2 new power centres for Hamilton!!!!

[LikeHamilton]

Mady Development Corp. is behind plans to build an $85-million power centre in Stoney Creek. Wal-Mart has signed on as the anchor tenant for the project, to be located on a 17-hectare site on the southwest corner of the QEW and Fifty Road.
Wal-Mart also wants to relocate its existing store at Eastgate Square to a $100-million power centre planned for the corner of Centennial Parkway North and South Service Road. The 12-hectare site, a former scrapyard and the current location of Fox 40 International, was bought by power centre developer SmartCentres for $23.8 million last year. Both stores would resemble Wal-Mart’s Ancaster location, with a full complement of groceries including meats, fruits, vegetables and baked goods, said Wal-Mart spokesperson Kevin Groh.

[beanmedic]

Sweet!

[DC83]

Well considering neither of which are accessible by bus or foot, then I will never visit either one. Too bad.

[SteelTown]

Supercentres no easy sell at city hall

Naomi Powell
The Hamilton Spectator
(Dec 4, 2007)

Wal-Mart is gearing up for a major expansion in Hamilton, with two new superstores planned for the city's eastern end.

Plans for the mega-stores are on hold, however, due to planning issues at city hall.

"We are clearly frustrated," said Hal Kersey, vice-president of planning and development for Mady Development Corp. "We're waiting for the municipality. We can't move ahead without their approvals."

Mady Development is behind plans to build an $85-million power centre in Stoney Creek. Wal-Mart has signed on as the anchor tenant for the project, to be located on a 17-hectare site on the southwest corner of the QEW and Fifty Road.

Wal-Mart also wants to relocate its existing store at Eastgate Square to a $100-million power centre planned for the corner of Centennial Parkway North and South Service Road. The 12-hectare site, a former scrapyard and the current location of Fox 40 International, was bought by power centre developer SmartCentres for $23.8 million last year.

Both stores would resemble Wal-Mart's Ancaster location, with a full complement of groceries including meats, fruits, vegetables and baked goods, said Wal-Mart spokesperson Kevin Groh.

Neither development will go ahead, however, until the city decides what should happen to the land.

Both developers have asked city hall to rezone their sites to allow major retailers such as Wal-Mart. But before that can happen, the city must complete a review of its industrial or "employment" land, said Peter De Iulio, senior project manager in the city's planning department.

The study -- mandated by the province's Places to Grow legislation --has been tabled by city hall pending an analysis of the city's brownfield sites (idle industrial lands that require environmental remediation to redevelop). The completed report will analyze each parcel of land and determine whether there is enough available to allow the land to host shopping centres instead.

SmartCentres "is patiently awaiting" the outcome of the review, said Allan Scully, vice-president of development.

His firm plans to spend several million dollars cleaning up the former scrapyard -- once the property of Chester and Morris Waxman -- on the Centennial Parkway North and South Service Road site. The remaining industrial property will be vacated by Fox 40 International and Fluke Transport by May 1.

"I'm hopeful (the review) will be completed by early spring," he said. "For the time being, we are in limbo."

Kersey said the review shouldn't apply to his application because it was filed in 2005, a year before Places to Grow came into effect.

"Any provincial legislation to do with employment lands shouldn't apply to us," he said.

Though Places to Grow may not apply to Mady because of the date of its application, the power centre proposal must still undergo a standard planning review, said Paul Mallard, director of planning for the city.

"These things take time," he said.

The Stoney Creek site -- bought for $9.5 million by Mady and partner Penady (Stoney Creek) Ltd. -- is designated as a business park, which allows big-box stores, but only ones that service or support industrial customers.

Kersey takes issue with the rule because it excludes major retailers, including grocery and department stores.

To accommodate Wal-Mart and other potential tenants, Mady has asked the city to amend the designation to allow these businesses.

The comprehensive review of employment land should be complete early next year.

It will then go to city council for approval.

[raisethehammer]

yahoo!! Maybe we can put up signs on the QEW that say "Welcome to Walmartville".

Oh wait. We won't need to. The mega store at our major QEW exits will do that for us.

Yep....Hamilton is in dire need of some industrial lands. We built a grand total of zero industrial projects along the Linc...ditto for 403 extension. so far over 10,000 homes are being constructed atop the Red Hill, but zero industry.
So, here's an idea - why don't we take 2 huge pieces of industrial land on exit ramps of one of the busiest highways in Canada, less than an hour from the US border and convert them to more box stores....after all, Hamilton really has a shortage of box stores.

unbelievable....

[MolsonExport]

Blahh!

[Cambridgite]

Inexcusable! :hell:

:yuck:

[SteelTown]

I can see Wal-Mart going to QEW/Centennial Parkway. Centenial Parkway is all mostly retail, big boxes, and car dealerships so it fits in with everything else in the area. The current land is an eyesore and requires massive brownfield cleanup.

This is an area I predict will have a future GO station for the East End. If VIA had it's way then it would have it's Hamilton station there as well.

[raisethehammer]

I never like the argument that "its currently an eyesore so...." yes, you're right. it is an eyesore.
But it is absolute prime industrial land.
both of these interchanges should look like the major interchanges in Halton or Peel with industrial buildings, offices etc.....

heck, we're even building our own right now in between these 2 sites:

http://thbp.ca/

this is why they tell us we need all these bloody highways. And we all know that Hamilton needs more industrial development which brings great taxes, AND decent jobs. We're going to be like a mini-USA with everyone working at Walmart unless you're lucky enough to get a job in T.O.

this is absolutely inexcusable.

I want to hear from all the pro-red hill highway people too. don't sit in silence on this one.
this has been your number 1 arguement for building that road, and others in the area - new industry, new jobs, new taxes etc..... you should be more outraged than any of us.

[DC83]

I agree 100%, rth.
it SHOULD be for an office tower... altho it would be a lot more welcome downtown.

Just b/c it's zoned "industrial" doesn't mean it has to be another scrapyard/steelmill/conola oil plant (which gives Hamilton it's distinctive "smell")...

I have a better option for this site... windmills. Centennial is very windy, the winds come off the lake. Why not optimize the free land (withouth having to affect Confederation Park's natural beauty) and build a couple sustainable energy mills? Hello!? Why is this city SO against/afraid of being Progressive???

Sure it would cost money to build, but it will also MAKE (or save) money in the long run as we could sell the energy or use it for our own city and not have to buy so much off Niagara, etc.

PLUS it'll alleviate the eyesore it is today.

[Cambridgite]

Why is there so little industrial development in Hamilton? I hope your city council isn't satisfied with the city becoming just another bedroom community of Toronto. Even the so-called "bedroom community" of Cambridge is busy developing industrial and office-commercial like there's no tomorrow. And oh yeah...SCREW WAL-MART! :P (I feel more like a planning student every time I say it)

[DC83]

Why is there so little industrial development in Hamilton?

b/c they're all so scared of being progressive and investing money they "don't have" to service lands...
So they roll over onto their backs and let the housing/walmart developers pay for everything.

However, in the case of Clappison's Corner (Hwys 5&6 in Waterdown), the city actually paid to have Walmart's land serviced for them. Disgusting.

[SteelTown]

Why is there so little industrial development in Hamilton? I hope your city council isn't satisfied with the city becoming just another bedroom community of Toronto. Even the so-called "bedroom community" of Cambridge is busy developing industrial and office-commercial like there's no tomorrow.

Because your land is green land, which is what industrial companies perfer, our land is former industrial sites that requires brownfield cleanup.

To have green land Hamilton would need to expand it's urban boundary and well others aren't too fond of that idea especially creating industrial land around the airport.

[raisethehammer]

It doesn't get any 'greener' than QEW and Fifty Road.
It doesn't get any 'greener' than Glanbrook Industrial Park (still empty after 25 years)
It doesn't get any 'greener' than all the land on top of Red Hill (10,000 homes, tons of big boxes and NOT A SINGLE industrial plant)
It doesn't get any 'greener' than the farmland along Hwy 2/403 (more boxes and homes)

The list goes on and on. There has been a TON of empty 'greenfield' land opened up in Hamilton in the past several years.
Industry continues to pass us by for many other reasons...image, taxes, image, image, city hall, image, city hall, city hall etc......

They are a bunch of morons trying to run a city.
And for the record, the homebuilders and box builders don't even come close to covering the cost of servicing land. Existing urban taxpayers do.
If big box development and suburban residential sprawl were able to MAKE money for the city, Hamilton would be doing great.
The fact is, we are spiraling further and further into debt BECAUSE we continue to subsidize sprawl and box development. Doing more of a bad thing will only bring more bad results. Council knows that, yet doesn't care.
They'll be retired living the high life off taxpayer money by the time the province has to come in and take over a bankrupt city with mini-old faithfuls shooting up into the sky all over town.

Never mind a huge fountain in the harbour. Someday (and fairly soon) you'll be able to stand atop the brow and see dozens of them shooting up from all over the city.
But don't worry. We've always got another few hundred thousand bucks for the next homebuilder that shows up.

[SteelTown]

It doesn't get any 'greener' than QEW and Fifty Road.
It doesn't get any 'greener' than Glanbrook Industrial Park (still empty after 25 years)
It doesn't get any 'greener' than all the land on top of Red Hill (10,000 homes, tons of big boxes and NOT A SINGLE industrial plant)


No industrial company wants QEW and Fifty Road, in fact home builders wanted to build homes instead but the city rejected and still waiting for an industrial company
Both Glanbrook and top of Red Hill which is part of Glanbrook is currently getting serviced right now thanks to Federal and Provincial funding help

[HAMRetrofit]

The Centenial Parkway location seems like it is borderline okay. They are cleaning up a contaminated brownfield site which in its current state does not have high potential for redevelopment as a business park. The project is just a relocation from a mall so does not increase big box capacity in that area in a completely unhealthy way.

