Rail-based Transit Discussion

[someone123]

Here's a thread so we can move the light rail talk out of the ferry thread.

Is it feasible? If so, what kind of system should be developed?

[Canadian_Bacon]

I think it could be feasible. It would also benefit Halifax in the Long term as the population grows and spreads outwards.

Just start it out small at first. Maybe like a trial run, on a short distance, to see how many actually use it. Then expand it from there, adding stops etc. I'm not sure about how much the fares would cost the riders, but I'm sure it wouldn't be a large amount.

So it would be good, to have a system that could reach out to a greater area and faster service. Buses are for the inner-city commute etc. But this light rail could stretch out further. Plus I'm sure in today's world with the concern of pollution etc. This would fit in just fine.

I'd like to see this project take off. But I'm sure it will not be for awhile.

[Spitfire75]

I know in the other thread someone mentioned tracks running down Hollis or Brunswick streets. I'm just having some trouble imagining that. I mean those streets are already quite narrow and traffic is heavy at times, let alone with a train taking up half the street. Driving downtown would be even more of a nightmare.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of an LRT system. But maybe I'm not understanding it correctly?

[hfx_chris]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Brunswick is pretty close to 4 lanes wide, if it isn't already, and no light rail train is going to take up 2 lanes of traffic, it would only take up 1 lane of traffic. And even then, as long as it's moving it's not holding up the traffic behind it, just like a bus.

Hollis is 2 lanes, could possibly squeeze a third if they got rid of parking on that street.

[Nouvellecosse]

My LRT route vision:

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=104655071850053201113.0004494cfd6aa650b7a83&ie=UTF8&z=12

I expect service frequencies similar to the #1 bus.

[reddog794]

My only question to rail is why aren't we looking into putting it underground? Not in the subway sort of way, but we've got plenty of old military tunnels under ground, why not map all of them, and see if there isn't any running N-S, and improve upon that for underground rail links? If there is a such a tunnel (I don't know if there is or not) we could run a rail link connecting DT. Just something that I thought about on the way home from work.

[Spitfire75]

Nice route, makes a lot of sense too using the rail corridors already in place. If I could take a train to work instead of driving, I definitely would.

[Commoner]

nice use of existing rail corridor. another routing would take advantage of Robie, covering off the major hospitals and the universities as well. it would have a lot more dense use I should think than perhaps all of the route proposed.

Regarding military tunnels, not sure what you mean by that reddog794. if you mean the tunnels downtown from citadel hill, those were designed only for one person walking, and are not that long (likely to be used in the event of a seige of the fort for a person or persons to get out of the fort to get news of what was happening and to get some help.) So, they would not be of any assistance re the downtown. a subway system given our geology would not be feasible.

[Nouvellecosse]

My choice of routes was primarily focused on making the line the best possible combination of speed and affordability. I'm not sure how a line making use of surface streets would be very fast. If there was traffic signaling, it could be faster than the current bus routes, but I doubt it would ever be able to go over the in-town speed limit of 50 km/h unless there was a way to totally seperate it from traffic somehow. In the rail cut, anything goes... especially if the stations are well spaced.

[someone123]

An at-grade LRT system wouldn't work well in intersections but a hybrid system with some elevated sections in key areas would be significantly faster.

Vancouver's Canada Line is pegged at $1.9B and is 19 km long. Most is elevated but some parts are underground (downtown) and it crosses water multiple times. A ballpark estimate for elevated track in Halifax might therefore be something like $70-80M per kilometre.

[Nouvellecosse]

Does anyone know the mean Bedrock depth in downtown Hfx? Would it be possible to create shallow cut-and-cover tunnels in some places such as Barrington? There are a few underground walkways downtown, so it might not be out of the realm of possibility.

And I definitely wouldn't be against taking a cautious look at an elevated line. Most of the peninsula is composed of houses that are fairly close to the street but has a fair amount of land behind them, which could be a good passage way for an LRT. Although I admit, this might stir the NIMBYs into quite the frenzy. :)

[reddog794]

I was simply pondering outside options, I've never seen inside one of the tunnels, little less than even know where to look for them.

You know nouvellecosse, we could take the big dig approach, only on land down Barrington, with that kind of thinking. Dig down 3-4 stories, update the power, and utls. and drop down pre-formed tunnel pieces, and story and half seperating it from the road surface.

If I ever win the lottery Halifax is going to be my simcity...

[Takeo]

Underground walkways downtown? I can think of the Scotia Square tunnel... but that's all. Are there others?

As for rail... what about the Barrington St. corridor? It's long since been abandoned but I know it used to go all the way to North Street at least (North Street Station was destroyed on Dec 6, 1917). And judging from the ancient stone walls along the back of the massive navy parking lot (Provo Wallis Drive), it looks like it (or a marshall yard) used to go almost all the way to where the new sewage treatment plant is.

Then again... following the cut could allow you to have Quinpool and Robie St. stations... which makes sense. But you would have to get the trains deeper into downtown than the VIA station. If they could go all the way to where the courts / ferry terminal are now (as you've proposed)... that would be amazing.

[Jonovision]

Yah, the rail lines went right up to a station that was right where the sewage treatment plant is now. there was a really big rail yard down there.

[reddog794]

On the same coin, you could take the line starting at the via station, ans feed them under starting where behind the Superstore at foundry lane, and run down Barrington, to the beginning of North Marginal Road.

Use it as an added bonus to removing the inter-change, the approaches from Barrington are going to needed to be addressed, so why not the whole surface, and sub-surface? They want to make Barrington our Champs Elysée... all of which is discussed on another thread, I know.

[Takeo]

Yah, the rail lines went right up to a station that was right where the sewage treatment plant is now. there was a really big rail yard down there.

Ahh... I knew it! Thanks 'Jono'. I've been doing some googling but all I could find out about was the North Street Station... but I walk along Provo Wallis a lot (on my way to work) and always suspected that those walls were once part of a railway "cut"... and it's not hard to imagine that parking lot as a big marshall yard.

Regardless though... I think the current railway cut makes more sense since you could have stops on Quinpool and Robie. Just not sure how you'd get the trains deeper into downtown without tunneling.

[someone123]

I think the Barrington rail route actually makes more sense from a commuter rail point of view. The fact that it doesn't go through residential parts of the peninsula is probably good since it allows for higher speeds. The extra stops would be nice but then again would also slow down the trip.

The downsides of the Northern route are that it would need more work before Fairview Cove and all the CN-related issues still apply.

[MonctonGoldenFlames]

If you are looking at rail options for the HRM, I think you need to start smaller than LRT, and begin with a streetcar-like set up. It doesn't require any special right of ways and can integrate with most major roads thru town. Most importantly, it could be accessed at grade so it would require minimal station development.

[Keith P.]

If you are looking at rail options for the HRM, I think you need to start smaller than LRT, and begin with a streetcar-like set up. It doesn't require any special right of ways and can integrate with most major roads thru town

Not in Halifax. Many major streets on the peninsula are narrow, only 1 lane each way with buildings virtually right to the curb. Putting a streetcar on them would bring traffic to a halt.

[MonctonGoldenFlames]

Not in Halifax. Many major streets on the peninsula are narrow, only 1 lane each way with buildings virtually right to the curb. Putting a streetcar on them would bring traffic to a halt.

I 'assumed' that a lot of the streets have on street parking, which should be removed to create the extra width to run a streetcar. After all, increased transit use should lead to less demand for parking.

I only lived in Halifax for a year, and visited frequently, but not too much time was spent downtown. Looking at Google Earth, I thought a 'U' shaped street car line could be run down Quinpool to Cogswell to Rainnie to Duke until Barrington. From Barrington it would turn back up Spring Garden Rd to Robie or even Dalhousie. What do you think?

[Smevo]

For the "heart of downtown", you could run a streetcar down Hollis which is two lanes and one way, Barrington would be practically impossible though. Not sure offhand where you'd route it in other areas.

[reddog794]

Morris comes to mind for street cars, so does brunswick and spring garden.

[terrynorthend]

I only lived in Halifax for a year, and visited frequently, but not too much time was spent downtown. Looking at Google Earth, I thought a 'U' shaped street car line could be run down Quinpool to Cogswell to Rainnie to Duke until Barrington. From Barrington it would turn back up Spring Garden Rd to Robie or even Dalhousie. What do you think?

