Tolls urged for main highways

[DC83]

Report says Red Hill expressway, Linc could offset transit costs

January 22, 2008
Stories by Dana Brown
The Hamilton Spectator
(Jan 22, 2008)

Drivers should be forking over extra cash to use some main highways, including the Red Hill Valley Expressway and the Linc, according to a new study.

The report, commissioned by the Residential and Civil Construction Alliance of Ontario, examines ways to pay for transit and transportation in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area.

One recommendation is the implementation of tolls on major highways, including the 400 series.

Harry Kitchen, the Trent University economics professor who wrote the report, says fixing environmental damage, improving infrastructure and encouraging smart growth and intensification will be expensive.

"Basically my argument is that this is the best way ... to charge the users for those services, as opposed to charging everybody when it's only a few who use it," Kitchen says.

Among its eight recommendations are an extra fuel tax and the need for a regional governing body to make decisions about the changes.

It recommends the body should be set up along the same lines as Metrolinx, formerly the Greater Toronto Transportation Authority.

Metrolinx chair Rob MacIsaac isn't ruling out the possibility that the body could one day hold such a role in the expanded region.

"We are still a reasonably new Crown corporation and I think in the fullness of time, we may end up where the professor is suggesting," he said, "but we're not quite there yet."

McMaster professor Pavlos Kanaroglou, an urban transportation expert, says that simply charging tolls won't solve the problem of having so many drivers on the road.

He said an alternative, such as suitable public transit system, is needed. Otherwise, those who are car-dependent will keep using their vehicles and it will just be more expensive for them.

"You are just punishing them for (the) bad planning of the past," he said.

Kevin Gaudet, Ontario director of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, says the report is asking for too much.

"Canadians are really taxed to death and it's a peculiar approach in my opinion to start out by trying to solve a problem by slapping more taxes on."

Mayor Fred Eisenberger says he doesn't favour tolls on the Red Hill Valley Expressway or the Linc, but he's not against them to pay for the cost of new roads or repairs for roads coming to the end of their lives.

[DC83]

Mayor Fred Eisenberger says he doesn't favour tolls on the Red Hill Valley Expressway or the Linc, but he's not against them to pay for the cost of new roads or repairs for roads coming to the end of their lives.

No wonder he's such a bad leader, the man can't even make up his mind.
"Well I don't like the idea, but I like the benefits of the idea. Maybe I should implement this. Nah, Council will never go for it... I'm just going to ignore it like everything else..."

I agree w/ the McMaster professor (Pavlos Kanaroglou) as people in THIS city especially would gladly pay for the use of the roads while whining and complaining about it yet never take public transit.

I say once LRT is built, THEN toll the hell out of the Linc & RHVP.

[flar]

This is a great idea in theory because users would pay extra for their use, just like with public transit. But the practical problem is that people are irrational, they'll pay $2 for a bottle of watter or a lottery ticket or $5 to rent a movie, but they will try to avoid 10 cents to drive on the Linc. The tolls would simply cause people to take alternate routes. There would still be just as many cars on the road, they'd just be using city streets instead of highways.

[SteelTown]

^ Yep I agree all it'll do is put all the cars back on the main roads. I remember before the Linc opened Mohawk and Stone Church used to be so congested but now there's never any congestion. The same for Centennial Parkway.

Instead I suggest installing congestion charge like in London, UK for Main and King St especially for trucks.

I'm with DC, give us good public transit options than push for tolls.

[raisethehammer]

people are crazy in this city.
Complaining about possible metered parking increases of 50 cents! Are we that in love with our cars?? Get a life people!

[DC83]

people are crazy in this city.
Complaining about possible metered parking increases of 50 cents! Are we that in love with our cars?? Get a life people!

Yes, yes they are. Hence Highways to nowhere!

[SteelTown]

Plus it's the end of free parking for places like Locke Street. Didn't we just get rid of metered parking on Locke like 5 years ago? How much money are we wasting to reinstall these meters back?

[DC83]

Ya, I'm REALLY annoyed about the meters on Locke.
This city cannot make up it's mind about ANYthing... it's getting pretty frustrating.

"Hey! Let's make an anti-idling by-law!"
"Great idea, we'll save the environment"

6 months later

"So, we can't inforce this anti-idling by-law"
"ya, what a stupid idea!!"

Ugh.

[SteelTown]

5 years ago Locke wasn't as successful as it was today and somehow free parking didn't come into the equation of the success? I remember Locke Street storeowners begging to get rid of the meters. Isn’t it a problem that's there's not enough parking now? Jeez do City Hall workers have any brain cells left?