The fifty road location is less than ideal. That site has prime potential for future industrial business park development and converting it to big box retail will only open up the area for more suburban development. With Walmart often comes all the other 'players'. ie. sprawling low density residential, fast food, and gas stations.

Something the city could do to be somewhat progressive is offer to buy the land off the developers in exchange for city owned brownfield or greyfield land close to downtown and offer tax incentives for redevelopment. The city could look at this as an investment since they will not need to build infrastructure to service the Walmart and will increase the capacity of retail in an underserviced area.

In the future if there is demand develop the fifty road site as an industrial park.

[raisethehammer]

I'm sorry Steeltown...I'm not meaning to argue with you at all, but I just have a hard time with these arguements from the city.
They always say "industrial builders don't want this or that".
Yet they don't seem to mind in London or Waterloo or Toronto or Ottawa.
Industrial developers have gone crazy snapping up pieces of land identical to QEW and Fifty Rd all along the QEW.
Look at the huge building Paelleta built at QEW and ??(somewhere in burlington, not sure of the exit).
Same in Oakville and the 403 through Oakville.
More office buildings are being built right now in St Catharines at QEW as you come into town.
403/QEW interchange in Burlington, same thing.

I don't buy the city's garbage anymore. They've always got an excuse to allow more homes or box stores and NO real investment or REAL taxes to be generated for our dying city.

I'm no fan of the highway-style development model, yet I realize if we're going to have these highways built, let's at least use them properly.
We didn't with Linc, 403 Extension, we aren't with Red Hill and now we're even wasting the QEW - possibly the easiest highway in Canada to make money off of and we might even find a way to screw that up.

Not meaning to rant, but this is crazy. I hate the debt we're racking up in order to build all these highways. I at least want to see well-paying jobs and industrial development be the result.
We've been lied to for decades and told that "this next highway will be the one".
The lie continues and so does the massive debt load.

[SteelTown]

I believe it was just recently that Hamilton's business tax finally began to be competitive compared to the GTA and Southwestern Ontario - that's why Maple Leaf wanted to relocate to Hamilton (didn't happen). Another problem is Hamilton spends less on the Economic Department compared to any other city in Southern Ontario, not sure about the Niagara Region. Mayor Fred has been trying really hard to change that, increase the Economic department budget, but it's been difficult. I think the latest news is that Hamilton and the Province might work together in funding some sort of economic department to recruit new businesses and more brownfield funding from the province.

[DC83]

I think the latest news is that Hamilton and the Province might work together in funding some sort of economic department to recruit new businesses and more brownfield funding from the province.

I forget where I heard that, but I believe it's true.

I thought the City wanted to build a "Welcome to Hamilton" Centre at this location?
Wow... this (big box) site would fit rather conveniently w/ the Welcome Centre & VIA Station, eh? Looks like Valeri will win afterall.

Why not just build a giant sign there: "This Way to Centre Mall"! hahaha ya right. Centre Mall doesn't allow for sprawl! Only infil... and who in their right mind on council would support infil??

[SteelTown]

If I had to take a bet I would say the city will approve Centennial Parkway/QEW and deny Fifty Road/QEW. If the city can deny home builders for Fifty Road then they can deny Wal-Mart.

I bet the city will use the Wal-Mart location at Centennial as a major bus terminal. If there's ever a future East End GO Station it would be at this site. VIA would have a hard on if they could get this site, right next to QEW and far enough from Aldershot.

[DC83]

^^ I bet VIA would prefer Fifty/QEW as there are hectares upon hectares of available parking! But it's right next to the Grimsby VIA... I'm sure they'd get rid of it in a second.

And I'm not 100% against Centennial/QEW Walmart... however, I know there are a lot of other options for this site.
If the city builds adequate pedesrtian accesibility to this new centre, then it wouldn't be such a huge issue to me. However, the only way to access anything north of Barton on Centennial is by driving.
Create a walkway/bikeway from Barton to Confederation Park (with access to Home Deopt, the business ctr on the west side of the street incl Holiday Inn) and then I'll be a bit happier.

Re streetscape the entire stretch from King to Confederation Park with wide sidewalks, trees, art, furniture... and I'll be VERY happy! Not likely tho.

[fastcarsfreedom]

So the sky is falling, is it? The city is doomed because Wal*Mart wants to build two stores in Stoney Creek--one of which we've already known about for months. Seriously, all of you need to get a hold of yourselves and take a sober second look at this. As soon as I saw today's Spec article I absolutely knew I could come over to the Forum and find everyone having a field day with this--all despite the fact that the city administration you all detest so is doing quite an effective job at bureaucratic stonewalling on both projects. Do any of you realize how much breathless hyperbole you use about how the city is "dying" and how everything bad here always seems to go back to Bentonville, Arkansas. I've said it about developments in the past--it's really only the presence of W*M that gets anyone here bent out of shape. Do you realize how much your vision is clouded by Wal*Mart? Seems to me there is no Wal*Mart being built at 5&6--yet over months of debate suddenly the fact that the city paid to have the land serviced MUST mean that Wal*Mart is part of it. (Sorry folks, it's Zellers, Canadian Tire and Rona).

We are talking about two--count 'em, two sites. Releasing these two sites to retail development does not sink Hamilton's EcDev future. Retail and homebuilders are here because the area is desirable--it's a place people want to live--that is far from being a bad thing. All of Burlington's Service Road developments are mixed--retail/industrial/office--and while I'm on topic--this Forum is suddenly pro-Burlington? The retail component does not eliminate a single future use of those lands (although I doubt industrial development will return to the Centennial area).

As for business park development--I'm the first guy to call for more of it. The Ancaster and Clappison parks have both done well--and seeing more development on the highway corridors and in the Glanbrook parks is something that will benefit the entire region. The city needs to pursue these opportunities with far more vigor--but let's not forget, the highways JUST opened and some of the taxation challenges were JUST overcome--given time, there will be more interest. Of course, I'm sure the reception Maple Leaf got will put some pause out there in the business community--which takes me back to me previous statements--that the Hamilton area wants development--but only if it's done OUR way. Aerotropolis?...a great intermodal development opportunity that seemed to instantly unite the peak-oil crowd and the NIMBY crowd all at once. We get a canola oil plant and someone bitches that it smells odd.

Now, I've saved my real rant for the sudden turn this Forum has taken. Suddenly, an "urbanist" forum is talking about highway service road development and extoling the virtues of development in Burlington (what is that coloquial name you usually refer to it by?....hmmmmm). As frustrated as I often am with some of what I read here--you have--in the past, stuck to your guns and stayed on-point about the sort of future you want for Hamilton--now suddenly you are half on the other side--talking about the potential for development created by highways (as long as it's development done YOUR way)...I'm sorry to say it, but playing turncoat just to fight off Wal*Mart reallly harms your credibility--there are dozens of anti-W*M sites and forums out there--if that's the real purpose behind this discourse--perhaps your arguments are better taken there. I mean, I've heard nothing from this Forum but infill for the last two years, and now you're upset that they're building a Wal*Mart at Fifty Road? FIFTY ROAD, suddenly you acknowledge that there is life beyond Kenilworth Ave?

[markbarbera]

:previous:

Oi! That's quite the rant! I think you need to review the comments here. There certainly hasn't been an overall anti-WalMart slant in the discussion.

For the record, I do not have any issue over what big box goes in at Centennial and QEW, be it WalMart, Zellers, COSTCO, it's really the fact that this spot could (and should) be developed more wisely than as a big box outlet. It is already zoned for industrial use and is a brownfield already serviced for industrial use. Placing a retail plaza of any kind at this location is a waste of prime industrial land easily accessible by a highway and two parkways (Centennial and Red Hill). The city should be making every effort to fill it as industrial, or at least mid-to-high density commercial space.

A big box outlet is a total waste here, especially with plans in the progress to convert Centre Mall to this format. The owners of Centre Mall must be thrilled by their potential investment being royally screwed by allowing a similar development in such close proximity.

As far as I can see, the city is performing due diligence here. It is in its best interest to attract higher-paying industrial employment to this city, not another pool of minimum wage part time jobs. The poverty rate in this city is high enough, thank you.

As far as Fifty Road development goes, a close look is necessary here as we are talking greenspace development requiring new service at a time when the city can't afford repairing existing infrastructure. Also, how does Places to Grow impact development of this area?

[chris k]

I think this lot at Centennial would be great for a building similar to the parkdale industrial mall inbetween barton and burlington st(not exactly sure where). It would fit perfectly as an entrance point from Toronto to the 'business park' and i think it would do very well judging by the location right beside the highway and on a busy street(to remain that way?) The most important feature of this would be perfect transition from the industry coming off the QEW to the big box stores on Centennial.

Well thats my two cents...