Its not a bad route, but is just as easily (and more cheaply) served by buses, like FRED.

Years ago Halifax had overhead-electric rail trolleys, then these were replaced by rubber-tired trolleys that used the same wires. Eventually they removed the wires altogether and went to internal combustion buses.

Nowadays buses are efficient and are becoming "cleaner" running all the time. Instead of putting rails and wires back onto narrow, over-crowded streets, Metro Transit would be better off to invest in a few hydrogen-powered buses for routes like this. Rail only makes sense on long-range routes to outlying communities, and BRT may still win out in that case.

[Takeo]

I think the Barrington rail route actually makes more sense from a commuter rail point of view. The fact that it doesn't go through residential parts of the peninsula is probably good since it allows for higher speeds. The extra stops would be nice but then again would also slow down the trip.

The downsides of the Northern route are that it would need more work before Fairview Cove and all the CN-related issues still apply.

Ya. I have this vision in my head of a Halifax "Grand Central" near where Karlsen's Wharf used to be (beside the Casino) with connections to rail, ferry and busses. It's close enough to downtown (almost) without having to tunnel as you would from the VIA station. And imagine such a station once Cogswell is torn down! It would be in the heart of the "new" downtown.

Oh well... you can dream anyway :P

[reddog794]

We all dream hence why we come here to discuss it, because one of us might make it rich, and help to build the city of our dreams. Keep dreaming Takeo, because I see the colours you're dreaming in, and I'm there man, only you make them sound more conversational.

[Keith P.]

Given the recent approval by HRM of a 5-year transit capital plan with no mention of any kind of rail, is anyone aware of any credible cost estimates for a line from Bedford/Sackville to downtown? We toss around various cost numbers for different types of routes but I do not recall any actual estimates being produced.

[hfx_chris]

An alternative to tunneling under Barrington is the one I had come up with; remove parking from both Brunswick and Hollis, and form a U shape along Brunswick-Cogswell-Hollis and back onto the south-end rail cut.

Looking at Google Earth, I thought a 'U' shaped street car line could be run down Quinpool to Cogswell to Rainnie to Duke until Barrington. From Barrington it would turn back up Spring Garden Rd to Robie or even Dalhousie. What do you think?
Sounds like the old tramcar Belt Line, later renumbered routes 1 & 2 back in the trolleycoach days. Now that would be a blast from the past!

Nowadays buses are efficient and are becoming "cleaner" running all the time. Instead of putting rails and wires back onto narrow, over-crowded streets, Metro Transit would be better off to invest in a few hydrogen-powered buses for routes like this.As far as I know, this is the plan. Kinda.
They're planning to buy a couple of diesel-electric buses for a downtown shuttle type service.

Years ago Halifax had overhead-electric rail trolleys, then these were replaced by rubber-tired trolleys that used the same wires. Eventually they removed the wires altogether and went to internal combustion buses.Now I'm just going to be picky:
The new trolley coaches actually didn't use the same wires, as the trolleys used dual power poles, where as the tram cars used single power poles (the metal tracks were used as ground). In the weeks heading up to the changeover date, they installed all of the overhead wires for the trolleys above the existing tram car overhead. On the night before the first day of trolley coach operations, they went around and frantically took down all of the tram car wires, so the trolleys could head out first thing in the morning.
As it is, the conversion took a few weeks; only the routes servicing the downtown/Spring Garden/Quinpool/Almon street areas were converted to trolley coach, and routes like the Armdale, Point Pleasant Park and Gottingen/Richmond routes remained serviced by trams. In fact, since there was no overhead wires for the trams on these routes to use downtown, they were essentially "orphaned" on the outer parts of their respective routes, and passengers had to transfer from trams to trolleys at designated points
:tup:

[Nouvellecosse]

Its not a bad route, but is just as easily (and more cheaply) served by buses, like FRED.

Years ago Halifax had overhead-electric rail trolleys, then these were replaced by rubber-tired trolleys that used the same wires. Eventually they removed the wires altogether and went to internal combustion buses.

Nowadays buses are efficient and are becoming "cleaner" running all the time. Instead of putting rails and wires back onto narrow, over-crowded streets, Metro Transit would be better off to invest in a few hydrogen-powered buses for routes like this. Rail only makes sense on long-range routes to outlying communities, and BRT may still win out in that case.Electrically powered vehicles tend to be extremely quiet, low maintenance, and powerful (great for hills). I don't know much about hydrogen powered buses, but I've heard that they're extremely expensive. While the wires for trollies would be a higher initial expense, such vehicles have very low ongoing maintenance costs. I'd love to see a couple of central, FRED-like routes making use of streetcars or trolly buses.

Besides, economics are certainly important, but we need to include all the factors into the equation. Innercity trollies are more than just an equation of cost/passenger miles, becasue they don't just move people, they add a vibrance and charm to the urban landscape. Their presence is something that people can enjoy without ever actually riding them (well, that's certainly the case for me anyway). A city with streetcar/trollybuses just seems so much more large, charismatic, and urban. But that's something that simple cost vs ridership calculations don't show.

[someone123]

Central routes like the downtown shuttle being planned are perfect for electric buses or streetcars.

In addition to being much more desirable all-around and being able to rely on any fuel source there is a level of permanence to that kind of infrastructure that makes a big difference when it comes to spurring on extra investment in nearby neighbourhoods. For this reason lines would be really great through areas like the North End, Quinpool, and Barrington/Inglis.

I'd love if Metro Transit turned the downtown shuttle into a small pilot project for electric trolley buses. I have no doubt that if people in Halifax started seeing them in operation they'd be a hit.

[hfx_chris]

Interesting, we're having this discussion, and Edmonton's city council decided last month or so to abandon their trolley bus service within the next couple of years :(

[Spitfire75]

Why are they doing that? Low usage?

[hfx_chris]

No, I think they're used just as much as any of their other surface routes.
But the equipment they're using is old, and I would imagine the reason is that it's more cost effective to replace them with diesels than electrics.

[spryscraper]

Check this out, it's the planning department's official take on rail-based transit:

http://www.halifax.ca/metrotransit/documents/CommuterRail.pdf

Biased much? At the very least, it goes to show once again how narrow-minded these planners are. Maybe Edmonton is the smallest city in North America to currently operate an LRT network (which isn't really the same thing as commuter rail anyway) but they overlook the fact that Halifax-sized cities like Kitchener and Victoria are starting to plan for rail-based transit. Also overlooked is any possibility of just building new tracks instead of limiting a commuter train to the CN line. This way the city COULD use LRT trains and by extension, COULD run them through downtown streets.

My favourite part of the report is the claim that "travel time from downtown by local bus from Sackville in peak time is only 30 minutes"... are we talking about the same Sackville here?

[hfx_chris]

Check this out, it's the planning department's official take on rail-based transit:

http://www.halifax.ca/metrotransit/documents/CommuterRail.pdf

Biased much? At the very least, it goes to show once again how narrow-minded these planners are. Maybe Edmonton is the smallest city in North America to currently operate an LRT network (which isn't really the same thing as commuter rail anyway) but they overlook the fact that Halifax-sized cities like Kitchener and Victoria are starting to plan for rail-based transit. Also overlooked is any possibility of just building new tracks instead of limiting a commuter train to the CN line. This way the city COULD use LRT trains and by extension, COULD run them through downtown streets.

My favourite part of the report is the claim that "travel time from downtown by local bus from Sackville in peak time is only 30 minutes"... are we talking about the same Sackville here?

Yup. I went off the deep end and had a big rant on another discussion board when I saw that... I'm still peeved that the city would go out of their way to publish that little piece of propaganda...

[Wishblade]

Check this out, it's the planning department's official take on rail-based transit:

http://www.halifax.ca/metrotransit/documents/CommuterRail.pdf

Biased much? At the very least, it goes to show once again how narrow-minded these planners are. Maybe Edmonton is the smallest city in North America to currently operate an LRT network (which isn't really the same thing as commuter rail anyway) but they overlook the fact that Halifax-sized cities like Kitchener and Victoria are starting to plan for rail-based transit. Also overlooked is any possibility of just building new tracks instead of limiting a commuter train to the CN line. This way the city COULD use LRT trains and by extension, COULD run them through downtown streets.

