ATLANTA Trying to Get College Hall of Fame

[JoLeMaMa]

from the ABC:

"The Atlanta Sports Council is involved in extensive negotiations to bring the National Football Foundation's College Football Hall of Fame, currently based in South Bend, Ind., to a Centennial Olympic Park destination in Atlanta, similar to what was conceived for the failed NASCAR Hall of Fame bid, people familiar with the talks say."

FULL STORY:
http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2007/12/10/story1.html

thoughts?
I'd love it.:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[MarketsWork]

It sounds like a natural to me. College football is darned near a religion in the South, and still ranks high above the NFL to most Southern natives; such is not the case in most other parts of the United States. That said, college football enjoys strong loyalties throughout the country, and doesn't have the "redneck" regional label that (deservedly or not) NASCAR carries. And after 100+ years, college football is certainly not a recent fad. A College Football Hall of Fame in a major convention city like Atlanta would pull in many times the visitors than it ever could draw to South Bend. I hope it works out.

[Tombstoner]

This seems too similar (in motivation and foresight) to the NASCAR proposal -- another "instant attraction" near COP. I'm not happy with what Atlanta is, but I sure don't want it to become another Orlando. Fortifying existing museums and cultural institutions would have a much bigger impact than a CFHF.

[Buckley]

Is this the Hall of Fame that is in South Bend IN currently? I recall reading an article about a year ago regarding the lack of support to keep it there.

I would be much more enthusiastic about this than I was about the NASCAR shrine. It would actually be a fairly natural fit for Atlanta and not nearly as cheesy as the NASCAR HOF---which by most accounts, really deserved to be in North Carolina. In the end, that was a good outcome for ATL.

[sprtsluvr8]

It's cute how the media reports that the Chamber of Commerce has "sought to keep the talks confidential". I guess that's over now...their cover is blown.

[SAV]

This seems too similar (in motivation and foresight) to the NASCAR proposal -- another "instant attraction" near COP. I'm not happy with what Atlanta is, but I sure don't want it to become another Orlando. Fortifying existing museums and cultural institutions would have a much bigger impact than a CFHF.

Chill out. :cool:
Its not like they are trying to get Six flags to move downtown. Maybe they can build a skyscraper on top of it............

[DonTallPaul]

This would be very cool. And it certainly would be at home at COP near the Georgia Dome and Phillips. I do hope though that if we get this we don't also have the civil rights muesuem at COP. I would rather see the major tourist attracts spread out a little bit.

[Andrea]

This would be very cool. And it certainly would be at home at COP near the Georgia Dome and Phillips.

Maybe they could do something to hook it up with the Heisman Trophy. That's one of Tech's great football legacies.

[vertex]

Atlanta is not the first place that comes to mind when one thinks of College Football. Looks like someone is grasping at straws with this idea.

[Sulley]

Ok, we get it... you're still angry about USAirways and Delta.

[vertex]

^^^Oh gosh booster, try naming 3 things that come to mind when the average fan associates college football with Atlanta.

[Tombstoner]

^^^Oh gosh booster, try naming 3 things that come to mind when the average fan associates college football with Atlanta.

:previous: don't take the bait, vertex. Atlanta boosters never find a project that isn't "perfect for Atlanta" or "world-class" (until, of course, it's put somewhere else in which case it becomes "lame" and "we never wanted it anyway..."). :haha:

[cabasse]

haha, except i'd hardly call dallastexan - i mean optimus prime - an atlanta booster.

college football is big in the south. atlanta is the de facto capital of the south. the hall of fame's current location is not a benefit to its number of visitors. uga has a couple of fierce rivalries just as strong as um's with osu/msu.

clean, old-fashioned hate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean%2C_Old-Fashioned_Hate) - tech/uga
deep south's oldest rivalry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_South%27s_Oldest_Rivalry) - uga/auburn

and at least it's not the nascar hall of fame. (and tombstoner, iirc, most of us were hoping against the nascar hof.)

[Tombstoner]

:previous: I don't doubt that Atlanta has a legitmate claim, cabasse, but it (and maybe even the South) is not the obvious choice. And if "most of you" were against the NASCAR idea, most of you kept it to yourselves. The forum was mostly "Atlanta is all about NASCAR" until it went to Charlotte, then everyone came out to say "whew, we dodged that bullet." Undoubtedly, some people felt that way from the start, but it's not in the nature of Atlanta boosters to say "this is crap" until they hear everyone else say it.

[urbanscraper]

Is Charlotte in the running for this too?

[Andrea]

^^^Oh gosh booster, try naming 3 things that come to mind when the average fan associates college football with Atlanta.

The Heisman Trophy, the Peach Bowl (or whatever it is now) and two time national champ Georgia Tech? And don't forget two time national champ UGA out in the burbs as well.

I'm still thinking NASCAR will come to its senses and move back to its historic home here, too.

[RobMidtowner]

^GT is actually a 4-time national champ. :)

[Andrea]

True. And technically UGA is a five time champ.

The more I think about it, how could they NOT put the Hall of Fame here?

<puts on Larry Munson highlight tape>

[Tombstoner]

:previous: Andrea--you so crazy! ;)

[Andrea]

Tombstoner, I know but I can't help it.

:fruit:

[ATLaffinity]

quick, where's the college basketball HOF?

*crickets chirping*

exactly.

i do enjoy college sports. looking at a football in a glass case? not so much.

[shanthemanatl]

Atlanta would be a fantastic fit for the College Football HOF. Pac 10, Big 12, and Big 10 aside, no region is more passionate about it's college football than the South. While there may be other cities in the South or across the country that might be worthy hosts, I think Atlanta would be an excellent choice.