[raisethehammer]

I didn't read the above book from fastcars but saw a lot of 'W*M' splashed throughout.
my opposition has nothing to do with Walmart. It has everything to do with being lied to nonstop from the old bags at city hall.
billions of MY tax dollars being spent as a massive subsidy for the homebuilders and box store builders.
NOT for any real development that we're always promised. NOT for real jobs. NOT for a wise use of land. I hate all the highway development to begin with but I'm not stupid enough to want them to be mis-used once they're built. Highways are such a waste of money. The only possible saving grace is to line them with industry.
But in Hamilton we don't do that. We line them with homes and box stores and line the pockets of those developers while we're at it.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I gotta call you out on this RTH--I invest the time to read the arguments of others and not dismiss them out of hand. You quite fervently requested that "Pro Red Hill" people not sit this debate out--and I haven't. I took the time out of the afternoon to sit down and write what I feel is a well thought out response. Had you taken the time to read it you would see that I too called for more industrial/research development to go hand-in-hand with what's been propsed. Innovation Park along 403 is a great example, as are the Ancaster and Clappison Parks. I want to see more, believe me. The fact that you are so completely dismissive of my submission (again, made at your request) angers and disappoints me. Do your negative feelings toward Wal*Mart color your arguments--frankly, I think it does, but there was a helluva a lot more to my submission than that. The truth is, we want the same things for this city--prosperity, success and a brighter future, we just differ when it comes to the best path to take to achieve that. Many of your arguments have merit--but they are always peppered with accusations of THEM, THEY, THOSE PEOPLE, THE SUBURBS--all be damned.

What is most tiring is your firmly held belief that all of these development issues are Hamilton-specific. I'd be more than happy to send you some links illustrating the fact that all the same issues and arguments are happening where I currently live, and no matter where else you go in North America, someone is making the same arguments you and I are both making here today.

[raisethehammer]

hey fastcars...actually, I did go back later and read your post. Just didn't have time the last time I was online.
As far as your suggestion looking at more industrial research, I think that's what the city is currently doing in delaying these projects. I spoke with someone at city hall a couple of years ago and they told me that they were putting an end to the practice of coverting industrial land to other uses since we are so desperate for investment and job creation. that's all they are doing here too.
Hamilton's media stinks though and always makes it sound like city hall is just sitting back delaying a permit for no reason. That's not true in this case.
The fact is, we need more industrial development in Hamilton. I think you and I are asking for the same thing, but in a different way.
Sure, I'm no fan of highway development, but I at least want it to be done properly once the roads are built. Otherwise, all of us end up paying city debt for decades because we spent billions on highways and then didn't build anything worthwhile along them. Enough is enough.

I heard CHML earlier interview the developer who said they sent in a similar application in Barrie on the same date as this one in Hamilton and the Barrie one just got approved.
Well, great. Let's add Barrie to the list of fabulous, world class cities that Hamilton should model ourselves after. We've already got Borington and the hot town of Brantford to copy.
We're really setting our sights low, if you know what I mean.

City hall should really delay this thing now...teach this clown a lesson for going to the media and trying to skirt a very clearly explained piece of policy in the city right now - no industrially zoned land being converted.
I hope they stick with it too. We need industry more than 2 more walmarts.

[Cambridgite]

City hall should really delay this thing now...teach this clown a lesson for going to the media and trying to skirt a very clearly explained piece of policy in the city right now - no industrially zoned land being converted.
I hope they stick with it too. We need industry more than 2 more walmarts.

If this were to go to the OMB, hopefully the city would win. The 'Places to Grow' Act prohibits the conversion of employment lands into other uses. This is to prevent the spread of bedroom communities. The only issue I could see arising is if big-box retail falls under the category of 'employment lands'. Hopefully the province has fine-tuned that policy enough that the Wal Mart application can be refused.

[LikeHamilton]

You know that the Power Centre on Fifty Road is not being built for Hamilton? It is being built to service the fast growing Grimsby area.
If you remember the big fight that Loblaws went through to build their Superstore on the QEW. People fought it saying it would kill the business district in town and the other grocery stores in Grimsby. That went to the OMB and Loblaws won. This is direct competition with the Superstore and the people of Grimsby have no say in it.
Though this is a change where people will come to Hamilton to spend their money instead of people leaving the city to shop.

[fastcarsfreedom]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I'm certain that Centennial/QEW is a fait accompli, QEW/Fifty Road is probably another matter--my guess here is that retail will fall under "employment lands" (as it should)--but that's not to say there shouldnt be a continued emphasis on attracting other businesses to these areas. Mady is a solid developer--based here in Windsor--they've done various projects from big-box retail, to smaller scale retail on inner-city brownfields and downtown office-to-condo conversions as well as suburban business and office parks. OMB or no OMB, Mady is not going to roll over on the issue, I can assure you of that.

Now, let me tell you, I am no fan at all of the OMB--I think it's a completely counter-productive body--and that's coming from someone who's very pro-development. What utterly floors me is when private businesses go running to the OMB to avoid competition--the free market is the free market as far as I'm concerned, and businesses ought to compete as opposed to hiding behind bureaucracy. As for Loblaws-though I'm glad they won in Grimsby, my sympathy is limited--they themselves have run to the OMB many times--you may recall that there was once a ban on the Costco in Ancaster (nee Price Club) selling meat because Loblaws went running to the OMB in an effort to "protect" their property in Ancaster (Fortinos, nee Zehrs). Burlington squandered how much in the way of taxpayer dollars trying to fight off Wal*Mart? There is no doubt in my mind that this is "Grimbsy's" Wal*Mart--obviously Mady felt Hamilton would be the more favorable place to invest. Do I have sympathy that the people in Grimsby "have no say" in the matter of the Fifty Road Wal*Mart--ummm...I have none--this is a free market the last time I checked--development in Hamilton is Hamilton's business.

Again, pro-development on this end--whether it be retail, industrial, corporate--whatever--but Hamilton has to be willing to take development not solely on it's own terms. Maple Leaf is a perfect example of that.

As for Barrie--I suspect most would consider Barrie a prosperous city--albeit entirely different than Hamilton. Nonetheless, the same forces are at play in both cities--the geographic proximity to the GTA is not something that is going to go away--it's not something a moat or stone wall will solve--the truth is Hamilton is going to develop in a way that mostly reflects it's geography--that's unavoidable--it will not develop the way it would sitting out alone on a prairie somewhere. Time to embrace proximity as opposed to denying it exists.

[markbarbera]

The city should not change the zoning for the Centennial site to allow this big box development. I have given my reasons before, but to summarize:

1) The site is best suited for industrial use, given its proximity to QEW, Centennial and Red Hill Parkways. To change it to retail to accomodate a big box would be throwing away prime industrial space.

2) Hamilton cannot justify the infrastructure cost associated with new industrial zones such as aerotropolis if it removes this zoning from existing, serviced lands. THis is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

3) Hamilton needs to focus on bringing quality employment to the city. The kind of jobs associated with retail developments does not enrich the employment pool, while industry contributes to a better paid workforce. Changing the zone from industrial to allow retail forces down the potential wage earning level associated to the land in question. I was sad to see the missed opportunity with Maple Leaf Foods. As it turns out, the company ended up abandoning the meat processing segment of their business anyway, so in a way we dodged a bullet. Regardless, the opportunity was missed because the proposed site was perceived as unsuitable by nearby residents. Whether or not it would have negatively impacted the neighbourhood is a moot point now, but the Centennial site would have been far more suitable for this line of business.

4) How can the city justify another big box development in such close proximity to the Centre Mall redevelopment? What kind of message are we sending to the developers at this site - glad you're investing in the east end, and to show our gratitude we're going to let your tenant's main competitors set up shop in your backyard and totally f**k up your demographics.

fastcarsfreedom, please look at the bigger picture. I think your overzealous pro-retail-development bias is clouding your judgement here. Big Box stores have a significantly lower impact on the economic well-being of a city compared to the much more favourable impact of industrial development. Imagine if, in a rush for development, the old Camco site was rezoned to allow big box stores a couple of years back. The Innovation Park and all the benefits it will bring to Hamilton (research funds, well paid scientists, spin off industries) would have been lost to a neighbouring city, so to add a hundred minimum wage, part-time jobs to the city's employment base. Hamilton has made too many bad decisions in the past to allow this rezoning to go unchallenged. The city should be praised for being thorough in its review of the zoning requests, not scorned.

[SteelTown]

From SeanTrans, highlighted the land Wal-Mart wants at Centennial

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a382/hammer396/RHC1.jpg

[miketoronto]

Is Hamilton City Council serious about reviving downtown or not? If they are, then they will say no to these developments. When will they learn that they must put a stop to this sprawl?

Infact instead of allowing more power centres and malls, I would say Hamilton could go the other way and look at demalling the city :) This sounds really communist, but just think.

DEMALLING HAMILTON
-A structured multiyear plan to shift the focus of the city from the edges back to the centre. The plan will call for for the closure of all regional malls in Hamilton. Starting first with Centre Mall, followed by Eastgate Square, Limeridge Mall, and then Meadowlands.

retailers will be given locations in the core downtown area, and new retailers must open in the core, unless they are able to show that they can not find a suitable building and location in the core area, and need more room(i.e. Ikea).

[Cambridgite]

^That does sound REALLY communist. :haha:

[SteelTown]

From SeanTrans, highlighted the land Wal-Mart wants at Centennial

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a382/hammer396/RHC1.jpg

I just realized that big white box to the left of the highlighted area is Home Depot haha. A Wal-Mart in that area won't seem so foreign. The gap is the CN track, the track VIA uses, hmmm.

[raisethehammer]

not to take this conversation way off topic (by the way, great chat so far), but we don't have a free market economic system here. Not even close.
In a true free market, suburban sprawl and lowest possible density land-uses wouldn't exist.
The only reason they exist is (what some researchers have called) thanks to the largest social program in the history of western civilization - the government-built (read, taxpayer) infrastructure and insane zoning changes made over the years to support sprawl. No business person in their right mind, operating in a true free market would ever decide to buy a piece of land nowhere near anything, and then put single family homes on it with no amenites, no downtown, no shops, nothing. The only reason they're able to do that is because taxpayers are on the hook for trillions upon trillons of dollars worth of highways and roads snaking across the countryside.
In a true free market, we'd see more new development look like Westdale, or Ottawa St neighbourhood of Concession St - not full downtowns, but everything you need in walking distance, connected to the nearby big city with transit or short roadways.