My favourite part of the report is the claim that "travel time from downtown by local bus from Sackville in peak time is only 30 minutes"... are we talking about the same Sackville here?

lol @ the 30 minutes comment. I mean, you could maybe do that time with MetroLink, but certainly not by regular routes.

[Dmajackson]

lol @ the 30 minutes comment. I mean, you could maybe do that time with MetroLink, but certainly not by regular routes.

From experience the #80/#82 are an hour and a half, and i think the #87 is defenitley over an half an hour.

The Link is 20-25 minutes

[hfx_chris]

They were more than likely referring to the metrolink route when they said 30 minutes.. but the propaganda piece specifically said by local bus from Sackville - the 80 is scheduled to take 1 hour 15 minutes, but as we all know 1.5 hours isn't uncommon.

[waterloowarrior]

It's also kind of unfair to use similar sized cities in the US as a comparison, since they have much lower transit use... there is a City in the US around the same size as Halifax RM with no public transportation at all (besides paratranspo)

[someone123]

Yes, and in general it's built very differently. Halifax is more densely built on average than most of the large US metros (e.g. Boston, Philadelphia, LA). The average of course does not tell the full story since those larger cities have dense sub-areas but when it comes to the smaller cities in the US with around a million people it's not hard to imagine there being equivalent or larger parts of Halifax that are well-suited to transit. Something else to consider is that many substantial metros in the US are not real cities, but rather agglomerations of towns and sprawl.

Given the way construction is going I would also imagine that the size and population of areas that could support rapid transit in Halifax are growing relatively quickly. Most new construction in the city is multi-unit, with the majority of those being mid-sized concrete condos and apartments of 4-12 floors.

The big problem I think is not overall demand but rather the fact that it's hard to serve large parts of the city with a simpler system.

[spryscraper]

A concept I've been playing with lately is a tight loop in the centre of the peninsula; a very simple system, it would run down Oxford to South St, South St to Barrington, Barrington to North St, and North St back to Oxford. Call it the "BOX" (Barrington/Oxford) for short...

To compliment this, a long North-South line could run along Robie, from NSIT at the north end to SMU at the south. These two routes would connect all three Dal campuses, King's, SMU, all three NSCAD campuses (~3 minute walking distance), NSIT (again, a very short walk from Robie), the Commons and the new high school, the IWK and both parts of the QE2, the dockyards, the CBD, Willow/Windsor Park... the list goes on

[spryscraper]

I haven't been able to get a good map uploaded yet, but I'll describe it as best I can and hopefully anyone reading this will be able to make their own sketch with google maps and a bit of creativity...

The BOX:

-North & Chebucto & Oxford (gateway to mid-density West End)

-North & Windsor (fairly dense residential... Gladstone Ridge etc.)

-North & Robie (gateway to the North End, mid density residential/retail, transfer to Robie St. Line)

-North & Barrington (Dockyards, Stad, MacDonald Bridge)

-Barrington & Cornwallis (Dockyards, dense residential)

-Barrington & Cogswell (Casino, Purdy's Wharf, Historic Properties, NSCAD, hotels)

-Barrington & Duke (Metro Centre, North End of "Downtown" - bars, restaurants, CBD)

-Barrington & Spring Garden (Dal-Sexton, SGR and South End of "Downtown")

-Barrington & South (NSCAD, Westin, Cunard Centre, Pier 21, Farmer's Market, dense residential nearby)

-South & South Park (QE2)

-South & Robie (Transfer to Robie St. Line, Dal-Carleton, dense residential)

-South & Lemarchant (Dal-Studley)

-Oxford & Coburg (Dal-Studley, King's College, dense residential/dorms)

-Oxford & Quinpool (Oxford Theatre, mid density residential/retail)


Robie St. Line

-Robie & Leeds (NSIT, mid density residential)

-Robie & Young (Hydrostone Market, Oland Brewery, mid density residential/retail)

-North & Robie transfer station

-Robie & Quinpool (QE2, Commons, Museum of Natural History, Citadel Hill, Holiday Inn, whatever is replacing the old QEHS, dense residential)

-Robie & Coburg & Spring Garden (IWK, Dal-Studley, Dal-Carleton, dense residential/retail

-South & Robie transfer station

-Robie & Inglis (SMU, dense residential)


total stops/stations:
BOX: 14
Robie St. Line: 7 (including the two transfer stations)

Most of the stations could be similar to what is used now for MetroLink, but a few of them could be made a bit more special... Barrington & Spring Garden, Robie & Quinpool, "Hydrostone Station" at Robie & Young, and "Seaport Station" at Barrington & South for example. The Barrington & Duke station would be integrated into the current "terminal" and would end up being right outside International Place :)

[Keith P.]

How would you fit these routes onto ridiculously narrow streets like North (and at least parts of all the others)?

[spryscraper]

The first step, no matter what the vehicle, is transit vehicle priority at every intersection. I think this would go a long way in cutting down travel times. Transit-only lanes, rail lines, or overhead wiring would also help if feasible.

[Spitfire75]

I don't think you know how bad North St is at rush hour. I've seen it bumper-to-bumper light-to-light. I think the only way you could put a track there is elevated.

[hfx_chris]

Agreed, there's just some areas you can't do anything...

[spryscraper]

If you think about it though, wouldn't transit priority work here? Even if traffic is bumper-to bumper, as long as the lights ahead of the transit vehicle are green couldn't it be reasonably expected to keep moving at a steady pace?

[hfx_chris]

How? It's two lanes; you can't have bus-only lanes to jump ahead of the queues, so the best you could do would be to hold the green light for an extra minute or two until the bus gets through - but don't forget traffic would probably be backed up on the opposite side of the intersection anyway.

[reddog794]

You could use a page from Bogotá's book, and close the streets at peak hours. Where we are not nearly as big, it could take less time to get adjusted.

[crossroad]

Not much talk on this lately...

Will HRM get Rapid Transit any time soon? Or even a feasibility study?

Are we a bit too content with the status quo? Just wondering...

Thoughts?

[Dmajackson]

I'm starting to warm up to the idea of rail transit. My idea is far fetched but I think it would work well.

The "New Bridge" that might be required would instead be a tunnel with a LRT line and a bus lane.

On the Dartmouth side the rail would connect to the main line and travel north to stops at NSCC Waterfront, Alderney Landing, Nivens Ave (Wyse Road area), the newly reconstructed Shannon Park, and Burnside.

On the Halifax side the Westin/VIA Terminal would remain crucial and along the rail cut turned tunnel stops would be constructed at Robie St, South @ Oxford, Quinpool (Flynn Park), Mumford, and the Village.

From the Peninsula a new LRT line and a trail would be built parallel to the CN line to Fairview. Stops along this new route would be built at the Mount, Birch Cove Terminal (Fast Ferry), Mill Cove (Fast Ferry), Sunnyside and Rocky Lake.

At Rocky Lake a new line would stretch across the eastern shores of Anderson Lake and connect onto the Dartmouth Line completing the loop around the Harbour.

[Keith P.]

This doesn't really belong here, but I couldn't figure out a better place for it.

Allnovascotia.com reported yesterday that HRM is making a bid for the abandoned CN rail ROW from Joe Howe to Lakeside. This is the same ROW they turned down last year when offered it for the bargain price of $3.3 million by CN. Apparently they are now in negotiations for it, hoping to get it at a better price. There was discussion in the article that part of it (the end out towards Lakeside) would become a trail, projected to be paved but off-limits to 4-wheelers. The section parallel to Joe Howe Dr would be used for street widening, bus pullover, turning lanes, etc (HALLELUJAH!!!) while Loblaws and other adjacent property owners are interested in picking up the nearby bits of it for expansion.

It is too bad that it won't apparently get used for rail transit, but at least some of these uses make sense.

[Dmajackson]

Allnovascotia.com reported yesterday that HRM is making a bid for the abandoned CN rail ROW from Joe Howe to Lakeside. This is the same ROW they turned down last year when offered it for the bargain price of $3.3 million by CN. Apparently they are now in negotiations for it, hoping to get it at a better price. There was discussion in the article that part of it (the end out towards Lakeside) would become a trail, projected to be paved but off-limits to 4-wheelers. The section parallel to Joe Howe Dr would be used for street widening, bus pullover, turning lanes, etc (HALLELUJAH!!!) while Loblaws and other adjacent property owners are interested in picking up the nearby bits of it for expansion.