[the dude]

it's already been alluded to but it's pointless to punish drivers when they're given no other option. our public transit is laughable and it's not a reasonable option for most people. i'm not absolving those who have chosen to live in the burbs miles and miles from their jobs, etc., but we must improve hsr service first...then we can gouge the hell outta them! hehe.

ya, eisenberger's a bit of a nut. he seems so excited about the prospect of removing cars from parts of downtown, etc., but these sorts of measures don't work unless you've got great public transit options. hell, we don't even have bike lanes. he's all over the place.

[raisethehammer]

I don't remember there being meters on Locke 5 years ago. I've lived in the area for 7 years and have never seen a meter on Locke.

[SteelTown]

^ Probably longer than 7 years ago. It was during Bob Morrow days. If you check the sidewalks you can clearly see holes filled in cement from the previous parking meters.

[LikeHamilton]

Sorry I have a problem with the this. A lot of people want tolls on the road so the users pay. Transit riders pay a fare…user pays. So put a meters in and the user pays. So it cost you a buck to park on Locke Street for an hour. You can get a lot done in an hour. I have seen people come out of the antique shops with hundreds of dollars of junk (my feelings). So they pay a dollar or two to park. No they will not go to a mall with free parking if the only place that has what they want is on Locke Street or any other street. It is the destination and what is on the street that draws people there. Locke Street Bakery, Beach Road Meats and Bad Dogs are only on Locke Street. Ottawa Street and Conncession Street is always crowded and they have meters and off street metered parking lots. If it was the cost of parking that drew people to an area, then downtown Hamilton and the other areas like Locke, Westdale, Ottawa Street, Downtown etc would be boomtowns and turning away people and downtown Toronto would be a ghost towns. As to people parking off the main roads for free parking. These are not the fisrt area to have this problem. All they do is have a the streets marked for 2 hour parking and permit only. Allow the home owners to get there permit for free in the general area.

I am like everyone else. I want free roads, free transit, free parking, free ti-cats tickets etc. But life is not free. The only thing we can hope for is that it is reasonable.

And a question. How come the people who live in the richest area with the most expensive stores have free parking (excluding Locke Street)?

I have a problem with the Hamilton anti-idling by-law and that it has no teeth and the exemptions make it an in-name only by-law. The big one is the temperature exemptions. It covers the times of the year when idling would be the greatest and the air quality would be the worst. I would cover most of the winter and summer months.

Here are some exemptions. There are 14 in all.

Temperatures below 5 and above 27 degrees Celsius.
Service vehicles whose main function requires the vehicle be running.
Medical conditions that require stable climatic conditions.
Transit vehicles while at a layover or stopover location.
Vehicles transporting a person where a medical doctor certifies in writing for medical reasons.
Commercial vehicles using heating or refrigeration systems.

[miketoronto]

While good transit is needed before these tolls are in place, there are some points to consider.

1. Tolls would make people rethink their lifestyle, and maybe see that they need to demand and want to live more green then they do.

2. Is public transit really that bad in Hamilton? Hamilton is a smaller city, and almost everyone within the city, is 20min-30min or less by transit from downtown and other major destinations. Infact public transit while is lacks rapid buses, or other fancy services, is pretty good in Hamilton. Most buses will take you direct to the city centre, and even in the suburban sectors, they operate on a pretty good frequency.
I suspect there are thousands of people in Hamilton for who the HSR actually does provide proper service, and yet they are to lazy to try it. So a toll might encourage these people to try it. And the additional riders would make more service improvments more popular.

Lets grill Steeltown :) Steeltown I am sure could take the bus to most places, and it does not take much longer then driving. But he still drives :)
Sorry to harp on you Steeltown :) But its all in good fun.

So yes improved transit is needed if tolls are brought in. But I think we need to remember that there is also a large segment of the population that is just lazy to walk the two min to a bus stop. And also a large segment of the population who would change their lifestyle if they had to pay the cost of living on the extreme edge, for no other reason but to get a 5,000 sq foot house to show off.

The news interviewed people the other night, and one lady actually said something like "tolls would remove the reason I moved all the way out here in the first place".

[markbarbera]

Metered parking should be on Locke, and all other business districts. Excluding it from commercial districts is silly, and raising it to a buck an hour is long overdue.

Free/cheap parking doesn't keep people away from commercial centres, a lack of unique destination points does. Locke is a unique destination which will not suffer due to metered parking.