My two cents for the night. not meaning to rant, it's just that this topic bugs me...we're closer to being a communist society than most people realize - the media does a great job of spinning this to sound like a 'free market' (because they're in on it along with big oil and big food and big auto etc...) -check out their largest advertisers.

[LikeHamilton]

From SeanTrans, highlighted the land Wal-Mart wants at Centennial

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a382/hammer396/RHC1.jpg

The big white box at the top of the picture is the new Lowes store. I looks bigger than the Home Depot. Grand Opening Events from December 14 - 16, 2007

[BCTed]

the media does a great job of spinning this to sound like a 'free market' (because they're in on it along with big oil and big food and big auto etc...) -check out their largest advertisers.

So the biggest media advertisers are big companies? Goodness me --- this proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that we do not live in a free market. I have also heard that big pharma, big tech, and big retail are also big advertisers, which is even further proof that our market is anything but free.

And here I was thinking that CNN was sponsored by the Locke Street Bakery.

[HAMRetrofit]

De-malling is a ridiculous idea. Consumers will just leave the city to shop elsewhere ie. neighboring malls and power centers in Burlington, Oakville and Brantford. This will further deplete the city's tax base and lead to declines in real estate value.

The idea of urban development is to pack the city with as much amenities as possible not to begin discriminating and taking them away.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I'm generally not in favor of dismissing people's ideas here out-of-hand, but in the last several weeks miketoronto's posts have become increasingly bizarre. Mike, someone spiking your brew down at Coffee Time, or what?

Good post RTH, needless to say I couldn't disagree more--but that's more a political conversation than anything else. In short, I summarize, the business person who bought up the land that wasn't near anything to build houses did so because the land was cheap relative to the land in urban areas--once people were living on the cheap land--business followed--that's pretty much free-market economics. It's easy to forget that both the U.S. and Canada went through some serious population growth in the past 50 years--and the vast majority of urban areas (with a few notable exceptions) have not depopulated. When the Eisenhower administration bore the Interstate Highway program it was designed as an engine for economic prosperity--and clearly, if you look at business and commercial growth in the U.S. since the 1950s, it has followed those paths--so though the skeleton was certainly taxpayer funded infrastructure--the flesh has been private investment. Though one may find "big oil, big food, big auto" to be distasteful--they remain the pillars of North America's economy.

On a completed unrelated note--since it's been several months since I've been back in that neck o' the woods--I can't tell you how bloody disoriented I was looked at the aerial shot of the QEW/Centennial interchange--it took a good few seconds before the light went on and I realized why I was looking at two freeways...duh.

[fastcarsfreedom]

And you are correct--Lowe's is larger. HD launched a new store format around the time that the Centennial store was built--and it is physically smaller than first-generation stores (such as the one at the Meadowlands). Lowe's response in the U.S. has been larger stores--and they have been very successful as a competitor to the HD juggernaut. Look for them to open a "shadow" store near every HD--again, a strategy that has worked well for them in the past.

[raisethehammer]

I don't think Mike used the right term in the above post about closing malls.
De-malling is actually a trend ripping across the US and starting to hit Canada - its where an old mall site is reconstructed into a more walkable, mixed use development with retail, housing, offices, cafes etc....

I really don't think that the old suburban malls - Eastgate/Centre/Limeridge are the leading factors in downtown's decline, although they certainly didn't help.
The real problem occured when downtown built their own mall in an effort to compete with the burbs.
It can't.
Downtown needs to be a unique, vibrant place - think Byward Market in Ottawa or any number of neighbourhoods in downtown TO.
Downtown cant and shouldn't try to compete with the suburbs on their level - highways, interchange ramps, free parking galore.
Downtowns should be entirely different. Thankfully I slowly see the seeds of that being planted in Hamilton, yet the mindset in groups like the downtown BIA continue to hold the core back because they are too suburban minded - where's the acres of free parking?? why are there posters on the street poles??
They need to embrace urbanism and all it's forms. The suburbs have mega billboards that blaze light into people's bedrooms at night. Downtown has a pile of little clubs and businesses that rely on human beings walking by and shopping/eating there. Signs on poles are more effective than mega billboards on the 403 or Main Street.
Less free parking and more destinations should be goal (again, TO and Ottawa).

Oh, and Ted...I didn't make the assinine assumption that because the biggest companies are advertisers that means we don't have a true free market.
I gave very clear reasons (in the form of trillions of dollars) why we don't have a free market. Nice try though.
Remember, the free market guys are always the ones screaming for the government to just get out of the way and let them do business. I say "great idea". No more $1.5 billion annually to the oil industry anymore in Canada (last year we gave them even more).
No more free land servicing and highway interchange construction.
They want government right out of the way, that should include the money too.

[raisethehammer]

And you are correct--Lowe's is larger. HD launched a new store format around the time that the Centennial store was built--and it is physically smaller than first-generation stores (such as the one at the Meadowlands). Lowe's response in the U.S. has been larger stores--and they have been very successful as a competitor to the HD juggernaut. Look for them to open a "shadow" store near every HD--again, a strategy that has worked well for them in the past.


I went by that new Lowes the other day...my first thought was "why does the parking always have to be in front at the streetlevel?"
Then as I stood there looking at the store, I thought "gee, it's good that the store is way back there...if it was right at the street level people across the road would look out their bedroom windows and see a massive "LO" or "ES"
depending on what view they had. the place is insanely huge, or maybe it just seems bigger than other boxes since it's plunked into a residential area.

[SteelTown]

There has been "de-malling" happening in Hamilton, look at Centre Mall and Mountain Plaza. Centre Mall's Farmers' Market is moving to Ottawa Street BIA, if Yale actually cared about Jackson Square they would sweet talk Sears into moving to Jackson Square instead of it closing up for good. It appears majority of the mom and pop stores from Mountain Plaza will be relocating to Concession Street BIA.

[markbarbera]

I believe Sears is looking to move into Eastgate should WalMart end up moving out to the proposed Centennial/QEW site.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Mark is correct, I believe that is the plan--for Sears to build on the Wal*Mart pad at Eastgate.

As for miketoronto--his suggestion wasn't "organic" demalling--but something constructed and mandated. If you look at the so-called "demalling" trend across North America--it's not occuring at "regional" or "super-regional" malls, but at smaller centres (MPM) or centres whose demographic has changed (Centre Mall)--it is a trend--but frankly speaking you don't see large, successful malls like Lime Ridge being demolished and/or redeveloped.

As for the Downtown Vs. Suburban debate--I do agree on some level. Downtown is a unique destination--it has aspects and eccentricities that no suburb can compete with--this can and should be downtown's strength. That being said, the notion that Jackson Square somehow killed downtown is something I've never grasped. Firstly, Jackson Square's opening pre-dates that of Eastgate, Lime Ridge or Mapleview--only Centre Mall and Burlington Mall predated it--so Jackson Square was developed as it was--not as a "catch up"--and as we've debated many times over in this space--for a solid 20 or so years, Jackson Square worked, and thrived. It's inter-connections with Copps, the Market, the Library and the Sheraton uniquely place it--I've said before and will say again, Jackson Square absolutely has a role to play in downtown's future.

As for Sears moving downtown--as much as I'd like to be proven wrong, fuhgedaboutit. Sears has always been, and remains, a suburban operator. The company can barely stand running the old Eaton's stores it inherited in select cities such as Toronto--it's scaled back the size of the Toronto store repeatedly since taking it over--and just did so again. It hangs onto that space for it's pure real estate value--and to keep any new entrants at bay...pardon the pun.

[raisethehammer]

one more thing....the one-way streets in the 1950's did the most damage to downtown Hamilton.
Ask any old business owner from back then to show you their sales receipts...I've seen some that are truly stunning. Week after week after week their sales went down, down, down beginning after the streets went 1-way. downtown needs people walking, sitting, talking, having a good time.
Not blasting through on their way to some strip mall somewhere.
Planning was already underway for many more suburban malls in the area, including Limeridge and Eastgate...Jackson was meant to be the 'downtown response' to those malls. King and James was thriving, full of business. We tore everything down, sucked the life indoors and the novelty wore off eventually. people go to suburban malls to walk around indoors...downtown should be a people place full of life.
yes, now jackson has a role to play in the future and I believe it can work if reno'd properly and oriented to the street.
but again, the one-way streets remain the number one obstacle to generating the real street life that a successful downtown needs.

[DC83]

Although I agree a lot, one-way streets is just ONE of many reasons why downtown Hamilton fell into what it is today.
Don't forget about:
-an increasing automotive industry after the war
-creation of suburbs which would require these new car owners to drive to and from their homes to, say, downtown
-change in lifestyle which we can partially blame on cars (ie: drive-thrus)
-80's to 90's recession. The #1 reason for why retail ran away from downtown to begin with
-Urban Renewal (just look how busy Yonge/Queen are compare to Queen/Bay in Toronto). There's a reason why Yonge St is a destination and Queen between Bay/University'ish is a wasteland: Big, Ugly, 70's style cement blocks! Just like "civic square" which destroyed York Blvd.

EDIT: Wow... reading that over it seems as though I've got quite the hate-on for cars :S hahaha

Key Point... we know what destroyed downtown. Suburban Malls did not do it alone. And suburban Big Box Centres will not destroy what we've worked so hard to bring back to the core. A Walmart in the burbs wont single-handidly destroy the downtown... a Walmart IN the Core surely would.