From the article, it almost seems that either the CFHOF folks approached Atlanta about their interest (or the other way around). There doesn't seem, at least at this point, to be any kind of "competition" going on similar to the NASCAR thing.

[atl2phx]

the myrtlebeachgatlinburginizilation of COP continues. :irked:

[Tombstoner]

Tombstoner, I know but I can't help it.

:fruit:

But that's why we love you. :)

[Tombstoner]

*crickets chirping*




:D :D :D

[echinatl]

quick, where's the college basketball HOF?

*crickets chirping*

exactly.

i do enjoy college sports. looking at a football in a glass case? not so much.

Well you can't really compare football to basketball. I graduated from FSU and never went to a basketball game once (we were pretty bad but still) it's just not as popular. Now with football I went to every home game plus a few away games. The FSU vs Alabama game broke all attendance records in Jacksonville which was surprising since UF and UGA play there (and that’s a huge rivalry). The point is, you have hundreds of thousands of fans going to EVERY game. My dad lives in South Bend and I bet he doesn't even know the CFHOF is there. I was just there in November and I didn't really get a feeling that football was very big there, maybe it's because of the year Notre Dame has had. It had a small quiet town feel to it.

Looking at a football in a glass case is exciting if it’s the actual football that was used to win a huge game that you watched growing up. Brings back good memories and football is a way of life for some people (including me).... been a tuff yea (I'm a Dolphins and FSU fan:( )

CFHOF would do well in Atlanta, I can’t think of any other city better suited honestly.

[cabasse]

the myrtlebeachgatlinburginizilation of COP continues. :irked:

true... but it was cop to begin with.

[Buckley]

While Atlanta may not have any particular claim to college football fame beyond that of some other cities, it is in the center of a region that is crazy about the sport. Within 300 miles (+/-) you have many successful football programs and many of their fans (many of whom make ATL home). The success of the SEC championship and the middle-tier Peach Bowl attest to the potential of Atlanta as a host for such a museum. With a steady convention crowd and 5 million residents in the metro, there is also a considerable population to draw from. I'm certain fans are passionate about the sport in other regions of the country, particularly in concentrated areas around certain college towns. Ann Arbor, Columbus, College Station, Lincoln, and South Bend come to mind. But, the lack of success the HOF experienced in South Bend seems to speak volumes. Additionally, part of the appeal of ATL would be that it wouldn't appear to be tied to a single program.

I assume this would be a relatively small museum that would fit in nicely with what has been/will be built in the COP area.

[initiald]

I kinda think Birmingham would be a better location, actually. But Atlanta would be a lot better than South Bend.

[Muskavon]

the myrtlebeachgatlinburginizilation of COP continues. :irked:

Yes, and NYC needs to get rid of that "touristy" Times Square area or otherwise always been a laughing stock among big cities.

I really don't see the zero sum game some people subscribe to with the "either high arts or this" mentality. Let the Chamber of commerce be involved in trying to attract things more realted to commerce and philanthropists can go on about pushing for cultured things too.

[dante2308]

I'm not sure whether people are asking for another museum or just complaining about football. I may be out of date about the technical definition of 'culture', but I was sure football is a very large part of ours. It isn't fake or superficial, it is an obsession in this city and a hall of fame would only inspire the next contemporary generation the way impressionist art never will.

We aren't a stop along the highway. The attractions in the city are for us to enjoy. The more and the greater variety, the better. If you want to see pedestrian traffic, check out the area around the aquarium and the World of Coke. I'm going to go out on limb and suggest that the HOF even move to the Mile to invigorate it and bring out Midtown as a national destination. Downtown can't have all the glory and everyone and their cousin has a museum and an opera house. No need to even drive in from the suburbs for that.

[MarketsWork]

...The more and the greater variety, the better. If you want to see pedestrian traffic, check out the area around the aquarium and the World of Coke. I'm going to go out on limb and suggest that the HOF even move to the Mile to invigorate it and bring out Midtown as a national destination...

I believe that's a great idea, dante! Hundreds of thousands of conventioneers come to Atlanta and never leave Downtown. But Midtown is so close that many people need only a good reason to make the hop, skip and a jump a few blocks north to see something interesting. Along the way, they would add to the pedestrian traffic on the sidewalks and in the Midtown stores and restaurants. For the same reason, I hope the future Civil Rights museum will locate on Auburn Avenue and contribute to the resurgence of that historic neighborhood.

[alexjon]

quick, where's the college basketball HOF?

*crickets chirping*

exactly.

i do enjoy college sports. looking at a football in a glass case? not so much.

South Bend, IN

[Tombstoner]

I'm not sure whether people are asking for another museum or just complaining about football. I may be out of date about the technical definition of 'culture', but I was sure football is a very large part of ours. It isn't fake or superficial, it is an obsession in this city and a hall of fame would only inspire the next contemporary generation the way impressionist art never will.

We aren't a stop along the highway. The attractions in the city are for us to enjoy. The more and the greater variety, the better. If you want to see pedestrian traffic, check out the area around the aquarium and the World of Coke. I'm going to go out on limb and suggest that the HOF even move to the Mile to invigorate it and bring out Midtown as a national destination. Downtown can't have all the glory and everyone and their cousin has a museum and an opera house. No need to even drive in from the suburbs for that.

If you're willing to be that broad in your definition, then, yes, everything is "culture"--WOC, Six Flags, drive-in movies... Personally, I think a family entertainment venue like a CFHF is perfectly fine, but why put it in a high profile place that already has more than it's fair share of family-oriented attractions? Popular culture is important, but so is high culture, and Atlanta needs less of the former and more of the latter.