Well that makes perfect sense to me. Out by Lakeside where the rail tracks end it turns into the BLT Trail that goes out past Tantallon. On Joe Howe one thing HRM really needs to fix is the random unmarked Dutch Village turning lane. Coming off the highway theres two turning lanes but I'm still yet to see a sign telling people the left lane goes onto Dutch Village.

It's not mentioned in the article so I really hope HRM considers installing a bus turning lane/light at Scot Ave.

There's so many upsides to this project. If tied in with a Joe Howe/Bedford Highway Interchange make-over and a Bayers Road widening it would virtually eliminate most of the traffic coming off of the peninsula via public transit.

One upside for the trail part except for the obvious benefit of connecting the suburbs to the peninsula is the possibility of connecting this to the Greenway if it ever makes it this far down the rail-cut.

EDIT: I added the spur to my map and just FYI the Spur (the possible trail part) is 6.25km long!

[Keith P.]

On Joe Howe one thing HRM really needs to fix is the random unmarked Dutch Village turning lane. Coming off the highway theres two turning lanes but I'm still yet to see a sign telling people the left lane goes onto Dutch Village.

It's not mentioned in the article so I really hope HRM considers installing a bus turning lane/light at Scot Ave.


There need to be bus pullover lanes all along the west side of Joe Howe. The Scot St change you described makes sense too, though why buses still use Scot St and thus have to make that turn is a mystery to me. It may have made sense when the Bayers Rd shopping center was in business, but it makes little sense these days and those routes need to be reexamined.

Further up Joe Howe there is a desperate need to have a dedicated right turen ramp ontot he 102. Traffic bottlenecks there because of clueless drivers who take up the right lane but are going straight and stop at the lights, blocking the intersection.

[Dmajackson]

There need to be bus pullover lanes all along the west side of Joe Howe. The Scot St change you described makes sense too, though why buses still use Scot St and thus have to make that turn is a mystery to me. It may have made sense when the Bayers Rd shopping center was in business, but it makes little sense these days and those routes need to be reexamined.

I think it might have to do with the park 'n ride in the back of the Village. Also a fair number of people use that terminal a day and with the new office building and Capital Health centre I doubt they'll move the terminal anytime soon. The one thing they really need is a stoplight at Desmond and Bayers Road equipped with transit sensors.

[hfx_chris]

The one thing they really need is a stoplight at Desmond and Bayers Road equipped with transit sensors.
Hell yeah. I can't tell you how many times I've sat there on a bus in heavy traffic waiting for enough of a break that we could get across to the ramp...

[Dmajackson]

The Chronicle Herald held a poll yesterday about rail transit;

Do you think rail service is a practical way to help ease traffic congestion in HRM?
Total Votes Received: 2444
Yes 1893 77 %
No 369 15 %
Don't know 182 7 %

[someone123]

What I really think the city needs to do is simply build a small "demonstration" light rail line to serve part of the peninsula. It would be small electric or hybrid trains suitable to operate as streetcars, but they could also be given their own ROW at points. It could be something like a couple of kilometres just to connect Dalhousie to the downtown, or a kind of downtown "shuttle" service. People would see how much better rail service is and there would be political will to then slowly begin building a real network to serve the city.

A short tunnel connecting the ferry terminal (maybe a new one that handles the Bedford Ferry) with Barrington Street and Spring Garden Road would be very useful. Tunnels are expensive but we'd be talking about 1-2 km and it would be a permanently useful piece of city infrastructure. The city could also tie it in with electrical, water, and sewage (though a bit late for that..) infrastructure improvements for the downtown. Other future parts of a streetcar-like light rail system could simply run at-grade and be extended as needed (Barrington-Inglis for South End and SMU, Agricola or Gottingen for North End, and a West End line that would at first go to Chebucto Terminal and eventually could serve Clayton Park). The system would start out with only a couple of trains.

[hfx_chris]

The problem though, is that HRM is completely anti-rail when it comes to transit. They even produced an anti-rail piece of propaganda on their website, calling it an "information sheet"
http://www.halifax.ca/metrotransit/CommuterRail2.html

[hfx_chris]

I was reading through those comments on the Herald site. Mostly positive, but I think there's a lot of confusion surrounding rail-based transit.

There's commuter rail, which travels larger distances. This sort of system would be idea to connect Halifax with nearby towns like Windsor or Truro, or possibly beyond if demand existed. Canadian examples of commuter rail systems would be GO Transit in the Toronto area, and AMT in the Montreal area. These typically use standard diesel engines and have limited stops, and would not operate through city streets.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/Go_Train_044.jpg

Light rail (LRT) feature smaller, often more streamlined trains. They handle fewer passengers, but would be for shorter distances. In the Halifax area they could be used to service areas like Bedford, Sackville or Beaver Bank. Stops tend to be more frequent, and they usually can (and do often) operate through downtown streets. Can be either diesel or electric, or both!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/Ac.newtram1.jpg.JPG

Trams/streetcars are much smaller, usually only one car, and travel almost exclusively in the downtown area, with limited rights of way. This would be the type of system Halifax once ran with their Birney cars. These are usually electrified.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f0/TorontoTram1.jpg/800px-TorontoTram1.jpg

Rapid transit is essentially the fancy word for subway. Typically underground, fast and long.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Taipei_MRT_Shimen_station.jpg/800px-Taipei_MRT_Shimen_station.jpg

Personally, I'm a big fan of light rail (LRT). I maintain that the perfect system for Halifax right now would have it use the rail cut to enter downtown, with a downtown loop possibly consisting of Granville and Hollis, or the waterfront area, connecting to a new major transit terminal at the newly reclaimed Cogswell interchange site (with a connection to the ferry terminal), heading out towards Bedford, Windsor Junction and Beaverbank. Or, to keep it even smaller to start, it could go out along the 102 to a large park and ride lot at the 102/103 interchange.
I'm not a fan of streetcars/trams, because you probably wouldn't use them to go that sort of distance, and commuter rail honestly wouldn't be able to go any farther than the VIA rail station, necessitating a transfer to bus at that point.

Check out the Wikipedia article on light rail in North America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail_in_North_America) for some more great pictures of essentially the sort of service I'm in favor of.

[Spitfire75]

That's a lot of good info. Agreed that LRT would be perfect for HRM.
If we had an LRT like the one pictured above, I wouldn't mind riding it to work at all. We would get cars off the road and a boost to development around the corridor. Win/win.

[Dmajackson]

I would also agree LRT is the best choice.

The one thing I think would be cool would be to create a "Super-terminal" in Bedford around Mill Cove. Along with the ferry terminal a train terminal and a bus terminal could easily be installed. Trains could run the rail-cut up the Basin with stops at Birch Cove and Mill Cove then cut up into Fall River.

If a stop were created at Sunnyside I'd defenitely use it. The train tracks are closer then a bus stop to my house.

[someone123]

The Toronto streetcar system actually has stretches with dedicate ROWs and even underground sections.

The cars look different from modern LRT but that is partly just because they are dated. In practice, the distinction between light rail and streetcars is pretty meaningless, and it makes sense to tailor different parts of a light rail system to the surroundings - frequent stops downtown and less in lower density areas.

[hfx_chris]

The Toronto streetcar system actually has stretches with dedicate ROWs and even underground sections.
Oh I know, but for the most part streetcars travel exclusively on city streets. Even Halifax's tramcar system had a couple of exclusive rights of way. No underground sections, mind you :P

The cars look different from modern LRT but that is partly just because they are dated. In practice, the distinction between light rail and streetcars is pretty meaningless, and it makes sense to tailor different parts of a light rail system to the surroundings - frequent stops downtown and less in lower density areas.
I agree the line between streetcar and LRT is more blurred than any of the other modes I mentioned, and that any system would have to be tailored to the specific needs of the city. That's why what I wrote was just typical of those modes of transit.

[pnightingale]

The problem though, is that HRM is completely anti-rail when it comes to transit. They even produced an anti-rail piece of propaganda on their website, calling it an "information sheet"
http://www.halifax.ca/metrotransit/CommuterRail2.html

In their propaganda sheet they state that no city under 1,000,000 has been able to justify an LRT line. But Edmonton opened their LRT when they had well under a million. It was opened along with the Commonwealth Games... Seems a lot of improvements can come in a city when they host a major event like that.