Aslong as we can keep attracting those who find urban living as exciting/attractive as the majority of us, then we need to capitalize on that and have them live downtown Hamilton rather than Toronto. How? Well we've all come up with a million great ideas.
If someone wants to spend their lives destroying the earth with their fossil fuel emissions as they drive from drive-thru to drive-thru, idling for 5-10 mins at a time, then drive from store to store rather than walk and therefor opening themselves up for obesity/diabetes, etc... then hell, let the gluttons be gluttons. We'll have fun downtown :) ... and stay fit, too!!

[raisethehammer]

you SHOULD have a 'hate-on' for cars if you really want to see downtown turn around.
The Downtown BIA loves cars and therefore will never oversee a turnaround in that district (until they get rid of their leadership).
Downtowns simply are NOT for cars. parking lots are the biggest waste of prime space in the downtown. Hence, the reason why so many of us on here have been peeved at the city's seeming refusal to look at LRT. It would do wonders for downtown and free up all these stupid lots to actually be made something worthwhile.

[HAMRetrofit]

Cars should not be hated, they should be managed. The city needs to develop a balanced transportation network and work with property owners to develop buildings. They need to work within the real economic conditions of the properties. They need to develop agency for achieving results.

For example, Yale operates Jackson Square and owns several of the surface parking lots that surround the mall. They don't seem to desire developing them as buildings. I am beginning to see that this is not a coincidence. Does anyone have information on how much parking they own surrounding the mall?

[raisethehammer]

they seem to own a ton....
just watching a documentary on Walmart...my goodness, I hope they never come downtown. such a vacuum effect everywhere they go.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Fair to say RTH that the documentary you were watching was anti-Wal*Mart...fair enough, there are those out there who are opposed to the company and it's principles. However, these anti-Wal*Mart documentaries are no more gospel than the films produced by the company to promote itself. The so-called "Wal*Mart" effect where downtowns in small-town America died because of Wal*Mart is a farce. Mass merchandising and the so-called "vacuum" was more-or-less the art of Kmart, Penney and Sears--all of which had national reach long before WMT. Through logistics and inventory control, WMT "perfected" a concept already pioneered by others.

The Yonge/Queen vs. Bay/Queen comparison is beyond apples and oranges. Yonge has it's own "big ugly cement block" in the name of the Eaton Centre--but Yonge is retail and entertainment centered as a district--Bay and Queen would be no more "lively" today had the original bank buildings not been replaced, as they were, in the 70s.

Again, not to be picky, but Civic Square planning reached well back into the 60s, if not the late 50s, under Mayor Jackson and Mayor Copps. It's a shame some of the elements that existed before renewal (namely City Hall and Market Square) were not preserved--it certainly would've made the project less monolithic. Eastgate, to the best of my knowledge, was completed in 1973--so perhaps it was planned concurrently with Jackson Square--I really don't know. However Lime Ridge, which gets all the blame, didn't open until 1981--so I doubt it was conceptualized during Jackson's initial development--there were friggin' dairy cattle grazing immediately behind Eaton's when Lime Ridge opened--no joke, in 1981 Upper Wentworth was in the hinterlands. Let's also not forget that Yale was still expanding Jackson Square into the mid 1980s when the SLC/Sheraton and Copps were built. If you mentally shrink Jackson Square back down to just Phase I and Phase II and take the City Centre out of the equation--you have a full, reasonably healthy mall--retail was overbuilt, no doubt about it. A couple of well placed residential towers in JS would have a huge impact and needs to be an element of renos, whenever they may take place.

[raisethehammer]

yup we definitely need residential in JS...it was supposed to happen originally, but got scrapped.
IF only we could go back and not do Eaton Centre or the final phases of Jackson...downtown would be much healthier today.

and for whatever it's worth...the folks who did this documentary simply went coast to coast across Canada and interviewed small business owners in towns and cities that had Walmarts arrive recently...many of them directly pinned WM expansion as hurting their sales and in many of the towns, businesses that had existed for 40, 50 or more years had closed down within a few years of their arrival.
they spoke with store owners, BIA heads, townspeople etc....it wasn't some made-up 'farce'.

One great point that was made at the end of the film, which I'd never thought of was this:
They said how many people these days say things like "why can't we get government to be run like a successful business?"
So they looked at that - Walmart, after all is the most successful one that exists.

their findings were nothing that we all don't already know - low wages, sweatshops, absolutely everything being controlled from Bentonville -building temps, hours of operation, exact source of merchandise, managers outfits, offering coffee to 'activists' who show up (these guys were getting free coffees like it was going out of style during the film. lol).
I must admit it was funny how they edited it together...different stores, different towns, different managers all coming out with the same round tray holding cups of coffee - "can I offer you guys a coffee?" over and over.
The easy conclusion to arrive it was that if walmart was an economic or governmental system it would be more communist than anything. People who ask for them to also run government should be careful what they ask for.
By the way, they also chatted about WM's huge internet database and the fact that they have more personal info on you and I than most government agencies.
Ultimately, I think their goal is similar to communism - make everyone dependant on them.
People working for the most propserous retailer in America are making some of the lowest wages in America. don't think that those two facts are unrelated....at any rate....I'm sure I've just ruined an otherwise nice chat so far. lol.
:) just my rant for the day.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Central control of operations is not unusual at all in the retail industry today. Home Depot has used the very same system--with everything from store temperatures to payroll being controlled from Atlanta--it's the practice that most of the highest achieving retailers use. Wal*Mart's centralization in Bentonville, including acquiring customer data, has been a key element to their success, has allowed them to control inventory crises which have befallen competitors (Loblaw has been trying to untangle itself from an inventory mess related to RCSS in Ontario for over a year). I'd be curious to see the documentary--however, it sounds like it's "edited" in Michael Moore style--in other words, it's no more unbiased than a corporate-produced film--which was the point of my post.

As for wages--Wal*Mart's pay scale is in-line with other mass merchandisers--the Targets, Kmarts, etc, of the world. I see no reason why Wal*Mart as the largest, should somehow be exposed to more scrutiny based solely on it's size. If you want to make an argument about mass merchandisers as a whole paying minimum wage--fine, but it's not plausible to single out a particular entrant in the category. To suggest Wal*Mart ought to raise it's compensation for it's employees is to dismiss it's business model out of hand entirely--the company's operation is based on lowest possible overhead--I'm not making a judgement on it--just calling it as I see it. As for fears that it would somehow "take over the world"--look at financials over the past several fiscal years and you'll see that Wal*Mart's growth pattern has matured, it is not killing off it's competitors wantonly--Target has solidified it's position and there has been a resurgence among other entrants such as Penney, Sears and Kmart--all have achieved their newfound growth in part by emulating Wal*Mart.

I probably come-off as particularly "pro-Wal*Mart" which isn't intentional--I'm merely not anti-Wal*Mart. Like any business of their magnitude--they have issues that I acknowledge are of concern--particularly in regard to human resources issues unrelated to compensation. They have also been notoriously bad at telling their side of the story--the coffee I suspect is part of that improved focus on public relations. Interesting how the coffee is edited into the doc in a negative way--yet, the lack of a response would've been edited in in exactly the same way--spin.

[SteelTown]

Land suited to jobs, not shops
Report doesn’t favour power centre along QEW

A proposed Wal-Mart in Stoney Creek is getting the thumbs down from consultants hired by the city and a developer.

Mady Developments wants to build an $85-million power centre on a 17-hectare site on the southwest corner of the QEW and Fifty Road. Wal-Mart has signed on as the anchor tenant.

But independent consultants say the land should be used for employment purposes, not shopping.

“The consultants have said ‘there is a need for the commercial use, we don’t dispute there is a demand for it,’” said Brenda Khes, a senior project manager with the city’s planning department.

“However, this isn’t the best location for it because we have a limited amount of employment land and what we have, we need to keep.”

Employment uses typically include industry, office buildings and warehouses — not major retail developments like a power centre.

Earlier this year, the Ontario Municipal Board allowed Hamilton to expand its urban boundary to add 223 hectares in Stoney Creek, including the Mady Developments site. The city is now working on a plan for how the land should be used.

To move ahead of that process, Mady, with the city’s agreement, opted to have an independent consulting firm, Hemson Consulting Ltd., study whether its site was an appropriate place for a power centre.

But a draft version of the report said the “exceptional access and gateway location” of the Mady property make it better suited for employment purposes.

Hemson has told the city it will need 1,000 hectares of new employment land to handle its job growth over the next 25 years.

“When the city told us ‘well we want to promote this other site and not your site,’ we put a halt to the studies that we were paying for thinking ‘what are we doing?’” said Hal Kersey, Mady’s vice president of planning and development.

“We’re spending significant dollars knowing full well the city’s not going to be supportive of what we’re doing.”

Kersey says a separate report, commissioned by his firm, shows the power centre would provide “significant economic benefits,” including $1.11 million in property taxes for the city and up to 1,000 jobs. And a commercial development needs the visibility and highway access of the Mady site in order to draw in highway traffic.

The city disagrees.

According to the consultants’ report “a Wal-Mart is a great thing to have, but it doesn’t need to be at that intersection,” Khes added. “It doesn’t need highway exposure, it doesn’t need highway access and it’s probably much better located closer to and as a part of an overall community.”

Councillor David Mitchell said residents in his ward have told him they favour the project.

“The north side (of the QEW) close to the lake hasn’t got anything,” he said. “There’s a lack of infrastructure for groceries, shopping, everything.”