[sprtsluvr8]

Here is a photo of the current HoF...not a bad looking museum, but I assume a brand new facility would be a bit more grand. I've been to the current HoF once...it was a little out of the way, but we made it a side trip while in Chicago and also toured the campus at Notre Dame. I was almost worth the 2 hour drive from Chicago...but then again I'm a big football fan...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/52/132071163_475b842e50.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/starshaped/132071163/

[sprtsluvr8]

South Bend, IN

South Bend is where the football hall of fame is located...his question was about college basketball.

There are a couple of college basketball HoF...I know there is one in Springfield, MA where the game of basketball was born, but it isn't college-specific. It includes pro, college, international, high school, etc...

[dante2308]

If you're willing to be that broad in your definition, then, yes, everything is "culture"--WOC, Six Flags, drive-in movies... Personally, I think a family entertainment venue like a CFHF is perfectly fine, but why put it in a high profile place that already has more than it's fair share of family-oriented attractions? Popular culture is important, but so is high culture, and Atlanta needs less of the former and more of the latter.

What exactly is Atlanta missing in terms of 'high' culture that isn't already in the plans? Nowadays, high culture is just another word or old world culture. It assumes anything that became popular or well known since the television is cheep and should be reduced.

Atlanta already has several museums, performing venues, even an observatory and a botanical garden. What exactly is there left of high culture to want?

[Andrea]

I bet that if the Symphony joint ventured with Dave & Buster's they'd raise the money for that new building in no time.

[dante2308]

I don't think if we stop all construction of city landmarks until we have a Symphony Hall, the city would be better for it or would guarantee that we raise enough money. A football hall of fame is not a bad addition to the city and its not like we are low on space. I'm sure it could even fit under another pointless skyscraper.

Isn't the Fox and the High right down the road anyway? Why is it so important that we reject institutions that other segments of the population would enjoy? No one is rejecting 'high' culture.

Besides, isn't 1/3 of a billion is a bit steep anyway to ask for in donations?

[Andrea]

I say bring it all on.

[Tombstoner]

What exactly is Atlanta missing in terms of 'high' culture that isn't already in the plans? Nowadays, high culture is just another word or old world culture. It assumes anything that became popular or well known since the television is cheep and should be reduced.

Atlanta already has several museums, performing venues, even an observatory and a botanical garden. What exactly is there left of high culture to want?

God...how does one even respond??? :(

[MarketsWork]

God...how does one even respond??? :(

Logically and rationally is always best.

[Tombstoner]

Logically and rationally is always best.

Logic and reason are not absolute; they only work when one agrees on assumptions and values. I doubt anyone who thinks Atlanta is already loaded with fine arts institutions will ever agree with anyone who thinks it isn't.

[dante2308]

Logic and reason are not absolute; they only work when one agrees on assumptions and values. I doubt anyone who thinks Atlanta is already loaded with fine arts institutions will ever agree with anyone who thinks it isn't.

Wow, I do listen to people you know. You can answer the question and I'll be informed.

[Andrea]

To those who believe Atlanta is a cultural wasteland, I encourage you to (a) create some good art for the city, (b) acquire some good art for the city and/or (c) join a group to assist with (a) or (b). Anything less would be ... well, I don't want to say idle carping, but you know what I mean.

[L.ARCH]

To those who believe Atlanta is a cultural wasteland, I encourage you to (a) create some good art for the city, (b) acquire some good art for the city and/or (c) join a group to assist with (a) or (b). Anything less would be ... well, I don't want to say idle carping, but you know what I mean.

Isn't culture more than just art?

[Andrea]

Isn't culture more than just art?

I'm using them interchangeably.

[john3eblover]

Logic and reason are not absolute; they only work when one agrees on assumptions and values. I doubt anyone who thinks Atlanta is already loaded with fine arts institutions will ever agree with anyone who thinks it isn't.

Remind me again Tombstoner, why do you live in Atlanta? I've been reading your posts for a while now, and I can't figure it out. In fact I can't even figure out why you read this forum for that matter. You seem to absolutely loathe everything about Atlanta. It seems that your whole purpose for being is to persecute every innocent idea anyone might have on this board, and to ridicule everything about Atlanta. It's downright depressing.

[Tombstoner]

Remind me again Tombstoner, why do you live in Atlanta? I've been reading your posts for a while now, and I can't figure it out. In fact I can't even figure out why you read this forum for that matter. You seem to absolutely loathe everything about Atlanta. It seems that your whole purpose for being is to persecute every innocent idea anyone might have on this board, and to ridicule everything about Atlanta. It's downright depressing.

I live in Atlanta because my family and my work is here. I don't loathe Atlanta at all -- I'm not impressed with Atlanta but that's not the same as loathing (but maybe that's too nuanced for you). I read the forum to hear of news about things that might happen since (let me draw your attention to the first sentence) my family and my work is here. Sorry to depress you. If you think everyone who lives in Atlanta or reads this forum should be as uncritical as you, maybe you should see about getting a law passed or at least file a complaint with the moderator.

PS. I don't think you can "persecute" ideas, and I don't think opposing something is the same as "ridicule." Get a grip (or at least a dictionary).

[Tombstoner]

To those who believe Atlanta is a cultural wasteland, I encourage you to (a) create some good art for the city, (b) acquire some good art for the city and/or (c) join a group to assist with (a) or (b). Anything less would be ... well, I don't want to say idle carping, but you know what I mean.