Didn't Halifax have a Commonwealth Games bid? Oh right.... Now I remember....

[hfx_chris]

:D

Hey, maybe we can get something with the Canada Winter Games! Like a couple extra buses... :P

[Barrington south]

The problem though, is that HRM is completely anti-rail when it comes to transit. They even produced an anti-rail piece of propaganda on their website, calling it an "information sheet"
http://www.halifax.ca/metrotransit/CommuterRail2.html

lol,this "information sheet" sounds like it came straight off the desk of the bus manufacturers

[spryscraper]

An article from this week's coast... it's good to hear people starting to talk seriously about this, and if the tracks are just paved over why not dig them up? It's also interesting that the planning department has spoken out so much against "rail transit" and yet admit to have not even really looked at streetcars. What a city we live in.



Streetcar desires
We used to have trams in Halifax. We used to make them here, too. Who wouldn't want to ride the rails again?
by Chris Benjamin

"We can't do the same things and use the same excuses that cars and roads work well," says Patrick Klassen, a graduate student at Dalhousie's School of Planning. He's one of several students making an old idea new again: a Halifax Tram system.

"We haven't considered streetcars here per se," HRM transit planning specialist Brian Taylor acknowledges. Trams, or streetcars, are outside Halifax's box. It wasn't always so.

"We had trams here until the 1960s," notes Larry Hughes, an engineering professor at Dal. "They were fairly extensive; they went all the way to West End Mall."

Kathy Yeats, a Haligonian studying planning in Vancouver, offers another explanation for the streetcar's demise. "We used to make them locally, but General Motors muscled their way onto the scene in the '50s." She is referring to the Great American streetcar scandal, in which National Lines bought out transit systems across the continent, replacing streetcars with General Motors' buses and paving the way for car dependency.

We've relied on petroleum-powered buses and cars ever since. They have major disadvantages to the electric trolley. Yeats observes, "In Vancouver I can predict where the streetcars go by way of the wires overhead. There's a sense of permanence that comes with this level of built infrastructure. It encourages people to rely on it." The streetcars themselves last twice as long as buses.

Their permanence makes trams a starting point for sound urban development. In an independent research report, Klassen writes, "By providing an efficient, high capacity and reliable form of transit, with a sense of permanence, a streetcar system has the potential to attract residents and investment, increase transit ridership and stimulate core area business and pedestrian activity."

He examined modern streetcar systems in mid-sized cities in France, Germany and the United States, and concludes that the peninsula's population can support a tram, and that such a system would encourage the kind of development city planners are aiming for.

"The benefits are mostly economic," he argues. "A tram system catalyzes development along routes. It targets investment downtown." This combats sprawl and reinvigorates urban cores. Klassen notes that Portland's tram system has spun-off more than $3 billion in private investment.

A permanent, predictable streetcar infrastructure replaces complicated destination-based bus routes with a hub-and-spoke model. The hub is where streetcars begin their routes. In every city where this is the case, development is focused on the hub. In the process, bus congestion and emissions are eliminated.

"The buses themselves cause congestion," says Troy Scott, a Dartmouth architect, but once a starry-eyed Dalhousie grad student himself. His thesis focused on using existing and new rail infrastructure in and around Halifax. His study indicates that creating a streetcar loop on the peninsula could "reduce the number of buses from 33 to 11, alleviate congestion, and increase ridership."

Scott adds heritage to the list of streetcar advantages. "Why not bring back a historic aspect of Halifax right in Historic Properties?" he wonders. "I worked out what all the old routing was. The tracks are still in the road, paved over." New routes could also be added using ultra-light tracks, which don't require overhead wires and avoid disturbing pipes.

"Streetcars the world over are celebrated icons of city life," Yeats adds. "They are the town clocks and cathedrals of the transportation world and evoke warm feelings of community and home."

Despite the arguments for a Halifax tram system, it may be an idea ahead of its time, for two reasons: power and size.

"Streetcars aren't much good if Nova Scotia has to burn coal from South America to power them," Yeats says. "This technology would have to come with more renewable---and ethical---energy sources." Yet, she argues, electric vehicles allow a greater flexibility for power sources. In time, the power can come from wind, hydro, maybe even tidal or geothermal. "Buses only take petrol. If that fails us we're screwed," she says.

Should Halifax get trollified? Let me know at chrisb@thecoast.ca.

[pnightingale]

As much as I would love to see street cars in Halifax, I don't think funding would ever come through for it. Streetcars, if running with traffic, would face the same congestion and would not improve travel time. Therefore I think council would say it was not a worth while investment and that would be that. And just because the tracks are buried under the pavement doesn't mean they are in usable condition. It would require so much money to get a useful system put in place.

While I think that would be a very good investment, somehow I don't think council would see it that way. Fact of the matter is people like trains more than buses, and people would want to ride them. But council can't see the big picture. All they see is how much it will cost, and they don't think about the long term benefits.

The only way I can see this improving travel time is if they did something like run a southbound track on Hollis St and eliminate on street parking so that they wouldn't have to share the road with vehicle traffic, and did the same with a northbound track on Lower Water St. When they built the third bridge, they could even include tracks and extend the system into Dartmouth.

But if they were going to eliminate parking and make a transit only lane, they would probably just do it for buses and call it a day. It's a shame we can't have nice things here. Maybe with the next council.

[worldlyhaligonian]

We all know the real reason council is against rail...

I just read that propaganda and it is the biggest b/s I have ever heard. We could definitely do LRT within 15 years if it was well planned and thought out... hence this could never be accomplished by the current leadership and their response is that it isn't feasible.

[Keith P.]

There are a few inaccuracies in that article. We didn't have tramcars here until the 1960s. The last rail-based tramcars ran here until 1949, when they were replaced with Brill electric coaches or trolleys, which were rubber-tired -- essentially electric buses. Those ran until 1969, when the system was taken over by the city and they began using GM diesel buses.

I don't know where the old tramcars (called Birneys) were made, but I do know that the Brill coaches were not made locally.

The problem with the trolley/tram concept is that they are by necessity limited in their range since you need lines to let them go anywhere. If you are limiting them to a relatively small area then perhaps they would be OK, but people would always need to transfer to a bus or other mode to get them to their final destination. Not insurmountable, but limiting. I just don't see much advantage to them.

[hfx_chris]

...if the tracks are just paved over why not dig them up?
IF they were still there, which I know they were removed in most places (however I have no doubt they may still exist in others), they would be beyond usable condition. Keep in mind they would not only be over 60 years old, but would have been buried that whole time. They were already in rough shape when the tram car system was retired, that was one of the deciding factors to move away from rail towards trolley coaches.

"We can't do the same things and use the same excuses that cars and roads work well," says Patrick Klassen, a graduate student at Dalhousie's School of Planning. He's one of several students making an old idea new again: a Halifax Tram system.

"We haven't considered streetcars here per se," HRM transit planning specialist Brian Taylor acknowledges.
Halifax doesn't need a tram system. Trolley coaches yes, more maneuverable, but being fixed to a set of rails on today's downtown streets just isn't practical. I know it works in other cities, but Halifax isn't other cities. Trolley coaches can drop off and pickup at the curb, with trams you have to walk into the street to get on/off.

"We had trams here until the 1960s," notes Larry Hughes, an engineering professor at Dal. "They were fairly extensive; they went all the way to West End Mall."
Probably just being picky here.. but we had tram cars until 1949, trolley coaches until 1969...

Kathy Yeats, a Haligonian studying planning in Vancouver, offers another explanation for the streetcar's demise. "We used to make them locally, but General Motors muscled their way onto the scene in the '50s." She is referring to the Great American streetcar scandal, in which National Lines bought out transit systems across the continent, replacing streetcars with General Motors' buses and paving the way for car dependency.
I was wondering how long it would be before the GM streetcar conspiracy was brought up... Personally I never bought into that, buses were already rising in popularity, and with cities' streetcar/trolley systems aging, it seemed the practical thing to do at the time.