[flar]

Example of transit service for me:

bus to downtown:
weekdays: 25-30 minutes, every hour, every half hour during rush hour
weekends: 10 minute walk +25-30 minutes, every hour

car to downtown: 12-15 minutes, anytime.

[DC83]

ONE benefit from metered parking is it will prevent area residents from driving to Locke. The only time I don't like to walk to Locke from my place is during weather like this: either freezing or gross & slushy.

Steeltown lives in an area of the mountain that's poorly serviced. The extreme east & west ends of the Mountain have little-to-no transit service. I know, I used to live in Upper Stoney Creek. Terrible. So one can't rag on him for driving to Mac as it would seriously cut his commute in at least half!

[raisethehammer]

plus, Hamilton's transit system has all routes ending downtown for some reason (most of them anyhow).
I've always wondered why an Upper James or Wentworth/Ottawa etc... bus doesn't come downtown and head out to Mac then Dundas. Why turn around downtown??
The 41 Mohawk is the best example of this...from the Meadowlands all the way to Gage/Industrial.

I had a friend who's wife used to work at Limeridge Mall. They lived near the 41 Mohawk stop in the King/Ottawa area....one, quick ride to work. Most folks in either part of the city (upper or lower) have to use 2 or more buses to get up or down. Makes no sense and would be a ridiculously easy change.

[SteelTown]

I drive to three different places in one day like this morning I drove to work at McMaster, got out during lunch hour and drove to Mohawk College and now I'm at home. Sometimes I have to go back to work from Mohawk so that's 4 different places.

If I was to take transit I would not be able to meet the timeline for each of my destinations as I have a class timetable and a tight work hour schedule. I would have to take College to Gore and take Beeline to McMaster. Then Beeline to Gore and take College again to Mohawk and then College again to my house but I have to wait 30 minutes for my College route as there's two College routes. So it's all precious time that I can't wait on. But if they improved West Hamilton bus route I might consider it but it's long and goes into Ancaster and not very direct. There's no bus route up on the Mountain that takes you to McMaster directly or fast.

My parking to Mohawk is free, I just pay for McMaster's parking rate which is around $170 for 4 months and I get a sticker on my pass to not pay for Mohawk's rate.

[markbarbera]

Most folks in either part of the city (upper or lower) have to use 2 or more buses to get up or down. Makes no sense and would be a ridiculously easy change.

This same logic is the main reason why I think having a second downtown GO Station and linking the two by bus is a bad idea. The more transfers one has to make, the less likely the trip will be made. If I have to take the bus downtown, then transfer to another bus to get to James North to catch GO, I'll say 'screw it, I'm driving to Aldershot', as would most of my commuting colleagues.

[SteelTown]

If the city needs to increase revenue why not just increase the parking rates? We have one of the cheapest parking rate in the country. Raise the meter but don't add more meters.

[DC83]

^^ It's b/c the "people" we have running this city have a severe lack of problem solving skills and will immediately jump at the easiest decision to avoid doing more work & (heaven forbid) making them think outside the box.

And this can all trickle down (or upwards) to our "leader" Mr Eisenberger himself.

City staff is so lazy and uncreative. It's no wonder why this city is in the shape it's in right now. (well, 50% Mike Harris, 50% poor city planning).

IF we had proper Rapid Transit in this city (which we SHOULD considering our size and the fact that it's the year 2008 and we're one of the only cities of this size to lack rapid transit), then tolling Red Hill would have been an AWESOME idea. "Hey, we built this thing but forgot to fig out how much maintenance was going to cost... let's raise taxes again! YAY!".

[hamiltonguy]

^ Yep I agree all it'll do is put all the cars back on the main roads. I remember before the Linc opened Mohawk and Stone Church used to be so congested but now there's never any congestion. The same for Centennial Parkway.

Instead I suggest installing congestion charge like in London, UK for Main and King St especially for trucks.

I'm with DC, give us good public transit options than push for tolls.

I'm on Mohawk everyday, there is still tonnes of congestion. Stone Church is only better now because they widened it.

[hamiltonguy]

it's already been alluded to but it's pointless to punish drivers when they're given no other option. our public transit is laughable and it's not a reasonable option for most people. i'm not absolving those who have chosen to live in the burbs miles and miles from their jobs, etc., but we must improve hsr service first...then we can gouge the hell outta them! hehe.

ya, eisenberger's a bit of a nut. he seems so excited about the prospect of removing cars from parts of downtown, etc., but these sorts of measures don't work unless you've got great public transit options. hell, we don't even have bike lanes. he's all over the place.