I don't create art -- no talent, I'm afraid -- though I financially support (with high-level memberships that I rarely use) the High, the Carlos, the Fernbank and the Symphony. I support the High and Fernbank because I hope they will get better--not because they are good. Let me ask you, Andrea, if you can't create art, acquire art, or join groups (my work schedule is bizarre but that's another story), do you have a right to be dissatisfied or does that automatically relegate you to role of "carper"?* Personally, I know from experience that if enough people make their dissatisfaction known (and a lot of us engage with curators and gallery owners), that motivates change better than people that uncritically swallow everything that comes down the pike. So I guess I'm saying I'd rather be a carp than a pike. :)

*And does it follow that if you can't a) do away with the Connector, b) acquire a new freeway system or c) join a group that assists with a or b, you shouldn't...well...you know? ;)

[dante2308]

I don't create art -- no talent, I'm afraid -- though I financially support (with high-level memberships that I rarely use) the High, the Carlos, the Fernbank and the Symphony. I support the High and Fernbank because I hope they will get better--not because they are good. Let me ask you, Andrea, if you can't create art, acquire art, or join groups (my work schedule is bizarre but that's another story), do you have a right to be dissatisfied or does that automatically relegate you to role of "carper"? Personally, I know from experience that if enough people make their dissatisfaction known (and a lot of us engage with curators and gallery owners), that motivates change better than people that uncritically swallow everything that comes down the pike. So I guess I'm saying I'd rather be a carp than a pike. :)

Its been called the whining theory. :yes: Very powerful.

[ThrashATL]

If the HOF WANTS to move to Atlanta, then I say go for it. If that pic of the current facility in South Bend is the best they can do, they deserve better, I've seen better looking Chevy dealerships. As far as it being close to Notre Dame who cares? They're a former shell of themselves, they got beat by a half assed Georgia Tech for Krist sakes.

[Andrea]

Let me ask you, Andrea, if you can't create art, acquire art, or join groups (my work schedule is bizarre but that's another story), do you have a right to be dissatisfied or does that automatically relegate you to role of "carper"?

Oh, I don't see anything terribly wrong with a little recreational carping, Tombstoner. I often engage in it myself and sometimes find it quite satisfying. Might as well own it, though, don't you think?

And yes, I think you're right to draw a distinction between useful criticism and quibbling pettifoggery. Of course the line is often blurred and it may simply come down to a question of tone and intent.

;)

[L.ARCH]

I'm using them interchangeably.

In that case Atlanta could use some more culture of both the "art" and "non-art" variety. When I think of the culture of a city... or better yet, when I think of cities with culture, I tend to think of people, art, music, food, and an overall defining "sense of place." Atlanta has a lot going for it. There are several distinct districts that come to mind- little five points-bohemian, the highlands-yuppies, downtown- tourist district, midtown- the gays, many in-town neighborhoods are predominantly African American. What's Atlanta missing? Concentrated diversity, not to mention a China Town/Korea Town, Little Italy, Little Mexico... and the ones OTP don't really count because you don't experience them driving up 85. Our traditional cultural institutions like the High, the ballet, the opera and they're all a little lacking in my book, especially when compared to other "cultural centers." Atlanta has great restaurants and the music scene is fantastic. I'm probably one of the first to point out to people that Atlanta has culture, it's just at a smaller scale and harder to find (because the city is so spread out) than what I think of when I think of a cultured city. Forgive me for wanting to hold Atlanta to a higher standard, the city already has so much to offer, I can't help but leave wanting more...

[Tombstoner]

Oh, I don't see anything terribly wrong with a little recreational carping, Tombstoner. I often engage in it myself and sometimes find it quite satisfying. Might as well own it, though, don't you think?

And yes, I think you're right to draw a distinction between useful criticism and quibbling pettifoggery.

;)

But again, Andrea, when you and others go on (and on) about the Connector (not that I've ever complained, I just keep reading until another topic arises as it invariably does :)) are you engaged in "useful criticism" or "quibbling pettifoggery"? Surely, we would hate a situation where we accused others of carping when we disagree, but providing useful criticism when we think the same way -- wouldn't we? ;)

In any case, I'll say it again, a HOF is fine, but IN MY OPINION (and in the opinion of some others) it's not the kind of thing that is going to raise the culture-quotient in Atlanta (and I don't expect to convince anyone of that if they think Atlanta's culture is 'just fine the way it is, thankyouverymuch.') I feel compelled to voice my opinion because I really want to like Atlanta--I've gotten very attached to other cities I've lived in and I miss not having much civic pride.

[Andrea]

But again, Andrea, when you and others go on (and on) about the Connector (not that I've ever complained, I just keep reading until another topic arises as it invariably does :)) are you engaged in "useful criticism" or "quibbling pettifoggery"? Surely, we would hate a situation where we accused others of carping when we disagree, but providing useful criticism when we think the same way -- wouldn't we?

Not at all, Tombstoner. I readily acknowledge that my critique of the connector might be considered carping by some.

Personally, I think not. Instead of simply bemoaning the existence of the connector, I've carefully laid out its history, its pros as well as it cons, the reasons why it is no longer valid and several specfic suggestions for improving the situation. I've also referenced historical as well as current scholarly sources. I don't have any political clout but I've also spoken to transportation planners and higher ups at GDOT and ARC about this.

But sure, my critique may considered carping and that's okay with me. However, as I say, the difference between that and constructive criticism may simply be one of intent and tone. I tend to think that my comments have been specific, fact based and directed toward improvement.

To me that seems rather different from saying, "Culture in Atlanta is so lacking I don't know where to begin," or "Compared to other cities I miss not having civic pride."

[MarketsWork]

What's Atlanta missing? Concentrated diversity, not to mention a China Town/Korea Town, Little Italy, Little Mexico...

"Concentrated diversity" is nothing more than voluntary segregation -- in the same vein that goth kids demonstrate their individuality by dressing alike. But I don't mind such segregated areas, as long as such associations are voluntary and do not exclude "diversity" within their own boundaries by keeping "un-concentrateds" out.