[raisethehammer]

yea, this is a no-brainer...employment lands all the way for such prime property on the QEW.

let's hope the city sticks to their guns on this one and not waste such good land.

fastcars - the 'coffee' bit in the show wasn't edited in a negative way...it was quite humourous. they went to one store and nobody had a coffee so the guy told them "everyone else has been giving us coffee. what's with this store?" so they ran in and get him some.
it was nothing like a moore film. it was literally a cross country road trip going to walmart in towns all over canada...they did go to some towns that were fighting to keep them out too - guelph, stratford etc.... and those towns gave some insight into how walmart was literally trying to hijack their planning process. they've got so much money and time that they're basically just out-waiting these towns by having endless OMB hearings and spending money on lawyers.

I realize businesses have been successful with a central command post, but my point was that people need to think before asking for government to run like that. it's called communism in government. people are people, we aren't coggs on an assembly line that can be stuffed into an identical box, wearing identical clothes, all toeing the party line.
I'm not necessarily anti-walmart either...i'll never go protest (I shouldn't say that - I might be forced to if they try to stuff one downtown) these stores on the QEW or anywhere else in the burbs that wants them.
I just think it's ethical to keep the worlds most successful business accountable for their prolific use of sweatshops, their practice of turning over staff regularly to avoid having employees remain long-term and become eligible for health care etc.... and paying the lowest possible wages, even in the world of low-wage retail, and always leading the fight against unions and wage/benefit increases.
A film worth watching is 'The Corporation'. It explains how legally a corporation is given the same rights and responsibilities as a person. yet they constantly treat other humans in a way that would land you or I in jail.

just some more food for thought.

[BCTed]

A film worth watching is 'The Corporation'. It explains how legally a corporation is given the same rights and responsibilities as a person. yet they constantly treat other humans in a way that would land you or I in jail.

just some more food for thought.


You seem to have a hate-on for all businesses that have grown beyond a certain size just because of their size. Are there any large (i.e., multi-billion dollar) businesses that you do not dislike?

[raisethehammer]

You seem to have a hate-on for all businesses that have grown beyond a certain size just because of their size. Are there any large (i.e., multi-billion dollar) businesses that you do not dislike?


nothing in my above quote even hints at me having a "hate-on" for ALL (or any) businesses that have grown beyond a certain size.

[SteelTown]

At Mohawk College they force all students to watch The Corporation for the mandatory Active Citizenship course.

[raisethehammer]

gee, who knew that Mohawk College had such a hate-on for business?? Those lefty commies!

[hamiltonguy]

A couple of years ago my teacher didn't understand why as a right winger I was anti-walmart. Basically put it's a monopolizer and will destroy free markets. I believe it's the governments duty to stop a business from becoming a monopoly.

Also why do we want to add more supercentres that will just make greyfields in the middle of the city?

[fastcarsfreedom]

hamiltonguy--you raise some interesting points. However, as a lifelong rightie myself, I must say, your desire to have government step and "manage" competition is a long way from laissez-faire, it's unnatural manipulation of the free-market by government--that policy belongs on the left. Have a read through my earlier post, Wal*Mart is not a monopolizer, far from it--and in the U.S. in particular there have been a number of competitors that have reworked their business strategies and are outpacing the larger Wal*Mart in growth--Target, Penney and Kohls are all excellent examples of this. If you ever get a chance to pick up Sam Walton's autobiography, give it a read--it's very insightful and talks in detail about the lengths Kmart went to in the 1970s and 1980s to overtly try to run Wal*Mart out of business. Moreover, in regions where Wal*Mart has become the sole or dominant retailer, it has not raised prices, as some have argued it would. Home Depot, often pointed to as some sort of beacon of light because it pays it's employees higher than average wages for retail has, in the past, participated in blatantly predatory business practices--it's founders boasted at their prowess in regard to driving competitors to bankruptcy.

As for the Fifty Road location--I really can't support what I view as stonewalling--I'm not saying the location isn't suited to employment lands--it certainly is--but the city's approach is that employment lands can't be touched anywhere, at anytime--it's study after study, consultant after consultant--all while investment dollars go elsewhere. Turning your back on $85 million in investments and 1000 jobs looks bad period--to retail, to industry--to everyone. I am mildly amused at how supportive everyone suddenly is toward the city, I don't think I need to repeat the list of coloquial terms often used here to describe the city's Planning department.

As for The Corporation--I have seen the film, and considering it's mandatory viewing at Mohawk, just makes me prouder to say that I didn't attend Mohawk. The corporate world is littered with examples of poor business citizenship and bad human resource policies--but for every bad apple, there are dozens of good ones that simply don't make good documentaries. Can business be harsh, tough, sour, blunt? Yes, it's business. Frankly, it is what it is.

[raisethehammer]

fastcars said - As for the Fifty Road location--I really can't support what I view as stonewalling--I'm not saying the location isn't suited to employment lands--it certainly is--but the city's approach is that employment lands can't be touched anywhere, at anytime--it's study after study, consultant after consultant--all while investment dollars go elsewhere. Turning your back on $85 million in investments and 1000 jobs looks bad period--to retail, to industry--to everyone. I am mildly amused at how supportive everyone suddenly is toward the city, I don't think I need to repeat the list of coloquial terms often used here to describe the city's Planning department.

I can't speak for everyone else, but one of my big frustrations with the planning dept has been how spineless they are. anytime a big box or home developer shows up they're willing to rezone land, build highways for them, build new interchanges for them and the result is tons of wasted land along the Linc and 403 that could have housed thousands of good jobs.
I support them this time, because for once, they are doing the right thing. Like the consultant said, these stores can go anywhere (or close to it). I don't see Walmart complaining about the locale at Hwy 20&53 or Wilson St in Ancaster. To give them some of our best highway lands would be insane.
This is some of our last land on QEW. We need to get the most value out of it possible.

by the way, Walmart is able to monopolize and dominate in large part THANKS to government intervention. huge subsidies, tax breaks and billions and billions in 'free' infrastructure (free to them, debt to you and I).
Not to mention the power they have at the government level when it comes to policy and regulations on business. ie - walmart, mcdonalds and the usual suspects have fought long and hard against new requirements in the US that would have mandated the store managers to drive home employees under 18 late at night (common practice in Canada) and anytime a possible hike in minimum wage appears they control the arguements more than anyone.
As I said earlier, a free market this ain't.

[SteelTown]

It sounds as if these power centres won't get the necessary approval from City Hall. Probably will head to the OMB, but the city only needs to present the current by law for the land (industrial) and Places to Grow Act. So nothing is going to happen with these two lands for at least 5 years.

[raisethehammer]

ahhh, gotta love the OMB. as if it's not bad enough that private business tries to hijack city hall, they get help from the province to do it.

[flar]

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k28/segaert/oddstuff/00115.jpg

I'm not sure if anyone's discussed Ancaster's second power centre, actually Smart Centre. Anchored by the WalMart Supercentre and newly expanded Canadian Tire, there is some big construction there right now.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k28/segaert/oddstuff/00119.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k28/segaert/oddstuff/00118.jpg

You can see a newly built 2 storey office building in the background:
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k28/segaert/oddstuff/00117.jpg

These parts were built over the last two years:

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k28/segaert/oddstuff/00114.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k28/segaert/oddstuff/00113.jpg

[fastcarsfreedom]

We've gotten to the point now where we're going to "celebrate" land sitting vacant for 5 years--"Party on Wayne, Party on Garth".

Places to Grow might have some stick with the Fifty Road site, but I think the circumstances with QEW/Centennial favor Smart!Centres. I'm not sure how committed Mady/Wal*Mart are to the Fifty Road site--if they are that committed they will sit on the OMB...remains to be seen I guess.

[highwater]

Trinity Developments is appealing to the OMB to change the zoning on lands adjacent to the McMaster Innovation Park to allow for big box retail at Aberdeen and Longwood. Rumoured to be a Loblaws Superstore.

[raisethehammer]

Trinity Developments is appealing to the OMB to change the zoning on lands adjacent to the McMaster Innovation Park to allow for big box retail at Aberdeen and Longwood. Rumoured to be a Loblaws Superstore.


oh brother....it never ends.

[SteelTown]

Trinity Developments is appealing to the OMB to change the zoning on lands adjacent to the McMaster Innovation Park to allow for big box retail at Aberdeen and Longwood. Rumoured to be a Loblaws Superstore.

Ah so that's what the big by law sign is for at Aberdeen and Longwood, I could never be able to read it.

[BCTed]

nothing in my above quote even hints at me having a "hate-on" for ALL (or any) businesses that have grown beyond a certain size.

The quote served as a trigger rather than a source. My question was based on the observation of quite a large number of anti-big-business comments that you have made over time. Note that I did not state that you do have a hate-on, but rather that you seem to have a hate-on.

This is a pot-kettle type of thing. You have a rich history of misquoting me and attributing to me statements that I did not ever make.

And you did not answer the question. You suck.

[BCTed]

gee, who knew that Mohawk College had such a hate-on for business?? Those lefty commies!

The people who made "The Corporation" are frequently invited as guests to screenings of their movie at business schools --- everyone is allowed to have a say. Not everyone is as dismissive of opposing or multiple viewpoints as you are.

[BCTed]

.

by the way, Walmart is able to monopolize and dominate in large part THANKS to government intervention. huge subsidies, tax breaks and billions and billions in 'free' infrastructure (free to them, debt to you and I).
Not to mention the power they have at the government level when it comes to policy and regulations on business. ie - walmart, mcdonalds and the usual suspects have fought long and hard against new requirements in the US that would have mandated the store managers to drive home employees under 18 late at night (common practice in Canada) and anytime a possible hike in minimum wage appears they control the arguements more than anyone.
As I said earlier, a free market this ain't.