Public Transit may be laughable but it's usable. I take it everyday and I'm tired of people saying it can't be used. Heck I know people commute everyday from near Central Ancaster by Bus. So if people in the middle of suburban hell can do it, anyone can.

[raisethehammer]

true...my hair-cut lady works downtown and lives in Ancaster...hasn't driven downtown in a couple of decades.
I use transit all the time, granted I live downtown. I leave the car at home and use the bus regularly.
The goal should be to have people all over the city doing that.

[vid]

Ya, I'm REALLY annoyed about the meters on Locke.
This city cannot make up it's mind about ANYthing... it's getting pretty frustrating.

"Hey! Let's make an anti-idling by-law!"
"Great idea, we'll save the environment"

6 months later

"So, we can't inforce this anti-idling by-law"
"ya, what a stupid idea!!"

Ugh.

What a thing for me to look forward too!! We just passed an anti-idling bylaw so that we could build a truck stop in a residential area. :)

If I can survive with just buses, bikes and feet in Thunder Bay, you should have no problem doing so in Hamilton. ;)

[miketoronto]

Public Transit may be laughable but it's usable. I take it everyday and I'm tired of people saying it can't be used. Heck I know people commute everyday from near Central Ancaster by Bus. So if people in the middle of suburban hell can do it, anyone can.

I agree. It comes down to being lazy. People can complain about the transit network. But at the end of the day, Hamilton is not that large of a city, and unless you live out the outskirts like Dundas or Ancaster, then transit service is not that bad.

Take a look at a timetable sometime, and you see most of Hamilton except for Dundas and Ancaster, are within a 20-30min at most bus ride from downtown Hamilton. And that is by one bus. No need to transfer.
While there are improvments to be made, I don't think the Hamilton bus system is that unusable as people make it out to be.

What do people think Hamilton had before, back 50 years ago? They basically had the same routes you have today, and people flocked to the services.

Use it or lose it. And if you don't use it, then don't expect much improvments in service. And if you can't use it for all trips, I am sure there is a large majority of trips that many people could use HSR for, but still refuse to.

Everytime I visit Hamilton, I can't believe to be honest how easy it is to travel by transit around the city. From Gore Park you can get almost about anywhere with one bus.

[HAMRetrofit]

The transit is so efficient in Hamilton because the street grids move traffic so well. This seems to create a conundrum for the city. If traffic is slowed then transit will also become slowed. Higher order transit is the only way to start changing this.

Here in Toronto the city has slowed the grid by reducing left and right turns, through constructing traffic bumps on residential streets that connect major streets, and by disconnecting through ways onto major streets. All of this directs drivers towards the expressways causing significant congestion. The congestion encourages transit use.

Increasing municipal parking rates in the downtown will help encourage transit use. Also charging higher property taxes on privately owned parking lots would help encourage property owners to raise parking fees. The city could gain control over these lots by purchasing underutilized lots or by expropriating properties that are not paying taxes. They initially could use these lots for parking while charging higher rates. Once a nice package of multiple properties is assembled the land could be sold at reduced rate to developers who are serious about building. A strategy like this needs to be used to weed out dead beat property owners that have no intension of developing buildings.

[raisethehammer]

I agree. It comes down to being lazy. People can complain about the transit network. But at the end of the day, Hamilton is not that large of a city, and unless you live out the outskirts like Dundas or Ancaster, then transit service is not that bad.

Take a look at a timetable sometime, and you see most of Hamilton except for Dundas and Ancaster, are within a 20-30min at most bus ride from downtown Hamilton. And that is by one bus. No need to transfer.
While there are improvments to be made, I don't think the Hamilton bus system is that unusable as people make it out to be.

What do people think Hamilton had before, back 50 years ago? They basically had the same routes you have today, and people flocked to the services.

Use it or lose it. And if you don't use it, then don't expect much improvments in service. And if you can't use it for all trips, I am sure there is a large majority of trips that many people could use HSR for, but still refuse to.

Everytime I visit Hamilton, I can't believe to be honest how easy it is to travel by transit around the city. From Gore Park you can get almost about anywhere with one bus.


Mike, Hamilton has nowhere near the transit system we had 50 years ago.
We've lost a lot of routes in that time.
the biggest blow and dumbest move by the HSR was the removal of the electric trolley system which covered most of the lower city. They replaced them with stinky old diesel buses and some new CNG buses and ridership plummeted.
We still have no transit lanes, transit signals or higher order rapid transit in Hamilton.
It's been a couple decades of stagnation and it shows in the ridership numbers.