[Tombstoner]

Not at all, Tombstoner. I readily acknowledge that my critique of the connector might be considered carping by some.

Personally, I think not. Instead of simply bemoaning the existence of the connector, I've carefully laid out its history, its pros as well as it cons, the reasons why it is no longer valid and several specfic suggestions for improving the situation. I've also referenced historical as well as current scholarly sources. I don't have any political clout but I've also spoken to transportation planners and higher ups at GDOT and ARC about this.

But sure, my critique may considered carping and that's okay with me. However, as I say, the difference between that and constructive criticism may simply be one of intent and tone. I tend to think that my comments have been specific, fact based and directed toward improvement.

To me that seems rather different from saying, "Culture in Atlanta is so lacking I don't know where to begin," or "Compared to other cities I miss not having civic pride."

Yes, you've been meticulous about laying out your arguments. It still comes down to values, so I don't think you've proven anything, and to many it may seem like pointless carping. I don't think it is as you feel strongly about it, you are informed, and utimately you are entitled to your opinion (and you always put it forward politely).

Please don't misquote me, however. I never said "culture in ATL is so lacking I don't know where to begin." I said I didn't know where to begin in responding to a poster's facile comments that the HOF is as cultural as anything else and that high culture is just old culture that isn't on television. To address that comment (logically and rationally as Marketworks suggests) is truly pointless--where would one begin in a forum like this to debate the definition of "culture"? It really left me (and leaves me) with no good response--not because its insight is so devastatingly brilliant but because it provides no foundation for engagement.

In terms of my not having civic pride (and actually, it's about wishing that I did have civic pride), that's not an argument that I expect to "win." That's an attempt at honesty. I'm not asking you to agree or not, I'm explaining why I bother to participate in the forum (in response to another poster).

[sprtsluvr8]

Sports are an integral part of culture, and it would be an interesting addition to Atlanta's cultural offerings. A museum honoring accomplished coaches and players in one of the great sports of American culture is nothing to sneeze at...with inductees like Bear Bryant, John Heisman, Ara Parseghian, Pop Warner, Knute Rockne, Woody Hayes, Joe Paterno, Charlie Justice, Marcus Allen, Tony Dorsett, Joe Green, Bo Jackson, Dick Butkus, Steve Young, Herschel Walker, Jerry Rice, Barry Sanders...and on and on...important, hallowed names in American sports culture.

The HoF is a respectable institution that displays the history of the sport, and I don't see anything wrong with the city throwing its full support behind this move.

[L.ARCH]

"Concentrated diversity" is nothing more than voluntary segregation -- in the same vein that goth kids demonstrate their individuality by dressing alike. But I don't mind such segregated areas, as long as such associations are voluntary and do not exclude "diversity" within their own boundaries by keeping "un-concentrateds" out.

I completely agree with you, I meant physically concentrated areas of diversity... as in, I wish the already existing segregated areas I mentioned were closer together and were joined by the ones I wish we had ie. china town, little italy...

[Andrea]

Please don't misquote me, however. I never said "culture in ATL is so lacking I don't know where to begin." I said I didn't know where to begin in responding to a poster's facile comments that the HOF is as cultural as anything else and that high culture is just old culture that isn't on television.

Sorry I misunderstood you, Tombstoner. Your use of the triple question marks and the sad face smiley led me to believe you were expressing significant dismay over the state of "culture" in our humble burg. I was also taking this in the context of earlier comments you've made (for instance, your feeling that we lack good libraries here).

In any event, I understand the point and appreciate the clarification.

:)

[Tombstoner]

Sorry I misunderstood you, Tombstoner. Your use of the triple question marks and the sad face smiley led me to believe you were expressing significant dismay over the state of "culture" in our humble burg. I was also taking this in the context of earlier comments you've made (for instance, your feeling that we lack good libraries here).

In any event, I understand the point and appreciate the clarification.

:)

No apology necessary. I am, in fact, not very happy about the state of Atlanta's cultural institutions (such as the libraries and the High), so I can see why you might have thought that's where I was coming from. Even so, I would NEVER be so silly or dismissive as to say "Atlanta has no culture." To the contrary, tons of stuff goes on in music venues, galleries, university foreign film series etc. that's impossible to keep track of--some cities (I'm thinking Chicago, Pittsburgh, even Dallas) are really good at promoting their offerings in a way that makes them coherent and accessible. It also ties them into larger, national "conversations" about the arts and just feels more...plugged in and aware of how they relate to the rest of the world. Pittsburgh has a version of Creative Loafing called In Pittsburgh that I think is a real model in this regard. It's hip, but it's also literate (and not in the old-culture, boring way ;)). I think Cyclorama and Museum of Puppetry Arts are truly gems, but Atlanta's cultural "powers-that-be" would rather promote the World of Coke and the Aquarium. A HOF will be another crowd-pleasing extravaganza without much real substance (or even real entertainment value), I fear, and add to the white noise (just my opinion--I don't think I'm proving a damn thing).

[SAV]

You'll be surprise to see how cultural college football is to a lot of people

[L.ARCH]

You'll be surprise to see how cultural college football is to a lot of people

Not surprised at all... but then again I went to UGA.

[SAV]

Millions of people live and die for college football. A lot of college teams don't only represent the school itself, but the state.

[DruidCity]

Millions of people live and die for college football. A lot of college teams don't only represent the school itself, but the state.


That's especially true in the southeast.
Bama's spring practice brought an estimated 105,000 to Tuscaloosa (92,000+ in the stadium, and the rest hanging out on campus for the hell of it).
Yeah, that's just for an intrasquad scrimmage for a team that went 6-6.
SEC (and at least some ACC) fan bases are pretty damn dedicated to their cause. I think a "college football" anything in Atlanta would be successful.