If there are indeed such "huge subsidies, tax breaks, etc.", then those same opportunities are available to Zellers or any other retailer.

Wal-Mart does not have a monopoly on anything. I can buy toothpaste at Wal-Mart. I can also buy the same brand at Zellers, at Shoppers Drug Mart, at Fortinos, at Bob's Convenience Store. I do not believe that there is a single item in Wal-Mart's entire inventory that I could not readily get somewhere else.

Wal-Mart is well within its rights to lobby the government for changes as it sees fit, as are you, as am I.

[raisethehammer]

brutal pics from the so-called Smart Centre. Nothing smart about it.
by the way, I must admit to getting a kick out of some folks trying to dismiss 'documentary' films based on potential biases of those producing them or editing techniques. Check CNN or FOX tonight...you'll see more bias and "editing techniques" to manufacture the "news" more than you'll ever see in a documentary.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Actually I never claimed network news or any other information source wasn't "massaged"--we could have a long enough conversation about that--I'm merely suggesting that these so-called "documentaries" are just as guilty (if not moreso) of what they accuse others of. The basis of Moore's Roger & Me was exposed as an utter and complete fabrication--but he certainly got HIS point across, didn't he?

[coalminecanary]

I just wrote up an article about this ridiculous trinity proposal next to the innovation park. Please take a look:
http://hammerboard.ca/viewtopic.php?t=102

Most of what I say there I believe also applies to the WalMart discussed in this thread, namely:
Retail development does not offer long term financial or social benefits to the city. Retail, especially in big box form, indeed offers short term cash in terms of taxes paid to the city. But at the same time, it sucks money from the local shoppers and funnels the meat of the profits to large corporations based in other cities, or in most cases, other countries. Locally, retail offers little back to the community: taxes and short-term, low-paying jobs with no benefits. It also creates seas of parking which are not only ugly to look at, but put undue stress on our wastewater management systems.

I also want to say that this thread is ridiculous. First of all, no one was specifically bashing WalMart. Everyone started out by (rightfully) bashing the concept of putting big box retail on one of the PRIME SPOTS along the QEW that Hamilton has. Fastcars, you turned this into a WalMart-centric discussion by coming bursting out of the gate sounding like a WalMart spokesman.

Secondly, no one here is looking longingly at Burlington, Oakville, Mississauga etc. At the same time, we aren't idiots. We know that pure highway-based development is a dead end road. But that doesn't change the fact that we HAVE HIGHWAYS crisscrossing our city. The meat of the arguments here are simply that we can't afford to squander the highway lands on places such as WalMart. This goes equally for Home Depot or anyone else. These visible-and-accessible-from-the-QEW parcels need to be developed as TRUE economic drivers. This means REAL jobs. Not benefit-less crap minimum wage part time slave labour. This location should be pushed as prime land for a shiny blue-windowed skyscraper that a tech company can put their logo on top of -- just like you'd see along the DVP.

WalMart, Zellers, HomeDepot, etc don't need highway frontage. People will find them if they are a few hundred metres down the road.

I certainly hope the city doesn't bend over on this land for WalMart or ANY other retail development.

By the way, despite the many pro WalMart messages that have come up here, there have been no true anti-WalMart messages -- only anti-"retail on industrial land" messages. Fastcars, perhaps you should head on over to the many WalMart bashing sites you mentioned and post your WalMart defenses there. We aren't here to get into a WalMart argument with you but that appears to be what you are looking for...

And here is an animation that shows you what most of us on here are interested in as far as REAL development. It compares the mcmaster innovatino park (real development) with the trinity proposal (false development). You might have to hit refresh to restart the animation:
click for animation
http://www.neenerneet.net/files/trinitythumb.gif
click for animation (http://www.neenerneet.net/files/trinity-anim-resize.gif)

[highwater]

Ah so that's what the big by law sign is for at Aberdeen and Longwood, I could never be able to read it.

I was by there today looking for the bylaw sign but didn't see it. Just the Martel Realty sign offering a "30 acre Development Site". Where's the bylaw sign? Also, the MIP sign is completely covered up. I'm sure there's an explanation, but couldn't help but feel a bit paranoid given the current climate.

[raisethehammer]

The quote served as a trigger rather than a source. My question was based on the observation of quite a large number of anti-big-business comments that you have made over time. Note that I did not state that you do have a hate-on, but rather that you seem to have a hate-on.

This is a pot-kettle type of thing. You have a rich history of misquoting me and attributing to me statements that I did not ever make.

And you did not answer the question. You suck.



this is really adding to the quality of this discussion. lol.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Coalminecanary--You have entirely and completed missed the point of my arguments thusfar. Fair to say that we don't agree on development issues--but we equally share the right to come to this Forum and discuss what we believe are the best paths for Hamilton to take to move forward in the world. My "defense" of Wal*Mart--which wasn't really a defense at all--was based on a few years of experience sharing and reading here--I based my arguments on the big picture--the prevailing mindset of many of the posters here--not by looking at threads strictly out-of-context. And, to be frank, when you rail against highway development as fervently as many here have--it is bordering on hypocritical when you then begin to dictate the sorts of developments that are going to go onto newly serviced land.

I believe that highway development is positive and necessary. You on the other hand "know that pure highway-based development is a dead end road" The difference in how we present our arguments is not subtle--I am, and remain open to debate and discussion here. Your opinions, much like lower prices at Zellers, are apparently, the law. I recommend you re-read some of my previous posts--and try your best to ignore any mention I make of Wal*Mart--because you are apparently unable to see past my modest defence of their business practices.

[raisethehammer]

dang coalmine, that report/presentation is sweet! nice job bro.

[markbarbera]

Coalminecanary, your arguments are bang-on. Unfortunately, some keep on diverting attention from the main issue:


I believe that highway development is positive and necessary. You on the other hand "know that pure highway-based development is a dead end road" .

fastcarsfreedom, you are quoting coalmine out of context. He is arguing (rightly) that highway-based big box development on industrial lands is an economic dead-end road. It is not an attack against Wal-Mart specifically, but calls into question how appropriate it is for big box developments to locate on prime industrial lands. To even entertain the thought that land zoned for industrial use should be developed as a retail centre does the city a great injustice. After all, the city cannot make a case for expanding industrial land zones if it is allowing existing industrial lands to be rezoned for retail.

This is about preventing the loss of valuable industrial lands to to retail use, fastcarsfreedom. If you think the city would have more economical benefits arising from retail than from industrial development, please present your reasoning on that argument as it would, if nothing else, make for an interesting read.

[raisethehammer]

if I may also add, I'm no fan of mega highway construction and their never ending debt load that threatens to crush our city coffers, HOWEVER, highways have been built (whether I like it or not) and I want them to be used for the best possible gain for our city. Yes, I know long-term, highways are a dead end of congestion, pollution and a drain on the overall economy, so I at least want to leverage as much positive as I can while there is still a chance. low wage retail is a complete waste along highways. Even though I hate the idea of far-flung 'business parks' with no transit, cycling or pedestrian connections to the city I'd at least rather see that be built so folks in Hamilton who are currently driving to Toronto (or moving away) for good jobs can stay in Hamilton and have new taxes coming into city hall from businesses and employees that actually have money. I don't want Hamilton to continue becoming a city full of marginalized people who can only afford to work and shop at Walmart (or Zellers or K-Mart etc.... just to avoid being called 'anti-walmart').

[coalminecanary]

when you rail against highway development as fervently as many here have--it is bordering on hypocritical when you then begin to dictate the sorts of developments that are going to go onto newly serviced land.

I don't rail against development along existing highways. I rail against new highways being built when we are already choking on highways in Southern Ontario. I also rail against inappropriate development along highways, i.e. slapping a one level retail economy-sinkhole on a site much better suited to office or industrial economy-drivers.

I look at it this way:

Retail:
-Takes money in from neighbouring communities when they shop there
-gives back to community in low paying part time jobs
-gives back to community in taxes
-gives most of the profit to head office in another city or country, where head office employees make better salaries over longer periods and feed their own local economy

Commercial (office):
-takes money from customers over a large area, not just locally
-gives back to community in high paying long term jobs
-gives back to community in taxes
-accepts the profit made in a wide area and uses it to feed the local economy (through the salaries and taxes mentioned)

Commercial (industrial/manufacturing)
-takes from community in an environmental fashion (creating pollution etc)
-gives back to community in high paying long term jobs
-gives back to community in taxes
-accepts the profit made in a wide area and uses it to feed the local economy (through the salaries and taxes mentioned)

Which would you rather have? why are we switching commercial land to retail when it's clearly a net loser? Why don't we focus our energies on attracting high tech investment? Other cities much uglier than ours have made a successful run at that idea. Are we even trying? We need to be attracting more head offices of retail chains and fewer retail outlets.


I believe that highway development is positive and necessary. You on the other hand "know that pure highway-based development is a dead end road"

You are misreading my point. By "pure", I mean "only", or "solely" or even "primarily". I am talking about putting all your eggs in one basket. I am referring to basing your economy ONLY on highway-based development. I think all of us inherently know that this type of development is dead end, especially if it's the only thing you have. It's not just opinion: rising oil prices have made it a reality. So my point is that we need to have a mix of development, including transit oriented development, walkable communities (mixed use zoning), rebuilding our rail systems -- public investment in rail is pathetically minuscule compared to investment in roads, etc.