A permanent, predictable streetcar infrastructure replaces complicated destination-based bus routes with a hub-and-spoke model. The hub is where streetcars begin their routes. In every city where this is the case, development is focused on the hub. In the process, bus congestion and emissions are eliminated.
All comes down to planning, a bus system can be planned in a similar fashion, this isn't something unique to electrified systems. The only real benefit I agree with him on is street-level pollution and appeal.

"The buses themselves cause congestion," says Troy Scott, a Dartmouth architect, but once a starry-eyed Dalhousie grad student himself. His thesis focused on using existing and new rail infrastructure in and around Halifax. His study indicates that creating a streetcar loop on the peninsula could "reduce the number of buses from 33 to 11, alleviate congestion, and increase ridership."
The buses cause congestion? Anything that shares the road is going to contribute to (not cause) congestion. I'm also curious to know where he got these figures (33 and 11) from...

"Streetcars the world over are celebrated icons of city life," Yeats adds. "They are the town clocks and cathedrals of the transportation world and evoke warm feelings of community and home."
Agreed with him there, it all comes down to perception, and streetcars/trolley coaches to some people just look better and more appealing. A system like that would become the centerpiece of transportation on the peninsula.

"Buses only take petrol. If that fails us we're screwed," she says.
I assume "petrol" means petroleum products... and not just gas or diesel. They make hybrid diesel/electric buses, they've got ones that burn compressed natural gas, hell Halifax used to have a couple buses running on propane as part of a pilot project.

[hfx_chris]

There are a few inaccuracies in that article. We didn't have tramcars here until the 1960s. The last rail-based tramcars ran here until 1949, when they were replaced with Brill electric coaches or trolleys, which were rubber-tired -- essentially electric buses. Those ran until 1969, when the system was taken over by the city and they began using GM diesel buses.

I don't know where the old tramcars (called Birneys) were made, but I do know that the Brill coaches were not made locally.
Good points. The Brill/CanCar trolleys were manufactured in Thunder Bay. I can't remember exactly where the Birneys were manufactured, but definitely not local. They may be referring to the tram cars that the Birneys replaced, they were produced in the province.

[pnightingale]

I can't remember exactly where the Birneys were manufactured, but definitely not local.

Of the 86 Birneys that Halifax had, 62 of them were purchased second hand, as most cities didn't like them. The original order of 24 Birneys was in 1923 from the American Car Company. So yes, not local.

[hfx_chris]

Yes I know that, but I don't remember where they were manufactured. As in, city... and I can't find any of my reference books, they're in storage somewhere :(

And it's not that most cities didn't like them, the Birney was one of the most popular tram car on the market, but cities/companies were abandoning their systems in favor of trolleys or buses. Halifax/NSLP didn't have the money to buy new ones, the war more than doubled ridership, so they sought out as many second hand units as they could get their hands on.

[someone123]

Yeah, a lot of the arguments in the article just don't make much sense. NSP burns coal, so it's no better than diesel buses? What?! The coal is cheaper and more stable in terms of supply, it is easy to add any kind of power plant to the electric grid, the big power plants are much more efficient and much cleaner than small engines (so coal is not worse..), and emissions aren't produced at ground level on busy city streets.

Even with the current power situation in NS, from an energy/cost/cleanliness perspective it is a huge win to have electric buses or trams.

I agree with what others are saying about congestion and problems with loading. The benefit of streetcars over trolleybuses is fairly minimal - they are a little more comfortable.

It makes sense to go with rail if you have a dedicated ROW for a big part of a route, but not if it is just mixed in with traffic.

I would argue that it makes a lot of sense for the city to install some electric bus routes NOW in core areas. It would save them on fuel as prices go up in the future, create some permanent infrastructure to shape development patterns, and increase desirability of both the buses themselves and nearby areas since electrics are (dramatically) cleaner and quieter. They should start working on ways for transit vehicles to avoid traffic bottlenecks in the cities with an aim to assemble a meaningful dedicated transit right of way through the city, at which point they can start to look at light rail.

[Nouvellecosse]

I'm definitely a supporter of electric trolley buses, and it seems the article is including them as interchangeable with streetcars judging from the way it mentions Vancouver.

[c@taract_soulj@h]

Who needs a million stops downtown for light rail? The core isn't immense but it has much density to it. Say 3-4 stops downtown. One @ Purdys (or a rail terminal in place of the Cogswell) as mentioned above, another say on Sackville St. and the third ending at the Via Station. Seeing as much of downtown's built on a hill, run it along Barrington or Lower Water. It'd be hard to go underground and would make traffic downtown a bloody nightmare but it'd make the best sense IMO. As for metro, Dartmouth, Bedford and Sackville I'd imagine would be easy to map out for a line. For the record, I've never been to Halifax (except the airport) but I've studied the area enough as of late so planning/pipe-dreaming looks fun to do for the HRM.

[c@taract_soulj@h]

I'm definitely a supporter of electric trolley buses, and it seems the article is including them as interchangeable with streetcars judging from the way it mentions Vancouver.

When I think of trolleybusses, I think of Vancouver lol...we used to have them in Hamilton but our one-way streets weren't good for the overhead wires :rolleyes:

[cormiermax]

Hate to bring up an old thread but, Any talk of this lately?

[planarchy]

Take some vision, add a bit of political will, throw in a dash of common sense, and you might solve some traffic woes

The Chronicle Herald / By MURRAY METHERALL
Sun. Jan 3 - 4:45 AM


IMAGINE a commuter train from Windsor Junction gliding through Halifax’s south-end rail cut on its way to the downtown Via station.

Or a fast ferry from Bedford sliding into a new terminal next to the waterfront casino.

Or an express bus travelling a lane of its own.

How best to get to work: Commuters in all cities ask that question every day. It’s also being asked by municipal leaders trying to figure out how to spend federal infrastructure dollars on transit.

Vancouver plans to build new light rail lines and buy 1,500 buses by 2012, and Ottawa is considering citywide rail. Halifax once had dayliner trains running into town from Sydney and the Annapolis Valley. The city now is looking to more buses and fast ferries to ease congestion.

Halifax could use the help. Its heart is a busy peninsula that takes in traffic from two bridges and a few main arteries every morning and pumps it out again before sundown. Each day commuters take about 20,000 cars and other vehicles to jobs downtown, to universities, hospitals or DND. Getting them out of their cars and onto mass transit will be vital as employment downtown and elsewhere continues to grow.

At first glance, establishing a commuter rail service seems to be a long shot. Metro Transit’s website has a graph plunging convincingly down the page showing Halifax to be the 143rd largest city in North America. The smallest city to have commuter rail — Edmonton — is 80 spots above us on the graph.

A fast ferry to Halifax is an exciting idea — 15 minutes from Bedford to downtown across the world’s second-largest natural harbour. Mayor Peter Kelly, on board for a demonstration ride in 2005, had a less romantic view.

"Look out there," he said. "We don’t have to pave it; we don’t have to salt it; we don’t have to plow it."

Yet the fast-ferry proposal for Halifax has been shelved for another year. Why?

Is it price? First proposed at $30 million, it’s been trimmed to $20 million with smaller vessels.

Is it who will pay? Thirteen million dollars may come from Ottawa. Perhaps the newly elected, ostensibly greener provincial government may step up.

Is the project too Bedford-centric? In fact, city planners say high-speed ferry service could eventually be expanded to Purcells Cove, Eastern Passage, and Burnside.

BUSINESS SENSE
What about the business case?

Potential shipbuilding jobs are part of the answer, says Brian Taylor, HRM fast-ferry project co-ordinator. Expressions of interest have been solicited for the construction of two vessels that if built here could see offshore know-how partnered with local shipbuilding skills, giving local industry a market niche in fast-ferry technology.

Corporate Research Associates surveyed HRM commuters in 2009 about what public transit improvements they’d like to see. More than half wanted improved bus service, one in 10 wanted a fast ferry and two in 10 wanted to see a light rail service.

If projected ridership for the fast ferry can be achieved with the fares proposed (perhaps $4), operating expenses will be covered. Buses operate at a deficit.

What about the business case for rail?

In theory commuter rail would carry more people, covering a broader area with more pickup points. Instead of boarding at a single ferry terminal in Mill Cove, rail commuters could choose from as many as five stations — at Beaverbank Road, Cobequid Road, Bedford Industrial Park, Mill Cove and Rockingham. While the ferry serves two employment destinations — downtown and the south end of the Dockyard — the train could stop at Armdale/Mumford Road, serving the northwest peninsula shopping centres, Dalhousie/Saint Mary’s, serving peninsula-south universities, and the train station on Hollis Street, with a link to the downtown core via shuttle bus.