[SAV]

delete

[john3eblover]

I just hope UGA beats the shit out of Hawaii...or we'll never hear the end of it.

[Andrea]

--some cities (I'm thinking Chicago, Pittsburgh, even Dallas) are really good at promoting their offerings in a way that makes them coherent and accessible. It also ties them into larger, national "conversations" about the arts and just feels more...plugged in and aware of how they relate to the rest of the world.

I suspect that a number of locals would maintain that they are plugged in to larger national conversations about the arts and that, in fact, they are aware of how they relate to the rest of the world. For instance, the many artists at places like the Atlanta Symphony (http://www.atlantasymphony.org/), the Atlanta Opera (http://www.atlantaopera.org/), the Alliance Theatre (http://www.alliancetheatre.org/), the 14th Street Playhouse (http://www.14thstplayhouse.org/), the faculty and students at Emory (http://www.emory.edu/), Spelman (http://www.spelman.edu/), Clark (http://www.cau.edu/), Agnes Scott (http://www.agnesscott.edu/), Morehouse (http://www.morehouse.edu/), Georgia State (http://www.gsu.edu/), Georgia Tech (http://www.gatech.edu/), Clayton State (http://www.clayton.edu/), Kennesaw (http://www.kennesaw.edu/), Auburn Avenue Research Library (http://www.af.public.lib.ga.us/aarl/), SCAD (http://www.scad.edu/), etc., etc., etc.

But maybe they just don't realize how disconnected and irrelevant they are in the larger world of the arts.

[Tombstoner]

I suspect that a number of locals would maintain that they are plugged in to larger national conversations about the arts and that, in fact, they are aware of how they relate to the rest of the world. For instance, the many artists at places like the Atlanta Symphony (http://www.atlantasymphony.org/), the Atlanta Opera (http://www.atlantaopera.org/), the Alliance Theatre (http://www.alliancetheatre.org/), the 14th Street Playhouse (http://www.14thstplayhouse.org/), the faculty and students at Emory (http://www.emory.edu/), Spelman (http://www.spelman.edu/), Clark (http://www.cau.edu/), Agnes Scott (http://www.agnesscott.edu/), Morehouse (http://www.morehouse.edu/), Georgia State (http://www.gsu.edu/), Georgia Tech (http://www.gatech.edu/), Clayton State (http://www.clayton.edu/), Kennesaw (http://www.kennesaw.edu/), Auburn Avenue Research Library (http://www.af.public.lib.ga.us/aarl/), SCAD (http://www.scad.edu/), etc., etc., etc.

But maybe they just don't realize how disconnected and irrelevant they are in the larger world of the arts.


In case anyone was interested in what was actually said, I dared to suggest that some cities are better at promoting their offerings and tying them into national conversations (through policy and popular media). I made no statement about any of Atlanta's arts being "disconnected and irrelevant" (but don't let that stop you, Andrea -- you go girl).

[Andrea]

Tombstoner, it seems to me that Atlanta has a rather thriving arts community, especially for a town that only began to emerge into the big leagues a few decades ago. Our institutions (such as those I mentioned) strike me as energetic and progressive, and recognized as such on the national scene. To the extent I come in contact with these institutions, they seem to be populated by very talented and passionate people.

That's not to say there's not plenty of room for improvement. But why don't we have a conversation about how that can be done instead of simply decrying the current state of affairs?

I'd throw this out for starters. There will never be another museum like the Met or the MFA. At today's prices, a single painting by an acknowledged master -- even those painted within recent decades -- can overwhelm a museum's entire endowment. So what approach is best for a mueum like the High?

And what sort of structural goals should our institutions strive for to strengthen themselves?

[Tombstoner]

Tombstoner, it seems to me that Atlanta has a rather thriving arts community, especially for a town that only began to emerge into the big leagues a few decades ago. Our institutions (such as those I mentioned) strike me as energetic and progressive, and recognized as such on the national scene. To the extent I come in contact with these institutions, they seem to be populated by very talented and passionate people.

That's not to say there's not plenty of room for improvement. But why don't we have a conversation about how that can be done instead of simply decrying the current state of affairs?

I'd throw this out for starters. There will never be another museum like the Met or the MFA. At today's prices, a single painting by an acknowledged master -- even those painted within recent decades -- can overwhelm a museum's entire endowment. So what approach is best for a mueum like the High?

And what sort of structural goals should our institutions strive for to strengthen themselves?

Why "simply decry" the Connector, Andrea?

My purpose (in this thread) in lamenting the mediocrity of some of our "major" institutions is in response to the opinions of some who think that Atlanta already has plenty of world-class culture and so a CFHOF, rather than an investment in "high" culture, is a better choice for Atlanta (and I don't think those people are stupid, or hicks, or that they're saying 'museums are unimportant' or anything else ... I accept the disagreement without strawmanning their argument or reducing it to a caricature).

You pose a very good question at the end. Probably one that should start another thread. Don't mind if I sit that out as, apparently, I will be waiting for the second coming of the Lord and for MOMA and the Met to move to Atlanta (and throwing darts at my Atlanta poster and eating babies)*.

*I'm being facetious -- I don't really have an Atlanta poster.