Take a look at mississauga or brampton. They have built all of their economy around building more roads, highways and developing along them. What happens to these "cities" when oil reaches the tipping point where trucking companies are no longer profitable and people can't afford to drive everywhere? Even if you do not agree with the concept of long term irreversible oil depletion and rising prices... even if you think this oil price issue is simply going to be a "blip" like in the seventies... you have to see that the past 50 years of solely investing in highway oriented development is going to severely bite these places in the ass for the duration of the "blip". Am I really as closed minded and 'out there' as you think? Even if we have a 5 year blip causing a severe crunch on highway oriented development, it's going to take decades to recover. We need to be building and maintaining as many "baskets" as we can. Our eggs are depending on it ;-)

[LikeHamilton]

Heritage Greene slated for next fall
Laura Lennie

Mar 07, 2008 Stoney Creek News.

Heritage Greene Centre's construction has begun and its completion is slated for next year.

"We're probably looking at around the fall, but we don't know for sure," said Paul Silvestri, president of Silvestri Investments which is developing the property in partnership with Effort Trust, at the corner of Paramount Drive and Winterberry Drive.

The centre consists of 320,000 square feet of big box retail space. Expected tenants include Best Buy, Home Depot, Indigo, Linens 'N' Things, Michael's, Pet Smart, Pro Hockey Life, Royal Bank of Canada and Tim Hortons, as well as Kelsey's, Milestone's, Montana's and a fast food restaurant.

A 41,000-square-foot, 2,200-seat SilverCity theatre with a small family play area, large concession stand and parking, along with a three-storey office building are also slated for the site.

"It will be big," said Mr. Silvestri. "It will be fantastic for residents because they haven't had anything for the longest time up there, so it's going to bring a lot to the community."

In the meantime, Ward 9 councillor Brad Clark says Stone Church Road will be widened this summer and urbanized by the end of the year to compensate for needed changes related to the centre's development.

"They're up there now beginning work for the installation of sewers and water mains, which will account for temporary road closures in the coming months," he said.

The work, however, is worth the effort, says Mr. Clark.

"A lot of residents in upper Stoney Creek have been travelling to Lime Ridge Mall, the Meadowlands and this will give them an opportunity to shop in their own community," he said. "This development will bring hundreds of full-time and part-time jobs to our community as well."

Other expected road improvements include, the extension of the northbound left turn lane on Winterberry at Mud Street, traffic signals at the new development and a left turn lane into the development.

For years, talk of the development has been met with skepticism by residents who fear increased traffic and vandalism at the site. Many have expressed concerns about the safety of students at nearby Janet Lee elementary school. But others have applauded the fact they will no longer have to travel for these amenities.

Originally, the plan was to have 600,000 square feet of commercial and retail space without any residential units. But when residents protested, the developer reviewed the plans and talked to school officials and decided to place restrictions on the plan and add residential units.

[SteelTown]

Oh Milestone huh? Think that's the first for Hamilton.

Seeing how Effort Trust is with this there must be residential development invloved. There was a concept design here awhile ago for Heritage Greene and it looked good.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Yeah SteelTown--I'll probably get flogged for saying this, but I found the food at Milestone's pretty damn good--and the atmosphere is nice--been wondering when Cara would bring that concept to Hamilton.

[SteelTown]

To me Milestone is fine dining but coroporate franchise type. Milestone has Kobe beef (you don't see on menus too often). I like how they have a seperate vegetarian menu.

[raisethehammer]

never eaten there (because there's none in the Hammer...I'll happily refuse to eat at anyplace that doesn't count my city worthwhile).
Stoney Creek is further for me than Burlington, so I still won't be eating there...I'll take your guys word that it's good.
Open one downtown and I'll check it out.

[HAMRetrofit]

It is part of the same umbrella organization as Kelsey's, Montana's, Outback, etc., etc.. It offers the 'feux' up scale or 'your a star' dining experience as opposed to the box roadhouse. The food is generally the same as the above mentioned restaurants but rebranded with a different assortment of spices and sauces. It uses a sort of Thai motif to the taste of its food. I would rank it about a 4.5/10, the above mentioned restaurants I would rank 2.5, 3.0, 4.0, respectively.

[highwater]

I ate at one in Mississauga when I was on a shopping expedition. Not bad at all. If you find yourself out in the burbs looking for a place to eat you could do alot worse, but it's not worth going out of your way for. Don't be taking the wife there for your anniversary. :)

[SteelTown]

I'm surprised there's no grocery store planned for Heritage Greene.

[BCTed]

The centre consists of 320,000 square feet of big box retail space. Expected tenants include Best Buy, Home Depot, Indigo, Linens 'N' Things, Michael's, Pet Smart, Pro Hockey Life, Royal Bank of Canada and Tim Hortons, as well as Kelsey's, Milestone's, Montana's and a fast food restaurant.

A 41,000-square-foot, 2,200-seat SilverCity theatre with a small family play area, large concession stand and parking, along with a three-storey office building are also slated for the site.


This sounds like quite a good lineup. I prefer the Chapters format over Indigo, but I like it all the same.

[flar]

It's like a replica of the Meadowlands. But it's only like 15 km away from the Meadowlands. How many of these things can the city even support? I mean they're building a new Future Shop at the Smart Centre in Ancaster and it's literally 9km and 8 minutes from the existing future Shop at the Meadowlands (which will become a Best Buy). Each of these will be about 20-25km and 15 to 20 minutes away from the Best Buy in Burlington.

[BCTed]

It's like a replica of the Meadowlands. But it's only like 15 km away from the Meadowlands. How many of these things can the city even support? I mean they're building a new Future Shop at the Smart Centre in Ancaster and it's literally 9km and 8 minutes from the existing future Shop at the Meadowlands (which will become a Best Buy). Each of these will be about 20-25km and 15 to 20 minutes away from the Best Buy in Burlington.

It is interesting that two new Best Buys are planned when there is just one in the area at the moment. All of Toronto only has five Best Buys or so.

[fastcarsfreedom]

HAMRetrofit--did you mean "faux" or are you saying Milestone's offers some sort of "fire dining"? Of course it's a chain operation--and it comes along with those trappings--but I wouldn't say Cara is making an effort to "disguise" it as something it's not.

BCTed the Chapters/!ndigo arrangement is almost as interesting as the Best Buy/Future Shop situation. I'm pretty sure the Chapters format is dead as far as new store development goes--not sure if they'll ever combine the operations under a single name or just leave the Chapters stores as they are. The first generation Chapters locations were the best--such as the one in Ancaster--since then they have been consistently downsized--and as I said, all new development seems to be !ndigo. (Interesting to note that the first location for both chains were in Burlington). Best Buy seems to be pairing up it's BB and FS locations. I realize the chains differ to a degree (appliances and commissioned salespeople at FS)--but the strategy of co-locating the two chains seems disjointed to me. Locally the FS location is packing up and moving to a new location that is literally about 500 yards from the BB--perhaps the theory is that people like to cross-shop for electronics.

[BCTed]

HAMRetrofit--did you mean "faux" or are you saying Milestone's offers some sort of "fire dining"? Of course it's a chain operation--and it comes along with those trappings--but I wouldn't say Cara is making an effort to "disguise" it as something it's not.

BCTed the Chapters/!ndigo arrangement is almost as interesting as the Best Buy/Future Shop situation. I'm pretty sure the Chapters format is dead as far as new store development goes--not sure if they'll ever combine the operations under a single name or just leave the Chapters stores as they are. The first generation Chapters locations were the best--such as the one in Ancaster--since then they have been consistently downsized--and as I said, all new development seems to be !ndigo. (Interesting to note that the first location for both chains were in Burlington). Best Buy seems to be pairing up it's BB and FS locations. I realize the chains differ to a degree (appliances and commissioned salespeople at FS)--but the strategy of co-locating the two chains seems disjointed to me. Locally the FS location is packing up and moving to a new location that is literally about 500 yards from the BB--perhaps the theory is that people like to cross-shop for electronics.

I miss the old days of Chapters when there were many cushioned chairs and sofas all over the store... I would shamelessly spend a couple of hours at a time there. Even now, with only a few wooden chairs, I still somehow prefer its aesthetics to those of Indigo.

The Best Buy/ Future Shop thing also has me confused. I actually prefer Best Buy just because of the fact that I have bad memories from the old days of Future Shop when the salespeople were dressed in suits and had kind of a slimy approach. Apart from the commission thing, I don't know what the real difference is... the two stores sell largely the same products.

Does Best Buy not sell appliances? I swear that I have seen them in there, but I may be thinking of US stores that I have been in.

[FRM]

one question kept popping into my head while reading that article: " why is the city allowing developers to expand like that, and ignore the core of the city?". I think the city should take a stance where they let these big boxes go up in the burbs but also force them to commit something to the downtown as well.

[Millstone]

i've always wanted a restaurant named after me!

[flar]

They're not totally ignoring the lower city, eg: the Centre Mall redevelopment and the attempt to build some big box stuff near the McMaster Innovation Park (which the city is fighting), but it would be nice if there was something right in the core. The demographics in central Hamilton are not quite there yet.

[LikeHamilton]

It's like a replica of the Meadowlands. But it's only like 15 km away from the Meadowlands. How many of these things can the city even support? I mean they're building a new Future Shop at the Smart Centre in Ancaster and it's literally 9km and 8 minutes from the existing future Shop at the Meadowlands (which will become a Best Buy). Each of these will be about 20-25km and 15 to 20 minutes away from the Best Buy in Burlington.

They don’t think of city limits when they plan power centers. There is 400,000+ people living south of Hamilton from Welland to Simcoe and to Lake Eire that Limeridge, Fortinos and the power centers are the closest that they have to major shopping. I have friends in Dunnville, Caledonia, Port Dover and Hagersville that do not think twice about driving into Hamilton for shopping. There is nothing out there.