are trying out their formula in a limited time capacity (plus I'm sure the space is virutally free). So expect them to come back bigger, more overpriced, and more tan than ever!

scary OMG, what is this truly be very very afraid OMG
forgive me for asking but are they tan from being burned at the Tanning salon one minute spray and what's with that dude in the white Vshirt, Arnold IM BACK

[Skook]

Yes, some variant of the DTES has always existed, but it was nothing like it is today. I spent a very interesting afternoon recently in the Empress hotel bar speaking to some of the old timers dislocated by dying seasonal industries - the guys who are always brought up in these debates, justly, as deserving folks who could use help with social housing, etc. To my surprise, they hated living among the drug addicts even more than I do, had absolutely no sympathy for them, and no interest in preserving the neighbourhood. Those who could move away have already done so - they only return to visit their favorite watering holes.

Anyhow, my point remains that people are confusing poverty with drug addiction. The only problem here is the drug addicts. Social housing for old loggers doesn't bother anybody and is not the cause of the decline of the neighbourhood. Social housing is a perhaps viable as a solution to poverty, but, I repeat, the problem here is not poverty - it is addiction.

And for an addict, the neighbourhood itself IS THE PROBLEM. There is no hope of getting clean while living in the nations crack den. Zero. Therefore, as contrary to logic as it might seem, the best solution to the drug problem is to drastically change the neighbourhood, and soon. If people are forced out of third world ghetto housing and have to go live somewhere else - anywhere else - even on the streets in another neighbourhood, they will be better off than they are today, because the DTES itself reinforces and perpetuates their drug problems. The solution to poverty might well be social housing and sensitive development, but the only thing that will even make a dent in the drug problem is to destroy the DTES ASAP. Even treatment facilities are useless as long as people continue to live in a shooting gallery. You have to shut the place down - the NEIGHBOURHOOD IS THE PROBLEM - any other solution is doomed to failure (because those other solutions are treating poverty, not addiction, and only serve to enable the addicts).

[jjjb]

As for the Paris block how can you equate the second phase of its project as SRO, fro what I am told they are no SRO to be included in that project , I may be wrong, but no words out its no sro, just high end loft, btw did you know that the price is quite steep for my liking, I live in 670sq loft that cost 1/3 off what they would give me today for 500sq.
confused, help me here, maybe you know more about all the Hasting corridor project, give us the scoop, I read more here about the outcome of Cordova and Hasting then I would at city hall.
Cheer mate

Someone who has access to those things (although I could just walk over there and look at the building) should run a check on 53 W Hastings. I got the info that it was entering phase 2 from David Eby's blog (and I know he tends to overreact and spin things, but the fact is the permit application has been filed):

The Paris Block, a market housing development in the zero block of Hastings Street East, currently has a Development Permit application before the City of Vancouver to expand to the site next door at 53 East Hastings Street.

The application, DE411639, proposes that the current Paris Block development be expanded to include another 6 storey addition to the Paris Block consisting of retail at grade, mezzanine, 16 live/work units on levels 2 to 6, an at grade parking garage off the lane and common and private roof decks.

The Paris Block, despite being located in Vancouver's traditionally lowest income neighbourhood, has never included any social housing or community amenities in its plans. The City of Vancouver ostensibly has a 20% affordable housing minimum; however, they may not require that minimum in this development.

[jlousa]

Not sure who those guys are but they are not the owners of Bonita, neither is the Mafia, it's owned by a couple of guys that have worked in the local industry for years, they have been getting flack for leaching alot of staff from some of the staples in Vancouver cuisine . The story with Bonita was the building was scheduled to be renovated and they were only granted a 1year lease. The owners of Bonita decided to go ahead anyways, turns out they've been alot more successful then they expected. Anyways there appears to have been a change of plans and their lease will be renewed, so as for now they will not be moving as originally planned. It's a great place, I raved about it the first time I went there in one of my older posts. Menu changes weekly so check the menu before you head over to make sure it's what you're feeling like.

Here's a quick bio on the place.

The long anticipated first restaurant by the Bonobo Entertainment Group�s Neil Ingram (ex Lumiere, currently La Buca), Andre McGillivray (ex Chambar, Lumiere, Le Croc, currently Chill Winston), and Mark Brand (ex Chambar). The location is a beauty - 1 West Cordova Street - in the old One Restaurant & Lounge space. The name, Boneta, is Mark Brand�s mother�s name (cue the �awww�). The chef will be Jeremie Bastien, formerly the sous chef at Lumiere.

[Hed Kandi]

Well I'm not sure that it's run by the Mafia per se, but have you seen the owners?

http://guestofaguest.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/guido_collage_12408.jpg

Anyways, I read in the paper that it is their first restaurant so they are trying out their formula in a limited time capacity (plus I'm sure the space is virutally free). So expect them to come back bigger, more overpriced, and more tan than ever!

Britney Spears back-up dancers?

[jjjb]

OF COURSE those aren't the owners of BONETA-with-an-E, and of course they aren't with the Mafia, but they are a great example of just the same old story: It's named after my mom (aaaaaaawwww) and we don't mind stealing staff from every body else to make our mark, and we'll make you feel rich by having some hired valet company park your car for you. How genuine.

Nothing new or interesting.

[jlousa]

Why the need to try and defame them then? If you don't like the place that's fine but I don't see the point of false rumours. Also Paris Block phase 1+2 were not SRO's and will not be SROs. Most of the people on this board are fans of the Salient group as they have done some remarkable work.

[jjjb]

Why the need to try and defame them then? If you don't like the place that's fine but I don't see the point of false rumours. Also Paris Block phase 1+2 were not SRO's and will not be SROs. Most of the people on this board are fans of the Salient group as they have done some remarkable work.