[Dragonheart8588]

I suspect that a number of locals would maintain that they are plugged in to larger national conversations about the arts and that, in fact, they are aware of how they relate to the rest of the world. For instance, the many artists at places like the Atlanta Symphony (http://www.atlantasymphony.org/), the Atlanta Opera (http://www.atlantaopera.org/), the Alliance Theatre (http://www.alliancetheatre.org/), the 14th Street Playhouse (http://www.14thstplayhouse.org/), the faculty and students at Emory (http://www.emory.edu/), Spelman (http://www.spelman.edu/), Clark (http://www.cau.edu/), Agnes Scott (http://www.agnesscott.edu/), Morehouse (http://www.morehouse.edu/), Georgia State (http://www.gsu.edu/), Georgia Tech (http://www.gatech.edu/), Clayton State (http://www.clayton.edu/), Kennesaw (http://www.kennesaw.edu/), Auburn Avenue Research Library (http://www.af.public.lib.ga.us/aarl/), SCAD (http://www.scad.edu/), etc., etc., etc.

But maybe they just don't realize how disconnected and irrelevant they are in the larger world of the arts.

I know GSU have revitalized two art theaters. The rialto & the other one, I can't remember the name.

[Andrea]

My purpose (in this thread) in lamenting the mediocrity of some of our "major" institutions is in response to the opinions of some who think that Atlanta already has plenty of world-class culture and so a CFHOF, rather than an investment in "high" culture, is a better choice for Atlanta (and I don't think those people are stupid, or hicks, or that they're saying 'museums are unimportant' or anything else ... I accept the disagreement without strawmanning their argument or reducing it to a caricature).

I don't see this is a zero sum issue. Lots of folks who enjoy the fine arts are also rabid college football fans. In a city that will top six million residents within the next decade there's plenty of room for both.

As to lamenting the mediocrity of our major cultural institutions, I prefer to look at this from the vantage point of the glass being half full rather than half empty. As I commented earlier, skyrocketing prices have made it impossible to create new museums like the Met, the MFA or the Art Institute. But we DO have some first class institutions and a handful of unique treasures. We also have lots of extremely talented and committed people who are knocking themselves out to expand and enhance the city's arts community. I think they are definitely part of national and international conversations about the arts, and that they're very much plugged in and aware of how they relate to the rest of the world. So I'd rather laud them for their gains than lament their mediocrity.

[MarketsWork]

Very well said, Andrea.

[jayhawk]

I don't see this is a zero sum issue. Lots of folks who enjoy the fine arts are also rabid college football fans. In a city that will top six million residents within the next decade there's plenty of room for both.

As to lamenting the mediocrity of our major cultural institutions, I prefer to look at this from the vantage point of the glass being half full rather than half empty. As I commented earlier, skyrocketing prices have made it impossible to create new museums like the Met, the MFA or the Art Institute. But we DO have some first class institutions and a handful of unique treasures. We also have lots of extremely talented and committed people who are knocking themselves out to expand and enhance the city's arts community. I think they are definitely part of national and international conversations about the arts, and that they're very much plugged in and aware of how they relate to the rest of the world. So I'd rather laud them for their gains than lament their mediocrity.

Yeah!! What she said.

[gttx]

I just hope UGA beats the shit out of Hawaii...or we'll never hear the end of it.

Oh but it would be such great news here at Tech if the Dawgs got stomped by Hawaii!

I'm all for a college football hall of fame here, but I really hope the rednecks that come up to visit from Athens don't venture into Midtown...

[Tombstoner]

I don't see this is a zero sum issue. Lots of folks who enjoy the fine arts are also rabid college football fans. In a city that will top six million residents within the next decade there's plenty of room for both.

As to lamenting the mediocrity of our major cultural institutions, I prefer to look at this from the vantage point of the glass being half full rather than half empty. As I commented earlier, skyrocketing prices have made it impossible to create new museums like the Met, the MFA or the Art Institute. But we DO have some first class institutions and a handful of unique treasures. We also have lots of extremely talented and committed people who are knocking themselves out to expand and enhance the city's arts community. I think they are definitely part of national and international conversations about the arts, and that they're very much plugged in and aware of how they relate to the rest of the world. So I'd rather laud them for their gains than lament their mediocrity.


I agree, of course, Andrea. This isn't a zero-sum game. But we're talking about priorities (I thought).

And I also agree that there are many very dedicated, talented people working to improve the art scene in Atlanta (I know a lot of them). I think the biggest disservice to them is the "tyranny of low expectations" much like our national public schools situation. Everyone gets a gold star. Everyone is above average. "A" for effort.

I think the low expectations in Atlanta stem from a kind of boosterism in which everything is "world-class!!!". Well...we Atlantans have the cultural institutions we deserve. I'm happy you're happy with them. Not everyone is, and some people dare to think Atlanta can raise the bar a bit. We should ignore them and keep repeating "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and people like me!" ;)

[sprtsluvr8]

There is no arguing with such a pessimistic, overly critical point of view. There is a great difference in a positive focus on improvement versus an unconstructive focus on magnifying weaknesses and basically discounting the great strides of the local arts community. Like Andrea said...glass half empty or glass half full?

I won't go into all of the successes of the arts in Atlanta, but considering every aspect - performing arts/theater, music/symphony, visual arts, decorative arts, film, opera, literature, dance, poetry, design, architecture, painting, sculpture, local crafts, photography, etc...I think Atlanta deserves much more credit than some people are giving. But then again, art is produced through an individual's human imagination and is not definitively "good" or "bad". It's subjective in nature and often appreciates over time...many of today's revered artists were not "good" artists in their times, but are now considered masters. It's the nature of art, and we are all critics based on what we like and dislike...and some of us dislike a lot....

[Tombstoner]

There is no arguing with such a pessimistic, overly critical point of view. There is a great difference in a positive focus on improvement versus an unconstructive focus on magnifying weaknesses and basically discounting the great strides of the local arts community. Like Andrea said...glass half empty or glass half full?