But getting people to ditch the car will take more than a sound business case. Any alternative will have to be convenient.

For rail passengers heading downtown, there would have to be a shuttle service, adding about 10 minutes to the commute. This is on top of the 26 minutes of travel time from Cobequid Road to the Hollis Street Via Rail station, including stops, according to a 1996 commuter rail feasibility study done for the Metropolitan Authority.

One problem: Neither ferry nor train would directly reach the other big employment destination on the peninsula — the hospitals. Would commuters coming into town be willing to transfer and jump on a shuttle bus? That would add more time to their commute, but how long do they sit in cars now at the five big chokepoints — Bedford Highway, Bayers Road, Armdale Rotary, and MacKay and Macdonald bridges?

Even if it takes longer, it may be worth passing over the driving to someone else. Getting to work by either mode — ferry or rail — could even save you money.

One study in 2006 looked at costs for two types of commuters — by car and fast ferry. Driving from Bedford’s Mill Cove to Purdy’s Wharf, including gas and parking, costs $226 per month. Taking the ferry with a $4 fare would cost about $160. With the same fare for the train, you’d save a few more dollars travelling from stations farther out like Cobequid Road, nearly twice the distance to downtown as from Mill Cove.

As other modes of transit expand, what’s in it for the economy?

One selling point is economic development, as stations are built for rail or terminals for bus or ferry. With stations springing up along the line, rail would attract private investment and the creation of commercial and retail space.

INFRASTRUCTURE IN PLACE
Commuter rail proponents have argued for years that it makes sense for Halifax because the infrastructure in an underused rail line is already in place.

Though down to one track along the south-end rail cut and beyond, there is both room and time to share this CN line with a commuter service. Unlike the waterway, to use it would not be free. It’s surprising a bottom-line company like CN, with the potential to make a dollar through track rental, has not thought of this before.

Well, it turns out they have.

The 1996 commuter rail study was commissioned by the Metropolitan Authority in response to a CN/Via proposal to the town and then-mayor Kelly of Bedford to establish a commuter rail service. One reason the proposal did not fly was the fee CN wanted to use their line and the amount Via Rail was charging to operate rail liners was considered too high.

But there’s another, more direct route to downtown Halifax. You’d have to replace a line that used to run along the harbour side of the peninsula.

Today the tracks stop at the CN intermodal yard under the MacKay bridge, but they used to run south along the waterfront below Barrington Street, past the shipyard to the south gate of the Dockyard. Getting off a train here, opposite the sewage treatment plant today, would make for a short walk to Purdy’s Wharf or Scotia Square. Mostly used now for parking, much of this right-of-way still exists, minus the rails.

TRAINS ARE AVAILABLE
What about equipment?

On a siding at Industrial Rail Services in Moncton sit 27 relics of the past: self-propelled Dayliners. IRS has a $1-million contract to refurbish rail cars for Via Rail and has plans to market these remanufactured rail liners to North American cities as light rail commuter vehicles.

They may not be the latest Bombardier design, but IRS vice-president Chris Evers points out that remanufacturing makes economic sense. It means gutting the stainless steel body and replacing the insides with a rebuilt truck, high-efficient diesel or hybrid engines, with new interiors and wheelchair access. This self-propelled train, unlike purely light-rail vehicles, is built to safety standards that allow it to mingle with freight traffic on main lines. Evers says the technology is available in our own region for a fraction of the cost of new equipment.

While two to three trains with three cars each might be needed to move the same number of commuters as two fast ferries, they would be less expensive to buy and run. Interest in using rail liners to haul commuters has come from cities in the U.S.

A long-proposed service from downtown Toronto to Pearson Airport calls for using recycled rail liners.

For a town like Halifax, imprisoned by geography and struggling to form a sustainable transportation strategy and get people out of their cars, these options complement each other. Will population growth be able to support them all?

If the city had an agency in charge of overall transportation strategy, it might go a long way toward solving our traffic headaches.

Don Mills of Corporate Research advocates something he calls an HRM Transportation Authority, which he thinks would prevent piecemeal thinking on the issue, but will only come about through public pressure.

Murray Metherall lives and teaches in HRM and is interested insustainable transportation issues.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Methinks somebody has been reading our forum and incorporating our ideas into their articles. :gaah:

That survey data shows how little the average Haligonian even knows about public transportation and that the public needs to be educated.

I think that people don't know how good it is to live in other places without a car... too bad our city is being built around it. Viva la rail!!!!!

[-Harlington-]

i think we should have light rail and fast ferrys and better buses and everything, yay, and i know its gonna happen here :D :D :D :D

[-Harlington-]

aha, but really rail would be nice but the ferry idea is something that should have happened long ago
and rail could work great if the population was knowledgeable enough to support such break-throughs.

[eternallyme]

Water-based transport is the best solution for Halifax, given all its water in the area. Within the city, small tram lines would be good as well.

[Keith P.]

Water-based transport is the best solution for Halifax, given all its water in the area. Within the city, small tram lines would be good as well.

Could not disagree more on both counts. We need a rail-based solution.

[hfx_chris]

Methinks somebody has been reading our forum and incorporating our ideas into their articles.
I got that feeling too as I was reading it :cool:

Could not disagree more on both counts. We need a rail-based solution.Absolutely, however I have been warming up more and more lately to a downtown electric trolley coach (trackless) route. I've never been onboard the ferry idea, it just seems like such a huge cost for a relatively small catchment area. Rail from Windsor Jct on the other hand, that's a huge catchment area.

As for using refurbed Dayliner/RDC cars, I think it's a good starting point, however the biggest turnoff I have with these is that you'll never see them past the Via station. I think for this to be truly convenient, you need smaller cars (but still built to the proper safety levels to operate on the CN trackage along side freight - I'm sure it's possible) that can operate right through downtown, preferable to a new downtown terminal built on the Cogswell Interchange land. If Lower Water was made into a one-way street Northbound for the entire length, then I see no reason why rail couldn't operate in mixed traffic on L.Water (northbound) and Hollis (southbound) to Cogswell.

The author also brings up using the area on the other side of the peninsula, continued past Richmond to the sewage plant. Hell why not take that a step further and cross Upper Water to the Cogswell Interchange area. Then you're pretty much right there at Scotia Square.

Anyway, good to see this issue actually getting some additional time in the spotlight.

[someone123]

The heavy diesel trains would be fine for a commuter rail service with limited stops. As mentioned, you can't run those along regular streets.

One other issue with the existing routes is that they just don't serve very much. A proper system would go through the downtown, past the hospitals, serve Dalhousie and SMU, etc. This would require light rail with new tracks, but that is still pretty realistic given Halifax's size and budget.

[-Harlington-]

Oh, God its starting again.........:runaway:

[Dmajackson]

Just to throw some fuel into the fire;

This is an informal poll of course but the Chronicle Herald Question of the Day shows a 85% majority in favour of rail transit in HRM.

[beyeas]

Wow.

That article was one of the more well written pieces on public transport in Halifax that I have seen in a long time. Great job. I hope that the author keeps pounding the drum on this issue to keep it in the forefront of the public in the hopes that some politician picks it up.

[hfx_chris]

I think something like this would be perfect for Lower Water and Hollis Streets:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_Transit_Mall
Basically it's two one-way streets in Portland, one northbound the other south. The streets are both three-lane, with two of them designated as transit-only. Obviously that wouldn't quite work here, as both lanes would need to be maintained for cars, but the idea of making Lr Water one-way the entire length sounds good to me. Then there would be room to run light rail through downtown.

[Wishblade]

Halifax expected to study cost of commuter trains

Halifax regional council is expected to ask city staff to study the cost of a commuter train service into downtown Halifax.

The purpose is to settle the question about whether a service starting in a place like Truro or Stewiacke is economically feasible.

"I really think it is time when we are looking at spending millions of dollars on ferries, millions of dollars on buses and a billion dollars to do a third bridge someday maybe, why would we not want to, once and for all, have a study and put this issue to rest?" said Coun. Tim Outhit (Bedford).