[flar]

Mike, Hamilton is a smaller city compared to Toronto and small and dense geographically. However by Canadian population standards, it is one of the largest cities in Canada and should have better public transit. As you know, Hamilton's population is virtually the same as that of Winnipeg and Quebec and roughly 2/3 the size of Ottawa or Calgary. Too many people (including Hamiltonians) lump Hamilton in with smaller cities like London, Kitchener or Halifax. We should think bigger, Hamilton has more in common with bigger cities than it does with places like London, including much higher density and a lower city that was almost entirely developed around a streetcar system.

Ancaster and Dundas are not comparable at all when it comes to public transportation. Dundas is on the edge of the city but it's not particularly suburban, but rather medium density, with about 30 midrise residential buildings in the core, and there are three bus routes. There is continuous urban development between Hamilton and Dundas (McMaster's big parking lot is in Dundas) and a well known public transportation activist lives around the corner from me. The bus service examples I gave above would be typical in many parts of Hamilton, and are probably much better than many places on the mountain. Ancaster has very poor bus service and always will because it is suburban sprawl for the most part and difficult to service.

[DC83]

Ancaster has very poor bus service and always will because it is suburban sprawl for the most part and difficult to service.

It's so weird b/c Ancaster has several routes going to it, yet it really DOES lack in service as the buses only operate in select areas.

Ancaster has: 16 Ancaster, 43 Stonechurch, 41 Mohawk, 5C West Hamilton/Delaware.

They pretty much only cover Golf Links & Wilson St.

[raisethehammer]

no reason why our transit system can't be a mini-version of Bostons or even on par with Portland.
We're so far behind and our local leadership not only seems to enjoy being this far behind, but continue to make decisions that will push us further and further behind. Good luck attracting new jobs and economic prosperity when we act like a backwater.

[miketoronto]

no reason why our transit system can't be a mini-version of Bostons or even on par with Portland.
We're so far behind and our local leadership not only seems to enjoy being this far behind, but continue to make decisions that will push us further and further behind. Good luck attracting new jobs and economic prosperity when we act like a backwater.


Watch what you wish for. You do know that outside of the core city of Boston, most buses end at 7PM, and at the best come once an hour.

I think people tend to look at subway maps in American cities, and forget that the supports(buses) are just not up to par. It is safe to say that Hamilton has better bus service then the majority of Boston outside the core city.
Hamilton even has higher per capita ridership then Boston.

Canadian cities Hamilton included know how to provide transit. We just have to get a little more into it, like we did before.
We gotta think big again.

[go_leafs_go02]

if Hamilton can't even renovate it's own city hall, you think they're going to throw money hand over fist to transit to improve it?

[raisethehammer]

if Hamilton can't even renovate it's own city hall, you think they're going to throw money hand over fist to transit to improve it?


certainly not.
If it was another $500 million highway they would though. Where there's a will there's a way.

[raisethehammer]

Watch what you wish for. You do know that outside of the core city of Boston, most buses end at 7PM, and at the best come once an hour.

I think people tend to look at subway maps in American cities, and forget that the supports(buses) are just not up to par. It is safe to say that Hamilton has better bus service then the majority of Boston outside the core city.
Hamilton even has higher per capita ridership then Boston.

Canadian cities Hamilton included know how to provide transit. We just have to get a little more into it, like we did before.
We gotta think big again.

I've been to Boston numerous times....any subway, streetcar or bus I've been on was fabulous and running till late in the night.
The electric buses in Cambridge were awesome....heck, even that Silver line was good for a BRT with it's own lanes and tunnels etc....
not sure where in Boston you were with no service past 7.

[miketoronto]

I've been to Boston numerous times....any subway, streetcar or bus I've been on was fabulous and running till late in the night.
The electric buses in Cambridge were awesome....heck, even that Silver line was good for a BRT with it's own lanes and tunnels etc....
not sure where in Boston you were with no service past 7.

Anywhere in Boston outside of Boston City and Cambridge has very poor transit services. So in Hamilton that would be the same as all buses stopping at 7PM in Stoney Creek, the majority of Hamilton Mountain, Dundas, and Ancaster. And I was staying in a suburb about 15 min outside of downtown Boston.

[raisethehammer]

you're still missing my point...I'm not saying we should find the areas around Boston and Portland with the worst transit and try to emulate them, I'm saying we need to look at those CITIES and try to emulate them.
Take the best of Boston and Portland and apply it here.

[miketoronto]

More improvment ideas.