Okay, it was a JOKE. As if anybody thought that was serious...

I don't not like the place, I don't care much for it. I think it's just a harbinger of just more of the same bland pap from like the same three restaurant-owner circle-jerk that's just gonna take over your mind and your wallet.

Thanks for confirming about Paris Phase 2, but where do you get that "MOST" of the people on this board are fans of Salient? Why do you even want to live in this neighbourhood if it's got more problems than you can handle? They build pretty condos in clean neighbourhoods.

[djh]

I think when people talk too much they inevitably put their foot in their mouth. The last few posts you made have just drained your credibility with me. Sorry dude.

[jjjb]

I think when people talk too much they inevitably put their foot in their mouth. The last few posts you made have just drained your credibility with me. Sorry dude.

I'm sorry some restaurant was my downfall, but I guess I'll step back.

[leftside]

http://www.parisblock.com/floorplans.html

I have already received plans from city hall., the blood alley it too be converted into bistro on the first floor and cafes and resto boutique if all goes to their plans.
but once the WW is completed the Concord Pacific intends to go full steam with their ventures
That would be fantastic. You'd need to get rid of the crackheads that currently live there and who have turned Cordova St. into a shanty town.

I'm a big fan of Salient. Check the Salient site. They have a lot of plans for this area. I wish more developers like them were investing in the neighbourhood.

> The Paris Block, a market housing development in the zero block
> of Hastings Street East, currently has a Development Permit application
> before the City of Vancouver to expand to the site next door at
> 53 East Hastings Street.
That's good news.

Skook, agree 100% with your post.

What's the big problem with SRO conversions? The only problem I see is that there haven't actually been any (wel maybe one or two). I'd like to see a LOT more. The current residents can move to the newer, improved social housing that will be coming online in the next few years.

[jjjb]

That would be fantastic. You'd need to get rid of the crackheads that currently live there and who have turned Cordova St. into a shanty town.

I'm a big fan of Salient. Check the Salient site. They have a lot of plans for this area. I wish more developers like them were investing in the neighbourhood.


They do make a higher quality product than say Concord, and they do seem to have more of a feel for the neighbourhood with the smaller footprint and all, but I think I was misunderstood as someone who says "crackheads forever" and "development bad" when I was just saying that for some reason it looks like mostly, development and new retail takes the high-end luxury route instead of coming up with more variety: like a scheme that encompasses housing and retail that appeals to the people who are living here now and later. It doesn't even have to be social housing: if a developer commits to building moderately-priced rental housing for people who make something like 40,000 a year, the can get a rezoning that can bring them greater density and in turn more profit. It doesn't make any more economic sense to price everyone but the very rich out of the area.

[giallo]

Good god!

Did you get those pictures from the 'Stop pretty boys' facebook group? A friend sent me an invite and I spent the better part of an hour dying with laughter. How can anyone actually think spray-on tans are cool?

[jjjb]

^Good god!

Did you get those pictures from the 'Stop pretty boys' facebook group? A friend sent me an invite and I spent the better part of an hour dying with laughter. How can anyone actually think spray-on tans are cool?

No, it was actually some internet meme that's been going around these past few days. It does illustrate the total ditch that the Meatpacking district has become in the last few years. Hopefully Gastown doesn't meet the same fate.

[Jacques]

Quote:
The Paris Block, a market housing development in the zero block of Hastings Street East, currently has a Development Permit application before the City of Vancouver to expand to the site next door at 53 East Hastings Street.

The application, DE411639, proposes that the current Paris Block development be expanded to include another 6 storey addition to the Paris Block consisting of retail at grade, mezzanine, 16 live/work units on levels 2 to 6, an at grade parking garage off the lane and common and private roof decks.

The Paris Block, despite being located in Vancouver's traditionally lowest income neighbourhood, has never included any social housing or community amenities in its plans. The City of Vancouver ostensibly has a 20% affordable housing minimum; however, they may not require that minimum in this development.

exactly my point, once its built see if there is any SRO, there?
SRO does mean: single room occupancy n'est ce pas!

[newflyer]

Well I'm not sure that it's run by the Mafia per se, but have you seen the owners?

http://guestofaguest.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/guido_collage_12408.jpg

Anyways, I read in the paper that it is their first restaurant so they are trying out their formula in a limited time capacity (plus I'm sure the space is virutally free). So expect them to come back bigger, more overpriced, and more tan than ever!

LOL ... who let the freaks out?

I'm not sure what they think they look like ... but it sure isn't what I have in mind. Please give up the orange spray guys ... you look like Ernie look a likes.

When you say they own this place (which I have never seen in my life) ... do you mean "own" as in bussing tables... or parking cars?

Sorry .. but those are among the funniest pictures I've seen in a while.

[jjjb]

Quote:

The Paris Block, despite being located in Vancouver's traditionally lowest income neighbourhood, has never included any social housing or community amenities in its plans. The City of Vancouver ostensibly has a 20% affordable housing minimum; however, they may not require that minimum in this development.



That 20% policy is too recent for that permit application to be subject to it.

[jjjb]

LOL ... who let the freaks out?

I'm not sure what they think they look like ... but it sure isn't what I have in mind. Please give up the orange spray guys ... you look like Ernie look a likes.

When you say they own this place (which I have never seen in my life) ... do you mean "own" as in bussing tables... or parking parks?

Sorry .. but those are among the funniest pictures I've seen in a while.

Read up - that was just me playing a prank.

[newflyer]

Read up - that was just me playing a prank.

I know... but man I couldn't resist laughing at those pics. Where did you dig up those gems? :D

Anyways thats for the laugh.