I won't go into all of the successes of the arts in Atlanta, but considering every aspect - performing arts/theater, music/symphony, visual arts, decorative arts, film, opera, literature, dance, poetry, design, architecture, painting, sculpture, local crafts, photography, etc...I think Atlanta deserves much more credit than some people are giving. But then again, art is produced through an individual's human imagination and is not definitively "good" or "bad". It's subjective in nature and often appreciates over time...many of today's revered artists were not "good" artists in their times, but are now considered masters. It's the nature of art, and we are all critics based on what we like and dislike...and some of us dislike a lot....

I, of course, think you have a boosteristic, completely uncritical point of view that is useless to argue with.

Of course, you're right -- art is subjective. The quality of the arts scene in Atlanta is also subjective (I've never said otherwise). You like it. I don't. You (and Andrea) are right to say it's a "glass half full or half empty" kind of argument. For me, it boils down to "who is responsible for strides made in the world -- people who are content with the status quo or people who are dissatisfied?" I know your answer and you know mine.

This is probably getting tedious for the rest of the forum; I've pretty much said what I have to say on the topic. Cheers.

[RobMidtowner]

I think a point that's getting lost in all this is that it's not a group of artists/curators/Tombstoner-like-people trying to attract this to Atlanta. It's the Atlanta Sports Council who's involved in the negotiations and from their name it sounds like they really aren't concerned with the arts scene in Atlanta. I agree we should strive for the best in all aspects of cultural offerings but don't get mad at a group for doing exactly what appears to be their primary objective.

[Muskavon]

Robmidtowner, thanks for the post. I tried to convey a similar thought in an earlier post but couldn't find the effective words nor was I able to find such a nice concise way to say it.

[Tombstoner]

I think a point that's getting lost in all this is that it's not a group of artists/curators/Tombstoner-like-people trying to attract this to Atlanta. It's the Atlanta Sports Council who's involved in the negotiations and from their name it sounds like they really aren't concerned with the arts scene in Atlanta. I agree we should strive for the best in all aspects of cultural offerings but don't get mad at a group for doing exactly what appears to be their primary objective.

Robmidtowner -- I'm not sure that is a point that was "lost." The two were never formally linked other than purely speculatively in the ensuing discussion in this forum. I raised the issue of "more expenditure on culture being preferable to a CFHOF" and we were off to the races, but as you say, no official anywhere has ever tied the CFHOF idea to expenditure on the arts in Atlanta. I think everyone understands that.

[RobMidtowner]

^Oh ok, pardon my misinterpretation. :)

Well anyway, I wonder where this would be located since the only available land I'm aware of in the "Tourist Triangle" is supposed to be the location of the new Civil Rights Museum. Any thoughts?

[shanthemanatl]

^Oh ok, pardon my misinterpretation. :)

Well anyway, I wonder where this would be located since the only available land I'm aware of in the "Tourist Triangle" is supposed to be the location of the new Civil Rights Museum. Any thoughts?

How about the parcel where NASCAR was going to be?

[RobMidtowner]

How about the parcel where NASCAR was going to be?

Where was it going to be again? I can't seem to remember, thanks.

[shanthemanatl]

Where was it going to be again? I can't seem to remember, thanks.

I'm not 100% certain, but I think it was going on the surface parking lot at the corner of Andrew Young International Blvd. and Centennial Olympic Park Drive.

[megalopolis]

Yup, on land owned by Ted Turner.

[DonTallPaul]

Hurry up and build the thing already before CityFan jumps in this thread and starts complaining about how Atlanta is nothing like Tokyo, Mexico City, and Hong Kong in terms of skyscrapers and cultural attractions.

[littlepnut]

ok so where at is this going to be at

[CityFan]

Hurry up and build the thing already before CityFan jumps in this thread and starts complaining about how Atlanta is nothing like Tokyo, Mexico City, and Hong Kong in terms of skyscrapers and cultural attractions.
Thank you for reminding me of being in Atlanta. :)

[RobMidtowner]

Atlanta expresses interest in being site of College Hall

By TIM TUCKER
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Published on: 01/06/08

The Atlanta Sports Council has expressed interest in bringing the College Football Hall of Fame here, but there have been no substantive proposals or negotiations, according to Sports Council and Hall of Fame officials.

Steve Hatchell, president and CEO of the National Football Foundation and the College Hall of Fame, said the hall currently has no plans to move from South Bend, Ind.

"Some people have come to us and said that if we ever wanted to move, they would be interested in talking to us," Hatchell said. "But we have a long-term contract with South Bend and have not put out any requests for proposals."

Gary Stokan, president of the Atlanta Sports Council and the Chick-fil-A Bowl, said he told Hatchell that Atlanta — "the nerve center of college football" — would like to have a shot at the Hall of Fame if it decides to consider relocating. Stokan said he also told Hatchell that he thinks a site near downtown's Centennial Olympic Park would be ideal.

But Stokan said he hasn't pursued the matter beyond that point and doesn't know if he will.

"That is as far as it ever went," Stokan said. "We have done no work on such an idea, and the Hall of Fame has given us no indication that they are going to move in the near future."

Stokan said no decision has been made yet on whether to aggressively pursue the issue by making a relocation proposal to the Hall of Fame.

"That may or may not get you anywhere," he said.

The College Football Hall of Fame, established by the National Football Foundation in 1951, moved to South Bend from the Cincinnati area in 1995. The Hall and South Bend have a 40-year contract that is divided into five-year increments with various out clauses. The parties are in the third year of one of those five-year windows.

In South Bend, attendance has lagged behind projections.

Stokan acknowledged that he has kicked around the idea of the Hall in Atlanta for several years.

"I think it could be hugely successful here, but we don't want to do anything to denigrate our relationship with the National Football Foundation, the College Football Hall of Fame or South Bend," he said.