The service would use existing train tracks and would be a "heavy-rail dayliner" rather than a light-rail service, said Mr. Outhit, who introduced the motion Tuesday at a meeting of committee of the whole.

He said he is tired of hearing that such a service is too costly when it appears that a cost study has never been done.

Mr. Outhit, Coun. Barry Dalrymple (Waverley-Fall River-Beaver Bank) and Coun. Peter Lund (Hammonds Plains-St. Margarets ) all told the committee meeting that they are inundated with questions from residents in their districts about why such a service isn’t being considered.

"We do get asked this constantly . . . and I would like to have some actual answers," said Mr. Dalyrmple, who noted that it wasn’t that long ago that his parents got a daily train to school each day.

"(The public wants) a better answer than that it is too expensive," said Mr. Lund.

The motion for staff to look at the costs of dayliner service came after a city staffer said that no opportunity exists for a light-rail commuter service into downtown Halifax. Regional council was expected to deal with the motion at its regular meeting Tuesday evening.

The train tracks are owned by CN and are designated for heavy freight trains.

Because of concerns about accidents, Transport Canada guidelines "prevent light-rail trains from using those (heavy-rail) corridors without a significant separation and barrier (between) them," said Dave McCusker, the municipality’s manager of strategic transportation planning

"There are cities in Canada who do run light rail in heavy-rail corridors, but they are able to achieve the type of separation that is required by Transport Canada regulations.

"Coming through Halifax and Halifax peninsular, there is simply isn’t enough land to separate them."

Dayliners are used by some commuters in Toronto and Vancouver but are not designed to make frequent stops, said Mr. McCusker, explaining why the municipality hasn’t done a cost study before.

"The acceleration of these vehicles is just not there to make it a quick trip. It would be very slow loading and unloading, and accelerating and decelerating," he said.

"That is why they are really appropriate for limited stops over longer distances, whereas (light) trains can make frequents stops."

[someone123]

I would like to know why there's never been a real study evaluating multiple options, including light rail and new right of ways. I've seen private reports done on light rail or streetcars and they never get any attention.

It definitely feels like the city has blinders on when it comes to this issue. I suspect it's a symptom of a few staffers having already decided what they want and then playing up the standard "this is Halifax, we can't have nice things" routine.

[fenwick16]

The GO transit system in the Toronto area would be heavy-rail dayliner (double-decker trains) and seems to be very popular. This shares the rail lines with freight trains.

Although the GO system doesn't make frequent stops like the subway system, it makes stops every few kilometers. If there are parking lots at each stop then people can park their car and take the train. The train doesn't need to run every hour throughout the day. It could just be 2 trains inbound in the morning and 2 trains outbound during the evening. In between, it could be a bus route. This is done on many of the Go routes in the Toronto area. I would think that it would be just as popular as the current ferry system between Halifax and Dartmouth but could handle Sackville/Bedford traffic.

I think that the HRM might want to consider the GO train system as a model for an HRM system.

[-Harlington-]

The thing about it not making alot of stops i dont think would work, it would further out but once you get closer to the core and not making much stops youd be losing a significant population base.
i dont know where they want to start from, i heard fall river sackville windsor junction and truro, but i think cobequid, bedford sunnyside, mill cove, chinatown, rockingham, fairview area, mumford,universities, and downtown are all possible stops.
i also think if they can use heavy tracks they should explore the possibility of other tracks like dartmouth or the abandoned tracks from fairview to springvale near chocolate lake to bayers lake and on to lakeside.

[MonctonRad]

The GO transit system in the Toronto area would be heavy-rail dayliner (double-decker trains) and seems to be very popular. This shares the rail lines with freight trains.

I think that the HRM might want to consider the GO train system as a model for an HRM system.

I agree absolutely. HRM should be looking at rail based transit at least as seriously as high speed ferries. The existing ferries across the harbour to Dartmouth are fine but I have reservations about the ferry to Bedford.

A GO Transit type of heavy duty double decker rail liner making infrequent stops along the existing rail right-of-way would be able to serve a more diverse area than the fast ferry and would be able to move more people.

Stops could include the VIA station, near Dalhousie University, Mumford, Fairview, Rockingham, Mill Cove, Bedford and points further afield. You could have seperate lines going as far out as Uniacke or Stewiacke. Each suburban station along the line could be equipped with a park-'n-ride. The possibilities are endless.

A system like this could serve as a catalyst for growth along the commuter corridor.

Let's do it!!! :tup:

[hfx_chris]

i dont know where they want to start from, i heard fall river sackville windsor junction and truro, but i think cobequid, bedford sunnyside, mill cove, chinatown, rockingham, fairview area, mumford,universities, and downtown are all possible stops.
That sounds very possible, I think the article just meant that they wouldn't be stopping every 200-500 metres.

The GO transit system in the Toronto area would be heavy-rail dayliner (double-decker trains) and seems to be very popular.
For the record, GO trains aren't dayliners, they're hauled by locomotives.

Anyway, the whole commuter rail is interesting, but I would still rather see them exploring a proper light rail solution. I see no reason why light rail vehicles couldn't operate here with proper scheduling so they're not operating with freight or heavy VIA trains.

[Dmajackson]

HRM staff looking at rail commuter service that could extend to Truro
Halifax News Net
By Yvette d’Entremont– The Weekly News

The dream of a commuter ferry service from Bedford to Halifax isn’t dead in the water, but a new idea is also trundling along the tracks.
Bedford Coun. Tim Outhit said there are actually “three balls currently in the air” when discussing commuter service from his community to downtown Halifax. The first is the private-venture hovercraft being proposed by businessman Jay Hasson. A presentation on that proposal was made before regional council on Jan. 26.
The second is HRM’s own fast ferry service, which has been an ongoing topic of discussion for about three years.
The most recent “ball” being tossed in the air isn’t a ferry service at all. Outhit said he passed a motion to have HRM staff look into the feasibility of a dayliner rail service.
“We’ve always known LRT (light rail) is too expensive, you need a larger population, you’d spend way too much laying the track, a subway or sky train idea just isn’t feasible,” Outhit explained. “But we really haven’t investigated what we could do with the existing CN tracks. It’s called heavy rail, and could possibly extend beyond HRM.”
What Outhit wants HRM staff to more closely examine in a study is the possibility of a dayliner service. He suggested it could perhaps stretch from as far afield as Truro before moving into several communities like Stewiacke, Elmsdale, Enfield, Sackville, Bedford and Rockingham before ending in Halifax.
“We’ve never done a study of this. There are probably enough people, especially if you look outside the HRM border,” he said.
The dayliner approach takes advantage of existing tracks, and Outhit said dayliners are already operating in Texas and on Vancouver Island. He said an added bonus is the municipality wouldn’t have to look far to secure a dayliner. They are being refurbished in Moncton.
“It’s a big old bus on rails basically, it’s heavy rail to go on existing CN tracks. My view is that in addition to looking at ferries and hovercraft, we should look at this,” Outhit said.
“I was immediately supported by Barry Dalrymple and Peter Lund and eventually everybody. We should also be looking at what we can do with existing infrastructure.”
Outhit said serious discussions and investigations into all three services are necessary because commuter congestion throughout HRM is going to continue growing as the population increases.

ydentremont@hfxnews.ca

[someone123]

It still annoys me that everything is discussed in the context of serving Bedford and then ideas like LRT are dismissed. Bedford doesn't have the population to support its own light rail line but there are definitely areas in the HRM which do have the densities - namely the peninsula and Clayton Park, which could have been much better if it were more sensibly designed.

I was just on the SkyTrain 20 minutes ago and it passes through many areas that are no more densely built up than parts of Halifax. It has about 70 km of track, some underground. I find it really hard to believe that Vancouver can support that, streetcars, electric trolleys, and a vastly superior bus service while Halifax can't even handle one small LRT line. Vancouver's larger for sure, but the other part of the puzzle is that it has more direction and better priorities. Vancouver's transit is far more expensive per capita and TransLink is in far worse financial shape than Metro Transit but they are nevertheless focused on expansion and providing high-level service. In Halifax the focus is on what can't be done and the system is so poor that the only ones who use it are the ones who have no other choice.

[hfx_chris]

“We’ve always known LRT (light rail) is too expensive, you need a larger population, you’d spend way too much laying the track...
:hell: Idiot. And here I thought Outhit had some promise.