ROUTE 3
Extension to Eastgate Square.



ROUTE 43
Route 43 would be extended from the Meadowlands to McMaster University. Route would also terminate at Limeridge Mall, and not continue to Upper Stoney Creek.
NEW ROUTE 45 would provide service over the portion of the current route 43From Limeridge Mall to Upper Stoney Creek.

ROUTE 11
Extension of route from Upper Stoney Creek to Eastgate Square, via Highway 20. This service would provide direct service from Upper Stoney Creek to Eastgtate Square.

NEW SOUTH EAST MOUNTAIN ROUTE
Providing direct service to Limeridge Mall from the Upper Ottawa, Upper Gage, and Upper Sherman areas.

NEW NORTH EAST MOUNTAIN ROUTE
Providing direct service to Limeridge Mall from the Upper Ottawa, Upper Gage, and Upper Sherman areas, south of Mohawk Road.

NEW LIMERIDGE DOWNTOWN SUPER EXPRESS
New Non-stop Express service from Limeridge Mall to downtown Hamilton. New service will benefit the additional bus routes terminating at Limeridge Mall.

NEW LIMERIDGE MCMASTER SUPER EXPRESS
New Non-stop express service from Limeridge Mall to McMaster University. New service will benefit the additional bus routes terminating at Limeridge Mall.

NEW LIMERIDGE MALL PARK & RIDE
New Park and Ride lot at Limeridge Mall, for commuters wishing to use new Super Express bus routes.

NEW MEADOWLANDS PARK & RIDE
New Park and Ride lot at Meadowlands, for commuters wishing to use new MEADOWLANDS SUPER EXPRESS service to Downtown Hamilton and McMaster University. Commuter rush hour service only.

NEW STONEY CREEK PARK & RIDE
New Park and Ride lot in Stoney Creek, at the Municipal Centre, for riders wishing to use new STONEY CREEK SUPER EXPRESS service to Downtown Hamilton and McMaster. Commuter rush hour service only.

NEW DUNDAS PARK & RIDE
New Park and Ride lot in Dundas, for customers wishing to use new DUNDAS SUPER EXPRESS to Downtown Hamilton. Commuter rush hours only.

NEW BURLINGTON/HAMILTON SUPER EXPRESS
Operated through a partnership between Burlington Transit and Hamilton, new bidirectional express service between Downtown Hamilton, and Burlington, as well as McMaster University.

ROUTE 33
Extension of route to McMaster University.

ROUTE 41
Extension of route from The Meadowlands to McMaster University.


FREQUENT SERVICE ROUTES
NEVER WAIT MORE THEN 15MIN FOR A BUS SEVEN DAYS A WEEK FROM EARLY MORNING TILL LATE NIGHT ON THE FOLLOWING ROUTES.

1, 2, 10, 41, 43, 27, 25, 52, 55/55A

[LikeHamilton]

Very nice routes but who going to pay? $500,000 to $1 million for “a” bus! Bus drivers about $100,000 including benefits per year! Fuel, maintenance and the bureaucracy to run it. Just because you built it…they maybe slow to us it and may never use it.
Do a costing for the routes.
HSR says to extend the Upper James from the bus depot on Upper James to the airport would cost $500,000 a year.
If you’re going to suggest to the city you have to have all the answers or they will dismiss it as undoable out of hand.

[miketoronto]

Very nice routes but who going to pay? $500,000 to $1 million for “a” bus! Bus drivers about $100,000 including benefits per year! Fuel, maintenance and the bureaucracy to run it. Just because you built it…they maybe slow to us it and may never use it.
Do a costing for the routes.
HSR says to extend the Upper James from the bus depot on Upper James to the airport would cost $500,000 a year.
If you’re going to suggest to the city you have to have all the answers or they will dismiss it as undoable out of hand.

Easy. Property taxes will pay for it. Stoney Creek, Dundas, and Ancaster do not pay the same amount as the old Hamilton does for transit services. So it is one city now, and the suburbs are going to have to start paying equal taxes for transit. That would probably raise a large number of funds for improvments. And any other money needed could be tagged onto taxes.

Or we can start a car tax, or something, where people pay 20 bucks a year for each car in their family. Toronto has a regestration tax like that now. But I think it is more like $75 dollars a car or something.

[Jon Dalton]

Problem is, those residents you speak of already complain about the few tax dollars they already contribute to transit. Read the Spectator's opinions column for example - some lady in Dundas wrote in saying "we simply can't afford to pay any more...." or something to that effect, referring to the $14 a year that she actually pays towards transit.